Panther vs. Longhorn?

[MacRumors]

This Microsoft Watch article (http://www.microsoft-watch.com/article2/0,4248,1090247,00.asp) by Mary Jo Foley and Matthew Rothenberg provides some preliminary (premature?) comparisons between the two unreleased OS's.

Anticipated Panther features are recapped, starting with rumors of performance boosts in the areas of launch, boot and log-in times. Other features borrowed from XP are also described:

For features, Apple is burning the midnight oil to add capabilities that will rival Windows Terminal Services' access to multiple desktops, XP's ability to create profiles that travel with them among machines, and extensible help-system features that allow third-party developers to provide support and updates from within the OS. Add in such niceties as transparent, file system-level compression and encryption, and Apple has a sizeable task list in front of it.

The article also describes the anticipated features for Longhorn (due in 2005)... with some cues taken from Apple (compositing-video-interface) and advanced features such as "natural-language query capabilites".

With a target date of 2005, it seems that Panther comparisons are premature as Panther will be two years old by Longhorn's release.

[nuckinfutz]

By the time Longhorn ships the successor to Panther will be replaced soon. I don't expect Microsoft to offer the features of the current OSX when Longhorn ships.

[Abstract]

Yeah, by the time an actual comparison can be made, nobody will be able to remember what specific features Panther had and what it didn't have, since updates to the OS happen all the time.

[groovebuster]

OMG... 2 years are a long time in OS business. It's almost funny that they compare Panther to Longhorn already. Let's see what Apple has up it's sleeves in two years and then compare... journalists can be so ignorant, espeaicially when they are on the payroll of M$! :D ;)

It would have been much more interesting to see a real feature comparison between XP and Panther, but I guess that would have been not very flattering for XP...

In the meantime I am looking forward to new soft- and hardware in the near future by Apple. :cool:

groovebuster

[Kamu-San]

Pretty convenient for Microsoft. They never actually innovate, they just wait and see what works in the market and then release and aggressively promote their propietry variant of the technology, which is usually somewhat less complex to use that their competitor's (older) offerings.

See IE, C#, SQL server.


What also fits the pattern is that they start a hype *years* in advance. This makes competitors nervous and makes buyers wait and reluctant to look at a competitor's product.

Anyway, since M$ strength (believe it or not) is to make an easier to use variant of existing technology, it will be interesting to see how they compete with Apple. I doubt if they can improve on the usability of Apple's products.

[ollywilson2003]

Is this a bad comparison or what?

By the time Longhorn comes out 10.5 will also be out. (or coming out)

[Wardofsky]

Comparison of Mac and Win?
Who cares, if you use Mac you boo the Windows, if you use the Window you'll (get arrested) boo the macs...

[herocero]

i think some of you are reading this the wrong way. yeah, it's pretty dumb for a journalist (or anyone for that matter) to compare an OS being released in 3 or so months with one coming out in 2 years. what struck me was that for the first time in a while MS is somewhat in a development lull in their product cycle for desktop OSes. For the same reason comparing Pather to Longhorn is a bit out of scope, so is comparing Panther to XP. The point being that the panther-xp comparison is the only one that can be made until the debut of longhorn . . .
good news for apple i say. take as long as you want MS. i'm still not going back. :D
IMO apple got it right with music rights, and palladium and longhorn are not the future of computer security.

[mangoduck]

...Panther will be two years old by Longhorn's release.

heh.

haah!

HHAHA AHA AHAH AHHA A RH A HR H H AH AA HHA HHGHG GHA RHAHAAHAAAAAH AH AH H AHA hh...[wheeze]...

[foniks2020]

Originally posted by mangoduck
heh.

haah!

HHAHA AHA AHAH AHHA A RH A HR H H AH AA HHA HHGHG GHA RHAHAAHAAAAAH AH AH H AHA hh...[wheeze]...


My sentiments exactly!

[ollywilson2003]

[i]Originally posted by herocero [/i
palladium and longhorn are not the future of computer security. [/B]



Quite right, I forgot about that, palladium sounds like its making the user barely more than a supervisor.

[chimay]

To be fair I thought this was quite a balanced article. It clearly stated that Panther should be assessed against XP as Longhorn won't be released until 2005.

It even states that Apple will rule the desktop OS environment until Longhorn comes out. Given the development pace of OS X, I think the next 2 years look healthy for Mac users, as long as Apple keeps on innovating (and listening to users). http://forums.macrumors.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

I use Windows 2000 at work (no choice) and since I bought my first Apple in Oct 2001 I haven't used any other OS at home at all (I used to use Linux for a number of years).

I don't know about you but I'm looking forward to Panther being released soon...

[YWN]

Panther will be going head-to-head with XP, not Longhorn. And XP shipped in 2001.

Euhm, I am wondering about this, I think it was OS X that was going head-to-head with XP, and OS X was first. I feel XP is kinda a "copy" of OS X. A REALLY MESSED UP COPY!!!! Ask pro winblows users, most will say XP = crap! how many pro mac users will say X = crap? Lots of users of XP want back to other OS, like ME, NT and 2000. How many want back to OS 9?

Apple has been careful not to underestimate Microsoft on the OS front. Indeed, even though Mac users have been fulsome in their praise of the features and speed of the current version, 10.2, of Mac OS X (a k a Jaguar), Apple insiders are well-aware of areas where XP is ahead of Mac OS X.

***** THAT, damn, XP sucks in any way you look at it, the only way to use XP is having an 1+ GHz P4, with at least 256 MB RAM, while I use jaguar on an G3/400 MHz with 192 MB RAM, and I have no problems... I am really wondering about the good things from XP. I use OS X with lots of pleasure, and I don't like XP (which I sometimes use because of games).

Better search throughout. The goal: to out-google Google.

Nice plan, but then again, 2 years for a better search?

Microsoft last week said on the record that it won't RTM (release to manufacturing) until 2005.

DAMN, think about this : when Longthorn = finished, nothing can use it (all kinds of new technics), and Mac, would have 10.5 already, probably. Then 10.5 would be so far infront of Longthorn!! that they again need 2 years to come with something betters.. a$$holes

[yumpin yiminy]

Matthew Rothenberg writes alot about the Mac (for the Wall Street Journal?) so that is likely where the balance found in that article comes from.
It does seem rather odd to say that the future of Windows is going to one up the next Mac OS update. Much more silly than saying the last version of Windows could continue to put the next MacOS to shame. But, that is part of what the article says.

and for those who didn't catch it, As The Apple Turns (appleturns.com) has a link to this:
ftp://ftp.extremetech.com/pub/extremetech/news/winhec/WaveWindows.MOV
one of the possible effects in Longhorn.
As Appleturns points out, it is kind of pointless looking, isn't it? Like shaking a transparency/acetate to hear the noise it makes. Serves no discernable good GUI purpose.

On a side note, MS' research pages on their website do have a link to the proposed 3D environment they were thinking about several years ago. Longhorn seems to kind of have that but still in its early stages looks like an Aqua clone.
---------
Desktop pictures don't make a GUI work any better nor does it improve a computer.

[Bengt77]

Originally posted by chimay
I use Windows 2000 at work (no choice)

That's my situation exactly. I think it's a lot of Mac users' situation, am I right? How do we all like Windows 2000?

I wrote down a few Windows annoyances the other week:

- When dragging files in the Windows Explorer to a folder near the bottom of the folder list, the Explorer thinks it's very handy if it scrolls up automatically, even when you're not at the bottom yet. So if you needed to drop the files in the folder just above the (visibly) last one, and released the mouse button too soon, the files get put in the wrong folder. Annoying!
- When needing to open multiple files, I'm very used to highlighting them all and double clicking one of them. Doesn't work in Windows; it'll only open the one you double clicked. You have to use the right mouse button and choose "Open" in the contextual menu. Plan stupid!
- In Word (not Windows, but still Microsoft, so I think this one is valid) there's a menu where you can fill in words that you want Word to autocorrect. There are two buttons in that window: 'OK' and 'Close', but they do exactly the same. One would think that 'Close' would simply close the window and forget the changes, but there's no 'undo' function there; no 'Cancel'. Illogical!
- I haven't seen this one myself, but a friend of mine told me he'd seen this one some time when trying to cancel a print job. The window had two buttons: 'Print' and 'Cancel', sounds logical? It is. But when he chose 'Cancel' he was presented a new window, asking if he really wanted to cancel the job. The buttons on that window? 'OK' and 'Cancel'. Funny but very unclear!
- When using an English application on a 'regional' Windows version, some buttons in the application will be in Windows' own language. (This happens the other way around when right clicking a file belonging to an English application.) Weird!
- Menu delay. Why would I want submenus to be displayed with a delay I can't change? Really annoying, so you end up clicking all the menu options to instantly open submenus. RSI!
- In the Mac OS, you say you don't want any messages when empying the trash. In Windows, you have the same choice. But when emptying, it still asks you if you're sure. I turned that off!
- On the desktop, when no Windows Explorer window is opened, there's no menu bar. So some über simple commands like 'Open', 'Print' and others like that can only be invoked using the contextual menu. Very unclear!

Are there others who think those points above are very annoying too? Do you experience other annoyances? Let's bash Windows here! (I say it's allowed, so go ahead!)

:rolleyes: ;) :p :D :) :cool:

[PaisanoMan]

Originally posted by Bengt77
Are there others who think those points above are very annoying too? Do you experience other annoyances? Let's bash Windows here! (I say it's allowed, so go ahead!)


I have some of the same complaints, except my recycle bin never bothers me with that silly question. Some of the others can be fixed if you are knowledgable enough (or use a tool like Microsoft's TweakUI).

To be fair, Jaguar is far from the human interface example that it should have been, especially coming from Apple. I feel there are some minor idiosyncrasies, and some really major mistakes (which have probably been hashed out in other threads).

I started on the Mac, but I've also been a Windows user for many years. If you know how to tame the beast, you can enjoy it as a very stable, pleasantly fast operating system (please don't flame; your mileage may vary!). It is quite ugly and prone to terrible user interface design, but quite frankly, you can't beat the performance of x86 hardware (yet).

When you use cross-platform apps like Photoshop and Maya all day long, the operating system specifics hardly matter anyway, as long as the system is stable and fast. To that end, my Windows box delivers. I use my PowerBook for everything else -- development, email, web, AIM -- but it'll be a long time before I can afford any Mac as fast as my PC for real work (but I'm keeping my fingers crossed for WWDC).

Mac OS X, simply put, is enjoyable to use; Windows lacks personality. Just bring on the speed boosts, Apple -- and the QuadroFX's, please! :)

[mrothenberg]

>>It's almost funny that they compare Panther to Longhorn already. Let's see what Apple has up it's sleeves in two years and then compare... journalists can be so ignorant, espeaicially when they are on the payroll of M$!

Groovebuster,

Now wait just a minute ... That's exactly what we said! (Not the part about being on Microsoft's payroll, which is absurd, but the part about Apple prepping a two-year lead on MS.)

In this piece, we cited internal Apple efforts to address specific performance and feature issues where the company itself feels it currently lags XP.

If the majority of these are indeed nailed in Panther and Apple sticks to its current annual cycle of major OS upgrades, it'll be a couple of revs ahead of Microsoft's 2005 release date for Longhorn, much of which which Microsoft is explicitly aiming at Mac OS X.

So, yes: Panther is way ahead of Longhorn, and should remain so for a long time. Where exactly do we disagree? :)

Matthew Rothenberg
Managing editor
Ziff Davis Internet

[Bengt77]

Originally posted by mrothenberg
Matthew Rothenberg
Managing editor
Ziff Davis Internet

Whoohoo! We have Matthew Rothenberg on the MacRumors forum!

:D

[tazznb]

Matthew Rothenberg
Managing editor
Ziff Davis Internet [/B][/QUOTE]

Now you are registered: Jul 2002
Location: New York, and are considered a macrumors newbie.

I have the same problem (I wouldn't mind it) if not for the fact that they show many that have registered MUCH later, and have the title of macrumors regular.

What's up with that?

I demand a recount. :mad:

BTW.... as a Windows user OSX Blows Windows outta the water.

The only thing stopping me from making an Apple tower purchase is that the current hardware is WAYYYYYY tooooo SLOOOOWWWWW; I'm not waiting for the 970 to appear: I'm waiting to see if it's fast as it SHOULD BE, before I consider a purchase. It would be an huge let-down to jump to a purchase (before seeing a performance test) that could end up being a very expensive mistake.

[Wardofsky]

Longhorn?

Microsoft need to brush up on their terminology...

[yzedf]

Windows XP can do more now than OS X Jaguar can.

[maradong]

Originally posted by ollywilson2003
Is this a bad comparison or what?

By the time Longhorn comes out 10.5 will also be out. (or coming out)
not really. longhorn will be released in january or febuary....
but 10.4 will be out for good.

[Bengt77]

Originally posted by tazznb
I demand a recount. :mad:

It won't matter; Bush will win anyway.

(Sorry, couldn't resist... :-)

[volfreak]

One of my Windows faves is:

1. Open a Windows Explorer window
2. Pop open a folder within a folder
3. Click the folder so the contents are displayed in the right-hand pane
4. Try and delete the parent folder (right-click and choose delete).

You can't do it because the "file system" believes the folder is in use because you are viewing its contents. The only way to delete it is to move so its contents aren't displayed in the right-hand pane.

One of my OSX comparisons is:
1. Open a file (say on the desktop for easy access)
2. Access the file icon on the desktop and change the filename.
3. Works like a charm.

So, in OSX, you can rename an open file, change a file or folder name or anything along those lines. No problem. Windows... Cough, hack, no can do.

One of many little niceties that make OS X so better.

[Kamu-San]

Originally posted by chimay
I use Windows 2000 at work (no choice) and since I bought my first Apple in Oct 2001 I haven't used any other OS at home at all (I used to use Linux for a number of years).


Too right!! I have XP and Linux at home (and NT! at work :-(( ) and my main comp is and will be my Mac. The OS X experience is just so much better.

BTW. Chimay, we might be neighbours ;-)

[Rustus Maximus]

Originally posted by tazznb
I demand a recount.

Originally posted by Bengt77
It won't matter; Bush will win anyway.
(Sorry, couldn't resist... :-)

Welllll, it depends on if you use the same Pentiums the Democrats were using...

[Bengt77]

Originally posted by volfreak
So, in OSX, you can rename an open file, change a file or folder name or anything along those lines. No problem. Windows... Cough, hack, no can do.

Not entirely true. Sometimes, open files can't be renamed. Disk images, for example, can't be renamed when they're mounted. Most of the times it does work like a charm, though. And the open folder stuff is a no-brainer. Windows is really stupid, sometimes.

Originally posted by yzedf
Windows XP can do more now than OS X Jaguar can.

Yeah, I agree, but that's only one side of the story. Usability is the other. And in that area, OS X can't be beaten. Well, not by XP anyway. Maybe by OS 9, but I doubt it.

[Bengt77]

Originally posted by Rustus Maximus
"The Power 970 doesn't cuddle! You just strap yourself in and feel the G's!"

Ahhh, something like the Goliath 'coaster in Six Flags Holland. What a ride it was, when I was there. You just strap yourself in and feel the G's!

:D

[Kamu-San]

Like someone said, you can do the same stuff on both XP and OS X, but OS X has more character. It's more fun :D

Working with the Finder is much nicer that working with Explorer, even when I have much more experience with Explorer.

Also, I feel that OS X has much better multitasking than XP. I was installing a game last night and tried to copy some files at the same time. My whole system slowed down to a crawl. I never had that on my Mac. (installing a game I mean :D , oh wait! I meant slowing down to a crawl while copying ;) ).

[MorganX]

Originally posted by yumpin yiminy
On a side note, MS' research pages on their website do have a link to the proposed 3D environment they were thinking about several years ago. Longhorn seems to kind of have that but still in its early stages looks like an Aqua clone.
---------
Desktop pictures don't make a GUI work any better nor does it improve a computer.

What part of it looks like an Aqua clone to you?

[yzedf]

Originally posted by Bengt77
Yeah, I agree, but that's only one side of the story. Usability is the other. And in that area, OS X can't be beaten. Well, not by XP anyway. Maybe by OS 9, but I doubt it.
Very true.

To all of you complaining about win2000 at work, I can only dream! We still use win98se!! :(

[hvfsl]

I don't really care, I still like Mac OS X better than XP, I actually prefer to use Mac OS 9 over XP. I think Windows 98-2000 is easier to use than XP, XP just seems to have lots of features thrown in without any thought to how they work with each other.
The only thing I have problems with Macs is their speed, but hopefully this will be sorted in June.

[Kamu-San]

Originally posted by hvfsl
The only thing I have problems with Macs is their speed, but hopefully this will be sorted in June.

Just the raw speed then, because for actually doing something with your comp the Mac is fast enough. Comparing my 800MHz TFT iMac to my P4 2.53GHz PC running XP.

Only times I wish for more speed is when starting iPhoto and adding effects in iMovie.

[Knox]

Originally posted by mrothenberg
So, yes: Panther is way ahead of Longhorn, and should remain so for a long time. Where exactly do we disagree? :)


I don't think it's a case of disagreeing with the points in the article, just the way it was put.

The title "Why Panther May Tear up Longhorn", the first line "Who will emerge as the king of the desktop OS jungle: Apple's Panther or Microsoft's Longhorn?" and the question at the end "If you put a Longhorn in a Panther's cage, which beast will triumph?" all imply that you are comparing the two OSes as a like-for-like comparison.

However, the rest of the article doesn't fit in with any of this as you don't actually compare them at all, but just list rumoured features, none of which* are guaranteed to appear in the final products.

If the majority of these are indeed nailed in Panther and Apple sticks to its current annual cycle of major OS upgrades, it'll be a couple of revs ahead of Microsoft's 2005 release date for Longhorn, much of which which Microsoft is explicitly aiming at Mac OS X.

See, if you had included that paragraph in the article it would have been much clearer. :)

* I don't know about the Longhorn ones, haven't been following development that closely

[DGFan]

This bad article is spreading so fast it is putting the Fizzer worm to shame. It's infected over half a dozen websites already!

[robotrenegade]

10.3 10.3 10.3 10.3 now now now now

[MorganX]

Originally posted by volfreak
One of my Windows faves is:

1. Open a Windows Explorer window
2. Pop open a folder within a folder
3. Click the folder so the contents are displayed in the right-hand pane
4. Try and delete the parent folder (right-click and choose delete).



Click on an MP3 or other file in Finder. Even if the file isn't playing in preview try to delete it or move it. Cough, hack. Microsoft fixed this in XP some time ago.

The comparisons between Longhorn and Panther are mainly because of the UI. I have yet to see OS X doing anything close to what the Longhorn demos are doing. And I have no doubt MS will make the thing somewhat usable, i.e. more than eye candy.

Panther is actually catching up to Windows XP in many areas, not just the ones mentioned in the article. Will I be able to plug in a digital camera and have it mount and be able to drag files or movies off it with no third-party software in Panther? Will I have access to all relevant finder menu from inside a folder with a right-click? Will the dock not slow down when the CPU on a 1GHz 1GB iMac is moderately busy? Will Safari be solid? Will Finder windows auto clean/arrange? Will there be a centralized install/uninstall? On and on.

I like OS X and Mac. Enough to switch. But I don't think Apple needs anyone encouraging them to think they are finished and can rest on their laurels. Time to actually finish! Because if they don't Microsoft will finish it for them.

I think the focus on the UI is a red herring. Stardock's Object desktop predates both OS X and XP. Microsoft has been working on this stuff since "Cairo" but the hardware base wasn't ready. MS would love for Apple to focus their limited resources on trying to pump up Aqua on a hardware platform that right now can't support it in a meaningful way in lieu of finishing Safari down to the finest detail and bolstering the UI functionality. I believe this is focused directly at SJ. They're going after the stylized design, and the UI. But there's nothing you can do about that. None of it is new, but SJ likes to get credit for being first and may sidetrack the whole company to keep bragging rights.

Apple needs to stay focused and just ignore MS for now, since they can't really stop them. Finish Safari, Optimize OS X and bolster the functionality. Get the entire line to 970s. Get iTunes over to Windows (and find out how the hell you're just now advertising for a Windows software engineer. SJ should fire himself for that one.)

Everyone at Apple should re-read tortoise and the hare. No one remembers who got out of the blocks first, only who won the race.

disclaimer: just my opinion.

[PretendPCuser]

Longhorn=Bull? Kind of Cattle? Following the Herd? Big dumb, stupid beast, with plenty of brawn, but not much above eating and getting fatter, dumber. So, are they parodying themselves at Microsoft, or are they slamming their user base calling them cattle?

Panther=Stealthy, independent, more towards the top of the food chain. Must hunt for food, not just bend over for it (ha ha).

Pretty funny, huh?
:p

[mangoduck]

Will there be a centralized install/uninstall?

why do we need this? most programs are uninstalled by trashing, and the only piecemeal files that may be left are prefs and misc app support. this may cause more problems in the end, because application support files that are used by other apps could potentially be deleted. no "dll hell" for the mac, thankyou.

i've always loathed the "add/remove programs" control panel (why is it there and not in some utilities folder?) because it's not exactly fast, and it launches a specific program's uninstaller half the time anyway. i don't think it's necessary.

[ktlx]

Originally posted by PretendPCuser
Panther=Stealthy, independent, more towards the top of the food chain. Must hunt for food, not just bend over for it (ha ha)

On the other hand, the world's big cats are being killed off and will likely all be gone in the not too distant future.

[DGFan]

Ok, since my last post was a little of a troll let me explain why I have this opinion.

The article is irrelevant because we don't know enough about Longhorn to really have a handle on its features. The Longhorn part of the article is just too much speculation.

Certainly the discussion on comparing Panther to XP is relevant. But that part was short and very superficial.

What parts of the GUI responsiveness are meaningful? On some XP machines it takes me 30 seconds to delete a single file sometimes. What is the OS doing? On OS X is the GUI responsiveness restricted to the Finder or the GUI in general (ie. all applications)?

OS X already has built in encryption. Certainly GUI tools for it would make it easier but it's already possible to make an encrypted sparse disk image. I don't see the need for transparent use of compression. Disks are cheap. And the fastest way to make Explorer crash in XP is to muck around inside a zip file that has 500 or so items. Try doing control-A, click and drag to a regular folder and half the time Explorer will either crash or just simply stop midway through (but not give any indication that it didn't copy all the files). But, again, is Stuffit not good enough for everyone?

This is where the article should have been focused, but it was just glossed over in favor of rampant speculation on a product not due for two years from a company with a history of vaporware and changing its mind.

[richie]

Originally posted by MorganX
Click on an MP3 or other file in Finder. Even if the file isn't playing in preview try to delete it or move it. Cough, hack. Microsoft fixed this in XP some time ago.


Sorry, what's this meant to do? Maybe I'm not doing what you're saying. I select the file, even start it playing in column mode, and move it to the trash... ? Just not clear what you mean..


Will I be able to plug in a digital camera and have it mount and be able to drag files or movies off it with no third-party software in Panther? Will I have access to all relevant finder menu from inside a folder with a right-click? Will the dock not slow down when the CPU on a 1GHz 1GB iMac is moderately busy? Will Safari be solid? Will Finder windows auto clean/arrange? Will there be a centralized install/uninstall? On and on.


I was going to go through this point by point, but that's getting off the thread a little. Just those last few points in particular sound like old windows hangovers. The Finder re-arranging stuff (more than it does already ;)) so I can't get it where I left it? Centralised install/uninstall? Blech :P

[MorganX]

Originally posted by mangoduck
why do we need this? most programs are uninstalled by trashing, and the only piecemeal files that may be left are prefs and misc app support. this may cause more problems in the end, because application support files that are used by other apps could potentially be deleted. no "dll hell" for the mac, thankyou.

i've always loathed the "add/remove programs" control panel (why is it there and not in some utilities folder?) because it's not exactly fast, and it launches a specific program's uninstaller half the time anyway. i don't think it's necessary.

Control Panel is a system utilities folder. But I think you're right. It would probably cause more problems in the end. Might encourage developers to get sloppy.

[ac2102]

It seems to me that there is an unusually long time between Longhorn and XP. Why is it that Apple manages to churn out top quality OS's annually while Microsoft seems happy to sit on its laurels?

Could it be that it is still the unfortunate situation that the Windows user base dominates and that the majority of those users will need more than an OS to change their computing way of life? Microsoft rightly has confidence, but it should watch its back! (Cue pun on panther chasing longhorn blah blah....)

Just a thought

[Kamu-San]

Originally posted by MorganX
Panther is actually catching up to Windows XP in many areas, not just the ones mentioned in the article. Will I be able to plug in a digital camera and have it mount and be able to drag files or movies off it with no third-party software in Panther?

Huh? I have a USB reader that reads the chip that comes out of my digicam (disk-like thingy, forgot name) and it works exactly like that.

[MorganX]

I'll PM since its getting off topic.

[DharvaBinky]

Originally posted by Bengt77
- In Word (not Windows, but still Microsoft, so I think this one is valid) there's a menu where you can fill in words that you want Word to autocorrect. There are two buttons in that window: 'OK' and 'Close', but they do exactly the same. One would think that 'Close' would simply close the window and forget the changes, but there's no 'undo' function there; no 'Cancel'. Illogical!

A smidge off topic, but that same feature has lead to a hilarious situation on our Campus (I work at a university). All of the systems in our 2 largest public computer labs are Dells with Office XP loaded on them. An exceedingly bored lab monitor harnessed the power of the auto-correct to create quite a bit of mayhem for a few days until they figured out it wasn't a virus.

The student went into the auto-correct feature and inserted many common words such as "the", "and", and "it" amongst many others, and had those mapped, in some cases, to common mispellings ("the" changed to "teh") and in other cases to more *interesting* combos (like "it" changed to "b*tch" but without the star!).

This caused an older student to have a nervous breakdown in the library when she became convinced that the people in the lab were "screwing with her" and "reading her mind". Sure, mental instability probably had a part to play, but thanks for MS making it so easy to crush a little lady's mind to dust.

:)

Dharvabinky

[MorganX]

Originally posted by Kamu-San
Huh? I have a USB reader that reads the chip that comes out of my digicam (disk-like thingy, forgot name) and it works exactly like that.

You don't need a reader in XP. It mounts the camera. You can use the Pictures Wizard (i.e. iPhoto) or access your images/movies directly from the mounted camera in My Computer. You can get your photos on either platform but it is more usable saves a lot of time and effort on XP. Kind of like iTunes. I can manage, burn, and play music on XP, but it sure is a lot more functional and elegant on the Mac.

I don't want to get any more off-topic. I just wanted to make the point that there are many usability features OS X can use and that Apple should keep moving forward and not be sidetracked by the Longhorn buzz. There's a lot to like in XP and my preference would be for all of those things to find their way into OS X. What's good for the goose ....

I'm actually happy to hear the rumor Panther is foregoing Piles for now. Means Apple may be focusing on filling in missing functionality and optimizing rather than throwing on another "me-first" feature for bragging rights.

[mrothenberg]

>>What parts of the GUI responsiveness are meaningful? On some XP machines it takes me 30 seconds to delete a single file sometimes. What is the OS doing? On OS X is the GUI responsiveness restricted to the Finder or the GUI in general (ie. all applications)?

DGFan,

Again, I think I need to explicate the source of the priorities we listed, since we apparently didn't make this clear enough in the original piece: These are areas (Apple insiders tell us) that the company itself has deemed "meaningful" when it comes to launching its next salvo at Windows.

Based on some of the responses I've seen, I'm afraid we weren't clear enough in asserting that these are Apple priorities for Panther -- not our own wish list.

(This column was our first attempt at collaboration by two fairly strong personalities, so maybe we need to perfect our process to achieve optimal clarity. Thanks to all for the input) :)

>>This is where the article should have been focused, but it was just glossed over in favor of rampant speculation on a product not due for two years from a company with a history of vaporware and changing its mind.

Perhaps, but what we were trying to achieve is a snapshot of where the companies will end up if they follow through on their current competitive efforts. Mary Jo's Microsoft sources are impeccable, IMHO, and they all point to a laundry list of features aimed at taking on Panther -- but not until 2005, when Mac OS X 10.3 will already be ancient history.

That'll be the case whether or not individual features drop off the Longhorn roadmap in the interim, yes?

I stand behind the currency of the information on both OSes, and I think that the conclusions will hold true despite any likely feature drift.

Matthew Rothenberg
Managing editor
Ziff Davis Internet

[Wry Cooter]

I hear Longhorn is going to trounce System 6.

[sturm375]

I own 2 Self-build Win-AMD Desktops, and 1 TiPB 500 MHz RevA. I believe both Windows and OS X have merrits. And if I had time to learn, I'd put Linux on all three boxes.

1) When OS X can run well on 90%+ of the PC hardware on the market, then you can have bragging rights. Windows does it best, followed closely by Linux, and a distant 3rd place is OS X. Until then, Apple has it relatively easy. They specify the hardware first, then fit the OS to the hardware.

2) I waited until OS 10.1 was announced to buy my $3500 TiPB. At the time it was top of the line. Less than a year later, OS 10.2 was announced. A major revision in 10.2 is Quartz Extreme. My $3500 investment, won't run Quartz Extreme. I guarentee you this doesn't happen in the Windows world. At this point, I give it a 70/30 chance that I will be able to even load the next major update.

Even given this, I wouldn't trade my TiPB for any notebook in the Windows World.


As for the DRM (Digital Rights Management) included in the next Windows version, it will most likely drive me to Linux. I am in the minority of Windows users though. Most are mindless lemmings that will accept whatever Mr. Bill tells them.

[Fender2112]

Originally posted by yumpin yiminy
... and for those who didn't catch it, As The Apple Turns (appleturns.com) has a link to this:
ftp://ftp.extremetech.com/pub/extremetech/news/winhec/WaveWindows.MOV
one of the possible effects in Longhorn.
As Appleturns points out, it is kind of pointless looking, isn't it? Like shaking a transparency/acetate to hear the noise it makes. Serves no discernable good GUI purpose...


I checked out some of the other videos in that folder and I have to ask about those spinning effects. If you're south of the equator , will they spin in the opposite direction?

[AmigaMac]

"XP's ability to create profiles that travel with them among machines"

The Mac OS already had this feature... unless I was dreaming this up, Jobs showed a demo (4 years ago) where 500 Macs were be logged into a Mac server and your profile would roam around with you no matter where you were, on Mac #1 or Mac #500... this was different from the Windows' concept in that it never downloaded your profile to the desktop and it kept it in sync no matter what. This is something Windows NT was very unreliable at doing, which made me hate NT even more back in the day. My profile would take about 10 minutes to download (upon login) and then it was a mystery if it was exactly how I had it on another computer down the hall. I have one word for you, ARGH!!!

[silvergunuk]

I think it's pretty unfair to compare Longhorn to a 2 year old Operating System. From what i've heard the new finder in Panther will be Cocoa and should perform alot faster with multiple processors..thats where the mac OS will really come to shine. As it is now the windows platform isnt too good with multiple processors and is still terribly unreliable. The only difference i've noticed in Longhorn compared to xp is that it doesnt look as rough as a bears arse...as much and a new dock which takes up too much space on the desktop. Also the screen shots i've seen of it, it's still having a bad anti aliasing problem..something osx had cracked back in 2000. As for the 3d features of longhorn. With quartz running through openGL I think it's very likely apple has been researching 3d features in its own os and probably held it back till newer and faster processors come out. We may see these features at the WWDC next month or Lion next year. Overall I think we should lay off the comparisons till 2005 when both of the platforms latests OS's are out.

[prewwii]

Originally posted by groovebuster
OMG... 2 years are a long time in OS business. It's almost funny that they compare Panther to Longhorn already. Let's see what Apple has up it's sleeves in two years and then compare... journalists can be so ignorant, espeaicially when they are on the payroll of M$! :D ;)

It would have been much more interesting to see a real feature comparison between XP and Panther, but I guess that would have been not very flattering for XP...

You're right. Comparing XP to Panther would only be half as much hot air. Panther being the hot air right now. At least when comparing Panther to Longhorn its hot air with hot air.

[jMc]

Originally posted by MorganX
You don't need a reader in XP. It mounts the camera. You can use the Pictures Wizard (i.e. iPhoto) or access your images/movies directly from the mounted camera in My Computer. You can get your photos on either platform but it is more usable saves a lot of time and effort on XP. Kind of like iTunes. I can manage, burn, and play music on XP, but it sure is a lot more functional and elegant on the Mac.


I don't need a reader or any special drivers for my ds-cam (Sony P51). The memory stick appears on the desktop over USB just like any other removable drive.

It must just depend on which camera/memory format you're using.

jx

[AppleMatt]

One thing that XP does better than OS X is disc recording, if you record just one file to a CD on X, it finalises the CD and thats it.

Microsoft got Roxio to help them and XP can create multi-session CD's from within the OS.

I hope panther solves this.

AppleMatt

[DharvaBinky]

Originally posted by sturm375

2) I waited until OS 10.1 was announced to buy my $3500 TiPB. At the time it was top of the line. Less than a year later, OS 10.2 was announced. A major revision in 10.2 is Quartz Extreme. My $3500 investment, won't run Quartz Extreme. I guarentee you this doesn't happen in the Windows world. At this point, I give it a 70/30 chance that I will be able to even load the next major update.


Your inability to run quartz extreme has nothing to do with Apple trying to obsolete their own hardware or lack of resources or planning on their part. QE aggressively uses a system's 3D accellerator to offload grahpics processing. When you dropped $3500 on your tibook, it had a nice GPU for the time, and enough VRAM to pull its weight (16Mb). Even a year later, though, the bar had been significantly raised in terms of GPU power and VRAM availability. Jagwire was designed to take advantage of that.

*WHEN* Windows2005 comes out and it supports DirectX offloading... Most windows users will not be able to take advantage of it. It will, with no doubt, have these things called minimum system requirements... and it'll probably be similar to QE... along the lines of "DirectX 8 compatible graphics card w/ 32Mb VRAM". sooo... only a Gforce 3 or later or a Radeon 9000 or later will do here.

Quit crying and help the economy by selling your dinosaur and buy a new 17". You know you wanna anyway...

;)

Dharvabinky

[prewwii]

Originally posted by hvfsl
........

The only thing I have problems with Macs is their speed, but hopefully this will be sorted in June.

Mac's don't have a problem with speed, the calendar you're using to time them is too fast.

[avkills]

Originally posted by MorganX
Panther is actually catching up to Windows XP in many areas, not just the ones mentioned in the article. Will I be able to plug in a digital camera and have it mount and be able to drag files or movies off it with no third-party software in Panther?Will there be a centralized install/uninstall? On and on.

For one thing, OS X already recognizes cameras when you plug them in w/o third party software. It's called ImageCapture and so far it has worked with every camera I've tried.

install/uninstall is pointless in OS X since all the information about the app is stored in one file except user preferences. Preferences are stored under the "/Users/username/library/preferences". OS X apps do not spread DLLs and other garbage all over the system drive like Windows does, which is why Windows requires the uninstall junk. In OS X you just delete the app...done!

-mark

[DGFan]

Thanks for the response.

Originally posted by mrothenberg
Again, I think I need to explicate the source of the priorities we listed, since we apparently didn't make this clear enough in the original piece: These are areas (Apple insiders tell us) that the company itself has deemed "meaningful" when it comes to launching its next salvo at Windows.


I can agree on the Finder. That thing just kills me its so slow. And from watching a PBS show years ago called Triumph of the Nerds I remember Jobs' obsession with startup time on the original Mac (paraphrasing: "If we can cut 10 seconds off the startup time and 10 million people use our computer that's 100 million seconds every day we saved!"). So that all makes sense :)

Originally posted by mrothenberg
I stand behind the currency of the information on both OSes, and I think that the conclusions will hold true despite any likely feature drift.


I guess my problem with this is twofold:

1) I really haven't seen a comprehensive list of features that will be in Panther. This is despite spending all day at Mac rumors news sites. I imagine this is due to the fact that if they spill the beans too soon Microsoft will get a head start on its copying effort.

2) Microsoft has talked about technology that will be in Longhorn but not much in the way of features. Yes, sometimes features are just put there for 3rd party developers to use. But as of yet I have seen no indication on what features will make it into Longhorn (which, considering it won't be out for 2 years, is as it should be).

So I guess the only thing I could draw from your article (and agree with) is the conclusiuon regarding Longhorn trying to include some Panther and Jaguar technology (only much, much later).

I hope once WWDC comes along and Microsoft starts releasing more information on likely features in Longhorn (which probably won't happen until after Panther hits the streets) we can have a more meaningful discussion on feature comparisons.

Jeff
Disk Golf FAN

[AppleMatt]

Originally posted by DGFan
I hope once WWDC comes along and Microsoft starts releasing more information on likely features in Longhorn (which probably won't happen until after Panther hits the streets) we can have a more meaningful discussion on feature comparisons.

And petition which of those we want in 10.4 ;)

AppleMatt

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by avkills
For one thing, OS X already recognizes cameras when you plug them in w/o third party software. It's called ImageCapture and so far it has worked with every camera I've tried.


You must be trying the better cameras Mark, because I need a special 3rd party driver to get my tiny, retro Aiptek to get recognized and my friend's Sony (with the disk drive built in) wont work via usb either.

There ARE drivers to all these cameras that you find working, but they've been pre-installed with the system software. Apple's been working hard to incorporate drivers for cameras AND printers into the OS. You'd probably get back a couple hundred megs of disk space if you removed the drivers that you don't need!

- j

[Bengt77]

Originally posted by AppleMatt
One thing that XP does better than OS X is disc recording, if you record just one file to a CD on X, it finalises the CD and thats it.

Go to DiskCopy, choose to make a Disk Image to burn. Under the burn options, check the box that says something like "Allow other sessions" - I don't remember what it says, but it's possible to do session burnng in Jaguar!

[Fukui]

Originally posted by herocero
take as long as you want MS. i'm still not going back. :D

Same here.

[hayesk]

I don't think the article was all that bad.

As per hardware performance:

I will always use a Mac as long as it's more fun and make ME faster. I couldn't care less how fast the computer is.

[hayesk]

Originally posted by AmigaMac
"XP's ability to create profiles that travel with them among machines"

The Mac OS already had this feature... unless I was dreaming this up, Jobs showed a demo (4 years ago) where 500 Macs were be logged into a Mac server and your profile would roam around with you no matter where you were, on Mac #1 or Mac #500... this was different from the Windows' concept in that it never downloaded your profile to the desktop and it kept it in sync no matter what. This is something Windows NT was very unreliable at doing, which made me hate NT even more back in the day. My profile would take about 10 minutes to download (upon login) and then it was a mystery if it was exactly how I had it on another computer down the hall. I have one word for you, ARGH!!!

You're thinking of NetBoot - yes it's still there. The entire boot image is stored on MacOS X server and the Mac boots from that.

MacOS X also has NetInfo where only your home directory gets stored on a server (and can be replicated around the network).

The only thing WinXP has that is desirable in MacOS X is switch users. Rumors are it (actually it and a little more) are coming in Panther.

[areyouwishing]

I think OS X is a fun os, its a more enjoyable experience. I think I am more productive in a windows environment because its easier to concentrate on work, the GUI is a lot less distracting..i could play with the dock for hours and never get bored.

My ideal setup is OS X at home, and Windows 2000 for work.

All in all, they both have their strengths, but as time goes on, both will encroach upon each others territory. I.E. seemless Quark on windows, and OS X offering Maya and X11 tools.

[blueBomber]

Originally posted by volfreak
One of my Windows faves is:

1. Open a Windows Explorer window
2. Pop open a folder within a folder
3. Click the folder so the contents are displayed in the right-hand pane
4. Try and delete the parent folder (right-click and choose delete).

You can't do it because the "file system" believes the folder is in use because you are viewing its contents. The only way to delete it is to move so its contents aren't displayed in the right-hand pane.

One of my OSX comparisons is:
1. Open a file (say on the desktop for easy access)
2. Access the file icon on the desktop and change the filename.
3. Works like a charm.

So, in OSX, you can rename an open file, change a file or folder name or anything along those lines. No problem. Windows... Cough, hack, no can do.

One of many little niceties that make OS X so better.

THIS HAS BOTHERED ME FOR YEARS!!!!! Sorry about the all caps, but I feel your pain on this one.

[PretendPCuser]

Too true. Hopefully not in either case...but maybe Apple could lobby the US Government for bailout money, making the gov't the conservationists?

Anyway, i'd rather be a big cat, than big cattle. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by ktlx
On the other hand, the world's big cats are being killed off and will likely all be gone in the not too distant future.

[PaisanoMan]

Originally posted by hayesk

I will always use a Mac as long as it's more fun and make ME faster. I couldn't care less how fast the computer is.

A good argument, but in some cases, the speed difference has a tangible effect on productivity.

My shiny new PowerBook runs Photoshop and Illustrator many, many times slower than even my crappy old 6400/200 (granted, it ran OS 8.5 with older versions of the apps). It's not unusable, but I am virtually unproductive because the computer is so unresponsive. (On the other hand, I didn't buy my PowerBook for graphics work, but for $2K you'd think I could tweak some vectors without getting up to stretch.)

[AppleMatt]

Originally posted by Bengt77
Go to DiskCopy, choose to make a Disk Image to burn. Under the burn options, check the box that says something like "Allow other sessions" - I don't remember what it says, but it's possible to do session burnng in Jaguar!

Scrummy I didn't know that, I asked before and people just said "no you can't"

Thanks!

AppleMatt

[MisterMe]

Originally posted by MorganX
....

Panther is actually catching up to Windows XP in many areas, not just the ones mentioned in the article. Will I be able to plug in a digital camera and have it mount and be able to drag files or movies off it with no third-party software in Panther? Will I have access to all relevant finder menu from inside a folder with a right-click? Will the dock not slow down when the CPU on a 1GHz 1GB iMac is moderately busy? Will Safari be solid? Will Finder windows auto clean/arrange? Will there be a centralized install/uninstall? On and on.

.... Just to be very clear, if you plug a USB camera into a MacOS X computer, it will automount on the Desktop. The camera appears just like any other volume. You can manipulate pictures on the camera as though they are on any other removeable medium. That is, you can move pictures from the camera to any other volume. You can move pictures from any other volume to the camera. No third party software is required. You don't even need ImageCapture or iPhoto.

Can you do this with all USB cameras? Of course not. Why not? Not all camera manufacturers use the complete specification of USB.

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by MorganX
Click on an MP3 or other file in Finder. Even if the file isn't playing in preview try to delete it or move it. Cough, hack. Microsoft fixed this in XP some time ago.


I don't know what version of OS X you are using, but this works as expected (apple-delete moves the selected file to the trash; right-click and select "Move to Trash" likewise moves it to the trash ...) in Jagur 10.2.6.


The comparisons between Longhorn and Panther are mainly because of the UI. I have yet to see OS X doing anything close to what the Longhorn demos are doing. And I have no doubt MS will make the thing somewhat usable, i.e. more than eye candy.


You don't see OSX windows gyrating like a belly dancer on speed when you bring them to the top or move them a notch over because:

(1) That iws just plain annoying
(2) It serves no usability purpose whatsoever.

You don't see OS X windows spinning around like your room after an all-night party because:

(1) Mac users tend to not enjoy getting motion sickness while trying to write a note in TextEdit
(2) Selecting text that is moving like that would drive me personally insane
(3) It serves no usability purpose whatsoever.

You are quite correct; OS X does nothing like what Windows does in their canned films (there is some question that these are even real screenshots). Why? Because Windows is doing stupid, useless, and frankly ugly things in their demos. That does not mean OS X is incapable of doing these things (see first-thing-to-turn-off-on-a-new-Mac Genie Effect), it means OS X is a bit too well designed to do these things on an ongoing basis.

IMHO, the Windows "demo" movies are somewhat unnerving (I do have to continue supporting Windows development ... I don't want my Windows machines to go on a permanent acid trip in 2005!)

As for "cool" ... hell, i've seen "cooler" useless eye candy come out of the Euro-Demo scene in the early 1990's ...

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by sturm375
2) I waited until OS 10.1 was announced to buy my $3500 TiPB. At the time it was top of the line. Less than a year later, OS 10.2 was announced. A major revision in 10.2 is Quartz Extreme. My $3500 investment, won't run Quartz Extreme. I guarentee you this doesn't happen in the Windows world. At this point, I give it a 70/30 chance that I will be able to even load the next major update.


That won't happen in the Windows world?!? What are you on? Windows XP came out and three of the five notebooks I had been looking at for purchase three months before would not support it (loading would invalidate the warranty). The one I did purchase eventually supported it (although many "special" buttons on the machine don't work under XP) four months later. The Epson scanner on my desktop (bought nine months before XP, the preceding Christmas) wasn't supported by Windows XP at all for over eight months!

Not exactly equivalent cases, but "forever backwards compatibility" is not exactly a by-word in the Windows world either! In fact, I do believe that you'll find older Mac hardware that still runs (although of course not necessarily supporting all the advanced features of) the latest Jaguar than you will find running Windows XP SP1 (no matter how much you turn off in XP, it still drags on my 800MHz P3 ... 450MHz machines are the minimum even supported).

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by AppleMatt
One thing that XP does better than OS X is disc recording, if you record just one file to a CD on X, it finalises the CD and thats it.

Microsoft got Roxio to help them and XP can create multi-session CD's from within the OS.

I hope panther solves this.

AppleMatt

I agree that this is very annoying. Add to that the fact that I don't get CD Text when I burn a disk from iTunes (not sure if this is an iTunes issue or a burner issue) so my car and home stereos only tell me I'm listening to "TRACK 12" of "CD 1" ...

On the other hand, I also find XP's built-in disk burning slow, unreliable and unusable (maybe my hardware is too old ... an old HP 4x/4x/8x drive) and the cost of Nero too low to mess with it. Not that I use Finder's built-in burning much either (I ship the files over to my Windows box and use Nero), but Apple has ample opportunity to leapfrog Windows here.

[sturm375]

Originally posted by jettredmont
That won't happen in the Windows world?!? What are you on? Windows XP came out and three of the five notebooks I had been looking at for purchase three months before would not support it (loading would invalidate the warranty). The one I did purchase eventually supported it (although many "special" buttons on the machine don't work under XP) four months later. The Epson scanner on my desktop (bought nine months before XP, the preceding Christmas) wasn't supported by Windows XP at all for over eight months!

Not exactly equivalent cases, but "forever backwards compatibility" is not exactly a by-word in the Windows world either! In fact, I do believe that you'll find older Mac hardware that still runs (although of course not necessarily supporting all the advanced features of) the latest Jaguar than you will find running Windows XP SP1 (no matter how much you turn off in XP, it still drags on my 800MHz P3 ... 450MHz machines are the minimum even supported).


Blame Epson for not supporting XP for your scanner, not M$. In all cases of pariferals(sp?), the OS producer is not, nor should be responsible for supporting every last device.

I am not familiar with your problem with the notebooks. Please provied the specs on these.

Your last point, supports my argument. You have an 800 MHz P3 running XP. Not well, but at least it runs. How old is this machine?

As I said, I paid top dollar for a top of the line notebook. Less than a year later, I had a dog that wouldn't totally run the OS. THE FREAKING OS. No OS should require that much of a computer.:mad: I would not have a problem with an application that won't run. That's to be expected, especially for a notebook.

Again, I say I still wouldn't trade this TiPB for any Windows notebook, even ones out now. Now maybe that 17" somebody mention....

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by sturm375
Blame Epson for not supporting XP for your scanner, not M$. In all cases of pariferals(sp?), the OS producer is not, nor should be responsible for supporting every last device.


You said such doesn't happen with Windows. Of course, you can blame every hardware incompatibility on the hardware maker, and MS is completely free of the blame!


I am not familiar with your problem with the notebooks. Please provied the specs on these.


I can't give complete specs on the other models (one was a Sony, one a Toshiba, one a Fujitsu, and one a different HP model), but the one I bought was an HP Pavilion. Don't have it with me for the model number specifics, though.


Your last point, supports my argument. You have an 800 MHz P3 running XP. Not well, but at least it runs. How old is this machine?


Three years now; two years old when XP came out.


As I said, I paid top dollar for a top of the line notebook. Less than a year later, I had a dog that wouldn't totally run the OS.


No. You said that one feature of the OS (Quartz Extreme) was not supported. For that matter, CD-burning in XP wasn't supported on my two-year-old machine other than the fact that I added a CD burner myself. "Sleep" on it doesn't work so hot, and my PIII-800 still doesn't support voice commands and input!


THE FREAKING OS. No OS should require that much of a computer.:mad: I would not have a problem with an application that won't run. That's to be expected, especially for a notebook.


But the OS runs fine, unless I completely misread your post. You are only missing Quartz Extreme, which is a speedup, not a core feature. The information on what QE supported was out there before you bought Jaguar, so you can't say you bought Jaguar for QE and were stunned to find it didn't work. I have Jaguar running on a non-Quartz Extreme desktop here at work, and I still see a massive performance improvement of it over 10.1, with no other problems. The OS runs fine on my hardware, even though a particular performance improvement is not being used.

The fact is: there will always be new features in software that require the latest hardware to run. No, the hardware you buy today will not run every bit of software out this Fall (especially not games!) This is not unique to the Apple world; the only thing which is unique here is that you can blame one company for both the OS and most of the hardware.

I mean, Panther might support the 970 chip. Should we all start a petition right now that Apple should upgrade all our computers bought in the last year to 970's?

Hmmmm .... maybe not a bad idea after all ...

[macdong]

Originally posted by MorganX
Will there be a centralized install/uninstall? On and on.

That, is one of the most unnecessary feature.
I don't why i need it for if i can just trash a folder to delete a program.

[MorganX]

>>I don't know what version of OS X you are using, but this works as expected (apple-delete moves the selected file to the trash; right-click and select "Move to Trash" likewise moves it to the trash ...) in Jagur 10.2.6.<<

Try moving it to another folder in 10.2.6

[MorganX]

Originally posted by macdong
That, is one of the most unnecessary feature.
I don't why i need it for if i can just trash a folder to delete a program.

You have prefs and other misc files depending on the software. I use Spring Cleaning. But this feature probably would do more harm that good in OS X.

[jxyama]

Here's an example of why I hate Windows:

Try deleting (removing from the Recycle Bin) or copying/moving quite a large number of files... The time indicated by Windows to complete the task will *never* match the actual amount of time.

This the single best example I know of showing how Windows just don't know what it's doing. I was actually quite amazed by OS 9 (and X) when the status window's time indicator said the job will be done in 5 minutes and it actually finished in pretty close to 5 min.

There's a way to do multi-session burn in OS X, but it makes the CD not readable by PCs. The only way to do PC-readable multi-session burn is to use Toast. In the interest of being able to share pictures/files/music with all the users, regardless of the OS, I hope this gets fixed in Panther. (Basically, I am asking for Apple to include Toast-like capability in the OS.)

[richard5mith]

Things that annoy me on OS X...

- Open/Save dialogs. Windows offers lots of different view options, much more sensible creation of new folders, ability to organise existing files in that window like any other explorer window and various other file management things that sometimes it's quite handy to be able to do before you save a new file.
- Folders not appearing first. This still annoys me on the Mac after all these years, at least make it an option to have my folders first like Windows. I want my folders first alphabetically, then files afterwards alphabetically. Not mixed up.
- Enter to open a file. What idiot thought CMD+O was the way to do this? Enter to rename is totally idiotic, as I'm much more likely to be opening an item than renaming it. Select some files, press enter, they all launch. Simple.
- Bad Keyboard control. I live my life by the keyboard and like to use the mouse as little as possible, but keyboard access on OS X is pretty awful.
- No fast window switching. Switching to another window on OS X is usually two actions away (right click on dock icon for window list, click on window wanted). Windows listing of all open windows (which are much more important to me than open applications) on the taskbar is much more usable. Why do I only see what windows I have open when they're minimised? It's so easy to have one window hidden behind another and I wouldn't even know it was there.
- Terrible Contextual menus. They're everywhere on Windows and it's great. Getting better on OS X, but still nowhere near what they should be. Put the options I want as close to where I am as possible please.

This is especially aparent when you combine Windows ability to customise these menus, allowing me to right click a folder and "Add to Zip" or "Send via Email" or "Play in Winamp". Incredible timesaver.
- A status bar in an explorer window that doesn't tell me the total size of all the items I've selected yet for some reason feels it necessary to constantly tell me how much disk space I have on the current volume. I shouldn't have to open another window to get this info.

Things that annoy me in Windows...
- Add/Remove Programs is one of the stupidest concepts I've ever seen. "Hey! here's an idea. To remove a program lets make somebody go into control panel, then open up another program, find the thing they want to uninstall, and then launch another program from that to actually do the deletion!". For extra points, see programs that ask you for the original CD's in order to uninstall them.
- Stupid hardware installation. If you don't need me to do anything to make a device work, don't ask me to do anything. Even if its just to keep on clicking "Next". Don't even tell me you've found new hardware, just make the device start working.
- Lack of decent command line. Yay for OS X UNIX underpinnings. Nothing like a quick Perl script to save the day.
- Trying to access a folder on another machine that requires a password pops up an authentication box. This is good. Trying to print to a printer on another machine that requires a password causes a print error. You have to authenticate by trying to access a folder on the machine first. This is pure evil.
- Cancelling a print job is sometimes like trying to raise the titanic with a rope gripped between your teeth.
- Lack of system wide spell cheker.
- Programs that use skins. WHAT IS THE POINT? Don't make me learn your self-designed interface because you think it's better. Give me a program that looks like every other program and acts like every other program so I don't need to guess the outcome of clicking on each item.
- Programs that dump stuff in 400 locations and 20 keys in the registry. Especially ones that set themselves to launch at startup (which I quickly have to remove from the registry again).
- Virii. Even though I've only ever had one. I like the fact that nobody bothers writing them for the Mac.


I have to say that in all my years of using Windows (and for the last few with OS X) they've both always worked without a hitch. So I'm happy using either. There is something strangely comfortable about OS X though, even though work wise, I'm much more efficient on 2K.

[MorganX]

>>*WHEN* Windows2005 comes out and it supports DirectX offloading... Most windows users will not be able to take advantage of it.<<

They already can and Windows already does that. If you mean specifically in the UI, it has been able to do that since Windows 2000. See Stardock's Windows FX.

[richard5mith]

One more quick note. Another bad thing about Windows is it's constantly increasing system requirements.

From a normal usage/graphical/eye candy point of view, Windows 2000 doesn't really do anything 98 couldn't. It's more stable by miles, but you're still doing the same things as you always were. However, try and run Win2K on the lower spec PC's you can run 98 on. You can't. It'll be unusable.

So what changed? Stability = bloat it seems.

OS X seems the opposite right now, each new version is faster on the same hardware.

A good example of MS is their Quartz Extreme rip off. It requires a graphics card with 128Mb RAM. QE requires one with 16Mb, 32Mb recommended. So not only will they be three years late to the party, they need 8x the power too.

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by MorganX
>>I don't know what version of OS X you are using, but this works as expected (apple-delete moves the selected file to the trash; right-click and select "Move to Trash" likewise moves it to the trash ...) in Jagur 10.2.6.<<

Try moving it to another folder in 10.2.6

Um, okay. For sport I even started playing it in Finder before trying to move it around ... still moved just fine (although it did stop playing).

What problem do you have moving an MP3 file around in Finder?

[MorganX]

Originally posted by jettredmont
Um, okay. For sport I even started playing it in Finder before trying to move it around ... still moved just fine (although it did stop playing).

What problem do you have moving an MP3 file around in Finder?

I personally don't have a problem. You just deselect the file and you can move it.

However, I was drawing a parallel to a complaint about Windows limiting what you can do in Explorer to an open file.

In Finder, if you highlight a file and preview it, you cannot move it until you deselect in so that it is no longer being previewed. OS X will copy the file and tell you the move cannot be completed because the file is in use.

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by MorganX
I personally don't have a problem. You just deselect the file and you can move it.

However, I was drawing a parallel to a complaint about Windows limiting what you can do in Explorer to an open file.

In Finder, if you highlight a file and preview it, you cannot move it until you deselect in so that it is no longer being previewed. OS X will copy the file and tell you the move cannot be completed because the file is in use.

Odd. Doesn't do that for me. Just moves the file and stops the preview itself.

[DGFan]

Originally posted by jettredmont
You are quite correct; OS X does nothing like what Windows does in their canned films (there is some question that these are even real screenshots). Why? Because Windows is doing stupid, useless, and frankly ugly things in their demos. That does not mean OS X is incapable of doing these things (see first-thing-to-turn-off-on-a-new-Mac Genie Effect), it means OS X is a bit too well designed to do these things on an ongoing basis.


I remember seeing a movie of OS X with the genie effect slowed down. They minimized a movie and showed that the movie still played while the genie effect was going on. Pretty slick. Quartz has the power (so to speak) it's just used in more subtle ways.

[job]

Originally posted by sturm375
Blame Epson for not supporting XP for your scanner, not M$. In all cases of pariferals(sp?), the OS producer is not, nor should be responsible for supporting every last device.

OS 10.1 shipped with generic and product specific 3rd party device drivers. Most of these were print drivers and thus were intergrated into the OS itself.

As I said, I paid top dollar for a top of the line notebook. Less than a year later, I had a dog that wouldn't totally run the OS.

Actually, if you look on the 10.2 box, it mentions QE running with 16MB of VRAM. I'm not sure if this is false advertising or a typo, but it's there.

[HornetOSX]

Originally posted by MorganX
I personally don't have a problem. You just deselect the file and you can move it.

However, I was drawing a parallel to a complaint about Windows limiting what you can do in Explorer to an open file.

In Finder, if you highlight a file and preview it, you cannot move it until you deselect in so that it is no longer being previewed. OS X will copy the file and tell you the move cannot be completed because the file is in use.

Can you explain exactly how your seeing this issue .... I've tried every combo I can think of to see it( I'm not saying the bug does not exist I just cant get it to happen) tried these
In column view:
started the mp3 playing. right clicked copied pasted on a differnt HD, and in a different folder on the same HD WHILE playing
started playing .. then dragged and dropped it to different HD as well as new folder .. with and without it playing
only thing that happened is if I moved the MP3 on the same disk .. just to a different folder the preview playing stopped

[Frobozz]

Originally posted by Kamu-San
Pretty convenient for Microsoft. They never actually innovate, they just wait and see what works in the market and then release and aggressively promote their propietry variant of the technology, which is usually somewhat less complex to use that their competitor's (older) offerings.

See IE, C#, SQL server.


What also fits the pattern is that they start a hype *years* in advance. This makes competitors nervous and makes buyers wait and reluctant to look at a competitor's product.

Anyway, since M$ strength (believe it or not) is to make an easier to use variant of existing technology, it will be interesting to see how they compete with Apple. I doubt if they can improve on the usability of Apple's products.

You're right on the money. Well put.

[DGFan]

Things that annoy me on OS X...

- Open/Save dialogs. Windows offers lots of different view options, much more sensible creation of new folders, ability to organise existing files in that window like any other explorer window and various other file management things that sometimes it's quite handy to be able to do before you save a new file.

>>ME>> You want the open and save dialogs to be full explorer/finder? If I want to move files I do it with the right tool, I don't use the dialog. Weird.

- Folders not appearing first. This still annoys me on the Mac after all these years, at least make it an option to have my folders first like Windows. I want my folders first alphabetically, then files afterwards alphabetically. Not mixed up.

>>ME>> I don't have a problem with sorting by type. Works fine.

- Enter to open a file. What idiot thought CMD+O was the way to do this? Enter to rename is totally idiotic, as I'm much more likely to be opening an item than renaming it. Select some files, press enter, they all launch. Simple.

>>ME>> It's only idiotic because it's not work you are used to. Enter makes more sense to me because, as a mouse user, I tend to only use the keyboard to rename something. And Enter is alot easier to find than F2.

- Bad Keyboard control. I live my life by the keyboard and like to use the mouse as little as possible, but keyboard access on OS X is pretty awful.

>>ME>> I think it's just fine. Shortcuts are everywhere.

- No fast window switching. Switching to another window on OS X is usually two actions away (right click on dock icon for window list, click on window wanted). Windows listing of all open windows (which are much more important to me than open applications) on the taskbar is much more usable. Why do I only see what windows I have open when they're minimised? It's so easy to have one window hidden behind another and I wouldn't even know it was there.

>>ME>> I don't cmd-tab much so I wouldn't know. When an app has multiple windows open I just right click on the app and choose the window. Pretty much the same thing I do in XP because those tiny icons don't tell me much (oooh, I have 7 browsers open - which explorer icon is the one I want?)

- Terrible Contextual menus. They're everywhere on Windows and it's great. Getting better on OS X, but still nowhere near what they should be. Put the options I want as close to where I am as possible please.

This is especially aparent when you combine Windows ability to customise these menus, allowing me to right click a folder and "Add to Zip" or "Send via Email" or "Play in Winamp". Incredible timesaver.

>>ME>> Oh god no. I hate the fact that windows puts all sorts of useless junk in contextual menus that I don't know how to get rid of.

- A status bar in an explorer window that doesn't tell me the total size of all the items I've selected yet for some reason feels it necessary to constantly tell me how much disk space I have on the current volume. I shouldn't have to open another window to get this info.

>>ME>> Yeah, that would be a nice featuer.

Things that annoy me in Windows...
- Add/Remove Programs is one of the stupidest concepts I've ever seen. "Hey! here's an idea. To remove a program lets make somebody go into control panel, then open up another program, find the thing they want to uninstall, and then launch another program from that to actually do the deletion!". For extra points, see programs that ask you for the original CD's in order to uninstall them.

>>ME>> Yeah. How about click and drag install or delete?

- Stupid hardware installation. If you don't need me to do anything to make a device work, don't ask me to do anything. Even if its just to keep on clicking "Next". Don't even tell me you've found new hardware, just make the device start working.

>>ME>> I had all sorts of HW problems but then my HW is pretty old.

- Lack of decent command line. Yay for OS X UNIX underpinnings. Nothing like a quick Perl script to save the day.
- Trying to access a folder on another machine that requires a password pops up an authentication box. This is good. Trying to print to a printer on another machine that requires a password causes a print error. You have to authenticate by trying to access a folder on the machine first. This is pure evil.
- Cancelling a print job is sometimes like trying to raise the titanic with a rope gripped between your teeth.
- Lack of system wide spell cheker.
- Programs that use skins. WHAT IS THE POINT? Don't make me learn your self-designed interface because you think it's better. Give me a program that looks like every other program and acts like every other program so I don't need to guess the outcome of clicking on each item.

>>ME>> Skins.. Ugh...

- Programs that dump stuff in 400 locations and 20 keys in the registry. Especially ones that set themselves to launch at startup (which I quickly have to remove from the registry again).

>>ME>> LOL, see install

- Virii. Even though I've only ever had one. I like the fact that nobody bothers writing them for the Mac.

>>ME>> But if some Mac users get their wish and Macs become popular that will change in a hurry

I have to say that in all my years of using Windows (and for the last few with OS X) they've both always worked without a hitch. So I'm happy using either. There is something strangely comfortable about OS X though, even though work wise, I'm much more efficient on 2K.

[sturm375]

Originally posted by job
OS 10.1 shipped with generic and product specific 3rd party device drivers. Most of these were print drivers and thus were intergrated into the OS itself.

Apple didn't create these drivers. The hardware manufactures submitted these drivers to be included in OS X. At least that is how it works in the windows world. I can't imagine Apple writing a driver for an HP laserjet.


Originally posted by job
Actually, if you look on the 10.2 box, it mentions QE running with 16MB of VRAM. I'm not sure if this is false advertising or a typo, but it's there.

Actually the Rev A TiPB, which I have, only came with an 8 MB ATI video card. About a month after I ordered my TiPB, Rev B came out with a larger video card. This didn't bother me at the time, until they anounced the requirments for QE, a part of the OS.

Back to the topic. I would like to see a comparison of Comand Line (ie Linux w/o GUI v. OS X Terminal w/o GUI). That would be intersting.:cool:

[richard5mith]

Originally posted by DGFan
I remember seeing a movie of OS X with the genie effect slowed down. They minimized a movie and showed that the movie still played while the genie effect was going on. Pretty slick. Quartz has the power (so to speak) it's just used in more subtle ways.

Just hold down shift when you minimise a window to see it in slow motion.

[macdong]

Originally posted by MorganX
You have prefs and other misc files depending on the software. I use Spring Cleaning. But this feature probably would do more harm that good in OS X.

When I want to "completely" delete a program, I do a search with the name of the program and delete everything that's related to the program (App Support, User Pref, etc.). Takes 5 seconds, no Spring Cleaning needed :D

P.S. I tried that application a while ago. can't quite get used to it. :p

[job]

Originally posted by sturm375
Apple didn't create these drivers. The hardware manufactures submitted these drivers to be included in OS X. At least that is how it works in the windows world. I can't imagine Apple writing a driver for an HP laserjet.

I can understand your point.

I merely wanted to point out that generic print drivers were also included so I could connect my ancient HP and still have it print, albeit with limited functionality.

[job]

Originally posted by richard5mith
Just hold down shift when you minimise a window to see it in slow motion.

That is cool.

I didn't even know you could do that.

[MorganX]

Originally posted by HornetOSX
Can you explain exactly how your seeing this issue .... I've tried every combo I can think of to see it( I'm not saying the bug does not exist I just cant get it to happen) tried these
In column view:
started the mp3 playing. right clicked copied pasted on a differnt HD, and in a different folder on the same HD WHILE playing
started playing .. then dragged and dropped it to different HD as well as new folder .. with and without it playing
only thing that happened is if I moved the MP3 on the same disk .. just to a different folder the preview playing stopped

Perhaps it's a bug. After some experimentation it is when moving from one volume to another. It will move on the same volume. I have an external firewire for a second volume.

[WorldWithoutLuv]

This is going to sound really dumb, but is Apple making Longhorn, or Microsoft?

[i_am_a_cow]

Originally posted by tazznb
Matthew Rothenberg
Managing editor
Ziff Davis Internet

Now you are registered: Jul 2002
Location: New York, and are considered a macrumors newbie.

I have the same problem (I wouldn't mind it) if not for the fact that they show many that have registered MUCH later, and have the title of macrumors regular.

What's up with that?
[/B][/QUOTE]

ME TOO :mad: but mine is worse. i registered a LONG time ago. :mad: :mad:

[HornetOSX]

Originally posted by MorganX
Perhaps it's a bug. After some experimentation it is when moving from one volume to another. It will move on the same volume. I have an external firewire for a second volume.

humm tried it with my external Firewire drive , my internal ATA, and my internal scsi cant get it to happen.... quite odd


what version of OSX ???? I'm running 10.2.6

[job]

Originally posted by i_am_a_cow
ME TOO :mad: but mine is worse. i registered a LONG time ago. :mad: :mad:

It's about post count, not registration date.

Also, don't spam your way to "macrumors regular" or to an avatar. That is a surefire way to piss the mods and admins off.

[yumpin yiminy]

Originally posted by MorganX
What part of it looks like an Aqua clone to you?


My Aqua clone remark was cheap, as cheap as a hi-res screenshot of a PC game- circa 1996.

some others have touched on what I was getting at.

The screenshots I've seen of Longhorn are all seemingly trying to sell the notion that it is new and improved. Just like Apple did early on with Aqua. Showing screenshots and window tricks doesn't even come close to demonstrating user experience. With GUIs, that is all tactile, hence an understanding of it depends upon using it yourself.
And, when it comes down to knowing your machines performance using that OS, well, you can guess that the machine you have when you see your first demo won't run the final version. But, lookit-the-pretty-picture approach to getting people to understanding that the OS they buy is different is something I thought would only happen once in a while.
For instance, Win95 was a huge shift in terms of user interface for MS' system. Since then the changes have been mostly under the hood. To go the route of the paint job and action stripes with a docked set of widgets (a la Active Desktop plus Dock plus Confabulator) just makes it seem less worthwhile.
But, I've used computers for over 20 years and I guess I need to sit down at one and use it for a while vs. jumping for joy at a screenshot or movie clip. Even Job's demos don't mean much to me anymore.

(You know this is really off topic but I am just going to blurt this out. I notice a lot of you are using OSX. I got to thinking about how showing something cool doesn't equate to using something cool.
So, it just leads me to think that allowing OS 9 users to actually use a very-stripped down version of OSX just might increase sales.
I don't mean the whole optimized ball of waX,but, I don't just mean a Theme either. OS9 users (&earlier) should have the option to experience X. I don't know how this would work but I know that many many features would not be in the demo in this demo( PDF based Quartz for example). But the under the hood UI stuff (revamped Finder, a non-movable Dock). Charge $20-$50 bucks for it or something. If Apple lived up to its early myths, it would give those uncoverted a reason to be tempted, a taste, a bite....
If Apple really wanted to increase sales, Just Let Them Use It.)

[AppleMatt]

Originally posted by job
That is cool.

I didn't even know you could do that.

You can do it in iTunes aswell, with the browse and album art buttons.

Now I'm gonna go get a life.

AppleMatt

[AppleMatt]

Originally posted by DGFan
I remember seeing a movie of OS X with the genie effect slowed down. They minimized a movie and showed that the movie still played while the genie effect was going on. Pretty slick. Quartz has the power (so to speak) it's just used in more subtle ways.

OK I've started another thread so that I don't send this one off-topic...can anyone help?

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27411

AppleMatt

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by i_am_a_cow
Now you are registered: Jul 2002
Location: New York, and are considered a macrumors newbie.

I have the same problem (I wouldn't mind it) if not for the fact that they show many that have registered MUCH later, and have the title of macrumors regular.

What's up with that?


ME TOO :mad: but mine is worse. i registered a LONG time ago. :mad: :mad:

People: "newbie" refers to your post count, not how long you've been a member!

[Wry Cooter]

Originally posted by mrothenberg

I stand behind the currency of the information on both OSes, and I think that the conclusions will hold true despite any likely feature drift.

Matthew Rothenberg
Managing editor
Ziff Davis Internet [/B]

And a guy at IDG thought Steve Jobs would be Keynote Speaker At MacWorld Expo New York 2003.

[Sherman]

Actually I think that Panther may be 3-4 years old by the time Longhorn comes out.

Windows '97 anyone?

[Sleix]

Originally posted by Sherman
Actually I think that Panther may be 3-4 years old by the time Longhorn comes out.

Windows '97 anyone?
Nah, they'll do like they did with Windows XP. Release it on time with plenty of software security issues and bugs. They'll find that they made a mockery of themselves, so they will deny that this is the ultimate windows and work on something bigger and more bloated than the last version, which they will claim was the reason why they released this 'interim' product.

[BaghdadBob]

Originally posted by MorganX
Will I be able to plug in a digital camera and have it mount and be able to drag files or movies off it with no third-party software in Panther?
Uhhhh...I havn't read this whole thread (been busy loading my truck all day, no time) but I can. In Jaguar. Always could. I could actually do this in 9.6. 400 MHz G3 iMac.

Just had to jump in.

[BaghdadBob]

Originally posted by jettredmont
People: "newbie" refers to your post count, not how long you've been a member!
Yeah, damn, I'm 2/3 of the way to an avatar. Slackers ;)

[job]

Originally posted by BaghdadBob
I could actually do this in 9.6. 400 MHz G3 iMac.

I assume that's '96, as in "1996," not System 9.6 since there never was a System 9.6, right? ;)

[BaghdadBob]

Originally posted by job
I assume that's '96, as in "1996," not System 9.6 since there never was a System 9.6, right? ;)
Ack, I mean 9.1 :rolleyes:

This brings me to another good point about MacOS v Windows...

Anybody ever used that abused child of an OS ME? My G/F had it for a long time. You know what? She wanted to downgrade to 95. She was sick of it. Windows would NOT LET HER do this. Absolutely not.

The reason I thought of this is I was confusing my 8.xs and 9.xs. Why? Because I accidentally did a fresh install of 8.something over 9.1 once. Let me do it. Worked fine. Reinstalling 9.1 worked fine too. No crashing, no problems, no FORMATTING. None. Sweet. Of course, installing OSX worked like a dream too -- except for my 30% functional internal CD-ROM that made it take three hours.....

[tazo]

Originally posted by i_am_a_cow
Now you are registered: Jul 2002
Location: New York, and are considered a macrumors newbie.

I have the same problem (I wouldn't mind it) if not for the fact that they show many that have registered MUCH later, and have the title of macrumors regular.

What's up with that?


ME TOO :mad: but mine is worse. i registered a LONG time ago. :mad: :mad: [/B][/QUOTE]

it goes by post count, i think 50 is regular.

I really dont see what people dislike about Longhorn. honestly. maybe somebody could clue me in on this one because AFAIK it looks like a quality OS.

[whooleytoo]

Originally posted by DGFan
Things that annoy me on OS X...

- Open/Save dialogs. Windows offers lots of different view options, much more sensible creation of new folders, ability to organise existing files in that window like any other explorer window and various other file management things that sometimes it's quite handy to be able to do before you save a new file.

>>ME>> You want the open and save dialogs to be full explorer/finder? If I want to move files I do it with the right tool, I don't use the dialog. Weird.


OSX's open/save dialogs are the features I hate most. The fact that you can't switch from column mode, you can't sort by anything other than name; and many aren't resizeable so you can't even read the entire filename if the names are long. A major fumbling of the ball by Apple, IMO.

The other thing I really dislike about OSX is the lack of UI consistency in Apple's iApps. Why won't Cmd-W close iPhoto's main window, but it will close iTunes main window? Wouldn't it have made more sense to have Open and Save in iPhoto - rather than Import and Export. Who here knows the keystroke shortcut for Import and Export off the top of their head? Grrr.. :)

Mike.

[barkmonster]

From way back near the beginning of the thread...

***** THAT, damn, XP sucks in any way you look at it, the only way to use XP is having an 1+ GHz P4, with at least 256 MB RAM, while I use jaguar on an G3/400 MHz with 192 MB RAM, and I have no problems... I am really wondering about the good things from XP. I use OS X with lots of pleasure, and I don't like XP (which I sometimes use because of games).

I don't know what you use you're mac for but I'd say it's the absolute opposite case!!

Especially for cpu intensive software where you either can or can't run X amount of plug-ins/tracks rather than the kind where you either wait or wait longer! for the filter/render to finish!

I use Protools LE, I use it on a G3 with 320Mb under OS 9, my mac is not the best performer these days but it gets me by till I can afford a newer model.

I know that to get the best performance out of it needs at least 512Mb if not 1Gb of RAM under OS X. This, on a single cpu system, is barely matching the speed of Protools LE 5 under OS 9 for most people due to the massive overhead of OS X (and the fact software can't use 85% of the cpu anymore and guarantee to get it because OS X can actually multitask). This all applies to macs with AGP graphics, for people with PCI graphics macs, that's the beige G3s, B & W G3s and Yikes! G4s, there's no way of running it, OS X just sucks so much cpu power away that models that old are worthless for protools.

[mkaake]

Originally posted by AppleMatt
One thing that XP does better than OS X is disc recording, if you record just one file to a CD on X, it finalises the CD and thats it.

Microsoft got Roxio to help them and XP can create multi-session CD's from within the OS.

I hope panther solves this.

AppleMatt

on both of my grandparents xp boxes (i just built one of them - 2.53 p4 512 333mhz ddr, 533 fsp, etc) the burn feature that's built into windows has never worked. i've tried on several occasions to burn from the os, and all i get is a coaster.

matt

[AppleMatt]

Originally posted by mkaake
on both of my grandparents xp boxes (i just built one of them - 2.53 p4 512 333mhz ddr, 533 fsp, etc) the burn feature that's built into windows has never worked. i've tried on several occasions to burn from the os, and all i get is a coaster.

matt

I don't want to send this completely OT, but Service Pack 1 contained some (two I believe) fixes for CD burning, if you haven't already, give that a try, or I suppose wait for SP2.

Miricles happen, Microsoft might eventually get it right!

AppleMatt

[mkaake]

Originally posted by AppleMatt
I don't want to send this completely OT, but Service Pack 1 contained some (two I believe) fixes for CD burning, if you haven't already, give that a try, or I suppose wait for SP2.

Miricles happen, Microsoft might eventually get it right!

AppleMatt

lol - i don't think they'll ever get it right... i've been watching for a long time now...

yeah, sp1 was installed. just one of those things i suppose.
the funny thing is my GRANDFATHER (and my grandmother for that matter) both want to downgrade from XP because of their experience with it, but because quicken isn't back compaitble (can't export the history to a win 98 or 2000 machine, very strange), they've just stuck with it.

now when my grandparents can tell you it's a bad os...

:o)

matt

[MacKid]

Originally posted by whooley
OSX's open/save dialogs are the features I hate most. The fact that you can't switch from column mode, you can't sort by anything other than name; and many aren't resizeable so you can't even read the entire filename if the names are long. A major fumbling of the ball by Apple, IMO.

Mike.

Just thought I'd jump in and say: actually, not only are the save windows resizable, but the tabs in column saving mode are also resizable (if in some instance you encounter a program which doesn't have resizable save windows (which I don't know of)) , so you can see the whole filename, unless it's like 86,000 characters long.

[RC23]

Im just posting here so i can make a thread :o

[shycoy]

Originally posted by mangoduck
heh.

haah!

HHAHA AHA AHAH AHHA A RH A HR H H AH AA HHA HHGHG GHA RHAHAAHAAAAAH AH AH H AHA hh...[wheeze]...
i'll take another round of this please ;-)
it's pretty much how I feel about this article even if it's, to me, more a new journalist mistake than a true article on computers !!!
you CAN'T COMPARE OS X to WINDAZ end of discussion !!!!

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by MacKid
Just thought I'd jump in and say: actually, not only are the save windows resizable, but the tabs in column saving mode are also resizable (if in some instance you encounter a program which doesn't have resizable save windows (which I don't know of)) , so you can see the whole filename, unless it's like 86,000 characters long.

Okay, open TextEdit. New document, click "Save". Those columns sure aren't sizeable!

Try Project Builder, same thing (TextEdit and PB share a significant amount of code, I believe, so that's not overly surprising).

Go to iTunes and Export Playlist ... still no column resizing.

For the life of me, I can't even see where one should be grabbing the columns to resize; they're all scroll bar, and no part of the bar appears to move the edge of the columns one way or the other.

Can you please point out these applications which have a working "Save" box?

Personally, my main gripe with the Save box is clearly Windows-derived (meaning I'm so used to being able to do this on Windows that it bothers me that I can't do it on OS X): I can't click on the name of an existing file then modify it; I have to fully type in the name of the new file. I hate typing text that's right there about ten pixels from where I'm typing it! In fairly "rote" operations this becomes a royal pain in the left buttock.

[Wry Cooter]

Originally posted by jettredmont
Okay, open TextEdit. New document, click "Save". Those columns sure aren't sizeable!


I have trouble considering this a legitimate complaint. There is no individual column resizing, but after all, one is merely saving a document. The columns do resize as a group... you can grab the corner of the save dialog 'sheet' to widen the finder view. The columns seemed to be based on the width of the file names. All visible columns widen until another column the same width as the original can pop in... 3 column view... 4... 5 column view, and so on.

[elmimmo]

Originally posted by avkills
install/uninstall is pointless in OS X since all the information about the app is stored in one file except user preferences. Preferences are stored under the "/Users/username/library/preferences". OS X apps do not spread DLLs

Well, besides ~/Library/Preferences it seems like it has been a long time since you looked at folders such as

/Library/StartupItems/
~/Library/StartupItems/
/Library/Application Support/
~/Library/Application Support/
~/Library/Preferences/loginwindow.plist

Excluding applications that create their preferences/user data in none of the folders above, such as

/Library/Mail/
~/Library/Mail/
/Library/Mozilla/
~/Library/Folding@home/

And excluding, of course, the applications that after granting them root access install items inside the /System/ folder, such as Norton or whatever other, or, better, in hidden Unix folders such as /usr/local/bin/, in which case prepare to unwrap your fingers for Terminal use or reach some third party app.

Admittedly, applications' traces are much more localizable than in whatever flavor of Windows, but still OS X made a headache of what in OS 9 was a breeze.

I appreciate apps such as PGP which include an "Uninstall" option in their application's menu. If that option in that particluar app is efficient or not, I do not know, since I have not feel the need to use it so far. But in any case it is a good idea.

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by Wry Cooter
I have trouble considering this a legitimate complaint. There is no individual column resizing, but after all, one is merely saving a document. The columns do resize as a group... you can grab the corner of the save dialog 'sheet' to widen the finder view. The columns seemed to be based on the width of the file names. All visible columns widen until another column the same width as the original can pop in... 3 column view... 4... 5 column view, and so on.

Actually, no, the column width is not based on the width of the longest folder name (I have some long folder names which come from the same code base being used cross-platform, and no matter how wide I make the dialog box the columns "pop" back down to size before I can see the full folder names!)

The complaint is simple: the column view in the save boxes has some pre-determined "width" which it keeps each column at. That width is too narrow to view a really long folder name.

Experiment: Create a folder called "This is a really really really long folder name". Open TextEdit. Try to save the new document (File/Save). Can you get any more of "This is a really really really long folder name" to display than just "This is a really really really"? And that's only if you shrink the dialog box down so that only two columns can fit, then grow it until just before it changes to three columns.

IMHO, a very bad UI design on the save dialog, in countless ways. But let me count the most obvious:

1) To see longer folder names you have to make the dialog box smaller. And even then you are constrained by a predefined maximum (2x the min column size).

2) You can not overwrite an existing file without retyping its file name in full.

3) You can not make a derivative of an existng file name without retyping the name in full.

4) Resizing the panel resizes it in two directions at once, which runs counter to the convention of resizing only one direction in the rest of the OS (a panel issue, but Save inherits it)

5) The panel obscures the document beneath it. Us forgetful users often need details about the underlying document to remind us what file name we should choose for the document. :)

6) It is possible (esp with the default window size in TextEdit) for the panel to completely obscure the document beneath, and since you can not see the underlying doc's bottom-right corner you can't resize it.

7) "Hide Extension" has no noticable effect and gives no clue as to what it really should be doing.

8) Not so much specifically the "Save As" panel, but more the general mechanics of Column View: if I'm ten directories deep and change to "Home" (three levels deep) I am presented with a blank screen (multiple empty columns) and a bottom scroll bar scrolled all the way to the right. It appears that I am still looking "ten levels deep" in the directory structure, even though my "focus" is at three levels deep (ie, seven columns to the left of what's visible on screen). This is silly and inconsistent (I "jumped" right to "Home" ... and if I had navigated there normally I would not ever be able to scroll seven columns to the right and have my focus off-screen!)

Need more? We can move on to the "Open File" dialog if you'd like!

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by elmimmo
in hidden Unix folders such as /usr/local/bin/, in which case prepare to unwrap your fingers for Terminal use or reach some third party app.


Ahhh, the hidden folders. You do know that you can see them in Finder, right? Seems there used to be a global option to show them (but I can't find it today in Jaguar 10.2.6), but you can always use the "Go to folder ..." command to see /usr and /bin etc. You can even, once you have such a folder on-screen, drag that folder up to the toolbar to make a shortcut to it so that in the future all you have to do is click the button.


I appreciate apps such as PGP which include an "Uninstall" option in their application's menu. If that option in that particluar app is efficient or not, I do not know, since I have not feel the need to use it so far. But in any case it is a good idea.

Quite true. Unfortunately, the same is the case in Windows (the "Uninstall Programs" control panel just runs the app's uninstall script, which is never guaranteed to work 100% and often does not).

[elmimmo]

Originally posted by elmimmo
in hidden Unix folders such as /usr/local/bin/, in which case prepare to unwrap your fingers for Terminal use or reach some third party app.Originally posted by jettredmont
Ahhh, the hidden folders. You do know that you can see them in Finder, right?

I was refereing that if any app puts some files in the /System/ folder or any of the hidden Unix folders, you will need most probably root access to delete those files. And hence either you use the Terminal to sudo or launch another Finder as root, or use some sort of Super Delete such as that found in FileXaminer.

[beatle888]

Originally posted by jettredmont

Need more? We can move on to the "Open File" dialog if you'd like!

just incase you dont know (im not saying you dont) if you hold the option key while you drag the lower right hand corner of the dialog, the columns will increase in size.

didnt read all the posts so it might not even be relevant. gotta work, bye.

[Wry Cooter]

Originally posted by beatle888
just incase you dont know (im not saying you dont) if you hold the option key while you drag the lower right hand corner of the dialog, the columns will increase in size.


This only works in cocoa programs by the way, fwiw.

There are enough advantages to using as short a name as possible, having trained on many OS of the past where you did not have the luxury of long file names, I tend to keep things short and sweet anyway. If you are complaining about them being too long, don't give them 80 character names, or whatever it is that is irking you so.

Sometimes the flexibility in an OS is most easily improved by simply adjusting the nut behind the keyboard.

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by beatle888
just incase you dont know (im not saying you dont) if you hold the option key while you drag the lower right hand corner of the dialog, the columns will increase in size.

didnt read all the posts so it might not even be relevant. gotta work, bye.

Oooh! Thanks, that helps alot!

Doesn't help the UI (hidden features used to be anathema at Apple!), but at least there's code in there to work with ...

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by Wry Cooter
This only works in cocoa programs by the way, fwiw.


For me, personally, that's fine. The only programs (Developer tools) where this is a problem for me are Cocoa.


There are enough advantages to using as short a name as possible, having trained on many OS of the past where you did not have the luxury of long file names, I tend to keep things short and sweet anyway.


Yes, and the most important advantage to short names IMHO is being able to write scripts and just use the command line without difficulty (a tab-completing shell is pretty much mandatory for our system right now!)


If you are complaining about them being too long, don't give them 80 character names, or whatever it is that is irking you so.

Sometimes the flexibility in an OS is most easily improved by simply adjusting the nut behind the keyboard.

Quite true, and if OS X were my only development platform and/or if I were the only developer working on this project and/or if changing directory structure now was anywhere near as simple as just changing the folder name ... well, then that would be an option. I'm working on an originally-Windows-only code base, which is why the file names are so darned long.

That said, mine is a fairly unique case, so the advice would usually apply :)

Now, as for the other UI missteps in the "Save As..." dialog ...

[amyhre]

Panther vs. Longhorn. Man, it must suck to be vegetarian in this battle!

[MacQuest]

Panther vs. Longhorn. Man, it must suck to be vegetarian in this battle!

Wow! :eek:

Member "Amyhre" resurrected a thread that's nearly a year old! ;)

We need to actually start a Tiger vs. Longhorn thread now! :D

[thatwendigo]

Member "Amyhre" resurrected a thread that's nearly a year old! ;)

Actually, a PC troll brought this back up. I reported him for it and the post was removed. End of story. Now let's move along, neh? :D