how would you grade apple's lineup?

[jefhatfield]

if i had to give apple inc a grade for products, service, and frequency of new products, i would give them a "B" overall

by product, bringing price and features together:

12 inch ibook CD - B
12 inch ibook combo - A
14 inch ibook - C

tibook - B
12 inch powerbook - A
17 inch powerbook - B

emac - B

crt imac - C

15 inch imac - B
17 inch imac - A

entry ipod - A
bigger ipods - B

server - never seen one

jaguar - B

final cut pro - never seen it

appleworks - B

...as for other high tech companies,

i would give sony and nokia an A,
adobe, macromedia, and toshiba a B,
hp-compaq, dell, microsoft, cisco, and sun a C,
and sbc/pacbell, e-machines, motorola, and ibm a D

and sometimes, some of the D companies are a big fat F as is microsoft from time to time;)

[jefhatfield]

ok, i get it!!

nobody likes this post because it's not cute...he he

apple gets 4 little mice out of a possible 5 mice...at least for this quarter

give me a 970, apple...and i will give you that 5th mouse:D

[bousozoku]

Apple deserves a lot of credit for doing the best with what they have. The machines seem well designed and perform well for what they are.

In the real world, comparison is inevitable. Design is great, execution important, but performance says a lot and there's not a lot of that at home at Apple. Battery life is the one thing that saves their laptop sales. You can't take a machine comparable to a PowerBook and edit video in the middle of nowhere on anything else for much more than minimal time. The PPC's lack of speed and economy have paid off.

Quality B
Design A
Desktop value D
Laptop value B
Operating Systems B
Other software A
Performance is too low to rate.
Developer relations are too low to rate.
Arrogance is too high to rate.

[jefhatfield]

wow, thanks...someone answered this lonely thread;)

who would you give an A to for quality?

[Weirdwolf]

Hmmm... interesting topic...

Quality/Durability: A
Usefulness: A
Availability: D
User-friendliness: B
Software: B
Software availability: D


To me, Apple's biggest problem is that they are still too pricey, and not widely available. In my area, there is only ONE store that carries Apple products (CPUs or otherwise) within a 150mile radisu of where I live and that's CompUSA, fortunately only 30 miles from here. They are also the only Apple certified repair center around here too. Apple's not done well at all in the PR department. Everytime someone asks me what kind of computer I own, I say with pride "a Mac", but it disappoints me when they return a look of horror to me. I generally disregard this 'look' anyway, for many people I have met that 'hate' Macs are also very ignorant of them and 'hate' them based on ignorance. A few that I have asked why they hate Macs state "You can't do anything with a Mac" to which I reply "Well, what are you trying to do", they answer and I'll fortify the fact you can do it--maybe not in the same way as on a PC but you can. How did Apple get to have such a poor standing in the public's eye? Well, I'm sure there are many reasons, but a few friends of mine that do like Macs but won't get one state the reason as to why they won't for the simple reason that 'why would they want to spend $1300 on a Mac when they can get an eMachine at Wal*Mart for $500, printer included that does all they really need it to do?'. Sure you can get an eMac now for around 700 bones, but it's notwithstanding that while Apple does have a quality machine (IMO) they simple can't, or refuse, to compete with PCs in price. People won't buy Macs because they're too pricey to take the risk on because they're unfamiliar with the OS. It's why I think the "Switch" commercials from Apple were such a failure (that, and they were stupid for the most part), because the price of a Mac does not entice someone to 'take that leap of faith' that it requires from a longtime PC user. Much of the population (at least around me) simply can't afford a Mac and give 'em a whirl. Heck, I barely am able to pay for this middle model iMac I'm on now, let alone one that can make DVDs like I want. I work my butt off every day, and still live paycheck to paycheck. I love Macs to death, wouldn't dream of wanting a PC. However, put both of those statements together and it doesn't necessarily work out. :(

[DakotaGuy]

Why would you give IBM a D? They seem to be making excellent progress on the PPC970.

[bousozoku]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
wow, thanks...someone answered this lonely thread;)

who would you give an A to for quality?

IBM's big machine people, but then, you pay for that quality with big numbers.

[Kwyjibo]

i woudl give appleworks a d or F personally but thats just me and my lvoe of familiairty. hmm you can't really grade the 20gb ipod properly unless you lvoe music and have aprrox 15 GBs so far all in the size of a card of decks so i give that an A. i woudl also grade the all white iBook down to a c or D they just don't seem right to me.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
Why would you give IBM a D? They seem to be making excellent progress on the PPC970.

as for ibm the company that gives us home based gear...it's really a bummer that they took their stuff off the retail shelves

and while some of their laptop models are great, their prices have not kept in pace with dell and hp/compaq...plus those other two pc makers adopt new technologies faster for their home computing gear

the 970 is great...then where is it? and why is apple still with motorola?

there are a few things that can happen then i will up ibm's grade

when G4 first came out, i would have given motorola an A, but since their pace has been somewhat slow over the years, they are not an A company in my eyes

[shadowfax]

why a B for OS X.2? it seems to me that it's at least an A-. i don't think you guys have spent enough time around other operating systems, guys :p

[bousozoku]

Originally posted by Shadowfax
why a B for OS X.2? it seems to me that it's at least an A-. i don't think you guys have spent enough time around other operating systems, guys :p

I was being generous too.

Let's see. I've dealt with various machines since the early 1980s. Yes, I've spent enough time around other operating systems.

Mac OS X is pretty. It mostly works. I don't have to set memory allocations.

Even without the 3 kernel panics I've had in the last 3 weeks, it's not so great.

From 10.2 to 10.2.3, I couldn't use my Epson SC900. When 10.2.4 arrived, my printer magically worked again with no changes from Epson.

My MicroTech dual card reader still doesn't work with 10.2.x even after a new driver.

Apple has a lot of plans and it's doing better than IBM did with OS/2, but hardware support is still problematic.

I really like it, but after 3 years, I'm a little impatient for things to get going.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by bousozoku
I was being generous too.

Let's see. I've dealt with various machines since the early 1980s. Yes, I've spent enough time around other operating systems.

Mac OS X is pretty. It mostly works. I don't have to set memory allocations.

Even without the 3 kernel panics I've had in the last 3 weeks, it's not so great.

From 10.2 to 10.2.3, I couldn't use my Epson SC900. When 10.2.4 arrived, my printer magically worked again with no changes from Epson.

My MicroTech dual card reader still doesn't work with 10.2.x even after a new driver.

Apple has a lot of plans and it's doing better than IBM did with OS/2, but hardware support is still problematic.

I really like it, but after 3 years, I'm a little impatient for things to get going. you know, when i ran XDarwin and KDE from unstable, my system crashed like all hell. since then, i have been getting 3-4 week uptimes, and at the end of those, it never crashes. one time my DVD player was acting slightly funny, and last time it was because my power supply went to hell... i've been really impressed with their hardware support. i mean, be realistic, i think. they try to handle things their best, and i think it's good enough. i don't expect them to be microsoft.

what i was saying about looking around at OSes, is look around at what's available currently. OS X, i think, is the best. that's why it deserves an A. anyone who wants to give the best a B seems a bit fastidious to me.

[bousozoku]

Originally posted by Shadowfax
you know, when i ran XDarwin and KDE from unstable, my system crashed like all hell. since then, i have been getting 3-4 week uptimes, and at the end of those, it never crashes. one time my DVD player was acting slightly funny, and last time it was because my power supply went to hell... i've been really impressed with their hardware support. i mean, be realistic, i think. they try to handle things their best, and i think it's good enough. i don't expect them to be microsoft.

what i was saying about looking around at OSes, is look around at what's available currently. OS X, i think, is the best. that's why it deserves an A. anyone who wants to give the best a B seems a bit fastidious to me.

Fastidious isn't the worst thing I've been called. :D

Yes, if you look at Mac OS X in the light of WinXP, it looks somewhat better. Compared to BeOS, it looks pretty bad, except for applications available.

Apple has a long way to go.

[Computer_Phreak]

15 inch LDC iMac - B+
12 inch ibook ($999) - C-
iPod - A
OS X - A-

I liked my iMac, but it was a tad slow and had some quirks about it.

The ibook i have now is unbearably slow with more than one application open.

The iPod is kickass... but needs better/opensource firmware.

OS X doesn't have much going for it right now. Its pretty, and its interface is intuitive, but hardware support and little problems make it less of a great product. Its slow. Stability really isn't an issue anymore, since OS X, XP, and Linux are all about as stable (I'm talking about the OS, not programs). Usually only hardware failure will bring them down.

I think that Mac OS X could be hands-down the best OS out there if it could focus on:
1. Hardware and driver support.
2. Native Cocoa-like C++ language.
3. Journaling FS / Speedier
4. Fix of little bugs, inconsistencies, and errors.

[MacFan25]

Here's my opinion:


iBook 12" - A
iBook 14" - B

PowerBook 12" - A
PowerBook 15" - B
PowerBook 17" - B+

LCD iMac 15" - A
LCD iMac 17" - A

PowerMac - A

eMac - B+

iPod - A+

Apple's Design - A+

Apple's Innovation - A+

The iBook 12", I think is a great buy, however, I think that the 14" is not. The 12" PowerBook is an awesome little computer. That's why I gave it an A. The 15" PowerBook needs to be updated. This is why I gave it a B. I didn't give an A to the 17" PowerBook, because, I think that for how expensive it is, it should have a faster processor. I gave an A to the LCD iMacs, because they are nice computers, and because of the great design. PowerMac, I gave an A, because it is a fast, great computer. I gave a B+ to the eMac, because of the display issues. The iPod, I gave an A+. I think that it is a great MP3 player. It sets the standard for MP3 players. It is a bit pricey, but I think that it is a great value. I gave an A+ to Apple's design, and innovation, because the designing of all the Apple products is by far the best in the computer industry. Apple is definitley the most innovative computer company, also.

Now, I will stop my ranting. :D

[trebblekicked]

wha? double post. please delete.

[trebblekicked]

ibook 12- b+
ibook 14- c-

imac 15- b+
imac 17- a-

emac- b

alubook 12- a
tibook 15- a
alubook 17- a

pm dualies- b-
pm entry- c-

sxerve/raid- ?

fcp- a+
dvdsp2- a-
shake- ?
os x- a-

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by MacFan25
The iBook 12", I think is a great buy, however, I think that the 14" is not. The 12" PowerBook is an awesome little computer. That's why I gave it an A. The 15" PowerBook needs to be updated. This is why I gave it a B. I didn't give an A to the 17" PowerBook, because, I think that for how expensive it is, it should have a faster processor.
i take a pretty weighty issue with this. i disagree that the 12 inch powerbook is that great of a deal. it's 1800$, and in many ways is not much more powerfull than the 12 inch iBook that retails for like 1300$... that's a 500$ difference, and many would argue that the performance is not 500$ greater. now, you gave that an A... the 15 inch powerbook probably does need to be updated... but that doesn't mean it deserves a B. it's a great performer, and i think very much worth the 2300$ you'll have to drop to get one now. i think it deserves at least a B+ if not an A-. i don't have any issue with your rating of the 17 inch.

[trebblekicked]

i agree with shadowfax on the tibook. it's the perfect inbetween. the size is right, the price is right. the only things missing (AE, backlit keyboard, BT, FW800) are either of negotiable importance or available as accessories. You can't buy a better $2500.00 laptop than a tibook.

PS- does anyone remember the prices on tibooks pre-november? they were sickeningly high! i think the last i saw for the top of the line 800mhz was $3800.00. i mean, DAMN!

[rainman::|:|]

well for the OS and (most) other software, A. OS X itself gets an A+, if we're grading on a curve anyway... it's not the best an OS *could* be, but it's far better than anything else on the market... probably will be for some time...

as for hardware... D, D+. that's only because of speed limitations, too. I realize it's out of Apple's control, but all the bells and whistles in the world can't make up for a GHz+ speed difference.

I still think the price is right tho. Apple is a luxury or high-end item. Should be priced accordingly. Plus, despite the speed issue, their hardware is very well designed... and friggin' cool...

pnw

[trebblekicked]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
well for the OS and (most) other software, A. OS X itself gets an A+, if we're grading on a curve anyway...

i love os x. don't get me wrong. but i can't give it an A+ until it fixes all the Twain scanner problems. i know epson has a responsibility there, too, but for a three year old scanner to not work by the 2.5 revision of x is kind of ridiculous (sp?)

[bousozoku]

Originally posted by Computer_Phreak
...
I think that Mac OS X could be hands-down the best OS out there if it could focus on:
1. Hardware and driver support.
2. Native Cocoa-like C++ language.
3. Journaling FS / Speedier
4. Fix of little bugs, inconsistencies, and errors.

Cocoa isn't a language--it's an application framework. There is an Apple hack so you can get to Cocoa from C++ by learning a little Objective-C, which is called Objective-C++.

[jefhatfield]

oh, now we are getting plus and minus grades...he he

when i was in high school, they used to give grades like C+ to make someone not feel so bad because they actually got a C- or a 71 or something

but now that i have been taking college courses for 24 years now...yes, i am hooked...i only see A, B, C, D, and F...kind of unforgiving...so if you get an 89, that is a B and you know you missed an A by one point....but professors tend not to bend as easily as my high school teachers did

and extra credit is not seen that much on a college campus and there is no such thing as a GPA over 4.0

i did spend a couple of years at another, private and expensive college and they did the plus minus thing to make you feel good...they better, i paid a lot of money per class...but college in general is harder than high school and you get one of five grades

and in grad school, there are three grades...A, B, and "take the class over again"...there are no Cs, Ds, or Fs in grad school....if you get a bad grade like a C, it might as well be an F, and chances are you can't skirt around it and take an easier class next semester...you have to tackle the demon and get an A or B

and when you finish your master's...to get to the next level and go for PhD school, you have to have a 3.5 GPA average to usually get in...that means that all Bs and some As won't cut it

i hope i didn't scare off you high school students from college and grad school...when you get there, you will be more than ready to handle it

and again apple gets a B, not B+;)

[tazo]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
if i had to give apple inc a grade for products, service, and frequency of new products, i would give them a "B" overall

by product, bringing price and features together:

12 inch ibook CD - B
12 inch ibook combo - A
14 inch ibook - C

tibook - B
12 inch powerbook - A
17 inch powerbook - B

emac - B

crt imac - C

15 inch imac - B
17 inch imac - A

entry ipod - A
bigger ipods - B

server - never seen one

jaguar - B

final cut pro - never seen it

appleworks - B

...as for other high tech companies,

i would give sony and nokia an A,
adobe, macromedia, and toshiba a B,
hp-compaq, dell, microsoft, cisco, and sun a C,
and sbc/pacbell, e-machines, motorola, and ibm a D

and sometimes, some of the D companies are a big fat F as is microsoft from time to time;)

dont knock emachines :mad:

[jefhatfield]

when i first saw emachines, with their underpowered power supplies in 99, i would have given the company an F

maybe i was being hard on them, i will give them a C

but not a B where i put apple inc

[Catfish_Man]

Originally posted by tazo
dont knock emachines :mad:
Yeah! And don't knock the Ford Pinto either! And Windows 3.1! (Sorry, I just really detest eMachines. I think they take advantage of poorer less educated consumers by selling them crap that the consumers aren't qualified to recognize as crap).

To keep this on topic:

CRT iMac: D (If it was 300-400 dollars it would be ok, as it is, the eMac squashes it)

iBook: B (I actually like the 14", but nuetering the monitor spanning capabilities and running the bus below its rated speed is marketing at its worst. Still pretty slick.)

12" PB: B (Great, but I've heard of case warping and heat problems. It'll get an A/A+ when the fix those)
15" PB: A- (A fscking awesome laptop. I can't wait for an aluminum one)
17" PB: A- (Again, case warping problems, great other than that. I love the light sensor idea. Maybe they can make the next model handle color calibration as well as brightness/contrast)

1GHz PM: C (Not enough bang for your buck, not even dual processor. The price cut is a step in the right direction though)
1.25GHz PM: B- (Better, but shared 167MHz memory bus is NOT good enough for 2003. Also, they need to turn on the USB2 ports)
1.43GHz PM: B- (Better still, but the price drags it down a bit)

15" FP iMac: A (Nice machine, the screen is a little small)
17" FP iMac: A+ (Droooool...)

eMac: A (It's a CRT, but it's cheap, and packs a good amount of power for its price. The new educational model really outdates the CRT iMac)

Mac OS X: A (A++ operating system dragged down by a few braindead mistakes. I'm looking forward to 10.3)
10.2.4/10.2.5 updates: C- (Whatever happened to testing an update before releasing it?)

Safari: A- (Lacks some of Omniweb's features and polish, but is a lot more solid for now. Also, it's free and OW isn't. Camino rates about the same as Safari for about the same reasons. It's a tad faster though)

XServe: A (Very nice. Needs ECC ram, but that's a pretty minor complaint)

XServe RAID: ? (I'm not qualified to judge this, but it looks pretty sweet)

Apple Pro Keyboard: C (Whatever happened to keyboards like the late 80's Dell and IBM ones? Those were great)

Apple Pro Mouse: A- (Needs two buttons, a scroll wheel, and one of those Logitech MX optical sensors. Then it will be perfect)

Future: A (The PPC970 looks great, the filesystem and clustering rumors for 10.3 sound great, and the stores are doing well. Let's just hope they don't blow it)

[MacFan25]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
sbc/pacbell, e-machines, motorola, and ibm a D
why did you give ibm a D? do you not think they make good computers?

Originally posted by jefhatfield
and when you finish your master's...to get to the next level and go for PhD school, you have to have a 3.5 GPA average to usually get in
are you currently going for a PhD?

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by MacFan25
why did you give ibm a D? do you not think they make good computers?


are you currently going for a PhD?

no, just a master's though (pc technician related stuff) very slowly...no need for the phd since i don't plan to be a full time teacher

part time teacher is most i could do, timewise, since i can't just ditch my business as long as i can see, walk, hear, or type;)

there are phds in the industry/commerce side of computers, but not that many...unless they failed as a teacher;)

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by MacFan25
PowerMac - A


that's insane.

[MacFan25]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
that's insane.
why do you think that? :confused:

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by MacFan25
why do you think that? :confused:

have you run any intense apps on a powermac? try running maya and we'll see if you stick with an A

i think with the 970's, an A- is realistic.....

[MacFan25]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
have you run any intense apps on a powermac? try running maya and we'll see if you stick with an A

i think with the 970's, an A- is realistic.....
good point. but for any of the other apps, i haven't heard many complaints.

but, a 970 would definitley help it!

:D

[Kwyjibo]

hmm too bad they didn't change the ibooks a bit more. As of right now i think current grades are about right even with the upgrades.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by MacFan25
why did you give ibm a D? do you not think they make good computers?


when i first started as a computer person, i sold the gear and i liked the ibm offerings...about 5-10 percent pricey, but worth it

then ibm had bad sales and they took their entire retail computing division off the shelves

but you can buy them online, but it doesn't help if you can't see and try them out

nothing wrong with their server and high end stuff...but that's a different category and i wouldn't call them personal computers

ibm ran their printer division into the ground, but when they broke off into a different company called lexmark...the printers eventually came back to quality...i have a lexmark and i like it better than my epson

as a company, too many people were fired and some divisions, printer and pc divisions, suffered

ibm, due to their many markets in software and hardware, will be here for a long time, but i don't think they will be an innovator in the world of home desktop and laptop computing

i don't know much about via voice, but i heard it was a great product and ibm's best and most wowed about product in many years...they did sell well at office depot and i do remember via voice actually being on the home page of apple.com once!