New JD Powers Quality Survey...

[DakotaGuy]

The best brand...

Lexus

The worse brand...

Hummer

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/134690439_autosurvey07.html

It is funny how everyone made fun of me because I bought a Mercury Mountaineer and was saying how terrible they are and how it was going to fall apart right away, look where Mercury is on the list. This is an accurate survey.

Problems per 100 vehicles...

Mercury.....113
Toyota.......121
Honda........128

But anyhow that terrible argument is over and I don't want to get into the whole American Cars suck and all of that, but as you can see, true quality cannot be judged on opinion.

[mcrain]

GM was fifth, the highest among U.S. manufacturers for the second straight year. GM had 134 problems per 100 vehicles, four more than last year.

Ford Motor Company - 136

By Brand:
Mercury - 113
Ford - 136
Lincoln - 139
Jaguar (Ford owned)- 122

(edit) Mercury is by far the best Ford brand, but you have to wonder how they are any better than Lincoln or the other Ford cars when they all use the same platforms, engines, etc...

GM - 134

By Brand
Cadillac - 103
Buick - 112
Pontiac - 142
GMC - 144


BMW of America - 124
BMW Brand - 118

I'm lovin my 540i.

[funkywhat2]

Two points:

We rippped on you because you ripped on the guy who bought the Honda Element.

Ford's killing Mercury off anyway.

They have six cars. One is being killed off at the end of the year - the Cougar. In the past five or so years, they've gotten rid of two other models - the Tracer and the other one based on the Ford Contour. With the Cougar gone and the Villager being replaced with a Ford Windstar based model, it means that Mercury has no cars exclusive to themselves. They are just hopped up Ford models with no special features. You could go buy a Ford with the same "kit" for the same price.

Isn't this how GM axed Oldsmobile?

[DakotaGuy]

Originally posted by funkywhat2
Two points:

We rippped on you because you ripped on the guy who bought the Honda Element.

Ford's killing Mercury off anyway.

They have six cars. One is being killed off at the end of the year - the Cougar. In the past five or so years, they've gotten rid of two other models - the Tracer and the other one based on the Ford Contour. With the Cougar gone and the Villager being replaced with a Ford Windstar based model, it means that Mercury has no cars exclusive to themselves. They are just hopped up Ford models with no special features. You could go buy a Ford with the same "kit" for the same price.

Isn't this how GM axed Oldsmobile?

Bill Ford said he is committed to Mercury and building it into a better division. There are more new Mercury's coming in the next couple of years then Fords. This is the Montego sedan coming in 2005, All Wheel Drive. Although Ford's and Mercury's are built on simular chassis, Mercury's always have a much better quality rating. It probably has to do with build quality and lower numbers of units produced. I have a 2002 Mountaineer, yes same chassis as the Explorer, but has several exclusive features, like full time AWD, standard 3rd row seat, brushed aluminum interior and much different styling. Anyhow this picture is pretty much where Ford is going in replacing the Taurus and Sable. 2005 Mercury Montego AWD.

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by funkywhat2
We rippped on you because you ripped on the guy who bought the Honda Element.


That would be me - and so far I've had zero problems with my new Element....

Besides these numbers are for the whole line of vehicles, not one specifice car...its not all that applicable at that level.

D

[Tommy!]

thats just a really ugly audi A6...

[Moxiemike]

this dude ripped on duke for buying an element.

he made a left handed compliment to me for buying a Saab.

his mercury is SOOOO good.

He claims these tests are SOOO reliable.

I say, who cares?

It's a proven fact that if i take care of my car and do what i need to do to ensure it lasting, 99.8% chance it will last.

This guys sounds a bit jealous that he's stuck driving a mercury while duke is driving a utilitarian and hip Element and i'm driving a sleek and sexy Saab....

;)

just my .02

[Mr. Anderson]

well, I have to say that we really don't need to open up this old discussion again - lets just say we're all happy with our choices and leave it at that, ok?

D

[DakotaGuy]

My Mountaineer just rolled over 30,000 miles and never in the shop once, except for oil changes and tire rotation.

Look I am sorry if I bashed your Element. I don't care for the styling, but if you like it then more power to you. I hope it holds up for you and am sure it will.

I just found the latest JD Power survey to prove my point that some American Cars are built with quality. You know every single quality survey, Buick is right at the top, most times, beating all others in quality except for the Luxury imports, like Lexus. Mercury always scores very well in all quality surveys, beating Honda and Toyota. I agree Lexus is untouchable, but I think JD Power shows us that domestic is not crap anymore. It is just everyone hates America anymore so they will only drive Japanese cars. All I ever hear is they do because American cars have such poor quality, but it is not true anymore. Some do like the Hummer H2, but most compare very close to Honda and Toyota.

Look where Nissan is on the list. Of course they are owned by Renault now, and Renault built some of most unrealiable cars ever to come off of a line. My guess is quality is starting to become not much of an issue to them anymore. How about Kia? Most people on here will tell you Korean is much better quality then American, but we can see with real scientific data, that IS NOT true!

[Moxiemike]

Sorry to double post but I must say "oh Christ!"

I went to look at that site... and it's a CONSUMER SATISFACTION survey.

Christ, it's not even scientific. I could say "I can't turn on the lights on my car" and ruin x-brands rep.

Seriously. There's certain things that are different from car to car and that's what most consumers compare.

For example, my VW had auto door locks. Thhey locked when the car went 10mph.

The Saab lets you lock them. And while I like the idea of my doors automatically locking, i DIDN"t like the way the VW lock was made-- it sucked your skin and pinched it if you rested your arm on the window ledge.

1 point in VW's favor, 1 against. And 1 for teh saab for making locks that don't pinch your skin, 1 against for making YOU think about locking them.

But that's just me. Maybe Duke or Eye would like something different.

And idiot americans complain about fuel consumption on the Hummer. Well duh!

This article is so not credible... it's laughable really.

eck.

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
My Mountaineer just rolled over 30,000 miles and never in the shop once, except for oil changes and tire rotation.

Look I am sorry if I bashed your Element. I don't care for the styling, but if you like it then more power to you. I hope it holds up for you and am sure it will.

I just found the latest JD Power survey to prove my point that some American Cars are built with quality. You know every single quality survey, Buick is right at the top, most times, beating all others in quality except for the Luxury imports, like Lexus. Mercury always scores very well in all quality surveys, beating Honda and Toyota. I agree Lexus is untouchable, but I think JD Power shows us that domestic is not crap anymore. It is just everyone hates America anymore so they will only drive Japanese cars. All I ever hear is they do because American cars have such poor quality, but it is not true anymore. Some do like the Hummer H2, but most compare very close to Honda and Toyota.

Look where Nissan is on the list. Of course they are owned by Renault now, and Renault built some of most unrealiable cars ever to come off of a line. My guess is quality is starting to become not much of an issue to them anymore. How about Kia? Most people on here will tell you Korean is much better quality then American, but we can see with real scientific data, that IS NOT true!

And you can say how awful Saab's are... but they're owned by GM. And then there's the whole american cars built in Mexico thing. While some foreign cars (toyotas for example) are built in america.

The term "american car" is pretty useless. Just as much as saying a Saab is swedish and a Mini Cooper is British. Maybe in heritage, but a cooper is more a BMW than a Bentley.

Sheesh.
:rolleyes:

[DakotaGuy]

Originally posted by Moxiemike
this dude ripped on duke for buying an element.

he made a left handed compliment to me for buying a Saab.

his mercury is SOOOO good.

He claims these tests are SOOO reliable.

I say, who cares?

It's a proven fact that if i take care of my car and do what i need to do to ensure it lasting, 99.8% chance it will last.

This guys sounds a bit jealous that he's stuck driving a mercury while duke is driving a utilitarian and hip Element and i'm driving a sleek and sexy Saab....

;)

just my .02

He can have that utilitarian and hip Element, I doubt it would last very long on some of the washboarded gravel back roads we have up here in South Dakota. Car chassis fall apart after thousands of miles of backroads driving. Nothing but squeaks and rattles. How about that Saab? How does it go though a foot of snow? Plowed it to the bumper in the Mtneer last winter trying to get home, and I made it.

Slam it all you want. I am hardly jeolous. I know my tow rating, my seating capacity, my horsepower and tq, my electronic true all wheel drive system. When I replace it I will be buying a Lincoln Avaitor. They have a 305HP 32 Valve V8. I suppose if I had a new Avaitor you would still think I was jeolous of the under $20K little Honda.haha

Look drive whatever you want, if you don't slam my car I won't slam yours. People made a joke out of me and I wanted to show this evidence to back me up. That is all. Find the same sort of evidence that says Saabs are very reliable and I will look at it.

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
He can have that utilitarian and hip Element, I doubt it would last very long on some of the washboarded gravel back roads we have up here in South Dakota. Car chassis fall apart after thousands of miles of backroads driving. Nothing but squeaks and rattles. How about that Saab? How does it go though a foot of snow? Plowed it to the bumper in the Mtneer last winter trying to get home, and I made it.

Slam it all you want. I am hardly jeolous. I know my tow rating, my seating capacity, my horsepower and tq, my electronic true all wheel drive system. When I replace it I will be buying a Lincoln Avaitor. They have a 305HP 32 Valve V8. I suppose if I had a new Avaitor you would still think I was jeolous of the under $20K little Honda.haha You are just jeolous cause you know you look limp wristed in your little Hondas and Saabs.

Geez. You really must be jealous. I could care less where you have to drive. Do we get a foot and a half of snow in Pgh? Sure. And yea... I drove my jetta through it. But I spent most of the time using that "snowed in" time to do other things.

will my Saab be as road worthy? probably.

Do I ever take my car on back roads? Rarely. Do i need an AWD house on wheels? Nope. I prefer my fuel efficient sedan for my nice urban life.

You're obviously someone who really needs to make up for a lack of size in certain areas by having your big mercury or bigger lincoln and braggng so much about it.

somewhere you have inferiority feelings. ;)

[DakotaGuy]

Originally posted by Moxiemike
Geez. You really must be jealous. I could care less where you have to drive. Do we get a foot and a half of snow in Pgh? Sure. And yea... I drove my jetta through it. But I spent most of the time using that "snowed in" time to do other things.

will my Saab be as road worthy? probably.

Do I ever take my car on back roads? Rarely. Do i need an AWD house on wheels? Nope. I prefer my fuel efficient sedan for my nice urban life.

You're obviously someone who really needs to make up for a lack of size in certain areas by having your big mercury or bigger lincoln and braggng so much about it.

somewhere you have inferiority feelings. ;)

You know I used to love Mac people, but a lot are starting to upset me,a few are back stabbers that love to hurt feelings. Makes you wonder why they run Macs when they act just like Bill Gates. I help keep Apple in business and keep buying their crap, what the hell do you people have against me???????

**** all of you...you won't make fun of me anymore because I am done with MR. Funny since I have actually got a number by my name now, but I am not wanted here, because I am not young enough and I don't fit in with the so called "hip" culture. Forget it...**** it

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
You know I used to love Mac people, but a lot are starting to upset me,a few are back stabbers that love to hurt feelings. Makes you wonder why they run Macs when they act just like Bill Gates. I help keep Apple in business and keep buying their crap, what the hell do you people have against me???????

**** all of you...you won't make fun of me anymore because I am done with MR. Funny since I have actually got a number by my name now, but I am not wanted here, because I am not young enough and I don't fit in with the so called "hip" culture. Forget it...**** it

cool. have fun. peace!

[DakotaGuy]

Originally posted by Moxiemike
cool. have fun. peace!

yeah have fun looking like a homo in your saab

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
yeah have fun looking like a homo in your saab

not really neccessary

[DakotaGuy]

Originally posted by Moxiemike
not really neccessary

hey you started it, putting me and my car down, i am just telling you how i feel right now.

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
People made a joke out of me and I wanted to show this evidence to back me up. That is all. Find the same sort of evidence that says Saabs are very reliable and I will look at it.

Dude. You don't need people at MR to make a joke out of yourself. You've done quite well on your own.

[DakotaGuy]

Originally posted by Moxiemike
Dude. You don't need people at MR to make a joke out of yourself. You've done quite well on your own.

Why I am a joke because I defend what I buy?

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
hey you started it, putting me and my car down, i am just telling you how i feel right now.

by calling me a homo?

*shakes head* well. you've proven yourself to be worthy of your excessive SUV by showing your excessive stupidity and underlying homophobia.

Sick man. *shakes head*

[Foxer]

Originally posted by mcrain
Mercury is by far the best Ford brand, but you have to wonder how they are any better than Lincoln or the other Ford cars when they all use the same platforms, engines, etc...


I assume it is because Ford division has cars (Thunderbird, Excursion, Expedition, Escape, ZX2, Focus) of which there are no Merc equivalents. These brands may be more problem plagued than those that are cross-platformed. Of course, I have an Expediation with 60K and my wife has an Escape with 50K and neither have been to the shop with problems.

Also, Ford also owns Land Rover and MAzda (with bad numbers) and Volvo (with good numbers). GM owns Hummer, Saab and Saturn, all of which are in the bottom wrung...

(I'm so happy about Saturn getting hosed. I hate those cars and the self-satisfied people who drive them).

(Present company excluded, of course)

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
Why I am a joke because I defend what I buy?

Again, all the homo comments you're trying to hide by editing your posts to make you look less like a homophobic, gas guzzling american moron. :)

[DakotaGuy]

Originally posted by Moxiemike
Again, all the homo comments you're trying to hide by editing your posts to make you look less like a homophobic, gas guzzling american moron. :)

You know what is funny...I AM gay! haha...I am calling you a homo because you act like most of the limp wristed pussies I meet at the bar. Too good for everyone...all sophicated and crap...

[macktheknife]

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
Look where Nissan is on the list. Of course they are owned by Renault now, and Renault built some of most unrealiable cars ever to come off of a line. My guess is quality is starting to become not much of an issue to them anymore. How about Kia? Most people on here will tell you Korean is much better quality then American, but we can see with real scientific data, that IS NOT true!

Quality has indeed improved across the board for all cars. However, remember that Ohio, Kentucky, and other Southern States have been producing the Hondas and Toyotas driven in this country for quite some time. In my opinion, I think quality has less to do with the nationality of the country (i.e. where the company is headquartered) than how the production process is designed and implemented. The Japanese car manufacturers have been getting high-quality cars for the US market from their American workers while the Big Three still generally has higher rates of defects with cars produced by American, Canadian, and (in some cases) Mexican workers.

The Big Three Detroit automakers (GM, Ford, and Daimler-Chrylser), have been beaten badly in the sedan and compact segment for the last 20 years. Their savior came in the form of SUVs in the 1990s, but the Japanese and European competitors are moving in fast. The Big Three have tried to fight back (with Ford's most notable success in the Focus and GM's Saturn), but they have largely been unsuccessful in wrestling market share back.

Why? I can't speak for everyone, but as a yuppie with lots of yuppie friends, we tend to look at the Japanese and European cars more favorably due to design and overall reputation. We don't even consider Buicks and Chevys (although the Focus is another story). When many of us want to upgrade to a luxury car, we immediately consider BMW, Lexus, etc. Despite its recent efforts, Cadillac for my generation is more of a joke than a brand.

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
You know what is funny...I AM gay! haha...I am calling you a homo because you act like most of the limp wristed pussies I meet at the bar. Too good for everyone...all sophicated and crap...

god. are you pathetic.

[DakotaGuy]

Originally posted by Foxer
I assume it is because Ford division has cars (Thunderbird, Excursion, Expedition, Escape, ZX2, Focus) of which there are no Merc equivalents. These brands may be more problem plagued than those that are cross-platformed. Of course, I have an Expediation with 60K and my wife has an Escape with 50K and neither have been to the shop with problems.

Also, Ford also owns Land Rover and MAzda (with bad numbers) and Volvo (with good numbers). GM owns Hummer, Saab and Saturn, all of which are in the bottom wrung...

(I'm so happy about Saturn getting hosed. I hate those cars and the self-satisfied people who drive them).

(Present company excluded, of course)

Thank you finally some decent conversation over the quality survey ratings.

[vniow]

You two make me sick, be lucky you can even afford a brand new car.

Blech.

Off to the Wasteland we go!

[DakotaGuy]

Originally posted by Moxiemike
god. are you pathetic.

Let me see here...now I suppose you are slamming me because you don't like what I drive and you don't like who I sleep with...typical close-minded, New England person. Snobby people. Sad.

[Foxer]

Originally posted by Moxiemike
Again, all the homo comments you're trying to hide by editing your posts to make you look less like a homophobic, gas guzzling american moron. :)

Hey, give abercrombie a break. Dude likes his car. The mountaineer's a solid vehicle and much more useful where he lives than a Saab would be. Should he have made the "homo" comment? Probably not. Is it worse than calling someone a "gas-guzzling american moron?" No way.

And the Honda Element does look like Gen-Y "x-treme" sports, poser crap. And if you buy a car because it's "hip" just go back to banana republic with your Mountain Dew Code Red and try on some more stretch chinos...

Christ!

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
Let me see here...now I suppose you are slamming me because you don't like what I drive and you don't like who I sleep with...typical close-minded, new england person. Snub people. Sad.

No I'm Snubbing you because you're stupid.

Stupidity, unfortunately, is not limited to a certain race, sexuality or creed. :)

Go drive your mousekateer car and blow off some steam, ok?

[Foxer]

Originally posted by macktheknife
Quality has indeed improved across the board for all cars. However, remember that Ohio, Kentucky, and other Southern States have been producing the Hondas and Toyotas driven in this country for quite some time. In my opinion, I think quality has less to do with the nationality of the country (i.e. where the company is headquartered) than how the production process is designed and implemented. The Japanese car manufacturers have been getting high-quality cars for the US market from their American workers while the Big Three still generally has higher rates of defects with cars produced by American, Canadian, and (in some cases) Mexican workers.

The Big Three Detroit automakers (GM, Ford, and Daimler-Chrylser), have been beaten badly in the sedan and compact segment for the last 20 years. Their savior came in the form of SUVs in the 1990s, but the Japanese and European competitors are moving in fast. The Big Three have tried to fight back (with Ford's most notable success in the Focus and GM's Saturn), but they have largely been unsuccessful in wrestling market share back.

Why? I can't speak for everyone, but as a yuppie with lots of yuppie friends, we tend to look at the Japanese and European cars more favorably due to design and overall reputation. We don't even consider Buicks and Chevys (although the Focus is another story). When many of us want to upgrade to a luxury car, we immediately consider BMW, Lexus, etc. Despite its recent efforts, Cadillac for my generation is more of a joke than a brand.

I agree with everything you say, except Saturn has yet to make a dime for GM, so I don't know if you can call it a success. You're right that Caddies are a sad joke, though.

Of course, I'm from Detroit originally, so I will always buy "American," but otherwise I'd be in BMW as we speak.

[DakotaGuy]

Originally posted by Foxer
Hey, give abercrombie a break. Dude likes his car. The mountaineer's a solid vehicle and much more useful where he lives than a Saab would be. Should he have made the "homo" comment? Probably not. Is it worse than calling someone a "gas-guzzling american moron?" No way.

And the Honda Element does look like Gen-Y "x-treme" sports, poser crap. And if you buy a car because it's "hip" just go back to banana republic with your Mountain Dew Code Red and try on some more stretch chinos...

Christ!

Thank you Fox. Discussion on this is over. I like what I drive, you like what you drive and it is all good. I never called your Saab a POS, but you did call my truck a POS for no reason.

Look moxiemike, everything I said I am sorry about. If you can't accept my apology for it, then so be it. Enough of these kids games, I get wrapped up in this stuff sometimes, that is all. I defend a lot of my purchases when I am very happy with them.

[Moxiemike]

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
Thank you Fox. Discussion on this is over. I like what I drive, you like what you drive and it is all good. I never called your Saab a POS, but you did call my truck a POS for no reason.

Look moxiemike, everything I said I am sorry about. If you can't accept my apology for it, then so be it. Enough of these kids games, I get wrapped up in this stuff sometimes, that is all. I defend a lot of my purchases when I am very happy with them.

I never said your truck was POS. You just inferred that. IT DOES guzzle gas. And you DO seem like you're jealous. Duke posted his new car 'cause he was excited. I did as well. Eye did when he bought his matrix. We all cheered and said good luck, congrats, etc etc etc etc

You slammed Duke's Element. You made a fuss about my Saab's relaibility.

I say one thing about your truck, that it guzzles gas and you have perceived jealousy and i'm a snobby homosexual elitist from new england.

Actually, I'm a registered Socialist, heterosexual entrepeneur with tastes leaning toward the european in cars from Pittsburgh PA.

Shows how well rationed your arguments were.

Apology accepted, but instead of baiting people when they post "i just got a ____" threads, shut your mouth and congratulate them. Even if they don't have YOUR desired brand of X widget.

ok?

[Mr. Anderson]

You know, this really pisses me off - I asked that you not let it get out of hand, but no, you had to go and do some name calling....blah:mad:

And for the record, I'm 38 and I'm not trying to be hip, the car is more practical than anything else.

And that's it....

D