Notes from Apple's Meeting with Indies

[MacRumors]

On June 5th, Apple met (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/06/20030603184339.shtml) with independent labels to discuss adding their content to the iTunes Music service.

CD Baby! (http://cdbaby.net/itunes) provides some very interesting notes from the meeting. According the site, approximately 150 representatives attended and received a 2 1/2 hour session on the iTunes Music Service.

The current rate of sales of the iTunes Music Store is 500,000 songs a week, with a total sales of 3-5 million. Another interesting stat is the ratio of previews:sales which is 10:1, indicating 10 previews for every sale. The notes also provide details on the way the iTunes music store works as well as Apple's policies on music distribution. The overriding theme seems to be equal-opportunities for all comers, with no special deals or treatment. "Same deal. Same agreements. Same team of people. Same treatment, all-around."

Payment details were not specified and will be provided with individual contracts. As expected, individual artists may not participate. You must be signed to an "iTunes partner".

[mangoman]

Right ON! This is great news. Time to spend even MORE money in the iTunes store...

[Floop]

I mean, how does it work?

Will the distributors courier over boxes of CDs to Apple, for them to log in a database, then rip in iTunes 4, then put the encoded file into some directory?

Do they have a massive warehouse - like at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark - filled with CDs upon CDs?

Do the distributors give Apple information on what tracks they are allowed to rip, or does Apple have to figure that out by reading the copyright information on each track?

I would like some information about this, simply because it is such a cool idea, I want to know how it works. Maybe there will be a show on Discover Channel about it soon :-)

Floop

[arn]

Originally posted by Floop

I would like some information about this, simply because it is such a cool idea, I want to know how it works. Maybe there will be a show on Discover Channel about it soon :-)

Floop

Read the Linked Article

[.a]

no word about europe? have there been any european labels?
i hope, the service will be very soon world-wide. people talking about by the end of the year. but i hope apple will surprise us...
.a

[freddiecable]

I agree - when does it come for us non-US-residents!? It's really going to increase sales with support for Europe!

[robbieduncan]

Sound like (why am I surprised) Apple is being pretty fair. The same deal for everyone (sort of - were any non-US indies invited?). But I'm not sure it's exactly the same deal. For example the artical states that albums cannot sell for more than the total of their tracks, that individual tracks cannot be more than 99c and all individual tracks have to be for sale seperatly (unless they are more than 7 minutes long). Some Pink Floyd albums already up retain for $9.99, have ~ 5 tracks. Now as the songs are more than 7 minutes long maybe it works. I'm sure I saw some other albums where the individual tracks were not available and the tracks were less than 7 minutes long.

[Toodles]

Originally posted by Floop
Will the distributors courier over boxes of CDs to Apple, for them to log in a database, then rip in iTunes 4, then put the encoded file into some directory?

The article does give the answer to this, but just to note - the same thing applies to all the major labels - Apple hasn't encoded any of the music.

Originally posted by robbieduncan
Sound like (why am I surprised) Apple is being pretty fair. The same deal for everyone (sort of - were any non-US indies invited?).

I don't know whether they were invited to that event, but one of the UK indie associations has already been in talks with Apple. The association is now going around the labels getting them to sign on.

[Floop]

Originally posted by arn
Read the Linked Article

Good idea! I had forgotten about that (d'oh).

For anyone that didn't read that article - like stoopid ol' me - it is extremely interesting.

For instance - Apple charges the distributors NOTHING... and the distributors do the encoding and uploading THEMSELVES - cunning!

[Nutzoids]

It would be cool if some Local un-signed bands could upload songs so others can have them as well!

[robbieduncan]

Originally posted by Nutzoids
It would be cool if some Local un-signed bands could upload songs so others can have them as well!

The site linked above with the artical seems to more or less offer this at the moment with real physical CDs. They state that they are going to become an iTMS partner. So by using them pretty much any band will be able to get on iTMS (not sure whether you'll have to provide CDs to cdbaby to sell as well or whether they'll let you send them a CDR to put on iTMS).

[peterjhill]

After recently listening to "The Second Coming of Steve Jobs" I hope that Steve does not retaliate against cdbaby. He can be pretty tough (very very very tough) on people who steal his thunder.

My first purchase from the cdbaby catalog will definitely be:
Prozac for Lovers (http://cdbaby.com/cd/prozak)
A mellow lounge duo doing classic hard rock cover songs. Bowie and The Clash as bossa nova? The ultimate lounge party CD. Dripping with sarcasm, dusted with irony, drowned in cynicism.

This could turn apple into a very big player in the music distribution industry. I like how Apple bases the top sellers on the last 24 hours of sales. I often preview artists I have never heard if I see them on the lists.

I am up to 135 purchased tracks...

[TylerL]

...interesting.
If labels do the actual encoding, and Apple does the 30 second previews, then Apple would be encoding previews from the compressed version.
...meaning that the previews DO sound worse than the actual songs like was mentioned awhile ago.

[drastik]

Originally posted by peterjhill


I am up to 135 purchased tracks...

I'm up there with you. Apple hit a great idea aimed at people like me. I had fallen out of the habit of buying CDs because I hate so much popular music, but now I can preview at home and pick and choose, My music spending is through the roof.

Having the indies on board will be a great help, I just hope they go for some hip-hop labels. I'd love some real undergroud stuff, like Aceyalone or Abstract Rude, PRoject Blowed, Freestyle Fellowship, all would be cool. Then Roots Manuva in England and there's a whole slew of French MC's and german MCs.... maybe I should just email iTMS about it, I'm getting all excited.

[Stella]

Hi

That article is excellent, gives a good insight of how things worked.

Good to see that each company gets the same deal, no favours. Also, that Apple don't take 'bribes' (money) to put extra content up.

HOWEVER, I really hope all this indy stuff isn't slowing down the process of Apple negoating to bring the service to the *rest* of the world - ie, the majority population.

[JLL]

Originally posted by TylerL
...interesting.
If labels do the actual encoding, and Apple does the 30 second previews, then Apple would be encoding previews from the compressed version.
...meaning that the previews DO sound worse than the actual songs like was mentioned awhile ago.

Why? I don't think the previews are reencoded.

[snahabed]

CDBaby looks so cool! I never heard of it before, so thanks everyone :)

Has anyone bought stuff from them? I am just curious as to whether one has to go all out (e.g, get a professional printer to do jewel case inserts and cd labels) or if Discus is good enough :-D

[Ugg]

The fact that Apple will not accept positioning money is excellent! No chance of payola scams. The info about exclusive tracks is very, very interesting. Apple wants to be the source for tracks that can be found nowhere else and might provide extra exposure to groups who do so. Very smart move. Also, the licensing agreement is non-exclusive meaning that Apple will not monopolize the industry.

Very encouraging information. I hope iTunes goes global soon, selling and buying music, and the M$ version comes out within a couple of months.

Way to go!

[nitz]

That has to be a typo right? Wasn't it somewhere under 5bil at the last stockholders meeting?

[nosaj72]

CDBaby is cool. I've bought a few CDs off of them. (A band called "The Bears"). They are a first class operation with a great sense of humor. I highly recomend them.

I'm excited to think they might be part of the iTunes store. The main problem with it I have so far is its lack of more interesting music...

[zarathustra]

I am looking forward to the day, when I launch iTMS and can browse music from independent labels, say in : Iceland or Hungary! Here is with fingers crossed that I can buy a CD from Kispál és a Borz for under $9.99! ;)

PS:

I lived in Hungary and got hooked on them, in case you wonder who Kispál és a Borz is.

[iJed]

10 previews for every sale may be good but this will improve once international users are actually able to buy songs. I live in the UK and have browsed through iTMS quite a few times and previewed songs. Sadly I am unable to buy them at present but hopefully this will change soon.

[macFanDave]

>> $41 billion in the bank?


>> That has to be a typo right? Wasn't it somewhere under 5bil at the last stockholders meeting?


That's off by a decimal point, it should be $4.1 billion ($4,1 thousand million US dollars to you Europeans.)

[yzedf]

Still locks out the true independent bands (ie not signed with anyone). "iTMS partner..."



planeside (http://www.planeside.com/) is a good example. (friend of a friend)

[matty8r]

Originally posted by yzedf
Still locks out the true independent bands (ie not signed with anyone). "iTMS partner..."


CD Baby said that they would be a conduit for the true independents. Sounds good to me.

[whooleytoo]

Originally posted by Toodles
The article does give the answer to this, but just to note - the same thing applies to all the major labels - Apple hasn't encoded any of the music.


Aww...

I had this image of an email arriving at the big labels...

"Hi,

I'd like to buy some music.

I'd like one of *EVERYTHING* please.

That's great, thanks very much.

S.J. @ infinite.loop

:)

[Ugg]

Originally posted by yzedf
Still locks out the true independent bands (ie not signed with anyone). "iTMS partner..."



planeside (http://www.planeside.com/) is a good example. (friend of a friend)

Yeah, but like Apple says they don't want to deal with 200 lawyers. If a band were to go through cdbaby they would probably get a much better deal than going to a label. It is part of the reinvention of music distribution. Hopefully there will be more winners than losers.

[ear2ear]

I have an album I'm putting on CDbaby soon too so its great to see that my music will available here too.

[pyrotoaster]

Quote from CDBaby! (http://www.cdbaby.net/itunes/)
Macs in 57 Apple retail stores are pre-loaded with playlists called, "Discover Indie Music". A chance at in-store play.
That sounds very interesting. I remember rumors that Apple might start selling iTMS music at Apple Retail Stores. Kinda sounds like Apple's aiming to do that...

[reedm007]

Originally posted by yzedf
Still locks out the true independent bands (ie not signed with anyone). "iTMS partner..."

planeside (http://www.planeside.com/) is a good example. (friend of a friend)

This has already eben addressed somewhat, but CDBaby is not a company that signs bands. If you write music and want to distribute it, you can do it on CDBaby.

They've been really great so far, and I'm REALLY excited that my music might be getting posted on iTMS now as well. CDBaby is a great site, and having a direct link for artists like myself (who certainly are not signed) to the iTMS is wonderful news.

The only thing this means is that I, personally, can't contact Apple and work out a seperate deal. That's a good thing, becuause otherwise Apple would have millions of individual contracts, which would be a nightmare.

[patmcfar8]

"Every album needs to have a UPC Barcode! You have to use their special Music Store Encoder tool for Mac OS X which will be released in 90 days or so."

If I read this right, then Indie lables won't be able to add their music to the iTMS until after they have this software available 90 days from now. Also notice that the software is only available for OS X, which means that the Indie labels will have to buy a Mac if they don't already have one to upload their music. ;-)

Does this also mean that a Windows version of iTMS is more than 90 days away?!

iTMS has been amazingly successful thus far, and I believe Apple has moved rather quickly considering all that goes into an undertaking of this magnitude. However I hope Apple finds a way to speed this proccess up!

Here are a few things on my iTMS wishlist:
1. More music - Apple is adding to it at a very good pace, but the more they have, the more they can sell.
2. Windows Support - It's such a huge market, I'd hope this is Apple's number one priority!*
3. World Wide Support - This is a HUGE task in it's own right considering the differences in every countries own laws, monetary values and licensing restrictions. Good luck with this aspect Apple.
4. Complete dominance of the online music market! HAAAA HAA HA HA, Ha... ha. Um, anyway moving on...

*Sometimes I wonder if Apple might be dragging its feet over this. Instead of thinking that the Windows iTMS market is a huge opportunity to expand iTMS and infiltrate the Windows world, maybe they're thinking that iTMS is a strong enough selling point to help convince people in the Windows world to "switch" on over to the light side... just a thought. ;)

[jimthorn]

The stat I was interested in seeing (which wasn't in the article) is how many songs is Apple adding every week? How many songs are they up to now?

And I wish there was an easy way to see a list of just the new stuff added each week.

Personally, I'm happy with the service so far, and the addition of lots of smaller/indie labels is great news.

[pyrotoaster]

Originally posted by patmcfar8
Does this also mean that a Windows version of iTMS is more than 90 days away?!
The Windows version of iTMS is months away. Apple has to write the code for an entire Windows version of iTunes.

We'll see Windows iTMS by year's end, but not any time this summer. Not just is there code to write, but the major five record labels haven't agreed to a Windows version of the music store, yet.

[Ugg]

Originally posted by pyrotoaster
The Windows version of iTMS is months away. Apple has to write the code for an entire Windows version of iTunes.

We'll see Windows iTMS by year's end, but not any time this summer. Not just is there code to write, but the major five record labels haven't agreed to a Windows version of the music store, yet.

Everybody seems to think that just because Apple posted its job listing for a Windows programmer for iTunes after the debut of the music store that they hadn't yet begun development of a Windows version. I highly doubt that Apple would be so stupid as to wait that long.

The reason the record companies went along with Apple's version is that it was only available to Apple computer users. I'm sure that if we were to see a copy of the contract, it would be clear that it is not Apple holding up the release of iTunes for Windows but the record companies.

[porovaara]

Are lower quality than the actual song.

There was a thread on Ars where we discussed this and someone pointed out the bitrates ARE different in the previews.

[pyrotoaster]

Originally posted by Ugg
Everybody seems to think that just because Apple posted its job listing for a Windows programmer for iTunes after the debut of the music store that they hadn't yet begun development of a Windows version. I highly doubt that Apple would be so stupid as to wait that long.

The reason the record companies went along with Apple's version is that it was only available to Apple computer users. I'm sure that if we were to see a copy of the contract, it would be clear that it is not Apple holding up the release of iTunes for Windows but the record companies.
I'm not saying Apple waited until the iTMS came out for Mac to start developing it for Windows, but there's no way we're going to see a Windows version this summer (unless Steve's got yet another show stopper "one more thing" planned for the WWDC Keynote).

If Apple thought they could have the Windows version ready in July, they would've said something along the lines of "Windows version available within six months" back in April.

No, it'll probably be Sep/Oct/Nov before we see iTMS hit Windows. Of course, I'm just trying to be realistic. Better would be good.

[SilentPanda]

Originally posted by patmcfar8
"Every album needs to have a UPC Barcode! You have to use their special Music Store Encoder tool for Mac OS X which will be released in 90 days or so."

If I read this right, then Indie lables won't be able to add their music to the iTMS until after they have this software available 90 days from now. Also notice that the software is only available for OS X, which means that the Indie labels will have to buy a Mac if they don't already have one to upload their music. ;-)


According to CDBaby it sounds like they take care of both of these issues (UPC and encoding). If you are a CDBaby member they will sell you a bar code at $20 an album. Very cheap. It also sounds like since you will have to go through them they will be the onces encoding the music, not the artist. I can't totally confirm the encoding part of that statement but that's the impression I was getting.

So if I decided to form my own band based on the fact that I can play my belly as a drum on a day of feasting I could sell my CD on CDbaby (after I became a member) and buy a barcode for $20 and then get my CD on iTunes.

[RalphNumbers]

I have seen Albums on the iTMS that won't sell individual tracks. For instance, 100th Window, by Massive Attack. None of the tracks are available individually, even the ones under 7min.

[Skandranon]

They just yanked the story from CD Baby's webpage! Apparently Apple and its law teams have just brought the wrath of Jobs down on the poor guy that posted this info...

There goes his label's chances of being featured on iTMS. :D

"It's never good to mess with karma!" - S.Jobs

[peterjhill]

Originally posted by TylerL
...interesting.
If labels do the actual encoding, and Apple does the 30 second previews, then Apple would be encoding previews from the compressed version.
...meaning that the previews DO sound worse than the actual songs like was mentioned awhile ago.

Apple does not need to re-encode... They only need to clip the track into a 30 second soundbyte and adjust the volume at the beginning and end.

They are not re-ripping...

[Upright Joe]

Man, I really hope CD Baby gets the iTMS angle working. I'm planning on selling a CD through them this summer. I would be so stoked if it was for sale through iTunes as well.

[pretentious]

Originally posted by Skandranon
They just yanked the story from CD Baby's webpage! Apparently Apple and its law teams have just brought the wrath of Jobs down on the poor guy that posted this info...

There goes his label's chances of being featured on iTMS. :D

"It's never good to mess with karma!" - S.Jobs

Its still there, I imagine its getting hit a little hard by all the Mac websites linking to it, just wait until Slashdot sniffs it then it'll know pain.

Anyone for some easy /. karma would setup a mirror now.

[reedm007]

Can you actually get the information?? The page is still there but the detailed information seems to be all gone...

[cdbaby]

It wasn't wrath or lawyers that asked me to pull it. It was a friend of mine that works there.

I sincerely didn't know yesterday's presentation was supposed to be confidential. In fact I thought it was like an indie-music press conference.

Nobody's mad, though. Honest mistake.

Sorry guys!

--
Derek Sivers, CD Baby
http://www.cdbaby.com

[bankshot]

A couple random thoughts. First, anyone still have the original text of the article in their cache? :) I seem to have come late to the party and now it's been pulled...

Interesting note about the specialized encoder being available in 90 days. Isn't that about when we expect Panther to come out (without being overly hopeful)? Coincidence or no?

Finally I'll just agree that this is excellent news -- the more music they have available the better. Maybe in a year's time they'll have a catalogue to rival Amazon's? One can hope! This must include getting not only as many indie labels on board as possible, but finishing as much of the major labels' catalogues as possible. Most of the stuff on my Amazon wishlist (over 120 CDs) is either obscure but on a major label, or on an indie. I've found very little of it on iTMS yet, and therefore have only bought one track so far. I can't wait til the day I have to hold myself back because so much stuff I really want is just waiting for me to download it!

Oh, and hopefully Favored Nations (http://www.favorednations.com/) was in on this meeting yesterday too. I either own or want 95% of their current catalogue. :)

[Nebrie]

Macsurfer already has a link at the top to another website that copied the text.

[pretentious]

Got it here: http://www.gnutellanews.com/article/6830

[nagromme]

What I really like about the labels doing the encoding, not Apple... is it removes a bottleneck. Apple alone could only handle so much of that in a day. But now, signing up a new label means more encoding being done entirely ON TOP OF what was already going on. That means the rate of addition of tracks can increase greatly. I hope the bigger labels start moving faster though, filling in partial albums, etc.

[pyrotoaster]

"Apple takes the story down." I should've seen that coming. ;)

Anyway, if you didn't get a chance to read the info, but want to, some of the more interesting points are highlighted in a MacUnderground (http://macunderground.blogspot.com/) post from earlier today. Look for the post entitled "Indie records meet Reality Distortion Field..."

CDBaby: The info was great while it was there. Thank you.

[pretentious]

Originally posted by nagromme
What I really like about the labels doing the encoding, not Apple... is it removes a bottleneck. Apple alone could only handle so much of that in a day. But now, signing up a new label means more encoding being done entirely ON TOP OF what was already going on. That means the rate of addition of tracks can increase greatly. I hope the bigger labels start moving faster though, filling in partial albums, etc.

I think Apple had the labels do the rip, so that they would not be liable if the label thinks it was encoded wrong, and it would leave it up to the artist to make the best rip possible into AAC. Apple is still just the delivery not the maker, thats the labels job.

I'm sure that there are some tweaks that you can do to the music before the encoding make it sound better after the encoding, and Apple would/should not be trusted to make those.

[SilentPanda]

I wonder if the reason the iTunes music store has partial albums (for instance the newest Matchbox Twenty album does not have the last track) is because the labels copy protected the CD's and can't figure out how to rip them. :D

(P.S. I was going for humor, not for reality)

[robotrenegade]

The labels that your calling indies are not indies in the true form.

[NavyIntel007]

Do we know exactly what indie labels were present?

[robotrenegade]

Yeah, they said subpop. They are a million dollar company. Haha:D

[Hawthorne]

Originally posted by robotrenegade
The labels that your calling indies are not indies in the true form.

They're smaller than EMI. Look at how Apple is doing this, get the majors on board, then let it filter down. Eventually even Fugazi might join in. Maybe.

[AppleMatt]

Originally posted by SilentPanda
I wonder if the reason the iTunes music store has partial albums (for instance the newest Matchbox Twenty album does not have the last track) is because the labels copy protected the CD's and can't figure out how to rip them. :D

(P.S. I was going for humor, not for reality)

It really, really wouldn't surprise me if this actually happened.

AppleMatt

[Angelus520]

If CD Baby goes on board with iTMS, that will be an awesome development. Derek Sivers (the creator of CD Baby and who posted earlier on this thread) is such a cool, laid-back guy. I met him at the 2NMC music conference in Nashville last fall. What an amazing speaker and gave TONS of great tips for indie musicians. Check out http://www.cdbaby.net for much of this great info.

He actually started CD Baby out of his house/apartment or whatever he had at the time. Said he used to store band's CDs in a closet until someone ordered one and then he shipped it himself. Now of course CD Baby is huge and he's not running it out of his house anymore.

If I remember right, CD Baby keeps $4.00 of the money from each CD a band sells through its site. Not bad and a heck of a lot better than a label deal.

Way to go, guys!

CHAD V

[reedm007]

Originally posted by AppleMatt
It really, really wouldn't surprise me if this actually happened.

AppleMatt

While funny to think about, it's certainly not the case because the encoding isn't occuring from a CD, Apple's going back to the digital masters to encode into AAC.

[backspinner]

Originally posted by reedm007 Apple's going back to the digital masters to encode into AAC. and you believe that? by the way, it's clear now that the labels have to encode by them selves.

[jimthorn]

Originally posted by backspinner
and you believe that? by the way, it's clear now that the labels have to encode by them selves.

I wonder if that's why some iTMS songs sound better than others... some labels do a better job of encoding...?

[Singer]

HI, CDBABY is a great company but...... I would prefer to sell my songs on itunes directly through my own label instead of going through yet another middle man.. uGH! I have tried to read the link everyone keeps pointing to, but for some reason oon my browser it is not coming up as a link. Can someone please post the address of the link?

thanks
Singer

[Ugg]

Originally posted by Singer
HI, CDBABY is a great company but...... I would prefer to sell my songs on itunes directly through my own label instead of going through yet another middle man.. uGH! I have tried to read the link everyone keeps pointing to, but for some reason oon my browser it is not coming up as a link. Can someone please post the address of the link?

thanks
Singer

They pulled it. I think at MacCentral someone posted the entire article in the forums section.

[xDANx]

Originally posted by Hawthorne
They're smaller than EMI. Look at how Apple is doing this, get the majors on board, then let it filter down. Eventually even Fugazi might join in. Maybe.

i sincerely doubt that fugazi will ever have anything to do with this. ever. if someone could confirm that dischord records was at that meeting/workshop then it becomes a slight possibility, but i'd be surprised...which is too bad for anyone who's never heard fugazi (or any of the other bands on dischord's roster).

[celaurie]

BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/2971790.stm) confirms the story...

[Ugg]

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26741&perpage=25&pagenumber=3

I've just posted some info from an article in Der Spiegel about Apple persuing German indie labels.