Who's the greatest ever?

[Winston Smith]

Whos's the greatest human that has ever lived?

This follows a recent television poll in the UK on the greatest Britain ever (Churchill won followed by Shakespeare)

My nomination is Leonardo Da Vinci
He painted probably the best known (ergo greatest?) picture: Mona Lisa; but also was a hugely unrecognised engineer, biologist and physicist.
He studied and made copious notes/drawings/inventions on the principles of flight, anatomy, underwater survival even cartography as well as his known artistry.
Much of his legacy came 400-500 years before it became common practice or was 'officially' discovered. His difficulty was a lack of sponsors or plain disbelief in the work he was doing.

Let the debate rage.........

:D

[icetraxxg5]

Well its pretty obvious... I am the greatest ever! :D ;) :p

HAHAHA

[hvfsl]

The answer is no one, no one person is signifiantly better than anyone else to earn this reward.

By the way Church Hill won the UK one, but Shakespheare came about 6th. Someone named Brunel came second.

But if I had to vote, I would vote for Jesus:)

[maluscanis]

In my humble opinion...Jesus Christ.

[edesignuk]

Originally posted by Winston Smith

This follows a recent television poll in the UK on the greatest Britain ever (Churchill won followed by Shakespeare)

hehe, I posted a thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15672) about that a while back :)

[dstorey]

Mahatma Gandhi. Preached none violence and still got his country liberated. Sadly he died via violence, just as Martin Luthar King Jr. did...and Jesus if you bring him in and count as a person.

[rainman::|:|]

well it only took two posts before someone mentioned jesus. surprise surprise. just remember, if you list jesus by this definition, you're admitting that he was a human being, and not the son of god. so you may want to rethink it.

be a little creative. if everyone says jesus, what's the point of the thread?

personally... it's a tough one... davinci is definitely high on the list, Lorenzo de Medici would also be prety high in that same area... he was the patron of the arts that effectively started the rennaissance in Florence...

also, Ghandi, definitely... but who else... Oscar Shindler, definitely, hmm... Well, Lorenzo it is :)

pnw

[Megaquad]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
well it only took two posts before someone mentioned jesus. surprise surprise. just remember, if you list jesus by this definition, you're admitting that he was a human being, and not the son of god. so you may want to rethink it.

be a little creative. if everyone says jesus, what's the point of the thread?

personally... it's a tough one... davinci is definitely high on the list, Lorenzo de Medici would also be prety high in that same area... he was the patron of the arts that effectively started the rennaissance in Florence...

also, Ghandi, definitely... but who else... Oscar Shindler, definitely, hmm... Well, Lorenzo it is :)

pnw
hmm.. Jesus too!
of others hmmm.. isn't it clear, shame on you, you betrayers!!!
STEVE JOBS!! :D

[scem0]

lol, I think not...... :D

Maybe Socrates or Galileo?

I dunno, that is a really hard question.

[JesseJames]

"All the world's a stage and we are merely players..." - William Shakespeare

He taught us more about the human condition than anyone I believe. ;)

[MrMacMan]

I'd have to give God alot of credit on this one... :D

Maybe John Lennon, steve jobs, JFK... Martin Luther King... lets see.. Ghandi G important
yeah, maybe Caesar, for the worst.

[howard]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
well it only took two posts before someone mentioned jesus. surprise surprise. just remember, if you list jesus by this definition, you're admitting that he was a human being, and not the son of god. so you may want to rethink it.

be a little creative. if everyone says jesus, what's the point of the thread?

personally... it's a tough one... davinci is definitely high on the list, Lorenzo de Medici would also be prety high in that same area... he was the patron of the arts that effectively started the rennaissance in Florence...

also, Ghandi, definitely... but who else... Oscar Shindler, definitely, hmm... Well, Lorenzo it is :)

pnw


very good point...

anyway i'd throw Plato up there along with Voltaire as well.

[void]

Prince Sidhartha (Buddha)

[MacFan25]

Definitley Steve Jobs! ;) :D

umm...this is kind of tough. I would have to say ghandi.

[dstorey]

Originally posted by MrMacman

yeah, maybe Caesar, for the worst.

NOOOOOO Caesar can't be the worst....he was a leftie ;) At least he did some great things to, I guess, unlike Hitler...and didn't just pick on one race to exterminate....Deffo hitler for worst, or gengis khan.......no no Billy Boy Gates....or Starlin but I think I'll give it Hitler by popular vote.

[scem0]

maybe confucious? Maybe Charles Darwin? Thomas Edison?
Columbus? Marx? Newton? Zheng He? Einstein? Nelson
Mandella? Martin LK? Joan of Arc? Missy Elliot?

[vollspacken]

Marie Curie

[britboy]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
well it only took two posts before someone mentioned jesus. surprise surprise. just remember, if you list jesus by this definition, you're admitting that he was a human being, and not the son of god. so you may want to rethink it.

be a little creative. if everyone says jesus, what's the point of the thread?
<snip>

pnw


and the problem there is......? Jesus was born a human, to show that living a life without sin was possible :)

Originally posted by hvfls
Someone named Brunel came second.

I really hope that's sarcasm there......


My vote would go to Alexander the Great. With very little experience he showed that he had arguably the greatest military mind ever seen, conquering all almost at will.

[mcrain]

Chaka Zulu, Budha, Ghandi, Muhammad, Jesus, Confucious, William Jefferson Clinton (ha, had to throw that in), JFK, Pres. Lincoln, The US' founding fathers, Martin Luther, Martin Luther King Jr., Vishnu (was he human?), Mother Jones, Walt Disney, Mr. Harley and Mr. Davidson, the Wright brothers and Henry Ford.

There are a lot more, but that's what comes off the top of my head.

[JesseJames]

Originally posted by dstorey
NOOOOOO Caesar can't be the worst....he was a leftie ;) At least he did some great things to, I guess, unlike Hitler...and didn't just pick on one race to exterminate....Deffo hitler for worst, or gengis khan.......no no Billy Boy Gates....or Starlin but I think I'll give it Hitler by popular vote.

What do you mean by he was a lefty?

[wdlove]

Without a second thought Jesus Christ, the 2nd person in the Trinity.

[scem0]

Originally posted by JesseJames
What do you mean by he was a lefty?

left handed I think....

not sure though.

I really hope that's sarcasm there......

No sarcasm. He built stuff.

[JesseJames]

So it's the old left-handed people are dangerous argument? Or is it benevolent?

[britboy]

Originally posted by scem0

No sarcasm. He built stuff.


He didn't just build stuff. I.K.Brunel was the most ingenious engineer of the modern ages, certaintly that we've had in the UK. He was the first to design and build a suspension bridge, a tunnel under the thames, and countless other feats that had previously been thought impossible. Perhaps there were other british people who deserved to be considered 'greater' than Brunel, but at least he came ahead of Diana.......:rolleyes:

[ShaolinMiddleFinger]

My vote goes to Jesus as the greatest human. Everyone on Earth knows who he was and what he represented.

[Computer_Phreak]

Originally posted by ShaolinMiddleFinger
My vote goes to Jesus as the greatest human. Everyone on Earth knows who he was and what he represented.

Actually I think thats far from true...

Think about the fact that there are 1 billion people in India alone, who are mostly Hindu, and all the people in China and other eastern countries are Buddhist.
I think that the majority of these people would not know a person named Jesus.

I think that its just places like America where Christianity is most popular.

[Foxer]

OK. Two ways to look at this, "greatest" as in most important to history and "greatest" as in my personal favorite.

My nomination for the "most important" is Mohammad. He founded on of the great monotheistic religions AND was a politcal leader of the first level, uniting the backward Arab world and setting them on the course towards a top-rate empire. So, basically, he combines the contributions of Christ, St. Paul, and Napoleon.

My personal favorite would be either Washington or Lincoln. Both had equally indispensable impact on the United States. Without both of them, the nation wouldn't exist as it does today, and without trying to sound too jingoistic, the world would be a very different (and less pleasant) place today without the United States.

[Mr. Anderson]

I'm thinking this is a bit skewed. Jesus is more than human and shouldn't be considered for that reason. Not only has good been done in his name but evil as well. Zealots and misguided interpretation of the bible leads to places better off avoided.

If we're discussing regular humans, that's different. Think about if a Muslim were to be given this question what their response would be? How about someone who is Jewish?

I think its a far better question as to who is the greatest person by leaving religion at the personal level out of it.

There are so many people who have contributed to the betterment of the human race that could be considered here. I'm not sure who I would vote for, really. DaVinci changed things quite a bit, having the talent and intelligence to see far outside the box. Ghandi and all the ones mcrain mentioned give a better picture though.

No one person can be given all the credit here I think. All of us have potential and its just a matter of realizing it and making a difference that counts, no matter how large or small. We won't ever know the outcome of all our actions will have had on those around us.

D

[sillymacgirl]

I think if anyone wants to name Jesus as the greatest person ever then let them. I personally would name him too. Regardless of who his father is, he was born, lived and died, just like every other human has or will. (Even if he had a prior, spiritual form :)) I say allow everyone to voice their opinions but keep arguments about religious convictions/beliefs out of this before it gets out of hand and the thread ends up shut down.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
well it only took two posts before someone mentioned jesus. surprise surprise. just remember, if you list jesus by this definition, you're admitting that he was a human being, and not the son of god. so you may want to rethink it.not exactly. most churches will tell you that jesus christ was both fully god and fully man, and that such is a mystery we don't presume to understand, but believe on faith. be a little creative. if everyone says jesus, what's the point of the thread? oh, jesus isn't creative, but Ghandi and Da Vinci are? i don't think you've put much more thought than just a prejudice into this...

if everyone says jesus, then that would be a unanimous vote. but obviously you didn't, so that's impossible.

[MrMacMan]

Originally posted by dstorey
NOOOOOO Caesar can't be the worst....he was a leftie ;) At least he did some great things to, I guess, unlike Hitler...and didn't just pick on one race to exterminate....Deffo hitler for worst, or gengis khan.......no no Billy Boy Gates....or Starlin but I think I'll give it Hitler by popular vote.

Caesar had evil ambitions, he was to rule rome and destroy its society from the inside out, true he got the people behind him, but that is easy enough to do...
also see: germany (WWII), U.S, etc.

Caesar couquored all, I suppose he was the first to be in-partial that way.

Oh well I forgot.

MOSES!

And remember this: 1/2 of christianinty came from judaism. To be more specific think first testement. (rather not start jew vs christian bashing, because there are more christians here)

I think I have said enough...

BTW, I say anyone who said Jesus isn't anything BUT human is wrong, because:
a) he is 1/3 of the trinity of, well GOD (if you believe that, which I don't)
b) if he was 1/3 of trinity then he never was born or died, he was well GOD, god doesn't die and become re-born, thats like saying the universe was re-born or was re-booted... :eek:

[iGav]

Originally posted by britboy
He didn't just build stuff. I.K.Brunel was the most ingenious engineer of the modern ages, certaintly that we've had in the UK. He was the first to design and build a suspension bridge, a tunnel under the thames, and countless other feats that had previously been thought impossible. Perhaps there were other british people who deserved to be considered 'greater' than Brunel, but at least he came ahead of Diana.......:rolleyes:

I know Diana.... :p :p :p WTF was she doing in the top 1000 is beyond me...

Along with Lennon.... like yeah.... right.... :rolleyes:

As for Churchill... hmmmm... sure he was a deciding factor in the war... but he was a crap PM and had a history darker than Black....

I'd have gone for Brunel....

The 'INVENTOR' of the modern world.... ;)

[dstorey]

Yeah i meant Caesar was left handed. And we arn't all sinister as the french and latin translation of left means ;). I can't really see how Caesar was any worse than the other leaders of the age such as other Roman leaders (and probably rome gave us more to become a modern society than anywhere icluding the united states) and the likes of Khan and Atilla the Hun etc. I guess it was just the thing to do then but others did it far more barbaricly.

I don't really agree with the like it or not, the world would be a worse place without the united states....this isn't anti americanism cause I'm not and would like to live there but the USA has done just as many bad things as other counties and other counties have done just as many great things. I can't really see the likes of the founding farthers etc being the greatest person in the world as they only really effected the US and no one outside cares about them.....I mean I only know lincon and can't think of anything he's done great to effect me. People that really did great things I think are the likes of people that invented democrasy (some greek I guess), education (some roman), Racial rights (MartinLuthar King), Liberation through peacful means (gandhi) even the likes of Bell that invented the telephone and more. But suppose thats only my opinion.

[lmalave]

Originally posted by Computer_Phreak
Actually I think thats far from true...

Think about the fact that there are 1 billion people in India alone, who are mostly Hindu, and all the people in China and other eastern countries are Buddhist.
I think that the majority of these people would not know a person named Jesus.

I think that its just places like America where Christianity is most popular.

Well, but you know who Buddha is, right? But point taken - 1/3 the world might know his name but not know much about his teachings. But still, with 3 Billion Christians and 1 Billion Muslims, it's hard to argue that he's not one of the most if not the most well known human.

[lmalave]

Ok, my picks: a tie between Galileo Galileii and Adam Smith. With all due respect to Jesus of Nazareth and Mohammed, they did not fundamentally change the way people lived. The biggest change since the Agricultural Revolution was not in 1st century or the 7th century, it was in the 17th century with the rise of Scientific Method, the Industrial Revolution, and Capitalism. And I submit to you that the mind-boggling advances of the past few hundred years were greatly influence and accelerated by Galileo and Adam Smith.

Galileo established the Scientific Method (though it would not be called such until later). He established the use of Observation instead of Rhetoric to establish the Truth. For example, Aristotle reasoned that heavier objects fell faster than lighter objects. Galileo observed that all objects fall at the same rate and that the distance traveled is proportional to the square of time elapsed. Galileo also invented the telescope and almost single-handedly established the acceptance of Copernicus' theory of a sun-centered solar system over the Ptolemaic earth-centered system. This had huge psychological ramifications that are almost impossible to overstate. At the time, when formalized Science was just getting established, this was a far more earth-shattering idea than, for example, Darwin's theory of Evolution.

My second vote goes to Adam Smith, father of the field of Economics. Again, it is almost impossible to overstate his influence. Smith observed how craft guilds (and this is pre-industrialization) achieved ever increasing productivity through division of labor and mechanization. His ideas were widely read and definitely accelerated the move toward industrialization. Smith also theorized that the prices and quantities of goods produced are set by the Market to produce the maximum possible total satisfaction in society (the "invisible hand" theory). This led to the gradual abandonment of Mercantilist policies, where the government set prices and quotas for goods and strictly regulated imports and exports. Thus Smith's ideas led directly to the Capitalist system that we know today.

[RandomDeadHead]

John Lennon
Give me a frekkin break.:rolleyes:

I vote for Wavy Gravy.

[Winston Smith]

Glad to see this thread hasn't been shutdown after a couple of days away from my Mac. I was concerned the religious nominees could start a flame war.

Some really impressive nominees to, Gallileo, Adam Smith, Lorenzo De Medici, Shakespeare and I stand corrected on Brunel, edesign, I seriously considered nominating him.

It comes down whether you choose an individual because of their achievements, their legacy or unrealised potential (as in Da Vinci).

Personally I feel religious nominations should be discluded if only because of the emotive reponses they can draw.

[JesseJames]

Uh, personally speaking. I'd have to say my Mom. She's a rock.:)

[jethroted]

Charles Manson!

[jefhatfield]

the greatest human being who is now dead would be archimedes, the greek mathmetician or ghandi

if the category was greatest human who also happened to be god in the flesh, my vote goes to jesus christ of nazareth

my vote for greatest living human being goes to bill gates IF he keeps his word and donates most of his fortune to help humanity in AIDS research and helping the poor ( but like andrew carnegie, one has to ask, "how did that man come up with the money?") ;)

with a clear conscience, i would give my vote for greatest human now to nelson mandela or jimmy carter ( no skeletons in their closets on the level of mr. gates and his tendency to borrow other people's ideas) :p

i hope that former presidents from america can have the same vision that jimmy carter have had for the world...carter recieved the nobel peace prize recently for his efforts

[guitargeek]

Frank Zappa :p

I don't really have any preference here, but Mike Portnoy from Dream Theater is one damn cool guy.

If the person doesn't have to be human, I choose Homestarrunner.

[jayb2000]

Given the number of people I am sure I do not know of around the world that were great people, I figured I would limit it to the USA.

So, with that in mind, I would say Thomas Jefferson.
"When Jefferson assumed the Presidency, the ... he slashed Army and Navy expenditures, cut the budget, eliminated the tax on whiskey so unpopular in the West, yet reduced the national debt by a third."

If only ShrubCo could be so good!
(Not that Clinton was better, just picking on the current Republicrat.)

http://www.cato.org/ has some good info about Jefferson's ideals.

[jadariv]

After reading a number of accounts about the Cuban Missile Crisis, I would have to say JFK (is at least one of the most important men in history). If Dubya and Cheney had been in office then the U.S., Soviet Union and most of the rest of the world would be a radioactive piece of glass.

[jethroted]

GG Allin

[jelloshotsrule]

hulk hogan.


still at it in his old age!

[dxp4acu]

This is a tough one. It's amazing how many people have been left out so far. If they are not recent (relatively) or religious icons, it appears they have been forgotten.

I normally say Jesus, but if we take him out, I would say Solomon or Thomas Aquinas.

Thomas Aquinas was the bomb. His forward way of thinking helped us move through the Medieval ways of thinking. Great stuff!

[lmalave]

Originally posted by scem0
maybe confucious? Maybe Charles Darwin? Thomas Edison?
Columbus? Marx? Newton? Zheng He? Einstein? Nelson
Mandella? Martin LK? Joan of Arc? Missy Elliot?

Zheng He? How about Zhu Di, the Emperor who had the vision to compile all of man's knowledge, and the audacity to bring the entire world under the Chinese tribute system. He also built the Forbidden City and restored the Great Wall. You should read the book "1421: The Year the Chinese Discovered America". Much of the book seems like total BS, but the thing is that if even 10% is true, it's still a pretty convincing case that the Chinese fleets rounded the Cape of Good Hope and Tierra Del Fuego, and also came as close to reaching both the North and South poles as was possible on a boat (they were trying to find the poles for astronomical reasons). The great thing about the book is it gives you a sense of the glory of the Chinese empire in the early 15th Century. They were so far ahead of pre-Renaissance Europe that it wasn't even funny.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by dxp4acu
This is a tough one. It's amazing how many people have been left out so far.

it's hard to focus on just one...i picked jesus as one of the greats, but just within christianity there are a lot of major contributors like the 12 disciples, paul, joseph, mary, and many others

then there are the numerous religious icons of the other religions like bhudda, moses, abraham, mohammed, joseph smith, etc

in science i mentioned archimedes, but just among the greeks the list is endless

then there is pop culture and that cannot be dismissed so easily either since they do have great exposure and possibly influence on the young...besides the obvious influences of the beatles, elvis, and movie and tv stars of the west, the rest of the world has their major icons of popular entertainment

enrico fermi, who most have never heard of, was a major influence in the sciences, and not from america besides marie curie or albert einstein

and the real heroes/greatest people of many are their parents, teachers, local physicians, etc who will quietly go unnoticed by the world at large

if i could pick my top 100, i would have to leave a lot of big names out

[wdlove]

“The only thing new in the world is the history you don’t know” Harry Truman Old Testament history is relevant to the facts of the New Testament. The Old Testament is of our forefathers. We are all descendants of Abraham! :)

[hvfsl]

Originally posted by Computer_Phreak
Actually I think thats far from true...

Think about the fact that there are 1 billion people in India alone, who are mostly Hindu, and all the people in China and other eastern countries are Buddhist.
I think that the majority of these people would not know a person named Jesus.

I think that its just places like America where Christianity is most popular.

Actually 25% of India is christian, there is also 10,000 people every month that go christian in china. Compair that to islam where only 1 in 60,000 get converted every year. I did an essay on this for collage, so I did the research. The numbers are based on the numbers of people going to church out of the whole population.

Most people whether christian or not know at least a little about Jesus. Jesus is actually better knownin places like Africa than in US, UK etc.

[lmalave]

Originally posted by hvfsl
Actually 25% of India is christian, there is also 10,000 people every month that go christian in china. Compair that to islam where only 1 in 60,000 get converted every year. I did an essay on this for collage, so I did the research. The numbers are based on the numbers of people going to church out of the whole population.

Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the world right now by a fairly wide margin. Primarily because Muslim countries currently have higher birthrates in general.

And while 10,000 a month in China might sound like a lot, that is only 120,000 a year, so after 100 years you'd have 12 Million. This in a country with a population of 1.2 Billion. So at this rate after 100 years the percentage of the Chinese population that is Christian would go up by only 1%.

25% of India Christian? :confused:
I find that completely unbelievable. There is no way.

From the CIA World Factbook:

Hindu 81.3%, Muslim 12%, Christian 2.3%, Sikh 1.9%, other groups including Buddhist, Jain, Parsi 2.5% (2000)

Maybe you mistook 2.5% for 25%?

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by hvfsl


Most people whether christian or not know at least a little about Jesus. Jesus is actually better knownin places like Africa than in US, UK etc.

knowing jesus is a personal relationship, and america's churches are either strapped in traditionalism, nationalism, money, power, and greed

and did i mention politics?

i have heard missionaries talk from the field who convert tons of people who come to know christ because they are not tethered to the negative influences on christianity in america

some feel that america is completely a lost cause so many missionaries go to more fertile ground
where perhaps the more simple/humble lifestyles are more consistent with jesus christ's message

[actripxl]

Well I'd have to say Thomas Edision, electricity has helped millions, acutually billions of lives to advance and sustain themselves. Forget Ghandi, MLK, or Winston Churchill, they only affected a small portion of the world population. Its great thinkers like Newton, Edison, Einstein whose works have contributed to the advancement of the humanity. Some one said Bill Gates well instead of Aids he should give it to Cancer instead and then maybe he could be up there.

[lmalave]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
some feel that america is completely a lost cause so many missionaries go to more fertile ground
where perhaps the more simple/humble lifestyles are more consistent with jesus christ's message

Yeah, I have to say, the Christianity practiced in the barrios in Puerto Rico is so much different than what I see in the U.S. But then again my family is Seventh Day Adventist, so we think mainstream Christianity got corrupted around the time of Emperor Constantine :)

[britboy]

Originally posted by lmalave
Yeah, I have to say, the Christianity practiced in the barrios in Puerto Rico is so much different than what I see in the U.S. But then again my family is Seventh Day Adventist, so we think mainstream Christianity got corrupted around the time of Emperor Constantine :)


Well what do you know. My wife and I are both SDA's too! Of note, I agree about Constantine. He perhaps had the best intentions in mind, but did more to hurt christianity than every pope put together since.....

[lmalave]

Originally posted by britboy
Well what do you know. My wife and I are both SDA's too! Of note, I agree about Constantine. He perhaps had the best intentions in mind, but did more to hurt christianity than every pope put together since.....

No way! I guess in my mind I didn't think about a lot of Adventists being in the U.K. Since I was born in Puerto Rico I've always thought of it as largely Third World / missionary. Plus Loma Linda, California, of course ;) Even here in NYC the Adventist churches are overwhelmingly in the Latin neighborhoods.

[britboy]

Originally posted by lmalave
No way! I guess in my mind I didn't think about a lot of Adventists being in the U.K. Since I was born in Puerto Rico I've always thought of it as largely Third World / missionary. Plus Loma Linda, California, of course ;) Even here in NYC the Adventist churches are overwhelmingly in the Latin neighborhoods.


Well, unfortunately you'd be right there. There's only about 20,000 of us in the UK. Thanks to the work of ADRA, AWR etc though, there's a much higher proportion in less developed countries, which is encouraging. Fortunately my church is a decently-sized one. It's right in the centre of london (just off edgeware road if you're interested, called the Central London Church), with a congregation of around 300. I run the PA and powerpoint services side. We seem to be a predominantly australasian church though, which can be fun!

It's cool to meet another SDA here. It's a rare, but nice occasion :)

[tcolling]

Originally posted by lmalave
Ok, my picks: a tie between Galileo Galileii and Adam Smith. With all due respect to Jesus of Nazareth and Mohammed, they did not fundamentally change the way people lived.

What??????

Jesus of Nazareth did not change the way people lived? Thousands are laughing out loud at that statement.

Another poster suggested religion, on a personal level, should not be used as criteria. How can one possibly not include religion if they are determining the greatest man ever, if religion is part of their life? Get real. (Yes, Jesus Christ was 100% human, and is 100% deity)

Influenced by Jesus:

Instance of the year (excluding Chinese year, B.C. / A.D.)
Largest number of portraits ever painted
Largest quantity of books about him (the Bible)
Largest societal and political infrastructure about him (the Christian Church)

Truly, more has been written about him, done because of him, conversed about him, debated about him, and accomplished through him than any other human being.

[lmalave]

Originally posted by britboy
Well, unfortunately you'd be right there. There's only about 20,000 of us in the UK. Thanks to the work of ADRA, AWR etc though, there's a much higher proportion in less developed countries, which is encouraging. Fortunately my church is a decently-sized one. It's right in the centre of london (just off edgeware road if you're interested, called the Central London Church), with a congregation of around 300. I run the PA and powerpoint services side. We seem to be a predominantly australasian church though, which can be fun!

It's cool to meet another SDA here. It's a rare, but nice occasion :)

Sweet. I've never been to the U.K, believe it or not, but if I ever do in the future I'll check it out.

Now the real question is: do you run those PowerPoint slides on a Mac? ;)

[tcolling]

Originally posted by Winston Smith

Personally I feel religious nominations should be discluded if only because of the emotive reponses they can draw.

Of course, that means no Jesus, Mohammed, Ghandi, Moses, Abraham, Job, Buddha, Constantine, Isaiah, Confuscious, John the Baptist, Paul, Martin Luther, Loyola, Calvin, Lao-Tzu, Krishna, Joan of Arc, Mother Theresa, Martin Luther King, Jr., Dahli Lama, Mahavir, and the list goes on and on. And do we also need to disclude those whose work, life, and "greatness" where (self-proclaimed or not) influenced by religion? The list grows and grows....

[britboy]

Originally posted by lmalave
Sweet. I've never been to the U.K, believe it or not, but if I ever do in the future I'll check it out.

Now the real question is: do you run those PowerPoint slides on a Mac? ;)


Make it soon.....

Unfortunately I have to run powerpoint on a PII-600, with Win 98SE. I've tried explaining to the board that we need something better, and that macs are generally easier to use for this type of thing, but so far no joy. They say it's an unnecessary expense. Little do they realise that it would be well within our budget. I'll not be giving up easily though ;)

[lmalave]

Originally posted by tcolling
Confuscious

Confucianism is not a religion. That's a common misconception. It's a philosophy. (or so say my Chinese friends - I've never read his writings myself).

[Groovsonic]

Originally posted by lmalave
Confucianism is not a religion. That's a common misconception. It's a philosophy. (or so say my Chinese friends - I've never read his writings myself).

And Christianity is really not so much a religion as it is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

I am not sure how I feel about putting Jesus on top of my list, just becuase I do not want to put him on the same level as a human, even though I know he was both all human and all God. However, as far as changing the world, Jesus would certianly be on top of the list. Excluding Jesus, I would have to say Noah. He had the courage to follow God and his convictions when everyone around him probably thought he was crazy. Of modern people, I would have to say Mother Theresa. I am not catholic, but her incerdible selflessness and compassion on the people her and her orginization helped is awe inspiring.

Who said JFK??? I saw like 2 people say JFK. May I ask why?

[NavyIntel007]

Originally posted by tcolling
What??????

Jesus of Nazareth did not change the way people lived? Thousands are laughing out loud at that statement.

Another poster suggested religion, on a personal level, should not be used as criteria. How can one possibly not include religion if they are determining the greatest man ever, if religion is part of their life? Get real. (Yes, Jesus Christ was 100% human, and is 100% deity)

Influenced by Jesus:

Instance of the year (excluding Chinese year, B.C. / A.D.)
Largest number of portraits ever painted
Largest quantity of books about him (the Bible)
Largest societal and political infrastructure about him (the Christian Church)

Truly, more has been written about him, done because of him, conversed about him, debated about him, and accomplished through him than any other human being.

Don't forget our laws. All of Europe, the Americas and Austrailia, whether you like it or not, have laws that are based on the moral foundations of Christianity. Before I get flamed, let me remind you that just because YOU aren't christian doesn't mean that the founders of our nations weren't.

They found the remains of that woman in Africa and said she's the mother of humanity. I think they named her Lucy, she's pretty damn important IMO.

[NavyIntel007]

Originally posted by Groovsonic
And Christianity is really not so much a religion as it is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

I am not sure how I feel about putting Jesus on top of my list, just becuase I do not want to put him on the same level as a human, even though I know he was both all human and all God. However, as far as changing the world, Jesus would certianly be on top of the list. Excluding Jesus, I would have to say Noah. He had the courage to follow God and his convictions when everyone around him probably thought he was crazy. Of modern people, I would have to say Mother Theresa. I am not catholic, but her incerdible selflessness and compassion on the people her and her orginization helped is awe inspiring.

Who said JFK??? I saw like 2 people say JFK. May I ask why?

For real!?! JFK wasn't in office long enough to make a blip on the radar. There were so many greater leaders in the 20th century, let alone all time. You dare say JFK before FDR? FDR held the US together during the worst financial times in our history and the greatest war of all time. And you pick JFK? I'd pick Castro Himself before JFK

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by NavyIntel007
For real!?! JFK wasn't in office long enough to make a blip on the radar. There were so many greater leaders in the 20th century, let alone all time. You dare say JFK before FDR? FDR held the US together during the worst financial times in our history and the greatest war of all time. And you pick JFK? I'd pick Castro Himself before JFK

i would not choose castro...are you kidding?

unless the dude could hook me up with some good cigars;)

[tcolling]

Originally posted by NavyIntel007
Don't forget our laws. All of Europe, the Americas and Austrailia, whether you like it or not, have laws that are based on the moral foundations of Christianity. Before I get flamed, let me remind you that just because YOU aren't christian doesn't mean that the founders of our nations weren't.

They found the remains of that woman in Africa and said she's the mother of humanity. I think they named her Lucy, she's pretty damn important IMO.

Good point.

By the way, Lucy has be debunked by several expert scientists (no, I don't have the list) to be nothing more than a three foot tall chimpanzee, very similar to those that exist today.

Anyway, I do understand why there are those who don't want to count Jesus in this list. I can agree to a point, but only because being conceived immaculately, he sort of has an advantage over the rest of us. Jesus is still #1, but number two...

That's a really tough question. I like the idea of Noah, because human life (and a good portion of animal life) wouldn't be around today to discuss this without him. Mother Theresa is worthy of consideration, as is Gandhi. I don't think a great military leader makes a person "great", so that takes out Alexander the Great, Sun Tzu, et al. Abraham Lincoln had incredible wisdom and compassion. Socrates, Hippocrates, Confuscious (I was corrected by an earlier poster who stated that Confuscianism is not a religion, and I humbly agree with that poster), Tao, all worthy considerations.

But seriously, I think the greatest person (again, besides Jesus Christ) that ever lived is someone you or I have never heard of. Because that person is probably someone who wouldn't want to bask in his/her own glory, and would prefer to stay in the background. There is probably someone in the annuls of history that shaped the world by the acts they have done, but refused or shied away from credit. I don't know who that person is, but I am grateful for him/her.

[lmalave]

Originally posted by tcolling
Good point.
But seriously, I think the greatest person (again, besides Jesus Christ) that ever lived is someone you or I have never heard of. Because that person is probably someone who wouldn't want to bask in his/her own glory, and would prefer to stay in the background. There is probably someone in the annuls of history that shaped the world by the acts they have done, but refused or shied away from credit. I don't know who that person is, but I am grateful for him/her.

One reason for omitting religion from this topic is that it makes for a more interesting debate. Otherwise a Christian will choose Jesus, a Muslim Mohammed, a Buddhist Buddha, and so forth. I enjoy debating these types of things, like who's more influential, but to me the question is much more interesting when you leave religion out of it and consider questions like whether a scientist was more influential than a politician, etc.

[tcolling]

Originally posted by lmalave
One reason for omitting religion from this topic is that it makes for a more interesting debate. Otherwise a Christian will choose Jesus, a Muslim Mohammed, a Buddhist Buddha, and so forth. I enjoy debating these types of things, like who's more influential, but to me the question is much more interesting when you leave religion out of it and consider questions like whether a scientist was more influential than a politician, etc.

I agree, it does make for a much more interesting debate (unless, of course, you want to debate whether Jesus should be included:) ). I must admit, I had to think long and hard about the answer before I finally wimped out and gave an answer that stated it is probably someone no one ever heard of
:p

[jefhatfield]

being a christian, i naturally believe jesus is god first, and man second...he just chose that human body for 33 years to get his work done for the salvation of mankind

...(i know that seems strange to some but that is the basic theology of the catholic church, the russian orthodox church, the greek orthodox church, and virtually all mainline protestant denominations like the lutherans, anglicans, presbyterians, methodists, baptists etc...and among non mainline protestant churches ranging from the born again independents all the way to the extremist christian cults, i would say that half believe in christ as god, and the other half as a major prophet)

let's say for argument's sake that jesus was not god, or a prophet, or even out to start a faith or religion and the above billion plus people are wrong

even just his revolutionary ideas still put him on the forefront of human thought

he was not a military man or political leader, but great human beings like ghandi and martin luther king have used jesus' non violent example to radically change history in the areas where they lived...and perhaps elsewhere

[tcolling]

The funny thing is, if you don't believe that Jesus is God, one can't believe that he was a great man. If he isn't God, then he is the most blasphemous, deceitful liar ever to walk the planet.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by tcolling
The funny thing is, if you don't believe that Jesus is God, one can't believe that he was a great man. If he isn't God, then he is the most blasphemous, deceitful liar ever to walk the planet.

while i am a christian and believe that jesus is god, there are non mainline churches out there that believe that jesus is not god

the jehovah witnesses and mormon churches are two prominent examples of non trinity churches as are some factions of the church of christ denomination

within the born again movement, the range of belief is so vast and decentralized that traditional trinitarian ideas of the mainline churches or the catholic churches are not exactly always in the range of their theology...born agains usually believe in the trinity but the idea is not always enforced as in the traditional churches

and then there are some ultra liberal non mainline protestant churches who are just fine with thinking that jesus was just the son of god only, but may have members or factions that believe that jesus can only be god and nothing less

the church of chirst is basically a group of people dispersed throughout many denominations and sects...of course there are some churches that claim that their particular denomination is the only group of people in human history to be right but then that usually makes them a cult who completely miss the point of jesus completely

i won't name names of cults, but my employee is a minister in one of those cults and basically believes the only christians in the world lived 2000 years ago and in his denomination in the past century or so...everybody else is wrong and won't go to heaven:rolleyes:

[jefhatfield]

and besides trying to keep this thread open, i notice a lot of cult members i have met from different cults like to think differently, and they prefer macs more than pcs

i have seen some who practice mac as if it were a cult and think sj can do no wrong, and think that microsoft never gave apple real money, and that at no time did apple ever make a bad business decision, and somehow the low stock of apple is just some vast pc conspiracy to ruin those annointed geniuses at cupertino:p

[MOFS]

Originally posted by MrMacman
I'd have to give God alot of credit on this one... :D

Maybe John Lennon, steve jobs, JFK... Martin Luther King... lets see.. Ghandi G important
yeah, maybe Caesar, for the worst.

How dumb - Caesar? - which one? Caesar was a generic term, note Caesar Augustus, Julius Caesar etc.

John Lennon? Yes, he had pacific tendancies and his music was good, but the whole shebang? No way. MLK - yes. Gandhi - yes. Perhaps the way this should be looked at is how the person changed the world - MLK re racism, Gandhi re colonialisation - and Lennoon didn''t change the world in the way that these people did on their own. The Beatles as a whole could count as such a group, but since they're not one single person...

For this, you need categories eg Arts, Science, Humanitarian etc

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by MOFS
How dumb - Caesar? - which one? Caesar was a generic term, note Caesar Augustus, Julius Caesar etc.

John Lennon? Yes, he had pacific tendancies and his music was good, but the whole shebang? No way. MLK - yes. Gandhi - yes. Perhaps the way this should be looked at is how the person changed the world - MLK re racism, Gandhi re colonialisation - and Lennoon didn''t change the world in the way that these people did on their own. The Beatles as a whole could count as such a group, but since they're not one single person...

For this, you need categories eg Arts, Science, Humanitarian etc

well at least nixon thought john lennon had enough influence on somebody in america...lennon was on nixon's enemy list

[tcolling]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
while i am a christian and believe that jesus is god, there are non mainline churches out there that believe that jesus is not god

the jehovah witnesses and mormon churches are two prominent examples of non trinity churches as are some factions of the church of christ denomination

within the born again movement, the range of belief is so vast and decentralized that traditional trinitarian ideas of the mainline churches or the catholic churches are not exactly always in the range of their theology...born agains usually believe in the trinity but the idea is not always enforced as in the traditional churches

and then there are some ultra liberal non mainline protestant churches who are just fine with thinking that jesus was just the son of god only, but may have members or factions that believe that jesus can only be god and nothing less

the church of chirst is basically a group of people dispersed throughout many denominations and sects...of course there are some churches that claim that their particular denomination is the only group of people in human history to be right but then that usually makes them a cult who completely miss the point of jesus completely

i won't name names of cults, but my employee is a minister in one of those cults and basically believes the only christians in the world lived 2000 years ago and in his denomination in the past century or so...everybody else is wrong and won't go to heaven:rolleyes:

Well stated. By my point is, Jesus is quoted as saying "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me", and " I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from Me there is no Savior."

If one believes these declarations, Jesus is God, plain and simple. If not, Jesus was the David Koresh of his day.

I believe that there are religions that have a twisted view of who Jesus Christ is, but these are not truly Christian religions. You don't get to pick and choose.

(I think maybe we're debating the same side of the coin)

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by tcolling
Well stated. By my point is, Jesus is quoted as saying "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me", and " I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from Me there is no Savior."

If one believes these declarations, Jesus is God, plain and simple. If not, Jesus was the David Koresh of his day.

I believe that there are religions that have a twisted view of who Jesus Christ is, but these are not truly Christian religions. You don't get to pick and choose.

(I think maybe we're debating the same side of the coin)

i totally agree with you, but from the point of view of a muslim, hindu, bhuddist, agnostic, or atheist, among others, anybody with christ as savior in their declarations is christian from their point of view

some churches, while they believe in the trinity, don't mention it that much and i think that is sad...every chance i get, i proclaim christ as god instead of lord because a lot of non trinitarian religions, philosophies, and cults will make a discrepancy between lord and god

lord also meant a higher person of faith who can be just a high priest

so when one says jesus is god, there is no question as to where you stand as a trinitarian

jesus is the son of god but i still make the opportunity to simply say jesus is god so someone doesn't think that there is a difference between the two...to me, the son, the father, and the holy spirit are one and the same

[GeneR]

Originally posted by icetraxxg5
Well its pretty obvious... I am the greatest ever! :D ;) :p

HAHAHA

Okay, Icetraxxg5, you sold me! Dang! That was one heck of a compelling argument. :D Now that I think of it: I wanted to be the greatest ever! :D

But in all honesty, I believe Christ is. :D

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
i totally agree with you, but from the point of view of a muslim, hindu, bhuddist, agnostic, or atheist, among others, anybody with christ as savior in their declarations is christian from their point of view But that didn't make Arius a Christian. members of the above, and some christians too also believe one can be christian without believing in the divinity of christ. this doesn't make that view legitimate. it's simply ignorant, wherever it comes from. Christianity is founded on the Bible, as you well know, and there's no getting around that, as you say... where was i going... oh yeah. i think the fact that certain people miscontrue who can and cannot be included in the category of "christian" is pretty irrelevant to argument. it's like saying, "Abraham Lincoln may not have existed, because there are some people who've never heard of him."

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Shadowfax
But that didn't make Arius a Christian. members of the above, and some christians too also believe one can be christian without believing in the divinity of christ. this doesn't make that view legitimate. it's simply ignorant, wherever it comes from. Christianity is founded on the Bible, as you well know, and there's no getting around that, as you say... where was i going... oh yeah. i think the fact that certain people miscontrue who can and cannot be included in the category of "christian" is pretty irrelevant to argument. it's like saying, "Abraham Lincoln may not have existed, because there are some people who've never heard of him."

if one is the son of god, only, does that make him divine? he certainly is not your regular man being the son of god

what clears the issue for me is that christ is mentioned as the creator of all things by the writings of paul in galations so from that we know the bible says that christ is god, but in the flesh

[Steradian]

Originally posted by actripxl
Well I'd have to say Thomas Edision, electricity has helped millions, acutually billions of lives to advance and sustain themselves. Forget Ghandi, MLK, or Winston Churchill, they only affected a small portion of the world population. Its great thinkers like Newton, Edison, Einstein whose works have contributed to the advancement of the humanity. Some one said Bill Gates well instead of Aids he should give it to Cancer instead and then maybe he could be up there.

Dude...Edision was a total @$$ to MANY people, taking credit for things that he didn't soley do, create etc. My vote goes to Nikola Tesla, a great man. Here (http://www.apc.net/bturner/tesla.htm) is a short BIO

this one is a bit longer but a bit better Here ya go (http://www.school-for-champions.com/biographies/tesla.htm)

[Winston Smith]

I am finding the philosophical discussion in this thread fascinating and i am still astonished that we are able to have a sane discussion on such an emotive subject without starting a flame war.

However I really started this thread to discuss people from History who made a huge contribution to humanity or could have done if their talent had been recognised or understood.

I believe Jesus (and other religious figureheads (Buddha, Mohammed)) are still contributing to humanity. Now we could argue that Edison or Newton are still contributing but their learnings have been built on by others whilst the religious figureheads are still worshipped daily by name.

It has been said that there are 5% of the human race that really make a difference and of those 5% most own Macs (I forget where i read this so don't ask! It was probably here!) Therefore we should be able to debate this without taking the easy option - Frankly, in the western world, Jesus has had the most impact with his teachings influencing all our daily lives through our own worship and/or the structure of the societies we live in.

So 5% who's Number 2?

[Winston Smith]

Originally posted by Steradian
My vote goes to Nikola Tesla, a great man. Here (http://www.apc.net/bturner/tesla.htm) is a short BIO

this one is a bit longer but a bit better Here ya go (http://www.school-for-champions.com/biographies/tesla.htm)

Exactly the sort of contribution I'm referring to.
Fascinating links Steradian.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Winston Smith
Exactly the sort of contribution I'm referring to.
Fascinating links Steradian.

i thought tesla invented the electric guitar and later started a rock band;)

[GeneR]

Originally posted by Steradian
Dude...Edision was a total @$$ to MANY people, taking credit for things that he didn't soley do, create etc. My vote goes to Nikola Tesla, a great man. Here (http://www.apc.net/bturner/tesla.htm) is a short BIO

this one is a bit longer but a bit better Here ya go (http://www.school-for-champions.com/biographies/tesla.htm)

Yeah, Tesla. I thought about him too, but so many people have no idea who he is. Thanks for bringing him up.

How about... Ronald McDonald? :D

[wdlove]

Originally posted by GeneR
Yeah, Tesla. I thought about him too, but so many people have no idea who he is. Thanks for bringing him up.

How about... Ronald McDonald? :D

He does alot of good charitable work for children with cancer. He is an ideal more than a person!

[herr_neumann]

Greenspan.

[MarksEvilTwin]

Removed

[MarksEvilTwin]

Removed

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by MarksEvilTwin
In truth, nobody KNOWS, people BELIEVE oooh, that sounds like an epistemological nightmare waiting to happen. is belief knowledge? let me put it another way. what is knowledge but belief? and while we're on that, what's truth?

not winning that argument so easily :p

[tcolling]

Originally posted by MarksEvilTwin
In my humble opinion, i believe the thread is about "who is the GREATEST" person of all time, not who was the most influential. Yes, Jesus, whether you believe him to have been the messiah or not, most likely did exist, and indeed he has effected the greatest number of people. However, how "great" was he lies in the debate of whether or not he was the messiah. He could have easily been just another guy, a jew who gained support and followers, and was crucified, just as countless other men were. Or, he could have been the messiah. In truth, nobody KNOWS, people BELIEVE, and i'm sorry, but that is indisputable, whether you are protestant, catholic, buddhist, atheist, hindu, anything. So i think for the sake of this thread, we should be counting the "greatest person" to ever have lived by the content of what we know of their character, their mind, their body, their heart, and their effects on their fellow man (or woman).

Mark

You're right about one thing. Truth is truth, no matter how we pretend to define it. If every living soul said the earth was flat, that doesn't make it the truth. Jesus Christ either is the Messiah, or he isn't. If he is, than he is the greatest man ever (assuming we are allowing a man who is also a deity in the thread). If he isn't, then he is a liar, and can't be considered the greatest. However, he does influence the lives of billions, and many of those he influences tries to make the world a better place by doing or being "good" because of him, and that is a worthy criteria for the "greatest ever".

[MarksEvilTwin]

Removed

[mymemory]

1. Jesus
2. Simón Bolívar: He kicked out the spanish poeple from Venezuela, Colombia, Bolivia, Peru and Ecuador. All of that just by horse, that is why he is called "El Libertador".

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by MarksEvilTwin
Ooh, touché! hehe (boy i love the ease of putting in that accent on the mac...i remember accents were such a b*tch on my PC oustide of word...the command here is just so much simpler...)

Mark ¥éäh, the option kéy is wåy cøøl, man! :p :D

[scem0]

ughhhh I hate PC accented characters, and symbols.

But someone I don't think has been mentioned who I think
deserves a lot more credit for her work than she has ever
gotten is Rosalind Franklin.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by tcolling
You're right about one thing. Truth is truth, no matter how we pretend to define it. If every living soul said the earth was flat, that doesn't make it the truth. Jesus Christ either is the Messiah, or he isn't. If he is, than he is the greatest man ever (assuming we are allowing a man who is also a deity in the thread). If he isn't, then he is a liar, and can't be considered the greatest. However, he does influence the lives of billions, and many of those he influences tries to make the world a better place by doing or being "good" because of him, and that is a worthy criteria for the "greatest ever".

the fact that many have taken jesus as their personal savior is proof enough for me...a personal savior is a messiah and jesus has fulfilled that mission

especially since it has changed countless lives over the centuries

a liar could not pull that off...without the truth, there could be no lasting influence...unfortunately, man has taken christ at times and used it for his own personal gain and that has made a lot of people blame christ

but christ did not bring on the crusades, and a lot of the hyprocrisy in the traditional churches during their rise to prominence, or the hyprocrisy that weakens christians today who think that they can use religion to influence politics and the huge temptations that field of endeavor bring to man

christ was simple and had a simple message...and while he was the messenger, he was also the message...namely, that he is god in the flesh and messiah *which in the jewish faith can only by god, anyway

[wdlove]

Jesus said in Mark, " For the son of man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many." I'm proud that my life has been one of service!