The Price To Pay For Generic Emulation? [PS3] [Archive]

jdechko

Dec 13, 2006, 10:55 AM

Yeah, and Nintendo's the only one who didn't radically change their system architecture this generation. The code from gamecube games can probably be run natively (albeit at lower speeds). It has to be easier for GC developers to make their code run on the Wii. Heck, it should be nearly identical code. It will be interesting to see what happens with the next generation systems as far as hardware (mainly CPU and GPU) is concerned. I wonder if MS will stick with IBM PPC's (but faster) for their next-gen machine. I wonder if Sony will stick with an improved cell.

Dagless

Dec 13, 2006, 11:17 AM

Behold the incredible power of the PS3.

Wonder why it took this long for this video to exist, goes to show nobody really cares about PS1/2 backwards compatibility possibly?

Gimzotoy

Dec 13, 2006, 11:24 AM

Yeah, and Nintendo's the only one who didn't radically change their system architecture this generation. The code from gamecube games can probably be run natively (albeit at lower speeds).

Backwards-compatible games run natively on all 3 systems. Rather than emulate each chose to include the hardware from the previous generation(s). I haven't read what they used them for this time. In the PS2, the PS1 hardware was used for input control when not playing PS1 games.

Dagless

Dec 13, 2006, 11:29 AM

Backwards-compatible games run natively on all 3 systems. Rather than emulate each chose to include the hardware from the previous generation(s). I haven't read what they used them for this time. In the PS2, the PS1 hardware was used for input control when not playing PS1 games.

The 360 does have emulation profiles though, seeing as the 360 uses a PowerPC chip where the normal Xbox wants to run games with Pentium class x86 chip.

I don't know how the PS3 runs older games, going off the claimed power of the Cell, generically emulating the weakest last gen system should be a breeze.

Gimzotoy

Dec 13, 2006, 11:49 AM

The 360 does have emulation profiles though, seeing as the 360 uses a PowerPC chip where the normal Xbox wants to run games with Pentium class x86 chip.

I don't know how the PS3 runs older games, going off the claimed power of the Cell, generically emulating the weakest last gen system should be a breeze.

I forgot about the 360. My mistake there.

The PS3, though, has the PS2 CPU and GPU on-board.

Haoshiro

Dec 13, 2006, 12:03 PM

Behold the incredible power of the PS3.

Wonder why it took this long for this video to exist, goes to show nobody really cares about PS1/2 backwards compatibility possibly?

Because so few people actually own PS3s AND keeps them rather then putting them on eBay? And maybe the people who keep them are too busy watching all those Blu-ray movies and installing linux, since there are few games to play on the system. ;)

jdechko

Dec 13, 2006, 01:19 PM

I forgot about the 360. My mistake there.

The PS3, though, has the PS2 CPU and GPU on-board.

Well, I didn't realize that. I knew about the 360, and I believe I'd heard that the PS2 included PS1 hardware, but that's a long time ago. In any case, it'll probably be very difficult going forward to have BC* simply by including the old hardware. Emulation is nice assuming that you've got the HP to run it, as it requires no extra hardware. But using a faster processor of the same kind as previously used would, in my opinion, be ideal, as there'd be no need for emulation soaking up the extra HP.

*BC being solely playing a disc from a previous gen machine. VC running through an emulation layer wouldn't be classified as such.

greatdevourer

Dec 13, 2006, 01:29 PM

I forgot about the 360. My mistake there.

The PS3, though, has the PS2 CPU and GPU on-board. Considering the above video, I now doubt that - it should be exactly the same

atszyman

Dec 13, 2006, 01:51 PM

Considering the above video, I now doubt that - it should be exactly the same

It all depends on how the resolution scaling is handled. Since the PS3 is designed for High Definition setups there may be some interpolations going on to scale the PS1/2 images to the HD image. If this is done poorly you'd see results similar to this, even if the processor is identical. If they PS1/2 hardware is present the fix should only require a re-write of some of the video controller code run when playing PS1/2 games.

However I don't know much about the PS3 internals so there might be more to it than that.

Does this issue only occur on HDTVs or will you see similar image quality issues on an old standard definition TV?

Gimzotoy

Dec 13, 2006, 01:57 PM

Considering the above video, I now doubt that - it should be exactly the same

Nope, it's definitely in there. There are pictures of the chips. They're using the same units that shipped in the PStwo thin version. The video still has to go through the PS3 output board to the AV cables, and I'd bet that's where the problem is.

As atszyman man said, I'd guess it has something to do with scaling. Jaggies like that are a dead giveaway for resolution-dependent issues. Somebody screwed up on the backwards compatibility team... either in hardware design or software implementation. It might be patchable - hard to say.

GFLPraxis

Dec 13, 2006, 03:02 PM

The PS3, though, has the PS2 CPU and GPU on-board.

I haven't actually seen this confirmed anywhere. And seeing that video, I'm not sure I believe it.

Backwards-compatible games run natively on all 3 systems.

The 360 has emulators for individual games (that's what they call them, but emulators are for hardware, not individual software pieces...I think the so-called 'emulators' are recompiled binaries, emulator is just a more common market word). That's why most games don't run.

The PS3, I'm not sure about.

The Wii is based on the GameCube hardware, so it needs no additional hardware to run GameCube games.

GFLPraxis

Dec 13, 2006, 03:06 PM

I don't know how the PS3 runs older games, going off the claimed power of the Cell, generically emulating the weakest last gen system should be a breeze.

The problem that arises though is using a 9-core processor. Remember, the 8 cell cores are extremely optimized for certain types of work. It might not be feasible to use an exotic processor like the Cell to emulate a more traditional processor like the one in the PS2, even though the PS2 is so slow.

greatdevourer

Dec 13, 2006, 03:10 PM

The 360 has emulators for individual games (that's what they call them, but emulators are for hardware, not individual software pieces...I think the so-called 'emulators' are recompiled binaries, emulator is just a more common market word). That's why most games don't run. I wonder... if that *is* the case, is it possible to run PS2 games on a 360... me hopes so...

MacRumorUser

Dec 13, 2006, 03:18 PM

wow thats bad.

the 360 backwards compatability may be slow to be updated (a new update is due soon - including psychonauts at last - yipeee), but at least all it's titles are upscaled and look better than they did on the xbox.

PS2 games looking worse on ps3. eek.... :o

Gimzotoy

Dec 13, 2006, 03:18 PM

I haven't actually seen this confirmed anywhere. And seeing that video, I'm not sure I believe it.

It's true. It's been confirmed a bunch of times. One of the dissections pointed out the two chips, but I can't remember which one. Also, I previously mentioned I forgot the 360 was emulated. It's the only console that currently emulates previous gen games. I thought it was stupid not to include a Celeron in the X360 hardware given total cost would have probably been $20 or so a console, but looking at the scaling problems Sony's now having MS might have made the better choice. Didn't MS switch video card companies too? That might have had more to do with their reliance on emulation than anything else. Also, Sony has said they'd like to software emulate the PS2 eventually in the PS3 hardware, but do not do so currently.

IGN's commented on it several times, at least. This being the latest:
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/745/745439p1.html

pcypert

Dec 14, 2006, 01:46 AM

I'm not a huge gamer...but I think I read somehwere that the current setup for the 360 and having to download update drivers for games was totally due to the new graphics card and the companies not co-existing...

Think Evil Dead 1, 2, and Army of Darkness...different studios produced each one so they always had to reshoot the flashbacks :)

Paul

GFLPraxis

Dec 14, 2006, 02:50 AM

I wonder... if that *is* the case, is it possible to run PS2 games on a 360... me hopes so...

It certainly could, if you could steal the source code and recompile PS2 games :p

It won't happen.

Haoshiro

Dec 14, 2006, 06:37 AM

It certainly could, if you could steal the source code and recompile PS2 games :p

It won't happen.

Well bleem! did PS1 on Dreamcast, I bet it could be done on 360... but the legal problems would be too much of a headache for anyone to try... just look at what happened to bleem! They didn't even lose the lawsuits, they went bankrupt due to court costs...

greatdevourer

Dec 14, 2006, 08:34 AM

It certainly could, if you could steal the source code and recompile PS2 games :p

It won't happen. Oh, I dunno... *considers changing work experience begging letters to Free Radical rather than Ninja Theory...* :D Even if it'd never be released to the public, I wouldn't mind having a go (TS1 in HD! :D)

Well bleem! did PS1 on Dreamcast, I bet it could be done on 360... but the legal problems would be too much of a headache for anyone to try... just look at what happened to bleem! They didn't even lose the lawsuits, they went bankrupt due to court costs... My comment was about properly recompiling