PowerMac 970's... Later than Sooner?

[MacRumors]

Several prominent rumors (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/05/20030507134805.shtml) over the past few months have indicated that we may see shipping PowerMac 970's at or around the WordWide Developers Conference (WWDC) on June 23, 2003.

While early rumors have indicated that 970-related announcements/demos will be conducted at WWDC... the most optimistic claims (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/05/20030502173926.shtml) indicate near-immediate availability.

Recent information, however, suggests that PowerMac development is still ongoing, and neither finalized nor in-production at this time. This would suggest that PowerMac 970's would not ship until some time well after WWDC.

(This information does not exclude the possibility/probability that the PowerPC 970 may be demonstrated/discussed at WWDC.)

[Spike Spiegel]

oh well, im still coasting on my purchase of the MDD dual gig, so any interest i have in these proceedings cant be dashed that easily. I think the worst that can happen would be a rehash of last year's PM release, with the units not shipping until early september, which im sure, for the performance, many could live with.

[RandomDeadHead]

For some reason this doesnt surprise me. If this is true their will be some very unhappy people come the WWDC, not me though, I can wait.

It's like they say, all good things in all good time.

[Sublime]

Noooooooo!


That is all...

[rockman2023]

"Recent information" from where??

Seems like you never know what's gonna happen next in the Apple community. It would make sense to display demos at WWDC and not have the actual product finalized at the time. I'm not one to complain though, can't afford one now anyway.

Be prepared for the angry and shocked masses who will read this later today.

[gotohamish]

Bascially, if the 970 PowerMacs aren't ready, then we won't hear a damn thing about them at WWDC.

Apple has these products fine tuned a good while before they hit the warehouse shelves, let alone the retail shelves.

If it's ready, we'll see it - Apple are in as much of a hurry as we are.

[DakotaGuy]

I will be gone without a computer during the WWDC and a few days after. I guess I will either be surprised when I find out what happened or not.

[alset]

I'm gonna love it when everyone who treated recent rumors as the word of god cries and complains. Realistically, we have no clue when these machines will come along. It's better to always assume they are a long way off - that way they are a nice surprise when they finally come along.

Dan

[macdop]

I hope this is incorrect, or at least the new systems will be out by September, my lease on my machine runs out then, and I would be very disappointed if that meant that I would have to get a G4, I want a G5 damn it! not buying new hardware that will be massively obsolete in a month or two!

[Cappy]

I found it hard to believe that Apple would release any new generation PowerMacs or whatever they're going to be called in June. Apple has for a few years now to my recollection waited on introducing new bigger, badder systems through the summer so they can let the educational market clear out their inventories. This, of course, means that new systems that are considered significant to the consumers probably won't see them until August probably. This also begins setting Apple up for a very nice xmas run that stockholders like to hear about.

Until roundabouts August look for minor tweak/updates to the current PMac line.

Now to throw everyone for a loop...if a small rumor circulating is true, then we might see new systems earlier. The rumor I speak of is that new 970 based systems will not be called PowerMacs. In this case the report might be true but we could still see new machines earlier. That still goes against the inventory statement I made earlier but if these systems are extremely highend(essentially meaning Apple having a highend line above the current PowerMacs) then it may not have an impact on the same markets.

[HasanDaddy]

Hey - if Arn puts it up, I believe it!!!

*Ladies and Gentlemen - say hello to the G5/970*

I hope those PowerBook 970's are on their way out soon too!

[bdkennedy1]

It doesn't make sense to release the 970's before OS X 10.3 comes out in September.

[Bengt77]

Originally posted by Cappy
I found it hard to believe that Apple would release any new generation PowerMacs or whatever they're going to be called in June. Apple has for a few years now to my recollection waited on introducing new bigger, badder systems through the summer so they can let the educational market clear out their inventories. This, of course, means that new systems that are considered significant to the consumers probably won't see them until August probably. This also begins setting Apple up for a very nice xmas run that stockholders like to hear about.

However much I had hoped for new Power Macs to be possibly previewed during WWDC or at least during MWNY, what you state makes sense. The Christmas buying season is THE time Apple could use a brand spanking new machine. That would indeed please the stockholders a LOT.

Darn, I hope they are ready at all by Christmas time; really do. What if the earliest rumours were true after all, and the PPC970 equipped Macs won't be seen until MWSF in January and won't be shipping until sometime during February or even March 2004? I would HATE that to happen. I'm also really starting to wonder what Panther will bring us, if 64 bit computing is still several months away?!...

:confused:

[gotohamish]

Originally posted by Cappy
I found it hard to believe that Apple would release any new generation PowerMacs or whatever they're going to be called in June. Apple has for a few years now to my recollection waited on introducing new bigger, badder systems through the summer so they can let the educational market clear out their inventories. This, of course, means that new systems that are considered significant to the consumers probably won't see them until August probably. This also begins setting Apple up for a very nice xmas run that stockholders like to hear about.

Until roundabouts August look for minor tweak/updates to the current PMac line.

Now to throw everyone for a loop...if a small rumor circulating is true, then we might see new systems earlier. The rumor I speak of is that new 970 based systems will not be called PowerMacs. In this case the report might be true but we could still see new machines earlier. That still goes against the inventory statement I made earlier but if these systems are extremely highend(essentially meaning Apple having a highend line above the current PowerMacs) then it may not have an impact on the same markets.

That's a very interesting point:

- Introduce the 970 Xstations (whatever) ABOVE the current line of PowerMacs (which will receive a minor price cut, as will the iMac respectively).

- Continue to EOL the PowerMacs until inventory is clear.

- Then bring the Xstations down in price with their 1st/2nd revision to take the PM's place.

It might happen. Probably not, but it might.

[dongmin]

Originally posted by Macrumors
(This information does not exclude the possibility/probability that the PowerPC 970 may be demonstrated/discussed at WWDC.)

If they're previewed at WWDC in some fashion, wouldn't the news leak out? And wouldn't such news kill Power Mac sales, what little there is? So doesn't it make sense for Apple to take orders and release the 970 PMs soon after such a preview?

I would think, even if the preview was to only select developers under the NDA, the mainstream press would report such a big news. So I'm not talking just about the rumor community here.

It would be a major shame if Apple didn't release the 970 before the education buying season. I don't think too many people, myself included, will get a G4 as their next major purchase.

[iwantanewmac]

So many people crying for "their" g5's
I think there is gonna be 1 G4 update.
New powermac not until very late 2003 or early 2004.

[aasmund]

I seem to remember taht before several of the other new product announcements e.g. (new G4 Imac, SuperDrive in Powerbook) we have seen denying rumours ahead. Perhaps Apple ameks these themselves to improve spectacularity of new announcements. I think the MacBidouille stuff is crap, but that they will probably announce the '970 during the summer and start shipping 1. of september.

regards

[maradong]

Originally posted by alset
I'm gonna love it when everyone who treated recent rumors as the word of god cries and complains. Realistically, we have no clue when these machines will come along. It's better to always assume they are a long way off - that way they are a nice surprise when they finally come along.

Dan
sad but true.

[Black Badger]

Although Apple have a history of not discussing unannounced products, they do however show off future products, such as the XServe, which was announced in May 02 and shipped in July, the XRaid, again was announced at the same time, that shipped in Feb 03.

Apple could announce 970s at WWDC, then make available a limited number of 970s, say 40,000 units, only to attendees immediatly either at the conference or through the Apple Store and the public can pre-order for mid August/Sept.
You can imagine Steve saying at the end of the Panther presentation "You know what would go well with this next generation OS you've all got, a next generation PowerMac...." whoops/cheers and he shows one off "...Only you guys here can order one at the Apple Store for immediate shipping, so you can try out the awseome power of the 970 today"

There would be a number of advantages to this:
This would allow developers to get their hands on one, develop/tweak their code before the masses get hold of them.
Apple would get a whole bunch of field testing done (like Safari) where last minute bugs could be ironed out before mass rollout.
More "real world" benchmarks could be done (even with a beta Panther) - creates buzz, drives pre-orders.
The people who would like to see how fast they are, but can't wait until Aug/Sept for a buying decision get to see benchmarks shortly after WWDC.
Due to a limited initial release, they would become an object of desire - driving pre-orders in the public.
The buying public sees that they are indeed real and out there.
Apple would have a little more time to amass stock for the mid-August shipping for the public pre-orders and Apple would be able to ship the new 970's with a final version of Panther.

Ok so the timings could be off but with Apple you just never know.

The only danger to this is if the new machines do not perform as well as expected and a negative buzz will be created. Either way Apple are well aware of the fact that the new machines NEED to be pretty amazing so they will be pulling out the stops.

[maradong]

Although Apple have a history of not discussing unannounced products, they do however show off future products, such as the XServe, which was announced in May 02 and shipped in July, the XRaid, again was announced at the same time, that shipped in Feb 03.

Apple could announce 970s at WWDC, then make available a limited number of 970s, say 40,000 units, only to attendees immediatly either at the conference or through the Apple Store and the public can pre-order for mid August/Sept.
You can imagine Steve saying at the end of the Panther presentation "You know what would go well with this next generation OS you've all got, a next generation PowerMac...." whoops/cheers and he shows one off "...Only you guys here can order one at the Apple Store for immediate shipping, so you can try out the awseome power of the 970 today"

There would be a number of advantages to this:
This would allow developers to get their hands on one, develop/tweak their code before the masses get hold of them.
Apple would get a whole bunch of field testing done (like Safari) where last minute bugs could be ironed out before mass rollout.
More "real world" benchmarks could be done (even with a beta Panther) - creates buzz, drives pre-orders.
The people who would like to see how fast they are, but can't wait until Aug/Sept for a buying decision get to see benchmarks shortly after WWDC.
Due to a limited initial release, they would become an object of desire - driving pre-orders in the public.
The buying public sees that they are indeed real and out there.
Apple would have a little more time to amass stock for the mid-August shipping for the public pre-orders and Apple would be able to ship the new 970's with a final version of Panther.

Ok so the timings could be off but with Apple you just never know.

The only danger to this is if the new machines do not perform as well as expected and a negative buzz will be created. Either way Apple are well aware of the fact that the new machines NEED to be pretty amazing so they will be pulling out the stops.
you might be perfectly right, but i hope the ppc will become aviable faster than august / september. even if that is not really realistic.
Best would be to have some unit s like 5000 or so, in the us and in europe, to begin the shipping immediatly.
Hence, i don t think it will be made that way. I ll be rather like presenting it in august/ september and than making in aviable, as it seems there are still unsolved problems ! why would they wait so long, if there weren't... ?
Well a possible point is that apple will not use the ppc970 but im quiet optimistic regarding the presentation of the chip sooner or later.
For certain, if apple is not presenting it on wwcd, ill buy a 15'', if they are upgraded. with or without 970.

[Centris 650]

I just can't see Apple showing the 970 in June if they aren't ready for orders. Word would leak out about the machine and just kill powermac sales. I wonder how powermac sales have been affected by these rumors anyway? I know I have put off my purchase until sometime Q4 or Q1 of 2004. I was hoping for a Rev B of the 970 by then but as it stands I might be getting a Rev A. However, whatever is out by then I will have to purchase.

[Black Badger]

As for killing Powemac sales, well they are pretty much dead now anyway. By having loads of pre-orders is better than having no orders whatsoever. Sales of the G4 are so bad because 1. They are not that good 2. People want a faster machine & 3. People are waiting for a new machine which they know is only round the corner.
Sales were dead before Jan, then the 1.42's came out - wow, bit of a rise but not much. People just want better pro computers from Apple and are holding off for the next big thing - 970. Its the silence that is driving people away.

The 'Developer Batch' I've proposed would not be under any NDA as such, these would be pretty much identical to the public versions, except for very minor revisions. It would just allow dev's to get to grips with them and say to the public "Yep, there real and on their way'

[Trimix]

I need to buy a new system by mid-July -
Now what do I do ?
Please Apple, please

[tazznb]

Originally posted by Sublime
Noooooooo!


That is all...

This gave me a really good laugh!



That is all...

[neutrino23]

I think Apple will release new machines as soon as it is technically possible.

We always seemt to deal with two schools of thought. One group argues that Apple will somehow adjust the ship date of a new product to accord to some other product or some buying season.

For example, new PowerMacs will come out in some relation to the education buying season or the Christmas season.

I'm in the other school. Apple might adjust it's schedules a month or so as described above, however, the biggest driver is technology. If the 970 is ready in July, Apple won't wait till Christmas or MSWF to release them. Time to market is so important it would be very costly to delay.

Anyway, the net result is we only know that a June/July release is within the realm of possibility as IBM seems to have the 970 in production. We don't know if there are other technical items that could delay introduction. For Apple's sake I hope they can get them out the door quickly. Personally, I'll be happy whenever they come out.

[tazznb]

Originally posted by Black Badger

The only danger to this is if the new machines do not perform as well as expected and a negative buzz will be created. Either way Apple are well aware of the fact that the new machines NEED to be pretty amazing so they will be pulling out the stops.

The only thing stopping me from making an Apple tower purchase is that the current hardware is WAYYYYYY tooooo SLOOOOWWWWW; I'm not waiting for the 970 to appear: I'm waiting to see if it's fast as it SHOULD BE, before I consider a purchase. It would be an huge let-down to jump on a purchase (before seeing a performance test) that could end up being a very expensive mistake.

[AidenShaw]

When other companies came out with their 64-bit CPUs and 64-bit operating systems, the early limited-production systems were given (or loaned) to software developers working on 64-bit applications.

This gave the developers a head start, so that by the time the 64-bit systems were in full production there were some 64-bit applications to run on them!

The other companies often had an additional step, where they released 64-bit development tools long before any hardware was available. These tools ran on the existing 32-bit systems, but used all of the 64-bit APIs and had additional tools to look for 64-bit programming errors (like treating a pointer as 32-bits).

You couldn't run the 64-bit programs, but you could at least be sure that they compiled and linked cleanly. As soon as you got 64-bit hardware, you could start debugging.
___________________________________________

I wonder if WWDC will see the release of 64-bit tools, even if there's no hardware around....

[Black Badger]

Tazznb
It would be an huge let-down to jump on a purchase (before seeing a performance test) that could end up being a very expensive mistake.

In my previous post I outlined a proposal where Apple release a 'Developer Batch' at WWDC just for WWDC attendees available immediately. This would allow developers to develop/test/tweak their code and for benchmarks to be carried out, this would allow people like yourself to see whats what without having to make a blind purchase. At WWDC pre-orders for Aug/Sept would be available for the public (not just developers)

[kylos]

Speaking of dead pm sales, I love how Apple tells the stockholders that this is because of the economic pressures on the creative folks. They know the real reason, but they dare not not spin the data, otherwise they'd never recover.:)

[JtheLemur]

Originally posted by Black Badger
As for killing Powemac sales, well they are pretty much dead now anyway.

Definitely - I know for me (and I'm sure a few others) all the recent rumors regarding the potential availability of 970-based kit made me put off buying a G4. I do need a new computer, but not bad enough yet to warrant purchasing what is potentially old-generation stuff! =)

edit: I'm a creative person and I've actually GOT a chunk of money to spend on new equipment! boooo Apple. Hehe.

[macmunch]

The PPC970 can arrive before 10.3 this system will only add 64Bit abilities to him but unless this he will be very fast !!!

The will realease the machine with this chip and Developers wil lget on WWDC the machines and builts of 10.3 to develop Software for this System and the Chip !

Than when some apps are ready 10.3 will come !

So WWDC machines and built of 10.3 for Developers !!!
Maybe also for Public ...

And then by Semptember 10.3 Public

[bokdol]

they could pretty much release the 970 during the confrence. and if people think it well kill powermac sales. all i have to say is. drop the price 500 to 600 dollars and you have a sub 1000$ mac desktop in the low end.... people want a cheaper lowe end desk top but not an imac. the current powermac can fit nicly in there...

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by JtheLemur
Definitely - I know for me (and I'm sure a few others) all the recent rumors regarding the potential availability of 970-based kit made me put off buying a G4. I do need a new computer, but not bad enough yet to warrant purchasing what is potentially old-generation stuff! =)

I here you on that. I'm running a 450MHz single processor at home and its really starting to get to me. But there is no way I'd drop several $k to get up and running right now on a Dual 1.42 when it will be greatly surpassed by the end of the year.

The good thing is that I have a TiPB and dual 1.25 at work.....so its not all that bad yet. :D

D

[The Shadow]

Apple will definitely say something about the 970 at the conference - a prediction - even if it's not ready to go into production.
I just feel that even Steve Jobs will have to bow to public and customer expectations. A lot of businesses have been holding off making purchases, in good faith, but can't continue to do this much longer, in the absence of confirmation. And Apple must know that.

My 50C.

[JtheLemur]

I mean, how much longer can Apple 'coast' on the current line of PowerMacs? There's nothing new about them, and hasn't been in years - just splashes of paint to make them look new (DDR, Bluetooth, redesign of El Capitan)... blah! Hopefully they'll say SOMEthing.

[Dunepilot]

A little OT, but my 2c nonetheless....

I've noticed a lot of newbies on these boards complaining about how slow the G4 is, how low sales of G4 Powermacs are and have been from what seems like no evidence.

Sure, the G4 isn't the total powerhouse it first seemed it would be, but there are a lot of people who find the performance of jaguar on a dual G4 to be pretty good, myself included.

The 970, if and when it is released, will no doubt herald a whole new era of enjoyable Mac computing, but let's not forget that we're getting a decent (if not world-beating) experience now, and Apple has used the lull in hardware to come out with some incredible software solutions that run well on current top-end machines. My concern is more for the consumer buyers who are only now beginning to see anything like the performance they should expect from the Finder in OS X. Speed-wise the performance of OS 9 on consumer machines was far more adequate, but things are improving. I look forward to the day when there are 970-powered iMacs - then there'll be no cause for complaint

*gets ready to eat his own words*

[Mr. Anderson]

Well there is one interesting thing that could really kill them - if they announce the 970s at WWDC and then provide an speed bump to the current G4s to tide us over until the 970s are available.

That would be a shot in the foot for Apple if they did that. Which means that if they announce a new machine based on the 970 at WWDC (which is what we're all expecting) that will mark the end of the PowerMac G4 line - and it would be in Apple's best interest to get the new machines out into the public asap.

Given that - there is no reason Apple isn't spreading rumors itself saying that the 970s will come out later.....rumor control at this point might mean the difference on selling the old G4s off....

D

[elo]

We've previously heard rumors that there will be one more "minor technical update" to the PM G4, so this is not inconsistent with that. My guess, however, is that Apple will provide us with a roadmap for new processor integration, lest those who purchase the new G4 (if these rumors are, in fact, true) can do so with their eyes open. In other words, these would likely be manufactured in extremely limited qualities as sort of a finger-in-the-dam measure.

elo

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by macdop
...not buying new hardware that will be massively obsolete in a month or two!

obsolete?

This word is bandied about quite a bit in these forums. Isn't there anyone who knows what it means? Let me help.

adj.
1. No longer in use
2. Outmoded in design.

See? There's no mention of cutting edge or even being trounced in benchmarks. There are pre-G3 machines out there that aren't "obsolete", depending on their usage. Providing that the hardware doesn't fail, your machine will run the software that's installed on it indefinately. It doesn't become a worse machine as better ones come out.

You can complain about the ugly portholes tacked on the G4's 5 year old case or the tacky mirrored doors or the loud fans. You can even get steamed up at the increasingly non-competitive performance of these machines compared to P4s. But obsolescence? That's absurd!

The grammar police have left the building! - :D

As an addendum, I'm hoping that 10.3 adds the equivalent of an extra couple megahertz to the feel of my machine. It's all about perception...

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by The Shadow
Apple will definitely say something about the 970 at the conference - a prediction - even if it's not ready to go into production.

Many people predict that even hinting about the PPC970 will destroy PMG4 sales.

OTOH, if Apple were to say "PPC970 coming in January", it's possible that you'd see a quick jump in sales of the current G4 models.

The reason - many customers are holding off right now because they think that the 970 will be here soon - perhaps in a few weeks at WWDC.

If everyone knew that it is many months away, many will decide that they can't wait that long, and they'll buy the current machines.

[AidenShaw]

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
OTOH, if Apple were to say "PPC970 coming in January", it's possible that you'd see a quick jump in sales of the current G4 models.

Of course, they could always start taking pre-orders for a January release! :p

[eric_n_dfw]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Many people predict that even hinting
about the PPC970 will destroy PMG4 sales.

OTOH, if Apple were to say "PPC970 coming in January", it's possible that you'd see a quick jump in sales of the current G4 models.

The reason - many customers are holding off right now because they think that the 970 will be here soon - perhaps in a few weeks at WWDC.

If everyone knew that it is many months away, many will decide that they can't wait that long, and they'll buy the current machines.
History is not on your side here - the classic example of Osbourne computers is quoted all of the time against this arguement. Most people would just continue to live with their current machines - adding memory, a Quartz Extreeme capable video card, etc until the newer machines come out. In my case, I bought an older, used PM and a Radeon 8500 to hold me - Apple saw zero profit from my purchase.

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
Of course, they could always start taking pre-orders for a January release! :p That's more likeley - especially if a deposit is required on them.

[tazznb]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Many people predict that even hinting about the PPC970 will destroy PMG4 sales.

OTOH, if Apple were to say "PPC970 coming in January", it's possible that you'd see a quick jump in sales of the current G4 models.

The reason - many customers are holding off right now because they think that the 970 will be here soon - perhaps in a few weeks at WWDC.

If everyone knew that it is many months away, many will decide that they can't wait that long, and they'll buy the current machines. ...... Or if it's a large corporate entity they may be forced/pressured to go the dark road of WIntel; What do you think? Not everyone's gonna wait! Especially when you have to contend with a company that have a large Windows population.

I have an Eduacational order for the machines that are coming, and if they have nothing new to show before my ordering time is up they'll STRONGLY recommend my purchasing pcs for the classes.

A lone consumer, or head of business probably can afford to wait, but I don't have that luxry.:(

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by eric_n_dfw
History is not on your side here - the classic example of Osbourne computers is quoted all of the time against this arguement.

Yes, but Osbourne was a small company with one main product.

Right now I have Powerpoints outlining IBM's Intel server roadmap for the next 18 months, right down to last-order-dates and new model numbers and specs and intro dates. I also have similar presentations from Dell and HP. I'm buying Xeons today, even though I have a non-disclosure presentation on Prescott and even later chips.

These companies believe that it's important to give their customers the information necessary to plan and budget IT purchases - more important than ego and surprises.

"Osbourne" is the exception....


Most people would just continue to live with their current machines...

In other words, just what they're doing anyway.

[Kid Red]

Just because their may be a demo of the 970 running panther (if you want to demonstrate your 64bit OS you need to run it on something) doesn't mean they were going to be released or announced to the public. Everyone assumed that's what it meant. Now they very well could be ready but they aren't going to be announced there I don't care what anyone says. Announce the 970 at a developers $1400 per person conference which centers around software? No.

It will be in the fall or possibly around MWNY like it's been stated all along.

[MorganX]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Many people predict that even hinting about the PPC970 will destroy PMG4 sales.

Sales aren't that good right now are they? I think Apple will have to find away to announce. Furhtermore, they'll have to go 970 across the board.

With Intel's springdale chipset and cheap HT P4's for it, $800 pcs will be blowing the best PMG4 out of the water.

Springdale Chipset (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,1097197,00.asp)

Apple is going to have to rethink this pro/consumer model. At the very least each line should have a maxed out machine. And moving to a 970 or equivalent is no longer if, but how soon.

[Windowlicker]

I don't know if someone already pointed this out, but I remember apple saying something like this WWDC will be the most important or whatever in Apple's history...

I don't think that only a new iPod software and a preview of Panther will do that :P

Still, 970's aren't granted of course. But I would look forward in at least a demo of it used in a Mac..

[anonmac]

eric,

don't be foolish-- of course apple made money on you... just not directly...the person you bought from most likely upgraded their powermac to one SOOOOOOO much more powerful, they sold their 'old, slow one' to you- and they will probably sell the new one when the 970's come out- costing them a few 100 dollars (remember, these are macs, they HOLD resale value very well) and they will have had a 'New, Fast mac' the WHOLE TIME YOU WERE SCREWING AROUND with last years (or 1999, as the case) models.

i know people who do this all the time...they actually RELY on whiners like you.

enjoy your old slow mac, then enjoy the '15 minutes of fame'you have with your 970 when it comes out- cause you wont upgrade to another new one til the 980's or later(2 years)...whining the whole time.

have a great day.

anonmac

p.s. anyone who says the powermac sales are slow because of performance is dead wrong. the creative markets (where i work) ARE drying up. A 50-person design group just 'disbanded' in my city because of lack of work. (They purchased 10-20 new macs a year). and that IS representative of whats happening. (if you're in the industry, fighting for the last few jobs- you KNOW what i mean-- otherwise it's hard to fathom.)

[MacsRgr8]

I've said it before, I'll say it again.
If Apple want to keep Pro's who need / want fast machines as their customers, they'll beter give a hint if / when the successor of the G4 will come (hopefully, the 970...:) )..... otherwise they could be switching to the darker, but faster side!
As said before: PM sales are down anyway.

[BenRoethig]

Originally posted by iwantanewmac
So many people crying for "their" g5's
I think there is gonna be 1 G4 update.
New powermac not until very late 2003 or early 2004.

I don't think we're going to see another update for the G4. Motorola has done just about everything they can with the 7455 and I have a feeling the desktop versions 7457 and its DDR variant were never developed. Apple is stuck where it's at until the 970 (or another G4 successor chip) comes, whenever that is.

[Wonder Boy]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
many customers are holding off right now because they think that the 970 will be here soon - perhaps in a few weeks at WWDC.

If everyone knew that it is many months away, many will decide that they can't wait that long, and they'll buy the current machines.


I said this to a buddy of mine 20 minutes before reading this post! You sir, are a genius.

BTW- I still need advice on whether to buy or wait on a airport device. I want to go wireless, but is today the day to go and buy one? Thanks.

[Frobozz]

Originally posted by anonmac
A 50-person design group just 'disbanded' in my city because of lack of work. (They purchased 10-20 new macs a year). and that IS representative of whats happening. (if you're in the industry, fighting for the last few jobs- you KNOW what i mean-- otherwise it's hard to fathom.)

You're in the wrong line of creative work. Business is booming if you're moving with the trends. If you don't, you're extinct like the dinosaurs. That's how the world works now, sadly. No longer can the same skillset move someone from age 25 to 65... it's usually about 5 to 10 years at most.

I know this is a bit off topic, but creative work no longer means designing something pretty. That's about 25% of the larger picture for any successful design firm. It just depends on your definition of design. :-)

[fourthtunz]

Originally posted by Mr. Anderson
I here you on that. I'm running a 450MHz single processor at home and its really starting to get to me. But there is no way I'd drop several $k to get up and running right now on a Dual 1.42 when it will be greatly surpassed by the end of the year.

The good thing is that I have a TiPB and dual 1.25 at work.....so its not all that bad yet. :D

D

Yeah I'm with you, I decided to wait on the powermac, but bought an emac with the superdrive, a very nice machine with lots of software and half the price of a powermac. 2 Macs are better than one!
daniel

[IJ Reilly]

Announced in June, and ships in September, along with Panther. A typical Apple rollout. Isn't that what most of us have been predicting all along?

They will probably also have to offer some significant pricing incentives to move the existing PM line. Alternatively, they could announce the 970 for the Xserve line only in June, and leave us guessing when it will appear in the desktop products.

Several scenarios with only small variations on the same theme.

[pgwalsh]

If they don't announce the 970 at WWDC 2003, that will be very sad. :( If They don't ship until September then that would be even worse. :mad:

Options :D

[MisterMe]

Originally posted by MacsRgr8
I've said it before, I'll say it again.
If Apple want to keep Pro's who need / want fast machines as their customers, they'll beter give a hint if / when the successor of the G4 will come (hopefully, the 970...:) )..... otherwise they could be switching to the darker, but faster side!
As said before: PM sales are down anyway. If the machines on the darker side could do the job, those people would have switched long ago.

[Groznoy]

Originally posted by Mr. Anderson
I here you on that. I'm running a 450MHz single processor at home and its really starting to get to me. But there is no way I'd drop several $k to get up and running right now on a Dual 1.42 when it will be greatly surpassed by the end of the year.

The good thing is that I have a TiPB and dual 1.25 at work.....so its not all that bad yet. :D

D

my 8500/450G4 died last night after I got back from work. I've been hoping to last a couple of months on this machine until the 970 comes out, but now I don't know what to do! I'm not buying the current powermacs. I want the 970 and a new enclosure. maybe i'll just hybernate for a while.

[dongmin]

Originally posted by Macrumors
Recent information, however, suggests that PowerMac development is still ongoing, and neither finalized nor in-production at this time. This would suggest that PowerMac 970's would not ship until some time well after WWDC.

no one has really discussed what this could mean. If the machines are indeed still 'in development', then it's probably way way off before we could get our grubby hands on them. Maybe not til 6 months from now. So maybe not until MWSF 2004!!!

[Kamu-San]

Originally posted by anonmac

p.s. anyone who says the powermac sales are slow because of performance is dead wrong. the creative markets (where i work) ARE drying up. A 50-person design group just 'disbanded' in my city because of lack of work. (They purchased 10-20 new macs a year). and that IS representative of whats happening. (if you're in the industry, fighting for the last few jobs- you KNOW what i mean-- otherwise it's hard to fathom.)

Scary, but insightful. That means that Apple should target other markets than the creative pros too.
And lower their prices. Because face it, a dual 1.42 is *not* slow. It's just waaaaaay to expensive for it's performance.

[mactastic]

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
Announced in June, and ships in September, along with Panther. A typical Apple rollout. Isn't that what most of us have been predicting all along?

They will probably also have to offer some significant pricing incentives to move the existing PM line. Alternatively, they could announce the 970 for the Xserve line only in June, and leave us guessing when it will appear in the desktop products.

Several scenarios with only small variations on the same theme.
What he said!
And as for another scenario... I wouldn't complain if a fall release of the iBook had a G4 running at 1-1.25Ghz in it for under $1200 when the pro line goes 970. Or a PMG4 tower under $1000 (I know, what about the iMac, eMac etc. but some people like all-in-ones, and others like to have pci slots.:p). Not everyone needs their computer to push the limits of speed, so cheap G4's would keep them selling.
My $0.02

[areyouwishing]

Originally posted by MisterMe
If the machines on the darker side could do the job, those people would have switched long ago.

I had an Apple II GS, that was my first, and last apple to date (though i plan on getting one soon). I work as a graphic designer and have NEVER had a problem using a PC for my work.

You're in the wrong line of creative work. Business is booming if you're moving with the trends. If you don't, you're extinct like the dinosaurs. That's how the world works now, sadly. No longer can the same skillset move someone from age 25 to 65... it's usually about 5 to 10 years at most.

I agree with this statement to a certain degree. Even though we have shifted our focus slightly (more CD-ROMS, websites, etc.) our primary dollar is earned off collateral material. I wouldn't say business is booming like it was 2 months ago, but I did get a raise last week, so I can't complain too much. :)

[Remus]

Originally posted by dongmin
no one has really discussed what this could mean. If the machines are indeed still 'in development', then it's probably way way off before we could get our grubby hands on them. Maybe not til 6 months from now. So maybe not until MWSF 2004!!!


I do not think it is that far off. If you look at this article from Business Week Online (http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/may2003/tc20030521_2871_tc056.htm) you will see that it looks like they will be out this summer. IMHO that means August with ship date of September.

I know the guy who wrote this article does not have the technical knowledge of computer from his statement "IBM says the new Apple chip will be of the 64-bit variety, which means it can process twice as much information per cycle as existing 32-bit chips." But from a business aspect he may have the right info.... IMHO :D

[jayscheuerle]

If these machines do come out in (let's say July), why would any of the brighter people in these forums buy one right away? As anyone who has read these discussions as recently as the current Tower release would know that revisions are frought with problems and these are going to be BIG revisions.

So, for any of you impatient fellows out there, let's not hear any whining about overly sensitive RAM, jet engine fan noise or table melting heat when you put your order in on release day. Same goes for those installing Panther in a production environment. Apple can't even release a .0x release without it hosing someone's system.

You're sure to pay for revision A
So wait and see for revision B

:D - j

[macspirit]

While the Intel/AMD folks seem to have a clear view of what lies ahead with regard to future hardware releases, the PowerPC people seem to lost in the desert...waiting patiently (in a coma?) for Moses to lead them back to the Promised Land. IMHO, Apple needs to spearhead an effort to marshall their hardware forces for an all-out assault on the Intel juggernaut. Why not enlist IBM, Motorola, Samsung and a few others to form a 'coalition of the willing'? Willing to cooperate on the creation of hardware designs that lead, rather than follow the industry. Apple needs to push hardware design, because the incentive for desktop processor development just doesn't seem to be there. Motorola, IBM and the rest seem to be primarily interested in the embedded market, and have scant interest in spending research and development dollars to produce state-of-the-art desktop computer processor designs. That's something Apple sacrificed, when it killed off the clones. It reduced the size of the market for the very kinds of hardware on which its continued profitability depends. And it left a very sour taste in the mouth of its biggest supplier of PowerPC chips...Motorola. The competition the cloners provided to Apple forced them to develop newer and faster hardware designs at a more rapid pace. Imagine how much more incentive Motorola had to produce faster generations of PowerPC chips, when their own hardware sales profits depended on them. Imagine how that incentive evaporated, when Apple pulled their license. It's no wonder Apple is turning now to IBM for salvation, because they're all that's left of the PowerPC alliance. Clearly, the time for action has passed. One wonders if Apple will ever wake up, and get their act in gear.

[freundt]

Originally posted by BenRoethig
I don't think we're going to see another update for the G4. Motorola has done just about everything they can with the 7455 and I have a feeling the desktop versions 7457 and its DDR variant were never developed. Apple is stuck where it's at until the 970 (or another G4 successor chip) comes, whenever that is.

...And not to mention the whole Moto/Apple lawsuit...

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by mactastic
What he said!
And as for another scenario... I wouldn't complain if a fall release of the iBook had a G4 running at 1-1.25Ghz in it for under $1200 when the pro line goes 970. Or a PMG4 tower under $1000 (I know, what about the iMac, eMac etc. but some people like all-in-ones, and others like to have pci slots.:p). Not everyone needs their computer to push the limits of speed, so cheap G4's would keep them selling.
My $0.02

Back atcha. At some point we need to look beyond the technical and political questions and even (lord help us) beyond the rumors to what Apple must do in the near term as a matter of basic survival. Fact is they absolutely must get these new CPUs out the door, and no matter how quickly they can hustle their butts to make it so will hardly be fast enough, the change is that far overdue. If we know this for a fact as Apple customers, certainly Apples knows it.

All of which suggests to me sooner rather than later, and not because it necessarily squares with all of the rumors, but because Apple just cannot afford to wait any longer.

[rjwill246]

Originally posted by macspirit
While the Intel/AMD folks seem to have a clear view of what lies ahead with regard to future hardware releases, the PowerPC people seem to lost in the desert... Apple needs to spearhead an effort to marshall their hardware forces for an all-out assault on the Intel juggernaut. Why not enlist IBM, Motorola, Samsung and a few others to form a 'coalition of the willing'? Clearly, the time for action has passed. One wonders if Apple will ever wake up, and get their act in gear.

You are right. I was just looking at the computers at a car dealership (put in any workplace) and they were all flimsily made black things with either Dell or Gateway stamped somewhere, parallel ports (et al. passé stuff) and it just hit me that Apple can never get into this market because it is simply NOT Apple to do so! It is certainly unthinkable for them to make crappy black boxes. But- what if they make a well integrated hub and have beautifully made but stripped down iMac-like "terminals" to go with a stunningly designed server (hey! it might not be hidden and someone might see it!) and get into that great Unix software "catalogue" of business software and THEN go head to head with the Wintel world. It just seems an impossible task for Apple to sell PMs or iMacs as currently configured to be bought in the millions to replace the "black box" market. Macs are too expensive... but that begs another question and that is, does Apple want to get into that market? Judging by comments on this forum, one senses that the answer would be a resounding NO! However, "stripped down" does not have to mean 'crappy' and I venture that there is indeed a market opportunity for Apple to blow away the competition with 'business' machines that would not be an embarrasment to them (or us). Hence, another need for a coalition of the willing!

[GregA]

Originally posted by macspirit
IMHO, Apple needs to spearhead an effort to marshall their hardware forces for an all-out assault on the Intel juggernaut. Why not enlist IBM, Motorola, Samsung and a few others to form a 'coalition of the willing'? Willing to cooperate on the creation of hardware designs that lead, rather than follow the industry.Alternatively, could (for instance) IBM build a 970 Xserve for Apple, using the design principles IBM is already using on their own 970 systems, but with Apple box and software? Would that be a good or bad thing for apple?

Would that work for other systems, with other manufacturers? Or would it remove Apple's control over their hardware & software integration?

[GregA]

Originally posted by rjwill246
It is certainly unthinkable for <Apple> to make crappy black boxes. But- what if they make a well integrated hub and have beautifully made but stripped down iMac-like "terminals" to go with a stunningly designed server (hey! it might not be hidden and someone might see it!) and get into that great Unix software "catalogue" of business software and THEN go head to head with the Wintel world. That's really interesting!

And not just for small companies saving money - but for homes as they start more commonly wanting more than one computer. A nice little iMac-like option as a dumb terminal - maybe with graphics chip and soundcard for speed?

(Throw in the option of using old Mac OS 8/9 machines as dumb terminals too?... or Linux PCs?)

[macspirit]

Originally posted by rjwill246
I venture that there is indeed a market opportunity for Apple to blow away the competition with 'business' machines that would not be an embarrasment to them (or us). Hence, another need for a coalition of the willing!

I must tell you that I am amazed that Apple has waited this long to do something about Motorola's inability (or unwillingness) to keep pace in the area of processor performance. Surely their technical people have been aware of what's been going on for the last couple of years.

I would agree that Apple certainly has the wherewithall to produce a 'business' class of machines that would humble their Wintel competition, but I wonder if they have the will to do so. Given the current paucity of processor choices for such a project, and their propensity to prefer prodigious profit margins, I become even more skeptical of their ever attempting to move into that market.

Apple has concentrated all of their efforts on the digital hub and software development of late, while hardware development seems to have fallen somewhere way down the list of priorities at One Infinite Loop. The big, unanswered question is 'Why?' If anyone out there knows the answer, I'd love to hear it.

[Abstract]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
obsolete?

This word is bandied about quite a bit in these forums. Isn't there anyone who knows what it means? Let me help.

adj.
1. No longer in use
2. Outmoded in design.

See? There's no mention of cutting edge or even being trounced in benchmarks. There are pre-G3 machines out there that aren't "obsolete", depending on their usage.

Ah, that's every Mac-head's pre-programmed answer to the "obsolete" statement. If Macdop doesn't want to buy hardware that WILL become obsolete in 2 months, then good. From your train of thought, I should feel quite happy and comfortable purchasing a Pentium II 400MHz for $3000 since all I need a computer for is internet browsing, MS Word, Excel, and Powerpoint.

Let me put it this way: a Pentium II would fit my needs, but no, I'm definitely not willing to part with $3000 to purchase one. Even for my needs, a new computer that is slower than a P4 2.0GHz is obsolete hardware that I shouldn't pay a premium for. Mac users are paying a premium. My mode of thought can also be used for a G4 Dual 1.42GHz computer, especially when I know a 970 is just around the corner. I want to get the best product for my money, and at this point in time, getting a DP G4 1.42GHz PM isn't in anyone's best interests, no matter what their needs are. A Pentium 1 is obsolete in anybody's book, even if it can still 'technically' be used by some poor shlub.

[Cappy]

Apple is not going to enter into the pricewar . They never have and only will at this point if they break up into hardware and software to release an x86 based Mac OS X. If the hardware no longer has to support the software development as it has, those prices can come down quite a bit and be very competitive.

Now what could get interesting if someone went out on a limb, is see Apple break up into hardware and software. The hardware side becomes even more niche oriented in what it develops with monster multiprocessor systems for Unix markets and one or two cool looking boxes for the consumer and/or executives. The software side on the otherhand would support those systems as well as release an x86 based version. The Windows itunes software would be released when this happens and be a nice intro for getting Windows users to think more about Mac OS X.

Speaking of itunes I'm wondering how much longer before Apple releases an itunes box that connects to a stereo system so that consumers can tap into playing music downloaded off of the itunes store. This might be Apple's trojan for getting into consumer settop market that virtually everyone has failed at. Something like this probably wouldn't be shown at wwdc though but it would be a perfect product to come out this year.

[abdul]

i hope they do release the 970 at wwdc, i dont kno much about it but there a lot of 'to be annoced' patrs in the schedule of wwdc, is that normal?

if they just release it maybe then i can buy an ibook... the g3 is not worth having even at 900mhz, especially when the os is alvitec optimised and the g3 makes no use of this!

sj just release the 970 so you can move the ibook onto a more powerful processor (more powerful i said b4 eeryone says how poerful the g3 is anyway!)

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by Abstract
Ah, that's every Mac-head's pre-programmed answer to the "obsolete" statement. If Macdop doesn't want to buy hardware that WILL become obsolete in 2 months, then good. From your train of thought, I should feel quite happy and comfortable purchasing a Pentium II 400MHz for $3000 since all I need a computer for is internet browsing, MS Word, Excel, and Powerpoint.

Let me put it this way: a Pentium II would fit my needs, but no, I'm definitely not willing to part with $3000 to purchase one. Even for my needs, a new computer that is slower than a P4 2.0GHz is obsolete hardware that I shouldn't pay a premium for. Mac users are paying a premium. My mode of thought can also be used for a G4 Dual 1.42GHz computer, especially when I know a 970 is just around the corner. I want to get the best product for my money, and at this point in time, getting a DP G4 1.42GHz PM isn't in anyone's best interests, no matter what their needs are. A Pentium 1 is obsolete in anybody's book, even if it can still 'technically' be used by some poor shlub.

okay.....

Either you still don't understand what obsolete means or you have a special rumor-site dictionary...

I'll type slowly here... Obsolescence is not related directly to processor speed or price or specs of any sort (though if you're looking for a $3000 PII, I'll be happy to set you up). It is related to usage and is most often subjective. Seldom is an object rendered completely obsolete on its own (8-tracks, Betamax, 5.25" floppies- though I bet there are a few people out there for whom they are not). If your usage moves beyond it, it may become obsolete for you (if you have a contemporary Mac, ADB devices are obsolete for you). To imply that a machine becomes obsolete because of a jump in processor speed is ludicrous. If 10.3 only supported the 970 chipset and you wanted/needed to run it, then yes, current machines would be obsolete to YOU. But that's not going to happen. Desire for a 970 will not make your G4 obsolete. Best interest or foresight may assure you of a product with a slightly longer shelf-life and are very practical reasons for holding off a purchase, but it's not like the release of the 970 is going to change the specs of machines currently available. They are what they are, and frankly, one of those things is overpriced. I wouldn't buy any Apple tower right now and it's not for fear of obsolescence, it's because I think they're a rip-off.

Merriam Webster is your friend. Use him.

[fourthtunz]

Originally posted by Abstract
Ah, that's every Mac-head's pre-programmed answer to the "obsolete" statement.

I guess it depends on whether you actually own a mac.
I'm surfing on the P2 400 mghz machine you were speaking of and the experience is no different than my 7 year old powermac or an xp machine. I do like aol on OSX though:D
Mac is still king in the audio world even on Machines that you would call obsolete. If you were running a render farm you might want pcs but that would be the only reason I could justify it.
Yes Macs are a premium Machine and worth every penny!
Comon were not talking Jaguars here!(ok maybe we are!)
daniel

[Frobozz]

Originally posted by areyouwishing
I agree with this statement to a certain degree. Even though we have shifted our focus slightly (more CD-ROMS, websites, etc.) our primary dollar is earned off collateral material. I wouldn't say business is booming like it was 2 months ago, but I did get a raise last week, so I can't complain too much. :)

Sweet. Glad to hear it.

[dongmin]

Originally posted by macspirit
I must tell you that I am amazed that Apple has waited this long to do something about Motorola's inability (or unwillingness) to keep pace in the area of processor performance. Surely their technical people have been aware of what's been going on for the last couple of years.


This move to the 970 has been in development for a while now, over two years from what I've read (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2002/11/20021124221123.shtml). This kind of processor switch doesn't happen over night.

You should fault Apple for not having had a solid backup plan and depending on Motorola as the sole chip supplier, but I think Apple reacted as fast as they could when the G4's development slowed a few years ago. It has even been rumored that Motorola misled Apple regarding the development of the G5.

[BenRoethig]

Originally posted by dongmin
This move to the 970 has been in development for a while now, over two years from what I've read (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2002/11/20021124221123.shtml). This kind of processor switch doesn't happen over night.

You should fault Apple for not having had a solid backup plan and depending on Motorola as the sole chip supplier, but I think Apple reacted as fast as they could when the G4's development slowed a few years ago. It has even been rumored that Motorola misled Apple regarding the development of the G5.

The Rumor I heard is that Apple had early prototypes of the G5 in their hands when Motorola abruptly stopped all development on "non-profitable desktop chips."

[Abstract]

I know and understand the meaning of the word "obsolete", but despite that fact, I wouldn't buy a 5 year old Mac for $3000, even if it serves my needs quite well. If Macdop can wait, then he should wait for the best machine he can get for his money, since its coming soon.

Personally, I'm considering getting a new iBook now, not later, but only because I don't think Apple is going to ditch the G3 in the iBook completely. The extra 100MHz I can get by waiting 5 months is obviously not worth it, but waiting 1 month for a possible new line of cpu's is definitely a much different situation.

"Oooh, why don't you get a dictionary and look up the word obsolete..." Bah!!! Having problems at home? Are you just not gettin' any?

[war machine]

Seems to me that PowerMac sales would already be tanking due to the release of information about the new 970 chip from IBM and now Business Week. Not to mention the rumor attention this information is recieving. Apple should just realease the 970 equipped machines and start cashing in! I don't know if I could justify buying a new machine now, knowing the G4 chip will be obselete within a year! Could you?

Launch!

[3.1416]

Originally posted by war machine
Apple should just realease the 970 equipped machines and start cashing in!

Um, they would if they could...

[moki]

Originally posted by 3.1416
Um, they would if they could...

Indeed. Apple wants kick-ass machines out more than anyone else does.

[tazznb]

Originally posted by moki
Indeed. Apple wants kick-ass machines out more than anyone else does.

Except me. I may have them beat.

I hope the mobo they'll have start to offer video card support that handle 256Mb ram or more, too.

Maya will be GREATFUL.


Short made with maya. :)