Zune vs iPod Sales?

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Microsoft's release of the Zune player, of course, has drawn a number of comparisons with Apple's iPod. With no official numbers yet available, many interested consumers are looking at other measures of comparison between the two product lines.

Several readers point to Amazon's Top Selling MP3 Player list (http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/electronics/172630/ref=pd_ts_e_nav/103-3803705-4659014) as an informal sales ranking which shows that the Zune falls in 23rd place (after reaching a peak of 6th) behind many iPods as well as MP3 players from Creative and SanDisk.

Meanwhile, one analyst surveyed (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=2264) consumer electronics retail stores for comments and recommendations about the Zune player. According to their research, the iPod was recommended approximately 75% of the time, while the Zune was recommended about 8% of the time. As well, many of the quotes indicated that some sales people didn't even know what the Zune was:

"In fact, some MP3 player salespeople had not even heard of the Zune, despite the fact that they sold it in their store," he wrote.


To be fair, with the recent launch date for the Zune, such comparisons are hardly fair. After the initial launch, analysts expect (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2059178,00.asp) the Zune to build gradually, with initial marketshare coming at the expense of other MP3 manufacturers besides Apple.

Microsoft is going to put tons of money in this over time, much like they did with the Xbox" video game console, she said. "It's not about the first generation (of devices).

[aricher]

Those numbers are horrible for a holiday season launch.

From Zune to Ruin - the Microsoft Story, coming to book stores soon.

[spicyapple]

Ouch. Third time's the charm for Microsoft, though, which would put their Zune mini iPod killer for a 2009 release date. By then, we'd all have iPod sub-cutaneous implants.

[rock6079]

as i recall, apples ipod laucnh dindt have much hype either. however the market is different now and people know the significance of the mp3 player, but its still nice to see the zune not doin too well !

[bokdol]

one of the key differences between the xbox and zune. is that microsoft only had to contend with 2 other players in the video game indistry. the ipod maybe top. but there are hundred of other companies to battle first just to reach second place. and also phone companies. spending money maynot help them like in the case of the xbox.

[leandroc76]

Here comes the Antitrust lawsuit from Micrsoft!:o

[roland.g]

The only iPod behind the Zune on the list that Apple still makes is the U2 SE. All the others are discontinued models.

[OnceUGoMac]

I was in FYE last night, and out of curiosity, asked the sales assistant how they were selling. They hadn't sold a single one. I guess it is too early to tell. However, we joked that to many people iPod is the name for all mp3 players, kind of like Kleenex for tissues, and Coke for soda.

[brad.c]

Deep pockets or not, MS will have a struggle to find a niche. But at least they were smart enough to put in a radio.

[ipedro]

Whoever actually buys a Zune is gonna get burned. This thing is gonna get discontinued if holiday season sales are this bad. So because Zune only works with music from the Zune marketplace, if the Zune is discontinued, so is the marketplace leaving existing Zunes pretty much as paper weights.

[cecildk9999]

I know that it's not quite fair to compare the two right out of the launch (a baby product versus a mature one), but MS didn't help themselves by setting up this product to compete directly with the iPod. If they had tried to target a different market (maybe primarily video as opposed to music), they might have more success, and let the hype build from there. But the way they seem to be playing it now, they're going to just throw a lot of money into something that will be in Apple's shadow. It'll offer a compelling alternative to some, but will not necessarily convince too many to become switchers. :p

[MacBoobsPro]

Tits Up very zoon!

They should of marketed it as a Video player that plays music. That way it distinguishes itself from the iPod which is a music player that plays video. Sounds crazy but in marketing terms they are two completely different things and MS could of capitalised on this a little.

[CmdrLaForge]

In fact - that comparison is a little early. Make the same one in 5 years.

I am wondering how the comparison for the XBox vs. Playstation vs. others looked like some days after the initial start.

[BornAgainMac]

Perhaps Microsoft should have a "switch" campaign like Apple for the Zune. Showing all the wonderful things like radio and squirting music and photos.

[tuartboy]

"Microsoft is going to put tons of money in this over time, much like they did with the Xbox" video game console, she said. "It's not about the first generation (of devices)."

Isn't the non-360 version of the Xbox the first generation?

Didn't it sell very well?

[aricher]

I was in FYE last night, and out of curiosity, asked the sales assistant how they were selling. They hadn't sold a single one.

I was in a very busy SuperTarget on Black Friday and their electronics employee said they haven't sold any since the release. He also had an iPod Nano clipped to his belt and said that he's been steering people towards iPods. The Best Buy near where I live has only sold 9 Zunes since the release. Poor numbers for a holiday season.

[redAPPLE]

imo, like in sports, a loss is a loss.

[Clive At Five]

He has a point about the XBox... It did start out slower but now is surely considered a predominant player in the market (no pun intended;) ).

The only difference is that the XBox actually works...

...and Zune...

...Squirts?

So, yeah. I mean, I'd never buy an XBox, but it's still a viable option, nonetheless.

-Clive

[spicyapple]

Microsoft lost billions on the Xbox and likely to lose hundreds of millions on their Zune attempt. iPod sales have been profitable for Apple since their introduction. How one measures success in this industry can't always be marketshare.

[archurban]

zune people don't seem to agree what it is bad. they just deny the true. here what they are ridiculous.

http://www.zunescene.com/forums/index.php?topic=3784.0

[granex]

The Xbox comparison is not totally valid because in that case Microsoft could provide software support to the games makers and provide other incentives for content (as well as supplying their own games content). With the Zune (and other mp3 players) things are pretty much content neutral for the most part, except for online store purchases, where Apple has a huge advantage.

The only way that Microsoft can use their $$ to greatly influence this market is by selling the Zune for a loss (as they did for the Xbox). They really can't influence the content market in the same way, unless they start paying bands to pull their stuff from iTunes, and even then that is a small piece of the music content market.

They will have to win on features and integration -- so they are pretty much doomed. They have essentially bet the whole farm on the wireless exchange. We'll see how that works, but it is a density dependent advantage (if there are not enough Zunes around then there is no advantage to being able to exchange with people). Some animal species go extinct even when they are at reasonably large numbers when their relative density falls so low that they can't effectively find mates. This is called the Allee effect. If the density of Zunes does not increase above a certain critical level, even assuming that people want to squirt songs (or whatever it's called), then they are really out of luck.

A cheap, powerful Xbox with lots of cool games has value right from the start. Microsoft could buy your love in this case.

[Clive At Five]

Microsoft lost billions on the Xbox and likely to lose hundreds of millions on their Zune attempt. iPod sales have been profitable for Apple since their introduction. How one measures success in this industry can't always be marketshare.

Yes, the XBox was sold at a loss, but now they are a powerful and permanent player in the multi-billion-dollar gaming console industry. They'll make back their billions by the time "XBox 2πr" comes out.

The Zune is a different story:

[Zune] will have to win on features and integration -- so they are pretty much doomed. They have essentially bet the whole farm on the wireless exchange.

Nail on head, my friend. Nail on head.

See ya later, Zune.

-Clive

[blilly]

It's far too early to make comparisons . . . . the competition is good and I think even Apple enjoys the challenge. I don't like this "us vs. them" attitude that seems to be so pervasive with the Zune . . even more, it seems, than with the OS wars . . . .

[dmaxdmax]

I was in a Best Buy the day before Thanksgiving and an employee told me they sold 4 Zunes that morning because they were out of stock on iPods. More were to be delivered that afternoon so he expected iPods to rule Friday. (as well they should)

For MS the Zune is as much about strategy as anything. If they believe it's a necessary product it will be easy to justify extraordinary marketing spending. Apple has shown them there is no shame in a 5% market share if you believe in your product and have patience.

MS hasn't bet the farm on anything. It bought into the game with a moderately high ante and has many many chips in its stack. Just because they aren't usually smart doesn't mean they will always be stupid. It could come down to Gates' successor's vision which won't be known til he's sitting in the big chair.

[fixyourthinking]

My local Office Depot has sold 1 (one) (a white one) since it launched. They have 8 in stock.

I predict it will be one of the biggest flops in consumer history but will be sugarcoated for many more months to come.

I also predict that Apple will beat the iPod holiday sales estimates by greater than 10%.

MSNBC or the Today show will certainly try to do other "puff pieces" to hype it (the Zune) up.

[karlfranz]

Last week I was at my local Best Buy with a friend and we stopped at the MP3 player display to see the Zune for the first time. They had a black and a brown model on display. We were commenting on the ugly brown color when the salesguy told us they had actually sold one of the brown ones. We asked him what he thought about the Zune and his response was that it really wasn't too bad a player and showed some potential. He then said that, unfortunately, both the units on display were already broken so he couldn't shows us any features. We couldn't stop laughing as we walked away.

Two days later I was at another friends' house for Thanksgiving dinner. I told him about the Zunes at Best Buy and how I couldn't try them out because they were broken. He disappeared into another room and reappeared with a brown Zune he had bought a few days earlier. My reply to him was "So you were the one that bought the brown Zune"!

[vincebio]

In fact - that comparison is a little early. Make the same one in 5 years.


yeah.....

Peter O - 'remember 4 years ago when microsoft tried to bring an out ipod thingy called Zoine, or something like that' :rolleyes:

Steve J - 'not really'

Peter O - 'in fact, what ever happened to microsoft anyway?'

Steve - 'Who Cares?'

[blindzero]

guys i think you're being too hard on zune. play with one. it's not THAT bad. it's ugly, but the interface isn't bad at all. I don't plan on buying a zune (my ipod is fine and i'm waiting on a video pod), but it's good to have it in the marketplace for competition sake. maybe apple will actually pay attention to some of the features like the built in radio tuner which is a nobrainer...

[vitaflo]

Microsoft lost billions on the Xbox and likely to lose hundreds of millions on their Zune attempt. iPod sales have been profitable for Apple since their introduction. How one measures success in this industry can't always be marketshare.

Given that the Xbox's market share was only about 20%, you probably can't use market share as a measure either.

[kildjean]

I work in an EB Games in Maryland. We received like 6 units and have only sold 3 of them. People seem to like the black one over the other colors. We have to tell people about this POS, or else... but most of the people that come in just ask about it in curiosity and they mostly are waiting what apple is goinig to draw out of the hat next.

If apple draws out whatever they are planning for the next ipod as evveryone thinks (sometime in january 2007), its going to kill the zune.

[Eraserhead]

I remember playing on an XBox soon after it came out, it had Halo and a Hard drive, which made it better hardware-wise than the PS2 and it had a really good exclusive game (though GTA which is on the PS2 is better). So I don't think the XBox was too bad really. I don't think comparisons can be made with the Zune this time.

[gugy]

Is anybody surprise by this?
Seriously we knew this all along.
Plus, what surprises me is that Microsoft did no TV advertising for the Zune at all. So many people out there have no idea it even exists.

Zune has no chance until they have an integration like ipod and itunes have. Maybe in Vista they will have a chance to get that but my feeling is too late for them.
Apple will not let down and I am pretty sure before spring we'll see updates across the ipod line and maybe finally the widescreen ipod.

[ottoworks]

I've been watching Zune slip in the Amazon rankings for days. It's been a steady decline, and as of now it's 97th in Electronics. A few more hours, and, perhaps: bye bye!

Cheers,

Otto

[OdduWon]

Deep pockets or not, MS will have a struggle to find a niche. But at least they were smart enough to put in a radio.

Agreed, even though am/Fm is in decline, People STILL LOVE FM, there are some great indie college stations around. Which if i could listen to on my ipod i would. If every ipod had a tuner then people on campus could all listen, and experience the same thing. outside the station on campus they have speakers playing whats on air. People gather in the courtyard and socialize, at certain times probbably too. This could be a easy feature to add with big impact.

Also, :D , Perhaps the current iPod fm adapter will become the iStation/PodCaster? A light to signal on air, and others can tune in to hear your playlists or some type of browsing or podcast viewing emitted from the shuffle sized transmitter:rolleyes:

[Unspeaked]

I know that it's not quite fair to compare the two right out of the launch (a baby product versus a mature one), but MS didn't help themselves by setting up this product to compete directly with the iPod. If they had tried to target a different market (maybe primarily video as opposed to music), they might have more success, and let the hype build from there. But the way they seem to be playing it now, they're going to just throw a lot of money into something that will be in Apple's shadow. It'll offer a compelling alternative to some, but will not necessarily convince too many to become switchers. :p


Wow. Substitute "Mac OS" for "Zune" and "Windows" for "iPod" and that could have been any random post on Mac Rumors from the last five years!

;)

[Doctor Q]

Money talks. A big ad campaign will produce much increased Zune sales.

And it's also true for Apple. Many people buy iPods because they have seen all of those TV ads and billboards, not because they did extensive comparison shopping.

Come to think of it, a good number of iPod purchasers are filling demands of their kids, who specifically plead for iPods. And kids are greatly influenced by advertising.

[Flowbee]

I don't think I've seen a single Zune ad on TV since its launch.

[war]

For all those people talking about XBox let's not forget one major thing about it. It took off because of Halo. What you may not know is that Halo was originally a mac game from a mac developer that MS bought in 2000. Read up on it to tell your MS fanboi friends here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bungie_Studios

Without Apple gaming there probably would be no XBox today.

Enjoy

[SplinterCell]

Microsoft lost billions on the Xbox and likely to lose hundreds of millions on their Zune attempt. iPod sales have been profitable for Apple since their introduction. How one measures success in this industry can't always be marketshare.

Do you have anything to support that MS lost billions on the xbox, I heard it was more like they broke even...

[Stridder44]

For all those people talking about XBox let's not forget one major thing about it. It took off because of Halo. What you may not know is that Halo was originally a mac game from a mac developer that MS bought in 2000. Read up on it to tell your MS fanboi friends here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bungie_Studios

Without Apple gaming there probably would be no XBox today.

Enjoy


Wow! That was new to me! The more you know I guess..

[twoodcc]

yeah i'm sure the Zune will evenually sell. but i don't think it'll sell like the ipod though

[XForge]

I thought Ihnatko's take on the Zune was particularly amusing:

http://www.suntimes.com/technology/ihnatko/147048,CST-FIN-Andy23.article

[Maimon Mons]

...here is a link (http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/11631/) to the CNN review of the zune. I wouldn't be surprised if they were payed by Apple given how it ends.

For what it's worth, the first zune on the amazon.com list shows up at #21 at the moment. Out of the top 10, 8 are ipods and the other 2 are sandisk models. Zune is beaten out by the 80 GB ipod in addition to the cheaper models.

[CEAbiscuit]

guys i think you're being too hard on zune. play with one. it's not THAT bad. it's ugly, but the interface isn't bad at all. I don't plan on buying a zune (my ipod is fine and i'm waiting on a video pod), but it's good to have it in the marketplace for competition sake. maybe apple will actually pay attention to some of the features like the built in radio tuner which is a nobrainer...

I played with it in a Target over the weekend. It IS THAT bad. I agree with the competition aspect, but the the things comes off clunky and akward...

[MattG]

Heh.

Suck it, Microsoft :cool:

Do you have anything to support that MS lost billions on the xbox, I heard it was more like they broke even...

I watched a television show on the history of video games a couple of weeks ago. I forget what channel it was on...History or Discovery or something like that, but I specifically remember them saying that Microsoft lost a lot of money on the xbox, but that they didn't care...they just wanted to get their foot in the door.

I think it was this show:
http://games.ign.com/articles/744/744878p1.html

[Doctor Q]

...here is a link (http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/11631/) to the CNN review of the zune. I wouldn't be surprised if they were payed by Apple given how it ends.Woah, that was one scathing review! Just one man's opinion, perhaps, but one that many will see.

[Mainyehc]

MS hasn't bet the farm on anything. It bought into the game with a moderately high ante and has many many chips in its stack. Just because they aren't usually smart doesn't mean they will always be stupid. It could come down to Gates' successor's vision which won't be known til he's sitting in the big chair.

Erm... So you're calling a slightly reheated Toshiba Gigabeat-POS with pseudo-WiFi (sure, it may be fully enabled in the future, but with a screen with that resolution, it'd be preety much useless) a "moderately high ante"?

I'm figuring they are getting more and more stupid, each and every day that passes. Read a bit of Daniel Eran's RoughlyDrafted Magazine (http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/Home/Home.html), and you'll know what I mean by "stupid"...

And by the way, there's already a "Gates' sucessor", and I'm talking about the CEO title, not the Chairman... Come to think about it, Ballmer is already a "chair-man" of sorts... :D And we all know how smart that guy is. :rolleyes:

[SplinterCell]

Heh.

Suck it, Microsoft :cool:



I watched a television show on the history of video games a couple of weeks ago. I forget what channel it was on...History or Discovery or something like that, but I specifically remember them saying that Microsoft lost a lot of money on the xbox, but that they didn't care...they just wanted to get their foot in the door.

I think it was this show:
http://games.ign.com/articles/744/744878p1.html

Just last week I was watching Larry King interview Bill Gates & one the topics was the first gen xbox & Bill Gates said they broke even on the xbox but still considered it a success because they had a good position in the market.

[0010101]

I think it's way to early to make any judgments regarding Zune sales. Let's see what the numbers look like after Christmas.

5 years ago, Zune, in it's current form, might have been a hit.. but not in todays market. Especially considering folks who have lots of money tied up in MP3's aren't going to be real interested in throwing them away, and starting all over again.. or spend countless hours converting thousands of files.

I don't find it ugly, but I sure don't care for the brown color. What I noticed most about the Zune is that it feels and looks cheap in person. Like what i'd expect a mockup or prototype unit to look and feel like. From a distance, it looks fine.. you get close up, and.. well.. not so nice.

Almost like they rushed it to market in time for the '06 Holiday buying season.

Apple has the portable MP3 player market locked up.. with models in all but the lowest price ranges.. and the Zune sure is no immediate threat.

Comparisons of the Zune to the Xbox are not really fair.. they are two entirely different products.

Microsoft (as well as Sony and Nintendo) can sell the unit itself for at or below their actual cost, because where they make the real money isn't in selling the game console, but in selling the games and accessories.

With MP3 players, you have to make money on the product sale, because there is no guarantee the end user will buy all their music from your 'store'.

Zune specs are subject to change.. as are most retail products. Don't forget that when the iPod was first introduced, it only worked with Macs.. then they made a Windows version.. then finally they made an iPod that worked with either computer.

I expect a new version of the Zune by spring.. with new features, and less restriction.

[dashiel]

microsoft loses money on pretty much every product segment they have except office and windows. though xbox does look like it will be profitable soon enough.

[MisterMe]

Do you have anything to support that MS lost billions on the xbox, I heard it was more like they broke even...I have no idea where you got that one from. The original Xbox never made a profit. Microsoft is deliberately selling the Xbox 360 at a loss to capture marketshare. However, the PS3 and Ninetindo Wii are selling like hotcakes, are latest big things, and have the buzz. The best laid plans ...

[Mainyehc]

Money talks. A big ad campaign will produce much increased Zune sales.

And it's also true for Apple. Many people buy iPods because they have seen all of those TV ads and billboards, not because they did extensive comparison shopping.

Come to think of it, a good number of iPod purchasers are filling demands of their kids, who specifically plead for iPods. And kids are greatly influenced by advertising.

Which kids? The same kids who are specifically pleading for MacBooks? ... Windows, and the ever-uncool Microsoft is getting long in the tooth (and those who may want Vista will have to start thinking about replacing their old PCs anyway), and and the Zune is too late in the game. It doesn't matter that they have 95% of PC marketshare and a lot of money to burn. So did the Roman Empire, for that matter (money, not marketshare :p )! Remember what that guy from Creative said about "spending billions on advertising"? Dit it work? They even had to resort to a foul patent infringement lawsuit to earn some cash and keep afloat!

Sure, if there's a company that can easily perform a media-blitz, it's Microsoft, but OTOH, if there's a company which is ALREADY doing it (try "doing it from day one"), it's Apple... It's actually quite impressive for such a small company! But then again, everything Apple does is quite impressive on its own. ;)

Anyway, isn't Apple historically a very marketing-happy company? "1984", "Lemmings", "Think Different", "Switch", "Silhouettes", now the "Get a Mac" campaign... Unlike a company we know, which is almost exclusively marketing-driven (FUD, vaporware, "Office Dinossaurs", "Start... something... whatever"... "Welcome to the Social", WTF?... :rolleyes: ). Apple has a top notch product, and M$ does not. And they will certainly respond if M$ even attempts doing something that remotely resembles a media-blitz, and will certainly come out on top (especially if, as a product-driven company that they are, they keep coming up with a stream of new, competitive iPods...).

The Zune is DOA, I'm afraid... And Microsoft isn't looking too good, either, and even though they'll still be around 10-15 years from now, they probably won't reach their 50th anniversary (unlike Apple, I'm guessing)... I might be wrong, but IMHO, this whole Zune-to-be debacle will be the first (or is it?) among many nails in M$'s coffin, because in this case they initially set out to compete with an established and nearly invincible leader, unlike their constant (and not that successful) attempts at controling emerging markets. Honestly, why does M$ keeps trying to "innovate" on each and every market, instead of just focusing on the PC platform? They are only making fools of themselves by reusing (our outright copying) other companies' designs, by slapping stock photos and un-catchy slogans all over their software and websites, etc... :rolleyes:

People may have fallen for their lines for 20+ years, but they may one day wise up as far as the PC market is concerned, I hope (of course, someone would have to come up with a viable Windows competitor, whether Apple's own OS X - not very likely for reasons everyone in this board is more than aware of -, or some OSS driven platform, who knows?)... Because they're already showing signs of that on the consumer electronics market. :cool:

[AvSRoCkCO1067]

Microsoft lost billions on the Xbox and likely to lose hundreds of millions on their Zune attempt. iPod sales have been profitable for Apple since their introduction. How one measures success in this industry can't always be marketshare.

One of the best points I've read so far - and one that I wish more people would apply to Apple's share in the computer market...:)

[SplinterCell]

I have no idea where you got that one from. The original Xbox never made a profit. Microsoft is deliberately selling the Xbox 360 at a loss to capture marketshare. However, the PS3 and Ninetindo Wii are selling like hotcakes, are latest big things, and have the buzz. The best laid plans ...

It may not be true that they broke even, it's just something I thought I heard on a tv interview...

Sony is selling the PS3 at a loss as well, Nintendo I'm sure is making money on the Wii...

There was also a lot of buzz for the 360 a launch & after, MS has sold over 15 million XBOX 360's in the last year, so I think they have done pretty well....

I don't think Sony has the best plan, if they did they would have launched earlier, had more units at launch & not be so overpriced...

[Blue Velvet]

Honestly, why does M$ keeps trying to "innovate" on each and every market, instead of just focusing on the PC platform?


Because they fear the iPod and what it — and its ecosystem — may potentially evolve into; becoming a platform in its own right, particularly with the convergence of multimedia in the home.

[dmaxdmax]

Erm... So you're calling a slightly reheated Toshiba Gigabeat-POS with pseudo-WiFi (sure, it may be fully enabled in the future, but with a screen with that resolution, it'd be preety much useless) a "moterately high ante"?

<snip>

And by the way, there's already a "Gates' sucessor", and I'm talking about the CEO title, not the Chairman... Come to think about it, Ballmer is already a "chair-man" of sorts... :D And we all know how smart that guy is. :rolleyes:

What I meant by moderately high ante was the dollars spent, not the product.

I don't think we'll know what MS executives will do when Gates leaves until he's gone. Even Mr. B.

Don't get me wrong - I think the Zune is crap. However it's always foolish to ignore the 800 pound gorilla, even when it's lazy and clueless. They can wake up and buy clues.

[jbelkin]

The problem with the Amazon chart is you can guess a Thursday at 5 PM ranking is better than a Sunday at 4 AM ranking but it's hard to tell exactly if one means sales of 1,000 and one means sales of 18 - last time I checked, the Zune was 48 with a couple ipod cases selling better but of course, it's better to crowd the top 10.

Yea, MS still thinks it's 1992. Notice how they trumped the Zune would be in 30,000 stores versus 10,000 for the ipod? Does anyoen want to point out the internet to MS? That no matter what town I live in, in 1992 I might've had 1 choice in buying consumer electronics but now I can be in Middle Nowhere, North Dakota and literally have 100,000 stores + eBay at my fingertips? And where Ms counts on - no choice but ours to buy - the default choice - iPods on the other hand are not at Walgreens or 7-11 but people still find them ... amazing what world class hardware, software and online store will do for you.

Ms doesn't understand why when consumers have a real choice, they seldom choose MS products (webtv, talking barney's, watch OS or Melinda Gates' last MS project - the answer to OS7, MS Bob).

Looks like Steve ballmer's stock holdings are going to need some more propping up.

[840quadra]

I have faith that the Zune will do better, based upon the installed base of Xbox users in the world. All it will take is some killer Xbox linked feature that either takes advantage of, or can be somehow linked to the Zune.

[Mainyehc]

Because they fear the iPod and what it — and its ecosystem — may potentially evolve into; becoming a platform in its own right, particularly with the convergence of multimedia in the home.

Yes, I though about it... It was a rhetorical question of sorts, anyway. ;)

I'm also figuring they are afraid of the "Halo effect" (pun intended :D), as that'd explain the whole shebang. They were ALWAYS afraid of losing their leadership on the PC market, and that their iron-like grip would turn loose. The problem is, they grew lazy, and are preety much aware of that, as their delays in delivering Vista prove.

"So, let's just try to find some other markets to tap into, 'just in case' ", they probably thought...

That explains the XBox, the WebTV, Windows CE, Windows Mobile, and whatnot. The Zune is just the latest iteration of that behaviour, and more specifically an attempt at stopping the advance of Apple, the iPod, and ESPECIALLY the Mac/OS X platform (while your theory certainly seems interesting, iTV won't be such a threat to Microsoft as it'll most likely be fully compatible with a Windows PC running iTunes, as are the iPod and Airport Express... But it's a valid point, nonetheless :cool: ). iPod+iTunes users can buy a Mac and keep using their nice Apple gear (and even Windows if they really must), while becoming hooked up to the rest of their iLives at the same time, whereas Zune users... well, they can hook up in basements and squirt around, and that preety much sums it up. Or they can suck up and throw them in their drawers and buy an iPod "the next time", which is the most likely scenario.

So this seems to be just a desperation move by M$, in anticipation, but the media (or the market, for that matter) doesn't really get it... In preety much the same way that they didn't get it in 2001, when the iPod was initially launched. <manic speech> Five years from now, we'll be laughing our a**es off at yet some other random M$ failure, and fondly remembering the Zune as the beginning of the end. Muhahahahaha </manic speech>... :p

[archurban]

zune, zune, zune. it's like crackin'lacking! hilarious. :p

[barkins]

Why are we still talking about the Zune. Does anyone really care? It's just another mp3 player among so many others behind iPod. :rolleyes:

It will never match the iPod's popularity, ever.

[TheBobcat]

MS did sell the Xbox at a loss. They were still losing money at $299 a pop and had to lower to $199 to keep up with Sony's unexpected price drop the spring after it came out. I seem to remember that the per-unit cost to make an Xbox was somewhere around 420-450 per unit.

However, MS did some things very well with the Xbox that caused it to succeed. First, they bought a lot of game developers to create games for it. They struck gold with Halo, and that alone caused a lot of people to buy it.

The second was the built-in hard drive, which allowed for expanded functionality in games as well as an end to costly memory cards being required.

The third, and biggest, was a true innovation in online play. Xbox Live was the first system to standardize online names, messages, and supported technologies across a whole set of games. MS was the only player that took online seriously, and they capitalized, big time. Nintendo still really doesn't care, and Sony has effectively copied MS's innovations for PS3. MS didn't invent online play, but they brought it to the masses in a way that was easy and fun. Slice it any way you want it, MS really innovated and executed Xbox Live.

Xbox relatively succeeded for those reasons. However, all of those things are virtual non-factors to the Zune. Zune (as of now) has no exclusive content, it has no revolutionary built-in feature, and has no real huge innovation to the way music is listened to, or a better execution thereof. All it really has is a stretched iPod-res screen, and very limited Wifi connectivity between Zunes.

[princealfie]

I got a brown one. Not too shabby. Of course, I can't wait for the shuffle too :)

[stcanard]

It may not be true that they broke even, it's just something I thought I heard on a tv interview...

I suspect its all in the definition, I'll bet the "Xbox Division" broke even, which would be a very different thing because that would mean the video games and licensing made enough money to balance the losses from the console. Of course make those games for the PS2, and they would have been profitable instead of break even, but that wasn't the point. The point was to gain foothold in a new market.

Sony is selling the PS3 at a loss as well, Nintendo I'm sure is making money on the Wii...

I don't think I'd hold up Sony as an example of how to innovate and market -- they lost their focus decades ago. Aside from the walkman, let's see what products has Sony pushed in the last 30 years...

Beta
MiniDisc
Memory Stick
ATRAC

Now we sit back and see if the PS3 and Blu-Ray follow the recent trend. If we're comparing Microsoft to Sony that's what you have to look forward to.

[Clive At Five]

Because they fear the iPod... and its ecosystem...

This is key for sure. The success of the iPod is directly attributed to its integrated "ecosystem" as you put it. iTS, iTunes, iPod.

Slowly but surely, with movies, photos and games - and MUCH talk of cell phone syncing with iCal, Address Book and iApps - Apple is attempting to tie iLife & OS X into the equation... making it a critical and integral part of that ecosystem.

If people wanted the full iPod experience, they NEEDED iTunes... so they adopted it. In the future, with product XYZ, people will NEED OS X for the full experience... and they will adopt it.

THAT is what MS fears about Apple/iPod. They could give a rat's ass about the portable music/media market. They just want desperately to kill the iPod and what it means for MS's future.

In my opinion, they should've undersold by $50+/unit. At their current rate, they'll never penetrate the market.

-Clive

[czardmitri]

one of the key differences between the xbox and zune. is that microsoft only had to contend with 2 other players in the video game indistry. the ipod maybe top. but there are hundred of other companies to battle first just to reach second place. and also phone companies. spending money maynot help them like in the case of the xbox.

The main difference (as I understand it) is that MS can at least attempt to make up for their losses on the sales of xBoxes from the games that are licensed for xBox. They can't do the same with music for the money they're losing on each Zune sold. Apple's margin on music is slim; they make money on the iPods.

[ju5tin81]

zune people don't seem to agree what it is bad. they just deny the true. here what they are ridiculous.

http://www.zunescene.com/forums/index.php?topic=3784.0

I am pro Apple, But I've never read such pro Apple posts in all my life... I doubt many real Zune users got a look in since you linked to that! :D

[flopticalcube]

Beta
MiniDisc
Memory Stick
ATRAC


PSone & PS2?
HandyCam?

Like MS, the winners pay for the losers. As a trader once told me, you only have to be right 51% of the time to make a profit.

[dguisinger]

It may not be true that they broke even, it's just something I thought I heard on a tv interview...

Sony is selling the PS3 at a loss as well, Nintendo I'm sure is making money on the Wii...

There was also a lot of buzz for the 360 a launch & after, MS has sold over 15 million XBOX 360's in the last year, so I think they have done pretty well....

I don't think Sony has the best plan, if they did they would have launched earlier, had more units at launch & not be so overpriced...

Actually, I'll make some corrections for you:
Sony is losing $241 (source: iSuppli) on each PS3 at RETAIL pricing. We all know that Sony sells to distributors who sell to retailers, all of whom profit, so if you accept a 30% combined margin you are talking well over $300 loss per console. Their games are also in the $70 range to make up for it.

iSupply also states that the xbox 360 costs $323 for the premium unit to build; at $76 less than the retail price. After the channel margins are taken out, Microsoft is breaking even. Microsoft is already a year into things, and is about to release a cheaper xbox 360 using 65nm parts, which will save them even more. All in all, Microsoft is looking fairly good this time around for turning a profit. Infact, in an interview this past week I read that the Entertainment division would have turned a profit this year if it wasn't for the Zune.

As far as # of units sold:
XBox sold 27 million units
Xbox 360 has sold 7 million so far, and Microsoft expects to sell a total of 10 million by year end.
Sony has sold 200,000 units in the US, and won't hit 400,000 at year end.
Wii has sold 400,000 units, and will hit an estimated 4 million by year end.

The Xbox 360 and Wii also both have very high software attach rates (I've bought 5 titles already for my Wii); and Microsoft i'm sure is making a killing on Live.

[asphalt-proof]

People forget that MS has dominated pretty much every market they enter. Whether it be PDAs, PC desktops, Office software suites, internet browsers, and gaming (did I miss any other markets?). Yes, in almost every instance, their initial products leave much to be desired(XBOX+Halo excepted) but they pretty much rose to the occasion and soon took over the market. Partly because their competitors don't respond to MS's moves. Zune, in its current iteration, does not scare me, but if Apple decides the status quo is cool, then the ZUne could become a force. However, I doubt that Apple will stay seated. Com'n iPhone, vPod, PodCar, whatever!!! :p

[czardmitri]

Is anybody surprise by this?
Seriously we knew this all along.
Plus, what surprises me is that Microsoft did no TV advertising for the Zune at all. So many people out there have no idea it even exists.

Zune has no chance until they have an integration like ipod and itunes have. Maybe in Vista they will have a chance to get that but my feeling is too late for them.
Apple will not let down and I am pretty sure before spring we'll see updates across the ipod line and maybe finally the widescreen ipod.

I saw a zune ad on TV the other night. The same sweaty teenagers as in every other Zune ad. This time they were breaking through a fence or something. Then "Welcome to the Social" appeared over it. I don't think they showed the actual Zune at all.

[ju5tin81]

I have no idea where you got that one from. The original Xbox never made a profit. Microsoft is deliberately selling the Xbox 360 at a loss to capture marketshare. However, the PS3 and Ninetindo Wii are selling like hotcakes, are latest big things, and have the buzz. The best laid plans ...

No real, true, stats on that one yet. Moving on...

However, the one thing I'm amazed at... The EU has this whole 'Anti-trust' thing going on with M$ at the mo...

How can this company, legally, be allowed to sell their product at a loss with the sole intention being: capturing market share? Isn't this: putting £€$ behind a product to guarantee a products sucess ( & break smaller companies, not nessecarily Apple) : hugely illegal, and destroying consumer choice? Whether it be Zune, XboX whateva... :confused:

I'm amazed that this practice is tollerated, let alone endorsed by the music lables, and their little $1 per Zune thang... I thought they were worried about APPLE being in control, never mind M$.... :eek:

[flopticalcube]

As far as # of units sold:
XBox sold 27 million units
Xbox 360 has sold 7 million so far, and Microsoft expects to sell a total of 10 million by year end.
Sony has sold 200,000 units in the US, and won't hit 400,000 at year end.
Wii has sold 400,000 units, and will hit an estimated 4 million by year end.


Console sales (http://nexgenwars.com/)

Go Wii!

[840quadra]

I don't think I'd hold up Sony as an example of how to innovate and market -- they lost their focus decades ago. Aside from the walkman, let's see what products has Sony pushed in the last 30 years...

Beta
MiniDisc
Memory Stick
ATRAC

Now we sit back and see if the PS3 and Blu-Ray follow the recent trend. If we're comparing Microsoft to Sony that's what you have to look forward to.

Sorry to have to say this, but the Playstation and PS2 (early years) were a great success.

The PS3 was late, but it is still too early ( like the Zune) to discount it as a good device or threat.

[Mainyehc]

What I meant by moderately high ante was the dollars spent, not the product.

I don't think we'll know what MS executives will do when Gates leaves until he's gone. Even Mr. B.

Don't get me wrong - I think the Zune is crap. However it's always foolish to ignore the 800 pound gorilla, even when it's lazy and clueless. They can wake up and buy clues.

Yes, of course... that "gorilla"-thing is a fairly good point. But don't forget about that pervasive M$ corporate culture. I'm not talking about laborious employees, like programmers or designers, which are mostly very talented people (it's not their fault - at least, not of all of them - that they have to deal with dumb business decisions and craptastic 10-20-year-old-code). I'm talking about management, which, as it seems, is quite rotten at Microsoft, and probably not just at the core. And to make things worse, there is no "Jobs" waiting on the wings to salvage Microsoft from itself, and that will be the sole reason why they won't last long (would've Apple had, if not for Steve and NeXT?)...

As for buying clues, sure! Maybe they'll hire someone from outside. But naaah, they're too proud to change their ways, I guess... They didn't do it in 20 years time, so why would they now? Sure, the XBox was a small glimpse of "innovation" (albeit not THAT useful for their survival as a company), but meh, a bit lackluster while compared with iPod+iTunes (which, ironically, were partly developed by outsiders) and the effect they had on Apple...

And as for their investment, I STILL don't get it! I mean, they didn't even bother about condensing the Zune to be more attractive... Is its thickness a side effect of having a WiFi chip inside, or a reflex of M$'s design team's incompetence at "refreshing" a 3rd party product? Was it an item SO EXPENSIVE to "develop"? And they didn't took the steps to develop an interesting alternative to the click wheel, anyway. AND its interface, from what I can tell (I haven't had the chance to try it yet, as I live in Europe... :rolleyes: :D ), is nothing special, it's just an iPod-like menu scheme with some wallpapers plastered underneath it... Big deal!

Look at the nano and the shuffle (and even the 5G). Now there are some examples of some impressive and probably expensive industrial design...

[macoldie]

Zune is suffering from doing too much too soon. With Vista launch, Zune launch and its music server and its current track of forming partnerships just to cut vendors and customers off, the future looks bleak.

When Apple started, they paid attention to its customers offering iTunes first. As customer grew to like iTunes as a music library, Apple intorduced iPod. "You already have it on your system, now take it with you." Over the years, Apple grew its interest, and improved the software along withi its hardware.

I aggree with other posters in a vairety of forums that most will take a "wait and see" with Zune. Toom much coming at their customer base.

[dmaxdmax]

And to make things worse, there is no "Jobs" waiting on the wings to salvage Microsoft from itself, and that will be the sole reason why they won't last long (would've Apple had, if not for Steve and NeXT?)...

As for buying clues, sure! Maybe they'll hire someone from outside. But naaah, they're too proud to change their ways, I guess...

I agree with almost everything you wrote (you're a pretty smart guy!) but offer two comments:

1 - We don't know there isn't a Jobs waiting in the wings. We also don't know there isn't a Jobs in the #2 spot at some Fortune 50 company who could be in a MS executive suite in 3 years.

2 - MS being "too proud" is exactly the kind of thing I mean when I write about not being able to predict the post-Bill future. He is certainly too proud but who knows about Bill 2.0?

You make the point about the rank-and-file being mostly very talented and I agree. If MS gets executives who stay out of the way who knows what Zune 3.0 will be like?

[spicyapple]

...here is a link (http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/11631/) to the CNN review of the zune.
It's funny when Soledad asks if it can do email. She might have thought so because of its size compared with the Blackberry. And then she whips out the shuffle... OMG that is classic.

Does anyone remember Soledad in a kid's computer TV show some years back? She played a computer....

[pyramid6]

I would argue, that MS success isn't because of it's OS, it's because of third party support.

Take Windows. It's horrible, but too many companies have too much software invested in Windows software.
Take the XBox, the X box was built on DirectX, which made it much easier to program than the PS2. So third party companies could program for the XBox.

The Zune is from scratch, no third party companies to help push it. No corprate ITs to demand you buy it and use it.

The Zune is what Microsoft is without its monopoly.

[ericmooreart]

Friend of mine at work bought the Zune. First thing that hit me was the "poop" brown color - uck. It had a rubbery feel (guess it won't slip from your hands) like the protectors you can get for the ipod. Was hard to get in and out of my back pocket due to the coating and brick thickness.

I like that it played your videos landscape, though navagation became tricky.

For all its bells and whistles I wouldn't buy it. Design matters. If it didn't i'd still be using my anti skip cd- mp3 player. I own a nano and have had every generation ipod except the first and the zune seems like the 1st generation ipod in respect to design and clunkiness. Microsoft should stick with the xbox

[mambodancer]

Here's a great review by Chicago Sun Times writer Andy Ihnatko. Aside from being quiet humorous, it brings up some points about the Zune I hadn't known. The article starts out this way...

Avoid the loony Zune

November 23, 2006
BY ANDY IHNATKO
Yes, Microsoft's new Zune digital music player is just plain dreadful. I've spent a week setting this thing up and using it, and the overall experience is about as pleasant as having an airbag deploy in your face.

Read the article here: http://www.suntimes.com/technology/ihnatko/147048,CST-FIN-Andy23.article

[Mainyehc]

I agree with almost everything you wrote (you're a pretty smart guy!) but offer two comments:

1 - We don't know there isn't a Jobs waiting in the wings. We also don't know there isn't a Jobs in the #2 spot at some Fortune 50 company who could be in a MS executive suite in 3 years.

2 - MS being "too proud" is exactly the kind of thing I mean when I write about not being able to predict the post-Bill future. He is certainly too proud but who knows about Bill 2.0?

You make the point about the rank-and-file being mostly very talented and I agree. If MS gets executives who stay out of the way who knows what Zune 3.0 will be like?

Why, thanks! English isn't even my native language... And I'm not a long-time Apple user either. But I suppose three years worth of using Macs and hangin' around MacRumors:Forums also helped, as did reading a lot (well, way too much, really) about the computer industry's history! :p

Your points are, of course, fairly good. But this is just a clear example of me playing the role of the "ominous wishful thinker", and you that of the "devil's advocate". So I surely hope I'm right in my predictions; even though I know competition is a good thing, arguing that competition from Microsoft could possibly be a "good" thing is nothing short of an oxymoron (I'm not saying that's your opinion. The problem is, if it's you who turns out to be right, that's what the Zune will become: competition! :p ). Let's hope that some worthy competitors, both on the cosumer electronics and the PC hardware/software/operating systems, OTHER than Microsoft emerge to give Apple some eventually needed "kicks in the butt", so they don't become lazy. ;)

'Course, if Microsoft could, hypothetically, stop being such an evil company, I'd certainly overlook their shady past and could even, Jobs forbid!, use some of their products (provided they'd be up to my typical Mac User's standards :rolleyes: ). :D

[stcanard]

Originally Posted by stcanard
Beta
MiniDisc
Memory Stick
ATRAC
PSone & PS2?
HandyCam?

I think you're missing my point, but maybe I didn't explain it well enough.

Yes, the PSone, PS2, and HandyCam are succesful items that probably make money as one of the many entries in the field. As are Sony TV's, speakers, etc.

But they fail at the one thing Sony has been repeatedly trying to do, what Microsoft always tries to do, and what Microsoft is trying to do with the XBox and the Zune -- become the one runaway standard that everybody uses and becomed synonymous with the market.

Think Walkman and iPod. Think IE (until recently, when firefox has finally started to come back) -- Beta, MiniDisk, Memory Sticks, ATRAC were all attempts to repeat this, and have failed miserably. Blu-Ray is an attempt as well, and I'm not holding my breath.

Sony is showing that they are now completely incapable of creating that single iconic product ever again, and have been for some time. The post I was responding to was comparing Microsoft to Sony's marketing, which I don't think is positive, from that point of view.

[stcanard]

I would argue, that MS success isn't because of it's OS, it's because of third party support.

Repeat after me:

The monopoly is not Windows. The monopoly is MS Word.

[Maestro64]

The Zune is now placing 48 position on Amazon, so not moving in a positive direction

[Leoff]

Saw this thread, read about various people's encounters with stores selling (or rather NOT selling) Zunes, and decided to check it out for myself after work. I figure "maybe some people are exaggerating their experiences?" I'll try and give the Zune the benefit of the doubt.

I go into the local Best Buy. I ask the "greeter" at the door if they have the new Zune in. She had heard of it, but she didn't know what the stock was and forwarded me onto "Jon" back in the mp3 player area.

I asked Jon if they had the new Zune. "We HAD it in stock, but I know we just ran out I can place an order for you, have it here in a couple of days!"

I was impressed. None of the instant badmouthing I'd come to expect. Untill...

"But if you don't want to wait, we've got a lot of iPods and nanos in. I'd say your best bet is to get an iPod."

I asked why, and soon learned that the store got a shipment of 8 Zunes. 4 were sold, one of which was returned that same day. 2 were put out on display, and since their introduction, they've broken and have been replaced by the two remaining Zunes in stock.

Jon seemed almost too knowledgable. He wasn't a Microsoft shill, and I could tell he wasn't a Rah-rah! Applephile. He just knew that it was a very problematic piece of hardware, pointing out the dishonest advertising of wi-fi, the odd pricing scheme at the store, and some ways to get around the repeated failures of the Zune music store software installation.

His opinion? "A good idea, but they rushed it to get it out before Christmas. They should have waited 6 months and worked the bugs out."

[rdowns]

Perhaps Microsoft should have a "switch" campaign like Apple for the Zune. Showing all the wonderful things like radio and squirting music and photos.

Radio, puhleeze. Isn't that why we have iPods? So we don't have to listen to crappy repetitive manufactured artist radio.

Squirting, huh? - I'll coin the term now. Zune Splooge™ - squirting a crappy song to my Zune.

[DaveTheGrey]

...here is a link (http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/11631/) to the CNN review of the zune. I wouldn't be surprised if they were payed by Apple given how it ends.


thanks for this
what a laugh
poor M$

[NewSc2]

Repeat after me:

The monopoly is not Windows. The monopoly is MS Word.

Word? Word's being replaced more and more by e-mail. I used to type my notes in GMail and sometimes I write essays in GMail and just copy it over to Word for formatting. AutoSave and anywhere recall is handy.

Excel on the other hand... Google and Apple are lagging there. Google Docs & Spreadsheets are still very slow, and a bit counter-intuitive.

[stcanard]

Word? Word's being replaced more and more by e-mail. I used to type my notes in GMail and sometimes I write essays in GMail

You might, but most businesses don't. Look at how many job applications require resumes in MS Word format. Its not the simple letters and essays that are the issue (especially with OOo being so good on import/export) but the complicated documents that come out of managers and product managers. With a resume I ceratainly don't want to risk that their version of word isn't quite compatible with my OOo export, but that's why I send it in PDF since I don't even trust Word.

and just copy it over to Word for formatting. AutoSave and anywhere recall is handy.

Bingo! So you do use Word. You just like to pretend you don't. (Any reason why TextEdit doesn't do enough formatting? Or Neo / OOo?)

Just about every person I know who runs Windows, when asked, says they need Word. Of course that is a great opportunity to point out they could get a Mac, and also demo NeoOffice.

I don't know anyone who runs Windows because they want to -- it is always that it came with the computer and they need Word (even if they don't, but that's a story for another day).

This, of course, is the uphill battle MS is now going to fight (to come back onto topic)

"This Zune looks nice, does it run on iTunes?"

[iMikeT]

How much money can Microsoft possibly dump into trying to destroy Apple?

[iMikeT]

It's funny when Soledad asks if it can do email. She might have thought so because of its size compared with the Blackberry. And then she whips out the shuffle... OMG that is classic.

Does anyone remember Soledad in a kid's computer TV show some years back? She played a computer....


I love how the guy presenting the Zune was speechless after Soledad brings out her shuffle.:D

[dmaxdmax]

'Course, if Microsoft could, hypothetically, stop being such an evil company, I'd certainly overlook their shady past and could even, Jobs forbid!, use some of their products (provided they'd be up to my typical Mac User's standards :rolleyes: ). :D

"Jobs forbid" - funny

Yes, their EQ (Evil Quotient) may change over time as might their global strategy. We won't know until we know, ya know?

If in 1960 you told me the day would come when IBM wouldn't make a ton of money leasing card sorters I'd have been sceptical. (many called them evil for refusing to sell card readers to companies while charging the fair market value many times over on long-term leases) If in 1990 I had told you the day would come when IBM wouldn't be in the PC business you might have been sceptical. I, a dyed in the wool Apple fan, wouldn't have predicted Apple's success 10 years ago. MS has the money and worker-bee brains to stay in any game they choose to play. They should be ashamed of the Zune and I don't understand why they rushed it to market but I don't think it's a slam-dunk that it, and they, are doomed for the trashbin of corporate history.

I wouldn't mind being wrong in the least.

[gkarris]

zune people don't seem to agree what it is bad. they just deny the true. here what they are ridiculous.

http://www.zunescene.com/forums/index.php?topic=3784.0

I consider myself more a creative person, as I've been into photography since junior high in the seventies. The whole computer geekish stuff is more a passing interest, rather than a lifestyle (I really like sci-fi, but like a lot of other movies too).

When I use my old 12" iBook G3, or my 14" iBook G4 in public, I usually get - wow, cool.

When I use my Dell from work, or my Compaq laptop, people look at me as nerdy (they come up and ask if I could help them connect to the network).

I'm tempted to go onto the above Zune website and hold a contest to see who has the best post as far as Zune being better than an iPod....

Then, gift the winner "White and Nerdy" video from Wierd Al...

Oh wait, Zune Marketplace doesn't do music videos, and the Zune won't play iTunes Store music videos either...

[vvv]

I know someone brought it up earlier, but XBOX people, XBOX. When the XBOX first came out, people said it was too big, that they didn't know what they were doing, that they would fail, and it had a pretty, ok very rocky start. And now the XBOX 360 looks like it may very well dominate this generation.....

Same with zune, it's to big, I've seen it, and it is too big, it's thick. But, it's pretty stylish, in a rusticish kinda way, and it has a very nice screen, the UI is decent, not great but decent. By the time they release Zune 360, it will have 30%+ of the market, it will be smaller, more powerful, and giving the ipod serious competition. The thing that people seem to forget is MS doesn't fail, and won't accept failure, they have decided to enter the MP3 player market, and won't leave no matter how much it costs them in losses, until they make it profitable, the XBOX 360 will just start to turn a tiny profit in a couple of months, the XBOX, I'm not sure if it ever was profitable, I believe they said from the beginning that they didn't care if it ever was. With billions of dollars to throw around, and Vista about to come out, which, lets face it, is going to be a license to print money, sinking a couple billion in to zune is not even something that will cross their mind as a bad idea. I'm sure that this first zune was to get the name out there, and announce their presence, much the same way the XBOX was there to announce their presence, get their feet wet, and learn enough to make the next one.

I own a ipod, my last mp3 player was a ipod, and the one before that was a ipod as well, and if apple is afraid of competition, then it's about time for some.

Laugh at it now, because it may be your last chance.

[tychay]

I have no idea where you got that one from. The original Xbox never made a profit. Microsoft is deliberately selling the Xbox 360 at a loss to capture marketshare. However, the PS3 and Ninetindo Wii are selling like hotcakes, are latest big things, and have the buzz. The best laid plans ...

I think the first statement is correct or close to it. They may have had a single profitable quarter when Halo 2 was released. I'm not sure because they bury games in a Microsoft Entertainment and Devices Division. Which includes their smartphone stuff (now that it has stopped bleeding money) and their profitable and acclaimed mice, keyboards, and other stuff (all manufactured by other companies, sort of like Dell, but with a nicer design).

The second part I believe is now wrong. I think the XBox 360 is no longer a loss lead, though that might change as there is some speculation that they will be dropping the price to undercut Sony soon. I believe the fact that it is no longer a loss lead is causing a confounding with the "360 is profitable" commentaries here.

Another commenter mentioned how smart it was was the XBox had a hard drive on it. I’d say if it is so smart why did Microsoft remove it in the base model 360? I’ll point out that this happened because the price of hard drives do not get any cheaper! In fact the price of commodity hardware design doesn’t get any cheaper! Huh? Hard drives get bigger, not cheaper. Processors and chips get more powerful, not cheaper.

What went on is that successive iterations of the Playstation and Playstation 2 would allow Sony to combine chips to reduce the price (and make smaller PSOne and slim-cased Playstation 2). This outlet wasn't available to Microsoft because of their design which is why the XBox was a losing money for it's entire run and Sony played games by dropping their price before it ever turned a profit.

Those two things are "of a piece". While commodity hardware was an interesting idea, it was a failure. Which is why the XBox 360 is not built from commodity PC hardware. The hard drives are a necessary evil of the "Live" strategy so they're left in as an option and bundled with the Playstation 3. That's why these 6G consoles are expensive and not dropping in price fast.

Right now all this is moot since the thing to watch is the Sony gamble on a blue laser. Obviously it will get cheaper fast, but the question is how fast and how cheap? The horrible yields on the Cell processor isn't helping things.

Currently, the XBox 360 has sold very consistently at around 1.5 million units a quarter. The XMas quarter last year had supply issues and only sold .9 million units. That's hardly dominating. In fact, I think the Playstation 2 outsold the 360 in each of those quarters even though the device is six years old. Let's put some numbers here. Last year over 100 million Playstation 2’s had been sold, six months ago, they were selling 380k/month. The XBox 360 sold 6 million units since it's introduction over a year ago, six months ago they were selling 300k/month, they had fixed the channel problems that plagued the release.

Consider this: Nintendo sold 600,000 Wiis in the last eight days. Given the scarcity of the Playstation 3 and the popularity and addictiveness of WiiSports and Zelda, they should easily crush that .9 million opening quarter of the 360. And consider this: each unit at a profit with a number of titles putting money directly in Nintendo's pocket.

I'm not claiming that the Wii will beat the 360. I'm just pointing out that according to sales numbers, the 360 is no iPod, is not trending to an iPod, will never be an iPod. The iPod sits on 75% market share. The closest thing to an iPod in the entertainment market is the Playstation 2.

Which is a big distraction from the point. And what is the point? That the XBox is a bad analogy. It is best to consider their Windows CE->Smartphone Microsoft play to see that the Zune is a bad idea. How many years and failed ideas have there been (Windows CE, Windows Mobile, PocketPC, etc. etc.)? How many billions sunk (some years more than the entire capitalization of the PDA market)? How much marketshare? 6% of smartphones, 60% of the dead-end PDA market, and most of the dead ATM teller market (because IBM did a phased pull out, not because Microsoft "won"). And even those markets are being eaten by Linux faster than Windows.

The only thing we can learn from the XBox and Microsoft is that Microsoft pees on their partners (NVidia) at the earliest opportunity. But we already knew that as soon as the Zune didn't support Plays For Sure.

[AussieRocket]

in five years neither the iPod nor the Zune will have any significance. The hardware market will be dominated by Samsung and distribution by walmart.

Samsung is becoming the most dominant consumer electronics company in the world: from LCD TVs to cell phones, to camcorders, to MP3 players. in 2006 they will have sold 150 million phones, growing much faster than Nokia and Motorola. Their camcorder business is just picking off with megapixel camcorders priced below $300. They are just now getting to be serious about the MP3 market. The YP-Z5 would have been one of the top players, had they decided to be agressive on pricing, however for some reason it's held very high selling prices throut the world. Now watch for the YP-T9, it will outsell iPod nano in 2007. It is ridiculously loaded with features and is much better priced than the Z5s.

Walmart controls 40% of DVD distribution. If the DVD goes the way of the music CD, they are not going to let this market slip away from them. They have just started selling digital downloads and have much more clout with content companies than either Microsoft or Apple.

Amazon.com rankings offer extremely limited view of the world. They are only USA, plus research shows that it is the preferred vendor for highly sophisticated users. The world is much bigger. Creative Zen Nano is #1 electronics seller at Amazon.fr and Amazon.de (France and Germany) you can check it out. Creative is not a powerhouse, though. Watch out for Samsung to start ramping up the YP-T9s next year and blow everyone out of the water. As it is now, they are on backorder and sold out at many outlets... Plus Samsung's music phones will far outsell the Iphone...

[vvv]

Which is a big distraction from the point? And what is the point? That the XBox is a bad analogy. It is best to consider their Windows CE->Smartphone one to see that the Zune is a bad idea. The only thing we can learn from the XBox and Microsoft is that Microsoft pees on their partners (NVidia) at the earliest opportunity. But we already knew that as soon as the Zune didn't support Plays For Sure.


MS never made a smartphone, they make the windows mobile software that runs on others hardware. The xbox is ms hardware and software, just like the zune. It's a entertainment market, just like the xbox, windows mobile software isn't in the entertainment market. There are far more direct comparisons between zune and xbox than between windows mobile and zune. As for peeing on their partners, what's new, I think we all know they don't play nice, instead they play to win.

[ezekielrage_99]

zune people don't seem to agree what it is bad. they just deny the true. here what they are ridiculous.

http://www.zunescene.com/forums/index.php?topic=3784.0

I have to admitt that was great to read, there are so many PC bashing thugs out there who know nothing about anything outside the realm of Microsoft bliss.

I like to think of myself as a fairly balanced PC and Apple person but the comments in that Zune site were just plain idiotic from the "Windows" people, their arguments wouldn't hold water.

The BIG Zune over iPod sales pitch I am hearing more and more is the "but Zune has a radio and wireless and it works with Windows".

Newsflash morons the iPod works with BOTH Windows and Mac OSX, a radio who really cares the reason I bought an iPod was so that I didn't have to listen to the stupid radio, and wireless I guess that would be nice..... wait you still need to plug the dam thing in the charge it.

Personally I am glad people aren't buying the Zune becuase it means that there aren't nearly as many brain dead people out there as I originally thought.

The reality of the effort with the Zune is that it is too little too late and a poor interpretation of an iPod...... Zune it's fugly

[tychay]

MS never made a smartphone, they make the windows mobile software that runs on others hardware. The xbox is ms hardware and software, just like the zune. It's a entertainment market, just like the xbox, windows mobile software isn't in the entertainment market. There are far more direct comparisons between zune and xbox than between windows mobile and zune. As for peeing on their partners, what's new, I think we all know they don't play nice, instead they play to win.

So. Microsoft’s mouse market share is so large that everyone is Logitech is peeing their pants? How about Microsoft’s total dominance of the Apple ][+ CPM card market?

Give me a break. Show me one area where Microsoft’s hardware has lead to a market share the size of iPod’s hold on MP3 players? I can’t think of a single one, can you?

But I can think of a lot of software plays: Windows, Office, Visual Studio, Project/Visio. I can think of some moderate successes: Windows CE in embedded space, Xbox 360. As well as a lot of failures: Tablet PC, Pocket PC, Windows Mobile, UPMC, Windows Media Center, Plays For Sure, Xbox.

See, unlike your narrow minded Microsoft fanboy-ism, I realize that the iPod dominance rests under three legs: iTunes, iTunes Music Store, and the iPod. Over the last five(!) years, Microsoft has used canon fodder to attack the latter two while it provided the first and the DRM for the second. Now the Zune is a direct attack, because two people at the top of Microsoft are jealous that after all these years QuickTime is still alive and well. They remember when they told Avi and Jobs to "knife the baby" and it’s really a thorn when they, the most profitable tech company in history, can’t back up that threat with action.

But until Microsoft wipes out Samsung and Creative, I think the burden of proof is on you. I pretty much destroyed your “Xbox is the shiznit” crap: it is, in no way, trending to dominate the market, and it won't even stop bleeding money until 2Q 2007. They’re just hoping Sony stumbles (which they are, but it looks like Nintendo is the primary recipient of Sony’s largess).

Do you think it is a coincidence that the partner that Microsoft tapped to launch the Zune (Toshiba) was the only major player with less that 2% of the market? And while we are on the topic. Why the hell is Microsoft introducing a hard drive player when the units that Apple is selling and having trouble stocking are flash-based?

[I made a tiny error. Xbox sold 1.6 million units its launch quarter. They sold .9 million units last quarter. I got those two quarters confused.]

[TheBobcat]

in five years neither the iPod nor the Zune will have any significance. The hardware market will be dominated by Samsung and distribution by walmart.

Samsung is becoming the most dominant consumer electronics company in the world: from LCD TVs to cell phones, to camcorders, to MP3 players. in 2006 they will have sold 150 million phones, growing much faster than Nokia and Motorola. Their camcorder business is just picking off with megapixel camcorders priced below $300. They are just now getting to be serious about the MP3 market. The YP-Z5 would have been one of the top players, had they decided to be agressive on pricing, however for some reason it's held very high selling prices throut the world. Now watch for the YP-T9, it will outsell iPod nano in 2007. It is ridiculously loaded with features and is much better priced than the Z5s.

Walmart controls 40% of DVD distribution. If the DVD goes the way of the music CD, they are not going to let this market slip away from them. They have just started selling digital downloads and have much more clout with content companies than either Microsoft or Apple.

Amazon.com rankings offer extremely limited view of the world. They are only USA, plus research shows that it is the preferred vendor for highly sophisticated users. The world is much bigger. Creative Zen Nano is #1 electronics seller at Amazon.fr and Amazon.de (France and Germany) you can check it out. Creative is not a powerhouse, though. Watch out for Samsung to start ramping up the YP-T9s next year and blow everyone out of the water. As it is now, they are on backorder and sold out at many outlets... Plus Samsung's music phones will far outsell the Iphone...


Which cost more, your device for predicting the future or your Samsung stock?

[OdduWon]

lol i expect a large number of zune related auto crashes.

it takes so long to get to where you want to go and to see what it is your picking you have tp serch for some visual heirachy that is not productive. ipod has this lower coeficecnt of visual digestion.

[sunwukong]

This thing has a serious bug infestation : :eek:
Zune Scene Tech Support : http://www.zunescene.com/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=e68f9fffa988200ca99f9040d747224f&board=15.0

[sjo]

People forget that MS has dominated pretty much every market they enter. Whether it be PDAs, PC desktops, Office software suites, internet browsers, and gaming (did I miss any other markets?).

Hmmmm, I'd say only the ones they haven't ended up dominating :rolleyes:

Like mobile phones, web servers, creativity software, games, game consoles, personal financial software, search, etc.

[archurban]

after two weeks, zune price is little bit down already. now it's not $249 anymore. you can get it $200 with $40 gift card at circuit city. it's started to get cheaper, and finally will go to dumping. :D

I don't care amazon selling rank because zune is already shown negative selling point.

I can't believe that MS still holds J. Allard as a big ruling leader. xbox is finally successful after 5 years (sort of). so until that time, MS lost tons of money. ironically it's not because of xbox itself but associated game developers who created cool battle games which had hit in the market. then it was triggered Live game which is not the first time by MS. Korean company already did.

Zune will be following the same way. but it will be more difficult than game. why? they must compete with Apple. unlikely other companies, Apple has totally different strategy, and very secured. the company leads industry standard all the time. little later, the rest of companies follow. when iTV will be sold next year, Xbox movie or TV shows service will get very big impact. I am sure.

[ezekielrage_99]

This thing has a serious bug infestation : :eek:
Zune Scene Tech Support : http://www.zunescene.com/forums/index.php?PHPSESSID=e68f9fffa988200ca99f9040d747224f&board=15.0

I'll still waiting for the official "it has rootkit" article......

Can't wait to see that :cool:

[spicyapple]

I can't believe that MS still holds J. Allard as a big ruling leader
There is a 40 minute podcast on Inside Home Recording that has J.Allard singing the praises of the Zune to a group of music/podcast/executive types at the 2006 Music Tech Summit. Great listening, and he explains the features of Zune media player, plus reasons for whoring with Universal Music.

podcast (http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=79061694&s=143455&i=12059569) < takes you to iTunes podcast page.

luv ya bunches! xoxoxo

[dornoforpyros]

you know, I'm trying to figure out why the Zune is so universally hated, and I can't.

I mean, yes it's Microsoft, but given the success of the xBox I would have thought some faith had been restored in them. I mean no one has even used the damn thing yet and their panning it as if it's the worse mp3 ever released. Yes, it's meant to go head to head with the iPod, and yes, it will probably fail, but why are we not giving credit where it's due?

The 3 days/3 plays thing is kinda bunk, but the wifi sharing in the first place is a pretty neat idea. How many of you use iTunes sharing at work or in the dorm? Wouldn't it be nice if your iPods could do the same?

And what's wrong with a larger screen that works in both landscape and portrait? I have a feeling that were the iPod to have gotten this functionality first everyone would be tripping over their credit cards to order one.

I dunno, just seems like everyone is getting overly excited on joining the "trash the zune" bandwagon that they aren't willing to give any credit where it's due.

[jeffu]

you know, I'm trying to figure out why the Zune is so universally hated, and I can't.

And what's wrong with a larger screen that works in both landscape and portrait? I have a feeling that were the iPod to have gotten this functionality first everyone would be tripping over their credit cards to order one.

I dunno, just seems like everyone is getting overly excited on joining the "trash the zune" bandwagon that they aren't willing to give any credit where it's due.

I agree completely - yes the Zune has some issues and yes it's a bit too big right now and yes I love my Ipod - but I do think the competition is a good thing - the graphics on the Zune are really sweet! Come on, Apple is the graphics champ and looking at the menus for iPod compared to Zune it's easy to see Apple could and should be doing more.

Also the screen - great idea to have it rotate .

Like I said - still love the ipod, but would like to see some of these the enhancements roll over to the apple side.

[gkarris]

you know, I'm trying to figure out why the Zune is so universally hated, and I can't.

I mean, yes it's Microsoft, but given the success of the xBox I would have thought some faith had been restored in them. I mean no one has even used the damn thing yet and their panning it as if it's the worse mp3 ever released. Yes, it's meant to go head to head with the iPod, and yes, it will probably fail, but why are we not giving credit where it's due?

The 3 days/3 plays thing is kinda bunk, but the wifi sharing in the first place is a pretty neat idea. How many of you use iTunes sharing at work or in the dorm? Wouldn't it be nice if your iPods could do the same?

And what's wrong with a larger screen that works in both landscape and portrait? I have a feeling that were the iPod to have gotten this functionality first everyone would be tripping over their credit cards to order one.

I dunno, just seems like everyone is getting overly excited on joining the "trash the zune" bandwagon that they aren't willing to give any credit where it's due.


I couldn't wait for Bungie's "Halo" (Bungie started out on Macs and made great games for them). But my fear was trying to update my PC and drivers again and again. Then, it was to come out for XBox! No more trying to get the hardware to work with the software, as it's designed for a game console. MS did great here with the XBox...

I looked at the Zune forum and the users are having problems putting vidoes into Zune. One user said this was the "easy" fix:


Posts: 27



Re: Video Folders?
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2006, 08:44:08 AM »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI...

http://www.tigotago.com/

you can use this program to change the Secondary class name:
Movies = A9B87FC9-BD47-4BF0-AC4F-655B89F7D868
TV Shows = BA7F258A-62F7-47A9-B21F-4651C42A000E
Music Videos = E3E689E2-BA8C-4330-96DF-A0EEEFFA6876
complete list off attributes are at: http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnwmt/html/WM_Metadata_Usage.asp

I successfully added Bubba Ho-Tep as a "Movie"..what a pain in the ass..they better change this crap and make categorizing videos easier

Logged

-----------------------------------

So, all you need to do for your video to work is change the "Metatag" on it to one of the above codes!!!! Couldn't be easier (on an MS platform...)!

[dmaxdmax]

I was in a Brookstone at a pretty upscale mall where the manager told me they were selling well - much better than their other MP3 players. Brookstone doesn't carry iPods so take it for what it's worth.

[vvv]

So. Microsoft’s mouse market share is so large that everyone is Logitech is peeing their pants? How about Microsoft’s total dominance of the Apple ][+ CPM card market?

Give me a break. Show me one area where Microsoft’s hardware has lead to a market share the size of iPod’s hold on MP3 players? I can’t think of a single one, can you?

They have been in the console biz for 1.2 generations, and their second generation console, a "moderate success", is looking like it will "win" this generation of console wars, I know I'm not alone in thinking that.

But I can think of a lot of software plays: Windows, Office, Visual Studio, Project/Visio. I can think of some moderate successes: Windows CE in embedded space, Xbox 360. As well as a lot of failures: Tablet PC, Pocket PC, Windows Mobile, UPMC, Windows Media Center, Plays For Sure, Xbox.

Their software sales are driven by getting in on the ground floor, windows for example, Office, and then trying to destroy all other comers (through various, often unscrupulous means), where as in the hardware market they play catch up, xbox, etc. I think we can all agree it's much easier to get in on the ground floor, than when everyone else is on floor 13.

I don't think MS is as worried about their mice as they are multimedia products, the xbox and the new zune brand are much more important than that, making the MS brand "nicer" more friendly etc. As more and more people want a computer in their living room, MS wants to be there to give it to them. Their mice are fairly well respected the last time I checked anyways.

See, unlike your narrow minded Microsoft fanboy-ism, I realize that the iPod dominance rests under three legs: iTunes, iTunes Music Store, and the iPod. Over the last five(!) years, Microsoft has used canon fodder to attack the latter two while it provided the first and the DRM for the second. Now the Zune is a direct attack, because two people at the top of Microsoft are jealous that after all these years QuickTime is still alive and well. They remember when they told Avi and Jobs to "knife the baby" and it’s really a thorn when they, the most profitable tech company in history, can’t back up that threat with action.

Fanboyism, well when the debate is lost, the loser resorts to slander, I believe socrates said that. Anyways, I'm not a ms fanboy, but I realise that they have tons of money to burn, and that is not going to change any time soon. They own a good portion of apple if I'm not wrong.... They have no reason to not want apple to succeed, nor do I, competition breeds excellence, as I said, if apple is affraid of competition, then it's time for some.


But until Microsoft wipes out Samsung and Creative, I think the burden of proof is on you. I pretty much destroyed your “Xbox is the shiznit” crap: it is, in no way, trending to dominate the market, and it won't even stop bleeding money until 2Q 2007. They’re just hoping Sony stumbles (which they are, but it looks like Nintendo is the primary recipient of Sony’s largess).

How did you destroy the xbox crap? They entered the market, and now with a second generation product are looking like they will have the most market share of all of the next gen consoles, going against a 3rd and 6-7th generation products. It sold more ps3's or wii's on their opening weekend. I own a wii btw, and probably will own a ps3 in a bit. Xbox 360 has sold about 8 million, so far, I believe. It's pretty much agreed upon that they will own the N.A. console market, it's the other markets which are in contention.

As for hoping Sony stumbles... Uh, the reason that sony looks like they are stumbling is because the ps3's online capability is being compared to XBL, that their console is being compared to the xbox, the fact that the ps3 can't output 1080i, wtf is that, and hey that may not be firmware fixable, they retracted that statement, etc etc etc. Go read any review of the PS3, they will mention things that are in direct comparison to the xbox. MS got it right this time, sony didn't. The only thing that is saving sony is their playstation brand name. Again, I'll own a ps3, but not for a while. I was REALLY excited about the ps3, and was a huge ps2 fan, but sony is pissing me off, and many, many other gamers as well. 600 dollars, comon, we all know that is crap, they loaded it with blueray and want us to pay for the pleasure of them shoving their format down our throats, perhaps we would like to play games, not watch your movies sony.

Do you think it is a coincidence that the partner that Microsoft tapped to launch the Zune (Toshiba) was the only major player with less that 2% of the market? And while we are on the topic. Why the hell is Microsoft introducing a hard drive player when the units that Apple is selling and having trouble stocking are flash-based?

Why did ms do that stuff, why are you asking me, I don't know. But maybe just maybe they don't care what apple is doing? Seems plausible to me, they got in on the console market by doing it completely different. Which I know, the 360 is a moderate success, sure, in japan sure.


[I made a tiny error. Xbox sold 1.6 million units its launch quarter. They sold .9 million units last quarter. I got those two quarters confused.]

ps3 has 250K units world wide so far, and most of those are on ebay. lol

[iMeowbot]

I was in a Brookstone at a pretty upscale mall where the manager told me they were selling well - much better than their other MP3 players. Brookstone doesn't carry iPods so take it for what it's worth.
Is what they show here (http://www.brookstone.com/store/thumbnail.asp?sid=194&wid=2&cid=67&search_type=subcategory&cm_re=C*MP3*MP3%20Players) the whole selection they have in their stores? If so, it wouldn't be too surprising that the Zune did better there.

[stcanard]

The 3 days/3 plays thing is kinda bunk, but the wifi sharing in the first place is a pretty neat idea. How many of you use iTunes sharing at work or in the dorm? Wouldn't it be nice if your iPods could do the same?

As far as what's wrong with the wifi as currently done, here:

http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardware/zune.ars/4

Actually that entire review is pretty good at covering why the current Zune is really not worth it, and why it has potential.

My personal opinion is that they will never hit that potential -- Microsoft in the post Gates incarnation has shown a complete inability to focus, and to "get" the current trends. Realistically all their big successes were pre-Ballmer, and even the XBOX owes more to Halo than it does to any brilliant positioning on the part of MS.

But as far as all out Microsoft bashing, what would one expect on a forum dedicated to Apple?

[Belly-laughs]

Don´t know if it´s been posted earlier, but apparently Zune sales in it´s first week were pretty good…

http://www.thestreet.com/_googlen/newsanalysis/techgames/10324945.html?cm_ven=GOOGLEN&cm_cat=FREE&cm_ite=NA

[macmax77]

I know that it's not quite fair to compare the two right out of the launch (a baby product versus a mature one), but MS didn't help themselves by setting up this product to compete directly with the iPod. If they had tried to target a different market (maybe primarily video as opposed to music), they might have more success, and let the hype build from there. But the way they seem to be playing it now, they're going to just throw a lot of money into something that will be in Apple's shadow. It'll offer a compelling alternative to some, but will not necessarily convince too many to become switchers. :p

Sometimes new things are the Hip thing to buy, but to get a Zune you need 2 things:

1-Bad Taste
2-Bad Taste

[macmax77]

Perhaps Microsoft should have a "switch" campaign like Apple for the Zune. Showing all the wonderful things like radio and squirting music and photos.


Wonderful equals bad taste?

[Doctor Q]

As far as what's wrong with the wifi as currently done, here:

http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardware/zune.ars/4

Actually that entire review is pretty good at covering why the current Zune is really not worth it, and why it has potential. The review complainsThe lameness of this dialogue is matched only by the lameness of Microsoft's decision not to allow retransmission. It's clear why usage rights on protected content need to expire, but why should that prevent users from sharing it with their friends? This is supposed to be viral how, exactly?If they allowed retransmissions, couldn't a pair of Zunes beam it back and forth to prevent ever reaching expiration? If they allowed retransmissions of purchased songs, how might they prevent this trick from being used to keep songs forever? Keeping a record of all previous songs, so it could recognize one it had before, and not permitting those records to be purged? Counting a retransmission as one of your three "plays"? Keeping the original expiration date, even if 2 of the 3 days had already gone by?

Another way to ask this question: If Apple decided to compete head-to-head with this feature, what should they do differently?

[Ubuntu]

In fact - that comparison is a little early. Make the same one in 5 years.

I am wondering how the comparison for the XBox vs. Playstation vs. others looked like some days after the initial start.

My thoughts exactly.

I'm all for the iPod, I'm happy with my 8GB red nano, but come on people, give the Zune a chance. Many of you are being petty, and I think that this is a stupid comparison.

There is only one Zune model anyway, are they comparing it to the countless models of the iPod?

Is that fair?

Are iPod Shuffles included? Is that fair, considering the price?

I can't access the link for some reason.

[ezekielrage_99]

My thoughts exactly.

I'm all for the iPod, I'm happy with my 8GB red nano, but come on people, give the Zune a chance. Many of you are being petty, and I think that this is a stupid comparison.

There is only one Zune model anyway, are they comparing it to the countless models of the iPod?

Is that fair?

Are iPod Shuffles included? Is that fair, considering the price?

I can't access the link for some reason.

I respect the line about giving Zune a chance and then comparing it's success to Zune however I really don't think Zune has what it takes to come close to the iPod. The reality is the Zune looks like a 3 year old music player and it's only real selling points are the bigger screen, radio and wireless which aren't that big of a deal in the first place.

Zune is also getting in an already established and saturated digital music market with an inferior product and system for users, will it succeed? Only time will tell but there will be buyers for the Zune.

Should the Zune should get a fair comparison but the reality of business is there's nothing fair about it, Microsoft has prooven the unfair factor with Netscape, anti-Trust and Sony Rootkit time and time again.

If Zune was release 3 years ago then I would say it would outsell the iPod but the fact remains with nothing that outshines the iPod, subscription and limited file formats and playback it wont compete with the iPod or other players like the Samsung or Sandisk.

Zune is too little too late for Microsoft and really doesn't have the "wow" factor that ever I would expect for a company like Microsoft. I really do think the hot selling iPod this Xmas (or international present giving day as I like to call it) is the new Shuffle it seems everyone wants it, I have seen it sold out at quite a few stores already.

[hulugu]

Why are we still talking about the Zune. Does anyone really care? It's just another mp3 player among so many others behind iPod. :rolleyes:

It will never match the iPod's popularity, ever.

I think the feeling was, this is the last full measure for anyone expecting to knock the iPod off its pedestal without a serious sea-change in technology, to mix my metaphors a little.

Sony tried, Dell tried, Creative is trying, and really only Samsung and SanDisk are having any success. The real threat it appeared was from Microsoft who could use their money and leverage the support of WMA, the XBox, and other technologies to support the Zune.

Instead, Microsoft made a clunky box, reinvented the software wheel, and severed the Zune from all the PlaysForSure companies. The only real leverage the Zune has is it's connection with the XBox, which the iPod can do as well. The Zune is a massive duplication of effort, and will surely do more to eliminate the smaller players in the market, such as SanDisk, than affect the iPod's sales.

Furthermore, I would ask anyone to avoid buying the Zune, no one should reward Microsoft for releasing a product that is effectively unfinished. Really for $250.00 you get to do their beta testing, and that's not a privilege anyone should have to endure.

[macmax77]

They own a good portion of apple if I'm not wrong....
lol

You are not only wrong but TOO wrong.
This is an urban myth.
I will come back here in January when i will be home in my other computer where i have the explanation for this and then i will answer again and get you out of your error.
well , maybe i will write my sister to see if she can email that to me, but again, you are way wrong

[hulugu]

My thoughts exactly.

I'm all for the iPod, I'm happy with my 8GB red nano, but come on people, give the Zune a chance. Many of you are being petty, and I think that this is a stupid comparison.

There is only one Zune model anyway, are they comparing it to the countless models of the iPod?

Is that fair?

Are iPod Shuffles included? Is that fair, considering the price?

I can't access the link for some reason.

First, the Zune reviews have been nearly universally bad, so I think the Zune got a chance and failed.

Secondly, the Zune is number six on Amazon's Bestseller list when compared to hard-drive based players, following three models of the iPod and the Creative Zen Vision. However, the Zune is 17 when compared to all Mp3-players. What does this tell us? Is the Zune a good product, or has the Mp3-player market abandoned the hard-drive based market for flash?

Should other iPods been included, yes and here's why, the Zune has to compete with all the iPods, because it uses a different DRM-scheme and thus is in competition with the entire iPod market. That's the Zune's real problem, it's competing with the whole ecosystem now.

[MacQuest]

He has a point about the XBox... It did start out slower but now is surely considered a predominant player in the market (no pun intended;) ).

Yeah, out of all 3 major options. [Sony, Nintendo, and miCrapsoft] :rolleyes:

Real hard. :p

I bet even I could have whipped up a console one night a few years back and kicked them out of the top 3. ;)

I remember reading sales figures in '04 between PS3 and XSUX. It was something like 74+ million PS3's to 13.x million XSUX's.:D

As has been mentioned several times throughout this thread, there are WAY more manufacturers AND models to contend with in the digital audio player market.

[SactoGuy18]

Folks,

The reason why the Zune sells poorly comes down to these factors:

1) The software to interface with the Zune leaves much to be desired in terms of ease of use. Every reviewer expresses concern about the unneccessary complications of the Zune software copying media files to the player.

2) Microsoft blew it by going to a new digital rights management system, one totally different than the DRM system used in conjunction with Windows Media Player 10/11 with its Play for Sure initiative.

Technically, while the Zune is larger than it needs to be, most reviewers do laud the interface on the player itself. I think once Microsoft improves the interface software for the Zune acceptance of the device will climb dramatically. After all, when Apple started selling iPods for Windows users it didn't become really popular until the iPod switched to the USB 2.0 connection and iTunes became available in a Windows version.

[princealfie]

Wonderful equals bad taste?

Isn't our country about the right to have bad taste?

[Nym]

Microsoft owns nothing of Apple, just to make that clear, and of course they don't Apple to succeed... they want it to sink. :)

The fact that M$ owns a portion of Apple is a myth, not true.

[stcanard]

Another way to ask this question: If Apple decided to compete head-to-head with this feature, what should they do differently?

Here's the funny thing, I can tell you a feature is poorly thought out, even if I can't necessarily tell you how to solve it :) The fact that we don't have an answer is probably a good start on why the iPod doesn't already do it.

First thing I can say is this: Dump the idea of restrictions on non-DRM'd songs. If "the guy with guitar" wants to beam you his own song he should be allowed to decide that you can keep it as long as you want and send it to as many people as you want.

This goes back to the root of the problem with these devices and online stores: The record labels aren't worried about piracy, they're worried about all the guys on the street being able to bypass them by advertising virally then selling their own burned CDs. Sure it's only one or two now people now, but then it starts to grow, and some band ends up hitting it big and getting radio play, then everybody starts doing it, and then gradually the RIAA loses their money train.

[princealfie]

Here's the funny thing, I can tell you a feature is poorly thought out, even if I can't necessarily tell you how to solve it :) The fact that we don't have an answer is probably a good start on why the iPod doesn't already do it.

First thing I can say is this: Dump the idea of restrictions on non-DRM'd songs. If "the guy with guitar" wants to beam you his own song he should be allowed to decide that you can keep it as long as you want and send it to as many people as you want.

This goes back to the root of the problem with these devices and online stores: The record labels aren't worried about piracy, they're worried about all the guys on the street being able to bypass them by advertising virally then selling their own burned CDs. Sure it's only one or two now people now, but then it starts to grow, and some band ends up hitting it big and getting radio play, then everybody starts doing it, and then gradually the RIAA loses their money train.

Hurrah, the RIAA loses again :D

[stcanard]

Microsoft owns nothing of Apple, just to make that clear, and of course they don't Apple to succeed... they want it to sink. :)

The fact that M$ owns a portion of Apple is a myth, not true.

There was a time that MS held some Apple stock, that's where it started (I think it was with the second coming of Jobs). They got rid of it some time ago, but that part wasn't as highly advertised.

But MS doesn't want Apple to sink -- they want Apple to remain as a niche player, so they maintain a defence against monopoly claims

[Nym]

No way, M$ doesn't like Apple for what it is, for their history, if Apple would sink there would always be competition, and monopoly... 90% of the world's computers running Windoze? what's that? :D

[Hugh]

I'm not trying to bash the Zune, but I don't think Microsoft is going to be able to hurt Apple's Market share, it's too late in the market. With Apple having 75% of the market share of the MP3 music players with no sign of it droping.

I think if these rumors of the video iPod are true, it will blow the Zune out of the water when it comes to the Zune's landscape mode. The thing that bothers me about MS and the Zune, is the deal MS made with Universal. I think that was ment to hurt iPod sales makeing Universal asking for the same deal from Apple.

I do have to ask though, is how are the Zune buyers dealing with all the bugs that it has? (Did the first iPods have bugs like the Zune?) I read some of the messages and made it sounds like MS rushed the Zune out the door and didn't do any quality control on the software/hardware. How can people buy something like that. Just read some of those messages as they state that they took the unit back for a replacement.

As for MS owning part of Apple, is toally false. Back when Steve Jobs came back to Apple, he made a deal with MS where MS would buy number (I can't remember how many) NON VOTING shares for some number of years. MS has already sold off it's shares, why people think MS still has this shares is beyond me. Basicly the deal was so they would stop suing each other over each others tech. (Why OS 9 had some ideas from Windows and why Windows had some ideas from the Mac OS from that time). It was also to get MS to continue making Office for the Mac. The deal also included that Apple put IE on every Mac they sold (I could be wrong on that, correct me if I am.).


Hugh

[cwerdna]

According to http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-6140649.html "SanDisk tied Apple Computer, with 39 percent of all MP3 players sold for the week, but the similarities end there. iPods led all manufacturers with 66 percent of dollars spent in the category, while SanDisk had 18 percent...

Those figures do not include iPods sold directly from Apple, which does not release sales figures from Apple.com or Apple stores...

Microsoft's much-ballyhooed MP3 player, the Zune, captured 2.1 percent of units sold, tying with Disney and coming in behind Apple, SanDisk, Creative and Memorex."

[charkshark]

The Zune is a disgraceful joke from M$.....who cares, get over it.

[cwerdna]

It was also to get MS to continue making Office for the Mac. The deal also included that Apple put IE on every Mac they sold (I could be wrong on that, correct me if I am.).
You can rewatch the announcement of that at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxOp5mBY9IY.

[princealfie]

The Zune is a disgraceful joke from M$.....who cares, get over it.

I got over but it's still here.

[OdduWon]

zune is so crappy that they have to put cardboard models out so people don't get frustrated and smash the huge brown booger on the floor. went to target the other day and they don't even have a working model. how am i supposed to see if i like the new gigabeat... i mean zune if i cant play with it? plus what the eff is with the menu button??? On my ipod i can get to my geners without even looking. Just push menu like 5 times and then one click and a quater scroll. one more click and scroll to the bottom. then bam reggae:cool: with the zune if you push the menu...or back..or what ever the hell it is called, when your in the main menu it goes back to the last thing you were doing. i got stuck in a fm/main screen loop which made me laugh at first but the i just got fed up and walked away. how the hell is someone supposed to drive and listen to this thing? I like the "ooooohh, shinnnny" feel of the os but it's lack of organization and usefullness quickly subvert this inital feeling.
lol if i had one i would have this as my screen saver http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r75/odduwon/Picture5.png PC: " ooooow it's sooo blue." :D
it's funny how much using a zune is like the design of the logo. so comlicated just to make a little square man with a cheezy graident paint job pat his head and rub his belly. ;) http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r75/odduwon/zunelogo1.jpg:

[mac17]

guys i think you're being too hard on zune. play with one. it's not THAT bad. it's ugly, but the interface isn't bad at all. I don't plan on buying a zune (my ipod is fine and i'm waiting on a video pod), but it's good to have it in the marketplace for competition sake. maybe apple will actually pay attention to some of the features like the built in radio tuner which is a nobrainer...

actually it is THAT bad i played with one in a local staples and i pressed the back/menu button like 3 times in a row suddenly the thing crashes on me it kept on blinking on and off 5 or 6 times me and my freind walked away laughing after catching it on video on my phone:D :D

[dylan6950204]

i personaly would go wiht the ipod becuse it is made by apple witch always makes it that much better

[dylan6950204]

can some body put as link to like a pic of a zoone

[SheriffParker]

can some body put as link to like a pic of a zoone

http://images.google.com/

[Canerican]

Everything that Mac makes sells like hotcakes... MS should stick to their defective OS if they want to make their stakeholders happy.

[Flowbee]

i personaly would go wiht the ipod becuse it is made by apple witch...

Apple witch?

[Quboid]

I really couldn't care less about the sales.

Think about it, if the iPhone doesn't sell, would that put in doubt the fact that it is the best thing out?

[SMM]

I really couldn't care less about the sales.

Think about it, if the iPhone doesn't sell, would that put in doubt the fact that it is the best thing out?

Was there a point here I missed?