IBM Drives - Not For 24/7 Use (!)

[blakespot]

It is no secret in the storage world that IBM's 75GXP drives have had reliability issues. We've seen stories of users replacing drive after drive of this particular device. There is even a law suit pending against IBM with regards to this drive. The successor to this drive was the IBM 60GXP series, a drive which does not seem to have generated the same, unusual level of user problem reports. Apple has used (is using?) this drive in recent G4 units.
The plot thickened when IBM recently released their high-capacity 120 GXP series, but in the specs indicated that it is only to be used for 333 hours/month (11 hours/day avg). This staggering recommendation makes the drive useless for server use or use in machines that are on 24/7. Well, a recent article (http://www.viahardware.com/ibm120gxp.shtm) on VIAHardware.com delves into this issue and discovers, disturbingly, that IBM has indicated this usage guideline on ALL of the GXP line. While this guideline is easy to for the 120GXP (on that drive's spec web page), it's buried a little deeper for their other drives (to quote the article):
<ul>Neither the 75GXP nor the 60GXP have the 333 hour-per-month specification mentioned in their own versions of that document, however. The 60GXP lists this setting only in its “Functional Specifications” document—a hefty 195 page engineering-level PDF. The specification in question is located ‘prominently’ on page 50 in a relatively small section. The 75GXP, on the other hand, does not have a “Functional Specification” link and does not mention the limitation on its data sheet either. I was unable, in fact, to even FIND mention of such a limitation for this particular model. </ul>
So...as indicated by IBM, if you have any GXP-series drive and are using it more than 333 hours/month (11 hours/day avg) then you are exceeding its spec and failure would seem to lay in wait. Some of the most disturbing news I've heard in quite a while.

[Mr. Anderson]

What models?

[blakespot]

Sadly this is the main drive in my dual G4 800 with uptimes that run in terms of months. Very disturbing. Very misleading.

This is less than I would expect from IBM. That warning should be in big, red letters emblzoned across the front of the drive and its packaging.


blakespot

[blakespot]

Originally posted by dukestreet
What models?

Apple uses a variety of drives in their machines. Mine came with a 5,400 RPM IBM 40GV. I added a 60GXP to the unit upon receiving it. Arn's Mac came with the 60GXP installed.


blakespot

[Dunepilot]

This is something of a return to the dark days of computing when you couldn't rely on any given hardware item 100%, and even though it looked like we had got away from this, here comes a reminder that it isn't just computer software that still has some way to go.

:(

.... and IBM had such a great reputation for its drives only a year ago.

[Hemingray]

That is scary. And I'm sorry, but I can't think of any other regular-use drive like that that has a limitation like that. That is a Step Back in technology. That seems very much unlike IBM... but then what do I know. :rolleyes:

[blakespot]

There seems to be an assumption of a heat-related issue here. ...and it is _hot_ in a dual 800 mini tower.

I definitely would not have purchased that drive if I had known it was of questionable durability.



blakespot

[GPTurismo]

I just purchased four of the GXP60s here at work for servers. Nice work IBM.

I had a 60 GIG HDD come stock in my Dual 800, i need to go home and check the brand now. If it's an IBM I am going to write apple and see if they will replace it :B

[krossfyter]

terrible. so which apple computers come with these drives?

[barkmonster]

Is it 333 hours of being powered or 333 hours of being active ?

I'd assume any time the drive isn't reading or writing data that it wouldn't count in the limit because it wouldn't be doing anything to generate any heat.

This is a really bad situation because only one other brand of hard drive comes close the performance of the deskstar drives and they are western digital, if the WD drives have the same limit, what option to people have other than going back to SCSI just for the reliability of the drives.

[eric_n_dfw]

I've got a pair of GXP 75 75GB drives in my B&W G3 (with a G4 400 upgrade) and a pair of Western Digital Expert 18GB's. (as well as the stock Apple/Seagate? 6GB)

The IBM drives gave me a little trouble when they were mounted on top of each other in the dual drive bracket in the back of the case. I read somewhere that they need an inch or so breathing room on top so I moved them to the side-by-side mounts at the front and middle of the case. I used one of those round (non-ribbon) style UDMA cables from Fry's (24") so it would reach both drives without crimping. I have had 0 problems since then (about 2 months ago) and I do leave the machine on 24/7 (www.ericsmalling.com)

For those interested, the 2 18GB WD drives are mounted above the DVD-ROM assembly in a bracket from ProMax.com - I'm not sure they still sell it though) I put a small fan up there to keep air moving.) All four are running off a Sonnet Tempo/66 PCI card.

I also have one of those fans that take up a PCI slot to pull heat off the bottom of the case where the IBM and Seagate drives are.

[blakespot]

Originally posted by barkmonster
Is it 333 hours of being powered or 333 hours of being active ?

I'd assume any time the drive isn't reading or writing data that it wouldn't count in the limit because it wouldn't be doing anything to generate any heat.

I just corrected the main story. That's 333 power-on hours/month.



blakespot

[Mr. Anderson]

Are these IDE or SCSI

I have SCSI, and I haven't had any problems yet with them running almost continuously for over a year. Even though I looked at the drives in System Profiler (trying not to have to open the case) the GSX label isn't part of the Product ID or Serial #.

Someone let me know if it is.

Thanks.

[blakespot]

Originally posted by dukestreet
Are these IDE or SCSI
IDE.


blakespot

[Mr. Anderson]

I just checked my Titanium and the 48 Gig drive is an IBM, but again, nothing in the data saying anything about GXP.

[blakespot]

Originally posted by dukestreet
I just checked my Titanium and the 48 Gig drive is an IBM, but again, nothing in the data saying anything about GXP.
The GXP is a 3.5" desktop drive. Your TiBook has a 2.5" drive.


blakespot

[OSUbuckeyefan]

Originally posted by barkmonster
\...the only one other brand of hard drive comes close the performance of the deskstar drives and they are western digital...
I know this is a bit off topic, but what about the seagate barracouda IV drives...:confused: I think they are quite highly rated.

[prechrchet]

At the risk of sounding like an idiot: does anyone have any idea which models of Macs are using these kinds of drives? I have a 933 G4, and my system profile doesn't say anything about one of my drives being made by IBM. Does this mean I am out of the woods?

[krossfyter]

thats what i asked but i never really got an answer to it. i guess i got overlooked or i didnt ask a question up to par.

[elgruga]

We run 3 sets of two IBM 9 gig 7200 scsi drives external to our 3 G3 servers.
2 years and counting, no problems. (Miles Initio 2 cards, also trouble-free)
The drives were not cheap, but they are superb.

I think that IBM is struggling here because of pressure to drop prices and increase drive capacities at the same time.
This is probably an impossible task.

When I go the store to look for a drive for a desktop machine, I am looking for a cheap IDE with huge capacity.
I often wonder why.
Our website has about 2 mb of files, and software accounts for, say a gig at most.
Why do I need 80 gigs?

Average usage on a desktop is about 5 gigs - what the hell do I need 60, or 80 for?

Give me 9 gigs of expensive, well-built SCSI.
We also run a pair of Seagate Cheetahs, 10k rpm, cost more than the IBM's, over 2 years old, running a bit hotter than the the IBM's, but faster and just as reliable.

IDE - we have bitten by the PC cheap and nasty bug.

You get exactly what you pay for.

[rjgjonker]

From the 60GXP manual PDF:
Expected product life is 5 years under typical desktop PC usage conditions:
- 333 Power-On Hours (POH) per month.
- Seeking/writing/reading operation to be 20% of POH at 40°C or lower environmental temperature.

It doesn't say it's recommended to limit the use of the drive to 333 h/month, it's just used as a basis for the calculation of expected lifetime. Probably nothing to worry (at least not for 60GXP owners).

[blakespot]

Originally posted by elgruga

Average usage on a desktop is about 5 gigs - what the hell do I need 60, or 80 for?
My DP G4 800 has 260GB storage, and 2/3 of it is full.

I suppose I'm not average.



blakespot

[blakespot]

Originally posted by rjgjonker
From the 60GXP manual PDF:


It doesn't say it's recommended to limit the use of the drive to 333 h/month, it's just used as a basis for the calculation of expected lifetime. Probably nothing to worry (at least not for 60GXP owners).

If you scale that to 24/7 operation, you get 2yrs 3mos life expectancy for that drive. That's doubtless not an accurate way to calculate it--but it would seem the constant heat of the drive without the off-periods could actually result in a shorter life than that. I will have my DP G4 800 2-3 years from now. My G3 400 lasted me 2yrs 8mos.



blakespot

[eric_n_dfw]

Originally posted by elgruga
Why do I need 80 gigs?

Average usage on a desktop is about 5 gigs - what the hell do I need 60, or 80 for?
Do you use iMovie or Final Cut Pro?
Start using them and you'll know why.

[Choppaface]

anybody know where they post this stuff? I'd like to know the rating for a 100 GB western digital caviar


and ya I don't see why people need so much hard disk space. I always burn any media I'm not using onto CDs

[ivtrk]

.

[ivtrk]

.

[evildead]

My Quicksilver came with a 60GB IBM drive and I just got a second one this weekend. I leave my Mac up for days at a time... this really sucks!! I havent had any problems yet and I have had my Quicksiver for a while now... I got it right after they came out... so... whats that ... about 9 months or so?

I hope My drives dont fail.......

[Ensign Paris]

It might just be me but it seems that this would make sense to me, if I used my printer or scanner constantly for 333 it would die, as would my TV!

Ensign

[G4scott]

I had a quantum (? I think) HD in my G4 400 (The company got bought out by Maxtor). The drive one day just started to make clicking noises, and wouldn't work unless I held one end up, so i just did that, and backed up my data. I've also seen the same drive go bad in several dells. If Apple made Hard Drives, they would be faster, simpler, and have great reliability!

A little off topic, but i wonder if it would be possible to attach 5 gigs of RAM (10 512mb chips) to an IDE controler? Can you say fast! (and expensive). That would be cool...

[me hate windows]

Originally posted by Ensign Paris
It might just be me but it seems that this would make sense to me, if I used my printer or scanner constantly for 333 it would die, as would my TV!

Ensign
you are right. Electronics are not perfect. They have to take a rest just like a car, a human, animals, and anything else. If we tried to stay up for 333 hours, we would probably get very sick and weak and not be able to do anything for a long time. If a car was running for 333 hours it would definately die(not to mention refueling). If your computer is not a server, then just turn it off at not and you won't have to worry. If it is a server then replace it with a Seagate if you are worried about your files.(I wonder what the Apple and Akaimi servers are using for hard drives?) They are most likely on for 24/7. Just don't be to scared over it. Either way you should always have a backup for your hard drive. I back up all my important apps like Final Cut, After Effects, and all the other thousands of dollars worth of applications I have on my iPod and on a tape drive.

[me hate windows]

Originally posted by G4scott
I had a quantum (? I think) HD in my G4 400 (The company got bought out by Maxtor). The drive one day just started to make clicking noises, and wouldn't work unless I held one end up, so i just did that, and backed up my data. I've also seen the same drive go bad in several dells. If Apple made Hard Drives, they would be faster, simpler, and have great reliability!

A little off topic, but i wonder if it would be possible to attach 5 gigs of RAM (10 512mb chips) to an IDE controler? Can you say fast! (and expensive). That would be cool...
You could physically attach 5 gigs of ram onto a controller. But it can only recognize a certain amount(not sure what it is). Take the G4 Sawtooth for example. It has 4 ram slots. You could physically put in 2 gigs, but it only recognizes 1.5, so I wouldn't waste your money if you were thinking of trying it.:rolleyes: ;)

[blakespot]

Originally posted by me hate windows

you are right. Electronics are not perfect. They have to take a rest just like a car, a human, animals, and anything else. If we tried to stay up for 333 hours, we would probably get very sick and weak and not be able to do anything for a long time. If a car was running for 333 hours it would definately die(not to mention refueling). If your computer is not a server, then just turn it off at not and you won't have to worry. If it is a server then replace it with a Seagate if you are worried about your files.(I wonder what the Apple and Akaimi servers are using for hard drives?) They are most likely on for 24/7. Just don't be to scared over it. Either way you should always have a backup for your hard drive. I back up all my important apps like Final Cut, After Effects, and all the other thousands of dollars worth of applications I have on my iPod and on a tape drive.
A life form's need for sleep has nothing to do with and is not an excuse for this shortcoming of the IBM drives. Machines do not need "rest" in the sense that animals do. It shouldn't matter whether a machine operates with 6 hour intervals of inoperation spread throghout, or if it's a continuous run, so to speak. Wear and tear is going to happen at the same rate during periods of work. There is no "healing" as there is in animals. An overabundance of heat can complicate this situation, and that is presumably what is happening here.

Why should I have to turn off my machine. My desktop PC is a Unix server, for all intents and purposes. I can access it via http, ftp, ssh, etc. I find it useful to be able to hit it from the office. I have not turned a computer off at night since 1994. If IBM drives are not up to this challenge, it should be written across the front of the drive in large, red letters.

I've had other hard drives with MTBF's on the order of hundreds of thousands of hours. A Quantum ProDrive 700 SCSI I still have has a 25-year (24/7 operation) MTBF rating. It still works after 8 years of operation and lives in an Amiga 2000 presently. I am sad to see this from IBM.



blakespot

[AmbitiousLemon]

100GB Western Digital Cavier, 7,200 RPM spin speed delivers top performance.

WD Caviar Series

Western Digital's WD Caviar 7200 RPM EIDE hard drives are the performance champions for advanced desktop personal computers. The latest drives achieve world-class areal densities and a wide range of drive capacities ideal for storing Internet downloads, music and video files. WD Caviar 7200 RPM drives offer Ultra ATA/100 and Ultra ATA/66 interfaces, low seek times and up to 100 MB/s data transfer rates, all of which add up to a fast data delivery system.

Specs:
RPM: 7200; Access time: 8.9 ms; Cache buffer: 2 MB; Interface: Ultra ATA; Warranty: 3 years

Seagate Barracuda IV drive combines high storage capacity with silent running.

New Seagate Barracuda IV with fourth-generation fluid dynamic bearing Technology allows this 7200-rpm 80GB IDE drive to offer top-notch performance while keeping sound levels below the threshold of human perception.
The Barrcuda IV has a 2 MB internal cache buffer & 8.9 ms average seek time. The drive's Ultra DMA/100 interface allows for burst transfers up to 100 MBps. To further boost the drive's reliability, the company incorporated its 3D Defense System data and diagnostic protection.

Barracuda ATA IV Drives

Seagate Barracuda ATA IV family of disc drives consist of 20, 40, 60 and 80 GB capacities. The Ultra DMA/100 Barracuda ATA IV has 2MB internal cache and rates it as being able to provide internal transfers up to 555 megabits per second (equivalent to about 69MB per second) and an 8.9-ms average seek time. The drive's Ultra DMA/100 interface allows for burst transfers up to 100 MBps.
Seagate has incorporated a new SoftSonic motor with a fourth-generation fluid dynamic bearing allows this 7200-rpm 80GB IDE drive to offer top-notch performance while keeping sound levels below the threshold of human perception.

Specs:
Speed: 72,00 RPM; Seek time: 8.9 ms (Avg); Cache Buffer: 2 MB Warranty: 3 Years


New Maxtor 536DX , 100 GB 5400 RPM drives.

Their Ultra ATA/100 interface and 2MB SDRAM cache buffer provide data transfer speeds up to 100 megabytes per second. They also have Maxtor Adaptive ATA Control™ for unsurpassed data integrity and Maxtor Silent Store™ technology for whisper-quiet acoustic performance.

Maxtor 536DX ATA Drives

Maximize your computer’s data storage capacity with Maxtor 536DX hard drives. These high-capacity drives, available in formatted capacities up to 100GB, are designed for fast desktop systems and small workstations. They’re specifically suited to storage-hungry multimedia and Internet applications where high burst and sustained transfer rates are crucial. Their Ultra ATA/100 interface and 2MB SDRAM cache buffer provide data transfer speeds up to 100 megabytes per second.

Specs:
Speed: 54,00 RPM; Seek time: 9 ms (Avg); Cache Buffer: 2 MB Warranty: 3 Years.


IBM DeskStar 120 GXP

The Deskstar 120GXP sets a new standard in disk drive performance with a maximum media data rate of 592 megabits per second (MBbits/s) internal transfer rate, and 8.5 milliseconds (ms) average seek time, delivering optimal multimedia performance and video playback. These combine to enable leading sustained data rate of up to 48MB/sec.

Specs:
RPM: 7200; Acces time: 8.5 ms; Cache buffer: 2 MB; Interface: Ultra ATA-5; Warranty: 3 years

Technology for capacity and performance

? Antiferromagnetically coupled (AFC) media enables higher capacities per square inch of data surface. ? Glass disks provide smoother media for the ever-shrinking bit size. ? Three-disk design provides leading 120GB capacity at 7,200rpm. ? IBM-designed onboard processor provides faster speeds than the previous generation. ? Advanced buffer management bursts data to the system at up to 100MB/sec. ? Enhanced servo system provides reliable head positioning.


and for those who dont mind following a link and reading check out this article on ibm's drives http://www.storage.ibm.com/hdd/press/20011107.htm
and this article on ibm's microdrive:
http://www.storage.ibm.com/hdd/press/micro/20020220b.htm

ibm in my mind is still the leaderin modile harddrives. looks like they might be seeing some stiff competition for the desktop market though and this news is not doing them any good. i can remember the day when maxtor and western digital were considered the bottom of the barrel as far as hardware is considered and seagate was too expensive. things have changed and ibm is not doing what it needs to do to stay in control of desktop hardware.

[Choppaface]

phew! 3 year warranty on my WD

[bollman]

IDE-drives has gone cheaper and bigger every day the last 10 years. I must say I shed a few tears when Apple dropepd SCSI. IDE-drives are just not made for 24/7 use and they sure are low-quality! We bought 17 iMacs with 10GB Maxtor in them in June 2000. 10 of these now makes too much noise to be used! My 30GB Seagate in my PC has bad sectors. I have at least 10 faulty Quantum Fireball drives in my shelves. On the other hand most SCSI-drives works just fine. I have one 1,3GB Seagate from 1992 which still runs fine (it has been fitted in a server until 2000).
Sure, SCSI costs a lot more but you sure gain power and reliability. Our G4 867 which acts as a NetBoot server for 25 iMacs is fitted with a 36GB 15k rpm Segate and an Adaptec 29160. Sweet... The 1,1GB Ram also contributes to the over all experience of Mac OS X Server...

The main issue here is money. We have all complained about the high prices on Macs. Apple made them conform more to PC-standards (IDE, SDRAM, AGP, and so on) which sure make them cheaper but also as "low quality" as PC:s.

On the issue of being run 24/7: Most electronics likes to run all the time. Most error occur at powercycles. I would guess that if you never shut down your GXP it would surely run for several years. The heat the discs generate makes the discs inside expand and every time you shut down your computer it contracts as it cools down. This can cause serious damage to the entire drive.

[rjgjonker]

Originally posted by me hate windows
If your computer is not a server, then just turn it off at not and you won't have to worry. If it is a server then replace it with a Seagate if you are worried about your files.

Why should you replace a hard drive with The Worst Brand On Earth�?
There is a reason why Seagate drives are so cheap…

[blackpeter]

My G4/533 will be 1 year old in April.

This machine in powered on about 15hrs of every day. And about a month ago my IBM 40GB (7,200RPM) failed.

Of course, Apple replaced the drive (under warranty) and now I've got a Maxtor in my tower. I'm just glad the POS IBM broke before my year was up.

I bet IBM was counting on the thing to make it just beyond a year so I'd have to spend my own money on a new drive. Seems like a lot of electronics work that way.

[eogold]

I have a DP450 G4. Apple System Profiler reports that my drive is an IBM DTLA-307030. According to IBM's website my drive is a DeskStar 75GXP 30gb 7200, which jives with what Apple System Profiler reports.

I talked to IBM's tech support on this drive (888-426-5214) and the technician told me the the 333 hr/month is an average expected usage figure and NOT a specification which shouldn't be exceeded.

I read to him the following from the blakespot article:
"So...as indicated by IBM, if you have any GXP series drive and leave it on more than 333 hours month (11 hours/day avg) then you are exceeding its spec and failure would seem to lay in wait."

The tech told me the above statement was false.

[Ifeelbloated]

This is interesting. So you mean to tell me that the harddrive in my new G4 may die after about a month of continuous use? I was always leery about ATA drives. Cheap but at what cost the relative low price? My other Mac which is 4 years old now has a SCSI drive setup and it runs perfect. I even put a Seagate Cheetah 10k rpm harddrive in it. Sounds like a jet engine spooling up, I actually think it's kind of cool. Can the new machines be outfitted with SCSI even if came with ATA drives?

[grrr223]

and ya I don't see why people need so much hard disk space. I always burn any media I'm not using onto CDs

but then you have to go searching through your CDs to find the file. I know you can label them or use programs so you can search through them, but those all take time and are unnecessary if you just have them all on your hard drive. And as cheap as CDs are becoming these days, they're still not free. It's also very nice being able to just hit shuffle on my 30 gig of MP3s (when I'm not listenign to my 400 disc CD player, I like big things)

bollman, I totally agree, I was about to say that same thing about the power cycles. Now, this isn't backed up by anything, but I've heard/it makes sense that the jolt from power up and the temperature changes as well can cause more damage than keeping the drive (or any electrical component) at the same temperature for it's entire life (obviously as long as it's an appropriately low temperature). Sort of like how the stop and go of highway traffic is worse on your car than just driving 65 mph for an extended period of time.

It might just be me but it seems that this would make sense to me, if I used my printer or scanner constantly for 333 it would die, as would my TV!


I really don't think that's true. Take my G3 for instance. I don't think it has been off for 24 hours since i bought it and took it to college at MIT. Even over breaks, I leave it on as a fileserver so I can always get to my stuff from home. It works. i guess I've jsut had really good luck with my hard drive. i really should look at options to back up my stuff. Another example would be say the laser printer in our computer cluster. During the last month before finals it has paper being printed out of it almost 24/7 and the rest of the time it only gets small breaks (I love our school's free printing policies). Things are built to last and endure. I don't know whether we are just blowing a quote out of context, or if IBM has really dropped the ball on this model drive, but you should be able to expect quality from electronics today.

[me hate windows]

Originally posted by rjgjonker


Why should you replace a hard drive with The Worst Brand On Earth??
There is a reason why Seagate drives are so cheap…
Seagate drives aren't crap

[rjgjonker]

Originally posted by me hate windows

Seagate drives aren't crap

And Windows is user friendly…

[jefhatfield]

too many people do not use external storage media and it will always remain that way

hard drive space will then always be a big selling point for computer users

[eyelikeart]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
too many people do not use external storage media and it will always remain that way

hard drive space will then always be a big selling point for computer users

slightly off topic...

But u are right in many ways. Videographers are the first to come to mind when needing massive amounts of external space. Musicians who do digital editing also are in the same space-needing category. The first time I ever saw a RAID array was in a Media100 booth at the NBC affiliate where I interned a few years ago...killer system!!! :p

I've had external storage ever since I upgraded my TiBook's hd...and the external is almost full now!!! :eek:

[TyleRomeo]

hey so the G4s can hold up to 260GB internally or is this a misleading fact. Im curious since I'll be doing plenty of DV and MP3 editing.

Tyler

[blakespot]

Originally posted by TyleRomeo
hey so the G4s can hold up to 260GB internally or is this a misleading fact. Im curious since I'll be doing plenty of DV and MP3 editing.

Tyler
You'd need to add an UltraATA/133 PCI interface board to the Mac, but you should be able to have at least 320GB internally to the G4 towers. I can't recall whether or not there is a third drive mountpoint in the case, but if so that'd be 480GB total internally. (Maxtor's 160GB drive is the highest capacity out there.)


blakespot