Safari v80 Leaked? [Archive] - MacRumors Forums

MacRumors

Jun 9, 2003, 12:47 AM

It appears that Safari v80 has been leaked with one site posting a small review (http://funmac.com/showthread.php?postid=13161) of the new build.

Safari v80 is said to incorporate a preference for .Mac bookmark Syncronization as well as "Autotabs" allowing you to open a folder of bookmarks into a set of tabs at once.

Another report indicates that the install process has been modified -- with the upgrade package installing Webkit and the Foundation Frameworks in /System/Library/Frameworks instead of within the actual application. One user speculates that this may make it easier to share these resources amongst other Apps, and also provides a single location for upgrades to provide system-wide updates to the Webkit.

mactastic

Jun 9, 2003, 12:54 AM

Is it faster?

dhaveconfig

Jun 9, 2003, 12:55 AM

ahah! finally, we'll be able to use WebCore in our own apps....

This was pretty much a given to be announced at WWDC... and this just confirms it...

that will swallow up some of the TBA sessions at WWDC...

descFromApesWeR

Jun 9, 2003, 01:00 AM

""Autotabs" allowing you to open a folder of bookmarks into a set of tabs at once"

Can't we already do this (in pre v80) by command-clicking a folder on the Bookmarks bar?

sparkleytone

Jun 9, 2003, 01:01 AM

:o

yeah yeah a glory hog is me. v80 doesnt seem to be ALL that different, altho it does have the .Mac integration and the movement of the Frameworks. Safari.app results in about a 3MB file as opposed to the 10MB it was before.

overall it still seems to have the same rendering problems on the MR forums, and now has introduced new rendering problems on neowin.net forums. the tabs are DEFINITELY quicker at responding even while other tabs are loading. it seems to be more responsive in general. i havent really noticed much else.

edit: an interesting change in how the bookmarks are displayed. if you have multiple tabs, it will only display on the current tab, leaving you the ability to switch between tabs.

QCassidy352

Jun 9, 2003, 01:04 AM

Originally posted by descFromApesWeR
""Autotabs" allowing you to open a folder of bookmarks into a set of tabs at once"

Can't we already do this (in pre v80) by command-clicking a folder on the Bookmarks bar?

I know that I can already do it on the current version.

mac15

Jun 9, 2003, 01:04 AM

I'm in the process of looking round for more new stuff inside the app and I'll be posting it as I see it

sparkleytone

Jun 9, 2003, 01:05 AM

Originally posted by QCassidy352
I know that I can already do it on the current version.

its a little different.

mac15

Jun 9, 2003, 01:14 AM

another auto-tab tidbit

http://funmac.com/showthread.php?postid=13175#post13175

Ja Di ksw

Jun 9, 2003, 01:27 AM

Wasn't the seeding program stopped for awhile because of leaks? I like hearing what's coming up as much as the next person, but the more that things get leaked, the more Apple will get ticked off. if they stop seeding, it will hurt us in the end. These leaks of seeds should really stop.

Nermal

Jun 9, 2003, 01:39 AM

I see that both About Safari and the Internet prefs in System Prefs both list it as version 1.0 - not 1.0 Beta. So the official 1.0 release is close!

Edit: BUG! I clicked the Back button and a new tab opened! I couldn't get it to do it again though.

And is it just me, or are the fonts bigger in this version?

Sayer

Jun 9, 2003, 01:50 AM

Moving the frameworks to the System folder would not result in any speed up btw.

It will mean a smaller d/l in the future to update app-centric issues, but if Apple updates WebCore then you will still need to download that big chunk.

And moving them out of the app now means they are fleshed out enough to be used by third party apps like OmniWeb so that their HTML rendering doesn't suck any more and you get more advanced rendering.

I'd REALLY like to see a smart downloader that will strip out language files I don't want. QuickTime promised this, but Apple abandoned Installer VISE for their crap UNIX-based installer (that wiped out how many people's entire drives with an iTunes update?).

And I thought Cocoa was supposed to turn out much smaller apps as they reused a bunch of code in the system frameworks themselves? All Safari does is call on WebCore to do the bulk of the work and handles UI, networking and what, bookmarks itself.

iTunes is already using the WebCore components, apparently, for the Music Store which is all WebObjects-based. That must really grind Cocoa-fans out there. Heh heh.

MovieGuy

Jun 9, 2003, 01:51 AM

Sounds liek a neat feature but I dunno what I would really use it for. I can see if it helps apple to integrate programs to move the frameworks though. Hope good things come out of this.

Mr.Hey

Jun 9, 2003, 02:09 AM

I download it but its a pkg can anyone else confirm this. I don't want to install the hack version.

Nermal

Jun 9, 2003, 02:15 AM

Originally posted by Mr.Hey
I download it but its a pkg can anyone else confirm this. I don't want to install the hack version.

Mine was a pkg too, it doesn't seem to have done any damage, but I thought it was strange. It displays the Apple licence when you install it, but I guess that's quite easy to copy if you wanted to. I assume it's a pkg because it needs to put the WebCore in the right place.

Mr.Hey

Jun 9, 2003, 02:21 AM

Thanks for the reply... thought the same about the pkg but your right about the webcore thing. I check all the features and it seems ok ..oh and the speed is unbelievable. I loaded MSN site (just for kicks) in two seconds and thats not loading from the cache....tee hee. I'm on cloud 9. ONe of the major complaints a PC user friend of mine was the slow loading speeds of Apples browsers. I can't wait to show him v80. :D

macdong

Jun 9, 2003, 02:24 AM

i think i'll be better off to wait for it to be officially released.

Mr.Hey

Jun 9, 2003, 02:34 AM

How the heck am I or anyone else going to upgrade now that apple is using pkg. I know people who have installed leaked version of iApps who could not upgrade to the offical release. I know there is a unix app that will uninstall pkg. I only hope it works on this.

p.s. Its always a good idea to empty the cache before or after you upgrade.

NicoMan

Jun 9, 2003, 02:40 AM

I Just hope that they release a public version soon that correct the stability problems.

NicoMan

mac15

Jun 9, 2003, 03:02 AM

yeah its supposed to be a package since it installes the webcore/javascriptcore framework in your system folder

seven5

Jun 9, 2003, 03:06 AM

Also added is a new "missing image" icon.

Before, Safari showed nothing for missing images, which was kind of a pain and kind of a blessing at the same time.

Now, while using pith helmet, i have little question marks everywhere. Maybe PithHelmet can replace everything with a transparent 1px gif.

http://www.jonsthoughtsoneverything.com/testing/safari.jpg

T'hain Esh Kelch

Jun 9, 2003, 05:27 AM

Seven5: Since Im on my GF's PC, and dont have the opportunity to go v80 before tonight, could you please upload a picture with open tabs and the browser being aquafied? ThxX. I hate brushed metal! ;)

andyduncan

Jun 9, 2003, 06:00 AM

Originally posted by Sayer
iTunes is already using the WebCore components, apparently, for the Music Store which is all WebObjects-based.

Actually it's probably not using webcore. Since the poster above stated that v80 is the first version to move webcore into the frameworks folder making it available to other apps, then iTunes would have to have a version of webcore in it's package in order to work on any machine that didn't have safari installed.
Opening the package shows no signs of webcore.
In addition, the fact that IMS uses webobjects doesn't necessarily mean that iTunes is using HTML for it's display, though it might be. Webobjects can have a number of interfaces wrapped on top of it.

Bundled

Jun 9, 2003, 06:26 AM

I quickly downloaded Safari v80 from somewhere, but I would not advice others to do so. First of all, it is nice but some preferences don't work anymore (security for example) and after I tried to remove the package with OSXPM (the tool mentioned above) I couldn't use the public beta from Apple anymore. And above all after deleting v80 to go back to the public beta, I couldn't install v80 again, it tells me it is impossible to install it on that hard disk. I even moved the WebKit.framework away from the Frameworks folder. I deleted anything on my hard disk with Safari in it... except the two installation packages, the one from Apple and that nasty v80... I probably have to wait until Safari leaves beta status or Apple releases Panther... wooah, 4 months...

Anyone who can solve this problem?
I mean Chimera/Camino is cool, but I liked Safari a lot more.

richie

Jun 9, 2003, 06:37 AM

As far as I can tell (I'm not actually going to install v80 myself), it looks like the updater updates Foundation.framework, too (to 6.2.1 from 6.2), which could be why the old version won't install anymore. Unfortunately, I don't know a good way to downgrade that...

Bundled

Jun 9, 2003, 06:45 AM

That is a another point to start from. But the problem isn't that the old version doesn't install - in fact it does, but Safari v74 won't open windows anymore - it is that now I can't install the new v80 or really run v74...

I'll look around some more...

gandalf55

Jun 9, 2003, 06:53 AM

i wish people would honor ndas and not leak this stuff. for all that hard work, apple deserves some respect by the community.

andyduncan

Jun 9, 2003, 06:56 AM

edit: I didn't read the original post carefully, hopefully I deleted my reply before anyone saw.

Carry on.

NicoMan

Jun 9, 2003, 07:08 AM

Originally posted by richie
As far as I can tell (I'm not actually going to install v80 myself), it looks like the updater updates Foundation.framework, too (to 6.2.1 from 6.2), which could be why the old version won't install anymore. Unfortunately, I don't know a good way to downgrade that...
How about getting 6.2 from someone else??
I'm sure one of us can help you with that.
NicoMan

Nermal

Jun 9, 2003, 07:13 AM

Originally posted by Bundled
I quickly downloaded Safari v80 from somewhere, but I would not advice others to do so. First of all, it is nice but some preferences don't work anymore (security for example) and after I tried to remove the package with OSXPM (the tool mentioned above) I couldn't use the public beta from Apple anymore. And above all after deleting v80 to go back to the public beta, I couldn't install v80 again, it tells me it is impossible to install it on that hard disk. I even moved the WebKit.framework away from the Frameworks folder. I deleted anything on my hard disk with Safari in it... except the two installation packages, the one from Apple and that nasty v80... I probably have to wait until Safari leaves beta status or Apple releases Panther... wooah, 4 months...

Anyone who can solve this problem?
I mean Chimera/Camino is cool, but I liked Safari a lot more.

I've got the same problem. Haven't managed to fix it yet, but I started a new thread under questions/tips called "I killed Safari", so hopefully a solution will show up in there.

TylerL

Jun 9, 2003, 07:27 AM

Does anybody else find anything wrong (or at least funny) with Apple bundling and deeply embedding their browser into the operating system?

visor

Jun 9, 2003, 07:40 AM

Originally posted by Macrumors

Another report indicates that the install process has been modified -- with the upgrade package installing Webkit and the Foundation Frameworks in /System/Library/Frameworks instead of within the actual application.

Hm - that means Apple does not consider Safari beta anymore.
Sharing the libs means - open for anybody, not likely to be changed in an incompatible way anymore. Apple only does that with finalized Software.

visor

Jun 9, 2003, 07:45 AM

Originally posted by TylerL
Does anybody else find anything wrong (or at least funny) with Apple bundling and deeply embedding their browser into the operating system?

Well, there's certainly nothing wrong or funny with sharing libs.
It is, in fact a widley used technique on Unix and linux distributions for - well, mostly for as long as these products exist.

Vonnie

Jun 9, 2003, 07:48 AM

Some small extras:
If you do a option-click on an autotab, you see what's inside it.

If you load a tab in the background, and it does a timeout, it will show a warning symbol on the tab. Click on the tab, and you get the actual error.

In v74 the error immediatly appeared, interrupting you while reading another site.

kristianm

Jun 9, 2003, 08:01 AM

Originally posted by TylerL
Does anybody else find anything wrong (or at least funny) with Apple bundling and deeply embedding their browser into the operating system?

They have not integrated the OS yet, all they have (or are going to) do is to make the library available to other developers.

But I suspect we will se more of the OS use the webcore with time. But then Apple is hardly a monopoly.

andyduncan

Jun 9, 2003, 08:05 AM

Originally posted by TylerL
Does anybody else find anything wrong (or at least funny) with Apple bundling and deeply embedding their browser into the operating system?

heh. yeah, sounds pretty funny at first.

Really though, its the opposite of what microsoft was doing. This type of "embedding" is tantamount to begging someone to compete with your browser. Apple's work on KHTML, the promised cocoa wrappers for it, and them (hopefully) making it a standard part of the install (so developers can count on it being there) are definitely A Good Thing.

And just a few days ago microsoft says something silly about IE 6 being the pinnacle of browsers and that there's not much more innovation to be done. riiiiight. have fun with that.

andyduncan

Jun 9, 2003, 08:16 AM

Originally posted by kristianm
But I suspect we will se more of the OS use the webcore with time. But then Apple is hardly a monopoly.

Well sure, and that would be great. Cocoa already offers decent HTML parsing and display. Stuff like mail, project builder, help viewer etc, all might benefit from having a better underlying engine.

The most important thing to remember here is that developers are getting access to really nice display and scripting engines, for free. Even if Apple decides to stop supporting it (unlikely), the libraries themselves are open-source, so they are not going away.

bretm

Jun 9, 2003, 08:21 AM

That may be true, but ironically, isn't that in complete contradiction with the purpose of a mac rumors website?

Should we quite posting hardware leaks and rumors when apple decides they are going to discontinue beta testing any hardware due to all the leaks?

Far fetched I know, but it's the point I'm trying to get across.

With WWDC so close, I suppose people are figuring this is the last or next to last beta of safari anyway.

Originally posted by Ja Di ksw
Wasn't the seeding program stopped for awhile because of leaks? I like hearing what's coming up as much as the next person, but the more that things get leaked, the more Apple will get ticked off. if they stop seeding, it will hurt us in the end. These leaks of seeds should really stop.

kristianm

Jun 9, 2003, 08:25 AM

Originally posted by andyduncan

Really though, its the opposite of what microsoft was doing. This type of "embedding" is tantamount to begging someone to compete with your browser. Apple's work on KHTML, the promised cocoa wrappers for it, and them (hopefully) making it a standard part of the install (so developers can count on it being there) are definitely A Good Thing.

Microsoft is allowing you to extend IE as well. The only differences are:
- Apple is not a monopoly
- It is not unnatural to use other browsers on OS X

bretm

Jun 9, 2003, 08:28 AM

You don't think the people leaking all the hardware tidbits, screenshots and images have NDAs? They're probably employees somewhere in the chain. Basically, for any rumor to get out, somewhere, somebody broke an NDA.

Originally posted by gandalf55
i wish people would honor ndas and not leak this stuff. for all that hard work, apple deserves some respect by the community.

liudger

Jun 9, 2003, 08:31 AM

Originally posted by Vonnie
Some small extras:
If you do a option-click on an autotab, you see what's inside it.

If you load a tab in the background, and it does a timeout, it will show a warning symbol on the tab. Click on the tab, and you get the actual error.

In v74 the error immediatly appeared, interrupting you while reading another site.

you beat me i just wanted to post the same screenshot

jettredmont

Jun 9, 2003, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by TylerL
Does anybody else find anything wrong (or at least funny) with Apple bundling and deeply embedding their browser into the operating system?

Moving the frameworks to their global location is not "deeply embedd[ed]". It is proper use of shared libraries.

Do I find anything "wrong" with Apple providing a web browser service? No. Why? Because Apple must do so to compete with the illegal activities of Microsoft in this regard.

Do I feel funny about Apple most likely using the Safari (WebCore) libraries throughout their system and applications in the near future? Yes, I do. That "locks in" the WebCore interpretation of HTML just like MS's activities locked in IE's. The ideal, still, would be for companies to be able to compete to be the user's web framework provider. However, this ideal is difficult to engineer, whether you are the MS behemoth or the more slender but resource-limited Apple. And, I give you two side notes:

1) Apple is not doing so maliciously to "choke off the blood supply" of for instance Camino and Mozilla. One may say actions matter more than motives, but present motives tend to predict future actions. And there, we are less likely to see Apple restricting user choice when their stated and legitimate goal is to enhance choice for their users.

2) Apple is not a monopoly and therefore does not have to exist in the "careful" environment determined monopolists do. It is far easier for a ticked-off Apple user to switch to Windows than vice-versa, and Apple knows this. This keeps Apple from entertaining the more devious thoughts all corporations harbor :)

So, to sum up:

Apple needs Safari to compete, as whatever the overall problems with MS entrenching IE, there are benefits there as well that we are missing out on.

AND, Apple is much less likely to abuse this single-provider situation than MS.

pyrotoaster

Jun 9, 2003, 10:12 AM

Everything seems nice and dandy in v80, but my default font changed, it's much bigger for no reason at all! Otherwise, it seems stable.

AppleMatt

Jun 9, 2003, 10:12 AM

I have v80...but I'm having a crisis of conscience.

After typing many a post saying that installing leaked versions harms us in the long run (Apple kill seed program, development slows), it seems everyone now has it installed, and the new features look yummy.

Also surely the person who leaked has been identified due to the unique ID they put in the last build at least, or is that gone now?

:( should I install or shouldn't I?

AppleMatt

sparkleytone

Jun 9, 2003, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by gandalf55
i wish people would honor ndas and not leak this stuff. for all that hard work, apple deserves some respect by the community.

i wish apple would honor their customers and open up their beta programs a good bit. then maybe things like the iSync fiasco wouldnt happen. simple and easy to fix bugs are slipping through the cracks because there is such a limited amount of people testing.

MetallicPenguin

Jun 9, 2003, 10:15 AM

I usually don't use these leaked versions of Safari and I'm not this time. Mostly because it installs through a package like others have said, and it's an upgrade, usually it's just a download where you can delete it after using it and testing it out. And that's what I usually do, without messing with my public version.

But these new features sound pretty sweet, but I'm not touching it. Can't wait for it to go GM!:D

pyrotoaster

Jun 9, 2003, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by AppleMatt
I have v80...but I'm having a crisis of conscience.

After typing many a post saying that installing leaked versions harms us in the long run (Apple kill seed program, development slows), it seems everyone now has it installed, and the new features look yummy.

Also surely the person who leaked has been identified due to the unique ID they put in the last build at least, or is that gone now?

:( should I install or shouldn't I?

AppleMatt
Go ahead and install it. Enjoy the new features in the software. The only person who should be having a crisis of conscience is the guy (or gal) who leaked v80 to begin with.

Delta-9

Jun 9, 2003, 10:16 AM

Originally posted by pyrotoaster
Everything seems nice and dandy in v80, but my default font changed, it's much bigger for no reason at all! Otherwise, it seems stable.

I noticed the exact same thing. Do you know what the default font used to be? I got used to that one and this larger one is annoying at the moment.

pyrotoaster

Jun 9, 2003, 10:20 AM

I was able to basically fix the font problem by just changing it from 16-point to 14-point. Everything looks fine now.

MetallicPenguin

Jun 9, 2003, 10:23 AM

Can someone tell me if you can command click on the back button or the home button to make a tab with either the page before the one you are on or your home page?

AppleMatt

Jun 9, 2003, 10:25 AM

Oh oh a chance to redeem myself before I install (thanks pyrotoaster, I'm going to :P)

The standard font and sizes for v74 are:

Standard Font: Lucida Grande 14
Fixed-width Font: Courier 14

eek here goes.

AppleMatt

Delta-9

Jun 9, 2003, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by MetallicPenguin
Can someone tell me if you can command click on the back button or the home button to make a tab with either the page before the one you are on or your home page?

You can ctrl-click on the forward/back buttons and get a list of the pages. I don't know if thats new or not. I never tried ctrl-click on that button before.

pyrotoaster

Jun 9, 2003, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by pyrotoaster
I was able to basically fix the font problem by just changing it from 16-point to 14-point. Everything looks fine now.
I spoke too soon. Some sites still have the wrong font. Try using "Lucida Grande."

Edit: Didn't see your post, thanks AppleMatt.

MetallicPenguin

Jun 9, 2003, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by Delta-9
You can ctrl-click on the forward/back buttons and get a list of the pages. I don't know if thats new or not. I never tried ctrl-click on that button before.

Oh cool I never noticed that, but did you try command clicking (apple button) on the home or back/forward?

Delta-9

Jun 9, 2003, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by MetallicPenguin
Oh cool I never noticed that, but did you try command clicking (apple button) on the home or back/forward?

Yes. I tried and it didn't do anything other than the normal click.

Delta-9

Jun 9, 2003, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by AppleMatt

The standard font and sizes for v74 are:

Standard Font: Lucida Grande 14
Fixed-width Font: Courier 14

That made the difference. v80 used "Times 16pt" as the standard font.

MetallicPenguin

Jun 9, 2003, 10:33 AM

Oh okay, dangit.

bretm

Jun 9, 2003, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by Delta-9
That made the difference. v80 used "Times 16pt" as the standard font.

As it should. That shoudl be the default in all browsers as it pretty much has been forever.

Maybe Apple finally realized they're mucking up a lot of sites that were designed with defaults in mind.

I realize times isn't the best screen font in the world, but at least it's a serif font. When you design a site to use the default font for the text, then you use san-serif fonts for titles and other elements, Safari became a pain because it now had a san-serif font used for text default, and then whatever san-serif fonts you prescribed in the design for the other fonts. Bad clash in typography right there.

Apple probably wised up. If pages don't appear the same as in Netscape and IE, people will have issues.

The Tuck

Jun 9, 2003, 10:57 AM

When iSync 1.1 came out, there was this picture on the iSync page. Apple quickly removed it, but this might be a rumored preference thing for Safari:

http://a772.g.akamai.net/7/772/51/0afe123bee1d50/www.apple.com/isync/images/indexbookmarks_060203.gif

Anybody else seen this?

-The Tuck

bretm

Jun 9, 2003, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by Delta-9
You can ctrl-click on the forward/back buttons and get a list of the pages. I don't know if thats new or not. I never tried ctrl-click on that button before.

Just click and hold for a brief second. That's been there for as long as I can remember. Works pretty much the same as all web browsers.

gopher

Jun 9, 2003, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by Bundled
I quickly downloaded Safari v80 from somewhere, but I would not advice others to do so. First of all, it is nice but some preferences don't work anymore (security for example) and after I tried to remove the package with OSXPM (the tool mentioned above) I couldn't use the public beta from Apple anymore. And above all after deleting v80 to go back to the public beta, I couldn't install v80 again, it tells me it is impossible to install it on that hard disk. I even moved the WebKit.framework away from the Frameworks folder. I deleted anything on my hard disk with Safari in it... except the two installation packages, the one from Apple and that nasty v80... I probably have to wait until Safari leaves beta status or Apple releases Panther... wooah, 4 months...

Anyone who can solve this problem?
I mean Chimera/Camino is cool, but I liked Safari a lot more.
Did you make a backup of the entire hard disk before installing the pirated version? It is always smart to backup before installing new software in case you run into trouble like this.
You might just have to remove the preferences in Home -> Library -> Preferences for Safari but preserve the bookmarks file. Next time, only download official releases of betas etc...you run the risk of losing everything to untested versions more than those that have been tested.

Jeff Harrell

Jun 9, 2003, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by TylerL
Does anybody else find anything wrong (or at least funny) with Apple bundling and deeply embedding their browser into the operating system? No. In truth, there's not much wrong or funny with Microsoft's bundling of HTML rendering services with the OS, either. The difference is that Safari still exists as an application on OS X. The code to draw the windows, to handle tabs, to manage bookmarks, all of that is encapsulated as an application. On Windows, that doesn't really exist as an application in the same sense. It's an OS component, analogous to some of the stuff in /System/Library/CoreServices on your Mac. You can't really remove IE from Windows, although you can remove references to it.

What Apple is doing is taking the HTML rendering part of the browser and making it available as a feature of the operating system. This is sensible. After all, styled text rendering code is available as part of the operating system. You don't have to write your own styled text renderer every time you want to use styled text in an application. HTML is basically the same thing.

So, in other words, no. Nothing wrong or funny. Just (no offense, seriously) an incomplete understanding on your part.

Mineral

Jun 9, 2003, 01:22 PM

Did they fix problems with inline frames yet?

No?

Okay:mad: :rolleyes:

Jeff Harrell

Jun 9, 2003, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by bretm
As it should. That shoudl be the default in all browsers as it pretty much has been forever.Erm. If we really want to talk about defaults, we have to mention the fact that the W3C standard explicitly avoids mention of any default typeface. Unless otherwise specified by the browser, the typeface is the sole domain of the client.

Anybody who assumes 16 point Times is going to be the user's font of choice is making a bad decision. Any page that does not render correctly in a font other than 16 point Times is a poorly designed page.

My personal default font of choice is 14 point Georgia. There's no reason for a page designer to know this, or to care.

Jeff Harrell

Jun 9, 2003, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by pyrotoaster
Go ahead and install it. Enjoy the new features in the software. The only person who should be having a crisis of conscience is the guy (or gal) who leaked v80 to begin with. Hmm. I don't buy it. If you believe that leaking the software was wrong (which is not a given, but it happens to be my opinion), then you have to believe that using the software is also wrong. It's the fruit-of-the-poisoned-tree idea. Also summed up by the phrase "ill-gotten gains."

merges

Jun 9, 2003, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by sparkleytone
i wish apple would honor their customers and open up their beta programs a good bit. then maybe things like the iSync fiasco wouldnt happen. simple and easy to fix bugs are slipping through the cracks because there is such a limited amount of people testing.

It's not clear that if Apple were to "open up their beta programs a good bit" that it would further "honour" its customers. For instance, many customers might be ofended that Apple would offer a product ridden with annoying deficiencies. By improving the product to a certain acceptable level internally, Apple can avoid customer dissatisfaction to some extent. It is conceivable that customers would create an additional burden on Apple's technical support and engineering teams...it's certainly not helpful to receive two thousand bug reports on a well-known issue, and to have to invest time in sorting through all of those reports. And, in what format should those public bug reports be made?

Quality testing is not a function of how many people are doing the testing. It is about having the right number of people doing efficient testing and producing useful results (useful to the engineers, in this case). Apple certainly wouldn't need 2,000 people to tell them that a button doesn't work right...

More to the point, *you* are illegally acquiring and using software that is not at all public. It is the private, protected property of Apple Computer, Inc., and you are not helping the company nor your cause by stealing that software, which you do not have a right to do, and further, discussing details of it and publishing images of it as well, which you also do not have a right to do. It's a good thing you don't work for Apple, and if your posts in this thread (which belie little understanding of Apple, software testing, and respect for protected intellectual property) are any indication, that you probably never will.

Jeff Harrell

Jun 9, 2003, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by Sayer
I'd REALLY like to see a smart downloader that will strip out language files I don't want. QuickTime promised this, but Apple abandoned Installer VISE for their crap UNIX-based installer (that wiped out how many people's entire drives with an iTunes update?).Okay, look. What happened with the iTunes installer was the result of a poorly written script. It doesn't matter if that script was executed by Apple's installer (good) or a piece of poorly ported junk like Installer Vise. It would have had exactly the same effect.

It was bad that Apple let a script with such a simple mistake in it get out. But the problem does not lie with the installer.

In point of fact, neither Apple's installer nor Vise (shudder) is particularly good at managing software. Installing software is easy; managing it is hard.

The topic is going to appear to go bye-bye for a second, but I'll bring it back. Be patient.

The best software management system I ever used was an SGI tool called "inst." Inst had a graphical interface called Software Manager. Inst maintained a database of installed software, and allowed a privileged user to manipulate that database.

The first thing a software vendor did when making software for IRIX was create an inst package. The inst package included some basic metadata, like the name and version number of the package. It also included information about relationships to other packages: prerequisites, incompatabilites, and so on.

To install a package, you just ran it through inst or through Software Manager. It allowed you to select sub-packages for installation, if you wanted to install X but not Y. Or, more often, it just let you hit the big green button and do a default installation.

But the cooler thing was management. At any time, you could fire up Software Manager (or inst) and see what was installed on your computer at the product, subsystem, or even file level. There were shell tools that let you figure out interesting things, like, "What software product does the file /usr/lib64/libfoo.so belong to?"

You could remove software. Since the inst database knew all about dependencies, it wouldn't let you remove X without also removing all the things that depended on X.

The flexibility and power of inst can't be overestimated. I was able, using inst, to get a bare-bones IRIX operating system installation down under 200 megabytes... and that's for a 64-processor, 64-bit supercomputer! I pulled out stuff like HTML rendering components and OpenGL and cryptographic libraries that this particular single-purpose system simply didn't need, and got it down to the absolute minimum.

I wish OS X had a system like that. Maybe I'll get to work writing one, just as an exercise, and see if Apple's interested in taking the ball and running with it.

The point, of course, is that a system like that would make installing Safari a piece of cake. When you ran the installer you'd see two products listed: Safari and WebKit. The Safari product would install the Safari application in /Applications. The WebKit product would install WebKit in /Library/Frameworks or whatever. Because the system enforces certain rules, WebKit would not be able to overwrite Foundation. Instead, the package would include an updated Foundation. If, after installing the new software, you decided you wanted to revert, you could just open up Software Manager and, assuming you chose to save old versions, click a button to remove the Safari package (including WebKit and Foundation) and revert to the old versions.

*sigh* Those were the good old days.

pyrotoaster

Jun 9, 2003, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
Hmm. I don't buy it. If you believe that leaking the software was wrong (which is not a given, but it happens to be my opinion), then you have to believe that using the software is also wrong. It's the fruit-of-the-poisoned-tree idea. Also summed up by the phrase "ill-gotten gains."
Your point is completely valid, as this is really just a matter of opinion. My feeling is that it was stupid for whomever leaked this build to do so, and they probably shouldn't have. I'm not that person though, so I have no problem with getting a little sneak preview at what Apple has in store.

But, like I said, it's a matter of opinion.

pyrotoaster

Jun 9, 2003, 02:14 PM

This is what it looks like now if a background tab times out while loading:

Scribble

Jun 9, 2003, 02:20 PM

Anyone care to offer some assistence? Thanks.

merges

Jun 9, 2003, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by Scribble
Anyone care to offer some assistence? Thanks.

You people don't get it, do you?

Scribble

Jun 9, 2003, 02:31 PM

Sorry I offended the "Safari Police" on this BBS. Maybe "you don't get" wanting to check out new software, and being as though it's free, it's not as if peolpe are looting.
But maintain your so-called higher moral standing. A simple "No, no help here" would suffice.
Sheesh, it's that type of cavalier attitude that gives Apple it's deserved "elitist" tag. Please, step off the high horse.
So whatever. Keep your Safari beta to yourself.

Sherman

Jun 9, 2003, 02:32 PM

I've been using autotabs for some time now. If you enable debug mode in the current released version it'll add an option under each folder named "Open in Tabs" and it does just that, it opens every single bookmark in that folder in a tab.

andyduncan

Jun 9, 2003, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by kristianm
Microsoft is allowing you to extend IE as well. The only differences are:
- Apple is not a monopoly
- It is not unnatural to use other browsers on OS X

Oh? I didn't know that, but its still not the same. I'm obviously not familiar with the program you are talking about but from reading the other posts it would appear that Microsoft is providing a set of APIs to do html rendering, and that rendering is based on IE. That's actually pretty nice, it will make a lot of developer's lives easier.

The difference is that Microsoft owns that underlying code, whereas Apple doesn't own KHTML any more than you or I do. If Apple decides they want to get rid of competitors to safari, they can't take their ball and go home. The improvements that they've made to the code will stay.

With regards to someone's post that if everyone uses the webcore framework it will force web developers to write to the subset of the standard that is supported by the KHTML engine, that's probably true. But when that code belongs to everyone, its sort of a mute point. If there's some portion of the engine that doesn't meet some WC3 standard, anyone with the desire and ability can fix it. And nothing is stopping you from using the mozilla engine if you prefer.

It's all about ownership. And Apple putting work into something that the community owns is a good thing for the community.

Mr.Hey

Jun 9, 2003, 02:37 PM

I don't know if anyone noticed this but Check Spelling As You Type.....remains active....w00t!

Eslyjah

Jun 9, 2003, 02:40 PM

Just do a google search for "safari v80". Be careful not to wreck your OS. I'm not going to replace core system libraries with unsupported ones to get a two-week or so headstart on the next version of safari.

pyrotoaster

Jun 9, 2003, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by merges
You people don't get it, do you?
I don't know if I exactly get you here. As point, I won't be giving out copies of v80, but if someone asks I'll just say "Sorry, I can't help you."

There's no reason to act all high and mighty here. It's not like I hacked a secure server and stole my copy of v80. I just happened upon it during an IRC. I think people who have installed it (myself included) are just taking a calculated risk. Whether you accept it or not is your own business.

merges

Jun 9, 2003, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by Scribble
Sorry I offended the "Safari Police" on this BBS. Maybe "you don't get" wanting to check out new software, and being as though it's free, it's not as if peolpe are looting.
But maintain your so-called higher moral standing. A simple "No, no help here" would suffice.
Sheesh, it's that type of cavalier attitude that gives Apple it's deserved "elitist" tag. Please, step off the high horse.
So whatever. Keep your Safari beta to yourself.

1) The "new software" you are referring to is not free. It is not even public. If you acquire it by any means other than it being explicitly offered to you by its owner (with an appropriate licensing agreement attached), you are STEALING. In other words, looting.

2) It's precisely this "cavalier" attitude that makes Apple a responsible, dedicated, respectful company, and its customers too.

3) The only Safari beta I have is the public beta that Apple has officially released, along with a specific non-exclusive license to use it.

This boils down to a simple problem. If you want a better Safari, faster, then stop trying to find, traffic, and discuss unreleased, stolen versions of the software. It slows Apple down.

pyrotoaster

Jun 9, 2003, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by merges
1) The "new software" you are referring to is not free. It is not even public. If you acquire it by any means other than it being explicitly offered to you by its owner (with an appropriate licensing agreement attached), you are STEALING. In other words, looting.

2) It's precisely this "cavalier" attitude that makes Apple a responsible, dedicated, respectful company, and its customers too.

3) The only Safari beta I have is the public beta that Apple has officially released, along with a specific non-exclusive license to use it.

This boils down to a simple problem. If you want a better Safari, faster, then stop trying to find, traffic, and discuss unreleased, stolen versions of the software. It slows Apple down.
We're all entitled to our own opinions, but we're not entitled to force those opinions on others. I can understand if you don't want to download and install v80 yourself. Don't tell other people what to do, though.

merges

Jun 9, 2003, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by pyrotoaster
I don't know if I exactly get you here. As point, I won't be giving out copies of v80, but if someone asks I'll just say "Sorry, I can't help you."

There's no reason to act all high and mighty here. It's not like I hacked a secure server and stole my copy of v80. I just happened upon it during an IRC. I think people who have installed it (myself included) are just taking a calculated risk. Whether you accept it or not is your own business.

Perhaps you don't understand what is meant by "stealing" here. It is not a specific act, such as hacking into a secure server to obtain the property, that defines the crime. By the same token, I do not have to break into Sony Music's warehouse and grab a few CDs to be rightfully accused of stealing music. "Happening upon" the same songs on IRC, on Gnutella, or even in a friend's disc collection are no different if I'm going to acquire the music without paying for it (in other words, without the right to do so).

You don't have the right to own or use the version of Safari that you reference in your post. If you want clarification, why don't you call Apple and see if they're willing to support you or provide you a fresh copy for free?

merges

Jun 9, 2003, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by pyrotoaster
We're all entitled to our own opinions, but we're not entitled to force those opinions on others. I can understand if you don't want to download and install v80 yourself. Don't tell other people what to do, though.

I am simply informing (apparently) uneducated folks about what they are legally entitled to. I am also clarifying important details for these same people.

In addition, I am stating my opinions, which are clearly, as evidenced by the company's own policies (which are determined by intelligent, experienced stakeholders), in Apple's best interests. And, if I'm not mistaken, it's in *your* interest as an Apple product owner and user, to ensure that your products remain valuable and useful to you. If Apple is inhibited by unreasonable contravention of their own policies, it will be more difficult for the company to run efficiently.

pyrotoaster

Jun 9, 2003, 03:18 PM

Freg3000

Jun 9, 2003, 03:28 PM

I downloaded it and it works pretty well. The news feature of opening in tab with just a click is cool, but I wish I could still right click and get all of the sites within the folder, just for the few times I only want to open one of the websites.

Other than that, it looks good.

pyrotoaster

Jun 9, 2003, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by Freg3000
I downloaded it and it works pretty well. The news feature of opening in tab with just a click is cool, but I wish I could still right click and get all of the sites within the folder, just for the few times I only want to open one of the websites.

Other than that, it looks good.
You can open the grouped links up as a regular folder with a simple command-click or option-click.

celaurie

Jun 9, 2003, 03:52 PM

Rumour has it that you can get a copy via Acquisition (http://xlife.org/)...

This version seems a wee bit clunky. Maybe that's just me.

wtmcgee

Jun 9, 2003, 04:58 PM

i personally have no idea what to tell you. this is what happens when you install beta software.

perhaps removing the webcore directory, safari, safari.plist (essentially removing any trace of safari from your system, then rebooting?

that may fix the problem, but i'm not sure i'd be forcibly removing things from my system folder if i didn't know EXACTLY what it did.

Originally posted by Bundled
I quickly downloaded Safari v80 from somewhere, but I would not advice others to do so. First of all, it is nice but some preferences don't work anymore (security for example) and after I tried to remove the package with OSXPM (the tool mentioned above) I couldn't use the public beta from Apple anymore. And above all after deleting v80 to go back to the public beta, I couldn't install v80 again, it tells me it is impossible to install it on that hard disk. I even moved the WebKit.framework away from the Frameworks folder. I deleted anything on my hard disk with Safari in it... except the two installation packages, the one from Apple and that nasty v80... I probably have to wait until Safari leaves beta status or Apple releases Panther... wooah, 4 months...

Anyone who can solve this problem?
I mean Chimera/Camino is cool, but I liked Safari a lot more.

Dale Sorel

Jun 9, 2003, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by merges
I am simply informing (apparently) uneducated folks about what they are legally entitled to. I am also clarifying important details for these same people.

In addition, I am stating my opinions, which are clearly, as evidenced by the company's own policies (which are determined by intelligent, experienced stakeholders), in Apple's best interests. And, if I'm not mistaken, it's in *your* interest as an Apple product owner and user, to ensure that your products remain valuable and useful to you. If Apple is inhibited by unreasonable contravention of their own policies, it will be more difficult for the company to run efficiently.

Give it a rest, woodja :rolleyes:

AppleMatt

Jun 9, 2003, 07:15 PM

I'd just like to apologise, as far as I can tell it was my post about installing Safari v80 or not that started this row.

So therefore I would like it to be this post that ends it, cmon guys, we're never going to all agree on this, lets move on, there are quite a few constructive and useful posts inbetween the rows.

AppleMatt

sandsl

Jun 9, 2003, 07:27 PM

Why don't the safari police keep to themselves...everyone makes their own decision.

What some of you guys are clearly forgetting is reading rumor sites is often more damaging to apple than using an unreleased beta of safari. Alot of published material on this site and others (eg. thinksecret) are trade secrets, owned by Apple.

Anyone who is willing to read illegally leaked documents & information about Apples internal unreleased, unpublicised software (hardware etc..) might as well be using Apple's unreleased software as well. Both as harmful as the other.

Just to finish this off...I have installed Safari v80 and I've taken the risk of complete data distruction. No one on this board has the right to tell me what to do.

Anyone who says its impossible to remove Safari v80 and default to v74 is ignorant :rolleyes:

MetallicPenguin

Jun 9, 2003, 07:32 PM

Originally posted by The Tuck
When iSync 1.1 came out, there was this picture on the iSync page. Apple quickly removed it, but this might be a rumored preference thing for Safari:

http://a772.g.akamai.net/7/772/51/0afe123bee1d50/www.apple.com/isync/images/indexbookmarks_060203.gif

Anybody else seen this?

-The Tuck

yeah I saw that, very interesting, it shows Mail, I sent an idea to Apple about maybe some sort of thing like where you can check your mail by going in a tab and it just shows it (it would look similar to the bookmarks tab/screen). I don't know what that is, but it looks cool.

cablejump

Jun 9, 2003, 10:25 PM

all i want from the new version of safari is the ability to choose where you can save things differently each time

Jeff Harrell

Jun 9, 2003, 10:51 PM

Originally posted by cablejump
all i want from the new version of safari is the ability to choose where you can save things differently each time Serious question: what's wrong with saving them to the desktop or a given folder, and then moving them later? I don't like being asked every time where I want something saved, and I can't think of a good way to let the browser know that I want to be asked sometimes but not other times.

AmbitiousLemon

Jun 9, 2003, 11:00 PM

we have been getting a lot of hits from apple domains, so i took a look at what os and browsers they were using.

most were jag and safari v74.

but there was a good number of safari v80 and even some safari version 83u (and of course a good number of camino builds as well; woohoo!)

just thought it was interesting (btw no non-mac oses)

sparkleytone

Jun 9, 2003, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by cablejump
all i want from the new version of safari is the ability to choose where you can save things differently each time

option+click

hmmm...or not. sorry.

mac15

Jun 10, 2003, 12:29 AM

8thDegreeSavage

Jun 10, 2003, 01:11 AM

jettredmont

Jun 10, 2003, 10:19 AM

Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
Serious question: what's wrong with saving them to the desktop or a given folder, and then moving them later? I don't like being asked every time where I want something saved, and I can't think of a good way to let the browser know that I want to be asked sometimes but not other times.

IMHO, if the functionality to right-click and move the download from the Download "Manager" window that pops up was there, I'd be happy. I mean, the DLManager right now is next to useless ...

But, yes, I prefer the browser defaulting to a common location and being able to handle the case where I want it to go somewhere else on an as-needed basis, so long as the "Move this file" dialog "remembers" where I moved the last file in some way that's 1-or-2 clicks away at all times (ie, the "Recent" list in the open/save dialogs)

jettredmont

Jun 10, 2003, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
we have been getting a lot of hits from apple domains, so i took a look at what os and browsers they were using.

most were jag and safari v74.

but there was a good number of safari v80 and even some safari version 83u (and of course a good number of camino builds as well; woohoo!)

just thought it was interesting (btw no non-mac oses)

Functional groups within Apple are fairly well-bounded. You generally won't find, for instance, a hardware engineer at Apple with the latest alpha build of Safari. This is one of the main reasons why Apple is so effective at keeping a secret (there was a magazine article in Business Week or somesuch a year or so back, around the time of the iMac LCD debut perhaps, which went into more detail ...)

Note that you'll see a lot of hits from within the Apple domain that come from people who know no more about Apple's plans than you and I ...