Apple Eyeing Heat-Electricity Conversion Chip?

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

The president and CEO of Eneco, a "development stage company" that claims to have developed a small chip that can convert heat into electricity, claims that he is in talks with both Apple and Dell regarding his company's technology.

First reported on an IT Week blog "Green Business News" (http://green.itweek.co.uk/2006/11/eneco_details_r.html), Eneco claims that their chips can produce electricity from heat at up to 30% efficiency.

The company says it is already in talks with both Dell and Apple about how the chips could be used in their devices. Initial talks have focused on integrating the heat conversion chips into the device so it can harness the heat generated by processors and turn it into electricity to power fans or other cooling technologies. By harnessing this power the devices, be they initially laptops and handhelds, or later even servers and PCs, should see improved energy efficiency, extended battery life and enhanced performance.

There are issues with the chip, as are to be expected from a development-stage product based on a new technology. At the present time, Eneco hopes to begin production late next year or early 2008.

[amoda]

That's actually pretty cool. And it's a good example of killing a bird with two stones. Not only does it take away the heat but it also uses the energy gained to reduce the heat remaining.

Wish my mbp cd had that in it :(

[WildCowboy]

Interesting concept, but their website (http://www.eneco.com/) scares me away in a hurry. What was that about making a good first impression?

[mgargan1]

hmm... i wonder if they're a public company. If they can get rid of those problems, and what they're talking about actually works, then i think that company's stock will get pretty high

[mgargan1]

Interesting concept, but their website (http://www.eneco.com/) scares me away in a hurry. What was that about making a good first impression?

yea, their website looks like it was from 1998...

[WildCowboy]

hmm... i wonder if they're a public company. If they can get rid of those problems, and what they're talking about actually works, then i think that company's stock will get pretty high

No...they're not public.

[sososowhat]

I want to charge my MacBook from a campfire! Seriously, this is a very cool idea (please forgive the pun).

Brown also sees the chips ultimately replacing batteries altogether. He argues that by linking the modules to a microburner - a catalytic burner that produces between 275 and 600 degrees centigrade – you can heat the chips and generate enough power to run the device.

[aspro]

Sounds like a good idea, can't complain with any increase to battery life!

[bigandy]

That sounds pretty cool - if it could be harnessed to charge from the heat developed by a processor, RAM, or even the battery itself... :)

[mdntcallr]

Wow! what a great concept.

Pretty much like some hybrid cars getting power from when they brake.

[Some_Big_Spoon]

Geeks rarely make purdy websites :-)

Interesting concept, but their website (http://www.eneco.com/) scares me away in a hurry. What was that about making a good first impression?

[EricNau]

It's an interesting concept that could be very useful for many applications - although I'm doubting their current timeline.

[lepidoptera]

Wouldn't using the "extra" electricity to power fans to decrease heat lead to less "extra" electricity???? :rolleyes: I hope they really think this through - and I'm sure they will. Of course powering fans isn't the only use for electricity.

[ibook30]

this tech would have worked great in a powerbook G5......

[PODshady]

This is a really cool idea

[theblotted]

it could be same as flash technology. too expensive for actual implementation.

great idea tho. love recycling.

[danielwsmithee]

This could be very cool if it works. Just slap one of these between your processor and heat sink and get 30% more battery life. Or on desktops force cool your system without liquid.

[backspinner]

a problem will be that it needs a thermal difference to work

[azraq27]

Here's my idea:

Hook up that chip, and then just keep overclocking the thing... you don't have to worry about it overheating and melting, it'll just give you more battery life.

It could go infinitely fast for infinitely long!

There's probably something in there about conduction and efficiency and stuff, but I'll leave that to the engineers

[shawnce]

Hate to say it but the website sure makes the company and product to be a bunch of BS... they make a lot of claims with little to back them up.

They may have a real and useful product but... man they could present it in a much better way.

[justflie]

If they can get it to work, engineers around the world will love them forever. Heat is always such a huge waste in any machinery, from computers to pumps to anything. The cost and environmental savings would be great if this tech (or something like it) can be effectively applied over a broad range of machinery!

[Bosunsfate]

At first read I was going to be skeptical....I mean isn't this just cold fusion?

Having read through the science on this now...we'll this is pretty interesting.

The main hurdle appears to be the actual application of this into some type of consumer device...and that being cost effective at the end of the day.

If this works out..yea, we are talking about some major changes....

Why are these guys in Utah though?

[danielbriggs]

This is nothing new...

I used those devices in last year for my GCSE courwork (15-16 yrs old). I used them in a drinks cooler / heat thingy.

I won't ramble on about my product, but: The devices are called "Thermo electric coolers. i.e. TEC's

And they offer 3 functions.

1. The cool something.
2. They heat something.
3. They produce electricity.

This heat / cooling effect is called the Peltier effect (some French guy) and some people call these things peltiers etc.

They work, buy passing a relativly large current 3-20 amps, depending on wattage. to draw heat from one side to another basically. one side is -10 degrees c. The other is +80 degrees c. However, if you don't power them and instead create a temperature difference, i.e. stick ontop of a hot computer chip. You wil have set up a temperature gradient. So it will generate electricity. Typically you get around 4ma per 1 degree C. So nothing huge, unless they have refined them. So in this case, the bigger the delta T, the more power. I guess it could power a fan then! Seem's easily possilbe, but I wouldn't expect battery life to be much more than 30 mins at most extra. As 1 fan doesn't draw THAT much power!

Still a good idea though!

If anyone else has any questions, on how they work, images, tech drawing, or my product, i'm happy to answer them all!

BTW: Forgot to add, the generating electricity idea, from one of these, is called the "Seebeck Effect"



Dan :-)

[psionic001]

Wouldn't using the "extra" electricity to power fans to decrease heat lead to less "extra" electricity???? :rolleyes: I hope they really think this through - and I'm sure they will. Of course powering fans isn't the only use for electricity.

I think that maybe you could think of this as something that harnesses the heat and slows the power drain from the battery for the same amount of heat produced by the cpu.

Of course they could use the extra power to provide a little more cooling to the chip, but only enough not to take the thermal difference (which generates the power in the first place) away. Now that makes it a lot clearer dosn't it! :confused: :rolleyes:

Another cool idea would be to use one of those microscopic steam turbines. Steam turbines would remove heat and create power at the same time.... or was that some dream I had. :eek:

[ChickenSwartz]

yea, their website looks like it was from 1998...
They need to pick up a Mac and use iWeb. Ha ha.

a problem will be that it needs a thermal difference to work

Which you can achieve by putting these between the processor and the aluminum casing.

[Bosunsfate]

a problem will be that it needs a thermal difference to work

Exactly. Mabye the G5 chips will come back...after all the hotter it gets the better these Thermal Chips will work...;)

[rikers_mailbox]

... sooo, a thermocouple (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermocouple) on a chip? Thermocouples have horrendous efficiency. I don't see how a such a chip in an enclosed environment (like a laptop motherboard) can achieve enough of a thermal gradient to produce enough current to be useful.

I dunno, i'm skeptical.

[Bosunsfate]

Interesting concept, but their website (http://www.eneco.com/) scares me away in a hurry. What was that about making a good first impression?

I find these comments about the website interesting...I guess we care more about a flashy site than a site that just provides the information on what they do in a simple effective way....

I take it that they are spending their money on developing the chip and not on web design. :p

[emw]

Interesting concept, but their website (http://www.eneco.com/) scares me away in a hurry. What was that about making a good first impression?

Maybe the Power Chips (http://www.powerchips.gi/index.shtml) website is more welcoming. Seems like similar technology with a larger potential for energy recovery (70-80%). Hard to believe.

[Bosunsfate]

They work, buy passing a relativly large current 3-20 amps, depending on wattage. to draw heat from one side to another basically. one side is -10 degrees c. The other is +80 degrees c.

This hits what I think is their main hurdle...how do you get these numbers down.

A nearly 100C difference and the amps alone make this really a problem for basic consumer devices..

Now on an industrial scale...

[ChrisA]

This is not really new technology.

For those not wanting to look this up here is a quote from wikipedia

"This effect was first discovered, accidentally, by the German physicist Thomas Johann Seebeck in 1821, who found that a voltage existed between two ends of a metal bar when a temperature gradient ΔT existed in the bar."

These same chips are used by some people as active coolers for CPS and GPS. They are sold as "Thermo-electric cools" (TECs) or "Peltier Devices". I can think of a couple large industrial suppliers of these devices. THey are used in those plug in ice chests and very small desktop fridges too. They are mostly used in the cooling mode but the same device works as a heater or as a power source. They are not expensive. $15 or $20 will get you one that you can play with

This is a very common device what is new is that someone is marketing it to Apple.

[danielbriggs]

This hits what I think is their main hurdle...how do you get these numbers down.

A nearly 100C difference and the amps alone make this really a problem for basic consumer devices..

Now on an industrial scale...

If you want to power the temperature change yourself, you need a high current. But if you want to generate electricity from them, then just connect them into a circuit with out any powersupply i.e. stick a fan's power terminals on that, stick one side of the TEC on a hot chip or cup of tea etc. to setup the delta T. (temp difference) then the fan will start spinning!


Dan :-)

[danielbriggs]

This is not really new technology.

This is a very common device what is new is that someone is marketing it to Apple.

I agree... But sounds nice, but I just don't think it will pay off. Keep a fan spinning 10 mins longer may set you back around £5-10. + add's size an weight.

Nice idea, not practical

[Bosunsfate]

If you want to power the temperature change yourself, you need a high current. But if you want to generate electricity from them, then just connect them into a circuit with out any powersupply i.e. stick a fan's power terminals on that, stick one side of the TEC on a hot chip or cup of tea etc. to setup the delta T. (temp difference) then the fan will start spinning!


Dan :-)

So if I follow this correctly. Since the fan does not draw much, you don't need that large of a temperature differential.

[WildCowboy]

I find these comments about the website interesting...I guess we care more about a flashy site than a site that just provides the information on what they do in a simple effective way....

I take it that they are spending their money on developing the chip and not on web design. :p

In the business world, you need to be able to make a good impression. If you have a flashy website and nothing behind it, you're going nowhere. If you have good substance but poor presentation of it, you can still succeed, but it can be a lot harder than if you've got it presented well.

Sitting down for an hour with GoLive would provide them with a much better front door to the world. Starting a tech company is hard, but it's easier if you excel in all areas of your business. And yes, publicity is one of those areas.

[studiomusic]

Hey, they're just down the road from me... I might just have to go see what they're up to...;)

[Object-X]

Does this mean we might actually see a 3GHz G5 Powerbook? :rolleyes:

[matticus008]

Hook up that chip, and then just keep overclocking the thing... you don't have to worry about it overheating and melting, it'll just give you more battery life.
Maybe this is a joke? The processor will still heat up in the beginning to a given temperature, and if it crosses the safe upper limit, it will be damaged. This technology will take the generated heat and convert it to electricity--it won't make the processor generate less heat.

Wouldn't using the "extra" electricity to power fans to decrease heat lead to less "extra" electricity???? :rolleyes: I hope they really think this through - and I'm sure they will. Of course powering fans isn't the only use for electricity.
Of course it will. But if you're producing 110% power at 102% consumption, that's still an 8% gain. The trick is to ensure that the benefit outweighs the cost (both in price and in additional power drain to power the system) by a large margin. This is the sort of thing that improves with time.

This could be very cool if it works. Just slap one of these between your processor and heat sink and get 30% more battery life. Or on desktops force cool your system without liquid.
You won't get 30% of your electricity back. You'll get up to 30% of the power lost through heat which is accessible to the chip (that is, the portion not lost from convection cooling of the case) and above ambient temperatures. If you're in a warm room, for instance, you'll have much lower performance, since it requires the differential to work. Of course, maybe the information available isn't wholly accurate, but that's my understanding based on the description.

[tech4all]

this tech would have worked great in a powerbook G5......

I know really. I could see the tagline now:

The new PowerBook G5. Power cords are a thing of the past.

Yea, kinda cheesy, but you get the idea. :)

[lorductape]

as cool as it sounds, point being?

[CanadaRAM]

And the first rule of investing is, if a little company 'leaks' the 'fact' that they are 'in discussion' with a major market company, it means they have nothing.

If they were in serious discussions, there would be non-disclosures.

I could be in discussion with Universal about starring in their latest blockbuster movie. I sent them a letter, they sent a rejection form letter. Voila, discussion.

The issue with using such a device in a laptop or whatever, is that there must be a temperature gradient -- that is, there has to be a hot end and a cold end. The hot end is a given, a processor. But you still have to cool the other end of the device, so you still have to have fans/radiators/or whatever to draw heat away from the cold end for the effect to work. Doesn't change the fundamental problem of cooling a machine with limited space and power.

As mentioned earlier, if you want to ACTIVELY cool a CPU with these, it takes the application of a boatload of electricity to do it.

[ChrisA]

Interesting concept, but their website (http://www.eneco.com/) scares me away in a hurry. What was that about making a good first impression?

What is wrong with it? The only thing I see is that they are presenting the Peltier Effect as if it was something they discovered and not already in common use. These chips have been produced on an industrial scale for many years. They don't say this.

Here is another company who has a real product to for sale http://www.melcor.com/ Here is one more - http://www.customthermoelectric.com/ It's a mature technology These guys at eneco seem to be selling a concept and have no product.

But who are they trying to fool? Anyone in a position to buy from eneco would have engineers on staff who certainly would already understand thermoelectrics

[maknik]

As someone pointed out above, Powerchips (http://www.powerchips.gi/index.shtml) seems much neater. Their insulation/conduction effect comes from a cool application of quantum mechanics and nano-etching. However, as they point out--and as I worry for the guys mentioned here--the chip actually insulates as it generates electricity. Thus it would get power from the heat of the CPU, but it also raises the temperature of the CPU by insulating it. I wonder whether these guys would have the same problem (perhaps not if they lose more heat to conduction).

[tech4all]

as cool as it sounds, point being?

I haven't read the whole article yet, but from the sounds of it, it seems as though a laptop can be charged without plugging in it. That is the processor that converts heart to electricity could either charge the battery or provide it's own power to the laptop. That would extend battery life, not sure by how much, but if it is a decent amount, this technology would be great for laptops.

Then again there's the heat issue. While the heat will provide electricity, your going to have to have a decent cooling system, which hopefully wouldn't suck to much power. Or maybe the converted power can be used only for the cooling system leaving the rest for the battery, thus conserving power anyways....just thinking aloud here though. :)

[longofest]

a problem will be that it needs a thermal difference to work

right, and thats one of the concerns that folks have. But if Apple somehow manages to integrate one of these into a heatsink and put it right on a CPU's surface, there will no-doubt be a difference between the surface-temp of the CPU and the other side of the chip.

[shawnce]

You won't get 30% of your electricity back. You'll get up to 30% of the power lost through heat which is accessible to the chip (that is, the portion not lost from convection cooling of the case) and above ambient temperatures. If you're in a warm room, for instance, you'll have much lower performance, since it requires the differential to work. Of course, maybe the information available isn't wholly accurate, but that's my understanding based on the description. Yeah you are in general correct... additionally these types of devices (to date... ones used in the real world) aren't the most efficient devices and require a fairly large temperature gradient.

Hope they can turn out a device for verification.

[Jesus]

This tech, as it has been said before is nothing new, I remember reading a very inforative article in New Scientist about making the ultimate heat ---> energy chip, and there is an alloy that when heated on one side it creates a strong electric current. I think they planned on putting them in cars, by the engine to power electronics in the car. What is new is the idea of putting it by a computers cpu.

[Chef Medeski]

Wouldn't using the "extra" electricity to power fans to decrease heat lead to less "extra" electricity???? :rolleyes: I hope they really think this through - and I'm sure they will. Of course powering fans isn't the only use for electricity.

No because this thing only can produce electricity from a heat difference. If the inside of your computer was all one temperature... guess what no power. Fans are needed to cool the air around the fans thus creating greater differences in heat. So, not only are fans necessary for this to work, but the more the better. This is probably best to merely attach to a current system and add battery life. You could not decrease the cooling. So, its nice. But its not a wonder tool. its merely a bit of extra juice in the battery. Its just like a hybrid. You wont gain any extra efficiency unless your braking hence the average highway MPG of a hybrid, even though its city is stellar. Even then its not a revolution that stopped all oil consumption. Even if everyone drove hybrids, total consumption wouldnt drop by much. Highway driving and traffic are huge factors in consumption and those aren't curbed through hybrids.

[shawnce]

I haven't read the whole article yet, but from the sounds of it, it seems as though a laptop can be charged without plugging in it. That is the processor that converts heart to electricity could either charge the battery or provide it's own power to the laptop. That would extend battery life, not sure by how much, but if it is a decent amount, this technology would be great for laptops.

Then again there's the heat issue. While the heat will provide electricity, your going to have to have a decent cooling system, which hopefully wouldn't suck to much power. Or maybe the converted power can be used only for the cooling system leaving the rest for the battery, thus conserving power anyways....just thinking aloud here though. :)

It needs a heat differential to generate electricity... that has to come from some place... when the company talks about it being used as power source for running the laptop it requires the use of a small heat source (microburner) that burns a combustible and portable fuel source (ethanol, propane, etc.). This is a feasible product.

In the case of using waste heat given off by the CPU it remains to be seen just how much energy they can recover...

[Chef Medeski]

I haven't read the whole article yet, but from the sounds of it, it seems as though a laptop can be charged without plugging in it. That is the processor that converts heart to electricity could either charge the battery or provide it's own power to the laptop. That would extend battery life, not sure by how much, but if it is a decent amount, this technology would be great for laptops.

Then again there's the heat issue. While the heat will provide electricity, your going to have to have a decent cooling system, which hopefully wouldn't suck to much power. Or maybe the converted power can be used only for the cooling system leaving the rest for the battery, thus conserving power anyways....just thinking aloud here though. :)

lol.... decent amount... nah... about a couple minutes.

[neonart]

Does this mean we might actually see a 3GHz G5 Powerbook? :rolleyes:

I know really. I could see the tagline now:

The new PowerBook G5. Power cords are a thing of the past.

Yea, kinda cheesy, but you get the idea. :)

ARRGGGH! You guys beat me to it.

I was certain we were getting G5 Powerbooks on Tuesday based on this news.:D

[twoodcc]

sounds like a good idea to me. better battery life is always good ;)

[socamx]

yea, their website looks like it was from 1998...

Least the page is valid code unlike websites from 1998. ;x

Bet my G5 could make a lot of free electricity with that chip. ^^

[SiliconAddict]

God knows the MB and MBP have heat to spare so bring it on.

[jettredmont]

If you're in a warm room, for instance, you'll have much lower performance, since it requires the differential to work. Of course, maybe the information available isn't wholly accurate, but that's my understanding based on the description.

And therein lies the failure of this idea as a simplifying concept:

When do you need the fan on? When the processor heats up.

Do you want the fan blowing harder or softer when the room is warmer? Harder.

In other words, if I'm sitting out in the cool evening air, I hardly need the fan going at all as the coolness of the air is doing just fine pulling the heat from the CPU. If I'm sitting in 100-degree weather then that fan better be buzzing like a bee to get enough air past the heat sink to effect a suitable heat transfer.

This works in just the opposite: In the cold air, there's a huge differential, so the fan is going full bore, annoying me and all my peace-and-quiet-loving neighbors. In the warm air, it slows to a crawl as the amount of electricity generated approaches the lower limit of sustaining power for the fan. Then it stops. Then my laptop heats up rapidly and the processor dies.

So, you need two additional controls: a bleed for cases when this extra cooling is not necessary, and a backup fan for when it isn't sufficient.

So, we haven't been able to simplify the problem at all, and instead are gaining the (very slight) power savings from not having to run this fan off our battery power (directly) in a mid-temp room. Seems like the R&D and per-unit costs put into this circuitry could be more wisely spent eking a few more milliwatts from the existing circuitry ...

[QuantumLo0p]

"If you're in a warm room, for instance, you'll have much lower performance, since it requires the differential to work. Of course, maybe the information available isn't wholly accurate, but that's my understanding based on the description."

If the chip operates at a relatively high temperature a differential shouldn't be hard to reach. For example, with the cell operating at 600 degrees there is not much of a differential change between room temperature and plus/minus 10 degrees.

The article hinted at efficiency between twenty to thirty percent. Wow. This would be a huge leap above thermocouple efficiency, such as in radioisotope thermoelectric generators (RTG's), which supposedly are only three to seven percent efficient.

The applications for this are huge and heat sources are readily available. I, for one, would prefer an alcohol powered cell over a RTG in my computer any day. That whole radiation poisoning thing could ruin my bowling average.

[e12a]

Wow! what a great concept.

Pretty much like some hybrid cars getting power from when they brake.

The fact that it generates its own electricity, yes, but the same principle no. For light to normal braking the electric motor can act as a power generator, harnessing the kinetic energy of the moving wheels. Brake pads are not involved. Its called progressive braking. Brake pads come into play when you brake hard.

too bad that's not really anything that laptops can do..unless we can attach a generator to the hard drive and use it to charge the battery when it spins down.

it's an interesting concept to use heat..i wonder how they will do it. No steam engine here.

[lepidoptera]

...I mean isn't this just cold fusion?

Why are these guys in Utah though?

I think their being in Utah is entirely appropriate for cold fusion, don't you? ;)

[Rend It]

... sooo, a thermocouple (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermocouple) on a chip? Thermocouples have horrendous efficiency. I don't see how a such a chip in an enclosed environment (like a laptop motherboard) can achieve enough of a thermal gradient to produce enough current to be useful.

I dunno, i'm skeptical.

Skeptical you should be, but these aren't really thermocouples. The same physical principle applies, but thermocouples are really only for temperature measurement. These are thermoelectric coolers. See here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peltier-Seebeck_effect).

If you want to power the temperature change yourself, you need a high current. But if you want to generate electricity from them, then just connect them into a circuit with out any powersupply i.e. stick a fan's power terminals on that, stick one side of the TEC on a hot chip or cup of tea etc. to setup the delta T. (temp difference) then the fan will start spinning!


Dan :-)

While what you're saying is true in principle, I seriously doubt the practicality of what you're suggesting. TECs are moderately efficient at converting electricity into a temperature differential (or being used as a heat pump), but their efficiency in the other mode of operation (Seebeck effect) is very, very low (typ. < 5%). If you take a chip-sized (~ 1 cm^2) TEC, connect it between a hot processor core at 100 C and ambient temperature at 25 C, you will not have enough power to turn a computer fan at any modest speed. Furthermore, even if you could harvest that electricity and store it, the added energy would be less than 0.1% of a typical laptop battery. :rolleyes:

If you wanted to use a larger TEC module (say 16 cm^2) on top of the 80 C CPU case, then the added energy would be less than 1%.

Estimates based on info here (http://www.ferrotec.com/technology/thermoelectric/thermalRef13.php).

[gingerbreadboy]

first post!

i'm working on my ph.d. in applied physics and our lab researches thermoelectric materials. there is no known material yet that is 30 % efficient, as the article claims. the most common material used in refrigerators (Bi2Te3) is only ~ 5 % efficient. a lot of money is being poured into this field to increase the efficiency, but so far the enhancement has been incremental. companies like general motors want to use the seebeck effect of thermoelectric materials to convert waste heat in automobiles back into electricity. 60% of the energy generated from gas is wasted as heat. NASA has been using thermoelectrics for years as RTG's to power deep space probes. i'd love one to be in my laptop, but the efficiency is being overstated here. it's suspicious. and the small dT values from the chip to the air would also be small, so very little voltage could be generated. although, i heard a rumor that some companies were looking into powering a liquid metal (InGa) liquid coolant system with the computers own waste heat. who knows.

[jettredmont]

right, and thats one of the concerns that folks have. But if Apple somehow manages to integrate one of these into a heatsink and put it right on a CPU's surface, there will no-doubt be a difference between the surface-temp of the CPU and the other side of the chip.

At how much of a loss in heatsink effectiveness? Heatsinks and heatsink gel are formulated to allow very high rates of heat transfer. You can't just stick a little piece of silicon in there (which will undoubtedly act as an insulator relative to the heat sink path) and expect the heat to still leave the processor.

[Chef Medeski]

For example, with the cell operating at 600 degrees there is not much of a differential change between room temperature and plus/minus 10 degrees.
My Pb.... quite a hot computer runs 140F at the GPU. Id say your pushing no more than 150 at the CPU. No more than 170 on any laptop. 170F
=76 C. 90F = 32 C. 80F = 26C. T = 76-32= 44C. 76-26= 50C. 12% difference. Yes.... quite unnoticeable :rolleyes: . Thats if its a direct relationship... if its a secondary or tertiary relationship.... well then your looking at huge difference being created.

I dont know where you got 600 :rolleyes: or negligible.... but...

[shawnce]

If the chip operates at a relatively high temperature a differential shouldn't be hard to reach. For example, with the cell operating at 600 degrees ... "600 degrees" :eek: ...degrees what?

[Chef Medeski]

"600 degrees" :eek: ...degrees what?
600 Fahrenheit.... nah.... nothing gets that hot.
600 Kelvin. whats that like 40 degress celsius. Nope.... 330 Celsius. :eek: Wow thats a lot

But not as much as 600 CELSIUS :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Maybe he invented a system. :rolleyes:


600F : Melting Point of Cadmium.
600K: Melting Point of Lead.
600C: Melting point of Aluminum (so thats why Apple switched from Titanium).

[jettredmont]

600 Fahrenheit.... nah.... nothing gets that hot.
600 Kelvin. whats that like 40 degress celsius. Nope.... 330 Celsius. :eek: Wow thats a lot

But not as much as 600 CELSIUS :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Maybe he invented a system. :rolleyes:


600F : Melting Point of Cadmium.
600K: Melting Point of Lead.
600C: Melting point of Aluminum (so thats why Apple switched from Titanium).


Maybe 600 Rankine? That's only 140F, so at least a reasonable Earth-bound/non-vaporizing-your-skin temperature ...

[D*I*S_Frontman]

Nothing new. I remember playing around with this as a science experiment in the early 80's. Dissimilar metals sandwiched together--put one end in ice, the other in hot coffee--walaah! Current sufficient to make a fan turn. Hook up the same device to a battery, and one side gets slightly colder while the other gets slightly warmer.

The obvious problem is that the system requires isolated extremes of temperature to do aything. After an hour of use, my MBP's lower case is uniformly warm. Once a thermoelectric device is at a uniform temperature, it ceases to work, if you are using it as a way to convert heat into electricity. If you power the device with electricity in order to cool a laptop CPU, then the other half of the device will be throwing out MORE heat--which the singed hairs on your upper thighs will attest to when you are using your system as a "laptop".

The only time it would work with any effectiveness would be if you took your room-temp cold MBP and, immediately after start-up, tasked a huge Photoshop render file that pounded on the CPUs. At least for a while, the temp differential would give you some electricity back.

[matticus008]

This works in just the opposite: In the cold air, there's a huge differential, so the fan is going full bore, annoying me and all my peace-and-quiet-loving neighbors. In the warm air, it slows to a crawl as the amount of electricity generated approaches the lower limit of sustaining power for the fan. Then it stops. Then my laptop heats up rapidly and the processor dies.
This isn't a replacement for fans to control temperature--it's simply an attempt to put 'waste' heat to use. Obviously the normal array of heatsinks and fans would still exist to manage the temperatures. There's no conceivable implementation in which your computer would be harmed by the application of this additional device. The fan would hardly be necessary in the cold air, given that the temperature gradient would already be optimized.

So, we haven't been able to simplify the problem at all, and instead are gaining the (very slight) power savings from not having to run this fan off our battery power (directly) in a mid-temp room.
Well, it's not that outrageous. If it adds minimal cost and extends battery life 10% (not unreasonable with some refinement), that could easily equate to 15 minutes with current batteries. The cooling system itself is not affected, and obviously the benefit is greatest with a heavy CPU load, which in turn would maximize its impact on intensive operations which shorten battery life. In other words, this could partially offset the battery time lost by intensive computing, making it a worthwhile investment for professionals on the move.

[Analog Kid]

Cool-- forget about laptops, we can use these to delay the end of the universe! All energy eventually becomes heat. This little guy takes some of it and makes it electricity-- which eventually becomes heat. Then this little takes some of it and makes it electricity-- which eventually becomes heat. Then this little guy takes some of it and makes it electricity-- which eventually becomes heat. Then this little guy...

[Analog Kid]

Maybe the Power Chips (http://www.powerchips.gi/index.shtml) website is more welcoming. Seems like similar technology with a larger potential for energy recovery (70-80%). Hard to believe.

I dunno-- the dolphin speared by a mining pick was a bit unsettling...

[SPUY767]

In the business world, you need to be able to make a good impression. If you have a flashy website and nothing behind it, you're going nowhere. If you have good substance but poor presentation of it, you can still succeed, but it can be a lot harder than if you've got it presented well.

Sitting down for an hour with GoLive would provide them with a much better front door to the world. Starting a tech company is hard, but it's easier if you excel in all areas of your business. And yes, publicity is one of those areas.

It's not that they didn't take the time, it's just that your website has to look like that if you're going to comply with Every W3C and CSS regulation. :D

[macFanDave]

As a mechanical engineer, I'm not exactly cynical about this application of Eneco's technology, but I remain very, very skeptical. With such a relatively small temperature difference, I would say it is very unlikely that such a device would be economically feasible. A quick visit to Eneco's site shows me that they don't even have lab data for temperature differences of less than 100 deg C!

They obfuscate the issue of efficiency by referring to the Carnot efficiency to inflate the numbers to the uninitiated. Sadi Carnot showed that an ideal heat engine that operated between two infinite reservoirs at temperatures, T(hot) and T(cold) would have an efficiency of ( T(hot)-T(cold) ) / T(hot), and the temperatures have to be on an absolute scale like Kelvin or Rankine. The "Carnot efficiency" compares the performance of the system in question to this ideal heat engine.

Suppose you ran your chip at a very warm 90 deg C (363 K) and could dump the heat to your 25 deg C (298 K) room, your perfect efficiency would be about 18%! This means that for every 5W of heat you dissipate from the chip, you get a little less that 1 W of electric power. Something with an impressive-sounding 50% Carnot efficiency would really have a measly 9% real efficiency.

Unless Eneco sells these things very cheaply and makes them very small, I can't see Apple going through the trouble and expense of adding them to their portables for such a small benefit in recycled power. I remain skeptical, yet open-minded.

[amols]

Wouldn't using the "extra" electricity to power fans to decrease heat lead to less "extra" electricity???? :rolleyes: I hope they really think this through - and I'm sure they will. Of course powering fans isn't the only use for electricity.

LOL!! Good one. They'll cool the chip which will produce less electricity which will slow the fans and produce more heat which will make more electricity to speed up fans to cool the chip which will....:confused: :eek:

[yankeedoodle]

Sounds like cold fusion to me... :D

[Analog Kid]

As a mechanical engineer, I'm not exactly cynical about this application of Eneco's technology, but I remain very, very skeptical. With such a relatively small temperature difference, I would say it is very unlikely that such a device would be economically feasible. A quick visit to Eneco's site shows me that they don't even have lab data for temperature differences of less than 100 deg C!

They obfuscate the issue of efficiency by referring to the Carnot efficiency to inflate the numbers to the uninitiated. Sadi Carnot showed that an ideal heat engine that operated between two infinite reservoirs at temperatures, T(hot) and T(cold) would have an efficiency of ( T(hot)-T(cold) ) / T(hot), and the temperatures have to be on an absolute scale like Kelvin or Rankine. The "Carnot efficiency" compares the performance of the system in question to this ideal heat engine.

Suppose you ran your chip at a very warm 90 deg C (363 K) and could dump the heat to your 25 deg C (298 K) room, your perfect efficiency would be about 18%! This means that for every 5W of heat you dissipate from the chip, you get a little less that 1 W of electric power. Something with an impressive-sounding 50% Carnot efficiency would really have a measly 9% real efficiency.

Unless Eneco sells these things very cheaply and makes them very small, I can't see Apple going through the trouble and expense of adding them to their portables for such a small benefit in recycled power. I remain skeptical, yet open-minded.

Finding efficiency data for temperatures below 100C would be important since the max junction temperature for most processors is below that. Power supply devices max out at about 150C. You just can't get hotter than that and expect silicon to function as a semiconductor.

If the Intel chips burn 100W, then 9% conversion efficiency would generate 9W of electricity. In absolute terms, that's not too bad. You can do a lot with 9W. If you have a 5 hour battery life now, and can use these on all the major power sinks, you'd get 5.5 hours of battery life.

(Those are big "if"s, but putting them in bold seemed a bit too cynical...)

Interesting, but not earth shattering yet... If this became widespread though and we could cut world energy consumption by 10%-- that would be a big deal. Personally, I think there's more to be gained in cars (hotter and less efficient to begin with) than computers, but who knows.

[Analog Kid]

Wouldn't using the "extra" electricity to power fans to decrease heat lead to less "extra" electricity???? :rolleyes: I hope they really think this through - and I'm sure they will. Of course powering fans isn't the only use for electricity.

No, it would lead to a greater heat differential between CPU (max Tj stays constant) and the heat sink (getting colder with forced air flow) which would lead to more electricity generated. Under constant CPU load (thus a reduced die temperature because of cooling) the differential would stay the same and the electricity generated would stay the same.

[Chef Medeski]

If the Intel chips burn 100W, then 9% conversion efficiency would generate 9W of electricity. In absolute terms, that's not too bad. You can do a lot with 9W. If you have a 5 hour battery life now, and can use these on all the major power sinks, you'd get 5.5 hours of battery life.
Hold up! 9% is and Ideal Carnot Engine efficiency. Real World efficiecny would be about 1/5. So, at most you are going to get 1.8W and thats if the fans dissipate 100W of heat which is ridiculously high number. I would see it around 20W, meaning your recycled energy would be .37W. What can you do with that? Oh right power partially a fan.

[VAmin]

Wouldn't using the "extra" electricity to power fans to decrease heat lead to less "extra" electricity???? :rolleyes: I hope they really think this through - and I'm sure they will. Of course powering fans isn't the only use for electricity.

Using the electricity to power fans would actually improve the efficiency if the thermoelectric device is placed between the processor and the fan. This would increase the thermal gradient and generate more power than if you were relying solely on heat dissipation to get your gradient.

The only problem with this solution is that high efficiency thermoelectric materials, by design, have low thermal conductivities, so it would not be a good idea to place this between the chip and the heat sink.

I am also skeptical about the claim of 30% efficiency. If we had thermoelectric materials that operated at that efficiency, we could all say goodbye to refrigerator compressors and turbine generators in favor of devices with no moving parts, higher reliability, and no CFCs.

[fixyourthinking]

Interesting concept, but their website (http://www.eneco.com/) scares me away in a hurry. What was that about making a good first impression?

What scares you about the website?



I am also skeptical about the claim of 30% efficiency. If we had thermoelectric materials that operated at that efficiency, we could all say goodbye to refrigerator compressors and turbine generators in favor of devices with no moving parts, higher reliability, and no CFCs.

30% does seem high ... solar energy doesn't even get that (at least currently available commerciallly) - I wonder if this could somehow be combined with solar voltaic cells to increase their efficiency. For instance, what about a strip on a laptop that harnessed enough light to power something as well. I mean calculators run on ambient light.

[guzhogi]

I remember reading either here or on Appleinsider that if this goes well enough, they can use this chip to replace batteries. The thing with that is, if we take away the battery, where does the original power come from? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is my understanding that it'll take the heat from the cpu and convert it to electricity. If the computer was off and the cpu was the same temperature as the rest of the computer, how will it create the electricity? I'm all for using it, but as an addition to the battery, not a replacement for the battery.

[Analog Kid]

Hold up! 9% is and Ideal Carnot Engine efficiency. Real World efficiecny would be about 1/5. So, at most you are going to get 1.8W and thats if the fans dissipate 100W of heat which is ridiculously high number. I would see it around 20W, meaning your recycled energy would be .37W. What can you do with that? Oh right power partially a fan.
Sorry, where is this other .2 multiplier coming from? The scenario given was 9% conversion efficiency which would be 50% of the the ideal heat engine efficiency of 18% conversion efficiency.

[3CCD]

Great idea to utilize the head lost in powerloss of a conductor while a computer is running through an energy conversion chip. The only problem is, every conductor has some sort of powerloss, so if we have tons of heat will it generate more heat since we are using electricity gained from powerloss? I guess if this chip works you'll be able to cut down on the imput source since your utilized heat lost in the form of electricity that is recirculated throughout the system.

[steelfist]

I thought of this idea a couple of years ago. glad to see it taking shape for apple. think about it. zero heat cpus and ultra-long battery life.

[CanadaRAM]

I remember reading either here or on Appleinsider that if this goes well enough, they can use this chip to replace batteries. The thing with that is, if we take away the battery, where does the original power come from?

From a heat source such as a butane flame or other combustion.
We're talking two different applications here
1) recover some waste heat from the CPU back to electricity
2) generate electricity by applying a much higher heat source to one side of the thing - as a potential replacemenmt for batteries, fuel cells, etc.

[queenieamerica]

It's about time some one is using old school technology for a modern application. The Pelletier Effect Chip or Thermoecletric Chips used in all of those portable electric cooler/warmer's ie. minie fridges, will generate electricity when heat is applied to one side. If current is applied they act as a heat pump one side of the chip cools the other side gets warm. A 40mmX40mm chip can generate 85watts of cooling/heating. Using a Pelletier Effect Chip to absorbe excess heat and generate electricity has actually been around for decades but practical applications not always apparent. If this technology is integrated into the logic board/chipset design it may be helpful extending battery life by generating some elcetricity. I'm not sure what the efficiency of heat applied to electricity supplied from the Pelletier Effect chip.

[Linito]

it's all about power and making the most with that power, most of the electric power of a computer goes to waste in heat dissipation a chip like this would improve a lot computer efficiancy:eek:

[Aniej]

I thought Microsoft already announced this? ohhh no wait my bad, what I meant was a PC to Mac conversion system, I think its codename is Windows.:D

[OdduWon]

I thought Microsoft already announced this? ohhh no wait my bad, what I meant was a PC to Mac conversion system, I think its codename is Windows.:D

yeah, windows vista X :D