cs majors?

[jefhatfield]

anyone studying computer engineering, telecommunications management, computer science (programming), networking, or a related topic in tech school or college?



i went to microsoft tech school and studied networking and i am putting together previous graduate school classes and some undergrad classes to finish a master's either in telecommucations management or networking security

though i am on the hardware side of the industry, i am still trying to gain some skills in programming this semester and digital art (hopefully) next semester

[lmalave]

I studied Electrical Engineering, but it was in the same department as Computer Science, and really a lot of the classes I took would be considered "computer engineering" at most tech schools. I was glad to be a EE major, though - I love math and physics.

[kylos]

Currently a Cs Major.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by lmalave
I studied Electrical Engineering, but it was in the same department as Computer Science, and really a lot of the classes I took would be considered "computer engineering" at most tech schools. I was glad to be a EE major, though - I love math and physics.

the ee and el's are the most common major found in the hardware sector in silicon valley...i am yet to meet a computer engineering major in the region...when it comes to brass tacks, the companies really want the more math and physics trained traditional workers like the old line engineers (ee, el, mechanical engineers, etc) instead of a computer related engineer

the programmers are usually self taught lifelong programmers though since school cannot adequately teach a person enough to be useable in the real world...many people who also took liberal arts degrees in school and cannot find a job in their field also are programmers since it was their hobby when they were in school (and before) and loving the art of coding is the necessary skill to make one able to do it five days or six days a week

there will always be work in the technical fields since the real training to be on the hardware sector is too hard for most and the training in the software sector cannot be learned in a classroom due to the amazing hours it takes to get up to speed in the major computer languages

since a large section of the tech world moved to silicon valley during the dot.com boom, there are currently too many over qualified workers...but that will change when the work picks up which will take several years...and when the non tech world gains confidence in the tech field and tech stocks

politically, wrong section i know, i don't think the current administration is too hip with high tech and i don't know if it's the people in the administration or the party in general:(

[lmalave]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
since a large section of the tech world moved to silicon valley during the dot.com boom, there are currently too many over qualified workers...but that will change when the work picks up which will take several years...and when the non tech world gains confidence in the tech field and tech stocks
Hmmm...there's other factors besides just the recession, though. Both computer programming and engineering are being outsourced to firms in India and China. They have a huge surplus of engineers with Masters and PhDs. I for one am not very optimistic. That's why I'm getting my MBA - I figure even when everything is outsourced, you'll still need a manager/coordinator. It'll be sad to pull away from day-to-day tech tasks, but I can always pursue those as a side hobby I guess...

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by lmalave
Hmmm...there's other factors besides just the recession, though. Both computer programming and engineering are being outsourced to firms in India and China. They have a huge surplus of engineers with Masters and PhDs. I for one am not very optimistic. That's why I'm getting my MBA - I figure even when everything is outsourced, you'll still need a manager/coordinator. It'll be sad to pull away from day-to-day tech tasks, but I can always pursue those as a side hobby I guess...

i went the other direction...i was in mba school when the tech boom hit in the 90s and i ran to the valley to make my claim...but this wasn't the second gold rush like many thought, but an illusion

my programmer friend/professor from stanford told me that the talent he sees today from india and china is far superior to the american computer talent he sees there or at MIT his other alma mater...mainly because of focus...he mentioned we have tv, computer games, and many outlets...over there, the poverty will make a programmer either have to write his own code for a game or just code for the fun of it...imagine that, every time you boot up, you code since that's all you can afford to do :)

i am reading a book on the history of mathematics and the great minds of the past...it is not that they had better brains, but that the great thinkers of antiquity had fewer distractions and amazing patience

today's individual mind is not set up in this fast paced world to produce many renaisance thinkers...imagine a single smart person today who could make great long lasting contributions to math, physics, art, literature, and political science...the way of life today does not make a great climate to make one stretch their mind that far

instead, we use the great pool of specialized thinkers and vast past knowledge and technology to push our society forward...no one person today could make math progress 700 years in just a few years like archimedes did...when the europeans of the dark ages lost much of the greek knowledge, it took an estimated 700 years and many mathematicians to relearn what archimedes developed in just his life to the field

if an archimedes or plato existed today, they would have to almost live in a bubble and be totally unaffected by the world and it's many distractions

i had a roomate in college who attempted to be a 20th century renaissance person studying physics, english lit, and being the head of the campus green party group...besides these subjects, she studies everything else on her own...and even though she is the smartest person i have ever known, she lacked common sense

for fun, she attended orgies and was involved in some northern california style hippie mass relationship with fellow students and a professor or two...and this caused for a lot of jealousies and tensions...it wasn't a love triangle, but a many faceted thing

:p

[Pismo]

I'm a CS major and minoring in business. It sucks that that CS department at my college is all wintel

[jefhatfield]

imalave,

man did i get way off topic there...mathematicians and orgies

if you are a good mba or good engineer, eventually you will find work

try being a good lead guitarist or a good sculpturer...now that is a challenge to find a related job and some of these people cannot imagine doing anything else

in my late teens through late 20s, i was a guitarist and songwriter and i couldn't imagine doing anything else...it was get signed or bust and i was chasing a 1 in a 1000 thing...by age 30 i gave up stardom chasing, finished college, and entered the dull working world where it is safer

at least an engineer will have much better odds than a rock musician, even in silicon valley post dot.com;)

[ibookin']

CS major, Philosophy minor. Like Pismo, my CS department is almost entirely wintel. They have a few Sun machines and Macs in the labs, but in the classrooms everything is Wintel. I usually just use my iBook, but I am doing assembly language programming (for x86 CPUs, fo course), so I cannot use my Mac for this without emulation.

EDIT: My hope is that Cisco Certified techs will be needed here in the U.S. and I'll be able to get a job after or during grad school. I'm currently working on a CCNA cert and will be going for a CCNP eventually.

[Datazoid]

Aye! Going for a double major actually CS/English with a Psych minor (probably not going to happen, but its ok to set your goals high, right?) BTW, our [CS] labs are all Gateway (with a few old SGIs) Linux machines.

[pepeleuepe]

I'm currently a EE major with a minor in Music Recording. Hoping to get into the music technology field. Maybe by the time I get out of school Apple will be designing music recording hardware :) . Anyway, I have to take a couple CS courses, which so far I have enjoyed more than some of my EE courses. Thinking about doing a CS minor, but I'm already going to be here for 5 years, figure I shouldn't add another minor.

[evildead]

I am currently a CS major and am finnishing very soon. I also am curretnly working in industry and have been for about 2 years.

[Pismo]

I like to call the labs at my school "Dell Hell"

[lmalave]

Originally posted by ibookin'@mwny
CS major, Philosophy minor.

Dude, you're, like, a freakin' Vulcan! You can outlogic anybody ;)

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by ibookin'@mwny
CS major, Philosophy minor. Like Pismo, my CS department is almost entirely wintel. They have a few Sun machines and Macs in the labs, but in the classrooms everything is Wintel. I usually just use my iBook, but I am doing assembly language programming (for x86 CPUs, fo course), so I cannot use my Mac for this without emulation.

EDIT: My hope is that Cisco Certified techs will be needed here in the U.S. and I'll be able to get a job after or during grad school. I'm currently working on a CCNA cert and will be going for a CCNP eventually.

i am a microsoft certified professional and i have thought about the cisco certified network professional program at the nearby school in santa cruz

the instructors say that in another three years, things will pick up for cisco techs since all indicators show that the dot.com situation pendulumn will swing back into a moderate place...right now, dot.coms are slow and artificially undervalued so simple economics point to an upping of stock value and of jobs for cisco techs

during the height of dot.com in california, companies were hiring ccna techs right out of school for 60 to 80 grand, no experience

routers and switches, while not used too much in the lan environment, are indispesible in an e-commerce environment where wan and cisco's dominance in wan technologies are the rule

our ccnp and ccna professors have tried to tell the younger techie students that while cisco jobs are rare now, when things pick up for dot.com, it will be the right place to to

it's like when i went to college in the 80s there were too many teachers so no one majored in k-12 teaching...then ten years later there was this huge shortage and no one there to fill the positions and teachers in california in some districts were getting paid really well, comparatively

since you are an undergrad and considering grad school and ccna and ccnp, by the time you finish the two degrees and two certs, cisco will be very hot again (in california) and dot.com will be smarter and wiser as well as richer again

you are in the right place at the right time to be into wide area networks, and especially e-commerce

funny how cyclical things work for you sometimes:D

[jefhatfield]

sorry to post again, but i read either in businessweek or pc magazine, that 11 of 12 cisco related jobs are tied into the dot.com boom

so when dot.com comes back, as it will since it's too good of an idea just to die, you will have several job offers and maybe can even start your own lucrative business

my microsoft teacher's brother, a cisco certified internetworking expert, which all cisco resale reps have to be, made two million dollars in the last full year of dot.com selling routers to local silicon valley dot.coms...that was his commission!

[janey]

i can't believe myself...mods can you please delete my post?

[evildead]

Originally posted by ibookin'@mwny
CS major, Philosophy minor. Like Pismo, my CS department is almost entirely wintel. They have a few Sun machines and Macs in the labs, but in the classrooms everything is Wintel. I usually just use my iBook, but I am doing assembly language programming (for x86 CPUs, fo course), so I cannot use my Mac for this without emulation.

EDIT: My hope is that Cisco Certified techs will be needed here in the U.S. and I'll be able to get a job after or during grad school. I'm currently working on a CCNA cert and will be going for a CCNP eventually.


Im a double Major, CS and Psychology. Im working on my CCNA right now as well. Im in Semester 2 of 4. There are jobs here for Network Admins and the CCNA should help you. I currently work in industry as an Enterpise Network/System Admin for a large Aro-space company. I have yet to finnish shcool (should be done soon) and I am all ready working.


My University is mostly Windows as well but we do have a Mac Lab and a Sun Lab. The Mac lab is pretty impressive and new (Quick Silvers and LCDs). The Sun Lab is older (Ultra 5's and a E250 for a server which is only a few yers old.)

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by evildead
Im a double Major, CS and Psychology. Im working on my CCNA right now as well. Im in Semester 2 of 4. There are jobs here for Network Admins and the CCNA should help you.

the ccna is not a bad certification as i have also finished two semesters in the cisco academy

but the better certification to have as a network techie or network engineer is the microsoft certified professional, or the mcsa, or the mcse

the cisco certification helps most when combined with a microsoft network certification or a technical degree in engineering or computer science

alone, the cisco certification, the novell certification, and some others will not impress a human resources officer for a high tech firm

get that degree first, or get that microsoft network certification first...or at the very least, get the compTIA network+ or server+ entry level network technician certifications first...before getting anything cisco

then you can think about a ccna

unless you work with routers and switches most of the time, the likely skills an employer will want is lan technology of all types, microsoft based wan technology, server, workstation, and stand alone pc skills

i have been a tech for four years and before that i was, at one time, an hr officer for a technically related government organization

sometimes i do meet young techies starting in the field, with no experience, who want to play a one-upsmanship game and enter the certification field with the most coveted (but rarely required) ccie certification and circumvent the easier and more common certifications...network+, server+, mcp, mcse, cna, cne, ccna, or ccnp (or ccda, ccdp, cissp)

while the ccna is earned before the ccnp and the ccda is earned before the ccdp, the ccie was originally the certification for a full fledged cisco salesperson and still does not require any prior training or certifications from anywhere

in the real world, a ccie is likely to have more than one certification first, and not just only in cisco technologies, either

as much as i don't want to tell you this, if you want to be in the high tech field and be hireable by a wide variety of firms and clients, you better bone up on your microsoft skills and or certifications

;)

[jefhatfield]

mcp - microsoft certified professional - pass 1 closed book, computerized test
mcsa - microsoft certified systems administrator - 4 tests
mcse - microsoft certified systems engineer - 7 tests

cna - certified novell associate - 1 test
cne - certified novell engineer - 7 tests

ccna - cisco certified network associate - 1 test
ccda - cisco certified design associate - 1 test
ccnp - cisco certified network professional - 4 tests
ccdp - cisco certified design professional - ?
ccie - cisco certified internetworking expert - 1 very hard test, hands-on, with 60 % fail rate!

ps - sorry for all the acronyms in the previous post, but this covers the letters that i just blurted out without typing out the full names;)

[evildead]

Im only taking the CCNA for fun... its not a requirment of my job or my education. .... and Im doing just fine with out any MS certfifications :)

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by evildead
. .... and Im doing just fine with out any MS certfifications :)

it would be great if the world can do fine without...microsoft;)

[Stelliform]

I have a BS in CS. :D

When I graduated someone asked me what I was going to do. I said that I was going to expand my list of clients and grow out a computer consulting buisness. He said, "You aren't even going to use your degree?" I kinda thought I would be using it daily...... Not just to get a job.... :)

(And for the last 3 years I use my degree at least daily... If not more often. :D)

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Stelliform
I have a BS in CS. :D

When I graduated someone asked me what I was going to do. I said that I was going to expand my list of clients and grow out a computer consulting buisness. He said, "You aren't even going to use your degree?" I kinda thought I would be using it daily...... Not just to get a job.... :)

(And for the last 3 years I use my degree at least daily... If not more often. :D)

my computer business of several years is based on computer hardware, mostly pcs and working out windows problems

the colleges around my area specialize in AS thru PhD degrees programming mostly, AS in networking on the sever side, work with routers via a CCNA certification, or computer graphic design on an AS thru MS level...but strangely enough, very little on windows troubleshooting stuff or hardware

the closest school that addresses computer hardware is 70 miles away and those are the ee/el degrees and there is a master's degree in windows troubleshooting in a school a couple of hours away:mad:

so there is nothing i could study here that would help me on a daily basis...i am taking java right now and i can't imagine how that will ever help me fix computer hardware;)

mostly whether i decide to put my units towards a master's in IT management or IT security will really have very little to do with my business, especially if i open a storefront downtown

i would like the see the college and university system build graduate and undergraduate degrees around the basic concepts of the A+ certification...but drawn out in detail more, of course...for us hardware techies

[ibookin']

Originally posted by jefhatfield
the ccna is not a bad certification as i have also finished two semesters in the cisco academy

but the better certification to have as a network techie or network engineer is the microsoft certified professional, or the mcsa, or the mcse

the cisco certification helps most when combined with a microsoft network certification or a technical degree in engineering or computer science

alone, the cisco certification, the novell certification, and some others will not impress a human resources officer for a high tech firm

get that degree first, or get that microsoft network certification first...or at the very least, get the compTIA network+ or server+ entry level network technician certifications first...before getting anything cisco

then you can think about a ccna

unless you work with routers and switches most of the time, the likely skills an employer will want is lan technology of all types, microsoft based wan technology, server, workstation, and stand alone pc skills

i have been a tech for four years and before that i was, at one time, an hr officer for a technically related government organization

sometimes i do meet young techies starting in the field, with no experience, who want to play a one-upsmanship game and enter the certification field with the most coveted (but rarely required) ccie certification and circumvent the easier and more common certifications...network+, server+, mcp, mcse, cna, cne, ccna, or ccnp (or ccda, ccdp, cissp)

while the ccna is earned before the ccnp and the ccda is earned before the ccdp, the ccie was originally the certification for a full fledged cisco salesperson and still does not require any prior training or certifications from anywhere

in the real world, a ccie is likely to have more than one certification first, and not just only in cisco technologies, either

as much as i don't want to tell you this, if you want to be in the high tech field and be hireable by a wide variety of firms and clients, you better bone up on your microsoft skills and or certifications

;)

I have considered getting MS certifications and A+ as well, seeing as how many of the job listings I've seen on sites such as http://www.tcpmag.com require MCSE and A+ as well as Cisco.

My question is how hard is it to get the MCSE cert. I have a friend who got his A+ and he says that the test was fairly simple, but I'm not sure about the Microsoft. Jef, do you have any knowledge or advice in this matter? Could I pass the MCSE without taking a class?

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by ibookin'@mwny
I have considered getting MS certifications and A+ as well, seeing as how many of the job listings I've seen on sites such as http://www.tcpmag.com require MCSE and A+ as well as Cisco.

My question is how hard is it to get the MCSE cert. I have a friend who got his A+ and he says that the test was fairly simple, but I'm not sure about the Microsoft. Jef, do you have any knowledge or advice in this matter? Could I pass the MCSE without taking a class?

1) i took a class and passed my mcp and i could have passed it without a class...i have a friend who passed all his mcse tests through self study

basically, after getting to know the material through sybex, new riders, or exam cram books, the transcender practice tests and the certify.com practice tests will absolutely get you ready to pass the test or tests


2) the most common certifications in the IT industry are the microsoft mcp and mcse, and then the compTIA A+ certification

the first microsoft test you take which gives you the mcp designation, requires just passing at least one test, but if you pass two or three tests, you are still an mcp, but in three different areas...this is moderately hard

if you take the right four tests, you can get your mcsa...but that is assuming you want to be on the server side of the industry

if you want to dig a little deeper, you can take those four tests, and the correct three others related to server side networking, and you have your mcse designation

so it's seven tests which, in all, is about equal to taking just one cisco test, the ccna, which is fairly hard


3) i do know of a local ccnp, which is four cisco tests and a very hard mark to reach...and much more involved than the mcse

and the so-called "doctorate of networking" is the ccie, which is extremely hard to pass


4) certifications are still not degrees, but many say about the same or even better within the highly specialized and non traditional world of high tech

the bad thing about all certifications, is that they get outdated and most get retired after two of more years

i got my mcp in "windows nt" and that is retired and my wife did the A+ from the 1998 requirements and that test has since been replaced, too with the current A+ test

when i was in tech school, the ccna 1.0 was the standard, but has been replaced by the ccna 2.0 test and certification

basically, once you get certified, you have that on your resume and once you get a job, chances are you will be focusing on that more than further certifications

...if your job requires you to get another updated certification or another certification of a different topic, then they will most likely pay for some or all of your training


5) the pro to certifications is that a current one is more desireable than a college degree, especially if your certification is the mcsa or mcse...add cisco ccna to that, and you are very hireable

the con to certifications is that they eventually retire though some of them last a long time like the compTIA certifications like A+, server+, and network+


6) the best thing to do, is to finish high school, then get certified with one or even more certifications, and then get one or even more college degrees

in the end, if you have the diploma, a certification, and at least an associate's degree, you are sitting pretty

as a former hr officer for a high tech organization, a good resume would be:

a) high school dipoloma
b) A+ certification
c) any associate's degree

a better resume would be

a) high school diploma
b) microsoft certification
c) associate's degree in computer science or electronic engineering or electronics

an ultimate resume for someone entering the field would be:

a) a bachelor's degree, but preferably in a business or technical subject (ee and el are the ultimate gold standard in high tech)

b) the microsoft mcsa or mcse combined with A+ or cisco ccna

c) or the microsoft mcp, the A+, and CCNA

if you don't have your bachelor's, an associate's degree, the mcse, ccna, and A+ will fair as well

and if you don't have any college, you would have to have the mcse, the ccnp, and the A+ plus two years of experience to have an ultimate entry level resume in my opinion


7) the strange thing about this field, unlike let's say, medicine, law, or dentistry, is that all you have to be is good...you don't need a degree or certification to work in the high tech industry

still most of the people i know who have made a living in high tech do not have degrees or certifications, but this is slowly changing in silicon valley

i take it you are 15 and still in high school

my advice is to try for a certification or two and see where it places you in the high tech field

if you are doing well, stay there...but if you feel you need a boost in your career, get the associate's degree and then bachelor's degree later


8) in the end, unless you want to be in upper management, you probably will not need a master's degree

and usually unless you want to be a professor with the chance of being a major department head, you probably will not need a PhD

i hope this clarifies things and is still only my opinion


9) the best thing to do is to ask people like me who are making money as techies and not so much to teachers or professors, who usually don't have a clue as to what is needed for the most current computer world experience outside of education

and computer technical schools designed for the microsoft, compTIA, and cisco certifications will also not know what is needed for the field because their motivation will be for you to take and pay for as many classes as they can get you for


10) .....and finally, beware not to get too many certifications before you get the experience in your field of choice...split it up between experience, certifications, and education in school like high school and college:)

[jefhatfield]

in the computer field, with retiring certifications and changing languages and proprietary technologies, nothing is safe to hang you hat on

...not even a computer science degree

i have a friend who got his master's degree in programming/computer science and he told me it does not mean anything anymore

i asked him why, and he said that the languages he studied, ten years ago, are no longer being used anymore

to be on the safe side, he was considering getting a master's degree in business because he knew that would "stay current" for the rest of his life

every master's degree, or any degree for that matter, that i know of is valid on a resume as far as a human resource officer is concerned

...except for some technical degrees and the computer science degree if it involes programming languages like they usually do

you can say this is bad because this means that you always have to learn and add stuff to your resume because the saavy hr officer won't pay any attention to retired certifications or to any computer science degree older than five years old...hr people are trained to ignore such drivel on a resume...only current job related information which can be helpful to the employer today counts on a resume

that is why any good resume should be only one page

if you are an expert in os 7, windows 3.1, and know how to code in dead computer languages, then don't bother to put that on a resume...it can even hurt your chances for a job

but the good thing to the fast pace of the high tech industry is that if you are a self starter, you will be able to outrun your competition and while they get left in the dust and quit the computer field (and many do), you can always be on the top of the list for jobs and promotions

in promotions, in every field, you need good social skills and this is hard for many people...and you have to be able to dress professionally

...but luckily, in high tech, it's the only field where you can be shy as a church mouse, and possibly get by without ever having worn a suit, and still reach the top of your field

that is the beauty of high tech where you don't have to be like every other field and sell out and become a three piece suit yuppie

as for three piece suits, tech related people often say, "who needs it?"...look at steve jobs;)