Wozniak, Jobs, and Pirates [Archive]

MacRumors

Jun 5, 2003, 01:44 AM

SunSpot.net posts (http://www.sunspot.net/technology/custom/pluggedin/bal-mac060503,0,7125240.column?coll=bal-business-indepth) Part I of an interview with Steve Wozniak -- cofounder of Apple.

The interview covers some interesting areas, including Wozniak's personal relationship with Jobs. Woz also discusses the accuracy of Pirates of Sillicon Valley (http://www.macrumors.com/cgi-bin/adcycle1.17/adclick.cgi?cid=11&mid=31&gid=7&id=1145) -- the made for TV dramatization of the early days of Steve Jobs and Bill Gates.

Steve Wozniak's personal site (http://www.woz.org/) has many personal comments -- including previous responses to the Pirates' movie and other general notes.

mac15

Jun 5, 2003, 01:49 AM

cool interview, everyone must go and grab pirates of silicon valley

vniow

Jun 5, 2003, 01:58 AM

Is it on DVD yet?

*hates her VCR*

cb911

Jun 5, 2003, 02:21 AM

that's an interesting interview. the only other stuff i know about Wozniak is what i saw on a program about "Phreaking" a while ago. always good to learn a bit about the history of Apple. :)

chewbaccapits

Jun 5, 2003, 02:56 AM

Intresting that many of the events in the movie are accurate..."How much of it really happened and how much was fictionalized? (journalist)

Every one of the events happened. Every one of them. That's what shocked me." -Woz

gotohamish

Jun 5, 2003, 03:05 AM

But it's funny because, sometimes, I'll report something that's serious -- just not working -- like [a new drive] just doesn't work with Apple's new PowerBooks. And, sometimes, I get told: "Oh, you're wrong. No, everything works." And sometimes I'll get the top manager at Apple: "Oh, yeah, they work fine." They work fine if you've got some special set-up program, but not what Apple ships.

V. interesting...:rolleyes:

GeneR

Jun 5, 2003, 03:06 AM

Pretty interesting indeed. Can't wait for the second part of this interview. :D

trebblekicked

Jun 5, 2003, 03:07 AM

i love reading about woz. i wish he'd had better luck in the biz world post apple. i heard he did a lecture here a couple months back, but for whatever reason i couldn't go. i've never seen the movie. was it any good?

alset

Jun 5, 2003, 03:10 AM

Every time I read anything with Woz, I get knocked back by how down to Earth he is. Great interview. Waiting for part two.

Dan

MacsRgr8

Jun 5, 2003, 03:20 AM

Originally posted by trebblekicked

i've never seen the movie. was it any good?

I thought it was a bit frustrating, really.... :rolleyes:

kristianm

Jun 5, 2003, 03:26 AM

Here in Norway it was on Canalplus a year ago or so. Actually before I got my first Apple computer, I have two now.

Carter from ER is doing Jobs, and Bill Gates and Balmer has some decente actors as well.

The movie was fun, but I have no idea how accurate it was.

C14ru5

Jun 5, 2003, 03:31 AM

Originally posted by alset
Every time I read anything with Woz, I get knocked back by how down to Earth he is....which is exactly OPPOSITE of Jobs. That's why they make such a good team.

bdkennedy1

Jun 5, 2003, 05:28 AM

And this has to do with this site, how?

Huked on Fonick

Jun 5, 2003, 06:23 AM

It was a really good movie, i have a copy of it somewhere, i dont think its on Dvd it was made by like TNN or someone kinda low budget, good reserch and stuff....Dont know who realised it on VHS but idotn think its big enough to make it to DVD.

Winston Smith

Jun 5, 2003, 07:25 AM

Originally posted by bryank1
And this has to do with this site, how?

LOL, without WOZ its very arguble we wouldn't have this site as Apple wouldn't exist.

RandomDeadHead

Jun 5, 2003, 07:39 AM

And this has to do with this site, how?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: If you have to ask, you will never know. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

mangoman

Jun 5, 2003, 07:52 AM

Originally posted by alset
Every time I read anything with Woz, I get knocked back by how down to Earth he is. Great interview. Waiting for part two.

Dan

My thoughts exactly. The overall tone of his website reflects this as well. Seems like the kinda guy you could have a beer with, ya know? And judging by his Segway photos (on his website), it seems that a .40 ouncer of Budweiser would be the beverage of choice...

NatronB

Jun 5, 2003, 09:03 AM

Anthony Michael Hall ("The Breakfast Club," "16 Candles") played Gates. Noel Wylie (ER) played jobs.

The movie was pretty good, even from a non-Apple-fan standpoint.

It's available on VHS, but not DVD. I check every few months.

By .40 ouncer, I assume you mean a 40 oz. beverage. I do not believe Budweiser makes a 40.

And why would you want it when Old E is so delicious?

-N

smaffei

Jun 5, 2003, 09:16 AM

Originally posted by Huked on Fonick
It was a really good movie, i have a copy of it somewhere, i dont think its on Dvd it was made by like TNN or someone kinda low budget, good reserch and stuff....Dont know who realised it on VHS but idotn think its big enough to make it to DVD.

It would sell.

Have you see some of the other crap that is floating to the surface on DVD? Why? It's much cheaper to mass market than VHS.

I just picked up TNT's "Joan of Arc" on DVD for $5.88 at Wal-Mart. So TNT could put it out if they wanted to.

It would sell nicely for $15.00 on DVD. We just have to convince TNT (or whoever owns the distribution rights) that there is a market.

tjwett

Jun 5, 2003, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by NatronB
By .40 ouncer, I assume you mean a 40 oz. beverage. I do not believe Budweiser makes a 40.

-N

ofcourse Bud makes 40s. here's a chick using a few to get her workout on. silly me, i used to just drink them.

Bozola

Jun 5, 2003, 11:14 AM

True.. but only a 3% Market...
:D
Bozola

Originally posted by smaffei
It would sell.

Have you see some of the other crap that is floating to the surface on DVD? Why? It's much cheaper to mass market than VHS.

I just picked up TNT's "Joan of Arc" on DVD for $5.88 at Wal-Mart. So TNT could put it out if they wanted to.

It would sell nicely for $15.00 on DVD. We just have to convince TNT (or whoever owns the distribution rights) that there is a market.

rog

Jun 5, 2003, 11:30 AM

He didn't say anything about the 970 did he?

noverflow

Jun 5, 2003, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by rog
He didn't say anything about the 970 did he?

you could read the interview, it is quite small.

but no, he did not.

Mudbug

Jun 5, 2003, 12:44 PM

and blow me down. This was a good movie - caught it the first go 'round. I'd get the DVD if it was there... I've stopped buying VHS tapes out of spite for my VCR - that and they don't fit too well in the slot drive on the TiBook.

Rincewind42

Jun 5, 2003, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by gotohamish
But it's funny because, sometimes, I'll report something that's serious -- just not working -- like [a new drive] just doesn't work with Apple's new PowerBooks. And, sometimes, I get told: "Oh, you're wrong. No, everything works." And sometimes I'll get the top manager at Apple: "Oh, yeah, they work fine." They work fine if you've got some special set-up program, but not what Apple ships.

V. interesting...:rolleyes:

Heh, I thought so too. But then, you realize that Woz it often talking to executives that tell him it works out of the box - not engineers. As an engineer type myself, I know that I have often told the higher-ups "Yes it works" which really means "It works if you do these steps in order, and no, those steps aren't necessarily obvious or simple". And don't ask if those steps are documented... never ask if they are documented :D!

Doctor Q

Jun 5, 2003, 01:09 PM

Interviewer: When you built the Apple I, you had to offer it to H-P because you worked for them, right?

Woz: I don't know if most people would think that way, but I had this real strong ethical background that came from my father.Interesting answer, considering that he was a blue-box toting phone phreak.

Winston Smith

Jun 5, 2003, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by Doctor Q
Interesting answer, considering that he was a blue-box toting phone phreak.

LOL - and yet he wouldn't build a transmitter as he didn't want to pollute the airwaves could have had a sort of wireless display 20 years ago!

erockerboy

Jun 5, 2003, 01:21 PM

Can someone give a brief history of Xerox's "original" GUI-based operating system (the one that Apple/Msoft supposedly "stole" from them in "Pirates of Silicon Valley")?

NatronB

Jun 5, 2003, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by tjwett
ofcourse Bud makes 40s. here's a chick using a few to get her workout on. silly me, i used to just drink them.

Apologies.

My question remains, why not go for the extra hoppy goodness of Old E? Or Steel Reserve?

-N

vniow

Jun 5, 2003, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by vniow
Is it on DVD yet?

*hates her VCR*

Hmmm....guess not..

Doctor Q

Jun 5, 2003, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by erockerboy
Can someone give a brief history of Xerox's "original" GUI-based operating system (the one that Apple/Msoft supposedly "stole" from them in "Pirates of Silicon Valley")? The Alto computer (http://members.fortunecity.com/pcmuseum/alto.html) with its graphical interface was developed by Xerox's Palo Alto Reseach Center (http://www.parc.xerox.com/company/history/) in 1973. Steve Jobs got a tour of PARC (http://faculty-gsb.stanford.edu/mendelson/computer_history/MAC.HTM) that inspired him to create the Macintosh. Microsoft copied Apple and the rest is history!

BaghdadBob

Jun 5, 2003, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by NatronB
Apologies.

My question remains, why not go for the extra hoppy goodness of Old E? Or Steel Reserve?

-N

Red Hook is the domestic beer of the future. Get on board before it gets too trendy... Lucky me, I now live close to their breweries -- having a big delicious birthday Amber Ale right now -- bmuwahahahahaha!

OT, I liked the little scene between Jobs and Gates: "What's this you've been working on, this, what is it, WINDOWS?!?!?" (paraphrased).

Its kinda funny to think of Gates being a junior partner to Jobs in any enterprise. Makes me wonder how much of the Evil Empire is based on Jobs' abuse of him.....food for thought...I think....

JediMacster

Jun 5, 2003, 02:26 PM

wow... slow rumor day :(

AAAnyway, the movie was my main tool during college to turn the tide of the Mac-haters. I remember screening the movie with some of my Windoze-lovin' friends. After the movie ended, they were all like: "Damn, Bill gates is a major a-hole!" or "So that's what happened!"

I felt like an evangelist, spreading the word of Steve; much like I still am today! :D

:o "Repent, ye Window sinners, be it 95 or 98, 2K to NT! The way of the Apple is at hand!!"

erockerboy

Jun 5, 2003, 02:51 PM

Doctor Q

Jun 5, 2003, 03:21 PM

Great member name, JediMacster!

Speaking of humor, I saved a knock-knock joke that Woz distributed to his friends by e-mail in July 2002. You can probably guess who SJ and SW are. Pay attention to who says what and you'll get the joke.

SJ: Knock Knock.

SW: Who's there?

SJ: Control Freak.

SJ: Now YOU say 'Control freak who?'.

AmbitiousLemon

Jun 5, 2003, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by Doctor Q
The Alto computer (http://members.fortunecity.com/pcmuseum/alto.html) with its graphical interface was developed by Xerox's Palo Alto Reseach Center (http://www.parc.xerox.com/company/history/) in 1973. Steve Jobs got a tour of PARC (http://faculty-gsb.stanford.edu/mendelson/computer_history/MAC.HTM) that inspired him to create the Macintosh. Microsoft copied Apple and the rest is history!

Actually Apple didn't 'steal' the GUI. Apple paid Zerox for the GUI concept. This was a big point in the Apple-MS lawsuit. Apple paid for the concept but MS was allowed to steal far more than just the original concept.

painandgreed

Jun 5, 2003, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
Actually Apple didn't 'steal' the GUI. Apple paid Zerox for the GUI concept. This was a big point in the Apple-MS lawsuit. Apple paid for the concept but MS was allowed to steal far more than just the original concept.

IIRC...what the hell, it's a rumor...

Back in the day when Apple was up and coming and wasn't public yet, Xerox wanted to buy stock. Apple (Jobs, Woz, etc.) knew that Xerox PARC was where new and creative new things were being developed (because of some old employees who now worked for Apple told them so) so they made a tour of PARC as well as permission to use whatever they observed there part of the stock trade. What they saw was a GUI where icons represented commands. What they thought they saw was a GUI where icons represented the files on the computer and a way to navigate those files. Thus, the Mac GUI wasn't even really borrowed from Xerox, but was created by mistake. The other big idea they pulled out of PARC was the mouse which also made it into the Mac. The third big idea that was floating around PARC at the time was object oriented programing, which they didn't pick up on and incororate into the Mac.

AmbitiousLemon

Jun 5, 2003, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by painandgreed
IIRC...what the hell, it's a rumor...

Back in the day when Apple was up and coming and wasn't public yet, Xerox wanted to buy stock. Apple (Jobs, Woz, etc.) knew that Xerox PARC was where new and creative new things were being developed (because of some old employees who now worked for Apple told them so) so they made a tour of PARC as well as permission to use whatever they observed there part of the stock trade. What they saw was a GUI where icons represented commands. What they thought they saw was a GUI where icons represented the files on the computer and a way to navigate those files. Thus, the Mac GUI wasn't even really borrowed from Xerox, but was created by mistake. The other big idea they pulled out of PARC was the mouse which also made it into the Mac. The third big idea that was floating around PARC at the time was object oriented programing, which they didn't pick up on and incororate into the Mac.

not sure what you are upset about. you just agreed with me. apple compensated xerox. windows users always try to say well apple stole from xerox. this isn't true. apple had permission to use what steve observed.

painandgreed

Jun 5, 2003, 05:57 PM

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
not sure what you are upset about. you just agreed with me. apple compensated xerox. windows users always try to say well apple stole from xerox. this isn't true. apple had permission to use what steve observed.

Not upset, just expanding to fill in details. :-)

solvs

Jun 5, 2003, 09:15 PM

Well thank you both for helping to dispel the myth that Apple was no better than M$. Apple got some ideas from Xerox, Xerox got some compensation. Whereas M$ (Gates, really) bought some crappy software (DOS) from a guy in a basement, which they had already licensed to IBM before even owning it, for much more (and more than it was worth), but still retained ownership of it ("hardware is where the $$$ is" says IBM), then pretended to be nice to Apple to directly STEAL it's UI, and beat Apple at their own game (releasing Windows in Japan), eliminating competition though unfair business practices, further stealing other's software (and making a crappier version of it), thus creating a Monopoly.

Let me know if I missed anything.

-

That's not just business as usual, it should have been illegal - so where is the US Government in all of this?

bretm

Jun 5, 2003, 10:20 PM

Funny, I came away thinking, wow, I knew Gates was an a, but Jobs is too!

Now when I see jobs in his keynotes, I see Noah. I keep wondering what the hell he's doing to all the OSX programmers.

Originally posted by JediMacster
wow... slow rumor day :(

AAAnyway, the movie was my main tool during college to turn the tide of the Mac-haters. I remember screening the movie with some of my Windoze-lovin' friends. After the movie ended, they were all like: "Damn, Bill gates is a major a-hole!" or "So that's what happened!"

I felt like an evangelist, spreading the word of Steve; much like I still am today! :D

:o "Repent, ye Window sinners, be it 95 or 98, 2K to NT! The way of the Apple is at hand!!"

bretm

Jun 5, 2003, 10:26 PM

Hmmm... I seem to recall reading an interview of one of the engineers at PARC who was hired by Apple to design their first GUI. Along with many others of course. He said they took the concept and expanded on it, but he didn't bring with him a lick of code. It was all recreated from scratch, since recreating was pretty much better anyway.

So with that in mind, how did the programmers create something by mistake? I'd think this guy knew what was going on at PARC. Maybe the icons were just commands. But I wouldn't call it a mistake. I'd call it an idea.

I'll try to hunt down that interview. It was great.

Originally posted by painandgreed
IIRC...what the hell, it's a rumor...

Back in the day when Apple was up and coming and wasn't public yet, Xerox wanted to buy stock. Apple (Jobs, Woz, etc.) knew that Xerox PARC was where new and creative new things were being developed (because of some old employees who now worked for Apple told them so) so they made a tour of PARC as well as permission to use whatever they observed there part of the stock trade. What they saw was a GUI where icons represented commands. What they thought they saw was a GUI where icons represented the files on the computer and a way to navigate those files. Thus, the Mac GUI wasn't even really borrowed from Xerox, but was created by mistake. The other big idea they pulled out of PARC was the mouse which also made it into the Mac. The third big idea that was floating around PARC at the time was object oriented programing, which they didn't pick up on and incororate into the Mac.