Blu-ray sales helping PS3? Sales against HD-DVD now 2 to 1 [Archive]

pseudobrit

Feb 1, 2007, 05:48 PM

fiercetiger224

Feb 1, 2007, 06:01 PM

The PS3 has dumped hundreds of thousands of Blu-ray players on a market that wasn't primed for a competition. There was and mostly is no demand for standalone 1080p capable disc players. But the PS3 will sell over two million units this year, which will create demand for content. The studios will follow the demand and the BD feedback loop will relegate HD-DVD to the same footnote-in-tech-history status as DIVX and MiniDisc.

Blu-ray won by forfeit.

If HD-DVD were to have had a chance, the 360 would have had to have a drive standard.

Now was it such a bad idea for Sony to throw in the Blu-ray drive for us? If people actually looked at the features of the PS3...And considering the cost, it's a DAMN good value. Eventually people will start catching on. As I've said plenty of times, adding the price of the 360, HD-DVD drive, and wireless, it ends up costing $100 MORE than the PS3. It's great that you have the option of buying an upgrade, but when you have it built in, it's a standard configuration for ALL consoles being sold.

Oh well. Besides, I just like the name Blu-ray compared to HD-DVD. HD-DVD is such a mouthful. Aach-DEE-DEE-VEE-DEE! So many DEEs!!! :rolleyes:

Sam*

Feb 1, 2007, 06:04 PM

hd dvd will 'win'

purley because its got the word dvd in it

its what people know

also in relation to blu ray has more space etc...

what non tech people knows dvd have 4.whatever gb of data? i dont even know the figure

and neither do i care,,,, if my hd movie is on there i'm not bothered about how much space is on the disc

Dagless

Feb 1, 2007, 06:12 PM

Oh well. Besides, I just like the name Blu-ray compared to HD-DVD. HD-DVD is such a mouthful. Aach-DEE-DEE-VEE-DEE! So many DEEs!!! :rolleyes:

hd dvd will 'win'

purley because its got the word dvd in it

its what people know

Um... Quoted for truth?
Why?

I think it's a common story now. My parents were talking about getting a new TV for the living room. They asked me (in their exact words) "Can you get a kind of High Definition DVD player?", I said yes "You just said the name" :D . I asked them "what's blue-ray", to which they shrugged.

they're the market. the money makers (we were in our Spanish villa at the time :cool: ) who know nothing about electronics, don't read tech mags etc.

ps. I've looked on the Toms Hardware site but it's still not there :confused: Anyone else in my boat?

Sam*

Feb 1, 2007, 06:17 PM

.

ps. I've looked on the Toms Hardware site but it's still not there :confused: Anyone else in my boat?

its there under tg news

third link down, on the left, but i still get error\

Edit: Working now it seems?

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/2007/02/01/bluray_beating_hddvd_nielsen/

pseudobrit

Feb 1, 2007, 06:26 PM

they're the market. the money makers... who know nothing about electronics, don't read tech mags etc.

The market isn't going out to buy 1080p players just yet. But a huge chunk of it already bought a PS3.

story also here (via Goolge): http://www.psxextreme.com/ps3-news/768.html

grapes911

Feb 1, 2007, 06:56 PM

I think you'll start seeing more and more players that handle both formats. Neither will win. Sort of like DVD+R and DVD-R.

darkwing

Feb 1, 2007, 09:57 PM

MacRumorUser

Feb 2, 2007, 02:17 AM

I think you'll start seeing more and more players that handle both formats. Neither will win. Sort of like DVD+R and DVD-R.

I agree. I still feel confident BD will survive at least as a data medium, but this is good news I think.

I posted that weeks ago when there was a similar thread.

I honestly dont belive either format will prevail. More and more players will off dual support and consumers will not need to make a choice. so they wont, and we will end up with a DVD+/- scenario.

I also think in 5 years HD content will probably be delivered online via a :apple: TV style device more than a standalone player also.

I think both HD-DVD & BluRay are merely transistional devices.

Doraemon

Feb 2, 2007, 03:52 AM

darkwing

Feb 2, 2007, 06:57 AM

I posted that weeks ago when there was a similar thread.

Yes you did, and I said that was a good thought which is why I started believing it! :)

darkwing

Feb 2, 2007, 06:58 AM

I'm curious what the HD-DVD-people are going to say once Apple adds BlueRay to their systems. ;)

I don't care which one "wins". At the moment I find the amount of money I have to spend in order to get a decent HD setup way too much. I'll just wait and see which one will make the race.

What do you think people will say? It seems people here are loyal to companies. If it's Apple and costs more, it's ok because it's better. If it's Nintendo and performs less, it's ok because it's cheaper. If it's Sony and costs more, it's not ok because it costs more. If it's Blue-Ray it's not ok because it's Sony. :rolleyes:

I just want the format with the highest capacity.

Haoshiro

Feb 2, 2007, 08:16 AM

darkwing

Feb 2, 2007, 08:44 AM

Personally I'll be annoyed if Apple forces either HD-DVD or BD with no choice to downgrade to DVD. The added price isn't worth it to me on any level.

I'm sure there are plenty of people that need more capacity then DVD, at least professionals, but the only thing DVD can't backup for me is my music collection.

I'd prefer to get a nice big USB2 HDD and just backup my data 1:1 then messing with optical discs at all.

I think BD discs will be good for photo professionals who want to save high resolution pictures by the hundreds or possibly the artists who have those 10 gig scans I hear PS can handle. Crazy stuff, but I'm with you! I'd rather have an external hard drive.

pseudobrit

Feb 2, 2007, 07:00 PM

What do you think people will say? It seems people here are loyal to companies. If it's Apple and costs more, it's ok because it's better. If it's Nintendo and performs less, it's ok because it's cheaper. If it's Sony and costs more, it's not ok because it costs more. If it's Blue-Ray it's not ok because it's Sony. :rolleyes:

I just want the format with the highest capacity.

The early adopters are usually geeks. Geeks know what's going on and will go for the best overall technology. Blu-ray is the better specification for high definition video content and data storage.

I also think in 5 years HD content will probably be delivered online via a :apple: TV style device more than a standalone player also.

I think both HD-DVD & BluRay are merely transistional devices.

I don't know about that though. Netflix delivers something like 6 PB of data every day. That's before HD discs. Can the US infrastructure handle the extra traffic?

darkwing

Feb 3, 2007, 11:09 AM

The early adopters are usually geeks. Geeks know what's going on and will go for the best overall technology. Blu-ray is the better specification for high definition video content and data storage.

I don't know about that though. Netflix delivers something like 6 PB of data every day. That's before HD discs. Can the US infrastructure handle the extra traffic?

Interesting thought. I never considered that. I don't think infrastructure will be able to handle that for a looong time. And of course, if it were as easy as having a movie RIGHT NOW (as opposed to waiting a couple days for it to get mailed) then I think that demand would be even higher.

GFLPraxis

Feb 3, 2007, 02:52 PM

I'm curious what the HD-DVD-people are going to say once Apple adds BlueRay to their systems. ;)

Apple supports both formats right now.

People are getting ahead of themselves with downloads.

I work at CompUSA and I sell a lot of Apple USB Modems; tons of people live out where they can't get a high speed internet connection, and satellite internet isn't affordable or very fast (several hundred dollars setup plus around a hundred dollars a month).

Until EVERYONE can get affordable internet access, digital downloads will not replace physical mediums. People prefer to have something physical in their hands. Retailers will cling to physical disks as long as possible as otherwise their products start disappearing. Many people don't have high speed internet access. A lot of places play movies for people in waiting rooms, and it would be a hassle to connect them to the internet.

Digital downloads will become popular, but they won't be replacing physical formats for a long time. Physical disks will always hold more because of bandwidth issues.

grapes911

Feb 3, 2007, 03:21 PM

Apple supports both formats right now.

I know Apple joined the Blu-ray Disc Association. I have not heard of them backing HD-DVD. Do you have an article or something to back this up?

e²Studios

Feb 3, 2007, 03:39 PM

I know Apple joined the Blu-ray Disc Association. I have not heard of them backing HD-DVD. Do you have an article or something to back this up?

Apple never has been in the HD DVD forum, they are only in the Blu-Ray (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2005/mar/10blu-ray.html) Association. In other words Apple doesn't back, support, or have anything to do with HD DVD.

HD DVD will be a thing of the past soon, the war is over. Read my past posts on why, and realize that they lost every exclusive studio they had to Blu-Ray.

See the images attached. The HD DVD ones are it (and short of Toshiba & M$, none shown are exclusive support).. the Blu-Ray ones are just a sample of the 170+ companies that support it.

j26

Feb 3, 2007, 05:16 PM

Apple never has been in the HD DVD forum, they are only in the Blu-Ray (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2005/mar/10blu-ray.html) Association.

HD DVD will be a thing of the past soon, the war is over. Read my past posts on why, and realize that they lost every exclusive studio they had to Blu-Ray.

See the images attached. The HD DVD ones are it (and short of Toshiba, none shown are exclusive support).. the Blu-Ray ones are just a sample of the 170+ companies that support it.

Lets see - I looked at the companies in the image you attached
Apple - done nothing yet
Buena Vista - has released hd dvd already (http://www.hddvdblog.com/archives/2006/08/the-first-buena-vista-pictures-disney-hd-dvd/)
Dell - seems committed to Blu-Ray
Fox - committed
Hitachi - makes hd-dvd media (http://www.engadget.com/2006/06/08/hitachi-and-mitsubishi-have-hd-dvd-r-rw-media-on-the-way/)
HP - making a hd dvd laptop (http://www.hometheatermag.com/convergence/0107hplaptop/)
LG - making a dual format player, so is on both sides of the fence (http://www.a.engadgethd.com/2007/01/30/lg-bh100-hd-dvd-blu-ray-hybrid-player-reviewed/)
Lionsgate
MGM
Mitsubishi - makes hd dvd media (http://www.engadget.com/2006/06/22/mitsubishis-30gb-dual-layer-hd-dvd-r-media-ready-in-july/)
Panasonic
Paramount
Philips
Pioneer
Samsung - obviously very committed to Blu-Ray!!!! (http://www.ecrater.com/product.php?pid=590511)
Sharp - seem committed
Sony - well it is their format
Sony/BMG Sony again?
Sony Pictures And again?
Sun - getting bored now.....
TDK
Thomson
Universal - releasing in hd dvd (http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/halfbaked.html)
Disney
Warner Bros - releasing in both formats (http://www.dvdtown.com/news/marchofthepenguinsinhd/4299)

I'd have done them all, but it's getting boring.

Not all of the allies are married to Blu-Ray. The links above will show that. They're companies and will swing whichever way the wind blows - especially the movie and distribution companies who would be merely changing a format of distribution, and don't even have to go exclusive - they can distribute in both formats.

Personally I don't really care who wins. I have a slight preference for hd-dvd on the simple basis of the price of the media, but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter that much.

Just get this format war over with and let us move on. It's going on longer than Iraqetnam!!

MacRumorUser

Feb 4, 2007, 05:01 AM

in 4-5 years time when somthing completely different is actually the real DVD medium successor, it' will put this silly pissing competition in proper perspective.

I have both formats, and just buy films I want - however at the moment I havent seen any films on BluRay I paticallary want. But if they are selling 2-1 all I can say is there are a lot of movie collections with some real detritus in them. "Crank" versus "Charlie & Choclate factory"? ..... Give me charlie anyday :D

But I stand by my postion - one may win 'the battle' but neither will win 'the war'.......... Same as Philips DCC & MiniDisc, where minidisc won the battle, - 4-5 years later MP3 won the war for digital portable dominance.

baby duck monge

Feb 4, 2007, 08:37 AM

Moving the subject back a bit closer to where it started, I actually see this as a detriment for Sony unless the adoption of Blu-ray is an important part of one of their other business plans.

Sony loses money on each PS3 they sell. They expect to make up for these losses with game sales (which, at least at the moment, are poor). If people are buying PS3s because they play Blu-ray, it may mean that they are not buying them because they play games. If this is true, the PS3 itself may sell well, and Blu-ray movies may sell well, but games may continue to sell poorly. This would cause Sony to lose more money than it ordinarily would because the unit to game ratio would be skewed (and that's to say nothing about the increased cost of the units from simply including the player).

For Sony's sake*, I would hope that either (1) people are not simply buying the PS3 to use as a cheap Blu-ray player, or (2) if they are, they decide they might as well use it to its full potential and buy a couple games to go along with it.

*Note: I don't own or plan on owning a PS3. They're too expensive for my taste, and are more console than I need. When they are more available in my region (or someone is willing to trade theirs for a Target gift card + cash), I will be picking up a Wii. I do hope that Sony doesn't totally lose their market presence with the PS3, though, because consumers need competition with MS in the high-end market to help drive performance gains.

greatdevourer

Feb 4, 2007, 08:57 AM

The early adopters are usually geeks. Geeks know what's going on and will go for the best overall technology. Blu-ray is the better specification for high definition video content and data storage. I may be wrong, but I have a feeling that for HD video, HDDVD is better due to faster read speeds.

As to support, many of you have forgotten the really big guns - the porn industry. HDDVD has a lot of exclusive support and a fair amount of non-exclusive support, whereas BDROM has... little...

grapes911

Feb 4, 2007, 10:15 AM

I may be wrong, but I have a feeling that for HD video, HDDVD is better due to faster read speeds.

I was under the impression that Blu-ray had faster read speeds. :confused:

hvfsl

Feb 4, 2007, 10:17 AM

FleurDuMal

Feb 4, 2007, 10:34 AM

The porn industry is of less importance in deciding which format will win now we have the internet.

But isn't the internet also a format of sorts? Downloading HD digital content could be as much a rival to Blu Ray as HD-DVD. Of course this won't happen any time soon as there are not enough (if any) providers of online HD content, download speeds aren't fast enough, hard drives aren't big enough (and back up solutions aren't integrated enough), DRM still confuses people, and ways of bringing digital content into the living room aren't simple enough yet.

As someone below has mentioned, I see HD DVD vs Blu Ray as very similar to the Minidisc v DCC format war of the mid-90s. It may have minor significance now to the hardcore of geeks, but in the long term the victor will be surpassed when mainstream technology provides an infrastructure capable of popularising downloaded digital content (and companies get their act together regarding DRM), much like MP3 surpassed Minidisc when iTunes & iPod made MP3 simple.

e²Studios

Feb 4, 2007, 10:52 AM

I may be wrong, but I have a feeling that for HD video, HDDVD is better due to faster read speeds.

As to support, many of you have forgotten the really big guns - the porn industry. HDDVD has a lot of exclusive support and a fair amount of non-exclusive support, whereas BDROM has... little...

Vivid entertainment, the largest porn distributor in the world supports blu-ray, along with most other large porn distributors. The blogger that caused the mass hysteria that Sony wouldn't allow porn was just a attention whore that wanted hits to his site, so he made false stories, in other words he was spreading FUD.

I really don't think people see the big picture in this board, they are too blinded by their "i hate all that is Sony" attitudes. Sony does not own blu-ray, nor do they have full control over it. They are on the board of directors, but so is Apple along with many other large companies. HD DVD lost the battle when their encryption was cracked, securing the studios IP is important, and its something that HD DVD cannot do. HD DVD is losing in both software and hardware sales, in the US it is almost 3:1, in Japan Blu-Ray owns 99% of the high definition video market.

Regardless of what Jimmi's mom knows :p , or what the people in here think HD DVD is dead. Losing the ability to protect studio IP is the death stone, HD DVD has lost every exclusive studio they had and short of M$ and Toshiba every hardware exclusive they had. HD DVD is a dying forumat.. R.I.P., face it or just keep your blinders on till the format disappears off the shelves. If all i pointed out was turned around i would be saying the same exact thing about Blu-Ray, but that isn't the situation, HD DVD R.I.P. 2007

Ed

greatdevourer

Feb 4, 2007, 11:16 AM

I was under the impression that Blu-ray had faster read speeds. :confused: As said, I could well be wrong ;)

Vivid entertainment, the largest porn distributor in the world supports blu-ray, along with most other large porn distributors. The blogger that caused the mass hysteria that Sony wouldn't allow porn was just a attention whore that wanted hits to his site, so he made false stories, in other words he was spreading FUD. Vivid are both, as are almost all that aren't HDDVD exclusive

MacRumorUser

Feb 4, 2007, 11:26 AM

Losing the ability to protect studio IP is the death stone, HD DVD has lost every exclusive studio they had and short of M$ and Toshiba every hardware exclusive they had. HD DVD is a dying forumat..

as are almost all that aren't HDDVD exclusive

Come on Ed. That statement is like the Chewbacca Defense... it does not make sense.

Using that same logic, you could easily make the case to say that the PS3's recent game exclusive losses to multiformat releases, indicate that PS3 is a dying format.

We will see more and more releases movie wise on BOTH formats, not because Studio's paticularly support one format over the other, but because studios realise that providing customers with both is the only way to go. We will see both HD-DVD & BluRay happily co-exist, just as we did with DVD+R & DVD-R. Consumers do not want to make the choice, they want to be able to play whatever disc they want. Multiformat releases make more sense, and multiformat players will become the mainstream.

e²Studios

Feb 4, 2007, 11:38 AM

Come on Ed. That statement is like the Chewbacca Defense... it does not make sense.

Using that same logic, you could easily make the case to say that the PS3's recent game exclusive losses to multiformat releases, indicate that PS3 is a dying format.

We will see more and more releases movie wise on BOTH formats, not because Studio's paticularly support one format over the other, but because studios realise that providing customers with both is the only way to go. We will see both HD-DVD & BluRay happily co-exist, just as we did with DVD+R & DVD-R. Consumers do not want to make the choice, they want to be able to play whatever disc they want. Multiformat releases make more sense, and multiformat players will become the mainstream.

It is more the ability to protect IP, when HD DVD's encryption was cracked that was it for the format. Studios are slowley going to pull their IP from HD DVD as they realize that it is not secure on the format, Blu Ray has multiple methods of encryption and security, HD DVD has 1 and its cracked.

Going back to how you analyzed what i said, the PS3 hasn't lost all of their exclusives nor has their security been compromised, HD DVD has lost both. So it's no Chewbacca defense, its the truth. :)

Ed

takao

Feb 4, 2007, 11:41 AM

As someone below has mentioned, I see HD DVD vs Blu Ray as very similar to the Minidisc v DCC format war of the mid-90s. It may have minor significance now to the hardcore of geeks, but in the long term the victor will be surpassed when mainstream technology provides an infrastructure capable of popularising downloaded digital content (and companies get their act together regarding DRM), much like MP3 surpassed Minidisc when iTunes & iPod made MP3 simple.

very likely sums it up
blu ray and hd-dvd or the laserdiscs version 2

Ed H: having microsoft on your side can make up for a lot ...
that aside the current market is so small (or tiny) compared to other media formats that so far it doesn't really matter who is winning at the moment since both are on the loosing side so far

just for some comparisation: 700 million floppy discs get sold every year, and the floppy is considered dead by many apple users since _years_

sikkinixx

Feb 4, 2007, 12:48 PM

Come on Ed. That statement is like the Chewbacca Defense... it does not make sense.

Ladies and gentlemen of the supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider:this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk, but Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now, think about that. That does not make sense!

Why would a Wookiee -- an eight foot tall Wookiee -- want to live on Endor with a bunch of two foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense!

But more importantly, you have to ask yourself: what does that have to do with this argument? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this argument! It does not make sense!

Look at me, I'm a poster, discussing a serious topic, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca. Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense. None of this makes sense.

And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberating and conjugating the Emancipation Proclamation... does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense.

If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must conceed that HD-DVD is dying! Case closed.

bigandy

Feb 4, 2007, 12:51 PM

It is more the ability to protect IP, when HD DVD's encryption was cracked that was it for the format. Studios are slowley going to pull their IP from HD DVD as they realize that it is not secure on the format, Blu Ray has multiple methods of encryption and security, HD DVD has 1 and its cracked.

Going back to how you analyzed what i said, the PS3 hasn't lost all of their exclusives nor has their security been compromised, HD DVD has lost both. So it's no Chewbacca defense, its the truth. :)

Ed

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't HD DVD and Blu Ray use the same encryption?

MacRumorUser

Feb 4, 2007, 12:52 PM

To sikkinixx ^ ROTFLMAO.

That's exactly what was running in my mind when I posted that statement. An early entry into the funniest post of 2007 period :D

e²Studios

Feb 4, 2007, 02:20 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't HD DVD and Blu Ray use the same encryption?

They both use AACS, but HD DVD's method has been cracked. That said even if is applied to BD there are still other methods to keep the IP secure. ROM marking, and BD+

"Blu-ray's latest additions in the security department build upon AACS, and give Blu-ray the appearance of being more secure. BD+ is a dynamic encryption scheme that allows for changing encryption schemes midstream. Should the encryption be cracked, the BDA can update the encryption scheme and put it on all new discs, thus preventing a single crack from opening up the entire BD spec for the duration of its lifetime. The lack of a dynamic encryption model is what made DeCSS so disastrous in the industry's eyes: once CSS was cracked, all DVDs from then on were crackable.

"ROM-Mark," another new addition, will be built into all ROM-producing devices, and prevent the mass counterfeiting of content in the event that a watermark is detected. Through licensing, the BDA believes that it can eliminate the possibility of mass producing BD-ROMs without authorization.

The HD DVD consortium is likely caught off guard by these two new security features. Last week when it learned of Twentieth Century Fox's decision to go with Blu-ray, which was couched primarily in terms of security features, the HD DVD guys were left scratching their heads, as was evident from their comments almost two weeks ago:

"Today's announcement by 20th Century Fox regarding its support of the Blu-ray Disc format is surprising and misleading in terms of which format provides for more robust copy protection. The content protection system of HD DVD provides an equivalent level of security as the system advocated by Fox for Blu-Ray. We also believe the Blu-Ray disc format and proposed copy protection system may result in playability and reliability issues for the consumer."

With BD+ and ROM-Mark, the BDA and Sony have added a powerful one-two punch to Blu-ray's arsenal. Dare I say it, but I think Blu-ray has HD DVD on the ropes."

From Arstechnia

Ed

LethalWolfe

Feb 4, 2007, 02:38 PM

The guy who cracked HD-DVD also cracked Blu-ray, and both BD and HD allow for updates to be made to the encryption scheme.

Lethal

greatdevourer

Feb 4, 2007, 03:25 PM

They both use AACS, but HD DVD's method has been cracked. That said even if is applied to BD there are still other methods to keep the IP secure. ROM marking, and BD+ Blu-Ray is equally cracked, by the same guy, with an almost identical app

e²Studios

Feb 4, 2007, 03:34 PM

Blu-Ray is equally cracked, by the same guy, with an almost identical app

Do you and other users that hate Sony here selectively not see the rest of the post? Yay for blinders, you don't see what you don't want to... :rolleyes:

Ed

gkarris

Feb 4, 2007, 03:38 PM

LG's Combo player and Warner's TotalHD Discs make it all a moot point - we'll be able to play our HD DVDs even though they're not made anymore...

e²Studios

Feb 4, 2007, 03:40 PM

LG's Combo player and Warner's TotalHD Discs make it all a moot point - we'll be able to play our HD DVDs even though they're not made anymore...

Both the LG and Warner "innovations" are doomed for failure in my opinion. There is a big difference between HD DVD and Blu-Ray both in format and hardware, there was a slight format difference between DVD +/- R which makes those arguments that people bring up a moot point in this topic.

Ed

grapes911

Feb 4, 2007, 03:44 PM

Both the LG and Warner "innovations" are doomed for failure in my opinion. There is a big difference between HD DVD and Blu-Ray both in format and hardware, there was a slight format difference between DVD +/- R which makes those arguments that people bring up a moot point in this topic.

Ed

I don't see the difference. Can you explain some more?

LethalWolfe

Feb 4, 2007, 03:48 PM

Do you and other users that hate Sony here selectively not see the rest of the post? Yay for blinders, you don't see what you don't want to... :rolleyes:

Ed
Says the person who talks about HD DVDs crack-ability while neglecting to mention BD has been cracked as well...

Lethal

Gaokaos

Feb 4, 2007, 06:24 PM

Moving the subject back a bit closer to where it started, I actually see this as a detriment for Sony unless the adoption of Blu-ray is an important part of one of their other business plans.

Sony loses money on each PS3 they sell. They expect to make up for these losses with game sales (which, at least at the moment, are poor). If people are buying PS3s because they play Blu-ray, it may mean that they are not buying them because they play games. If this is true, the PS3 itself may sell well, and Blu-ray movies may sell well, but games may continue to sell poorly. This would cause Sony to lose more money than it ordinarily would because the unit to game ratio would be skewed (and that's to say nothing about the increased cost of the units from simply including the player).

...

Just wanted to metion that you missed the major reason for the slow games sales: Lack of games (and even greater lack of decent games)
Once the better games get out games sales will increase, I really doubt a lot of people buy a ps3 for the BR, I think most just see it as an advantage to choosing ps3.

GFLPraxis

Feb 4, 2007, 07:05 PM

Apple never has been in the HD DVD forum, they are only in the Blu-Ray (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2005/mar/10blu-ray.html) Association. In other words Apple doesn't back, support, or have anything to do with HD DVD.

HD DVD will be a thing of the past soon, the war is over. Read my past posts on why, and realize that they lost every exclusive studio they had to Blu-Ray.

See the images attached. The HD DVD ones are it (and short of Toshiba & M$, none shown are exclusive support).. the Blu-Ray ones are just a sample of the 170+ companies that support it.

Yet Apple is on the DVD Forum's member list on their web page.

I also find it interesting that DVD Studio Pro, made by Apple, supports HD-DVD burning...but not Blu-ray.

A thing of the past? The war is over? Don't throw in the towel. HD-DVD players are still cheaper, and this is the first time Blu-ray has outsold HD-DVD *and* it's only the numbers for one week.

We'll see.

GFLPraxis

Feb 4, 2007, 07:07 PM

I don't see the difference. Can you explain some more?

DVD+/-RW were different burnable formats. The end result played in a regular DVD player and were almost identical after you burned them.

Blu-ray and HD-DVD are physically different; different wavelengths and disk designs IIRC.

zap2

Feb 4, 2007, 07:12 PM

Maybe..I have a friend, who is pretty rich, who got a PS3 just because it plays Blue-Ray...I doubt she knows what blue-ray is(other then it plays movies)

I'm not sure she has ever heard of Hd-DVD

Simply put, Blue-Ray is helping sell the PS3 to some, possibly turn others off. (That said she hasn't bought one game yet so its not a huge win for Sony)

e²Studios

Feb 4, 2007, 07:17 PM

Yet Apple is on the DVD Forum's member list on their web page.

So is Sony and about every other large commercial distributor. the PS2 used DVD discs, as proven by the logo on them.

Apple is not a member of the HD DVD forum, and does not support HD DVD in any way shape or form. Being a member of the DVD forum doesn't make you a member of the HD DVD forum.

Ed

e²Studios

Feb 4, 2007, 07:18 PM

Maybe..I have a friend, who is pretty rich, who got a PS3 just because it plays Blue-Ray...I doubt she knows what blue-ray is(other then it plays movies)

I'm not sure she has ever heard of Hd-DVD

This sounds like a "Jimmi's mom defense" that seems so vocal around here... Its worth about a grain of salt.

Ed

zap2

Feb 4, 2007, 07:36 PM

This sounds like a "Jimmi's mom defense" that seems so vocal around here... Its worth about a grain of salt.

Ed

No, thats an example of real people... but I'm not saying she is the norm, I tried to make a point of that, she is far richer then the average comsumer. She just bought a crazy big house for 2 people(my house is about 1/4 of the size and has 5 people in it)

I was simply saying that some people are buy the PS3 only for Blue-Ray, or for blue-ray over gaming.

If you can't see that your blind about this stuff

e²Studios

Feb 4, 2007, 07:39 PM

No, thats an example of real people... but I'm not saying she is the norm, I tried to make a point of that, she is far richer then the average comsumer. She just bought a crazy big house for 2 people(my house is about 1/4 of the size and has 5 people in it)

I was simply saying that some people are buy the PS3 only for Blue-Ray, or for blue-ray over gaming.

If you can't see that your blind about this stuff

If you can't see that she doesn't represent what you think she does then you are blind. I have friends that can counter what your friends say, i just refrain from saying anything since its quite pointless.

I am simply saying that what your rich friends knows or what someones mom, friend, uncle, dog knows isnt enough to say anything for certain, it sure isnt enough to try to represent it as a fact like the people in this board do.

zap2

Feb 4, 2007, 07:43 PM

If you can't see that she doesn't represent what you think she does then you are blind. I have friends that can counter what your friends say, i just refrain from saying anything since its quite pointless.

I am simply saying that what your rich friends knows or what someones mom, friend, uncle, dog knows isnt enough to say anything for certain, it sure isnt enough to try to represent it as a fact like the people in this board do.

I'd agree that just because my friend bought one for reason X that everyone else will buy it for reason X as well. I was simply stating that some people will buy the PS3 as a blue-ray only player, and an example might get my point across.

I have 2 other friends who are buy the PS3 for games, does that mean 67 percent PS3 owners won't buy games? Of couse notb ,but it will be intereting to see the pick up rate of games for PS3 owners vs xBox 360/Wii owners

e²Studios

Feb 4, 2007, 07:46 PM

I'd agree that just because my friend bought one for reason X that everyone else will buy it for reason X as well. I was simply stating that some people will buy the PS3 as a blue-ray only player, and an example might get my point across.

I have 2 other friends who are buy the PS3 for games, does that mean 67 percent PS3 owners won't buy games? Of couse notb ,but it will be intereting to see the pick up rate of games for PS3 owners vs xBox 360/Wii owners

See that makes more sense :) I think the attach rate will be a lot higher once more games launch for the PS3. Game availability is a big issue with the PS3 right now, something a year head start has given the X360 a hand on. As far as the OT goes, i still feel given the events that have happened and the status of the market that HD DVD is dead, or at least on its last leg.

Ed

zap2

Feb 4, 2007, 07:56 PM

i still feel given the events that have happened and the status of the market that HD DVD is dead, or at least on its last leg.

Ed

Ya, I can't see HD-DVD winning, PS3 has blue-ray and no matter what happen the PS3 will sell(worst case is it sells "worse" then Sony wanted, but still decently) plus Blue-Ray has 50Gb vs HD-DVDs 30...even if 30 is "enought" why not go all out to 50? Plus the backing of movie studios...the only thing is the MS and the porn industry.

grapes911

Feb 4, 2007, 09:09 PM

DVD+/-RW were different burnable formats. The end result played in a regular DVD player and were almost identical after you burned them.

Blu-ray and HD-DVD are physically different; different wavelengths and disk designs IIRC.

Yes, but there are now players that play both formats. I really think that in the future most (if not all) players will handle both formats. I think this is exactly like +/-RWs.

e²Studios

Feb 4, 2007, 09:21 PM

I think this is exactly like +/-RWs.

It's totally different (think night and day). Either sides wont let dual format co-exisist. Though to be honest again with light of all the events and numbers, HD DVD is dying, if not dead already.

Ed

grapes911

Feb 4, 2007, 09:27 PM

Either sides wont let dual format co-exisist.

Are you telling me that they are going to go 'Office Space' on every hybrid player developed? Seriously, both formats hanging around is just as plausible as either one winning. Customer demand drives industry. If customers start purchasing hybrid players (once the prices come down some), then there will be no reason for either format to die.

e²Studios

Feb 4, 2007, 09:31 PM

grapes911

Feb 4, 2007, 09:39 PM

There is ONE, read that 1, uno, ichi, ONE, dual format player that was released by LG ...
Actually, there are TWO, read that 2, due, ni, TWO dual format players. Samsung has announced one and it should be out shortly.

But that has nothing to do with my point. I'm concentrating on the future. Probably a few years from now. DVDs where around for a while before they took over as the primary medium for movies. I don't expect HD-DVDs or Blu-ray Disc to take over for a while either.

GFLPraxis

Feb 4, 2007, 09:55 PM

Yes, but there are now players that play both formats. I really think that in the future most (if not all) players will handle both formats. I think this is exactly like +/-RWs.

Players have ALWAYS played both formats. Now there are BURNERS that do both. DVD players have always played both...

And more importantly, the physical mechanism in HD-DVD and Blu-ray is physically different.

e²Studios

Feb 4, 2007, 10:10 PM

Actually, there are TWO, read that 2, due, ni, TWO dual format players. Samsung has announced one and it should be out shortly.

Link? the only proof i can find is from 2005 and early 2006, and then it was dropped. Samsung just released a new BD player though.

Ed

pseudobrit

Feb 4, 2007, 11:57 PM

Are you telling me that they are going to go 'Office Space' on every hybrid player developed? Seriously, both formats hanging around is just as plausible as either one winning. Customer demand drives industry. If customers start purchasing hybrid players (once the prices come down some), then there will be no reason for either format to die.

But consumers won't be buying hybrid players, because consumers aren't buying any high definition players; they're buying PS3s. This was a war that could have been decided by the innovators and very early adopters when the first video players came to market.

But Sony made sure Blu-ray won by sacrificing cash on PS3 sales which are being bought by the early majority in the console market. They bypassed the slower evolution of the set-top box market and went for the kill with a bundling strategy.

It was a gamble, but it's paying off. If Microsoft had the balls to bundle HD-DVD into the 360 stock we'd be having a different conversation.

MacNut

Feb 5, 2007, 12:06 AM

I think the bigger issue is that not many people have HD of any kind yet. For me standard DVD is fine and I don't see any reason why it will change until prices all across the board drop.

greatdevourer

Feb 5, 2007, 12:56 AM

DVD+/-RW were different burnable formats. The end result played in a regular DVD player and were almost identical after you burned them.

Blu-ray and HD-DVD are physically different; different wavelengths and disk designs IIRC. Wavelength is exactly the same. The only difference is the aperture on the lens

e²Studios

Feb 5, 2007, 01:02 AM

Wavelength is exactly the same. The only difference is the aperture on the lens

Here, http://www.cdfreaks.com/reviews/Blu-ray-vs_-HD-DVD/Differences.html . There are more differences, though it wont matter with the crowd in these forums.

Ed

Chundles

Feb 5, 2007, 01:26 AM

I'm sitting out this one.

All the studios and tech companies can keep fighting it out, I'm sticking to DVD until we get a definite winning format. I actually think HD-DVD and Blu-Ray aren't going to be the next generation format everyone thinks they are. They're merely transitional formats.

I have yet to see a HD-DVD title in any shop, nor have I seen a HD-DVD player. I've seen loads of Sony or Samsung Blu-Ray players and a few BD titles but even then not many.

We're way behind the times in terms of new TV technology uptake, most of us don't give a rat's about HD or even digital television - especially since it's going to cost big bucks to get a proper 1080p TV set and all the paraphernalia. Most of us are just putting up with regular analogue TV and DVD with a few SD/ED TVs around. Why? Because it costs a lot of money for anything more.

We're not all that focussed on the TV here, my family is the only family I know with a plasma TV and it's a 42" 1024x768 screen - not even HD. We plugged in our SDTV set top box and our DVD player and it looks great.

Just can't see the point of going to HD - just too exxy at the moment.

greatdevourer

Feb 5, 2007, 01:32 AM

Here, http://www.cdfreaks.com/reviews/Blu-ray-vs_-HD-DVD/Differences.html . There are more differences, though it wont matter with the crowd in these forums.

Ed As far as reading it, I was only aware of the aperture difference (bearing in mind that a lot of the read-related items, such as where the data layer is, are governed by it, and thus are essentially the same bit of information)

MacRumorUser

Feb 5, 2007, 03:27 AM

Ed. Why does it matter so much to you ?

As a person who bought both a Laserdisc, DCC & Minidisc and to big etxtent D.A.T I'm realistically prepared for eventualites of both formats, whatever they be.

But you seem to have taken it on your back to really champion BD, and I dont understand why your so overly negative towards HD-DVD.

For me its movies at the moment that matter and in that regard.....
At the moment for me there is 2 BD movies I have, whereas my HD-DVD collection is 16. I dont see either format at paticualry better than each other. The size issue of BD means very litte movie wise as both seem to offer enough to hold the movie and thats all the matters to me.

grapes911

Feb 5, 2007, 06:59 AM

Link? the only proof i can find is from 2005 and early 2006, and then it was dropped. Samsung just released a new BD player though.

Ed

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Samsung-Will-Launch-a-Hybrid-Blu-Ray-HD-DVD-Player-27637.shtml

From what I hear, they are not going to release it until HD-DVD catches on some more (if that happens).

j26

Feb 5, 2007, 07:14 AM

grapes911

Feb 5, 2007, 07:54 AM

Which one will be better for consumers?
Tough to say.

Will one deliver a better picture?
They both are capable of the same encoding so it shouldn't matter much. Blu-ray can hold more data, but I can't imagine a movie that big that it needs all that space anytime soon. I guess they said that about DVDs. HD-DVD is trying to expand their capacity.

Which will be cheaper?Right now, HD-DVD is. But Blu-ray insist that their price will go down.

Will people be able to rip hd-dvd/bd to their portable player of choice?Technically, in the US riping either, even if it is for personal use, can be seen as a violation of the DMCA and is illegal.

One of the arguments I see here is on encryption. Surely that makes it worse for consumers? I don't fancy paying more for less in either format.In theory, encryption should overall lower the price. Companies pay to develop the encryption and assuming it works and people don't pirate the discs, then the companies sell more and can sell each disc for less money. (I'm not saying in reality it actually works this way, it's just a theory).

thegreatunknown

Feb 5, 2007, 08:21 AM

ChrisK018

Feb 5, 2007, 09:17 AM

I think the porn industry is a little leery of either format. 1080p is not going to flatter very many porn stars, but with Vivid on board with Blu-Ray... they are like the Sony of Porn... or maybe the Microsoft.

It just feels to me like Blu-Ray is going to "win," but that's just based on reading all the MacRumors boards; a clear indicator. More to the point, I'd have to agree with the other posters making the point that HD DVD & Blu-Ray are not going to be around for that long as internet content, hard drives and TV/Internet combo devices get more and more popular.

SpankyPenzaanz

Feb 5, 2007, 09:37 AM

I don't understand why it even matters. It will be years before the average consumer starts to buy players and movies. In that timeframe, think of where set top boxes will be, like the 360 or Apple TV. Streaming HD movies from some gigantic hard drive on your network will be easy therefore when the norm starts to hit the BD/HD-DVD formats we'll be gone and downloading only.

That is my choice so far - I have my itunes purchases and considering :apple:TV but I don't have a HDTV yet and probably won't for at least a year unless prices just bottom out

fiercetiger224

Feb 5, 2007, 11:47 AM

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=5965

Another source for Blu-ray sales overtaking HD-DVD. At this rate, I believe Blu-ray will come out on top. Regardless of the bad press that the PS3 is getting, PS3 sales will be high. Once those games start hitting, everyone will be buying a PS3.

MacRumorUser

Feb 5, 2007, 11:52 AM

^ The same article says it wont outsell HD-DVD until 2009

Despite the recent surge for Blu-ray, the Global Optical Storage Industry Report, published December 2006, says that HD DVD will still be the mainstream in the market during 2007 to 2009, after which Blu-ray is expected to take over the lead

I think come 2010-2011 there will be somthing better, cheaper and more convenient than either of these formats and it will make the whole discussion mute.

srobert

Feb 5, 2007, 12:13 PM

…There are more differences, though it wont matter with the crowd in these forums.

Ed

:confused:

GFLPraxis

Feb 5, 2007, 01:41 PM

But consumers won't be buying hybrid players, because consumers aren't buying any high definition players; they're buying PS3s.

Who is? I don't see it. PS3 sales have not been very good; they're sitting on shelves everywhere.

Lets be honest here; video game console sales are usually pitiful compared to DVD players and cell phones and appliances. PS2 helped drive DVD sales, but only because it was the first console out the gate and DVD was the standard format. There is no standard format this time around and people already have XBox 360s.

GFLPraxis

Feb 5, 2007, 01:44 PM

Which one will be better for consumers?

Will one deliver a better picture?
Which will be cheaper?
Will people be able to rip hd-dvd/bd to their portable player of choice?

One of the arguments I see here is on encryption. Surely that makes it worse for consumers? I don't fancy paying more for less in either format.

No picture difference. HD-DVD is cheaper. People won't be able to rip either because of the encryption, except the technophiles.

Technically, in the US riping either, even if it is for personal use, can be seen as a violation of the DMCA and is illegal.

Not quite...
It is legal to backup anything you own for personal use. That's a clause in a law somewhere. The DMCA makes it illegal to break encryption.

I consider it a contradiction. It is 100% legal to rip DVDs that aren't encrypted though. It's questionable on the legality of ripping encrypted DVDs though, one law says yes, one says no.

It just feels to me like Blu-Ray is going to "win," but that's just based on reading all the MacRumors boards; a clear indicator. More to the point, I'd have to agree with the other posters making the point that HD DVD & Blu-Ray are not going to be around for that long as internet content, hard drives and TV/Internet combo devices get more and more popular.

Macrumors is the most pro-Blu-ray board I read; mainly because Apple verbally supports it, thus all the fans must hail and worship their decision, even though Apple hasn't really done anything to help it. Everywhere else everyone expects Blu-ray to flop.

sikkinixx

Feb 5, 2007, 02:56 PM

Macrumors is the most pro-Blu-ray board I read; mainly because Apple verbally supports it, thus all the fans must hail and worship their decision, even though Apple hasn't really done anything to help it. Everywhere else everyone expects Blu-ray to flop.

I have noticed the same, although on most boards I have poked around in the general agreement is that both will fail. I hope that BR wins out because I don't wanna have to buy an HD-DVD player :D

MR is an oddly spilt place, pretty pro-BR but neutral HD-DVD, generally loathes Sony, loves with all its heart Nintendo and hates MS in computers or Zune but loves them with xbox.

ChrisK018

Feb 5, 2007, 02:58 PM

Macrumors is the most pro-Blu-ray board I read; mainly because Apple verbally supports it, thus all the fans must hail and worship their decision, even though Apple hasn't really done anything to help it. Everywhere else everyone expects Blu-ray to flop.

My remark was tongue-in-cheek, but it is not surprising that with Apple's association with Blu-Ray that these boards want it to succeed.

It seems more likely to me that instead of either format winning or flopping, some better, less expensive technology is going to come along. DVD-audio vs Sony's SACD never really got off the ground because of digital MP3's. Yes, we all (or should) know that to music purists a poorly compressed sound file sounds like garbage, yet most people can't tell the difference. Critical mass was never gained for either those two music formats even though there are combo players that can play both.

The PS3 needs good games, and a heck of a lot of exclusive ones, to save it's bacon rather than movie studio backing.