Bought a new car! [Archive] - MacRumors Forums

nospleen

Apr 17, 2003, 09:25 AM

Originally posted by dukestreet
But that is another thing about the Element - it doesn't look like any other car. Your Mountaineer is very similar to all the other SUVs - Honda won a ton of design awards for the Element.

I like the out of the box thinking that went into it and think its design concepts are more mac like in its originality and style than any of the other SUVs out there.

D

Not to mention the resale value as well as the reliability of the Honda. Dukestreet the residual value of the Element after four years is 54%! That is an unbelievable resale value. The stereo is 270 watts and is by far the best stereo in ANY Honda.
I had a gentlemen come in yesterday and drive the new accord. He was on the way out and asked, "what is that ugly thing outside on the porch?" I said, "You must be talking about something across the street, because we do not sell anything ugly here.":D
Needless to say, he drove home in a brand new 2003 Honda Element EX 4WD.
;)
Most of the people who do not like it, have not had a chance to see the inside, play with the features, or drive it.
You made a great choice Dukestreet, no doubt you will love it!

Warren

Apr 17, 2003, 09:33 AM

No offense but I saw one of those the other day and thought to myself that could be the ugliest production car I have ever seen. The no post between the doors in nice though.

guitargeek

Apr 17, 2003, 09:37 AM

No offense but I saw one of those the other day and thought to myself that could be the ugliest production car I have ever seen.

I thought the same thing. I think the Aztec looks better! :eek:

I'm not a SUV/Truck kinda guy anyway, though, so I guess it doesn't really matter.

DakotaGuy

Apr 17, 2003, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by nospleen
Not to mention the resale value as well as the reliability of the Honda. Dukestreet the residual value of the Element after four years is 54%! That is an unbelievable resale value. The stereo is 270 watts and is by far the best stereo in ANY Honda.

Reliability has not been proven. It might be a Honda, but certain new models will always have problems. I have a friend with a 2001 Accord, he bought it because they told him, "It will NEVER EVER break down and nothing can be broke on it." It has turned out to be a lemon. Brake problems, new transmission, power window failure, emission control problems, at least it has all been warranty.

I don't see anything special about a 270 watt stereo, my Mountaineer has a 350 watt CD-6 with 6 speakers and a factory powered subwoofer.

Besides what does it have for an engine? I hope at least a V6. That thing is going to be pushing wind like a wall...can you imagine heading into a 30-40MPH wind in a 4cyl, torque less, box, fully loaded with passengers and cargo??? NOT FOR ME! I like to be able to pull hills fully loaded at 85 and have plenty of power left.

G4scott

Apr 17, 2003, 09:58 AM

uh...

wow...

There's one of those at my school, and there are people who kick it every day because they don't like it. They call it the transformer car.

It just seems like a weird car to me.

I dont like many of these new cars with lots of plastic and a boxy look to them. The Element, H2, Aztec, the Cheverolet Avalanche, Nissan Frontier, Lincoln Navigator, or any Cadillac SUV or truck.

To me, a car that has a boxy look would only look good with sheet metal on the outside, like the original hummer. I like cars and SUV's with good looking lines, not bubbly like a ford escort (that car reminds me of a jelly bean, and I drove it to school today...) Like cadillac cars. They have that sleek, stylish, stealth appearance. Chrystlers are too curvy. They look like every other car out there, like most ford cars (except for new mustangs and a couple others, because they're not too curvy) I don't like the cheverolet Impala, because it looks like a mix between a cadillac and a ford Taurus. It's not sleek enough, and it tries to take design cues from other cooler looking cars...

Cars that I do like- Toyota Avalon, Camry, Tacoma, and a few other cars that don't look short and fat. Corvette, Viper, Cadillac cars, and most other sleek, longer japanese cars. I also like the look of subarus. The impreza WRX looks a bit like a tuner car, and I don't like it as much, and I hate the Baja... The outback sedan is nice. It's a pretty solid car.

Some people like different style cars. I am a bit picky about what I would get... I won't really complain unless the car looks bad because of something the owner put on it or did to it. (chrome rims, a supra spoiler, and those light up windshield sprayers...)

G4scott

Apr 17, 2003, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
Besides what does it have for an engine? I hope at least a V6. That thing is going to be pushing wind like a wall...can you imagine heading into a 30-40MPH wind in a 4cyl, torque less, box, fully loaded with passengers and cargo??? NOT FOR ME! I like to be able to pull hills fully loaded at 85 and have plenty of power left.

It has a 160hp 4-Cyl engine. with 161ft-lb at 4500 RPM

My Toyota truck has a 4 banger, and it works just fine. It does 60-70 on the highway loaded with stuff in the back. I don't think the engine on my truck has more than 110hp.

Not all 4- bangers suck. The 4-banger in the newest Impreza WRX puts oiut 300hp. I don't know how much torque it has, but it's still impressive.

Mr. Anderson

Apr 17, 2003, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
Besides what does it have for an engine? I hope at least a V6. That thing is going to be pushing wind like a wall...can you imagine heading into a 30-40MPH wind in a 4cyl, torque less, box, fully loaded with passengers and cargo??? NOT FOR ME! I like to be able to pull hills fully loaded at 85 and have plenty of power left.

Its got a 160 HP 4cyl dohc i-vtec engine - 161 lb-ft of torque, more than adequate on a 3500 lb car. Test drove it up a hill and hit the accel, no problems at all.

Besides, with a 4cyl its not going to be eating the gas - something that was important.

You're fine and happy with you Mountaineer/Explorer, ok, not a problem.

Oh, and it has a moon roof in the rear! that comes out, the moon roof starts just over the back seats and goes all the way back - its huge. Lets in lots of light and again, the space inside is amazing.

D

nospleen

Apr 17, 2003, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
Reliability has not been proven. It might be a Honda, but certain new models will always have problems. I have a friend with a 2001 Accord, he bought it because they told him, "It will NEVER EVER break down and nothing can be broke on it." It has turned out to be a lemon. Brake problems, new transmission, power window failure, emission control problems, at least it has all been warranty.

I don't see anything special about a 270 watt stereo, my Mountaineer has a 350 watt CD-6 with 6 speakers and a factory powered subwoofer.

Besides what does it have for an engine? I hope at least a V6. That thing is going to be pushing wind like a wall...can you imagine heading into a 30-40MPH wind in a 4cyl, torque less, box, fully loaded with passengers and cargo??? NOT FOR ME! I like to be able to pull hills fully loaded at 85 and have plenty of power left.

All cars will have problems from time to time. The engine in the element has been proven, it is a 2.4 l four cylinder. It is also in the CRV and the Accord, so reliability will not be an issue. Oil changes are every 10,000 miles. The first tune up is not for 110,000 miles. It also has a timing chain and not a timing belt, so it does not have to be replaced. With the money Dukestreet will save on maintenance and repair costs, he can buy a Dual 1.42 gig Powermac and a 20 inch cinema display. Not to sound rude, but go try and trade your Mercury in. I think you will be in for a rude awakening. Also, check out the new Consumer Reports. Out of 100 Honda vehicles tested over a three year period, only 21 had any problems. Mercury was 57 out of 100. I think I would roll the dice on the Honda. But if you Mercury breakes down, at least you can sit there and listen to your unbelievable stereo.
;)
Of course your Mercury has more options, just compare the sticker prices! The Element fully loaded is 21,310, I imagine the Mercury to be near or over 30k M.S.R.P.

Mrs. Zinnderson

Apr 17, 2003, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by dukestreet
got the 4wd LX in black! :D

My wife took her XM Radio with her so she'll be putting it to the test. Its got a great sound system, 7 speakers and a sub-woofer!

I'm going to really enjoy it, but I'm thinking she's not going to let me use it much during the week ;)

D

Hate to correct my hubby in public, but we got the 4WD EX in Nighthawk Black Pearl. Bought the "Touch of Class" appearance package to help maintain the dark finish.

Had my friends try to guess (one volunteered to be adopted if we bought what we previously had our eyes on ... a black New Beetle convertible). So I said, think "it's so ugly it's cute", great doggie car. So then she guessed a Hummer. I then hinted that it's the Mini-Cooper-Japanese Hummer model. Haven't heard back from her!

Dutchess Street

Mr. Anderson

Apr 17, 2003, 10:18 AM

Originally posted by nospleen
Of course your Mercury has more options, just compare the sticker prices! The Element fully loaded is 21,310, I imagine the Mercury to be near or over 30k M.S.R.P.

I just did a quick search on the Mercury website and first, its not compatible with Safari, so I had to open up with IE. And the lowest level V6 Premier package comes out to almost 40k!!! What did you spend on your car and are you driving a V6 or V8.....

D

Mr. Anderson

Apr 17, 2003, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by DutchessStreet
Hate to correct my hubby in public, but we got the 4WD EX in Nighthawk Black Pearl. Bought the "Touch of Class" appearance package to help maintain the dark finish.

Ok, yeah, well, I was thinking the LX was the better version, but its the EX, sorry. It comes with the alloy wheels, too, which are much nicer than the regular ones. I hate hub caps, you eventually lose them and your car looks like crap....:D

D

mcrain

Apr 17, 2003, 10:22 AM

Nice car Duke. I really hope you enjoy it.

After driving my car, I think I'd want a Cayenne for the performance.

http://www3.us.porsche.com/english/usa/cayenne/default.htm

medea

Apr 17, 2003, 10:23 AM

great choice Duke, actually that is one of the cars we (my fiancee and I) are looking at for her, either that right now or the mazda protege 5, not sure yet. But one thing that impressed me with the Element is the gas mileage, it does really well on gas.

Mrs. Zinnderson

Apr 17, 2003, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by nospleen
With the money Dukestreet will save on maintenance and repair costs, he can buy a Dual 1.42 gig Powermac and a 20 inch cinema display. Not to sound rude, but go try and trade your Mercury in. I think you will be in for a rude awakening. Also, check out the new Consumer Reports. Out of 100 Honda vehicles tested over a three year period, only 21 had any problems. Mercury was 57 out of 100. I think I would roll the dice on the Honda. But if you Mercury breakes down, at least you can sit there and listen to your unbelievable stereo.
;)
Of course your Mercury has more options, just compare the sticker prices! The Element fully loaded is 21,310, I imagine the Mercury to be near or over 30k M.S.R.P.

A couple of things:

1. Duke's already campaigning for the new computer. "New Car = New Mac". Jury's out on that one...

2. We're trading in a Mercury Villager. HATED IT. Inherited it via my great uncle/dad. We've spent over $3,000 trying to fix a leaky fuel pump, and it has/d a kill switch that finally broke so you literally have to hot wire the car to start it. I had a friend who worked for Nissan (Quest = Villager) and he said the Quest was the WORST performing vehicle in the Nissan lineup.

3. My first car I purchased new was as '84 Dominican Red Honda Accord Hatchback w/ louvered windows. It cost 10 grand. Loved it till it got hit by a tree in a hurricane. Bought a Nissan 200SX (great drug dealer car) and owned it for 10 on-off years until I bought a 1-year old Subaru. I LOVE HONDAS and SUBARUS!

Mr. Anderson

Apr 17, 2003, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by mcrain
Nice car Duke. I really hope you enjoy it.

After driving my car, I think I'd want a Cayenne for the performance.

That's a nice car, but way too much and a bit ostentatious for our tastes. Besides, a V8 450 hp would be overkill :D What do they run, didn't see a price on the website.

Love to take it for a ride though....but every time I put the dog it there I'd be cringing - it would have to come with a dog wash in the back so we could get the mud off before letting her in...all those dirty paws on the leather.....;)

D

Mrs. Zinnderson

Apr 17, 2003, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by guitargeek
I thought the same thing. I think the Aztec looks better! :eek:

I'm not a SUV/Truck kinda guy anyway, though, so I guess it doesn't really matter.

Aztek? ICK! I guess only a mommy could love this face!

Mr. Anderson

Apr 17, 2003, 10:39 AM

Originally posted by DutchessStreet
Aztek? ICK! I guess only a mommy could love this face!

I have to agree with my wife on the Aztec - not pretty. The Honda isn't pretty either, but the difference here is that the Honda isn't trying to win a good looks contest. The Aztec tries to look cool, but in my opinion fails miserably....;)

As for the 'new computer' - well, its still not available, so its a moot point there, eh? :D Besides, I don't think you'd win any arguement here on why not to buy a PowerMac 970.

D

evoluzione

Apr 17, 2003, 10:49 AM

~barfs at the Mountaineer~ It's bland, and over priced, and underpowered. Typical American motor, scared of a 4cyl so they put in a V6 or V8 that underperforms badly. And of course drinks the fuel because of it. There's nothing wrong with 4cylinder motors, it's just the stigma attached to them in this country, my old lancia had a 1.6l 4pot and that thing was so so quick, it'd beat a mustang any day.

Granted, if i was to buy a big yank tank, i'd want nothing less than a V6, because they are so uneconomical (with regards to power output, not fuel). how can you have a 5litre V8 that puts out less than 300hp???

damn, sorry for the rant ;)

DakotaGuy

Apr 17, 2003, 10:56 AM

I have a Mountaineer AWD V6 Premier, I wish I had went for the V8, you can never use enough power, but the SOHC V6 is a good engine making 210HP and 260lb. tq. Mine stickered around $40k, but I bought it with about 15,000 miles and from a relative for $25,000.

Nospleen:

Maybe you are right, my Mountaineer probably is a POS, but I would put it up against the Element in build quality, performance, comfort, room, towing, and load handling. I have driven it and now have 30,000 miles on it and it has never been in the shop for anything except for oil changes and tire rotation. Nothing has went wrong with it. I guess I still like to purchase from American companies.

Everyone on these boards wants to see General Motors and Ford Motor Company go broke, but nobody understands what would happen. Does anyone realize the type of impact those two companies have in this country???

Everyone thinks American vehicles are terrible because the last time they drove one or even rode in one was back in the 80's. There are some nice American products out there, and I think the new Explorer/Mountaineer/Avaitor are some good examples. American companies have some work to do on their car lines, but in SUV and truck lines they are by far the best out there. If you need further proof...look at this...coming this fall...

DakotaGuy

Apr 17, 2003, 10:58 AM

and of course the 2004 F150 interior...

bwawn

Apr 17, 2003, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
I like to be able to pull hills fully loaded at 85 and have plenty of power left.

And this is because the speed limit is no more than 75 in most states, right?

I dunno, I'm different from just about everyone else in this thread. I prefer smaller cars that get me efficient gas mileage. I also don't like SUVs because their fatality rate in accidents for people in other vehicles is far higher than any other car. That, and an SUV once backed into my parked car and never left a note. ;)

Please don't use this post as the basis for an SUV flamewar. I'm not trying to start anything... if you like one kind of vehicle, go ahead and buy it, it's your money. I mostly just wanted to post the first comment above.

Mr. Anderson

Apr 17, 2003, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
Maybe you are right, my Mountaineer probably is a POS, but I would put it up against the Element in build quality, performance, comfort, room, towing, and load handling.

It might have more power, but the ride is very nice, and its quite comfortable. But the thing is, you really can't compare the two, they're too different. The Element is much more utilitarian and less luxurious. We weren't looking for luxury.

Its all a personal pref anyway....:D

D

DakotaGuy

Apr 17, 2003, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by dukestreet
It might have more power, but the ride is very nice, and its quite comfortable. But the thing is, you really can't compare the two, they're too different. The Element is much more utilitarian and less luxurious. We weren't looking for luxury.

Its all a personal pref anyway....:D

D

I guess your right, no need to argue...you are happy with the Element and I am happy with the Mountaineer. I guess it could be worse. We could live back in the days of Communist Russia when you had one choice of a government produced car. Any brand or model car built anywhere is an excellent vehicle compared with what they produced.

DakotaGuy

Apr 17, 2003, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by bwawn
And this is because the speed limit is no more than 75 in most states, right?

I also don't like SUVs because their fatality rate in accidents for people in other vehicles is far higher than any other car.

First off, Yes our speed limit is 75. The question is does anyone drive 75? I can go 80 and get passed by 1980 something Tercels going 90+...how scary that must feel! I drive between 75 and 85 on interstate and around 65-70 on 2 lanes. I try to keep close to the limit. The point I was trying to make has nothing to do with the speed limit, but only to do with the vehicles ability to pull itself at max load and have power left over if it is needed.

Second point, you sound like those people that wants government to regulate SUV's because you are scared of them in your little car. Well SUV's are not the problem...I mean...if you are scared about an SUV out there, how do you drive with Semi trucks on the highways???????????

If you are worried about the death rate then buy a bigger car. There are some decent, good,mid-sized cars out there that weigh over 3,000lbs. and have good crash ratings plus get good MPG.

jelloshotsrule

Apr 17, 2003, 11:30 AM

and people say the hybrids are ugly???

the asstek is by far the worst. but the element is heinous all the same. no matter if it's in ass black or midnight ass black ;)

Mr. Anderson

Apr 17, 2003, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
and people say the hybrids are ugly???

the asstek is by far the worst. but the element is heinous all the same. no matter if it's in ass black or midnight ass black ;)

that from a person who wets his pants ;)

all in the eye of the beholder there jello, and I agree on the hybrids, though. There's no really need to make them ugly, especially with the partial rear wheel cover. Strange.

D

wdlove

Apr 17, 2003, 11:41 AM

Congratulations dukestreet on your new Element. ;) Let me know what kind of gas mileage you get? My wife is thinking if leasing one to use as a visiting nurse. She needs something that is good for city driving and snow for the winter. Does it have good room for cargo, she carries alot of medical equipment? Since I'm 6'8" will I find leg room also? ;)

nospleen

Apr 17, 2003, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
I guess your right, no need to argue...you are happy with the Element and I am happy with the Mountaineer. I guess it could be worse. We could live back in the days of Communist Russia when you had one choice of a government produced car. Any brand or model car built anywhere is an excellent vehicle compared with what they produced.

Or you could be like me and have a Civic, doh!! A good car, but I really want a Honda Pilot. Now that is more along the lines of your Mercury. You sure picked up that Mercury for cheap, good price. Also, that F150 looks niiiiiice!!

Mr. Anderson

Apr 17, 2003, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by wdlove
Congratulations dukestreet on your new Element. ;) Let me know what kind of gas mileage you get? My wife is thinking if leasing one to use as a visiting nurse. She needs something that is good for city driving and snow for the winter. Does it have good room for cargo, she carries alot of medical equipment? Since I'm 6'8" will I find leg room also? ;)

You will most likely fit - my wife has 36" legs and I have a long body, so between the two of us we make it difficult to find a car that fits us both.

I'd suggest going and sitting in one yourself - and there is plenty of space.

D

guitargeek

Apr 17, 2003, 01:13 PM

Its got a 160 HP 4cyl dohc i-vtec engine - 161 lb-ft of torque, more than adequate on a 3500 lb car.

More than adequate?

To each his own.

Mr. Anderson

Apr 17, 2003, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by guitargeek
More than adequate?

To each his own.

What do you consider adequate? If you've driven one you'd see for yourself.

More horsepower and you trade off on the fuel economy and for city driving, that's what you need, not Power.

D

MacBandit

Apr 17, 2003, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by nospleen
All cars will have problems from time to time. The engine in the element has been proven, it is a 2.4 l four cylinder. It is also in the CRV and the Accord, so reliability will not be an issue. Oil changes are every 10,000 miles. The first tune up is not for 110,000 miles. It also has a timing chain and not a timing belt, so it does not have to be replaced. With the money Dukestreet will save on maintenance and repair costs, he can buy a Dual 1.42 gig Powermac and a 20 inch cinema display. Not to sound rude, but go try and trade your Mercury in. I think you will be in for a rude awakening. Also, check out the new Consumer Reports. Out of 100 Honda vehicles tested over a three year period, only 21 had any problems. Mercury was 57 out of 100. I think I would roll the dice on the Honda. But if you Mercury breakes down, at least you can sit there and listen to your unbelievable stereo.
;)
Of course your Mercury has more options, just compare the sticker prices! The Element fully loaded is 21,310, I imagine the Mercury to be near or over 30k M.S.R.P.

Then entire drive train is out of the CRV and and had been in production and selling for over a year now. It is well proven. Me and my fiancé have been looking at the Element also because of the possibility of kids in the near future. Also it fits in with my and our lifestyle well since I like to go camping a lot and the interior being water resistance and all is a real killer.

Did you get the 4wd model? If not did you get a 5spd?

Oh, and since Abercrombieboy wants to bash on the element I just wan to know who the hell would buy a pile of crap mercury? What a pile of junk and they're but ugly to boot.

Also can your mercury hall 10ft lumber inside? Also do your seats all fold flat so you can sleep on them? Can you hose out the mud and much from the floor after going camping or skiing? Can you slide a set of skiis under the seats so you can hall your skis and equipment inside with all the passengers?

MacBandit

Apr 17, 2003, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
and people say the hybrids are ugly???

the asstek is by far the worst. but the element is heinous all the same. no matter if it's in ass black or midnight ass black ;)

You have got to see one with the running boards, aux. driving lights, and 18" rims. They are damn good looking when set up that way. Oh, and in midnight blue.

GeneR

Apr 17, 2003, 01:40 PM

Congrats, D, looks like a real winner. :D

mcrain

Apr 17, 2003, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by dukestreet
That's a nice car, but way too much and a bit ostentatious for our tastes. Besides, a V8 450 hp would be overkill :D What do they run, didn't see a price on the website.

Love to take it for a ride though....but every time I put the dog it there I'd be cringing - it would have to come with a dog wash in the back so we could get the mud off before letting her in...all those dirty paws on the leather.....;)

D

NEW 2003 Cayenne, Cayenne S, Lapis Blue/Stone/steel Grey Leather 0 $65,080 60439
NEW 2003 Cayenne, Cayenne S, Lapis Blue/Stone/steel Grey Leather 0 $61,170 60947
NEW 2003 Cayenne, Cayenne S, Chrystal Silver/Stone/steel Grey Leather 0 $62,930 60509

The Turbo they had in stock went for about $95k or so.

guitargeek

Apr 17, 2003, 01:46 PM

What do you consider adequate? If you've driven one you'd see for yourself.

I haven't driven the Element, but I HAVE driven Accords and an Acura that had the same motor, and both felt very sluggish to me.

My car has 40 more horsepower, less weight, and I still feel it to be underpowered.

Sorry, Honda left a bad taste in my mouth. After messing around for a few months with a friend's civic, I realized that Honda isn't really any more reliable than any other car, and they're expensive to fix to boot. Ever replace a distributor on a Honda? They're damn expensive, and they don't last very long, either (my friend went through two).

Don't worry, you'll probably have great luck with your new car, and I'm sure you'll love it, I just have bad luck with every one I come in contact with.

Mr. Anderson

Apr 17, 2003, 01:53 PM

Originally posted by mcrain
NEW 2003 Cayenne, Cayenne S, Lapis Blue/Stone/steel Grey Leather 0 $65,080 60439
NEW 2003 Cayenne, Cayenne S, Lapis Blue/Stone/steel Grey Leather 0 $61,170 60947
NEW 2003 Cayenne, Cayenne S, Chrystal Silver/Stone/steel Grey Leather 0 $62,930 60509

The Turbo they had in stock went for about $95k or so.

hahahahaha!!!!

Sorry, but from where I'm sitting that's just so much a waste of money, regardless of what the car is. :D

It'd still be nice to drive, I imagine. Have you checked one out yet?

D

MacBandit

Apr 17, 2003, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by dukestreet
hahahahaha!!!!

Sorry, but from where I'm sitting that's just so much a waste of money, regardless of what the car is. :D

It'd still be nice to drive, I imagine. Have you checked one out yet?

D

I've seen a couple in person and IMHO they are right there with the Asstec when it comes to appearances. Butt ugly.

I would have preferred a lifted Carrera 4 personally.

Mrs. Zinnderson

Apr 17, 2003, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy

Everyone on these boards wants to see General Motors and Ford Motor Company go broke, but nobody understands what would happen. Does anyone realize the type of impact those two companies have in this country???

I personally don't own a share of stock of Japanese car companies but do own some GM stock. I just can't buy a gas guzzler ... which most American cars are ... because I'm an ecologist at heart!

shadowfax

Apr 17, 2003, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by DutchessStreet
I personally don't own a share of stock of Japanese car companies but do own some GM stock. I just can't buy a gas guzzler ... which most American cars are ... because I'm an ecologist at heart! lol, yeah, i went for a Honda myself. one of my friends was like, "that is such a misfit. it's like the liberal-teen-mobile, man. that's classic." but going 250-300 miles on 10 gallons of gas is just too good to pass up.

JesseJames

Apr 17, 2003, 02:47 PM

I'm eyeing a Mazda Protege ES or a Mitsubishi Lancer myself. I want something with some kind of racing heritage. Especially rally racing. I want to be able to knock it around and take it on trails and such. Nothing too extreme but I like driving to remote areas to hike and do some photography.

Mr. Anderson

Apr 17, 2003, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by JesseJames
I'm eyeing a Mazda Protege ES or a Mitsubishi Lancer myself. I want something with some kind of racing heritage. Especially rally racing. I want to be able to knock it around and take it on trails and such. Nothing too extreme but I like driving to remote areas to hike and do some photography.

You should look into the Subaru WRX, that is one nice car, all wheel drive road rocket!

A little more pricy, though...

D

guitargeek

Apr 17, 2003, 03:00 PM

You should look into the Subaru WRX, that is one nice car, all wheel drive road rocket!

I second that. Subaru's are great cars, very dependable, and not too bad to fix. DON'T get a Mitsubishi Lancer... they're creaky and not very well manufactured. Also, I wouldn't recommend a Mazda, either, but I'm not a Ford fan, either, so I'm a bit biased.

Really, though, the WRX IS a rally car, just without the heavy duty suspension and all terrain tires ;) I wouldn't mind one if they weren't so small. That makes them less desireable for every day use to me.

JesseJames

Apr 17, 2003, 03:17 PM

Dudes, I'd love to get WRX. But it's just too expensive. Also, I'd be leery about getting a used one. Who knows how the previous owner might've abused it considering what it is.

I'm not a big Ford fan either but the Protege has gotten great reviews and to my knowledge is built in Japan. A great plus. It's got all the features I'm looking for in the ES model. I might wait to take a look at the Mazda3 when it comes out.

iJon

Apr 17, 2003, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by nospleen
ijon, get a civic si. It has the same engine as the RSX, (not the type s though), but you can get one for 15,995. :eek:
i havent decided yet. i have many choices. i am looking at the civic and rsx, i like the look of the rsx more. i have an acura legend right now and i love it, came with a bose stero so i didnt have to buy a system. my mom may give me her bmw z3 for graduation (that is if she buys a new sports car this year).

iJon

mcrain

Apr 17, 2003, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by dukestreet
It'd still be nice to drive, I imagine. Have you checked one out yet?

I looked at one for grins and giggles. I wouldn't trade my car in unless I moved somewhere where there was considerably more snow than here. In which case, I'd consider one of those, an original hummer (I don't like the H2), one of the BMW or Mercedes Suvs, or maybe an all wheel drive audi a6 or a8. I heard audi was coming out with a 4wd car based on the a6, something like the s6, with something like 440 horsepower. That's what I want if its nice looking. More power than the M5 with 4wd! Oh yeah!

MacFan25

Apr 17, 2003, 04:14 PM

Congratulations, duke! I think that the Elements are pretty cool looking, but I don't know if I would want one or not.

mcrain - I think that the Cayenne looks great. I saw one on the road a few weeks ago, and I liked it. What kind of car do you drive now?

DakotaGuy

Apr 17, 2003, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by MacBandit
Oh, and since Abercrombieboy wants to bash on the element I just wan to know who the hell would buy a pile of crap mercury? What a pile of junk and they're but ugly to boot.

Also can your mercury hall 10ft lumber inside? Also do your seats all fold flat so you can sleep on them? Can you hose out the mud and much from the floor after going camping or skiing? Can you slide a set of skiis under the seats so you can hall your skis and equipment inside with all the passengers?

First off, as I don't like the Element, others might and if they find it attractive and the best for their needs I hope they buy it and enjoy it...but you are an fxxking idiot and have no idea what you are talking about...

First, both middle and rear row seats fold flat to the floor, or you can do a combination, either sides or center. Yes you can put your skis under the seats and still seat passengers, but there is also a standard luggage rack that they can be mounted on. With all seats up I can very comfortably seat 7 passengers.

Let me see...hose out mud? How much mud is that "car" going to get into??? Common let's mud bog in an Element? Duh! That is stuff for Jeep Wranglers and Hummer H2's. Could the undercarriage even handle hard off road conditions? The Mountaineer has full frame construction with full independent suspension. Crawl underneat an Element check out the chassis strength then look under the Mountaineer. The Mountaineer is a full tubular frame, if you want to go off-road...guess what??? You can!

So it can haul a 10ft. board? Guess what so can I. But I have the tow package rated at 7700lbs of trailer weight, I guess I can haul a few more then one 10ft. board.

Mine still manages to get around 20MPG and I don't care what you say...any high profile vehicle never makes it over 25-28MPG even with a 4cyl.

You write my SUV off because it is American made, that is the only reason. Well just so you know the worlds best selling SUV since 1991 has been the Ford Explorer which is the twin to the Mercury. Even though there was some bad press, it still is Number 1, the Explorer/Mountaineer and now Avaitor will see sales numbers that the Element could only dream of.

Huh 13 years of being the Number 1 selling SUV chassis, must not be as ugly as you think.

DakotaGuy

Apr 17, 2003, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
lol, yeah, i went for a Honda myself. one of my friends was like, "that is such a misfit. it's like the liberal-teen-mobile, man. that's classic." but going 250-300 miles on 10 gallons of gas is just too good to pass up.

GM, Ford, and DC make fuel efficient vehicles, they all have smaller 4 cyl. models available. They just have a much broader range of larger vehicles as does Toyota. The Toyota 4 Runner, Sequoia V8 and Tundra V8 are not any better at gas mileage then their domestic counterparts, in some cases worse. You have to compare Apples to Apples.

guitargeek

Apr 17, 2003, 04:42 PM

GM, Ford, and DC make fuel efficient vehicles, they all have smaller 4 cyl. models available. They just have a much broader range of larger vehicles as does Toyota. The Toyota 4 Runner, Sequoia V8 and Tundra V8 are not any better at gas mileage then their domestic counterparts, in some cases worse. You have to compare Apples to Apples.

Yeah, Saturn's get insane gas mileage. My girlfriend never had to fill her tank, maybe once a month, since she just drove back and forth to work (which is 5 minutes away).

shadowfax

Apr 17, 2003, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
GM, Ford, and DC make fuel efficient vehicles, they all have smaller 4 cyl. models available. They just have a much broader range of larger vehicles as does Toyota. The Toyota 4 Runner, Sequoia V8 and Tundra V8 are not any better at gas mileage then their domestic counterparts, in some cases worse. You have to compare Apples to Apples. yeah, sorry. Honda for me is a quality issue. "fuel efficient" american cars don't have the reputation that Hondas and toyotas do for lasting... and lasting... my family has had several civics, and they have lasted ages, and when we finally did lose them, it wasn't because they were broken.

Mr. Anderson

Apr 17, 2003, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
First off, ...

Let me see...hose out mud? How much mud is that "car" going to get into???

Ok, well, lets not make this personal, ok? I'm not shutting my own thread down because it gets out of hand - at least I better not ;)

As for mud, well, the dog and dirty feet are the issue here. Not many cars I know of except Jeeps get that much mud 'inside' the vehicle.

For our purposes, the Element will do fantastically. We'll be able to take it on dirt roads for camping, not worry too much about snow in the winter and have a decent car for travelling with the dog and kids when we get some of those :D

D

DakotaGuy

Apr 17, 2003, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by Shadowfax
yeah, sorry. Honda for me is a quality issue. "fuel efficient" american cars don't have the reputation that Hondas and toyotas do for lasting... and lasting... my family has had several civics, and they have lasted ages, and when we finally did lose them, it wasn't because they were broken.

I would agree, with small 4cyl cars, Japan does turn out a superior product, I will never argue that one at least not at this point. The best MPG I have ever seen for the size of the car was a 2001 Buick LeSabre that I used as a rental. Yes it was a boat!!! But you can't believe the power that 3800 GM engine has, old as dirt design OHV, but that thing was powerful! On a 450 mile highway trip I managed 34MPG...that is no lie...I was impressed for the size and power. If the LeSabre can get 34 at that size and weight...what is every other company doing wrong?

DakotaGuy

Apr 17, 2003, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by dukestreet
Ok, well, lets not make this personal, ok? I'm not shutting my own thread down because it gets out of hand - at least I better not ;)

As for mud, well, the dog and dirty feet are the issue here. Not many cars I know of except Jeeps get that much mud 'inside' the vehicle.

For our purposes, the Element will do fantastically. We'll be able to take it on dirt roads for camping, not worry too much about snow in the winter and have a decent car for travelling with the dog and kids when we get some of those :D

D

I am sorry, but...I am just getting so tired for getting bashed for driving an American vehicle.

Mr. Anderson

Apr 17, 2003, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
I am sorry, but...I am just getting so tired for getting bashed for driving an American vehicle.

That's alright - people weren't exactly being nice to you either - that's why I gave the warning.

Its all personal pref, like I said before. Otherwise, well, there wouldn't be so many to choose from :D

D

guitargeek

Apr 17, 2003, 05:07 PM

The best MPG I have ever seen for the size of the car was a 2001 Buick LeSabre that I used as a rental. Yes it was a boat!!! But you can't believe the power that 3800 GM engine has,

Yeah, I get gas mileage like that in my Grand Prix, with the 3800. I still think it's kind of a wussy motor, though. That's why I'm going to try to get a new cam, rocker arms, push rods, and valve springs for it. It'll run forever, though. A frequent customer of ours has a 90-something Buick with almost 300,000 on it, and ir runs like a charm.

As far as a motor for just everyday driving and most people, it's fantastic. Timing chain, multi-port injection, and a fantastic layout. Everything is clearly marked and easy to access. It's a dream working on my car :D

And a LeSabre is NOT a boat. GM doesn't make a boat anymore. By my rules, FWD vehicles can't be boats :D

-------------------------------
Guitargeek wishes he had his Caprice station wagon with a 307 4 barrel.

Warren

Apr 17, 2003, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by guitargeek
Yeah, Saturn's get insane gas mileage. My girlfriend never had to fill her tank, maybe once a month, since she just drove back and forth to work (which is 5 minutes away).

If its gas mileage you want check out the turbo diseal jettas and golf. My dad has a Jetta wagon that I taken a on a few trip to michigan. One time I left the chicago area with 3/4 tank and did not exit the car til I arrived in Bay City, Mi. Thats a few hundred miles on under 10 gallons of gas. I was impressed.

If I am ever in the situation where I need to commute more i would probably get one of the TDIs myself.

guitargeek

Apr 17, 2003, 05:16 PM

If its gas mileage you want check out the turbo diseal jettas and golf.

hehehehe, yes, those cars do get great mileage, but I think it's funny how you worded the phrase in response to me. I couldn't care less about gas mileage. I'd be happy driving a 72 Buick with a 455 and a leak in the gas tank :eek: :D

Warren

Apr 17, 2003, 05:28 PM

Maybe this should be a different thread but, what I want to know is this.

As for all yu SUV owners out there. Do you ever take your vehicles off road? And I mean off road not on DIRT roads. or your lawn. or pass people that are turning left in the shoulder and go real fast over the bumps.

I have owned a couple Grand Cherokees and would feel guilty if I had never driven them off road and pushed them a little. For instance, last summer I took it up and over americas Highest Pass road. Mosquito pass I think its called outside of leadville, co.
It was no rubicon trail or anything but was sort of a challenge for a stock GC. We saw one suzuki xl-7 come down with a muffler hanging off it. Bad day for them.

Warren

Apr 17, 2003, 05:30 PM

I dont know why i did that either guitargeek. Guess it just got me thinking on the subject.

DakotaGuy

Apr 17, 2003, 05:57 PM

Yeah I take my Mountaineer off-road, I don't get crazy with it though. The running boards would be shot if I got too wild. We have a ranch at home and I drive around the range, check cows if the pick-ups are not there. It is pretty rough rolling ground so you have to go kind of slow and watch where you are going, but I have not hurt anything yet.

In the Guards I have a Humvee that is issued to me as the PL and then we get a little crazy!!!!

evoluzione

Apr 17, 2003, 06:28 PM

Abercrombieboy....I know i ragged on yer mountaineer earlier, and i think you said in another post it's just 'cause it's an american motor, well, i've never driven a mercury, or even sat in one, just personal preference :) i have, however driven my landlord's Yukon Denali, boy does that thing shift, i love it, i put my foot down going on to the Manhattan Bridge and was totally taken back by the way it accelerated, nice looking too. I know the Explorer is the top selling SUV in the world, but I'm really not sure where else it is sold other than the States, but yeah, you see 'em everywhere here. I rented the Escape last weekend, nice enough, tad slow, but did the job well :)

eh, I don't have a car, so, what right do i have to huh? :rolleyes: each to their own i guess.

and Duke, where's them pics eh? eh? :p

Mr. Anderson

Apr 17, 2003, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by evoluzione
and Duke, where's them pics eh? eh? :p

too dark, just finished up dinner too, so I'll get the pics in the morning....

D

MacBandit

Apr 17, 2003, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
First off, as I don't like the Element, others might and if they find it attractive and the best for their needs I hope they buy it and enjoy it...but you are an fxxking idiot and have no idea what you are talking about...

First, both middle and rear row seats fold flat to the floor, or you can do a combination, either sides or center. Yes you can put your skis under the seats and still seat passengers, but there is also a standard luggage rack that they can be mounted on. With all seats up I can very comfortably seat 7 passengers.

Let me see...hose out mud? How much mud is that "car" going to get into??? Common let's mud bog in an Element? Duh! That is stuff for Jeep Wranglers and Hummer H2's. Could the undercarriage even handle hard off road conditions? The Mountaineer has full frame construction with full independent suspension. Crawl underneat an Element check out the chassis strength then look under the Mountaineer. The Mountaineer is a full tubular frame, if you want to go off-road...guess what??? You can!

So it can haul a 10ft. board? Guess what so can I. But I have the tow package rated at 7700lbs of trailer weight, I guess I can haul a few more then one 10ft. board.

Mine still manages to get around 20MPG and I don't care what you say...any high profile vehicle never makes it over 25-28MPG even with a 4cyl.

You write my SUV off because it is American made, that is the only reason. Well just so you know the worlds best selling SUV since 1991 has been the Ford Explorer which is the twin to the Mercury. Even though there was some bad press, it still is Number 1, the Explorer/Mountaineer and now Avaitor will see sales numbers that the Element could only dream of.

Huh 13 years of being the Number 1 selling SUV chassis, must not be as ugly as you think.

I'm not picking on you because you drive an American car. I drive a Toyota Corrola because IT IS an American car. I agree that you should keep money in the country it just so happens that the only vehicle that is made by Chrysler/GM/Ford I would have right now is a Pontiac Vibe. They just don't build vehicles that are a) appealing to me and b) meet a certain level of drive and forget that I can get with a Toyota or even a Honda.

You're Mountaineer seems to be the exception to the rule when it comes to usability. Most SUVS and such have no room under the seats and the seats have to be removed if you want to store anything of decent size in them.

I mentioned the hose thing not because I would take it off road but when you live on a gravel road things get muddy. Also I do a lot of back road driving and exploring (not 4x4) and just getting in and out of a vehicle can destroy the interior because of the dirt and such.

On a personal note I have not liked the appearance of most American cars and trucks since the beginning of the 90's. I hate the rounded truck with big grill appearance that Ford and Dodge has begun using. I think the only good looking trucks left on the road are GMs and Chevys. Oh, and by the way when it comes to the big three I am a Chevy man. Sorry, I didn't mean to start a fight with you and I don't think it was appropriate of you to use foul language. I just think it's idiotic to slam someone's Honda or Toyota because it's not a American rig since most of them are manufactured here.

DakotaGuy

Apr 17, 2003, 07:37 PM

It's all good, I get too defensive sometimes, because well I really like my SUV. I know there are a few people out there that like them, because since 1991 Ford has produced and sold 5+ million Explorers and Mountaineers. The 2002+ Explorer and Mountaineer are really great products, probably some of the better SUV's out there. Try one out sometime you might be really surprised at the engineering on the all new chassis.

The Escape is a fun little SUV that gets good mileage with a 24V V6, I tried one out but decided on the Mountaineer. I also tryed out an Explorer FX4 Off-Road, It had rubber floors and heavy suspension, but it rode too firm for my taste.

I agree the domestic carmakers could use some help in their car lines. Ford will introduce a new crossover next year called the Freestyle, and the "500" an all wheel drive sports sedan, Mercury will have the Montego, similar to the "500" and a new small all wheel drive sedan based on the Mazda 6. The Focus is getting redesigned as well. I think you will see a lot of progress at least on Fords side and I am sure GM and DC will have some improved offerings...you have to remember one thing...Detroit put everything into the SUV and let their car lines go, but I think soon you will see some exciting new things from them.

MacBandit

Apr 17, 2003, 09:12 PM

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
It's all good, I get too defensive sometimes, because well I really like my SUV. I know there are a few people out there that like them, because since 1991 Ford has produced and sold 5+ million Explorers and Mountaineers. The 2002+ Explorer and Mountaineer are really great products, probably some of the better SUV's out there. Try one out sometime you might be really surprised at the engineering on the all new chassis.

The Escape is a fun little SUV that gets good mileage with a 24V V6, I tried one out but decided on the Mountaineer. I also tryed out an Explorer FX4 Off-Road, It had rubber floors and heavy suspension, but it rode too firm for my taste.

I agree the domestic carmakers could use some help in their car lines. Ford will introduce a new crossover next year called the Freestyle, and the "500" an all wheel drive sports sedan, Mercury will have the Montego, similar to the "500" and a new small all wheel drive sedan based on the Mazda 6. The Focus is getting redesigned as well. I think you will see a lot of progress at least on Fords side and I am sure GM and DC will have some improved offerings...you have to remember one thing...Detroit put everything into the SUV and let their car lines go, but I think soon you will see some exciting new things from them.

My personal taste against them has nothing to do with not knowing about them. I have driven them and ridden in them and just feel that they don't meet my personal standards. You have to understand that I have been a BMW tech for the last 7 years and it's the little things that bother me. The other part of it is I'm sick of these people that drive SUVs and giant trucks and think they can take 3 parking spots, they never carry anything, and never have any passengers. It just seems like such a waste.

Oh, and once again I'm not picking on you but that excuse about them being the number 1 selling vehicle is kind of lame. The same thing can be said about windows and we all know where that's going.:)

DakotaGuy

Apr 17, 2003, 09:28 PM

I looked up some information on the Element...why in the world is the EPA rating only 17 city 22 highway?

That seems very poor for the size and power of the engine. Heck the V8 Explorers and Mountaineers are rated at 16 city and 18/20 highway depending on 2 wheel drive or All Wheel Drive.

MacBandit

Apr 17, 2003, 09:35 PM

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
I looked up some information on the Element...why in the world is the EPA rating only 17 city 22 highway?

That seems very poor for the size and power of the engine. Heck the V8 Explorers and Mountaineers are rated at 16 city and 18/20 highway depending on 2 wheel drive or All Wheel Drive.

The tests I have seen show 22/28 and a mile or two lower for the 5 speed or the AWD version.

DakotaGuy

Apr 17, 2003, 09:36 PM

Originally posted by MacBandit
Oh, and once again I'm not picking on you but that excuse about them being the number 1 selling vehicle is kind of lame. The same thing can be said about windows and we all know where that's going.:)

Why is that lame? You don't become a number 1 selling vehicle if you are a POS or are undesirable. Look at the AMC Pacer from the 70's...it was poorly built, was a stupid design, and it failed miserably. It is even credited as the car that broke AMC's back in the end. The Honda Accord is an excellent car and is a very desirable design, and where is it on the sales chart, yep number 1. If the Explorer was the junk you said it is, would it be Number 1 after 13 years?

DakotaGuy

Apr 17, 2003, 09:45 PM

I stand corrected...the information I read on MPG were for the Pilot which is a larger SUV...the Element AWD/auto is rated at 21/24

Mountaineer AWD V6 is 15/20

that is from the EPA's site

So you were right and I was wrong...

MacBandit

Apr 17, 2003, 09:46 PM

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
I stand corrected...the information I read on MPG were for the Pilot which is a larger SUV...the Element AWD/auto is rated at 21/24

Mountaineer AWD V6 is 15/20

So you were right and I was wrong...

That's still lower then the MPG tests I have seen. It's really hard to go by those tests unless you know specifically how it was driven and where it was driven.

DakotaGuy

Apr 17, 2003, 09:57 PM

Originally posted by MacBandit
You have to understand that I have been a BMW tech for the last 7 years and it's the little things that bother me.

And you drive a Corolla? I mean they are a good little econo-box, but not exactly in BMW territory.

If you are going to bash my car, you need to look at what you drive.

I am done here...your Corolla rulz and my Mountaineer is a POS. You think it is a tank?...have you ever seen a Suburban or Excursion? I know what feels good to me on an Interstate in South Dakota with ice and snow all over it. I know what I feel comfortable and safe in and that is my choice. I know what will pull my snowmobile trailer with 2 sleds on it. I wanted something that would pull a few thousand pounds and still get decent MPG and be a livible vehicle year around. Something sturdy, comfortable, quiet, stable and safe but still affordable for me. That is why I chose what I did. If I had more money I would have went for the Avaitor or the new Volvo SUV, but I got this rig for around $25,000 and for the money it is nice. I like it and really in the end that is all that matters.

MacBandit

Apr 17, 2003, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
And you drive a Corolla???

If you are going to bash my car, you need to look at what you drive.

Corrola is the most dependable car on the road for like 10 years running. The thing is a '97 with 155,000miles and you could have welded the hood shut when it was new. All it's ever needed is oil changes and regular maintenance besides that nothing has gone wrong and the car drives like it was new still. Oh and it doesn't use a drop of oil or leak any either and never has.

The reason I drive a Toyota instead of a BMW is that I know BMWs and yes they are a good car but they are extremely expensive to own. Toyotas are the least expensive to own but are just as good if you aren't talking about luxury.

DakotaGuy

Apr 17, 2003, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by MacBandit
Corrola is the most dependable car on the road for like 10 years running. The thing is a '97 with 155,000miles and you could have welded the hood shut when it was new. All it's ever needed is oil changes and regular maintenance besides that nothing has gone wrong and the car drives like it was new still. Oh and it doesn't use a drop of oil or leak any either and never has.

Hey I was going to stop...but this is too fun...We have a 95 Ford (POS to you) F150 4x4 6 cyl. SuperCab back at the farm. 210,000 miles. OEM engine, transmission, and has been excellent...We had to put a clutch in it. We ran a '78 F150 to 230,000 and an '87 F150 to 185,000. Dad has a '98 with right around 90,000 and it has not had any major problems at all. These were all used on the farm. They pulled, they went off-road, they helped us keep 2 farms 30 miles apart on gravel roads going. Not bad and it is probably the reason I still drive Ford products.

G4scott

Apr 17, 2003, 11:01 PM

While the US's economy may be dependent on our car companies, they have lots of catching up to do to break even with japanese cars. US car manufacturers may be able to get more power out of bigger engines, but their cars cost more, and are usually less dependable.

If i had to buy a work truck, or a car with a big, powerful engine, I would go with an american company.

Oh, and abercrombieboy, while you may claim that SUV's are not any more dangerous than 18-wheelers, you must remember that to drive an 18-wheeler, you must have a certain license. Many SUV drivers are used to smaller cars, and don't know how to handle them under adverse conditions. There are also many more SUV's than 18-wheelers.

There was a case when a woman involved in accident where the person in the other car was killed, got a bigger SUV just to protect herself even more.

I was in an accident where a ford F-150 (king ranch edition) pickup pulled out of a parking lot and smashed into the passenger side of my suburban (I know, I'm a hypocrite now...)

If I was driving my Ford Escort, or even my Toyota Pickup, the car would've been totaled. The suburban only had to get two doors replaced, some side panels, a new wheel, and have its frame straightened. The accident wasn't even at a high speed, and it did a considerable amount of damage to another SUV.

SUV's in the wrong hands are very dangerous. More and more people who can live with smaller cars are opting to go with SUV's because they think they'll be safer.

funkywhat2

Apr 17, 2003, 11:39 PM

Originally posted by MacBandit
I'm not picking on you because you drive an American car. I drive a Toyota Corrola because IT IS an American car. I agree that you should keep money in the country it just so happens that the only vehicle that is made by Chrysler/GM/Ford I would have right now is a Pontiac Vibe. They just don't build vehicles that are a) appealing to me and b) meet a certain level of drive and forget that I can get with a Toyota or even a Honda.

I don't mean to sound like a jackass, and I hope this wasn't said yet, but you seem to forget that the Pontiac Vibe is a rebadged Toyota Matrix, based on a chassis developed and originally marketed in Japan. however, you are right in calling it an American car, since it is produced in America. Just like every other mainstream car sold in the US.

I love the Element! Great car, and you guys got it in a great color. Just a quick question. With out the B-pillar, is there a lot of chassis flex when you hit bumps or tight turns? Good luck with it. *Throws virtual coin on floor*

jelloshotsrule

Apr 17, 2003, 11:57 PM

Originally posted by MacBandit
You have got to see one with the running boards, aux. driving lights, and 18" rims. They are damn good looking when set up that way. Oh, and in midnight blue.

i'd rather buy a new computer, monitor, and tons of porn than spend it on making a car (used for getting from point a to point b) look good ;)

MacBandit

Apr 18, 2003, 02:05 AM

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
Hey I was going to stop...but this is too fun...We have a 95 Ford (POS to you) F150 4x4 6 cyl. SuperCab back at the farm. 210,000 miles. OEM engine, transmission, and has been excellent...We had to put a clutch in it. We ran a '78 F150 to 230,000 and an '87 F150 to 185,000. Dad has a '98 with right around 90,000 and it has not had any major problems at all. These were all used on the farm. They pulled, they went off-road, they helped us keep 2 farms 30 miles apart on gravel roads going. Not bad and it is probably the reason I still drive Ford products.

Have I said anything bad against Ford anywhere? I have said I don't prefer them. That's fine I've heard these stories before. I have one question and the answer may surprise me but how much oil do they use between 3,000 mile oil changes?

MacBandit

Apr 18, 2003, 02:09 AM

Originally posted by funkywhat2
I don't mean to sound like a jackass, and I hope this wasn't said yet, but you seem to forget that the Pontiac Vibe is a rebadged Toyota Matrix, based on a chassis developed and originally marketed in Japan. however, you are right in calling it an American car, since it is produced in America. Just like every other mainstream car sold in the US.

I didn't forget that it was rebadged. In fact it's even produced in Toyotas factory here but it's cheaper then the exact same Toyota and will be even cheaper in 5 years when it will be worth half what the toyota is due to depreciation.

You are wrong about one part. The new Toyotas like the new Corolla and Matrix hell even the Honda Vibe were designed by design teams in California and built here from the ground up. All US designed and built like a lot of Hondas and Toyotas are now.

MacBandit

Apr 18, 2003, 02:13 AM

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
i'd rather buy a new computer, monitor, and tons of porn than spend it on making a car (used for getting from point a to point b) look good ;)

I happen to agree. Though when you are getting married and thinking of a family you start thinking of a way to carry them that isn't the family mini van.

The car I call mine is actually my fiancés though I helped pick it out in '97 and have driven it a lot. I don't own a car currently just a bike. I can't stand paying the insurance on a car. For a guy my age I would be looking at a $1,000 a year for full coverage. Now add that up over the last 9 years I have been driving and compare that to the $300 a year I pay for full coverage on my bike. My friends wonder why I can afford a high end mac, a high end stereo and tv and all sorts of other things and I just point at the bike.

madoka

Apr 18, 2003, 02:58 AM

Abercombie, how do you expect people to react to you? Geez, Duke is happy to buy a new car for his wife and everybody else is congradulating him. Then you come out like a total jerk and say it's ugly and you prefer your SUV which retails for nearly double the Element. Looks to me like you were looking for trouble. Hell, I prefer my 99 Mercedes convertible. Kicks your car's ass, but realistically they are in completely different market segments. . . just like the Element and the Mountaineer.

And to top it off, you're so defensive about your car and the American auto industry. I have a relative (designer) and a friend (engineer) who both work for Ford. They can get me any Ford family product at cost. But both don't recommend it. Says a lot about Ford. BTW, at the factory they make my friend park his Acura way in the back so no one will see it. :)

Mr. Anderson

Apr 18, 2003, 08:30 AM

Well, here's a pic, finally. We'll go take another at a more interesting place this weekend....

Oh, and driving around in it last night was really nice. I sat in the back seats and they're higher up than the front seats, so its like stadium seating for the passengers - very cool.

And laying down the front and rear seats and looking up through the moon roof in the back is very cool. When we go camping it would be very comfortable to sleep in the car....

D

G4scott

Apr 18, 2003, 09:08 AM

I'll will admit that you made a good choice on the color. The one at my school is a butt-ugly shade of green. The picture you first posted of the orange one lookied kinda weird, but black looks fine to me...

Mr. Anderson

Apr 18, 2003, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by G4scott
I'll will admit that you made a good choice on the color. The one at my school is a butt-ugly shade of green. The picture you first posted of the orange one lookied kinda weird, but black looks fine to me...

The black did look the best - the other problem with the other colors is that the interior has 'accent' colors that are just a little too much for our tastes. The dark grey/black interior works great.

Keeping it clean will be more difficult though:D

D

MacBandit

Apr 18, 2003, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by dukestreet
The black did look the best - the other problem with the other colors is that the interior has 'accent' colors that are just a little too much for our tastes. The dark grey/black interior works great.

Keeping it clean will be more difficult though:D

D

It's good to hear your input. You are basically mimicing everything I have thought about it from the tiem I spent with it at the dealer and that's a good thing.

We're considering the blue or the silver. I think both are pretty nice though we'll probably end up with the blue or if they come out with a yellow in the next year or so then maybe that. We're kind of hoping they come out with color matched body panels on a special model.

MacFan25

Apr 18, 2003, 06:56 PM

I think that the black on that looks really good. I've seen some pics of red ones, but I like the black.

G4scott

Apr 18, 2003, 07:24 PM

While it may not go places that my truck could ( http://homepage.mac.com/g4scott/truck.jpg), it certainly is a capable car. It's smooth enough for the city, yet still rugged enough to handle most unpaved roads. I just wouldn't want to get caught in any nasty mud with one.

Of course, to each his own.

Mr. Anderson

Apr 18, 2003, 07:37 PM

Originally posted by G4scott
I just wouldn't want to get caught in any nasty mud with one.

Of course, to each his own.

Well, yeah, I don't see us going looking for mud. But the occassional off road camping trips (like a 100 yards from the road) and winter snows or even on the beach the 4 wheel drive will be great.

After riding around in it some more today, I'm really liking it. It is HUGE inside.....

D

wdlove

Apr 18, 2003, 08:20 PM

Originally posted by dukestreet
Well, yeah, I don't see us going looking for mud. But the occassional off road camping trips (like a 100 yards from the road) and winter snows or even on the beach the 4 wheel drive will be great.

After riding around in it some more today, I'm really liking it. It is HUGE inside.....

D

Thank you for the post with positve comments. My wife contacted our local Honda dealer today. She plans to take a test drive next Friday! ;)

Mr. Anderson

Apr 18, 2003, 11:17 PM

Originally posted by wdlove
Thank you for the post with positve comments. My wife contacted our local Honda dealer today. She plans to take a test drive next Friday! ;)

That's very cool, I look forward to hearing what you think. Personally, the more I've driven it the more I like it. ;)

D

jelloshotsrule

Apr 19, 2003, 09:24 AM

Originally posted by dukestreet
Well, here's a pic, finally. We'll go take another at a more interesting place this weekend....

........

was it you or your wife that got the job at the mortuary??? ;)

Mr. Anderson

Apr 19, 2003, 09:41 AM

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
was it you or your wife that got the job at the mortuary??? ;)

Ha, nice - but you know what, its not that big, that's another nice thing about it.

And I really don't care if you don't like it.

D

DakotaGuy

Apr 19, 2003, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by madoka
Hell, I prefer my 99 Mercedes convertible. Kicks your car's ass, They can get me any Ford family product at cost. But both don't recommend it. Says a lot about Ford. BTW, at the factory they make my friend park his Acura way in the back so no one will see it. :)

First off, yes in street performance your car can kick my ass, but I would imagine in a foot of snow, pulling a load, going down some trail, your Mercedes convertible would have some problems. You get upset at me for comparing apples to oranges, then you go and say your car can kick my SUV's ass? Depends in what situation. I think people are quick to write off anything that Ford builds. The Lincoln LS is a great car and has received a lot of good press. The Volvo's are excellent as well...I think I would take an LS or Volvo at cost.

jelloshotsrule

Apr 19, 2003, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by dukestreet
And I really don't care if you don't like it.

oh no!

woe is me

Mr. Anderson

Apr 19, 2003, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
oh no!

woe is me

That was totally unnecessary - come on jello - if you don't have anything to say you're better off not saying anything. :rolleyes:

Its all personal pref here, and its not like I'm forcing you to go out and get one yourself. You've mentioned in two posts that you don't like it, fine. Next time try and contribute something a little more substantial.

D

jethroted

Apr 19, 2003, 11:46 AM

This is my car, but I have the 2002 model. It looks pretty much the same. I say screw all you guys with your trucks and suv's caus my car kicks all your @$$! So you guys can stop fighting now. I win.

jethroted

Apr 19, 2003, 11:47 AM

Whoops! I forgot the pic!

DakotaGuy

Apr 19, 2003, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by jethroted
Whoops! I forgot the pic!

Now that is a nice looking car, what is it?

jethroted

Apr 19, 2003, 12:07 PM

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
Now that is a nice looking car, what is it?

I guess I should have said what it was before. It's an Acura RSX Premium. Premium means it's the mid-range model.

DakotaGuy

Apr 19, 2003, 12:34 PM

Look I am pretty much done defending my SUV everyone thinks it is a POS and that is fine. I guess you are lucky you don't have to drive it because it is about equal to a Daewoo. When I bought it I wanted an SUV so that is what I looked at. I did look at foreign SUV's, because my friends told me that American is very un-trendy and to be cool and do the right thing you have to drive a foreign car.

I looked at and drove a Montero, 4Runner and also a Chevy Trailblazer. I wanted a midsize, full framed SUV. Now I know the 4Runner has been redesigned, but at the time I drove a 2001. The Montero was tall and narrow, very very top heavy. I did not like how it handled at all. It felt like, well a narrow tall delivery truck. The 4Runner felt small inside for all the mass on the outside. It felt like the most agile if I was to take it offroad, but the solid rear axle thumped bad on the highway seams. I did like the Trailblazer. Powerwise the Trailblazer was amazing!!!

I also looked at a couple of Explorers. The suspension on them is tuned stiffer however and they also have part-time 4x4 and for how I use it I sort of wanted full time all wheel drive.

I liked the balance and stability of the Mountaineer, it felt very surefooted and stable. My friend told me to buy the Montero, even if I did not like how it drove because it would look cooler. If I would have chose anything other then the Explorer or Mountaineer I would have actually done the "uncool" thing and got a Trailblazer. The Trailblazer was very stable and the handling was almost as good, but it had more roadnoise. Powerwise the Trailblazer had more power then anything I drove. It was unbelivable.

I bought what I felt safe and comfortable in. I like how it drove and I liked some of the features like the fold down 3rd row seat and rear heat and air. The seats fit me nice and the controls are easy to use. It will pull my trailer. The all wheel drive is nice. A friend of mine and I came home last night in a rainstorm and AWD really helps the "glued to the road" feeling in situations like that. I like the anti-skid system, until you experience it, it is hard to describe. The 5 speed automatic is nice, the gear ranges are so close you cannot feel it shift up and down hills. It has things like roll-over canopy airbags, adjustable pedals, and a telescoping steering wheel. Some things I just could not find on the 4runner or Montero for less money. That is why I bought it.

I also looked at the IIHS 40 MPH offset crash test where it was a best-pick holding up better and offering the best protection in it's class. It also scored 3 stars on roll-over ratings, which not as good as most passenger cars that get 4 or 5, it was better then most of the mid-size SUV's.

You don't have to like it because you don't drive it. So laugh I don't really care.

wdlove

Apr 19, 2003, 12:42 PM

Those of us that are tall have to stick together. Automakers don't make too many cars that are a nice fit. I think that it's great the dukestreet has brought this to our attention! ;)

Tommy & Ray from Cartalk have also recommended the Honda Element! We listen to them on 89.7 FM here in Boston. It gave my wife encouragement to hear their recommendation! :)

http://cartalk.cars.com/

MacFan25

Apr 19, 2003, 05:50 PM

Originally posted by MacBandit
We're kind of hoping they come out with color matched body panels on a special model.
Yeah, that might make it look nicer. I saw a blue Element tonight. They are starting to grow on me a little bit. :D

jelloshotsrule

Apr 19, 2003, 08:51 PM

Originally posted by dukestreet
That was totally unnecessary - come on jello - if you don't have anything to say you're better off not saying anything. :rolleyes:

thanks ma

actually, i made a joke, which you even found funny (ie, mortuary). then you went on to reiterate that you don't care what i think. which i find to be obvious. had you cared what i thought you'd have checked with me before the purchase. so, your post was just as pointless.

thank you.

MacBandit

Apr 23, 2003, 02:41 AM

I personally feel that if you actually see and play with a Honda Element it will grow on you. Especially once you have seen some one with some of the options on it.

With that said I am sure all of you have seen this but here it is again. I really like the body in all one color I think this looks really really good.

Oh, and buy the way for those that don't know the on board computer is a Mac running OSX.

http://www.autointell.com/asian_companies/honda_motor/honda-studio-e/honda-studio-e-concept-2003.htm

amnesiac1984

Apr 23, 2003, 05:52 AM

I have to agree with jello in that in that pic it does look a bit like a hurse (sp?).

If I were to get an SUV as you americans call them, I'd get the new volvo one, its been reviewed as the best 4x4 (as we call them) by most UK car magazines, and some have even said its the best 4x4 they've ever drvien by a long way, it looks good and is safe. However I tend to disagree with SUV's on principle. People still don't care enough about others safety and the environment, if they did we'd all be driving small fuel efficient cars like a lot of us do here in Europe. I used to laugh at the canyonero from the simpsons thinking what a great but of hyperbole, then someone in my village got a Ford F350 imported from the states. Jeez its almost two english lanes wide, it sounds like an Artic Lorry coming round the corner, it must have some kind of 7 or 8 litre diesel engine and its massive. Much bigger than any SUV/Truck you can buy in this country. Then to top it off, the guys who've come over from canade to build our viceroy home ((see pics here) (http://homepage.mac.com/idioteque/PhotoAlbum3.html) informed me as it drove past saying, "nah ours is like that but bigger, you know you need enough room for all the family, we have the six seater cab and a much longer bed on the back" I mean jesus christ, he says he can't live without having that much space, I'm sure he could if fuel prices were as high as they are in this country.

guitargeek

Apr 23, 2003, 06:00 AM

If I were to get an SUV as you americans call them, I'd get the new volvo one, its been reviewed as the best 4x4 (as we call them) by most UK car magazines, and some have even said its the best 4x4 they've ever drvien by a long way, it looks good and is safe.

Don't do it!! Volvo has REALLY gone downhill. My mom has a 98 V70 AWD, and with only 100,000 miles on it, it's falling apart. It squeaks, creaks, and is in the shop at least once a month for something not so minor.

I used to love Volvo until she got that car.

amnesiac1984

Apr 23, 2003, 06:03 AM

Originally posted by guitargeek
Don't do it!! Volvo has REALLY gone downhill. My mom has a 98 V70 AWD, and with only 100,000 miles on it, it's falling apart. It squeaks, creaks, and is in the shop at least once a month for something not so minor.

I used to love Volvo until she got that car.

Don't worry, I'm a student , not about to buy a new car, but I know lots of people with very very nice new volvos that are doing very well. Anyway, I started a new thread about my new house with some pics, go check it out here (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25097)

G4scott

Apr 23, 2003, 07:33 AM

Originally posted by amnesiac1984
I have to agree with jello in that in that pic it does look a bit like a hurse (sp?).

If I were to get an SUV as you americans call them, I'd get the new volvo one, its been reviewed as the best 4x4 (as we call them) by most UK car magazines, and some have even said its the best 4x4 they've ever drvien by a long way, it looks good and is safe. However I tend to disagree with SUV's on principle. People still don't care enough about others safety and the environment, if they did we'd all be driving small fuel efficient cars like a lot of us do here in Europe. I used to laugh at the canyonero from the simpsons thinking what a great but of hyperbole, then someone in my village got a Ford F350 imported from the states. Jeez its almost two english lanes wide, it sounds like an Artic Lorry coming round the corner, it must have some kind of 7 or 8 litre diesel engine and its massive. Much bigger than any SUV/Truck you can buy in this country. Then to top it off, the guys who've come over from canade to build our viceroy home ((see pics here) (http://homepage.mac.com/idioteque/PhotoAlbum3.html) informed me as it drove past saying, "nah ours is like that but bigger, you know you need enough room for all the family, we have the six seater cab and a much longer bed on the back" I mean jesus christ, he says he can't live without having that much space, I'm sure he could if fuel prices were as high as they are in this country.

Heh, you met a ford F-350... In Texas, every third car is a big truck with a V8, either diesel or gas. Our lanes are as wide as can be too (of course, we have lots of open space too.) Many people actually use them for their work, like hauling trailers, carrying supplies, and going off road on their ranches, or wherever they work. There are some people who get them just to have them, and show off... I'll carry my camera around today, and show you some of the cars that just go to my school. You'll be amazed...

Mr. Anderson

Apr 23, 2003, 08:16 AM

Originally posted by MacBandit

With that said I am sure all of you have seen this but here it is again. I really like the body in all one color I think this looks really really good.

Damn!!! Hadn't seen that and I have to say its pretty damn slick. I actually like that a bit better than the current Element. Looks like there might be a few things down the road for Honda here.

I definitely like the single color scheme and the fact that its got a 190HP engine.....

D

MacBandit

Apr 23, 2003, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by amnesiac1984
I have to agree with jello in that in that pic it does look a bit like a hurse (sp?).

If I were to get an SUV as you americans call them, I'd get the new volvo one, its been reviewed as the best 4x4 (as we call them) by most UK car magazines, and some have even said its the best 4x4 they've ever driven by a long way, it looks good and is safe. However I tend to disagree with SUV's on principle. People still don't care enough about others safety and the environment, if they did we'd all be driving small fuel efficient cars like a lot of us do here in Europe. I used to laugh at the canyonero from the simpsons thinking what a great but of hyperbole, then someone in my village got a Ford F350 imported from the states. Jeez its almost two english lanes wide, it sounds like an Artic Lorry coming round the corner, it must have some kind of 7 or 8 litre diesel engine and its massive. Much bigger than any SUV/Truck you can buy in this country. Then to top it off, the guys who've come over from canade to build our viceroy home ((see pics here) (http://homepage.mac.com/idioteque/PhotoAlbum3.html) informed me as it drove past saying, "nah ours is like that but bigger, you know you need enough room for all the family, we have the six seater cab and a much longer bed on the back" I mean jesus christ, he says he can't live without having that much space, I'm sure he could if fuel prices were as high as they are in this country.

I think the problem here is coming from people comparing the Element to an SUV. It isn't an SUV it's more like a very roomy car. It physically isn't very big on the outside except for it's height. If anything it's closest to a mini-van but much much better.

The Simpsons episodes with the Canyonero in it were right on the money. Most people in the world can't even imagine the size of these new cars and for most people at least here in the Pacific NorthWest they are just status symbols. They don't ever carry anything in them and rarely have a passenger in them. A friend of mine knows a group of guys that have the biggest Fords and Dodges money can buy then they put about 50k into them to raise them 3 feet and chrome them and do all sorts of things to them. Once they are done with them they are totally impractical. They don't fit anywhere. What I am mostly sick of is that there is no unified bumper height so that small cars can't get jammed under these behemoths. Also there should be better drivers training for people that buy them and an evaluation on if they are actually going to use them for practical applications. Last but not least please enforce parking laws. People park them in compact spots and not only take two parking spots but the gut across from them can't get out because they vehicle sticks so far out into the path.

Mr. Anderson

Apr 23, 2003, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by MacBandit
I think the problem here is coming from people comparing the Element to an SUV. It isn't an SUV it's more like a very roomy car. It physically isn't very big on the outside except for it's height. If anything it's closest to a mini-van but much much better.

I'd have to agree - although saying its a mini-van is not quite right either. It is different from a mini-van for all the right reasons, yet roomy enough to be much more than a car. Its a different approach for people who don't want a mini-van, need the room, and don't want a Ford Excessive....:D

D

MacBandit

Apr 23, 2003, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by dukestreet
I'd have to agree - although saying its a mini-van is not quite right either. It is different from a mini-van for all the right reasons, yet roomy enough to be much more than a car. Its a different approach for people who don't want a mini-van, need the room, and don't want a Ford Excessive....:D

D

Honda has basically once again created a new class of vehicles. It has the room of a mini-van, the road going skills of a car, the utility of a truck/suv, and is not only fairly fuel efficient and produces very low pollutants, it also meets the highest crash rating. What would you call it. Maybe a SAA or SAC. Sport Activity Automobile or Sport Activity Car.

Mr. Anderson

Apr 23, 2003, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by MacBandit
Honda has basically once again created a new class of vehicles. It has the room of a mini-van, the road going skills of a car, the utility of a truck/suv, and is not only fairly fuel efficient and produces very low pollutants, it also meets the highest crash rating. What would you call it. Maybe a SAA or SAC. Sport Activity Automobile or Sport Activity Car.

Well, the Aztec and the XTerra are somewhat simillar, but they're much more SUV like than the Element. The PT Cruiser is a little more simillar to the Element, especially the city version you posted, but the Element has a few more options.....

It will be interesting to see if any other car makers follow suite.

Nissan, Izuzu, Ifinity have those new SUV like performance oriented vehicles. That's another 'life style' option.

D

Warren

Apr 23, 2003, 01:56 PM

This is the coolest new SUV I have heard about in along time. Called the touareg.

Available with a 300hp V10 turbo diesel in europe now and hopefully here in the states in a year or so. averages 25mpg!!!

based on the porche cayenne suspensiona nd 4 wheel drive system.

air suspension can go from 6.9in to 11.8 in of ground clearance.

VW designers wanted it to compete with land rover off road and the BMW X5 on road.

and it can tow 7700lbs(witht he 310hp V8 which is a typical gus hog)

Only bad thing is $$$$ starts in the upper 30s.

MacBandit

Apr 23, 2003, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by dukestreet
Well, the Aztec and the XTerra are somewhat simillar, but they're much more SUV like than the Element. The PT Cruiser is a little more simillar to the Element, especially the city version you posted, but the Element has a few more options.....

It will be interesting to see if any other car makers follow suite.

Nissan, Izuzu, Ifinity have those new SUV like performance oriented vehicles. That's another 'life style' option.

D

You're right about the Aztec but the XTerra is definitely an SUV along the lines of an Toyota 4Runner. The problem with the Asstec comparison though is that it definitely has a mini-van chasis. On the other hand the PT cruiser is more retro then functional which is the opposite of the Element where functionality is what it's all about.

maradong

Apr 23, 2003, 02:01 PM

are diesel/gasoline motors uncommon in the us?
just wondering. they got that wonderful torque, and are really fast nowadays...

MacBandit

Apr 23, 2003, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by maradong
are diesel/gasoline motors uncommon in the us?
just wondering. they got that wonderful torque, and are really fast nowadays...

They are for automobiles. They are quite common for big trucks and this is part of the stigma that the car manufacturers have to shake. Diesel = big noisy truck. The problem at the moment though is that Diesel is as much or more expensive then gasoline here.

Mr. Anderson

Apr 23, 2003, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by MacBandit
They are for automobiles. They are quite common for big trucks and this is part of the stigma that the car manufacturers have to shake. Diesel = big noisy truck. The problem at the moment though is that Diesel is as much or more expensive then gasoline here. Diesel isn't that much more, just 10 cents or so, but its much more efficient. It'd be nice to see more diesel engines, but one other problem is that many gas stations don't actually carry diesel.....

As for the Asstek/XTerra/PT Cruiser issues, I agree - but I was pointing out some simillarities.

The Element is defining its own class and I really like it.

D

jelloshotsrule

Apr 23, 2003, 03:57 PM

diesel is often times cheaper. and if you look at the comparison... 32 mpg gas car vs a 45+ mpg diesel version of the same car (i have experience with the vw jetta), the price is clearly a wash, if not coming out ahead. it's also available at a good % of gas stations. especially ones on highways that get frequent truckers.

you are right about the stigma that diesel=bad because of the noisy gross trucks. fact is that the trucks don't have the environmental restrictions on them as much as cars do (though i would argue they probably should), so a diesel burning car will burn it cleaner than a truck. that said, it doesn't burn as cleanly as "regular" gas (as far as i understand it) and so while a diesel car gets about the same mpg as some of the new hybrids (that is, ~ 50 mpg), i'd say that the cleaner burning unleaded gas in conjunction with the electric aspect makes for a better set up

but as an engineering friend of mine pointed out, there's more to it than pure mpg, if the engine is not burning as efficiently as it could be... that is, a bigger engine might not have the ability to get as high an mpg, even at 100% efficiency... so the work should be towards a higher efficiency rating, which would lead to higher mpg. rather than just trying to eek as many mpg out of it as possible

i like to ramble.

DakotaGuy

Apr 23, 2003, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by MacBandit
You're right about the Aztec but the XTerra is definitely an SUV along the lines of an Toyota 4Runner. The problem with the Asstec comparison though is that it definitely has a mini-van chasis. On the other hand the PT cruiser is more retro then functional which is the opposite of the Element where functionality is what it's all about.

I think we will be seeing more multipurpose vehicles like this, style will be different and as you said many will end up being based loosly on a minivan like the Aztec and Rendezvous. Chrysler now has the Pacifica and Ford will have the Freestyle next year. Should be interesting to see which ones make it and which ones fail. AWD seems to be available on all of them. The Pacifica seems to be geared more to luxury then the others. I have camped in my SUV and for that you have to give it to the Aztec and the versatile "tent package"!!!;o)

MacBandit

Apr 23, 2003, 09:49 PM

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
I think we will be seeing more multipurpose vehicles like this, style will be different and as you said many will end up being based loosly on a minivan like the Aztec and Rendezvous. Chrysler now has the Pacifica and Ford will have the Freestyle next year. Should be interesting to see which ones make it and which ones fail. AWD seems to be available on all of them. The Pacifica seems to be geared more to luxury then the others. I have camped in my SUV and for that you have to give it to the Aztec and the versatile "tent package"!!!;o)

Ah, but the Element has the tent package too and much much more.

MacBandit

Apr 23, 2003, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
diesel is often times cheaper. and if you look at the comparison... 32 mpg gas car vs a 45+ mpg diesel version of the same car (i have experience with the vw jetta), the price is clearly a wash, if not coming out ahead. it's also available at a good % of gas stations. especially ones on highways that get frequent truckers.

you are right about the stigma that diesel=bad because of the noisy gross trucks. fact is that the trucks don't have the environmental restrictions on them as much as cars do (though i would argue they probably should), so a diesel burning car will burn it cleaner than a truck. that said, it doesn't burn as cleanly as "regular" gas (as far as i understand it) and so while a diesel car gets about the same mpg as some of the new hybrids (that is, ~ 50 mpg), i'd say that the cleaner burning unleaded gas in conjunction with the electric aspect makes for a better set up

but as an engineering friend of mine pointed out, there's more to it than pure mpg, if the engine is not burning as efficiently as it could be... that is, a bigger engine might not have the ability to get as high an mpg, even at 100% efficiency... so the work should be towards a higher efficiency rating, which would lead to higher mpg. rather than just trying to eek as many mpg out of it as possible

i like to ramble.

My big question about diesels is that they use to require more maintenance. This can truly be seen in some of the older diesel Mercedes and VWs that haven't been maintained. They cough and spit soot and stink horribly. The gas versions of the same cars with the same lack of maintenance just continue to chug along.

jelloshotsrule

Apr 23, 2003, 10:10 PM

Originally posted by MacBandit
My big question about diesels is that they use to require more maintenance. This can truly be seen in some of the older diesel Mercedes and VWs that haven't been maintained. They cough and spit soot and stink horribly. The gas versions of the same cars with the same lack of maintenance just continue to chug along.

yeah, i don't know much about the engineering behind it... but my bro's jetta is about 5 years old and is going strong at this point.... so i guess we'll see. he will probably get a hybrid before too long though. so perhaps we won't.

the other thing is, as diesel CARS become more common (as it seems they are now), then hopefully the efficiency and engineering behind them will improve to the point that they'll run just as strong or stronger...

MacBandit

Apr 24, 2003, 12:44 AM

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
yeah, i don't know much about the engineering behind it... but my bro's jetta is about 5 years old and is going strong at this point.... so i guess we'll see. he will probably get a hybrid before too long though. so perhaps we won't.

the other thing is, as diesel CARS become more common (as it seems they are now), then hopefully the efficiency and engineering behind them will improve to the point that they'll run just as strong or stronger...

It is really strange for me to say this because I promote clean cars so much but avoid hybrids. At least for now. If you are interested in one just check into the long term maintenance. Most of them have a battery replacement and reconditioning required around 6 years. This usually costs between 5-10k.

Mr. Anderson

Apr 24, 2003, 07:41 AM

Originally posted by MacBandit
It is really strange for me to say this because I promote clean cars so much but avoid hybrids. At least for now. If you are interested in one just check into the long term maintenance. Most of them have a battery replacement and reconditioning required around 6 years. This usually costs between 5-10k.

Hybrid cars are a stop gap until we actually get viable and mass produced fuel cell cars. That's going to be the future. The only thing is its going to take a while to get there.

I've seen some prototypes online and they really look cool, with a huge potential. But the best part about it is that the engine is contained not in the front (or rear) but underneith. So that the driver and passengers sit on top of a frame that effectively is a 8" high box with wheels. That leaves all that space for designing a enclosure - fuel cell cars are going to look a lot different than any gas powered vehicle....

D

guitargeek

Apr 24, 2003, 09:25 AM

I've seen some prototypes online and they really look cool, with a huge potential. But the best part about it is that the engine is contained not in the front (or rear) but underneith. So that the driver and passengers sit on top of a frame that effectively is a 8" high box with wheels. That leaves all that space for designing a enclosure - fuel cell cars are going to look a lot different than any gas powered vehicle....

As long as I can get one with 450 horsepower and it sounds like a big block Chevy with an exhaust leak, I'll buy one :D

Mr. Anderson

Apr 24, 2003, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by guitargeek
As long as I can get one with 450 horsepower and it sounds like a big block Chevy with an exhaust leak, I'll buy one :D

ha, that won't happen - they're electric, so the motors are much quieter - faster acceleration, but I'm not sure at the overall performance.

Best to do a google search if you want to know more.

D

3rdpath

Apr 24, 2003, 09:56 AM

congrats on the new element...i really liked them when i saw them at the auto show.

want to drive one to see how it feels...i like the utilitarian aspect of it. and the whole seat folding thing is brilliant.

i think it's looks are fun and funky...kinda like a modern bread truck.

let me know how it drives in snow with the AWD if you guys have any more of the nasty weather. thats my main concern since we'd be taking up to the mountains.

-hh

Apr 24, 2003, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by G4scott
While the US's economy may be dependent on our car companies, they have lots of catching up to do...If i had to buy a work truck, or a car with a big, powerful engine, I would go with an american company.

And the keyword is "HAD" to buy.

The fallacy of many buyers today is that they are not buying what they need, but what they want.

Now I don't want to say that its not your right to buy what you want, but instead, point out that its also my right (1st Amendment) to express my personal opinions as to what I think someone's motiations were for buying what they did. In the specific case of SUV's, it is a fad that includes elements of poseurism to compensate for personal insecurity...JMHO!

Oh, and abercrombieboy, while you may claim that SUV's are not any more dangerous than 18-wheelers, you must remember that to drive an 18-wheeler, you must have a certain license. Many SUV drivers are used to smaller cars, and don't know how to handle them under adverse conditions...SUV's in the wrong hands are very dangerous. More and more people who can live with smaller cars are opting to go with SUV's because they think they'll be safer.

This is really a quite complicated subject.

Suffice to say that the higher risk from 18 wheelers is considered socially acceptable because they are an integral and necessary element of our economy, whereas most SUV's are purely personal self-indulgence, which while Societally we encourage individualism, the concept of "your freedoms stop at the tip of my nose" applies.

FWIW, if you want to get into specifics on the Honda Element, I see that it has standard airbags, but lacks head and shoulder airbags, as well as any airbags for its back seat passengers. My year-old non-SUV has all of these bases covered (8 bags total), so if you want to argue that SUV=Safety, I will have to respectfully disagree.

Bottom line is that the quality and thoroughness of Engineering elements trumps simple advantage of mass that's generally attributed as a "feature" to SUV's.

FWIW, if you really want to avoid some of the most common pitfalls in this discussion area, make sure to normalize your comparison baseline - - this means that you don't compare a $40K SUV to a $10K econobox: you base your comparisons on equal MSRP's.

There are actually some technical reasons why SUV's are actually significantly less safe than equivalent automotive alternatives in certain not uncommon failure modes - two prominent examples are hitting fixed objects (due to higher rigidity) and increased rollover incidence risk (due to higher CG).

And to prevent any flames on my comments, let me state again: if you want to go buy an SUV as a toy, be my guest.

My advise is to be honest with ourselves and freely admit that "wants" aren't the same as "needs" and that most of us buy a lot more vehicle than we really "need" (myself included).

What is disingenuous is to claim that you really need XYZ when its really just something that you want. If you understand what I mean, then you can see that one of the most common examples of this is vehicle color selection.

-hh

Mr. Anderson

Apr 24, 2003, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by 3rdpath

let me know how it drives in snow with the AWD if you guys have any more of the nasty weather. thats my main concern since we'd be taking up to the mountains.

I can't wait to try it out in the snow, but that's going to be a while before I get a chance. I might try it on sand this summer at the beach though....

D

MacBandit

Apr 24, 2003, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by -hh
And the keyword is "HAD" to buy.

The fallacy of many buyers today is that they are not buying what they need, but what they want.

Now I don't want to say that its not your right to buy what you want, but instead, point out that its also my right (1st Amendment) to express my personal opinions as to what I think someone's motiations were for buying what they did. In the specific case of SUV's, it is a fad that includes elements of poseurism to compensate for personal insecurity...JMHO!

This is really a quite complicated subject.

Suffice to say that the higher risk from 18 wheelers is considered socially acceptable because they are an integral and necessary element of our economy, whereas most SUV's are purely personal self-indulgence, which while Societally we encourage individualism, the concept of "your freedoms stop at the tip of my nose" applies.

FWIW, if you want to get into specifics on the Honda Element, I see that it has standard airbags, but lacks head and shoulder airbags, as well as any airbags for its back seat passengers. My year-old non-SUV has all of these bases covered (8 bags total), so if you want to argue that SUV=Safety, I will have to respectfully disagree.

Bottom line is that the quality and thoroughness of Engineering elements trumps simple advantage of mass that's generally attributed as a "feature" to SUV's.

FWIW, if you really want to avoid some of the most common pitfalls in this discussion area, make sure to normalize your comparison baseline - - this means that you don't compare a $40K SUV to a $10K econobox: you base your comparisons on equal MSRP's.

There are actually some technical reasons why SUV's are actually significantly less safe than equivalent automotive alternatives in certain not uncommon failure modes - two prominent examples are hitting fixed objects (due to higher rigidity) and increased rollover incidence risk (due to higher CG).

And to prevent any flames on my comments, let me state again: if you want to go buy an SUV as a toy, be my guest.

My advise is to be honest with ourselves and freely admit that "wants" aren't the same as "needs" and that most of us buy a lot more vehicle than we really "need" (myself included).

What is disingenuous is to claim that you really need XYZ when its really just something that you want. If you understand what I mean, then you can see that one of the most common examples of this is vehicle color selection.

-hh

These are all really good points though once again you are stating the Element is an SUV which is not correct. Also the shoulder/side airbags for the front driver and passenger are options. The vehicle still meets the highest crash safety standard though.

I'm glad you put this post together as it basically puts all my thoughts from misc. posts in this thread together into one stream of thought. Thanks.

jelloshotsrule

Apr 24, 2003, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by -hh
And the keyword is "HAD" to buy.
.....
-hh

very well said! :)

-hh

Apr 25, 2003, 07:53 AM

Originally posted by MacBandit
These are all really good points though once again you are stating the Element is an SUV which is not correct. Also the shoulder/side airbags for the front driver and passenger are options. The vehicle still meets the highest crash safety standard though.

Two items, second first: I apologize - I was unaware that there were optional additional 'bags for the Element - - I didn't see mention of them under Edmund's "Safety Features" page. I hope that these options were purchased.

Second, the definition of an SUV is a funny thing. While many people say its not a "REAL" SUV unless its built on a ladder frame of a Light Truck (LTV), the DOT actually has an official LTV definition that's used for the manufacturers to catagorize their vehicles to see which CAFE group standard they contribute towards.

I had a .jpg copy of the rules online, but I find today that the file's corrupted (argh).

In any event, what's interesting about this all is that the PT Cruiser is a Light Truck according to the DOT, even though its built on the Neon's unibody and is really nothing more than a compact station wagon.

Personally, my definition of an SUV is oversimplistic: if it is built on a truck frame, its definitely an SUV. If its built on a unibody and is "big and boxy" (and thus truck-like), it doesn't matter, because its ugly.

FWIW, when it comes to the question of vehicular utility, my experience has been that when I need the occasional larger vehicle for hauling sheetrock home or whatever, I can rent one for $20 for the 75 minutes that the errand takes either at Home Depot or from Lowes, or just simply pay for delivery, such as when I installed 3 pallets of sod for a new lawn (that's roughly 6 full GMC Suburban-loads).

And when it comes to outdoorsy activities like camping, well, that has to be negotated with my wife. Suffice to say that unless it has real walls, she's not going; here's the most rustic "camp" that my wife has tolerated to date:

http://www.denaliwildernesslodge.com/images/lodge-mountain.jpg

-hh

MacBandit

Apr 25, 2003, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by -hh
Two items, second first: I apologize - I was unaware that there were optional additional 'bags for the Element - - I didn't see mention of them under Edmund's "Safety Features" page. I hope that these options were purchased.

Second, the definition of an SUV is a funny thing. While many people say its not a "REAL" SUV unless its built on a ladder frame of a Light Truck (LTV), the DOT actually has an official LTV definition that's used for the manufacturers to catagorize their vehicles to see which CAFE group standard they contribute towards.

I had a .jpg copy of the rules online, but I find today that the file's corrupted (argh).

In any event, what's interesting about this all is that the PT Cruiser is a Light Truck according to the DOT, even though its built on the Neon's unibody and is really nothing more than a compact station wagon.

Personally, my definition of an SUV is oversimplistic: if it is built on a truck frame, its definitely an SUV. If its built on a unibody and is "big and boxy" (and thus truck-like), it doesn't matter, because its ugly.

FWIW, when it comes to the question of vehicular utility, my experience has been that when I need the occasional larger vehicle for hauling sheetrock home or whatever, I can rent one for $20 for the 75 minutes that the errand takes either at Home Depot or from Lowes, or just simply pay for delivery, such as when I installed 3 pallets of sod for a new lawn (that's roughly 6 full GMC Suburban-loads).

Would you also consider a van or a mini-van an SUV since they are big and boxy?

I agree on the delivery thing. But it is also nice to be able to haul one 2x4 if you have to. Not really worth renting or paying to have it delivered in that case. We do a lot of car camping and a bit of back packing. This would be really nice to take skiiing and sleep in the vehicle or take the gear with us and go snow camping the night before. Yes, I camp year round. There's nothing like camping when there's 5 feet of snow on the ground. Unless you have snow camped far far away from any town you probably don't know what it means to be in complete silence and peace.

I wouldn't use this vehicle for snow camping. What really intrigues me about it is how easy it is for passengers to get in and out of the back seats. It also makes it easy to put child seats in it.

jayb2000

Apr 25, 2003, 01:28 PM

Those look pretty cool for certain uses.
I see alot of surfers using them.

As regards the whole SUV/Car?American/Japanese issue.
I have Jeep Wrangler and a VW Passat Wagon.

I am selling the Jeep because I can't justify 18mpg when we are invading (or premptively striking) other countries over oil.
I love going off-road (and not just rolling farm land, but rocks and puddles and narrow rutted trails, etc.) but I can get a dirt bike and have just as much fun while getting far better mileage.
Looking at either a hybrid or the Jetta TDI. They get similar mileage, and while the TDI is not quite as clean, using a hybird in cold weather really effects the mileage, so the TDI actually makes more sense.

I know some people want an SUV for snow (which is silly because I learned to drive in the snow without 4wd and there is very little difference if you know what you are doing).

As for towing - I think and SUV or Truck makes great sense, but for the other 90% of the time, its just a waste of space, gas, and safery.

I wish we would add a 1 or 2 dollar per gallon gas tax that went solely to bulding good mass transit and paying off the debt.

I think the people in cities that drive hummers would either think twice about buying them or would at least be contributing something with their $100 fillups.

wdlove

Apr 25, 2003, 05:28 PM

My wife went to our local Honda dealer today, Clair. Took a test drive in a blue Element, said she is interested in the orange. Fully loaded it's~$21,000. The interior is great, it will be very useful to carry her medical equipment. I didn't try the drivers side since I don't drive. Sitting in the passengers seat with it back all the way my shins hit the glove compartment! :( But by lowering the back seat it's OK! ;) Will let you know what she decides!

guitargeek

Apr 25, 2003, 08:10 PM

ha, that won't happen - they're electric, so the motors are much quieter - faster acceleration, but I'm not sure at the overall performance.

Best to do a google search if you want to know more.

From what I read, it looks as though they're actually slower in acceleration. There's a chart at this (http://www.transportation.anl.gov/assessments/ct21-EPRI.html) website. If my car took 9.3 seconds to get to 60 MPH, I think I'd puke.

If an alternate fuel is to be used, it shouldn't be electricity, since electricity still has to get manufactured in some way, whether it be a Coal Plant, Gas, hydro (which there aren't very many of in comparison to other facilities), or nuclear (and I think a lot of people would rather drill a hole in their head than find out their electricity comes from nuclear). No matter what, those plants are polluting (ok, hydro doesn't, but like I said, there's not enough of them around to power the country).

I don't know much about the fuel cell idea, so I won't comment on those.

MacFan25

Apr 25, 2003, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by wdlove
I didn't try the drivers side since I don't drive.
You mean you don't have a license?

BTW, hopefully your wife will find her a nice car! :D

wdlove

Apr 25, 2003, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by MacFan25
You mean you don't have a license?

BTW, hopefully your wife will find her a nice car! :D

I have a drivers license, just not currently driving. Boston is a difficult place to drive. Alot of people I know say, "It isn't fun anymore." ;)

guitargeek

Apr 25, 2003, 09:16 PM

I have a drivers license, just not currently driving. Boston is a difficult place to drive. Alot of people I know say, "It isn't fun anymore."

Bah, you're just an amatuer ;)

No, I hear you, I went into Boston recently to see King Crimson at the Orpheum, and although I've driven in many other cities, like Providence and something else in Connecticut (Hartford? I don't really know; it's just on the way to my girlfriend's old stomping grounds), this was my first actual Boston driving experience. It sucked. I get frustrated anyways when people don't know how the **** to drive a car, but it seems to be an art in Bean town. I suddenly realized the value of owning a very small, old, disrepaired car, because in a place like that, it's just going to get trashed anyways.

Massachusetts drivers in general are really bad, though. The test to get your license is a JOKE. I could have passed even if I were drunk.

GeneR

Apr 26, 2003, 01:07 AM

Why do I get the sneaky suspicion that when this thread is finally concluded, D's new car will be quite old? :D

guitargeek

Apr 26, 2003, 06:23 AM

Why do I get the sneaky suspicion that when this thread is finally concluded, D's new car will be quite old?

Then he won't have to start a new thread when he trades up! :p

Backtothemac

Apr 26, 2003, 10:40 AM

Hey Duke, My wifes mom just got one of those as well. Very cool SUV.

Mr. Anderson

Apr 26, 2003, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Hey Duke, My wifes mom just got one of those as well. Very cool SUV.

That's great. I actually got to drive it a bit today (wife's car so she gets it during the week). And I fixed up the XM Radio and adjusted the sound. Its friggin great! I love having a subwoofer in the car! :D

D

DaedalusDE

Apr 26, 2003, 09:50 PM

I'm absolutely in love with that car, I would definitely love for it to be my first car... BTW has anyone seen the specs on the Studio E version of the car?

http://www.autointell.com/asian_companies/honda_motor/honda-studio-e/honda-studio-e-concept-2003.htm

I spy with my little eye, something that has an iMac built into the side of the car!!

Now how hot is that?

-hh

Apr 28, 2003, 07:40 AM

Originally posted by MacBandit
Would you also consider a van or a mini-van an SUV since they are big and boxy?

Yes, I'd consider one (if I needed it), but I should point out that there's how a vehicle looks because of its function, and then there's how it looks because of its form. From a form standpoint, I personally find the current "slabby" trend to be ugly (YMMV). I'm also reluctant to embrace it because a UK safety study done around ten years ago found that slabby boxes with sharp edges had a safety shortcoming due to their higher vulnerability in crosswinds to being blown off-course, or even blown over. Both factors encourage me personally to stick with vehicles that have better functionality - - which here means having rounded edges to minimize the safety problem of being boxy when big.

I agree on the delivery thing. But it is also nice to be able to haul one 2x4 if you have to. Not really worth renting or paying to have it delivered in that case.]

Sure. And this is where I'm personally mystified as to why Americans loathe hatchbacks. I've never owned a hatchback that couldn't easily swallow a couple of 8ft 2x4's inside. My hatch went to the hardware store yesterday and brought back a 10 ft section of 0.5" PVC pipe (it bends a little), hatch closed.

Overall, I find people's utilization of their vehicles' utility potential to be a quite interesting study in contradictions. For example, to own a big SUV "for its utility" and then refuse to get it dirty.

I've gotten a kick out of watching people shop for their Christmas tree. I'll just open my hatch, toss a tree in back, slam it shut and drive off - - often to the dirty looks of the bystander wife who's been watching her husband for the past 15 minutes figuring out how to lash their tree to the top of their 7ft-off-the-ground SUV because they won't drop the seat and toss it inside. Amazing.

We do a lot of car camping and a bit of back packing. This would be really nice to take skiiing and sleep in the vehicle or take the gear with us and go snow camping the night before.

Enjoy it while you're young :-)

FWIW, a coworker is an USSA Official and drives to over 20 ski competitions/year. The vehicle that he claims is "perfect" is last year's leftover full size conversion van. These contain more room than most SUV's and as a leftover, they're affordable. The only thing that they lack is 4WD, but he's not had a problem with that over the past 20+ years.

Unless you have snow camped far far away from any town you probably don't know what it means to be in complete silence and peace.

Solitude comes in different forms. Spelunking (caving) gives you complete silence and darkness. Getting back on the trails, even if its just Day Hiking (http://www.webspan.net/~hummer/pic/rainbow8rt.jpg), gets you away from the noise of most things (except aircraft, unfortunately). Scuba Diving (http://www.webspan.net/~hummer/pic/snapper92193.jpg) has the noise of your air bubbles, and the mesmerizing clicks of shrimp, but offers release from the shackles of gravity...

-hh

MacBandit

Apr 28, 2003, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by -hh
Yes, I'd consider one (if I needed it), but I should point out that there's how a vehicle looks because of its function, and then there's how it looks because of its form. From a form standpoint, I personally find the current "slabby" trend to be ugly (YMMV). I'm also reluctant to embrace it because a UK safety study done around ten years ago found that slabby boxes with sharp edges had a safety shortcoming due to their higher vulnerability in crosswinds to being blown off-course, or even blown over. Both factors encourage me personally to stick with vehicles that have better functionality - - which here means having rounded edges to minimize the safety problem of being boxy when big.

Sure. And this is where I'm personally mystified as to why Americans loathe hatchbacks. I've never owned a hatchback that couldn't easily swallow a couple of 8ft 2x4's inside. My hatch went to the hardware store yesterday and brought back a 10 ft section of 0.5" PVC pipe (it bends a little), hatch closed.

Overall, I find people's utilization of their vehicles' utility potential to be a quite interesting study in contradictions. For example, to own a big SUV "for its utility" and then refuse to get it dirty.

I've gotten a kick out of watching people shop for their Christmas tree. I'll just open my hatch, toss a tree in back, slam it shut and drive off - - often to the dirty looks of the bystander wife who's been watching her husband for the past 15 minutes figuring out how to lash their tree to the top of their 7ft-off-the-ground SUV because they won't drop the seat and toss it inside. Amazing.

Enjoy it while you're young :-)

FWIW, a coworker is an USSA Official and drives to over 20 ski competitions/year. The vehicle that he claims is "perfect" is last year's leftover full size conversion van. These contain more room than most SUV's and as a leftover, they're affordable. The only thing that they lack is 4WD, but he's not had a problem with that over the past 20+ years.

Solitude comes in different forms. Spelunking (caving) gives you complete silence and darkness. Getting back on the trails, even if its just Day Hiking (http://www.webspan.net/~hummer/pic/rainbow8rt.jpg), gets you away from the noise of most things (except aircraft, unfortunately). Scuba Diving (http://www.webspan.net/~hummer/pic/snapper92193.jpg) has the noise of your air bubbles, and the mesmerizing clicks of shrimp, but offers release from the shackles of gravity...

-hh

It's truly amazing how two people from different countries clear across the world can actually be have view so much alike.

I agree that the new square box vehicles are ugly and I also agree that the Element could be more attactive but when you spend some time around it you realize that it looks that way for a reason. The vehicle is truly utilitarian. I happen to personally love hatch-backs and have had serveral and would take another in a heart beat. The problem is is that the American market really limits the selection of hatch backs available.

I also really like full size vans but they tend to either be too soft or to utility orriented. I grew up riding around the west of the US in a full size van and absolutely loved it. The ones we had were the best of both worlds very utilitarian with just enough creature comforts. The problem with a van is they tend to be either gas hogs or underpowered. One or the other due to there size and shape.

I tend to be a person that can't bring myself to have more then one car. At the moment I don't have any I drive my fiancé's. I have multiple motorcycles though. I tend to be very cheap when it comes to transportation and a family vehicle to me has to do as many things as possible as good as can possibly be done. The Corrola is a fine example it can be driven like a sports car but likes long trips. It get's good gas mileage and needs very very little maintenance. The problem with it is it doesn't comfotably hall a family. Also it doesn't take camping in stride. It is limited on space and doesn't have much ground clearance. Here's a photo from this weekend. We went out to my mom and stepdad's ranch in the Oregon outback. It's a 4 hour drive one way I could borrow a 4x4 but it wouldn't be the economical way to go. As you can see by the tires we nearly got stuck getting in and out. This is how we use the car camping and otherwise. You speak about camping while I am young but I come from a family and a group of friends with families that camp year round at least once a month. My dad will take off into the woods on foot and spend a week on his own. This is the type of person I am and we could use a vehicle that will make a good family rig but will still haul the gear and travel in comfort and the Element meets all those requirements. It's not nearly as tippy as you would think and would most likely slide before it rolled.

Yes, there are many way's to get pure solitude and I love spelunking but most of the caves in our area have been closed or are guided only. The other problem with caves is that the ones in our area are all volcanic and they leave a lot to be desired in the scenery department.

I'm glad you joined in on this discussion as you have brought up a lot of good point and while seemingly being opposed to my viewpoint you were actually right with me in nearly every way. It's just that you don't or didn't realize my needs in a vehicle.

-hh

May 1, 2003, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by MacBandit
It's truly amazing how two people from different countries clear across the world can actually be have view so much alike.

Well, we'll credit Apple as the reason :D

(BTW, is Orgeon the "different country", or is it NJ? :-)

I grew up riding around the west of the US in a full size van and absolutely loved it.

I've "done my time" in a Suburban. Did you know that its actually possible to read the entire "Lord of the Rings" in only a week?

I tend to be a person that can't bring myself to have more then one car.

I'd love to have the room for multiple vehicles, but my spouse-enforced limit is two. Currently, they're a Mercedes C230K Coupe (a politically correct euphemism for "hatchback") and a 1985 Porsche 911 Carerra.

http://www.huntzinger.com/pic/cars/c3230rearquarter.jpg

http://www.huntzinger.com/pic/cars/whale.jpg

FWIW, I find it humorous to see the horrified looks I get from people when I refer to either as "just a car". As far as I'm concerned, they were made to be driven and used, not to be put up on some pedestal like a Golden Calf to be worshipped.

I'm glad you joined in on this discussion as you have brought up a lot of good point and while seemingly being opposed to my viewpoint you were actually right with me in nearly every way. It's just that you don't or didn't realize my needs in a vehicle.

Agreed. FWIW, I've found that camping in the East tends to be mostly "10 feet off the campground road" type of stuff. Between limited public lands and those that are public being extensively covered with trees and population densities that drive up utilization, there's not really too much opportunity for drive "a mile thataway" and set up camp pretty much wherever you please. Backpacking has much more freedom, but with permit requirements and designated camping areas, it too is quite controlled. Its all just parts of the overall local environment.

-hh