Macs and Religion

[agreenster]

As said in another post, Im curious to see what this little Mac cult feels about the afterlife. I know its completely off the main subject of the site, but since Apple users can be pretty clique-ish/cult-ish/fanatics, I wonder what your views are.

Mine? Well, I was raised strongly rooted in the Protestant Christian tradition, but after a strong Catholic secondary-education, I now consider myself a generally spiritual, monotheistic, good-loving, semi-athiest, that certainly doesnt believe in the traditional Christian God (my professors would be so proud).

Does that make any sense? Sum it up: I believe in an all-knowing power, who is somewhat in charge, but allows the 'nature' of nature, the stupidness of man, and the goodness of the heart to mix together and run free. I dont believe in any organized religion, because it is historically wrong, political, and based on power, not love. Think of the Greek gods, and how wrong they were. How any more wrong are organized religions today? History will prove that these beliefs are wrong as well. I mean, c'mon, how can a religious group say that you have to believe ONE thing, or you will go to hell (or whatever) when there have been millions of people throughout the world who have died and never even heard of this particular religious group. Its rediculous, arrogant, and stupid. I believe that there is a higher power that will take care of things the way it knows how to, and we should love and respect each other here on earth so that the time we spend isnt full of unnecessary pain. We dont worry about whether or not the sun is coming up tomorrow, why should we worry what happens when we die? Its all controlled by the same power.

Anyway, I could go on. But I want to hear what you have to say.
(this post if more for the regular MacRumor folks, but newbies can feel free to jump in)

[menoinjun]

Atheist...pure and simple.

-Pete

[Ensign Paris]

There is an afterlife, no idea what it is!

Better involve Macs and F1!

Ensign

[irmongoose]

Originally posted by agreenster
Sum it up: I believe in an all-knowing power, who is somewhat in charge, but allows the 'nature' of nature, the stupidness of man, and the goodness of the heart to mix together and run free. I dont believe in any organized religion, because it is historically wrong, political, and based on power, not love. Think of the Greek gods, and how wrong they were. How any more wrong are organized religions today? History will prove that these beliefs are wrong as well. I mean, c'mon, how can a religious group say that you have to believe ONE thing, or you will go to hell (or whatever) when there have been millions of people throughout the world who have died and never even heard of this particular religious group. Its rediculous, arrogant, and stupid. I believe that there is a higher power that will take care of things the way it knows how to, and we should love and respect each other here on earth so that the time we spend isnt full of unnecessary pain. We dont worry about whether or not the sun is coming up tomorrow, why should we worry what happens when we die? Its all controlled by the same power.


Hey! Can you believe it? That's EXACTLY how I feel!!!



irmongoose

[davidc2182]

I was raised jewish, and have tried everything from paganism to satanism and to all who will flame me, satanism does not involve anything evil, all it involves is worshipping yourself and making yourself happy, rather than living a mild timid life of sacrifice and suffering. It also preaches karma or the rule of 3, in other words what confuscius said, do not do unto others as you do not want done to you. But satanism adds a little sub blurb stating, only do it if they deserve it. So now where does that leave me? My jewish teachers cannot answer those tough questions, and the one thing that they do say is that even if you dont believe in judaism, you're not going to hell, because there is no hell in judaism. Now I am a firm believer that there is a G-d up there and that every time some radical facist does something in the name of their G-d he slaps himself going what are these people thinking! Like when hitler did what he did, or when bin laden did what he did. As far as I'm concerned our great nation is as perfect as it can be, we have an eclectic mix of every major faith, and we have a delicate balance of people living in the grey which is where most live. I personally believe that you should let every one do as they please unless they harm another person. So we are all living in a computer generated dreamworld running on the universe's most advanced mac! Free will set to on! and saftey protocol set to off!

[teabgs]

I think there is possibly a g-d of some kind. Didnt believe so for a while but 4 years ago when I was in Israel I had a very spiritual occurance that can only be explained by there being a g-d. I still am not sure but because of that I have to be open to the possibility. I don't really buy into the afterlife, though itd be nice, I think we just end, and thats that. Just gotta live it up in the now and have fun while you can.

[mymemory]

I was very catholic until one day I decide to become an exchange student and end up in Arkansas. Since then I believe church is just a matter of bull s***t, specially in the "Bible Belt" area.

I never though that humans can grow up been so inmature and unexperience about live in such big quantities.

A religion is good to develop a society because it has the basic "rules" of comunity, is good as a reference. Some religons are very practical and some others not.
Until now the jewish is the closest to reality and bautism is the farest (I do not like to think too much about religions).

I prefeer to listen to all of them and practice what makes common sense, at the end, all of them are made by humans.

[Rower_CPU]

I was baptized and raised Catholic, went through some catechism, but never was confirmed or any of that. My family just stopped going after a while because we weren't getting anything out of it.
Sunday should be spent enjoying this amazing world around us. If you believe in a "higher power" that created everything, don't you think they would want us to appreciate and enjoy what they created?
If you are an atheist, you should then appreciate the "miraculous" series of events that had to take place to get us here and to create this beautiful planet/solar system/galaxy/universe.
Our free time (which we have so little of these days) should be spent relaxing and enjoying the beauties of nature.
I think all people have a right to believe as they see fit, I just don't appreciate the judgmental attitude most religions propagate.

[eyelikeart]

I was born Catholic....raised Catholic....went to Catholic high school....blah blah blah...

After I was more able to think for myself, I started to realize I didn't really get much from going to church & didn't agree with a lot of the traditions....so I guess I separated myself from the whole thing all together. I don't believe that one can go about and do anything they want, confess their actions to a higher order and go about forgiven (only to end up doing it all over again as most Catholics do!). I also still don't understand how sitting in a church for an hour repeating the same things over and over each week is going to earn me a good spot with the Almighty either.

As of right now, I can't say that I've claimed a particular faith....but I do have it. I believe there is a God & I believe there is an afterlife. I believe in the goodness & badness in others, which makes us all human afterall. I believe in spirits and that there are ghosts & angels about us all over.

I have found that even though the world is composed of different beliefs & traditions concerning religion, it all eventually comes down to a basic belief in a God or higher being.

However....I don't go for this "Holy War" ********* and what's been going on with the Mid-East & especially what we're being subjected to as a country since September 11....

[krossfyter]

i was raised catholic...i was never devout...i didnt buy all that ritualistic..praying to marry ....nonsense.
I found Mere Christianity to be pure and simple about 12 years after that. I really was impressed by what was said in "Mere Christianity" (a book by C.S. Lewis ). I believe that Jesus is mankinds only saviour and that without him were lost. I guess that makes me a Christian. Thats fine because all christian means is "christ in me".
Im definitly not the beat you over the head christian. I acccept everyones views and respect them but I know there are absolutes and they cant be denied. Im not the typical christian thats for sure. I just claim to be a Christ follower...pure and simple...nothing more ...nothing less. If I be hated or ridiculed for that then so be It I dont care. I care for everyone regardless of what they believe or not....and I never would ridicule them for what they stand for..be it atehism...paganism...wiccan...judiasm...hinduism...islam or whatever.

[mischief]

I believe there is a sentience to the universe and that sentience loves us as it loves everything. I believe the whole universe is both the holucination and manifestation of that force. I believe the right thing is always happening, it's just our concept of momentary context that pollutes our perceptions. I believe that our actions and beliefs directly effect how reality treats us. I have been haunted. I have experienced "energies" and percieved local "awarenesses" (never done hollucinogens either BTW). I believe that organized religion is a dogmatic scam but I acknowledge that some people have genuine faith in those traditions. I believe Faith is paramount but do not feel the format of that faith need be constrained by tradition. I am very close to my spirituality and hold Faith in all forms as sacred.

I was raised by equally agnostic parents who have studied the history of "western" religion extensively.

I have my own bias: No one has the right to claim Religion as cause for inflicting suffering. I believe that the archaic Catholic church (300AD-1850AD) was the M$ of human history. I believe that spirituality is essential to good mental health.

[alex_ant]

I'm really surprised at all the responses so far... I have to admit, although I am a Mac user myself, I generally tended to think of other Mac users as far-out, wacko, astrology-loving hippie types before now. You all seem very down to earth, though. Or maybe the Lord Zerlok of Planet Klazokknuk worshippers just haven't found the thread yet.

Alex

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by alex_ant
Or maybe the Lord Zerlok of Planet Klazokknuk worshippers just haven't found the thread yet.

Alex


They have.:D

[mac15]

oh hail steve jobs

[eyelikeart]

Originally posted by mac15
oh hail steve jobs

so with that....can we conclude Bill Gates as the Anti-Christ?!

[mischief]

So if G5 Towers come out with a 333Mhz bus running DDR wouldn't that mean they're running at 666? They most certainly WOULD be beasts and many of us do most of our money-related actions with our machines.................

It'd be damn funny if a Mobo was the antichrist.:rolleyes:

[barvow]

This is turning into an interesting sociological study.

Many people raised Catholic. None admitting to still be practising Catholics.

Two people of Jewish background or current practice. davidc2182 says he firmly believes in a God and teabgs admits to the possibility of one. However, both follow the tradition of not writing out the name of God out of respect for who God is. The rest of us appear to be on a less humble basis.

Generally there is a belief in a vague, benign entity that wouldn't send anybody to hell (if that is part of your belief system) for not believing any certain thing.

Some gravitate toward the worship of nature, some toward the worship of Steve Jobs.

Only two people took clear sides. krossfyter admitted to being a Christian, and believing in salvation through Jesus only. ptrauber says "Atheist...pure and simple." However, even HE believes in a god, and that god is named ptrauber. (A macrumors Demi-God, no less!)

By and large nobody got too worked up and nobody tried to convince anybody else that they were right or wrong. In today's politically correct society, that would be overstepping our boundaries as a human being. But just let someone disagree over YOUR visions of the G5, or what asinine thing Apple did to you, then the gloves come off and the cursing begins and we find just what makes us passionate! And if somebody doesn't see that what we are saying is right, it can get pretty nasty.

Personally, I'm in the same crowd as krossfyter. That would mean that I DON'T believe in a vague, benign entity. And that I do believe in hell, and salvation from it through Jesus.

When the rumors fly about a new Apple product (like the iPod or the iMac) everybody has an opinion and there are lots of intense and often unfriendly exchanges about the new product. Then one day the announcement is made, and everybody sits back and says "Oh, I was wrong" or "I was pretty much right" or somewhere in between. The personal opinions get compared to the truth.

The same thing's going to happen about our religious opinions, whether we say we believe anything or not. I think it's funny that we are polite about the future of our souls, but we'll bash people's heads in about a machine that is too slow for us to use in two years. :)

[mischief]

Not just a benign entity but an extension of all things into one another through mutual and intimate awareness.We are eddies in God's dreams.......The universe itself is God's exploration of Awareness...

Here's a pet theory (If you're a gamer this will be easier):

I believe that both Creationists and Physicists are correct. They both are wrong about the dates ans sequence.

I think it was a base 2 progression of expansive awareness. Laugh away, it makes sense from both sides. If a dimensional plane "woke up" it'd split down exponentially.

Wow.......Zonk......

Must have coffee........................

Did u know: Hashish was the invention of the Hashishin Tribe/Clan of Afghanistan? Did you know that very old translations of Jewish holy texts put Cannabis as God's preferred Incense:D :D :D

Just thought I'd start a bar braul.;) :rolleyes: :eek: :confused: :cool: :p

[agp]

I am a strong believer in the christian faith.

mail me at with questions (if you have any:)

Adrian

[Ifeelbloated]

When you die you'll find out if all the religion stuff was worth anything. Until then, don't worry about it. I just live life by the social ethics that we've imposed upon ourselves in this society. It's not perfect but it's not terrible either. I was raised a Christian and that's all I have to say about it. I'm not religious at all. Most Christians creep me out anyway. I guess I'm an existentialist. Plan to stay that way. Peace.

[Ifeelbloated]

I wonder if anyone's been buried with their Mac? Laptop?;)

[mischief]

Steve Jobs will be buried in a losenge of Bondi polycarbonate

[cleo]

I, for one, practice Theravada Buddhism. I say "practice" because, for those of who who have studied Buddhism, it's not really a matter of belief; there is understanding, and there is practice. If you have a lot of chatter in your brain, like I do, it's a *lot* of practice :) As for an afterlife... when someone dies, if their energy is reincarnated, then you surely will meet them again; we are all each other's mother in one life or another. If they have extinguished all craving and attained perfect understanding, then they will cease to exist. The Buddha said that is as impossible to explain to a person what nirvana is like as it is for a frog to explain to a tadpole what dry land is like.

Coincidently, my major in school was philosophy of religion. I always found it funny how many people would start out introducing themselves on the first day of class as, "I was raised Catholic, but..." What's with you Catholics, anyway? Maybe the Pope needs to take a lesson from Steve Jobs in how to maintain customer loyalty :D

[evildead]

Me and religion

Never went to church as a kid

was made to feel as an outcast because I didn't know anything about religion

When I got older, some of my friends parents wouldn't let them hang out with me because I didn't go to church.... which meant I was a bad influence (little did they know ... their kids were drug dealers and I was a good kid)

2 year relationship ended after she saw a mother a church with out daddy...

Girlfriend - "Why isn't your husband here today"
Mother - "He says home on Sundays"
Girlfriend - "How sad"
(later)
Girlfriend - "Your never going to change... its over"
evildead - "but ... but ... oh well"

Good friend of mine lost her virginity to her youth minister at age of 12. When she cried and said it hurt... he said "it wont hurt anymore when you become a woman"

My first Bible was given to me by a female baby sitter that like to play games with me that would have put her in jail. (I still have the bible)

Assaulted by a band of ex-gang bangers on a crusade to save souls... I guess they meant well... but it broke in to fist fights... many of them.

and many many more.....

I still don't go to church

[Ifeelbloated]

That's me in the corner...that's me in the spotlight...losing my religion...oh no, I've said too much...I've said enough....Don't know the rest of the lyrics...Oh crap...

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by mischief
So if G5 Towers come out with a 333Mhz bus running DDR wouldn't that mean they're running at 666? They most certainly WOULD be beasts and many of us do most of our money-related actions with our machines.................

The G5s would probably not be clocked that low, but you know, the high-end TiBook right now is actually NOT 667MHz - it's 133MHz x 5 = 665MHz. And if you take the average of 667 and 665...

Also, I'd like to point out another interesting fact about TiBooks. If you take the 550MHz model...

550 x 220 (the maximum capacity of Hell's vat of boiling feces) = 121000

121000 - 2450 (the average daily number of sinners waiting to be processed in Hell's entry queue) = 118550

118550 / 430 (the number of red-hot nails used to puncture the genitalia of rapists and child molesters) = 275.6977

275.6977 x 2.415689358 (the approximate age of Hell, in aeons) = 666!!!!!!!!!

There can only be one conclusion:

STEVE JOBS IS SATAN!!

Alex

[agreenster]

Thanks everyone--very enlightening and entertaining material in these posts.

The only comment I have is about right and wrong. Someone mentioned that when we die, we will discover if we were right or wrong about our particular faith. I hope that doesnt happen. How sad it would be for the millions of people who were denied eternity because they never heard of a particular religion, religious leader, or state of mind.

I guess I just trust in a creator who made me, to take care of me when I die.

Bottom line though? Doesnt matter your religion if you love people, forgive them, and try with every bone in your body to make your life, and those around yours better and more meaningful.

[krossfyter]

Barvow...thanks for that response. I think that was a really good observation of us mac heads thier toys and religion. Really good. Funny too.

Originally posted by Ifeelbloated
I guess I'm an existentialist. Plan to stay that way. Peace.


My friend practices exitentianalism through bong water!!! All the time.



:D

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by agreenster
Thanks everyone--very enlightening and entertaining material in these posts.

The only comment I have is about right and wrong. Someone mentioned that when we die, we will discover if we were right or wrong about our particular faith. I hope that doesnt happen. How sad it would be for the millions of people who were denied eternity because they never heard of a particular religion, religious leader, or state of mind.

I guess I just trust in a creator who made me, to take care of me when I die.

Bottom line though? Doesnt matter your religion if you love people, forgive them, and try with every bone in your body to make your life, and those around yours better and more meaningful.


Everyones judged upon what they know not what they dont know....I believe... so those people who for some reason dont hear the truth wont be denied eternity.... I can explain more but you have to e-mail me on that one.

Yeah your right it doesnt matter what religion you are and I would want us all to try and practice forgiveness and try to make our lives and those around us better and meaningful..I agree totally with that.

However I believe that our desicions reap certain consequences...bad or good...so we need to be carefull on what we decide.

I for one believe whole heartedly without a shadow of a doubt that Jesus is the only cure from the virus in our system. I can never not believe this because its as real to me as the fact that we can see the sun and the moon in our sky.

I mean there are absolutes and relatives and we it would be good for us to disnguise properly between them. Ahhh..... well.... thats my two cents worth right now.. I dont mean to say anyone is wrong or right Im just pointing out what I know.

[Choppaface]

I believe in science

[AlphaTech]

I was raised both catholic and Jewish (can you tell which I have more respect for??). My parents decided to show both my sister and I both sides (we stopped going to church when I was 6 or so).

I do not subscribe to any particular religeon. For me, the holidays are just a reason to get together with family and spend time together.

I also cannot subscribe to that entire creation theory. Evolution, that's the ticket :D. We cannot be the only intelligent life in the universe... since that would make for a rather sad state of things.

Just keep a couple of things in mind. Any technology advanced enough appears to be magic. Any being evolved enough appears to be a god. Any computer that is actually easy to use has to be a Mac :D.

[krossfyter]

ahh thats cool alpha tech.


i believe creationism and microevolutionism go together in most cases but I wouldnt bet my tibook on it. i strongly believe in the fundamentals of creationism and do not suscribe to the idea that life as we know it came from nothing. i believe that any design has a designer ...so the design of what we know as this universe has a designer....not bad thought aye! i really think science and religion go hand in hand...and there are a lot of things that make sense that normally wouldnt if you look at it from this persepetive.

man i dig philosohpy, science and theology...i could talk forever to almost anyone that wants to hear about it. i have many discussions with my freinds about this stuff.... its truelly engaging for me.

if any of you dig this stuff like i do...no matter what believe you have... i really strongly encourage you to read "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis.....

dont worry its not going to beat you over the head with the bible...actually it has no bible verses in it....it comes at you with intellectual philosophical real world persepctive thought and its deep ...really deep... but its broken down for almost anyone to understand. good stuff man...good stuff.

[ponyboy]

what are those...

I believe in God. I actually believe in Gods but that there is only one God to us. I believe that a mortal existence is a small piece of an entire existence aimed at teaching each of us the principles that govern the universe, rule the planets and perpetuate progression. Because eventually we can become what it is that we worship.

I believe in Jesus Christ and not only in him but in his divinity as a son of God and man and in the nessecity of aceppting that, and understanding what it means for each of us. I believe that the things he taught and the things he did in his life are the keys to the secrets of immortality.

I believe in immortality, not that our spirits continue forever but that all will live immortal physical lives, Christ reclaimed his body and never reseperated and promised each of tus the same ability, it is impossible to believe in Christ and not believe he is immortal the same way his father was and the same way we all will be.

I believe in the eventual accumulation of principles to the point where I will know how to be a God and will not only understand creation, but will be able to execute it.

This position is only one you can attain by living rightous principles and understanding what makes those principles rightous. Not everyone will make it to that level but if we dont its not because our God doesnt want us there.

I dont belive that we can live our lives not thinking or doing anything about this because there are certain principles that we are required to learn while in this stage and if we miss that the opportunity has passed.

I dont belive in Hell, but i do believe in suffering for things you have done if you dont allow Christ to take that suffering upon himself. And I do believe in stagnation or stunted progression toward the ultimate goal which is in its own way hell.

I believe in Gods authority and that he has granted that authority to men

I believe in rituals that are representative of eternity, its all part of the lesson we must learn.

(By the way Davidc2182 hitler never did anything in the name of God or religion, and he wasnt a fascist, I dont agree at all with things that he did but lets not spread non history.)

[748s]

RELIGION = INSTUTIONALISED IGNORANCE.

[Timothy]

I was born and raised in the religion headquartered in SLC. I was entirely and fanatically devoted to it for the first 26 years of my life. I participated and excelled in every aspect of the religion and culture; mission, education, marriage, etc. I completely saw the world through filtered eyes.

Through a series of important events, I became aware of how hollow the focus of my faith was. It's been 10 years since I decided that I needed some distance between myself and the faith of my childhood; I will not be going back.

If God exists, I've come to the conclusion that she doesn't want us to focus on her; rather, she prefers that we learn to govern ourselves with love and wisdom. I posit that she has sent us here to work things out on our own. But, when it comes down to it, I have no feeling for her existence one way or the other; I think God is superfluous and distracting.

I've taken up Philosophy as a means to understanding the development of western thought. I've come to the conclusion that most religious philosophy was created by those who were lazy at philosophy; absent the ability to convince others of the validity of their theories, they made an appeal to authority (God); religion pays better than philosophy, afterall. ;)

These questions remain as important as ever to me. I have a group of about 10 online friends with whom I debate/discuss these issues daily and in great depth. Most of them remain actively faithful in their religious viewpoints; I'm the lone heretic of the group.

BTW...I consider my participation on this forum another religious outlet! :D

[IndyGopher]

Originally posted by 748s
RELIGION = INSTUTIONALISED IGNORANCE.

*sigh* almost 2 full pages of posts before the losers come out to play... I really had high hopes I would make it to the end without seeing any drivel like the above. 3 word post, and couldn't even spell them all right.

The notion that ORGANIZED religion is the opiate of the masses holds a certain amount of water, but that does NOT equate to the IDEA of religion, of faith, beliefs, and adherence to a code being a Bad Thing. I think the words of 748s above rebuff their speaker quite well enough of their own.

As to my own beliefs, I haven't found an organized religion that I can follow completely. I do, however, believe that the King James version of the New Testament is pretty much the truth. I would be tickled to find a Church that can just take the words and go with them, without supressing the parts they don't like, or latching onto a part they really like and over-emphasizing it. I also feel that the tenets of the teachings of Jesus are a wonderful guideline for how to live even if you deny their sanctity or His divinity.

I believe that there is right, and there is wrong, and that actions, and inactions have consequences both here and beyond.. but I do not believe in an ongoing Hell-type punishment after death for evil-doers. "Hell" is Gehenna, the destruction of the soul.. ceasing completely to exist. I don't think, however, that simply not believing in the "right" religion is cause for that sort of destruction.

Anyway.. that's a rough outline of what I believe.

[eyelikeart]

Originally posted by 748s
RELIGION = INSTUTIONALISED IGNORANCE.

no offense....but that's a narrow-minded way of thinking...:(

[krossfyter]

religion is a system set up by man to try and reach the heavens. if you blame religion you are in essence blaming man for its faults...no one else.

[agreenster]

Originally posted by ponyboy
...it is impossible to believe in Christ and not believe he is immortal the same way his father was and the same way we all will be.


Hmmm. I think this is an assumption. I have heard people before say, "you cannot believe that jesus existed if you dont believe he was God."

How untrue. You can certainly believe that Jesus was just a man, who believed strongly that the Jewish faith had become currupted by laws, rules, and leaders, when the true nature of religion should be to love and respect, not sacrifice at altars. His followers, on the other hand, (ie: Paul) made him into a diety. He didnt even know Jesus for crying out loud. I also think much of the spiritual aspects of the New testament were made up, or exhagerated. But thats another discussion.

I believe that if jesus were around today, he would be quite upset at what he caused...more organized religion. Jesus was more like the first western thinker. Less rules, more respect.

[AlphaTech]

The bible is the oldest piece of fiction still in print today. It has been written and re-written so many times it's not even funny.

I put 0 credit in it.

[MacAztec]

I was raised...Christian or Catholic. I dont know which one. Christian I believe. I am starting to realize that I do believe in some all mighty thing, but it does not control my life. If I break my Mac (:) ) It is not going to "send me to hell". I do not confess, for I have not done anything to confess about. I think something created us, and now it is just watching us and laughing at our stupidity :D ;)

[MacAztec]

Originally posted by alex_ant


The G5s would probably not be clocked that low, but you know, the high-end TiBook right now is actually NOT 667MHz - it's 133MHz x 5 = 665MHz. And if you take the average of 667 and 665...

Also, I'd like to point out another interesting fact about TiBooks. If you take the 550MHz model...

550 x 220 (the maximum capacity of Hell's vat of boiling feces) = 121000

121000 - 2450 (the average daily number of sinners waiting to be processed in Hell's entry queue) = 118550

118550 / 430 (the number of red-hot nails used to puncture the genitalia of rapists and child molesters) = 275.6977

275.6977 x 2.415689358 (the approximate age of Hell, in aeons) = 666!!!!!!!!!

There can only be one conclusion:

STEVE JOBS IS SATAN!!

Alex

You forgot something. If I **** my pants facing north at 6:00 AM (when I wake up) and jump in the pool and wash myself 5 times (the number of times the Virgin Mary was laid) and then I piss on my dog twice (the number of times that he has praised the lord) and then **** eat my ****, I will be satan also. This thread was good, until that.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by AlphaTech
The bible is the oldest piece of fiction still in print today. It has been written and re-written so many times it's not even funny.

I put 0 credit in it.


are we talking about translations here...if so...there is nothing wrong with that. people must be able to read something in thier own language im sure you can agree to that. the bible is one of the oldest books that has had many predictions come true. its history is the most accurate...even if you dont agree with it. however the idea of it being fiction is not valid because there is more proff for the opposite.....even people who dont agree with the bible can attest to that. this mytology argument that people use against is something that will change when they actually study it.

i used to believe that too untill i started studying it.

:D

[AlphaTech]

I was referring to how many times it was writen over because someone didn't agree with what was in it. Never mind the FACT that the new testament wasn't actually writen until about 300 years AFTER the fact.

Any story that isn't writen down for over 300 years gets altered. People add or remove items, it gets changed, that is just the nature of the human animal.

I really don't feel like getting into a bible bashing session tonight, it's a bit late for that.

Religeon is a crutch that I don't need.

[AmbitiousLemon]

:) man has this been entertaining. I enjoy how the majority here are agnostic/atheist and yet as usual the christians come out in force and try to shove their beliefs down everyone's throat.

things havent changed much since the crusades have they friends?

748 was just lashing back at some of the ignorant and insulting posts made before him, sure he but it bluntly (and therefore insultingly) but he was just responding to something that had already started.

interesting how the christians dont even realize how insulting they are being.

i was raised in the absense of religion. i can remember being in the car with my mother one day and having her ask me what i believed. i was terrified to tell her i didnt believe in god. i tip toed around the question as easily as an 8 year old could.

i didnt know until i was in college that my mother was agnostic and my father was an atheist. i can only imagine how scared my father must have been when i started going to church every sunday for awhile (cisiting various churches with my friends or by myself). ive never bought any of it and ive never met an intelligient person who does.

i get told all the time that im "a good christian" just because im such a good person. if these people only knew. ive always tried to hide my beliefs (or lack there of), because in the United States there is no freedom of religion (hell there are 9 states in which it is illegal to hold a public office if you are an atheist).

ive been to quite a few funerals in my short time on this planet and they always make me sick. all these weak minded people using religion as a crutch to get through tough times. it trivializes life. it makes me sick to hear them speak of seeing this person again in the 'afterlife.' i stand there and understand the true loss. a human life, someone i loved, gone forever.

krossfyter, peace man. i dont want to attack you on this touchy topic, but i really want to encourage you to research the history of the Bible. If you do so and learn with an open mind i think you will be quite shocked if you currently feel there is anything factual about the bible. Scholars have long accepted the bible as something other than fact. if you want to treasure the bible, treasure it for the lessons it teaches (please ignore all the bigotry). there are some good stories there.

i know i probably rubbed some people the wrong way with this post, but keep in mind i was trying to be as fair as possible.

I have had to hide my religion (or lack there of) my entire life, and dont expect this to change in my life time, so i hope you can understand why some of us have an aversion to the patronizing/arrogant/ignorant posts of some of the christians here. i do not mean this to sound insulting but when you speak down to others, when you tell them that this is what you "know," and when you make statements about your own religion that are not true, i do not know of another way of saying it but to say that your post (not you) is patronizing/arrogant/ignorant.

i have some trusted friends who i can tell what i believe (and living in berkeley of course makes me feel much more free) and i have found that when i point out when they are being insulting that they act surprised but upon reflection realize what they have done. i hope the christians here can do the same.

i have had far too many experiences in my life regarding situations similiar to evildead's experiences to tell about them here, but i hope all of you who are christian can realize that to the rest of the world you represent a very oppressive regime and that your pride and ignorance reflected in your posts is as insulting to those of us who do not believe as the ignorant and prideful rantings of a Nazi are insulting to a Jew.

so keep in mind all of the people currently being killed in the name of your religion you are so proud of, and appreciate that many of us have had loved ones killed by people in the name of your religion, and that many of us must live in fear our entire lives because we do not believe what you believe.

[AlphaTech]

Nice post, and very well put AmbitiousLemon.

When my father passed away, one person, who we once considered to be a friend, asked if he had 'accepted jesus' or some crap like that. We told him flat out no, and he returned that he was going to hell... We have not spoken to him since, and if I ever see him I will give him more then just a piece of my mind. Thinking about what he said still urks me... After all that my father did for him, and how we never judged him with all the dumb ***** he did, he comes back with that.

I watched a show one time that was essentially the stand up comedy of the man who plays the Black Adder (forget his real name at the moment). One part of it was set in hell... the line that I will never forget 'christians, step this way, it turns out the Jews were right' he then hands off to his leutenant, Adolf.

I never really care what another person's religeos beliefs are, as long as they don't force them upon me. Or say that I am 'going to hell' because I don't subscribe to their beliefs. I believe in my own abilities, which is something that I can trust. I don't trust a 2000 year old piece of fiction (I still believe that is is fiction).

More brutality and crimes against humanity have been committed in the name of religeon then anything else. Remember the crusades people... as well as things going on in the world today because people have different beliefs.

[MacAztec]

Originally posted by AlphaTech
Nice post, and very well put AmbitiousLemon.

When my father passed away, one person, who we once considered to be a friend, asked if he had 'accepted jesus' or some crap like that. We told him flat out no, and he returned that he was going to hell... We have not spoken to him since, and if I ever see him I will give him more then just a piece of my mind. Thinking about what he said still urks me... After all that my father did for him, and how we never judged him with all the dumb ***** he did, he comes back with that.

I watched a show one time that was essentially the stand up comedy of the man who plays the Black Adder (forget his real name at the moment). One part of it was set in hell... the line that I will never forget 'christians, step this way, it turns out the Jews were right' he then hands off to his leutenant, Adolf.

I never really care what another person's religeos beliefs are, as long as they don't force them upon me. Or say that I am 'going to hell' because I don't subscribe to their beliefs. I believe in my own abilities, which is something that I can trust. I don't trust a 2000 year old piece of fiction (I still believe that is is fiction).

More brutality and crimes against humanity have been committed in the name of religeon then anything else. Remember the crusades people... as well as things going on in the world today because people have different beliefs.

Well Put. If I EVER saw that guy, he would wish he was in hell...

[voicegy]

Wow, of all the post topics that I thought would go down in flames, ignored or otherwise trashed in a hearbeat soon after its creation, this one has flown, has been insightful, and basically very level headed and interesting as all get-out.

It's tempting to go on for PARAGRAPHS about where I'm at, what I believe, etc. But I think I can sum it up pretty quickly, as I don't really want to get into it TOO much, but can't help but to contribute to what has become a most intriguing post.

I was brought up with no particular religion. Parents watched football, sent me to a little church on Sunday's. (I was baptised, however, in my mom's home town in England when I was 5...East Durham, in Norwich, for our English friends) They never tried to shove anything down my throat, so I was pretty much left to discover things my own way. Tried this and that, read a lot (including C.S. Lewis...AWESOME author!!) and about 15 years ago (I'm 43) figured that Jesus had it pretty much together and invited Him in.

Since then, I've come to think a lot of his teachings may have been misconstrued, and although I believe He was one of the greatest teachers of elightenment in our history, the "religion" that grew up around his work isn't altogether, well...all together. Basically, I believe it's a stilling of the mind and pointed meditation that brings one close to The Source, God, what-have-you, and that practice is the one thing that shows what Love really is. It comes down to a one-on-one relationship.

So, in conclusion:

1. I offer my post just as my 2 cents. I won't debate it nor discuss it further here, 'cause I respect all of ya and, after all, I'm not really here for THIS kind of discussion, interesting as it is!

2. I'm impressed with those who "came out" as Christian or subscibing somewhat to that arena. It opens one up to possible "slamming" so, in a way, it's pretty brave.

3. Personal beliefs tend to bend and change slightly over time. That's why it's easy for me to respect all of the places where y'all are at, and anyone else, for that matter. Check back with yourselves in 10 years or so. I bet the results will be interesting.;)

[eyelikeart]

:( that story about your dad.....and your ex-friend...that's absolutely terrible!!

I believe that religion is a choice...and I absolutely look down upon the ones who try and shove it in your face....

I'd have literally beaten the ***** out of him if it would have been me whom he said it to... :mad:

[AlphaTech]

voicegy, I can guarantee that in 10 years, or for that matter in 50 years I will believe the same as today.

Religion is a crutch that I do not need. I have a strong enough sense of self to not need to believe in something all-powerful.

I hear people thanking god for this that or the other thing, but when do you hear them blaming him??? You can't have it both ways you know. If something good happens with what I do, then it is becasue of what I did, not something else. The same goes when I screw up, if I ***** up, then it is MY fault.

[krossfyter]

That must be hard alpha tech. Im sorry also. I also had to deal with the death of a family member...my sister ..killed by a drunk driver...so in a way I know how you may feel. And that person who told you that about your father going to hell....is not the person you should listen to...of course..you figured that out. That person sounds callous with no tack. Im also sorry that that person has shaped your views on those good christians out there who actually care. You see Christians are just like everyone else..you got your good ones and your bad ones. Why? Because they are falible too..still human right. The crusades...well thats another story...but there are actually some people who feel that the crusaders back then were actually practicing satanists disguised as christians... I dont know but what they did to people was horrible and I would never wish that on anyone. I hate forcing believes or anything on people...I pride myslef on not doing that. I simply lay out what I know about the truth and let others decide for themselves. I am very apauled by those christains around me that push thier views on others...i often butt in on conversations when this happens and help the one being pushed. I understand people have different views and believes and one has to be very sensitive when dealing with these issues. I never..never..never ..in a million years want anyone to be hurt, forced, pushed or whatever like that ...by what I may do or say or by any other view. I care the best that I can (the way Jesus cared for us) for everyone. Jesus himself was open minded and he respected everyones views during his time. I plan on being the same way. I usually dont live by example of other christians..because they too are falliable... I try my best at looking at Christ as an example of how i should treat others and be. Im not too fond of the legislative side of relgion and im more into the reaching God part. I really dont care for religion ...period...because its often times not what God is. God is not religion.
But thats my belief and i hope you dont feel like im pushing that on you. Im simply stating what I view it as. You are entitled to your own views just as much as the next guy and me.

I hope I did not bother anyone on what I said. Im just trying my best to express myself while at the same time help others out while being sensitive to thier views.

[agreenster]

I see where you got your name.......Cross-fighter......interesting.

Im glad to see your passion and conviction about what you speak. I used to be the same way, being the son of a pastor and everything. (My father is an amazing man, because he completely allows me to explore and think for myself, and doesnt shove religion down my throat.....but I digress) So, I was raised in a Southern Baptist church--and raised around fire and brimstone preachers who proclaim that everyone and their nephew are going to hell if they dont repent.

But then I got educated. I know thats a harsh way to put it, but its true. The less you know about history, the more you subscribe to teachings straight from the Bible. So, I encourage you to really challenge what you read. Dare yourself to learn that the gospels were written designed to make the Greeks believe that Jesus was diety--and gave him a half-god, half-human birth. This made it easier for god and goddess believing greeks to subscribe to christianity. I hate to burst the bubble, but Jesus most likely was not born of a virgin, he was just a normal man with extraordinary views.

Anyway, dont take my word for it. Read--read more than just the Bible--take classes, explore. You may be suprised what you find out. I walked into my New Testament class in college completely subscribing to Christianity. Thanks to my professor, I began my journey with open eyes, and seeing for Jesus who he really was, and the world how it could be, and it doesnt involve worshipping Jesus as all. (in fact, if you look, Jesus never asked for anyone to worship him, he always pointed to God)

Anyway, we could all go on forever. Im glad this thread has been so interesting to everyone. I thought it might catch on. People just love to talk religion!!
Thanks!

[krossfyter]

agreenster...thanks for that. i respect your view but i have to say i disagree...not surprising right! well i hear what you are saying ...on that argument of Jesus not being diety. i have heard this plenty of times and have studied most of the views from this perspective. i can argue the old testament giving more than enough reference to Jesus being the Messiah and God in human form...etc. etc. as well as more arguments. Im sure you have heard some of these. We will go around in circles with no one gaining or loosing because we have strong believes. actually it all come down to faith...you have faith that Jesus is not the only way and I have faith that he is the only way. Added to faith I have other reasons for knowing that Jesus is the messiah and one with God. Currently Im focusing my studies on C.S. Lewis's writings/chats.....In the past I have studied asimov..hienlyn...hellinistic views as well has plato etc. etc...all those secular philosophies....I have opened my mind and heart to different view points and trying to figure out whats the truth and not. It always comes down to what Jesus has shown me himself and taught me. If we are not in tune with the holy spirit we are easily lead astray...decieved by the one whos job is to confuse the truth...making people believe the truth is a lie and a lie is the truth.. etc. etc.

But thanks anyways for telling me that. Im always eager to hear what arguments people have and thier views....regarless if they contradict mine like black and white.

:D

[mischief]

The problem is of course: There is no metric for the "truth".

In a way all systems of belief are correct, that is they all have a piece of the truth. The problems arise when the differing groups try to assert that their piece is the WHOLE truth.

I think that the most terrifying possibility for most people IS the truth: The universe did not "begin" and will not "end". Basic Newtonian principals.

The argument about the displacement of context in Christianity only effects the historical accuracy of the text. All Faith is valid. Concepts like "hell" and "the Devil" are creations of the Catholic church in a need to create a "boogie man" to keep the illiterate masses in line. Faith based on fear is tenuous and often not faith at all, but a visceral driving horror.

We must keep in mind that all Faiths are based on the same framework of basic memes. The single most fundamental is (hate to be corny but....) :

"Thou shalt not violate."

The problem is, of course: we are a species polluted by lazy rules-lawyers. These are the same goofs that piss off their GM/DM's at Gaming and wear a neckbrace to court regardless of their health. They immediately ask: " Violate what? Could you be more specific? I need to be able to work a few loop-holes."

This is where self interest goes too far. We must each take responsability for our own actions and understand that no other being can govern our moral sanctity than ourselves.

We are unique only in our cognative dissonance. We can separate ourselves from the context of the moment. This is a heavy responsibility when we are also the 400Lb gorilla of our eco-system. In NO religion did God or Gaia or whomever say:" Here's a nice planet for you. Feel free to **** it up! Keep in mind that you'll be screwed first if you throw it too far out of whack."

[nicely]

I simply lay out what I know about the truth and let others decide for themselves. I am very apauled by those christains around me that push thier views on others...

Notice how even Christians like krossfyter, who say they are tollerant of others beliefs, and that they don't try to force their opinions on others, still preach the loudest. Almost 1/5 of the posts in this thread are from krossfyter sharing and defending his Christian beliefs.

I've lost some of my very best friends to the religon.

I was raised Christian, I am currently not practicing any religion.

[mischief]

I'ts just me, my Angel (higher self) and the Universe.:cool:

I/We don't fold my/our wings in the company of Fearlings anymore.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by nicely


Notice how even Christians like krossfyter, who say they are tollerant of others beliefs, and that they don't try to force their opinions on others, still preach the loudest. Almost 1/5 of the posts in this thread are from krossfyter sharing and defending his Christian beliefs.

I've lost some of my very best friends to the religon.

I was raised Christian, I am currently not practicing any religion.


that loud sound you hear is my immovable ..unbreakable...faith and understanding of truth. if i be slayed for such a thing then so be it. i too am not practicing any religion. i simply follow christ. nothing more nothing less.

[krossfyter]

mischief....

how does this sound to you...

truth is not contengent upon us.


meaning ...we dont make or create the truth it is always there no matter what we believe of it or not.


this comes down to an understanding of absolutism and relitivism.


one persons truth is not another persons truth.

whos right? whos wrong? no one you say...(maybe the christian is wrong...this is what most people like to think).... "everyones beliefs are truth". well if everyones beliefs were truth...then we have a lot of conflicting and contradicting beliefs on truth. this would mean that everything is relative.

say that one persons beliefs hold that it is justified to kill someone else ....osama bin laden for example...

then those who say that everyones beliefs are valid....have just given the osamas a ticket to do what they do with this justification.

some of us however assert that "no the osamas beliefs are wrong because they condone the killing of others...and that just wrong" .... well where the heck did we get this idea from ? some sort of moral compass aye!!

you see not everything can be relative. people want others to believe how they want to..until of course...they justify killing. then they are wrong.

well isnt someone elses beliefs being asserted or pushed onto another?
whos right whos wrong? where do we get this moral metric system? or as i like to call it the moral compass...

[mischief]

Reality is what it is. It appears that it reacts more than in simple terms to our actions.

However, morals and ethics ARE relative......this is a function of free will. Society has settled on common terms of morals and a common ethical code.

Many religions share a common belief that womever or whatever changed our view of the Universe by allowing us to see more than the moment ( to separate our personal context from that of our circumstance) also instilled in us the principal of "Thou shalt not violate".

This figure also gave us the freedom to choose our own paths. Thus both views are correct. The universe is what it is. Each of us sees it through our own unique filter as as such, each of us has a relative view and effect.

Bin Laden was, as far as he was concerned doing the "right" and perhaps even the "devout" thing. The rest of us don't see it that way. This is free-will relativism.

There are, in effect as many Universes and Gods as there are people to think and believe.

The Universe's "true" state can never be known as obsevation itself is a cognative filter. The very act of observation corrupts our data stream. In this context it can be said that all things ARE relative because no two views will ever come out the same.

As to the Universe's view of Morals and Ethics? Nothing has been said in more than 4000 years. In a system so large, aren't there more important things to keep track of? How much ego is involved in calling ourselves God's chosen monkey? How do other sapiens feel about this?

[krossfyter]

okay..... cant argue with you there.

do you agree that there are absoultes in the world? what do you consider as these absolutes?


free will is what we all have....able to choose whatever we want. God gave this to use becasue he did not want robots following him. Love without free will is not love.


however we all have consequences to our decisions....bad or good.

[evildead]

My mother went to a funeral this weekend for a friend of hers that recently passed away. The family is all Buddhist except the youngest Daughter (a new covert? we know how those are) During the service she did not participate with any of the traditional ceremonies. Then came the time for very one to come to the front and say a few words if they wanted to. The youngest daughter invited some friends of hers from her Christian Church. One guy got up in front and Asked ?Are you ready to die? she wasn?t? and pointed to the casket. He went on to explain how ?she? was going to hell and so was every non-Christian in attendance. The husband that had just lost his wife? left the room during the speech, he could not take it any more.

I have been attacked on the street, called at home, bothered at school, even harassed at Starbucks, but I have never heard of a Christian coming to a funeral of a mother religion to spout off an push their beliefs on others. I understand that part of being a Christian is to try to convert and every thing? but man that was one of the rudest things I have ever heard a Christian do in the context of pushing beliefs on people. My mother went up to the guy after the service and told him that ?I under stand that you don?t know much about the culture but to us, that was inappropriate? He called her an ?evil old women? and spouted off how only the devil would try and stop the word of God.

I wish I were in attendance? I would have showed him what the son of an evil old women is capable of when he pissed off at some self riotous Christians. Oh? did I mention that they came as 4-man force?

Some of you guys were talking about people that like to shove their beliefs down other people?s throats? Thought I would post what happened this weekend to my mother.

Add one more reason why I don?t believe??

[krossfyter]

thats unfortunate evildead.

this is why i dont use man or christians as an example of God (not religion since that is a man made) i try to hold Jesus up to this example for me. Jesus never fails but man and christians do.

im sick and tired of these so called christians pushing people around. however im also tired of any secular person doing the same...ive had plenty do this to me. i keep my cool though.


:D

[eyelikeart]

Originally posted by krossfyter
that loud sound you hear is my immovable ..unbreakable...faith and understanding of truth. if i be slayed for such a thing then so be it. i too am not practicing any religion. i simply follow christ. nothing more nothing less.

I apologize....for I all but lost interest in this thread....

but...

I applaud krossfyter for his strength in his beliefs....whether he's preachy or not....he's holding true to what he believes....

that definitely a lot more than most can claim....including myself ;)

[mischief]

We all enhabit the same dream.

Change is eternal and unending.

Everything else is up to us to decide on. That is free will. That is the ballance of things.

Those of us who prey on others in any of a thousand ways only serve to strengthen the "do no harm" ethos of humanity as a whole. These are teachers every bit as great as Buddah or christ or John or Muhammad. They show us the horror that a closed mind driven by fear can create.

Some could call the first eternal "God's will" I call it the law of mutual perception. The second is a simple limitation of our awareness as metabolic creatures.

All religions agree on one thing: We exist to learn and develop beyond our basest animal selves. I also hold this belief. I am firmly of the belief that "life" is the penultimate RPG (Role Playing Game). The Characters live and die but the Gamers live on and learn about the Universe as they add lives to their experience.

I also share the belief that We are destined for things we are as yet afraid to attempt. The key to it all is communication and understanding. At no other time in history could this conversation take place. As this infrastructure spreds we will come into our birthright. Humanity is coming out of adolescence.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by mischief
Concepts like "hell" and "the Devil" are creations of the Catholic church in a need to create a "boogie man" to keep the illiterate masses in line. Faith based on fear is tenuous and often not faith at all, but a visceral driving horror.




hell was mentioned in the old testament...right after the babylonian captivity (the old testament is not in chronological order)....it could not have been created by the catholic church....it was first mentioned in jewish text.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by mischief
We all enhabit the same dream.

Change is eternal and unending.

Everything else is up to us to decide on. That is free will. That is the ballance of things.

Those of us who prey on others in any of a thousand ways only serve to strengthen the "do no harm" ethos of humanity as a whole. These are teachers every bit as great as Buddah or christ or John or Muhammad. They show us the horror that a closed mind driven by fear can create.

Some could call the first eternal "God's will" I call it the law of mutual perception. The second is a simple limitation of our awareness as metabolic creatures.

All religions agree on one thing: We exist to learn and develop beyond our basest animal selves. I also hold this belief. I am firmly of the belief that "life" is the penultimate RPG (Role Playing Game). The Characters live and die but the Gamers live on and learn about the Universe as they add lives to their experience.

I also share the belief that We are destined for things we are as yet afraid to attempt. The key to it all is communication and understanding. At no other time in history could this conversation take place. As this infrastructure spreds we will come into our birthright. Humanity is coming out of adolescence.


very profound thoughts there. i like your style. :D

[mischief]

It's remarcably difficult to translate aramaic without using 2 or 3 words per concept. The text that we are used to seeing was translated through Greek and Roman versions. Those are the cultures that give us the modern concept of Purgatory. Dante is responsible for the "layer-cake" version.

The passage may translate many ways but I assure you, no Jewish scholar will find a reference to "hell" in their texts, old or new.

For example:

The old hebrew word for "God" translates as a Plural gender-neutral meaning more akin to "Great Spirit" as the American Aborigines use.

The hebrew word "Elohim" is translated as: God, The Angels, The Chorus of Angels, The Council of Maji etc., etc. Effectively in it's original context all these meanings were used interchangeably.

I believe that you can make your own "hell" if you find a road toward spiritual fulfillment and actively deny it's teachings in your own beliefs, thus denying yourself.

[MacAztec]

You know those Christians that don't enjoy themselves because they believe they are sinning? I hope nobody on this site ever turns out like that.

I believe that we should live life to the fullest, and not have some "all mighty" force restraining us from doing so. ?Do we only live life once? I sure as hell hope not, for then I could not see what Apple has made! :D

As for religion, I was born Christian, but I have only gone to church about 10 times in my whole life to pray. 4 of them were for my dying aunt which had cancer, and I dont even know what the otehr 6 were.

All I am saying is that I think there is something that created us, but it is not MY master. I think that diversity is great.

Maybe a greek god created greeks. And a Chico god created chineese, and so on...

I maybe spend 1 second per day thinking about religion. It all doesn't add up. If mary was a virgin, how did she have a baby? I dont know what I am even talking about.

I do think people should mourn and stuff like that. When there is a tragedy, like 9-11, people should not start getting into religion crap. I heard some girl sued her school because they had a moment of SILENCE. Not prayer, silence. The bi*ch was offended and sued! Now that is horse crap.

I think I am going to stop writing now, for what I am saying probly doesn't make much sence.

[kmsawyer]

Like krossfyter, I'm a christian. I have seen too many incredible things happen in my life to doubt God's existence. I think what krossfyter has said so far is biblically sound and trustworthy. And I would also recommend "Mere Christianity" to you if you're interested in seeing what the christian faith is all about.

This forum is really interesting to me because I'm in a class right now at college on the philosophy of religion and we've gotten into some of the same stuff people have mentioned here. I'm also in an Old Testament class where we've been dealing with the issue of the validity of the Bible, and although there's new archaeological evidence each year about that pro and con, I'm pretty convinced that the Bible is true. I'm also reasonably certain that nothing I could say right now would convince you either way. But if you ever have the urge to go and see what the Bible has to say, I'd recommend reading the New International Version translation because it's straightforward and easy to understand. Peace.

[agreenster]

I cant believe this thread is still going. If this keeps up, Ill win the "longest thread starter" award. That is, unless, arn shuts us down.

But i do have some comments.

Buddism, Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Scientologists, Mormons, Catholics, and Jews. What do they all have in common? None of them, not ONE person from this faith has ever died and came back to tell about it. Yes, thats right--even jesus.

FACE it people. We do NOT, and CAN not know truth regarding the afterlife. Hell nor heaven can be promised anyone, becuse we dont even know if it exists.

Faith? Faith is nothing more than the polite way of saying, "I really dont know the truth, but as long as I believe in something, and truly believe in it, then that will become truth based on that belief." Hogwash! That would be like someone jumping out of an airplane, not knowing if they have a parachute on, but believing really hard that they do, and then telling everyone else that they are going to die and go to hell if they dont start believing it too. Gimme a break!

I strongly believe that Jesus was just a man who valued love over laws and rules. And what did he manage to do? Spur a religion of rules and laws.

I believe that if jesus were alive today, he would be very, very dissapointed. I know you strongly believe that you are 'lead' by the Holy Spirit, and I know what you are feeling. (i used to be a holy roller too) But start facing the music- This world is RUN by chance, danger, and luck. Right now, someone is getting promoted, hitting the lottery, and having a baby. Right now. Also right now, someone has just been hit by a car, died of cancer, just had their husband divorce them, or lost a baby in delivery. its called life. its called earth.

Whats my point? That its silly, rediculous, and time-wasting to spend every moment thinking about God, and the church, getting to choir practice on time, or if the Holy Spirit is 'leading' you in the right direction. Its so hypocritical. people could either make a good decision and be promoted, or make the wrong one and get fired. A normal person would say, "Sheesh, looks like I made a poor decision." But the christian says, "it was the will of the Holy Spirit."

Love your fellow man. Do good in the sight of your friends and your enemies. Follow what Jesus actually said---dont follow a silly hocus pocus religion. jesus was practical and logical. I choose to be THAT kind of follower, and let the afterlife take care of itself, however it may be. Thats real courage. Thats real faith.

[Six]

raised a catholic... and still am... although i do not go to church on a weekly basis, i still try to do what i think God intended me to do... live my life to the fullest. :)

[evildead]

Originally posted by krossfyter
thats unfortunate evildead.

this is why i dont use man or christians as an example of God (not religion since that is a man made) i try to hold Jesus up to this example for me. Jesus never fails but man and christians do.

im sick and tired of these so called christians pushing people around. however im also tired of any secular person doing the same...ive had plenty do this to me. i keep my cool though.


:D


Thats a good attitude. I respect peoples beliefs and I know it takes a lot of guts to actuly follow those beliefs. what I dont like if being told how "evil" i am and how bad of a person I am by members of youth groups that bing in lonly yought people that need friends, bribe them with friend ship to join the faith and then engage in underage driking and sex all under the shroud of "Christian Group". I was once at a Wedding with a big group of people that all were in the same youth group spanning multiple chapters (they were no longer in it... got too old) They were swaping stories of the good old days. How the older members would buy the booze, and how one underage couple got cault having sex while so un-inhibited by the driks, having sex in the living room at a party infront of eveyone. They all were having a great time talking about it. I butted in and said. "gosh... I should have joined up. Us heathens had a hard time in High shool getting our hands on booze. And who needs prono when you have underage girls having sex right in front of you" They didnt like that. I said "what... was it something I said... all I mean is you relgious people know how to party" I guess they didnt like my jokes. They told the minister that was giving the service that I needed a talking to... he did durring the reception.

No one is perfict... Im glad that you see that and you incorporate that into your faith. I respect that.

[Beej]

I'm 100% non-religious.

[davidc2182]

ok to ponyboy, I agree with you and apologize I did not make the distinction between religious fascism and hitler, I would capitalize but being a Jew it would be too eery :) ok and with regards to hitler think about this for a second, ok so he didnt like jews, lets not forget blacks, non-german/arians, gays, lesbians, etc. 12 million in total. he thought he and his own were superior to everyone else, so in an abstact way you have to believe that the reason for his belief was a convoluted religious one. The reason he did not publicise it was because if he offended the world as people no biggie, offend the world's religions oh **** watch out! And if I'm wrong i'll find out when I meet him on the other side, I for one do not believe anyone goes to a hell, I believe we are all here for a reason be it good or bad. Hypothetically speaking if reincarnation exists: if you lived all your lives in a good and just manner, how would you complete the journey? By committing an amount of evil equal to the good you have done. That is my view, and anyway I know former arians and neonazis that firmly believed they were better because of a mandate from above and via science, which we all know now is not true, at least scientifically. With regards to science, in Judaism G-d created everything with a set of boundaries and rules. so if playing by the rules G-d cannot directly do something that was not built into the rules of nature. With that principle in mind Rabbi's believe all true science must agree with religion. So eveything, every miracle, occurence, was built into the OS of the universe. I firmly believe this, now unto the comments of Jesus, I would hyphenate out of respect but I dunno where to put it. OK I do believe he was the son of G-d, as much as I believe that we are all the son's and daughter's of G-d. Jesus was jewish, he performed miracles as numerous others have in the historical record even those of other religions and descents. For me Jesus was a prophet of G-d as Moses was, etc. But in respect for the miracles performed by every holyman, the power resides in everyone, human will is the strongest force. If we want something badly enough as a group our focused energy creates it, this effect has been documented when a sick person is miraculously healed through a congregation praying intently for the person. We use 10 percent of our brains, imagine if we could unlock the rest, imagine having full psionic capabilities, being able to communicate with G-d, move things with your minds, create miracles, it is all possible, but most of us are unworthy. The messiah many are waiting for would most likely be laughed out of existence because any miracle could be dismissed as a trick, hallucination, etc. People are expecting some shocking miracle, in the old days simple miracles sufficed for a prophet to prove himself. In closing I wished not to offend anyone by this post and am just stating my opinion and would love feedback, and love reading everyone's opinions and ramblings it makes me overjoyed to sit here @ 2am reading and responding to this post listening to my ipod, using my ibook, and knowing that we are all communicating and a respectable and civilized manner :-) perhaps this is the true meaning of commraderie, perhaps not.

OK 3 more things, Bill Gates is the ultimate expression of evil, and out of hatred for winblows I hope they do have to pull winblows off the market. secondly, Steve Jobs is an angel :-) mac rocks! but speaking of reincarnation again, think they will have to switch sides to complete their journeys. Third and final, I figured out what the big bang actually was it was the loudest ever startup chime signifying the booting of the best mac around, G-ds mac!

Oh and a question to everyone, I know you love your macs, I will be buried with a piece of apple hardware in my coffin, and I was wondering if anyone else would volunteer to be the first group to be cybernetically linked to their computers when man and machine begin to meld? of course on a mac :)

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by Mac_User

I believe that we should live life to the fullest, and not have some "all mighty" force restraining us from doing so. ?Do we only live life once? I sure as hell hope not, for then I could not see what Apple has made! :D




I see "the all mighty" ...God...as not restraining us from having fun or doing what we want... he allows us to do whatever we want. however there are consequences to our decisions and only God knows the best direction for us...so he directs us into what we should do...its up to us to decide.... so I see him as the protector...keeps us from harming oursleves. Fun can be whatever we want it to be. Its relative to us. Someones (God forbid) fun might be killing people. So by your statement then that person should be allowed to have that fun. To that person thats living life to the fullist....you see what im getting at?((((Once again we into the wonderful world of abolutism and relativism))))
That person will have direct consequences to his/her idea of fun. So ...for the person who follows God...God will have made that person understand that thier version of fun is going to get him/her in trouble.
Gods a protector.
Just because one follows God does not mean they dont have any fun...its just not the Mainstream fun that everyone else has....so to speak. These people who follow GOd believe it to be the cleanest most abundant fun one could have. NOthing wrong with that.

Anyways I hope you understand where im getting at.

dig it!

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by agreenster
I cant believe this thread is still going. If this keeps up, Ill win the "longest thread starter" award. That is, unless, arn shuts us down.

But i do have some comments.

Buddism, Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Scientologists, Mormons, Catholics, and Jews. What do they all have in common? None of them, not ONE person from this faith has ever died and came back to tell about it. Yes, thats right--even jesus.

FACE it people. We do NOT, and CAN not know truth regarding the afterlife. Hell nor heaven can be promised anyone, becuse we dont even know if it exists.

Faith? Faith is nothing more than the polite way of saying, "I really dont know the truth, but as long as I believe in something, and truly believe in it, then that will become truth based on that belief." Hogwash! That would be like someone jumping out of an airplane, not knowing if they have a parachute on, but believing really hard that they do, and then telling everyone else that they are going to die and go to hell if they dont start believing it too. Gimme a break!

I strongly believe that Jesus was just a man who valued love over laws and rules. And what did he manage to do? Spur a religion of rules and laws.

I believe that if jesus were alive today, he would be very, very dissapointed. I know you strongly believe that you are 'lead' by the Holy Spirit, and I know what you are feeling. (i used to be a holy roller too) But start facing the music- This world is RUN by chance, danger, and luck. Right now, someone is getting promoted, hitting the lottery, and having a baby. Right now. Also right now, someone has just been hit by a car, died of cancer, just had their husband divorce them, or lost a baby in delivery. its called life. its called earth.

Whats my point? That its silly, rediculous, and time-wasting to spend every moment thinking about God, and the church, getting to choir practice on time, or if the Holy Spirit is 'leading' you in the right direction. Its so hypocritical. people could either make a good decision and be promoted, or make the wrong one and get fired. A normal person would say, "Sheesh, looks like I made a poor decision." But the christian says, "it was the will of the Holy Spirit."

Love your fellow man. Do good in the sight of your friends and your enemies. Follow what Jesus actually said---dont follow a silly hocus pocus religion. jesus was practical and logical. I choose to be THAT kind of follower, and let the afterlife take care of itself, however it may be. Thats real courage. Thats real faith.


I understand what your saying here. ...for the most part I agree with it.. I srongly disagree with the Jesus just being a man....of course.


Your right about following what Jesus said...not to follow any hocus pocus religion... Jesus did not come down to set up a religion or a creed or a doctrine or a set of rules.... His main mission was to save the lost and show us how to live an abundant life...Some people dont see that part because mans religion has unfortunalty coverd it for them.

People have thier views of Jesus or Christianity skewed or harmed because of the bad apples in Christianity.


This thread has gone on more then I thought it would. Im glad no one is becoming hostile. Its cool how everyone just says what they are going to say and they stay cool.


Dig it!

[davidc2182]

Think about it this way krossfyter, assuming G-d exists as well as the afterlife: if G-d did create everything, then G-d created both good and evil, maybe G-d created evil not only to show us the joy of goodness, but because we all need to experience evil @ one point or another to be a whole beautiful being. Be it through sorrow, or causing sorrow. And also if G-d did create anything then surely it would be hippocritical of G-d to punish us for indulging in G-d's creations no matter the human classification of such, so what do you think krossfyter?

[krossfyter]

you are right God created everything. in order for good to exist there must be a bad...in order for light there must be a dark.

simple right! it gets more complicated though.

Gods gives us free will...without it there is no such thing has choice or love.
God creates man. God has a sytem set up for man if they dont sin and a system set up if they do sin. Because of free will these systems have to be there. Man decides to sin. Now were in this system. Initially GOd wanted for man not to sin.

Where does evil come from? Evil wasnt there in the start..or was it? You say satan. Well Satan before he was Satan...was Lucifer....Angel of Light. Lucifer decided to go against God. There we have the first rebellion and in comes the first partaker of the opposite side of God that was there already. The whole system has two sides...good side bad side.

So you say...well God created evil then....so why must we be punished for indulging in it if its Gods creation...doesnt this make him hypocritical? Well thats not the proper way of looking at it. God created a universe in which evil had to exist because without one side there cant be another. It just has to be this way. However we could have avoided being in a sinful world by not taking apart in that evil. If Lucifer hadnt rebelled and we hadnt followed him into this sin....we would have been in a much more different world. One without sin. One in which God initially intended for us to live in.The bad side would still be there in this world....but we wouldnt have been apart of it as we are now. So now were in it ...so now God is working with us in this system!!!



Hope its not to confusing.....cause it sure as hell sounds like it is!!:D

[tomem]

Check this out:

http://www.pantheism.net

[agreenster]

If you agree with me that one should follow the practical example of jesus, and not the hocus-pocus religion, then why do you still subscribe to

1. jesus being god
2. lucifer/angels/satan
3. miracles
4. etc.

That was my point, that Jesus didnt give a rip about doctrine, angels, satan, history, etc. he cared mainly about forgiveness.

Now religion has caused everyone to get all philosophical, arguing whether or not god created evil. People tend to call something evil when it is the absense of progress, goodness, and health.

Good and evil is relative. Most people would agree that killing is evil, but i'd be willing to bet that 90% of Americans would like Osama's head on a pole. Evil exists in this world the same reaon everything else does: misfortunes, greed, chance, close-mindedness, and selfishness.

[mischief]

It's nice to have a scholar about.

In terms of Lucipher and Evil.

Lucipher, Angel of Light is otherwise referred to as G-d's accusor or questioner. Lucipher, in every instance was exposing what was always there. The ability to choose to fight the Path is part of who we are.



On the subject of Faith.

Faith has nothing to do with dogma. Faith is about focussing your whole self on the positive. It's about not getting caught up in the rather selfish act of thinking you're getting screwed by the universe. If you can see the beauty that comes from tragedy, adversity, suffering of all kinds as well as the things that are easy to Love, you have attained ultimate Faith. In this state you work more fully "in" the Universe. From either the metaphysical OR psycho-social this makes sense. If no one allows themself the indulgance of feeling victimized no one gets victimized and we can all move on with exploring and enjoying the trillions of cubic parsecs of stuff out there. If we don't do it as a whole species, we'll never do it.

I don't know about you but I'm getting a little Cabin crazy on this mudball.

[jefhatfield]

i believe as krossfyter does and takes the same even handed approach that he does...i am not the "crusader" type ;-)

hey, where is the gold hidden these days?, just kidding

i use macs and pc machines both and one of the groups of people i hang out with besides macrumors is a pc club i belong to in california

the president of the pc club, also a mac user since the beginning of apple like me, once told me, "isn't apple like a cult with steve jobs their jim jones' type leader and cupertino their cathedral?...just look at the building, it looks more like a church than a business"

my employee who is in a well known cult is nowhere as "zealous" as some mac people i run into sometimes

i wonder if there is a macs annonymous? ;-)

"hi, my name is jefhatfield, and i am a macaddict, (hello jef) and i can't get off my couch because my ibook is holding me hostage!"

[krossfyter]

agreenster....


Jesus awknowledged Satan. Thats why I believe there is a Satan. Not because some religion says so.

[jefhatfield]

some days, i think bill gates is the anti-christ

and some days, when steve jobs says something really stupid, i think who needs enemies like bill gates when steve jobs is at the helm of apple?

but then steve always seem to redeem himself briefly with a cool mac product

[davidc2182]

to mischief, thanks for the welcome albeit i've been here since the beginning of this conversation, but its nice to be welcomed by another member, I wouldnt say i'm a scholar, but i've got my own theories.

To krossfyter, as i am technically jewish, I of course do not believe the same ideals as you. I do not believe that man should be punished for anything he does by another man, except when you harm another man or yourself. For example if you kill someone, and they have a conscience, then you shold let them rot in jail to pay for their sin, but if you only beat someone once your debt to society is paid, it's up to G-d to punish you. Another example if your a smoker or you over eat its not up to doctors to save you, you consciously decided to smoke, drink, over eat, etc. You deal with the conscequences, basically its ok if we kill ourselves but not someone else! I do not believe that there is punishment in the afterlife because I believe in karma and reincarnation. And with reincarnation there comes a journey for each soul, which must experience everything in order to be whole. Life is an experience, it can be painful or joyful and it is your choice. The basic way i look at everything is that G-d creates man, G-d is outside of time and space and as such does not have to abide by the rules G-d created. So we are here to learn lessons, both good and evil, no matter how many trips we make to complete the journey, then we die, and we go to paradise as a balanced spiritual being. Now I've got major issues with any organized religion, I do not understand how someone can have faith in something they cannot physically sense, so they create an idol, figurehead, worship ideal, etc. Jesus, Mohammed, greek and roman g-ds, etc. The reason for my belief in G-d comes not from some religion and not from faith, it comes from a belief that we are not an accident, we didnt happen by chance, it was not amino acids bumping together at random that created everything. And I also do not believe we are alone in the universe, what a ginormous waste of space. :-) Anything that has a soul, which i believe only humans and intelligent mammals such as dolphins, etc, have. Are all children of G-d, all we have to do is realize it, and open ourselves up to the endless possibilities. Jesus even said the temple of G-d is not inside a house made of stone and wood but inside of each person. Why do you think many jewish and pre jewish artifacts and scrolls are housed in the vatican where no one can see them. They admit to having jewish artifacts but will not even display them for people to see, or give them back to the jews as should be done. Why are there tombs in egypt which were sealed from the inside which the government will not allow us to open? Why in the world is there a painting on the wall of a temple of some ancient civilization, i forget which, but the painting or drawing shows every different type of ethnic group on the planet, and its carbon dated to before people of these ethnic groups traversed the globe!

And about the nazi's I asked my professor from my introduction to World Religions class if hitler did what he did in the name of G-d and she said yes so there!

In the end no one should be offended by what i've said, if you are I offer you my sincerest apologies. Every person is entitled to their opinion, nothing is right or wrong, there should be no judement of our kin. We do not live in that world, we live in this world where everyone is in the grey area.

And here's a time theory for ya!
There is lineal time, circular time, and then there is my version. Think of a film projectors film reel. Time is wound up into the reel, and it plays through the projector in an endless cycle, each time things happen a little differently, what you see on the screen is the present, what played, the past, what is going to be played the future. so when you die and your frame is wound up touch other frames and your soul jumps to another life, it is simply walking through your frame and into another frame either in future or past. And then the system resets and the startup chime is heard (big bang!)

[krossfyter]

good thought there.


yep hitler did think he was doing Gods job just like osama...but obviously he wasnt.

that last reel analogy to life was sorta existentionalist. interesting but definitly existentionalist.


true...God is not bound by time and space...he is outside all the dimensions.

i believe that without a doubt. makes sense scientifically too.
newton and einstien both believed that the one who created this universe is not bound by the universal laws.... it cant be any other way..so they baisically say.

what this says is the basis for God in Judeo Christian view actually is supported by a valid scientific basis...which makes the other God/s in other beliefs not supported by this same scientic basis....which basically elimenates all this other religions except for Judiasm and Christianity...

reason being all the other religions hold thier God/s inside time and space...etc. etc.


I never knew that untill I studied it. However Im sure someone can argue this with some valid thoughts etc.. etc.

just thought i would share what i learned....and belive untill i can find a valid rebuttle for this.

[Ifeelbloated]

Wow, this has got to be the longest thread with the most views in these forums. I think we should all get together, I'll bring my guitar and we can all sing koombaya together. Seriously though, if any of you guys are familiar with my posts, I do kid around a lot. I think I need to reign it in a little. Anyway, you guys can all argue until you're blue in the face. It's all about faith. What do you have faith in? Where is the ultimate authority? Perhaps that's the problem or part of it. Human nature to search for the absolute authority and definitive answer. Hence, wars, crusades, jihad. Look in the mirror, it's our nature. No one has THE answer. They say they do but they don't. One argument is no better than the other. I think we're entering an age of an awakening. At least I hope. We're slowly moving out of superstition and myth that spooked and entertained us around the village campfire. But we need to be cautious, because in this society we suffer from a deep sense of displacement. The "fish out of water syndrome" as I call it. We no longer occupy a village where you know everyone and care about eachother. Commonalities elude us, hence forums like these. Mac lovers. We live in big megalopolises. Hec, we surf the net. We have drive-throughs. Do you even know your neighbor or the guy down the street? Emotional dissonance. What can fill it up?
Remember that Heavan's Gate cult in California? The folks who thought they were going to hop on a spaceship behind the Hale-Bopp comet? They committed mass suicide with their Nike sneakers on? As I recall, more than a few of them had Ph.D.'s. Think about that one.

[krossfyter]

They should have listened to Jesus. Then they wouldnt have died in vain.

You propose....that truth or what is right is relative with that post. How can this be?

If everything is relative...then surely someone killing you is fine if that is what they believe to be right.

You see what happens with moral realitivism? Kinda gets screwy all over the place.

[davidc2182]

Ifeelbloated, we are not arguing, just having a rational and logical discussion about things of a religious nature, thats all!

[davidc2182]

About the science bit krossfyter, if you think about it scientifically it is impossible to be G-d in human form or G-d's son, since he exists outside of our realm. Furthermore G-d can only work within science and nature, of course we do not know the boundaries of the universe but I think that many miracles were created by human energy, they focused their faith, like when the walls of jericho fell, or when the red sea split, or whichever other events happened.

[Ifeelbloated]

Well, I thought my post may have been interpreted as moral relativism. I'll try to be more concise. I meant that no faith has more validity or less validity than the other. They are all good in their best way. I don't have a problem with any teachings that promote care and compassion. That's ethics. We need ethics to function as a society. If someone does kill me, maybe it was wrong maybe it wasn't. Did I deserve it?
If there is a murderer on the loose then it's perfectly fine to hunt him down and lock him up or kill him. Or else he may kill you or me, a good citizen. Law abiding, productive, has good things to offer. A productive and gainfully employed member of society. He may kill your child. Someone you love or have great hopes for. We, us, have both decided yes, this must be done. For the good of everyone and our future. Then we must make more decisions for the betterment of us and our society. More rules, laws, ethics. If a priest runs down a toddler on a bicycle. What do we do? The man, the man must be held accountable for his actions. Was he drunk? Was it manslaughter? A terrible accident? We all have decided in agreement even before the event happened. The lawyers can argue if he was negligent or not, people will burn him in effigy or cry for his release. We can get into the murky area of politics there.
In the news a little while ago, a Yale professor was finally sentenced to prison. He is a convicted pedophile yet at his arraignment some of his colleagues were pleading for leniency! They argued he was a good geologist and a very smart man! I don't care if he craps gold bullions, he's going to the State Pen to meet Bubba his new cell mate!
Jesus was a great man, yes. His teachings are great. But I don't believe in the Resurrection. I cannot believe that someone can rise from the dead like he did or people claim he did. It's just not possible. If he could rise from the dead why couldn't he be immortal so he could teach mankind forever about right and wrong? Instead of just taking off and leaving it up to us to HOPEFULLY, get it right. I could imagine the disciples just looking at eachother and saying "Oh man, we're screwed". Granted, if you do rise from the dead like he did, believe me I will listen very carefully to what you have to say.

[mischief]

I was under the impression that the oldest texts use a title more akin to "luminary" than "kin" for Christ. In addition I was under the impression that Christ was also a priestly (I suppose Rabinnical) title.

The history I have pieced together puts JC as an Essene revivalist.

"Oh Birther, Father-Mother of the cosmos, You create all that moves in light.
Oh, Thou! The Breathing Life of all, Creator of the Shimmering Sound that touches us.
Respiration of all worlds, we hear you breathing-in and out-in silence.
Source of Sound in the roar and the whisper, in the breeze and the whirlwind, we hear your Name.
Radiant One: you shine within us, outside us-even darkness shines-when we remember.
Name of names our small identity unravels in you, you give it back as a lesson.
Wordless Action, Silent Potency- where ears and Eyes awaken, there heaven comes.
Oh Birther, Father/Mother of the cosmos."

Translation from the Erimaic,
The Lord's Prayer, condensed for generalized word meaning.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by davidc2182
About the science bit krossfyter, if you think about it scientifically it is impossible to be G-d in human form or G-d's son, since he exists outside of our realm. Furthermore G-d can only work within science and nature, of course we do not know the boundaries of the universe but I think that many miracles were created by human energy, they focused their faith, like when the walls of jericho fell, or when the red sea split, or whichever other events happened.


Well not exactly...you are missing an important concept, i believe....

Since God is God and He can do whatever he wants....He can surely be in human form. The trinity...

what can exist in gasous form...liquid form...and a solid?
different states but one substance.

what has 6 sides but all the sides make up a whole object?

My uncle.....While he is my uncle he can also be someones father and someones son. Do you see what im getting at here?



God does exist outside of our realm..right!...Since God is God he can also exist inside our realm. Why limit God to one realm or just outside it? God is inter and multi dimensional.

In order for us humans to get out of the mess were in one has to come and walk in our shoes (a model) and go through all that we go through in order to save us...

I learned about incarnation when I kept a salt water aquarium. Management of a marine aquarium, I discovered, is no easy task. I had to run a portable chemical laboratory to monitor the nitrate levels and the ammonia content. i pumped in vitamins and anitbiotics and sulfa drugs and enough enzymes to make a rock grow...I filtered the water through glass fibers and charcoal and exposed it to unltraviolet light. you would think in view of all the energy expended on thier behalf that my fish would at least be grateful...not so...everytime my shadow loomed above the tank they dove for cover into the nearest shell. they showed me one "emotion" only...fear. although I opened the lid and dropped in food on a regular schedule, three times a day, they responded to each visit as a sure sign of my designs to torture them. i could not convince them of my true concern. to my fish i was deity... i was too lage for them my actions too incomprehensible. my act of mercy they saw as cruelty my attempts at healing they viewed as destruction. to change thier perception i began to see would require a form of incarnation. i would have to become a fish and speak to them in a lanquage they could understand. a human being becoming a fish is nothing compared to God becoming entering humanity as a baby (human form)..


dig it!

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by Ifeelbloated
Well, I thought my post may have been interpreted as moral relativism. I'll try to be more concise. I meant that no faith has more validity or less validity than the other. They are all good in their best way. I don't have a problem with any teachings that promote care and compassion. That's ethics. We need ethics to function as a society. If someone does kill me, maybe it was wrong maybe it wasn't. Did I deserve it?
If there is a murderer on the loose then it's perfectly fine to hunt him down and lock him up or kill him. Or else he may kill you or me, a good citizen. Law abiding, productive, has good things to offer. A productive and gainfully employed member of society. He may kill your child. Someone you love or have great hopes for. We, us, have both decided yes, this must be done. For the good of everyone and our future. Then we must make more decisions for the betterment of us and our society. More rules, laws, ethics. If a priest runs down a toddler on a bicycle. What do we do? The man, the man must be held accountable for his actions. Was he drunk? Was it manslaughter? A terrible accident? We all have decided in agreement even before the event happened. The lawyers can argue if he was negligent or not, people will burn him in effigy or cry for his release. We can get into the murky area of politics there.
In the news a little while ago, a Yale professor was finally sentenced to prison. He is a convicted pedophile yet at his arraignment some of his colleagues were pleading for leniency! They argued he was a good geologist and a very smart man! I don't care if he craps gold bullions, he's going to the State Pen to meet Bubba his new cell mate!
Jesus was a great man, yes. His teachings are great. But I don't believe in the Resurrection. I cannot believe that someone can rise from the dead like he did or people claim he did. It's just not possible. If he could rise from the dead why couldn't he be immortal so he could teach mankind forever about right and wrong? Instead of just taking off and leaving it up to us to HOPEFULLY, get it right. I could imagine the disciples just looking at eachother and saying "Oh man, we're screwed". Granted, if you do rise from the dead like he did, believe me I will listen very carefully to what you have to say.


this is colorful.

Okay I hear ya in the law part. I can dig it.
...the ressurrection part..

i too before i gave my life to Chirst...often thought... why didnt Jesus just stay here and teach us forever? Im suppose to believe something that I cant see before my eyes?
however...i came to undersand that God has the perfect plan he is God after all. The way it was done was the only way it could be done. If Jesus would have stayed...then we would never practice faith...and get better at it. Faith is important. Posssibly this is a good reason why God had it done this way...Jesus not staying behind. Im sure there are other good reasons that ellude me at the moment.

dig it!

[jefhatfield]

believing in something one cannot see could be called blind faith

and that it is...but without faith which is blind anyway, we cannot find happiness

to think that we humans are the highest thing in the universe is too scary to imagine

[krossfyter]

Actually I dont think its blind.


God wants us to use all our heart mind and soul.


God gives directions on how to navigate this world. Maybe initially one is blind before accepting him.

Faith is the evidence of things unseen.

[britboy]

Originally posted by jefhatfield

hey, where is the gold hidden these days?


well, depending on what theory you subscribe to, the real treasure that the 'crusaders' were looking for is now hidden in a vault beneath Rosslyn Church in scotland.

[mischief]

It's in Nova Scotia. It went with the Scotts loyalists to Canada. Besides, it's not about the Gold.........it's about the artifacts of lost technology. Talk to the Ethiopians about the Downlink though. Sheba got the good stuff.

[britboy]

yup. Sheba got the good stuff and passed it on to solomon (hence the fame and fortune associated with him).

Just out of interest, which books are you refering to?

[mischief]

Sheba and Solomon had a Son who bailed out of Israel with the Ark......bailed to Sheba's homeland: Ethiopia. The interesting thing about the Ark is: it couldn't be siezed unless it wanted to be siezed. It had a rather nasty history of zapping people it didn't like. Funny thing that: the object that embodied humanity's contract with the Force wacking people at random.

The Books:

Holy Blood, Holy Grail.

(this is an excellent research piece about the Templars and Judaic history. Though the Authors are on a bit of a power trip.)



The Sign and the Seal.

(Follows and details the Artifacts including the Ark)



Genisis.

(Follows the ties between Essene faith and Egyptian polytheism)



Supplemental:

Worlds in Collision by Immanuel Velikovski

(Out of print. Veikcovski was a contemporary of Einstein who murdered his career with this book which describes a cycle of Cataclisms recorded in the world's oral histories. He rants a bit but the result is compelling.)


Memnoch the Devil by Anne Rice

(Not research by any means, but a fresh take on Lucipher and his role in the universe)

[britboy]

thanks for the names. Could just make for interesting reading.

[davidc2182]

again this is where our opinions diverge, I do not believe G-d directly affects the universe, or that G-d has a plan for it, to think this would eliminate the idea of free will. Without free will we are simply animals following instinct, which we are not. To the idea of faith i say its fine and dandy for those who have it. My belief again comes from science, probability, and statistics. Again if there were a specific true faith and G-d directly affected the universe G-d would be punishing people such as hitler and bin laden, because this does not happen it is proof that free will exists, and that there is no set plan for things. Then there comes the saying G-d knows everything, if it is true that G-d created the universe and via the Jewish faith, we were given free will, and non-direct interference, then how does one explain things? how is it explained that G-d spoke to Adam and Eve? Well to begin everyone must understand that when the bible speaks of creation, when a day has passed it does not mean a day, it just signifies a period of time in which something happened. Because we all know dinosaurs were real even tho its not in the bible. So as things were being created the rules were not yet set so technically the rules of time and space didnt hold true. OK how did G-d speak to Adam and Eve, ok finally humans evolve and as an experiment between lucifer and G-d they are given free will. Of course humans F! it up and we get kicked out! ok now enter the arena of quantum theory, so for every choice a subdimension is produced, with the billions of choices being made by billions of people, trillions of subdimensions form. How does G-d know everything? because G-d exists outside of everything and is watching through the "Finder" on his Mac! In order to enter through the finder G-d would abandon all power and immortality, and have to abide by the rules G-d created for this universe. That is the only way it would follow suit with G-d making sense through religion which agrees with science, again its my personal theory. And someone said something about the ark? ok first of all the ark is being held by the vatican. It did not have a temper, rule of thumb was if you were not holy enough to touch it you die. However it could easily be carried because metal rungs were built onto it, and it could be picked up by sliding metal poles through the rungs to lift it. Oh and a sidenote about the tablets holding the commandments, forged by the fire of heaven, umm, they were clear and glowed, and when you turned them around the text was always readable even though the carving was straight through the tablets. Thats how its written anyway! Opinon a function of free will :-) ah well i'm done for now!

[oldMac]

Interesting dialogue.

Seems to me that both the Christians and Atheists/Agnostics can both be pretty damned offensive at times.

Nothing like a Christian who tries to force people into Christianity or an Atheist who believes he's simply smarter than everyone else. :)

[zed]

and i dont know if i can do it........... o no ive said tooo much... havent said enough....

I was raised southern baptist (if you can believe that), and Im still a Christian at heart. I believe in a personal God.... no so much a religion but a God, although I would lean towards Christianity.

As for my inner-most feelings.......... those are personal, as most people's should be.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by oldMac
Interesting dialogue.

Seems to me that both the Christians and Atheists/Agnostics can both be pretty damned offensive at times.

Nothing like a Christian who tries to force people into Christianity or an Atheist who believes he's simply smarter than everyone else. :)

are you saying im forcing my views? if so how? i just want to make sure im understanding you thats all.

:)

[krossfyter]

davidc2182

i respect that.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by krossfyter


are you saying im forcing my views? of so how? i just want to make sure im understanding you thats all.

:)

i have an employee who belongs to a cult...now that is forced views

krossfyter is expressing his opinion and clarifying any points people bring up on certain topics and the same goes with davidc2182

this is a good thread and i am glad that arn and blakespot put this new general discussion on here so this all wouldn't be under article discussion

[mischief]

I can assure you the Catholic church has NEVER been in posession of the Relics from Solomon's temple. They were removed by Templars, not Catholic crusaders.

The Ark was, as you say not so much tempermental as simply very risky to be around. The "zapping people at random" comment covers several instances where one or several of those charged with it's care were "deemed unworthy" in the most dramatic way possible.

The structure and transportation: The Arc was a wood box, lined on all surfaces with gold leaf, approximately one metre by one metre by two metres. The metal rings were used specifically with wooden poles and a very specific costume as shielding. From the description the thing sounded like a small microwave to-orbit tranciever powered by the tablets. When I say small I'm referring to size. The thing had rediculous residual radiation and a high incidence of arcing discharge.

The whole description of the thing sounds like a rather exotic and ingenious version of a "scalar" EM device of the like built by Tesla or similar to the HAARP and OTH radar installations and Soviet "kamchatka device".

The Ark is also described with accompanying devices for construction that support this theory.

Now that I've alarmed the conspiracy theorists I'll get back to Macs. Cheers! :D

[agreenster]

Im beginning to be sorry I ever started this thread. Its been great, dont get m wrong, but its forming into the typical cliche'd mess about philisophy, culture, history, bigotry, 'I'm right's' and 'you're wrong's' (which everyone is guilty of on some scale, myself included), and just general mouth-flapping.

Bottom line is:

I think the most honest thing anyone can ever say about religion is this:

I don't know, I just don't know.


What more can you say? If you say you know the truth, there is always someone to tell you that you are wrong, and many/MOST cases, you probably are. Everything is relative, I dont care what you say. There are no absolute truths. None. The only thing definite in my mind is that love, forgiveness, and respect are the most important things in the world---religion be damned.

[mischief]

Originally posted by agreenster

Bottom line is:

I think the most honest thing anyone can ever say about religion is this:

I don't know, I just don't know.


.......................Everything is relative, I dont care what you say. There are no absolute truths. None. The only thing definite in my mind is that love, forgiveness, and respect are the most important things in the world---religion be damned.

Yep. We just like debating the semantics. Christianity gets the most attention because it has the most gaps in it's story. I haven't even gotten into the whole "sons of Abraham must live as one family" rant.;)

[krossfyter]

why must people get offended. were just talking here. its cool. really.
no need to treat this topic with fear. whats there to worry about if you yourself know your own views and hold to them. is one afraid of being wrong? is that why people have a heartburn over conversations about religion? once again someone has said or alluded to everything being relative..(agreenster..i believe) and respectfully i say that everthing cant be relative because then there cant be any truth. its as simple as that. there is a black and there is a white....there are grays also. go ahead and believe what you want and decide for yourslef what is black and what is white etc. etc. but its illogical to believe there are not blacks and no white (by saying that there then cant be any greys).
there are moral definites (absolutes)...
if i throw a ball up in the air it will come back down due to the force of gravity. this is a physical force that is an absolute....we know its there....we cant even see it with our naked eye. why argue that there are no moral forces pulling us? because we cant see um? i challenge you to rethink that falicy in logic. i understand if you dont want to believe something as narrow and fine tuned as the Concept of one savior and one truth...but that doesnt mean one cant give up on logic.

i respect everyone on here and i have never been offended by what anyone has said no matter how far away from my view they are. i encourage, read and welcome all points of view and thoughts.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by mischief


Christianity gets the most attention because it has the most gaps in it's story.


list the gaps that you talk about?

make sure these "gaps" are not just mis understanding of the text.
i know a lot of people that say "the bible has so many contradictions"...etc. etc. but most of these people misinterpret or dont understand the scripture. you have to take the bible in as a whole not take little words or phrases out of context. one must consider the context.

somtimes what appears to be a gap can be closed upon futher insepction and understanding. i wont are that there are i never see any gaps in the bible....but i assure you i know its due to my lack of understanding.

[mischief]

Gaps as a historical document or even as a translation. The accounts of several Apostles are missing and many dates and events were altered, added or eliminated.

This has NO effect on the relevance of the Christian faith. Faith is Faith, period. As a belief system, it's one of the most thoroughly designed and tested products in History. As a historical document, it's the National Inquirer.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by mischief
Gaps as a historical document or even as a translation. The accounts of several Apostles are missing and many dates and events were altered, added or eliminated.

This has NO effect on the relevance of the Christian faith. Faith is Faith, period. As a belief system, it's one of the most thoroughly designed and tested products in History. As a historical document, it's the National Inquirer.



okay. i hear ya there. i myself wonder why on these. your right faith wise it is not a problem. as a historical document its better then anything man has written.

[mischief]

Ever wondered how "rational" minds came up with the "big bang" theory?

I think they liked it because it made the universe finite and was familiar to their victorian minds. I've noticed that physicists are incredibly stubborn about getting away from 4000 year old theories and just working with what's been observed.

Fight hard enough against entreanched Dogma and you create one just as entreanched with nearly identical beliefs. This has nothing to do with truth and everything to do with ego. Most physicists woud die before saying "I really don't know."

I have always believed that some essence of both arguments are true. The one thing I disagree with in BOTH is a finite universe. It's a contradictory arguement in 2 words. By definition a Universe is INFINITE. 4000 years of philosophy and the Fire Monkey is still breaking rocks looking for Pixie Dust.:p

[Gelfin]

Originally posted by mischief
Yep. We just like debating the semantics. Christianity gets the most attention because it has the most gaps in it's story. I haven't even gotten into the whole "sons of Abraham must live as one family" rant.;)

Oh, I don't know about this. I don't think Christianity has any more holes in it than any other belief system. Perhaps we just encounter more people in the US who insist that the holes don't exist.

Personally, I was raised Christian, but always had this little secret shame because I wasn't having these mystic, life-transforming experiences, the blissful sense of communion with the almighty and so forth that everyone else swore they had on a regular basis (I had a grandmother who claimed God spoke to her, literally). And it's not like I didn't try or lacked sincerety, but it was like when somebody says they hear a noise, and you start listening really closely, and then you think maybe you hear something, but you're not sure you're not just imagining what it would be like if you were hearing whatever it is. It took me a little longer than I would want to admit to conclude that this was probably just an "emperor's new clothes" phenomenon, and that if I was claiming to have these experiences so that people wouldn't know God had jilted me, then it's pretty likely that I'm not alone in that.

So I'm now an atheist/agnostic. I might be wrong, but you can't say I didn't give God a fair shot, and He didn't return my calls, so to speak. On a broader scale, I'm a skeptic. Skepticism gets a bad rap. Skeptics are pictured as being like the two old hecklers in the balcony on the Muppet Show. Personally, I've found that there's enough beauty and wonder in the so-called "mundane" universe that I really don't feel the need to invent things to spice it up.

Don't get me wrong. I recognize that religion can do very good things in some people's lives. I have utmost respect for the likes of Mother Theresa or Buddhist monks who seriously walk the talk. But I don't see that often. If religion leads people to be better humans than they would be without it, then yay for religion. Personally, I think I'm a better person without it. A set of arbitrary rules handed down from on high has less impact on me than a rational system of ethics based on tangible consequences and a fundamental respect and empathy for other individuals. That may not be the case for everyone.

But the one thing I really hate is to see cases where religion (or lack thereof) makes people worse off and more meanspirited than the alternative. People have this nasty instinctive drive to categorize themselves in groups and to automatically assume that being in the group makes one better than being out of the group. Instead of using our rational, thinking brains to fight this irrational tendency, we rationalize, and the result is discrimination and hate. As a matter of principle, I reject the notion that membership in a group has any effect whatsoever on the value of an individual in himself.

[mischief]

-Gelfin,

One thing I've noticed is that anxiety gets you what you DON'T want and praying for divine intervention doesn't get you jack if you don't do the work yourself. That is: there are no easy solutions. You may as well ask Arn to set your Posts to 2k so you can have an Avatar. The sysop has better things to do than solve our grievances for us.

To sum up: Praying to G-d or whomever for world peace is useless if it isn't a meditation on what YOU can do. Be civil, smile at a Bum to brighten his day, laugh randomly for the sheer joy of being and above all......let the little stuff go. We CAN have this goal if we all get a life and play nice. 3000 year old grudges are intollerably stupid. Nationalism and worrying about "cultural degradation" is childish and only shows how little we've learned in more than 10,000 years of playing Civilization. Sometimes I understand stories like Babylon.......It's like Arn clearing out the troll posts.......Reality gets sick of it after a while.

[agreenster]

Everything is still relative.

You take an 'absolute' truth, and test it one time--and BAM its instantly relative. 'Absolute truths' should be used as guidelines for a relative situation. Jesus gave us some of those--forgiveness, love, respect.

I wish you could have taken a class I took about the new testament. It really changed my views on things. Let me give you an example:

Jesus never said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and The Life." That was recorded 1000BC by the greeks, who claimed that one of their fertility goddesses said this. So, 1300 years later, when the Apostles were trying to convert the Greeks to christianity, they wrote the Gospel According to John, and included the passage "I am the way, the truth and the life" as spoken by Jesus. This helped to convince the greeks that Jesus was a diety. There was more to their writing then just fact telling. Dont forget, history was recorded differently back then. It wasnt rooted in fact, but perception. Many of Jesus' sayings are more of the Apostles perceptions. Paul didnt even know Jesus, yet he was the one who spread the gospel more than anyone. Doesnt that make you wonder? And dont tell me that he 'met' Jesus on the road to Damascus. Thats just more hocus pocus superstition that no one in their right mind should believe in. Its literature--its fiction.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by agreenster
Everything is still relative.

You take an 'absolute' truth, and test it one time--and BAM its instantly relative. 'Absolute truths' should be used as guidelines for a relative situation. Jesus gave us some of those--forgiveness, love, respect.

I wish you could have taken a class I took about the new testament. It really changed my views on things. Let me give you an example:

Jesus never said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and The Life." That was recorded 1000BC by the greeks, who claimed that one of their fertility goddesses said this. So, 1300 years later, when the Apostles were trying to convert the Greeks to christianity, they wrote the Gospel According to John, and included the passage "I am the way, the truth and the life" as spoken by Jesus. This helped to convince the greeks that Jesus was a diety. There was more to their writing then just fact telling. Dont forget, history was recorded differently back then. It wasnt rooted in fact, but perception. Many of Jesus' sayings are more of the Apostles perceptions. Paul didnt even know Jesus, yet he was the one who spread the gospel more than anyone. Doesnt that make you wonder? And dont tell me that he 'met' Jesus on the road to Damascus. Thats just more hocus pocus superstition that no one in their right mind should believe in. Its literature--its fiction.

jesus is god to me, not just lord, not just jehovah, or any other watered down interpretation

he is also not just a prophet, mystic, or avatar

anyone with that much love and forgiveness is not human...anyone who rose from the dead and showed himself to at least 500 witnesses, many of them not his believers, did something divine...jimmy swaggart is not christ, the christian right is not christ, and christ is not just a son of god or a lord...he is simply and humbly god

this sounds crazy, but if you were god and you wanted to make a statement, what good would it do to blow up the earth? why not show the greatness in god by having compassion and hanging out with the throw away people of society and give them comfort...mother theresa saw this and took christ's footsteps

that's my 2 cents

[krossfyter]

agreenster...

i respectfully disagree with what you said about realtivity and Jesus.

I have heard that argument before about the diety of Jesus. One can find a lot of info all over the place denying the Christ in Christ....All that is Jesus. Nothings surprising.. By the way what new testament class are you talking specifically and whos the proffesor and where is it at...and who funds it and supports it?

I hold to all the views of C.S. Lewis about Christ. I have searched high and low on both sides and found that C.S. Lewis's ideas and views are the most profound, rational, logical and sound.... with uncanny and amazing splendor and accuracy.


So if Jesus wasnt not claiming to be God why was he crucified at all? This is your question to answer agreenster...since you are dealing with this diety topic of Christ...im sure you have an argument agains that. I just want to see which one it is...cause I know of a few that are cheesy but i want to see if you can come up with a better one.

[rainman::|:|]

Well... I'm a newbie but I can't resist the chance to offend or piss people off. So I'll say it. I'm a witch. Full, freestyle Wiccan. My impressions of God are nothing like the Christian version; I'm almost Taoist as far as God (or the Goddess) being an all-encompassing force. None of this Jesus Sinner Brimstone God-is-such-an-egotist-that-he-demands-worship crap for me. I believe to honnor the Goddess, one must only honor what She has given us, in the form of our bodies, minds, and of course the Earth. I do believe in spellcasting (now i'm loosing people aren't i)... Not that Buffy the Vampire Slayer crap where there's smoke and magic powder and junk... But using the inherent force of the Goddess inside onesself to positively affect something. One might, for instance, do a spell for the healing of a friend-- it would use my positive energy to add to their life force, karma as some call it. Spellcasting can also be negative, but I won't go there. It's bad for everyone.

But more to the point... I believe in soul reincarnation, that your accumulated karma over many many lifetimes determines the fate of the soul. Some people in my way of thinking (and I'm not just talking about stoners here, I swear...) believe you are reincarnated until your karma is pure good, as in you go on a mass-murdering rampage, and you're gonna have some very hard lifes ahead of you to work it off. I cannot fathom that, with the state of the world as it is now... I would think as souls continually came closer to perfection, the world would be a better place, not worse? Now we've got stem-cell research and modern warfare and Microsoft, that can't be right...

Okay enough of that. see? this is why I don't talk much [ever]...

---edit
Okay I just reread that after posting it, and I had no idea how judgemental that sounded... Referring to Jesus as 'all that crap' wasn't the best choice of words... I'm certainly not putting anyone's religion down, that's totally against Wiccanism. But that's how I see it. It confuses me to hear people so zealous about Jesus Christ this, and Jesus Christ that. Personally, I think that the soul of Jesus is an enlightened one... The same one that was Buddah, and Krishna, etc etc... If you look at the big name human/god teachers in religion, I think they make up sides of the same being. Jesus taught discipline. Krishna taught playfulness. Buddah taught inner reflection. To me, taking any of these teachings by itself can be dangerous. But put them together, and wow! Talk about well rounded. I think this particular teacher's soul is the Goddess's way of saying "Look here, you might find this useful" over and over again. They all played a pivotal role in shaping their society. But I can't imagine, IMHO, that this teacher wants to be regarded as God incarnate. Anyway I digress. My point is, to each his own. The Wiccan statement is, "An it harm none, do as ye will" meaning as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, directly or indirectly, go ahead.
I'm just a little hurt by a Christian right now... My partner's mother seems to think Wicca is spelled s-a-t-a-n, and she has accused me of leading him away from the Catholic church. yeah, considering he stopped going 10 years before I met him. So I view her acts as hurtful, therefore I cannot fully respect the beliefs that lead to that.
Okay this post is going on 10 pages... I got all hopped up on cold medicine and just started ranting. I better get to bed before I have my own little trip through the cosmos ;)

Blessed be,
paul

[oldMac]

Those Muppet guys in the balcony were funny. :)

Krossfyter, I wasn't referring to you in any way with regards to Christians who try to force their religion on people. I was just making a general comment.

anyone with that much love and forgiveness is not human...anyone who rose from the dead and showed himself to at least 500 witnesses, many of them not his believers, did something divine...jimmy swaggart is not christ, the christian right is not christ, and christ is not just a son of god or a lord...he is simply and humbly god

Very well-spoken, Jef.

[jefhatfield]

---edit
Okay I just reread that after posting it, and I had no idea how judgemental that sounded... Referring to Jesus as 'all that crap' wasn't the best choice of words... I'm certainly not putting anyone's religion down, that's totally against Wiccanism. But that's how I see it. It confuses me to hear people so zealous about Jesus Christ this, and Jesus Christ that. Personally, I think that the soul of Jesus is an enlightened one... The same one that was Buddah, and Krishna, etc etc... If you look at the big name human/god teachers in religion, I think they make up sides of the same being. Jesus taught discipline. Krishna taught playfulness. Buddah taught inner reflection. To me, taking any of these teachings by itself can be dangerous. But put them together, and wow! Talk about well rounded. I think this particular teacher's soul is the Goddess's way of saying "Look here, you might find this useful" over and over again. They all played a pivotal role in shaping their society. But I can't imagine, IMHO, that this teacher wants to be regarded as God incarnate. Anyway I digress. My point is, to each his own. The Wiccan statement is, "An it harm none, do as ye will" meaning as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, directly or indirectly, go ahead.
I'm just a little hurt by a Christian right now... My partner's mother seems to think Wicca is spelled s-a-t-a-n, and she has accused me of leading him away from the Catholic church. yeah, considering he stopped going 10 years before I met him. So I view her acts as hurtful, therefore I cannot fully respect the beliefs that lead to that.
Okay this post is going on 10 pages... I got all hopped up on cold medicine and just started ranting. I better get to bed before I have my own little trip through the cosmos ;)

Blessed be,
paul [/B][/QUOTE]

people who don't understand others' beliefs, especially wicca, are going to follow a negative hollywood stereotype and give you flak

being a christian, these days, make some believe i belong to a cult by the view of the majority in this country (usa)...there are however many cults built around the term christian or christ but i am not one of them and i suffer for it like you have believing in wicca

like i mentioned, my employee belongs to a cult and his money goes to it disproportionately in my view but to the average person, i get mixed up with him as being in the same lot because we both believe in christ...except in the end many of his church end up with therapists in ritual abuse treatment

[davidc2182]

to mischief who in the blue hell are the templars? it sounds like something out of starcraft! and to krossfyter there is a better historical document than the new testament if thats what your referring to, its the old testament!

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by davidc2182
to mischief who in the blue hell are the templars? it sounds like something out of starcraft! and to krossfyter there is a better historical document than the new testament if thats what your referring to, its the old testament!

i dont think i was arguing that the new testament was a better historical document then the old testament... i would never do that. i would never do the opposite either. i think its riduculous because both hold true to each other. Jesus Christ was the prophetic fullfillment of the old testament...etc. etc. (im sure you disagree).



now if your just telling me this and making a statement ...then disregard this.

[tadpole]

I was born and rasied orthodox Buddhist, I converted to Catholicism and am a practicing Catholic. Why I converted is a personal matter, it took many years of anguish and digging around in monastery libraries. To the protties out there, you suck! I went through high school having been told by stupid protties that I was going to burn in hell because I didn't repent. Buddhism is a beautiful philosphy, but it was never meant to be a religion. Oh sure, some wanker is going to challenge me on that, because they're some born again Buddhist hippie, guys, alls I have to say is that Buddhism is genetic, I was raised in it like all good little traditional asian kids, so don't test me. As for protties, fellas, the bible was wriitten by the Mother Church, we really get a kick out of it that you all take it literally.

I am a Catholic with a strong Buddhist outlook. The two compliment each other quite well. Please, NO ONE is going to burn in hell! Radical Protties have to stop scaring people like that! Prosetylizing and exhorting so called non believers doesn't do anyone anygood. Why the heck would you want someone to convert to your religion that is so weak of character that mere threats forced them to bend backwards for you? Wouldn't you want free thinkers? I had a Ochem prof here at school who would preach to us the virtues of his ass backwards protestantism instead of teaching Ochem, he was a second rate professor from a third rate school, Wheaton College, that we got to teach because he wanted to dabble his hands in real research, in all actuality, for a guy with a Ph.D. he's no more sensible than a undergrad and he does the bitchwork of an undergrad.

I'm not antiprotestant, some of my very good friends are Lutheran....actually those guys are very close to Catholicism anyway:-) But everytime some lame brained prottie wanker tells some of my friends or me that we're going to Hell, my blood boils, every time one fo those ignorant jackasses tell us that we Catholic/Orthodox folks don't understand the bible, that we're heretics, that we don't have faith and that faith alone without deeds is good enough to gain salvation, that they're plain outright holier and more pious than us, I just want to flush them down the john with my morning bizness.

[evildead]

you guys are still talking about this....

Religion has caused the most pain, suffering, war, murder, division of peoples, intolerance, hate, and every thing else that is wrong with the human race, out of all the man-made institutions.

Religion has some good points but there is no point in arguing who's invisible man you pray to is the best.

And if your going to talk about history.. you have to talk about all history. The bad and the good. People tend to only remember what they want to remember and accept historical facts that all ready backup what they 'Know' to be truth.

-evildead

[tadpole]

I disagree.

The Greed of Humanity causes war. Humanity bends the message to fit its own deeds.


To the Wiccan, seems you cooked up your own hodge podge of what to believe and what no to believe. Its cool by me, but please research the very idea of reincarnation. As for your condemnation of the Christian God as an egoist....may be for whacked protties, but not the case for the Church. Btw, in case you don't research reincarnation and continue on your ignorant crusade, the Hindu/Buddhist idea is that you are selfless, your selfworship has no place.


Hindusism, Buddhism, Islam, and Christianity all had a common message: Peace, Love, Compassion and open your ****ING MIND! Cuz the universe or Creator never meant for anyone to be a dumbass and blindly accept the faith of others, you, yourself must come to your own peace with the world. Seems to me that those who accept religion without question have wasted the very gift of Sentience.


The problem I have with cults....they have no prior history or tradition, many of the nutcases i meet of the cult vegatative variety have taken pieces from many different faiths and wove them into a inconsistent and often contradictory pseudophilosphy. Often times, these are poorly educated people pretend to understand the pieces that comprise their quackery however it is also these pretenders who lead other ill read people to their early demise: David Koresh, etc.


Yes, religion is a scaffolding for a society, but it also can evolve with a society as it matures....read Durkheim.


-Tadpole

[krossfyter]

tadpole... i guess to you im a prottie.


well..for me its not about religion, traditon, ritual or whatever man creates.

its about following Jesus Christ....to my death. its not about going to church or anything like that (mind you...going to church is how we learn).

i dont care about religion be it organized or disorganized..i dont give a flying flip about what the catholics say or the protestants... i just care about what Jesus says. Both the protestants and catholics have things screwed up in them and both are good at things...why? because its made up of men....falible men.

now ..mind you.. i usually dont agree with the catholosicsm side in some major areas...one being that tradition is more important (or the same) as the word of God...or the whole Mother Mary thing.

if thats what you believe...fine...rock on...so as long as you never forsake the Lord.


but religion is a big joke and i wish people will understand the sepration between religon and God.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by evildead
you guys are still talking about this....

Religion has caused the most pain, suffering, war, murder, division of peoples, intolerance, hate, and every thing else that is wrong with the human race, out of all the man-made institutions.

Religion has some good points but there is no point in arguing who's invisible man you pray to is the best.

And if your going to talk about history.. you have to talk about all history. The bad and the good. People tend to only remember what they want to remember and accept historical facts that all ready backup what they 'Know' to be truth.

-evildead


evil period is the cause of so much malice, war and bickering...not some religion. the whole argument of religion being the cause of the worlds problems is just a scapegoat for the real issue.

[evildead]

All Religions are cults... or at least they were at some point in history. When they first got started there was some other Religion or religion like institution in place. the new comers were shunned and often killed. Then if the new "cult" lasts for a while and more members join they become a full fledged religion with history and everything. Take for example the Mormons. They got pushed out of every state they came to until they found Utah (no one was there to complain) Many churches sill preach intolerance of them but over all they have been accepted as a real religion. They were once a cult and now they are one of the richest and most powerful churches in The United states.

[krossfyter]

define "cult".

[evildead]

When I say cult i mean a small group of religious out casts. The modern Amerian deff of a cult may be a little diffrent. Basicly like you said before about a lack of history. With out history your a cult. If you sick arround a while... you have history... then your not a cult anymore... or your too pwoerfull to be an outcast.

[krossfyter]

well then you believe the definition of the word "cult" is relative.


i wasnt arguing history. im not sure why people are bringing this up. did i say something about history that i missed?

[evildead]

you weren't the one that was talking about history.. that was some one else, sorry.

as for you comment "the whole argument of religion being the cause of the worlds problems is just a scapegoat for the real issue."

Your right and wrong. I agree that not all pain is caused by religion... its all caused by man. Man just tends to use religion as a scapegoat and justification for his acts. I don't think that religion its self causes all problems. With out religion, People would probably just find some other way to justify them selves and act badly.

[krossfyter]

okay cool evildead.

:D

[davidc2182]

i was just stating it but about Jesus being the fullfillment of the old testament I have to disagree with you not for myself but on behalf of all the jews. For us when the messiah comes he would not be G-d, a mere man like moses but one who was wise in the mystic ways and perform miracles to prove it. After such a 3rd temple of solomon would be constructed an extremely long period of peace would happen in addition to everyone forming the same belief systems and the worthy dead rising to walk the earth during this period of peace in addition to human lifespans being lengthened significantly! but all of this would occur only occur after the great war, or WW3 where we would fight an evil nation and their leader and the messiah would herald the defeat of the nation and end the war, also the line of solomon would be restored with new kings ,etc. this is all in the mysticism, and oral tradition of the jews, in addition to some being in the old testament.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by krossfyter
define "cult".

ultimate goal...your wallet

or in a more clever tactic

ultimate goal...your loyalty, which leads to your wallet, eventually

or they get your loyalty to get others if you don't have money so the cult could get to their wallets

history will teach us that some religious institutions like the catholics and protestants played this game too

but for the most part the catholics and protestants are no longer after your wallet

it is my belief that tradition helps build institutionalism which, hopefully builds a system of accountability

this is how our accredited schools keep their noses clean...with a system and a system of accountability

a brain surgeon goes to medical school so he can learn how to treat you if needed

a lawyer spent many years in school so if you need them, they can help you if you call on them

a good pastor has training too because your soul is no less important than your brains or your legal protection...i argue that your soul is more important...even on this plane

so therefore, cults after you wallet, also usually have the annoying aspect of having untrained leaders and pastors which shows they don't care about your soul...just your wallet

...just crank out untrained pastors, build up churches anywhere, and grab dem wallets and make off with all the booty you can

btw...if you want to be any sort of minister, go to seminary school because working on a soul is no less important than cutting into someone's brain if you are a brain surgeon

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by davidc2182
i was just stating it but about Jesus being the fullfillment of the old testament I have to disagree with you not for myself but on behalf of all the jews. For us when the messiah comes he would not be G-d, a mere man like moses but one who was wise in the mystic ways and perform miracles to prove it. After such a 3rd temple of solomon would be constructed an extremely long period of peace would happen in addition to everyone forming the same belief systems and the worthy dead rising to walk the earth during this period of peace in addition to human lifespans being lengthened significantly! but all of this would occur only occur after the great war, or WW3 where we would fight an evil nation and their leader and the messiah would herald the defeat of the nation and end the war, also the line of solomon would be restored with new kings ,etc. this is all in the mysticism, and oral tradition of the jews, in addition to some being in the old testament.

yes i do know that the jews are still waiting for thier messiah.


:)

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by davidc2182
i was just stating it but about Jesus being the fullfillment of the old testament I have to disagree with you not for myself but on behalf of all the jews. For us when the messiah comes he would not be G-d, a mere man like moses but one who was wise in the mystic ways and perform miracles to prove it. After such a 3rd temple of solomon would be constructed an extremely long period of peace would happen in addition to everyone forming the same belief systems and the worthy dead rising to walk the earth during this period of peace in addition to human lifespans being lengthened significantly! but all of this would occur only occur after the great war, or WW3 where we would fight an evil nation and their leader and the messiah would herald the defeat of the nation and end the war, also the line of solomon would be restored with new kings ,etc. this is all in the mysticism, and oral tradition of the jews, in addition to some being in the old testament.

will all due respect, i just humbly want to ask a question, "are there differing views on this in judaism...are there any jewish factions that think that the messiah will be god in human form? i thought jesus was crucified for claiming that he was messiah and that equated to "blashphemy", a term only given to one falsely claiming to be god

in jesus' case, i think his messiah claim and claim to be god was correct

[tadpole]

Jesus, Buddha and Mohammad all came with variations of the same message. The funny thing is that after millenia, we still can't get it right. Typical human arrogance and stupidity.


We're all family, God loves all of us. So, the Jews should stop slaughtering the Palestinians. The Christians should stop killing eachother and those of different faiths. The Buddhists should stop the war in Sri Lanka. The Muslims have to stand up and tell the world about the beauty of their faith and stem the tide of those who are extremists. All faiths need to rain in on their extremists. The Buddhits need to stop being so passive and start taking a strong stance against violence- I mean a political will has to be grown. The Vatican needs to be more decisive about its own history and needs to be more vocal about human rights. and WE HAVE TO STOP SUPPLYING ISRAEL WITH THE ARSENAL THAT IT USES TO SLAUGHTER ITS DISPROPORTIONALLY EQUIPED FOE. The only state under siege is Palestine. Also, the Arab peace initiative must be taken seriously, put Israel in its place by bringing it back to its '67 borders. That little upshot has caused enough trouble, its about time we spank it.

[Judo]

I dont understand why so many people believe in the bible.

I havn't studied the old or new testament at all really but some of it just seems so wacky, like Noahs ark and Adam and Eve. Do the laws of nature not hold true for the past, I've just read 1984 and the word doublethink comes to mind (good book by the way).
Theres a few contradictions from what Ive been told aswell.

The movie Dogma sums up pretty well what I think, that we should live with/have Ideas not rules dictated to us by a book, which it seems can be translated anyway a preacher sees fit. My Mum always tells me that some people need religion, they need something to believe in, but I think they need to read a little more, think a little more, and open there minds a little more.

Like a Dog can't understand Algerbra I don't think we can fully understand who we are or how we got here.


Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing wonder and awe - the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me.
Immanuel Kant

[krossfyter]

judo...go read "Mere Christianity" .... then you will know why the bible matters.



:D

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Judo
I dont understand why so many people believe in the bible.

I havn't studied the old or new testament at all really but some of it just seems so wacky, like Noahs ark and Adam and Eve. Do the laws of nature not hold true for the past, I've just read 1984 and the word doublethink comes to mind (good book by the way).
Theres a few contradictions from what Ive been told aswell.

The movie Dogma sums up pretty well what I think, that we should live with/have Ideas not rules dictated to us by a book, which it seems can be translated anyway a preacher sees fit. My Mum always tells me that some people need religion, they need something to believe in, but I think they need to read a little more, think a little more, and open there minds a little more.

Like a Dog can't understand Algerbra I don't think we can fully understand who we are or how we got here.


Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing wonder and awe - the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me.
Immanuel Kant

i studied the new testament and some of the old testament in seminary school and there are certainly contradictions since it was written over many years by many different authors

the context of what all those authors is saying is the same...the old testament deals with a lot of suffering and the people of israel are begging for a messiah to come one day

the new testament, in a nutshell, is when that messiah actually comes to israel and then gets crucified and ridiculed...just as it is written

people saw those events in their own interpretations but there is no disputing jesus came back after he was killed and that he was killed for claiming to be god

let's talk about contradictions....i am on one side of a football game and i see the quarterback throw a pass for a ten yard gain to reach a first down

...but you are on the other side of the field and you see one of the offense side players do a penalty by holding

i saw a ten yard pass, but you saw a penalty...now it depends what the referees saw to make that play stand or not

...but because we both saw a different play does not make the whole game invalid

[mischief]

I'm gonna step on a few toes, but someone asked.

I'm the guy at the top of the stands that's been following the money and has figured out that the penalty won't get called 'cause the payola fows against it.

The Templars:

The Templar's right name is: The Knights of the Temple of Solomon. They were the Crusade that preceeded the Catholic Crusades. They were a group of non-Catholic Knights. Think Jedi, not of the Council nor of Palpatine's Cadre but something more obfuscated.

The Templars went into Jerusalem from Southern France just before the first Crusade and removed the remaining Artifacts from the Temple of Solomon. These Artifacts and the accompanying Arcana were hidden and preserved away from the power-hungry Catholic Church. The artifacts will stay in their hidden alcoves until Humanity gets enough of a clue to use them.

david: The Artifacts in question are the Temple plans, the various relics other than the Arc and scriptures of lost Arcana. It will be the Templars that come to Jerusalem to build on the Temple mount. Not for Jesus, Solomon or Muhammad but for Humanity. The Arc must find it's own way to the Temple.

The Templars ran the Banking system, founded the Royal Dynasties of Europe and Built Cathedrals on Ancient holy sites, preserving them through integration. Many Pagan sites that would otherwise have been defiled were preserved in this way. There was a tenuous partnership between the Vatican and the Templars. The Vatican got control of Europe and The Templars got the infrastructure. Eventually the Vatican Slaughtered most of the Templars in Europe and crowned one of their leaders "Holy Roman Emperor" through trickery. It's very much like the Jedi actually.

It is the Common interpretation that the heirs to the Templars are the Freemasons of the modern day. This will not be proven until the Temple is Rebuilt or Israel/Palestine is destroyed.

One bit of commentary: I'd really like to see the house of Abraham whole again. Ishmael sits on the doorstep. He is angry and afraid. Love him and bring him inside. He is your brother.

[the Otter]

How can a religious group say that you have to believe ONE thing, or you will go to hell (or whatever) when there have been millions of people throughout the world who have died and never even heard of this particular religious group.

I know exactly what you mean. That’s just one of the many reasons I became a Christian: in its 6,000 years of existence on this earth, The Church of Jesus Christ has never taught that horrible, blasphemous doctrine. Everyone who has ever lived — and everyone who will ever live — will be given the opportunity to accept or reject Jesus Christ as Savior. If a person doesn’t receive the opportunity in this life (and billions have not), they will have that chance in the next life. That’s why, since Biblical times, The Church has performed proxy baptisms on behalf of those who did not have that chance in this life (see, for example, 1 Cor. 15:29).

As for those who say there is no God, you’re welcome to your beliefs; but I know He exists — He told me Himself. And He will do the same for you, if you ask Him (http://scriptures.lds.org/moro/10)!

Want to know more about The Church of Jesus Christ?
Check it out here (http://www.mormon.org)! :D

[Rower_CPU]

Wow, this thread has been really popular!

Here's another view on religion as an institution:
Blaise Pascal (French philosopher and scientist) put forth an argument called "The Bet" along the following lines-
If God does not exist and you believe in Him, you lose nothing. If God does exist and you do not believe in him, you lose everything.

I think this sums up the way a lot "religious" people feel. You have more to lose by not believing than believing in vain. They are playing the odds for the biggest gain they can see: everlasting life in Heaven.

This brings up many moral questions.
Is religion just a bet people have made in hopes of something better when they die? Is this sort of belief "true" religion? Is this sort of belief any less valid than someone who "really" believes?

Just thought I'd throw this out there and see what you all think.

[jefhatfield]

i believe in god, but for one second let's believe there is no god

if having faith gives you happines like let's say, bowling or chess, then faith is a good thing...perhaps even a need for a happy life

[krossfyter]

wooo hey! there is a mormon on board... dig it!
welcome mormon. why advertise for your church rather then for Jesus himself?



just a question...nothing to get hot about.

[krossfyter]

dude... mischief
thats pretty cool how you see some sort of parrallel between parts of biblical history and parts of star wars. i most certainly see it this way also. however truth is stranger then fiction. the bible and its history in terms of its story is definitly way more creative. where do you think George Lucas and Shakepere got there stuff from?

:D

[the Otter]

Why advertise your church rather than Jesus himself/

Good question, krossfyter! Actually, I’ve seen posts from at least two other Latter-day Saints on here, so I guesss there’s a few of us. Also, I happen to know that our Church’s monthly magazine, The Ensign, is created entirely in Mac OS! Score one for the Saints! :D

I guess the way I see it is that there’s thousands upon thousands of churches out there that teach that Jesus is the Christ, and while that’s a great foundation to have (an essential one, actually), there’s more to it than that. In short, if I advertise Christ, it can help people out; but if I advertise His Church, it can help people more —*and if they accept the latter, they will necessarily accept the former along the way.

btw - on a somewhat related note, the term “Mormon,” when used to describe the Saints, has a history of derision. It all started in the 1830s, when the lawless mobs of the American frontier decided that the Church (which, in those days, tended to vote as a block) was too powerful and must be exterminated. It wasn’t easy to get a mob together to go and kill the “Saints;” but call them “Mormons,”*and everybody ran to get their guns! The state of Missouri even defied the U.S. Constitution and made “Mormonism” a capital offense! (This law remained on the books until 1974.)
So basically, I see calling someone a “Mormon” as being like calling someone a “n*gger.” Sure, some people within both of these subcultures (for lack of a better term) use the term internally, but it’s not the kind of thing you want to call just anyone, y’know?

Like you said, nothing to get hot about —*just an FYI. :)

[krossfyter]

thanks for the response. :D


i see your point. but i repectfully disagree with your church being the only true church or the true church at all.

i firmly believe..(and God has made this clear to me)..

that the trust in Jesus is all one needs...not a doctrine...nor a religion..nor a creed...nor a certain church itself. if you believe in Jesus then you believe in his church ...which is made up of all that believe in him....not just latter day saints (or ones that follow the mormon doctrine).

Jesus said it himself "It is finished".

no need to add on with a joseph smith (who i am higly skeptical about..with him being a necromancer and a faliable human regardless).

so while i do resepect you and your views I dont agree with them....and never will.


Jesus is all I need. no extra book or man is to be added.

Besides those scriptures that mormons bring up to craddle thier view.... are high on the stretch factor..... the muslims use this too with the old testament in craddling thier views on muhammed.


im not trying to be a butt here...im cool with you...and i would give you a hug and be your friend if i knew you outside of these forums, im sure.... but i just would never believe in the mormon doctrine...the same as you wouldnt believe in the way i believe.




:D

[Timothy]

So basically, I see calling someone a “Mormon” as being like calling someone a “n*gger.”

So, then, why did you create a link to a site at "mormon.org?"

[Timothy]

Krossfyter...thus far, you've been fairly good at sticking to an expression of your faith. As much as I'd like to engage you in the dialogue, this is not the forum to foster religious debate. However, you keep trying to "sneak" in your message of christianity in ever stronger and stronger terms. So, now that you've added this new "sig" to all of your postings, I think I'll comment directly on it.

First off...let me emphasize that religion is a matter of faith, not reason and/or logic. The CS Lewis quote attempts to create a logical construct for the existence of God. It is the type of quote that is loved by believers, but is completely unconvincing to skeptics. Why? Because logic does not lead to the conclusion that he arrives at. Let's look a bit closer:
Suppose there were no intelligence behind the universe. In that case nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking.
Right. But the "nobody" doesn't mean that it was random or unimportant. The natural evolution of certain skills, among which is the skill of "thinking" and "reason" has very specific benefits in nature. Our ability to "think" and "reason" give us an advantage towards survival. So, even if this purpose were not intelligently designed, it is still an important and useful tool within the context of our existence.
Thought is merely the by-product of some atoms within my skull. But if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true?
You can't always trust your own thinking to be true. There is no "guarantee" on thinking that says it is true. Even if "thinking" was the product of intelligent design, you'd still not be able to trust that it would be true. And, I think you recognize this, correct? You don't think that every thought you think is true, do you? Truth is a subjective term.

The point is, all thinking should be tested to the extent possible. Intelligent design or not.
But if I can't trust my own thinking, of course, I can't trust the agruements leading to atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an atheist, or anything else.
If you can't trust your own thinking, which may lead to Atheism, you also can't trust any thinking that would lead you to believe in a God. Atheists tend to over-state their "knowledge" in much the same ways as those who believe in God. Atheists can be just as dogmatic as religionists. But, his point is hollow; he can't attack the "logic" of Atheism without also attacking the "logic" of a belief in God.
Unless I belive in God, I can't belive in thought; so I can never use thought to disbelive in God. C.S Lewis
He hasn't establised any basis as to why thought is better if it is intelligently designed as opposed to naturally designed. If it is naturally designed, it is naturally good at the things it has been designed to do. He has drawn a conclusion that is unwarranted on the facts that he has presented. He has built a sort of straw-man argument to support his conclusion.

In the end...he is trying to argue that his faith in God is based in logic. It is not...it is based in faith.

[Kid Red]

I don't believe in god, I believe Jesus was some guy who preached, nothing more and nothing less. We are atoms created from the big bang, and are direct ascendants of apes, or Adam and Eve (both white?) popped out of thin air in their early 20's sitting under a tree? mmm, I think I'll go with science on this one. All religions are to be taken as seriously as Greek mythology. They are simply fables (some with morals) to explain how things are and should be done.

Believe in what you want to believe in, that's the beauty of free thought and individuality. I just hate when religious people try to push their beliefs on others and attempt to 'convert' them. I don't go door to door telling PC owners they will burn in hell if they don't turn to the goodness of the Mac, so why do religious followers feel the need to push their opinions?

Yea, there's a big whole in the center of the earth with lakes of fire and when sinners die they keep their bodies and drop into this hole and fight with a big red guy with horns, tail and pitch fork? Mythical characters. I am more spiritual, I believe in reincarnation, spirits (not angels) karma, and positive and negative energy. Live you life in a positive light, and you surround yourself with positive energy, screw around and that negative energy will bite you in the ass. What goes around comes around, and some other cliches do have their place. But to live and die by the words in a book (bible) that were written 30 years after christ died, and translated into I can't count how many languages is simply laughable. Then you have the religious fanatics...wait, that's another topic :)

(one more thing at least with christianity- how can someone murder 50 people, rape 40 kids under the age of 7 be forgiven and go to heaven simply by begging forgiveness and repenting for their sins? LOL)

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by Kid Red
I don't believe in god, I believe Jesus was some guy who preached, nothing more and nothing less. We are atoms created from the big bang, and are direct ascendants of apes, or Adam and Eve (both white?) popped out of thin air in their early 20's sitting under a tree? mmm, I think I'll go with science on this one. All religions are to be taken as seriously as Greek mythology. They are simply fables (some with morals) to explain how things are and should be done.

Believe in what you want to believe in, that's the beauty of free thought and individuality. I just hate when religious people try to push their beliefs on others and attempt to 'convert' them. I don't go door to door telling PC owners they will burn in hell if they don't turn to the goodness of the Mac, so why do religious followers feel the need to push their opinions?

Yea, there's a big whole in the center of the earth with lakes of fire and when sinners die they keep their bodies and drop into this hole and fight with a big red guy with horns, tail and pitch fork? Mythical characters. I am more spiritual, I believe in reincarnation, spirits (not angels) karma, and positive and negative energy. Live you life in a positive light, and you surround yourself with positive energy, screw around and that negative energy will bite you in the ass. What goes around comes around, and some other cliches do have their place. But to live and die by the words in a book (bible) that were written 30 years after christ died, and translated into I can't count how many languages is simply laughable. Then you have the religious fanatics...wait, that's another topic :)

(one more thing at least with christianity- how can someone murder 50 people, rape 40 kids under the age of 7 be forgiven and go to heaven simply by begging forgiveness and repenting for their sins? LOL)

first of all, faith is not based on logic and i know it does not seem logical to some that an evil person could change repent and go to heaven

but that is the belief of christianity and one of the early spokesmen of christianity, the apostle paul, killed and perhaps tortured hundreds if not thousands of christians before he changed and became a christian himself

though it does not seem logical that such a bloodthirsty man like paul the apostle could change, that change in behavior can only be explained by faith

one has to remember, paul the apostle used to be so evil he was like the hitler of his times according to the christians who were in fear of being decimated by paul...but thanks to god and paul's change in attitude, christianity exists today

[mischief]

I think therefore I am.

A logical statement of Faith.

In the realm of absolutes and CS Lewis:

Any idea recorded by the brain is not the truth but an amalgamation of associated data (illogical//irrational association) attatched to the observational memory of that idea. Therefore no living being can know the truth. We can guess all we want ........... in the end the quest for ultimate truth is simply an amusement.

Faith stands on it's own. Even without a Dogma one can have Faith. It's just trusting the Universe.......period. That's Faith.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by Timothy
Krossfyter...thus far, you've been fairly good at sticking to an expression of your faith. As much as I'd like to engage you in the dialogue, this is not the forum to foster religious debate. However, you keep trying to "sneak" in your message of christianity in ever stronger and stronger terms. So, now that you've added this new "sig" to all of your postings, I think I'll comment directly on it.

First off...let me emphasize that religion is a matter of faith, not reason and/or logic. The CS Lewis quote attempts to create a logical construct for the existence of God. It is the type of quote that is loved by believers, but is completely unconvincing to skeptics. Why? Because logic does not lead to the conclusion that he arrives at. Let's look a bit closer:

He hasn't establised any basis as to why thought is better if it is intelligently designed as opposed to naturally designed. If it is naturally designed, it is naturally good at the things it has been designed to do. He has drawn a conclusion that is unwarranted on the facts that he has presented. He has built a sort of straw-man argument to support his conclusion.

In the end...he is trying to argue that his faith in God is based in logic. It is not...it is based in faith.



its good to know people are looking....even if they still mis understand the whole context of the message.
while i see your point... i have to say you misread the sig man. dig it!

however... i understand there are those that dont believe in God being Logical and those that do. I am one who does believe GOd is logical...that I can also use my mind to reach.

I already have the heart and soul part...now im going for the mind part.

So far it has been succesful. Afterall God wants us to know him with all our heart and mind. EVRERYTHING ABOUT US we can use to know him. Not a hard concept. If you choose just to believe in GOd through faith...then awsome...for thats the primary key. Once you enter you find out that there is more to it then you ever would have thought. If you simply see it through faith alone...then thats your bag and im sure you wont be knocked for that. However once you know God....you kinda cant help but wanting to know more about him through other areas. Its sorta addicting. It takes initial faith to come to GOd. But after that is a whole different world.



dig it!


p.s. now that i have recieved so much "rave" reviews on my c.s. lewis sig... i will continue on this road...with more qoutes later on. lets see how these homeboys pic apart and mis read the writitng and or thoughts of one of the greatest intellectuals of the 20th century.

[mischief]

I once tried to find UltimateTruth ............ I always got the same error:

File "Ultimate Truth.dmg" is in use by "Physical Universe.app" You must first exit the Application.

After half an ounce of Hash I got:

File "Ultimate Truth.dmg" was created by root. You do not have sufficient privileges to access.

I could try suicide but then I couldn't report back. :rolleyes:

[krossfyter]

could it possibly be the kind of hash you were using?:D

[mischief]

I just couldn't remember my root login..........it's been like 40 billion years and (2^n) divisions of conciousness.

I should reformat this thing soon.......the edges are going all red.

[krossfyter]

bc? or that nasty mexican stuff? try it without.

[krossfyter]

got root?

anyways... i have been thinking ....

why do i always get the feeling that no matter what i say how i say it... (so as long as i believe in Christ) im always going to get slammed by those who dont? even if im nice and or respectful... i try to be? hmmm...

[Timothy]

Faith most certainly CAN be based on logic. I think therefore I am. A logical statement of Faith.

I think, perhaps, we are using differing meanings for the word faith. You are using Descartes conclusion (although slightly mistated) to support your idea. If you asked Descartes whether or not his above statement was based in faith, he would have scoffed; his entire intent was to build a "logical" basis for his belief in God beyond faith.

Even he acknowledged a distinction between faith and logic. I would posit that what you have expressed is more aptly labeled as a logical statement based in accepted assumptions. I may very well accept the same assumptions that would lead to the conclusion stated: I exist.

But, Descartes arguments break down in a number of ways.

Any idea recorded by the brain is not the truth but an amalgamation of associated data (illogical//irrational association) attatched to the observational memory of that idea. Therefore no living being can know the truth. We can guess all we want ........... in the end the quest for ultimate truth is simply an amusement.

Though I agree with the ideas you present here, I still think there is utility in searching for "truth" so long as we define our assumptions, and recognize our limitations.

Faith stands on it's own. Even without a Dogma one can have Faith. It's just trusting the Universe.......period. That's Faith.

Perhaps. I see faith as that which we hold to even in the face of logical and/or other doubts.

[mischief]

There are just too many folks who are either expatriot Christians or only ever encounter missionary zealots. That combined with the bloody history of the West in which countless lives were taken in the name of "Christianity" makes it a hard religion to come out as.

The thing to remember is:

Any religion that has a large population of poor, uneducated and otherwise mistreated folks can easily be used to start conflict. It doesn't take any talent to start a war with scripture. It just takes a lot of unhappy people of a particular religion, a highlighter and a copy of the text. Anyone can start a war by picking the passages that are most inflammatory and tying it into existing animosity.

This is how we get terrorists. It's not Islam. It's the large number of poor Muslims worldwide being fooled by a lot of jerks with Korans and highlighters.

[Timothy]

Krossfyter...if your logic convinced you that God did not exist...would you abandon your faith?

[krossfyter]

good question timothy.

there in lies faith alone. which i do have and im not without no matter what happens. when it all comes down to it.... trust (faith) in God is what holds me regardless of what my mind or man says on him.


however...such a statement for me (as you have made) would simply be an im possible situation. being that my logic shows me to GOd...never the other way. if i had no faith in the first place...i would never have found this logic.


but i see your point for what it is... and my answe is simply no. but once again i like your question because this is the essence of what it means to have faith and or trust in God.


its important to note here that i dont think i could have found this logic without faith first. i have never meet anyone that has. if there is such a person...please let me know.

thanks.

:D

[Judo]

Hey krossfyter.
feel free to ignore this post cause I know it can get annoying having to defend your thoughts at every courner, but to me it seems you have put yourself in a position where you are intellectually running around in circles and that no matter what you could always find a logic that will point you towards a truth that there is a god regardless of what you read or see, which could stop you from learning somethings.

I know Im sticking my nose in here, but in which way did Timothy misread your sig??

You reccomended Mere Christianity in an early post, I'll look out for it but I cant promise I'll get around to reading it. Also to me a book which can and has been used as a tool to destroy peoples lives and freedoms seems to be wrong about a few things.


Having said that I have a high respect for ya. you seem kind, generous and accepting of other people.
Big HUgs with no politacal, social or religious agendas attached all round I say.

[jefhatfield]

if i was a christian two thousand years ago, i would have thought the earth to be 4,000 years old and the earth to be flat

but i am a christian today and i know the earth is round and certainly way older than a few thousand years old, but there is no science that will refute that there was a man named jesus who got crucified for claiming to be god...and came back

so if science tomorrow proves that cancer is caused by vegetables and you can lose weight by eating a lot of carrots, it won't change what jesus did for us or the recorded history of his good deeds for mankind

[Judo]

Its writting in an old book that is hard to prove or disprove and just because it has been written down it dosn't mean it's true. I have yet to see or hear of any proof of any story written in the bible ie: Resurection, Noahs Ark, Adam & Eve, these stories defy modern science. (like i said before I dont have a huge amount of knowledge on the bible)

Would a christian of today believe that the human race came from Adam and Eve??

and if not why would you still believe that Jesus was the son of God who was resurected and will one day return?

[jefhatfield]

many christians have many different interpretations of what is written in the old and new testaments...and the bible was written by many authors in three languages

i am happy that i got a chance to do seminary school, but all that knowledge is not what is important, it became evident that within the school, students and teachers have completely different beliefs on different issues...except for who jesus christ was and what he did

so if you want to argue about the gift of tongues, age of the earth, practices of ancient israel, how jesus viewed women, how israel viewed jesus, how the romans treated the jews, faith healing, baptism styles, or even using musical instruments in church, go ahead...those are fascinating intellectual exercises and worthy of study and debate

but all christians believe jesus died for the sins of the world...and some non christians believe that, too

[the Otter]

So basically, I see calling someone a “Mormon” as being like calling someone a “n*gger.”
---
So, then, why did you create a link to a site at "mormon.org?"

Another very good question. IMHO, the reason The Church of Jesus Christ maintains a web site with the URL “Mormon.org” is the same reason Apple owns “iMac.com”: like it or not (and I see no reason Apple wouldn’t like it), it’s what someone might look for. It is important to note that Mormon.org is a web site designed for those who don’t yet know much about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and would therefore be more likely to know the term “Mormon” than “Latter-day Saint.” The Church’s official home page, however —*and the one that’s been around for years —*is actually www.LDS.org (after the common abbreviation for Latter-day Saints).

On that note, I do want to clarify one more thing: there is absolutely nothing wrong with the word “Mormon.”*Mormon was a great man, a Christian prophet who lived on the American continent in the fourth century A.D.. He complied and abridged the scriptural records of his people, a Judaic family that left Jerusalem about 600 B.C. and eventually became the primary ancestors of the Native American tribes. Because Mormon compiled these sacred records, the volume is known, in modern times, as The Book of Mormon.

To reiterate: Mormon the man = good.
Mormon, a synonym for Latter-day Saint = not so good.

[the Otter]

no need to add on with a joseph smith (who i am higly skeptical about..with him being a necromancer and a faliable human regardless).

...

Jesus is all I need. no extra book or man is to be added.

So I guess we agree to disagree, huh? Well, I suppose that’s okay for now. :D
Anyway, my rebuttal:

First of all, much as rumours of Mark Twain’s death were highly exaggerated, so is the so-called necromancy of Joseph Smith, Jr.. While many Latter-day Saints have not done the same, I have studied his life quite extensively, reading biograpies from both LDS and non-LDS authors. The reports of Joseph’s involvement with the conjuring of spirits seem to stem from the 1826 trial in which he was accused (and, some claim, convicted) of said crime. This is quite unsurprising, given the area and time in which he lived; it was a superstitous revivalism that gripped upstate New York, one in which young Joseph was very much caught up (hence the events leading up to his first Divine visitation (http://scriptures.lds.org/js_h/1/1-20#14) ). The crux of this argument is the testimony of Josiah Stowell, who, in a time of great destitution for the Smith family, hired both Joseph Sr. and Joseph Jr. to help him dig for buried treasure (which, I might add, Joseph Jr. stated was probably not there, and was certainly never found). It was this same man who spearheaded this accusation, and did so only after he lost money, having paid his workers a decent sum to dig for the probably non-existent treasure. (And even if Joseph was found guilty —*which is also disputable —*all agree that no sentence was ever imposed.)

Now that the facts have been laid out, let us argue, for a moment, the position that young Joseph was as bad as you say he was. Let us assume, for a moment, the worst: that he was, in fact, involved in necromancy in his youth. If you refer to his own writings, he admits his imperfections. In fact, he openly states that he was not given The Book of Mormon to translate until 1827 (note: after the aformentioned trial) because he was, in many ways, an evil man (http://scriptures.lds.org/js_h/1/27-54#28), and had great need to repent. How is this not like the Biblical Apostle Paul? He was also a wicked man, whose sins were much greater than that of a boy who dabbled with his generation’s equivalent of a Ouija board. And yet who would deny that Paul’s conversion was real? What Christian would deny his authority? Yes, Joseph Smith Jr. was a fallible human, and he repeatedly stated that throughout his life.

Now, onto your second comment: that Jesus is all you need. This response will be much shorter, as it need not be long (and I need to get to bed, anyway). :D

I agree with you wholeheartedly that Jesus is all that we need, and that no extra book or man is to be added. But to deny the existence of scripture written after the life of Christ is to deny the entire New Testament. Yes, Jesus said “It is finished,” but then he came back! — so if “it” was revelation, then Jesus becomes a liar and we have a major paradox on our hands.

Moving on, no, I don’t need Joseph Smith Jr., per se, in order to be saved; but I do need to know who Jesus Christ is, and I need to accept the infinite sacrifice he made for my sins. I also need to understand the things He wants me to do, to get back to Him —*things that will make me happy both in this life and the life to come. The teachings of the prophets — including Joseph Smith Jr. —*make this much easier than if I had to figure it all out by myself.

The bottom line is this, krossfyter: if documents were discovered tomorrow that irrefutably proved Joseph Smith Jr. to be a child molester and a serial killer, I would still be a member of The Church Christ restored through him. My witness is not based on a man — neither Joseph Smith Jr. nor anyone else — but on a God, who is Jesus the Christ. And you can take that to the bank. :D

---

P.S. If you’re interested in a fairly non-biased (yes, I know; there’s no such thing, really) book on the Prophet Joseph Smith, you may want to check out Richard L. Bushman’s Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Mormonism. Very interesting stuff!

[MacAztec]

We have seen enough of this post, i believe. All i gots to say is you Jews are really being stupid. Just kidding, no offence to anyone, just trying to stir up some stuff. Anyways, I dont think religion has to do anything with macs, so, arn, close this thread!

[jefhatfield]

this religious discussion doesn't belong in article discussions, software rumors, hardware rumors, etc, but i think so many of us flew off topic so much of the time that he created the "general discussion" board since we, as humans, are more than just mac users

before this category on these boards, there were rampant flamewars in article discussions, sex/sexism, religion, politics, etc, but now those off color, off topic discussions seem to be safely put into the general discussion territory so if you want to find mac stuff, all the other categories will be more or less on target

my 2 cents

[krossfyter]

ya man! get um jet....get um!


:D

[jefhatfield]

i love "general discussions" being more than only a mac user

and for someone like me, the most off topic person in the world, hey, i teach senior citizens for a volunteer job, i like this religious discussion and i have learned more about religion on this thread than anything else

usually, when i look at a religious topic, i look for a certain factoid...but with this open ended basically friendly discussion, there are angles i have never even imagined

there is so much thought and intelligence in all the posts here and that is great