Motorola, The G4 and PowerBook Updates

[MacRumors]

The Register provides (http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/31424.html) some insight and rumors into upcoming G4 processors from Motorola. According to their article, MPC7457 processors from Motorola are arriving sooner than expected:

While originally slated for Q4 2003, according to Synergy Microsystems (a Motorola customer):

Final 7457 boards will ship in Q3, says Synergy, "when production quantities of the [7457] become available".


The new chip from Motorola (announced in February) increases the L2 cache as well as the L3 cache and provides a max speed of 1.3GHz -- and incorporates a 200MHz frontside bus, allowing for DDR400 support.

The Register expects this chip to be the most likely processor for the upcoming PowerBook.

This is consistent with one unverified rumor that upcoming PowerBooks come in at 1.3GHz.

[QuiteSure]

I think the G4 has to have a future for Apple. Apple has to create a computer for the sub-$1000 market, and only the G4 will fit the bill. I see this as excellent news.

[MattG]

1.3Ghz with a 200mhz front side bus is plenty, G5 or no G5. I'd be plenty happy with that. Come on Apple, MAKE IT!

[Laslo Panaflex]

Sounds pretty likely to me considering the recent comments that the powerbooks won't be seeing a G5 iteration any time soon. A 200mhz frontside bus DDR 400 1.3 gig G4 laptop would be pretty sweet.

[Freg3000]

Well, if Joswiak says that we won't see a G5 in the PowerBook soon, I guess this is the next best thing.

I really hope Apple has two competing chip makers in the future.

[Eric_Z]

and provides a max speed of 1.3GHz

For the MPC7457 not the XPC7457...

[alia]

If that's the case, I won't feel quite so bad about not getting a powerbook with a G5. I don't know if I can actually wait that long. :)

I've been waiting to switch for 6 months.


Alia

[wondermite]

Apple will NOT update the 15" to a faster CPU than the 17". They have never done that, never will.

*The 15" will be updated when the rest of the line is updated in late Q3.* Get used to it. Meanwhile, I'm using my crappy paint-peeling slow-arse G4/550.

[tjwett]

Personally I think the G4 is a mule and always will be. I'd much rather see the portables switch to G3 across the board. The iBooks could use the standard and the PowerBooks could use the Gobi or whatever the one is that has AltiVec tacked on. If it would help on the heat issue I think it'd be great. Hell, they could even call it a G4, I won't tell anyone. ;)

[DanUk2003]

WE WANT G5 POWERBOOKS!!!!

FOR GOODNESS SAKE!!!



Sorry.... rant over with, but for crying out loud, PowerBook's are PRO models - so let's give them G5's, and FINALLY make the iBook's G4.

[dswoodley]

Originally posted by wondermite
Apple will NOT update the 15" to a faster CPU than the 17". They have never done that, never will.

*The 15" will be updated when the rest of the line is updated in late Q3.* Get used to it. Meanwhile, I'm using my crappy paint-peeling slow-arse G4/550.

yes, this true...but only because the 17" is brand new :rolleyes:

[wondermite]

Originally posted by dswoodley
yes, this true...but only because the 17" is brand new :rolleyes:

I meant "never upgraded the middle of a line to be better than the high end of the line. In other words, 15" PBs will never be the top of the PB line, unless the 17" is dropped.

[beefcake]

If the new 1.3 Ghz PB's are available before August, I'll buy one.

[encro]

No, keep the iBooks with a G3.
Just add Altivec in with the Gobi's.

G4's are terrible processors. I own one. The only benefit that the G4 had over G3 was AltiVec.

[mymemory]

Originally posted by tjwett
Personally I think the G4 is a mule and always will be.

No wonder I exchange my Dual 500 for a Powerbook G3 500, if I'm gonna run slow at list let me enjoy some portability. :rolleyes:

[QCassidy352]

Originally posted by encro
No, keep the iBooks with a G3.
Just add Altivec in with the Gobi's.

G4's are terrible processors. I own one. The only benefit that the G4 had over G3 was AltiVec.

quite right! And the Gobi G3s are rumored to debut at 1.2 Ghz, and be able to hit 2 Ghz. I bet we would have seen them in ibooks by now if not for the incredibly slow progress on the G4 powerbook processors.

[aaronvegh]

Originally posted by encro
No, keep the iBooks with a G3.
Just add Altivec in with the Gobi's.

G4's are terrible processors. I own one. The only benefit that the G4 had over G3 was AltiVec.

What's with the G4 dissin'? This is the first time ever I've heard anyone badmouth the G4. And now twice on this page?!

Can someone explain what's wrong with the G4? And what makes the Gobi a superior processor?

[richard5mith]

Originally posted by DanUk2003
Sorry.... rant over with, but for crying out loud, PowerBook's are PRO models - so let's give them G5's, and FINALLY make the iBook's G4.

Do you not think Apple would put the G5's in there if they could?

The new Power Mac has NINE fans in it, that thing is giving off so much heat. They have to have a cheese grater front and back to get the air to flow through it adequately.

Therefore putting it in a one inch thick case is not exactly something that is just going to happen overnight. These things take engineering time and money, and they haven't even got the new Power Mac's shipping yet. Unless of course you want red hot laptop for dinner.

And yes yes, you can talk about supposed 1.4Ghz G5's all you want, but the G5 hasn't been designed as a laptop chip and therefore I doubt even that model comes anywhere near the 16.6W the new G4 comes in at (especially when the 1.8 G5 comes in at 42W).

You should just be thankful they don't have to totally cripple the G4 to make it work in a laptop, unlike the PC side of things where the laptops are always slower than identical Mhz desktops. It's one of the reasons Mac laptops sell so well, the speed difference between them and PC laptops isn't really there.

There's nothing wrong with the G4, I have a 667Mhz Powerbook that is serving me fine. And it should serve me even better once Panther is on there if reports of it's increased speed are any indication.

(of course, it'll run better on my G5 tower when I get that in August... :))

[hvfsl]

I am expecting 1.1Ghz and 1.3Ghz G4 Powerbooks soon then (before the end of July). I hope they use ATI's Radeon 9600M instead of the slow Nvidia Geforce 4Go. I am looking to get a new Powerbook and since it looks like there will be no G5 Powerbooks for a while a new G4 will have to do.

[tpjunkie]

What's with the G4 dissin'? This is the first time ever I've heard anyone badmouth the G4. And now twice on this page?!

Where have you been while moto's been NOT developing the G4? THe G4's been getting ripped on for quite some time...at least once it became apparent that the 970 was coming

[moosecat]

Originally posted by hvfsl
I am expecting 1.1Ghz and 1.3Ghz G4 Powerbooks soon then (before the end of July).

Why do you think they'll ship by then? The chips aren't even shipping until "Q3" (which could mean anything from July to September), and surely they need at least a few weeks to put the machines on shelves. I took this news bit as BAD news for quick PowerBook updates.

This is really important to me -- if it's going not going to be until August or September, I'm going to give in to the little devil on my shoulder and buy a 12". If it's going to be July, I'll surrender to the little angel on my shoulder and wait it out.

[MattG]

Originally posted by richard5mith
Do you not think Apple would put the G5's in there if they could?

The new Power Mac has NINE fans in it, that thing is giving off so much heat. They have to have a cheese grater front and back to get the air to flow through it adequately.


Yeah, but don't forget that the 9-fan cooling system has to cool Dual 2-ghz processors, a hard drive (two hard drives in some systems) that spins at 7200 RPM (faster than the hard drives in the notebooks and puts off more heat), PCI devices, a huge graphics card (I *know* those put off heat), etc. etc.

[Steamboatwillie]

What a painful time. The Current G4's got slower, the faster G5's aren't available, the G3 is still the G3 and any sane person would hold on to thier money until the storm settles! Not that any of the current line wouldn't serve you well it's just that it seems like, all of a sudden, whatever you buy today will be "That 'ol piece of crap" in a few months. This has always been somewhat of a truth but now it seems clearly laid out. By the time the G5's are shipping what will be released that is due to ship in the following months? I'm excited as the rest of you but I feel like my head is spinning! I bought a dual 1.25 w/1mb cache in February and the machine runs like a champ. Now, four months later, the better 2mb cache version is $400 less and a base G5 is the same price. I don't feel ripped 'cause the box is champ and I totally love it. I guess I just wish there was some sort of upgrade or trade in path. Apple would get more money from me more often if there was. Sorry about the rant. That being said I guess the news of the new G4's pretty much means nothing to me. :mad:

[tjwett]

Originally posted by aaronvegh
What's with the G4 dissin'? This is the first time ever I've heard anyone badmouth the G4. And now twice on this page?!

Can someone explain what's wrong with the G4? And what makes the Gobi a superior processor?

the G4 is HOT for one thing, power hungry, and obviously not very scalable. it's a dead horse, let's not keep beating it.
Go G3!!!

[MattG]

I guess I just wish there was some sort of upgrade or trade in path.

I agree. As a 1+ year Mac user, that's probably the thing that frustrates me the most (well, that and the lack of an eject button on the CD-ROM drives, but that's a whole other thread). I buy something, and then six months later it's obsolete, and there's NOTHING I can do to it. At least with my PC, I can rip out the processor and stick a new one in there.

[primalman]

Originally posted by wondermite
Apple will NOT update the 15" to a faster CPU than the 17". They have never done that, never will.

*The 15" will be updated when the rest of the line is updated in late Q3.* Get used to it. Meanwhile, I'm using my crappy paint-peeling slow-arse G4/550.

Who says they won't speed bump the entire line at the same time? :confused:

12", new 15" and 17". Seems logical to think this since the 12" and 17" have yet to be updated in 6 months.

Maybe 1 or 1.1ghz 12" and 15", and a 1.3 ghz 15" and 17". Hmmmm...

[StuPid QPid]

Originally posted by wondermite
Apple will NOT update the 15" to a faster CPU than the 17". They have never done that, never will.

Fair enough, but it doesn't mean they can't be equal, as is the case at the moment with the 1 GHz. Admittedly the 17" has a few more bells and whistles (e.g. airport extreme, FW800, Bluetooth built-in etc.)

My guess is they'll update the whole line with the new G4 (MPC7457) with a 1 GHz in the 12", 1Ghz and 1.3 GhZ in the 15.4" and 1.3 GhZ in the 17" - For me that's a nice line up, very tempting...but when????

Anyway why does everyone get so hot and bothered about what type of processor is in their machine? As long as it runs fast, and runs the apps I want e.g. Mac OS X and the iApps of course, then what's the problem. All Macs are at the end of the day are a box to run Mac OS X. What I don't like is buying a Mac, then seeing it updated two weeks later...

[macgroove]

Originally posted by wondermite
I meant "never upgraded the middle of a line to be better than the high end of the line. In other words, 15" PBs will never be the top of the PB line, unless the 17" is dropped.

I think this is not true! The 17" and the 12" are different from the 15" models. The latter having more models (low-end, middle-end and high-end). It will be just as fast as the 17" in some weeks time i bet u on that!

[cb911]

this is good news. i've been thinking that the 7457 might be the way to go, and it sounds like it should have a fair performance gain on the current 1GHz G4.

if it goes to 1.3GHz, with the 15" having the same features as the 17", then i'll be happy.

at least now we've got a rough idea about when it'll be released. this makes the wait a bit more bareable.

[greg6028]

Look how many people are talking about having a new PowerBook BEFORE school starts this Fall.
I have to guess Apple knows this and will update all 3 PowerBooks.
My guess
12" at 1 ghz G4
15" at 1.3 ghz G4
17" (too keep it king of hill)
maybe a dual 1.3 ghz G4??
and they will become all available my time school starts up again.
12" and 15" right away, 17" in Sept.
This is my guess-a-mate!

[MattG]

Originally posted by greg6028
Look how many people are talking about having a new PowerBook BEFORE school starts this Fall.
I have to guess Apple knows this and will update all 3 PowerBooks.
My guess
12" at 1 ghz G4
15" at 1.3 ghz G4
17" (too keep it king of hill)
maybe a dual 1.3 ghz G4??
and they will become all available my time school starts up again.
12" and 15" right away, 17" in Sept.
This is my guess-a-mate!

Sounds nice, but I just don't know if it's possible to put dual processors in a notebook. Just seems like it'd be too difficult to keep it cool.

[gotohamish]

THE G3 IBOOKS ARE SLOW!!!

Give them a G4, and let's have Pro portables, with the new Pro chip damnit!

[fraggle]

Originally posted by greg6028
I have to guess Apple knows this and will update all 3 PowerBooks.
My guess
12" at 1 ghz G4
15" at 1.3 ghz G4
17" (too keep it king of hill)
maybe a dual 1.3 ghz G4??

According to Motorola's documents there will be a low-voltage version running at 1GHz which would be a perfect fit for the 12" PB so I agree with that.

When it comes to the 15" and 17" models I am not quite sure what to expect. It would be possible to put two of the low-voltage CPUs in these machines without changing the power usage much compared to one 1.3GHz CPU with normal voltage... What would you prefer?

A dual 1.3GHz is IMHO not really to be expected, the two processors would draw over 30 watt which is really too much for a laptop.

[jwdawso]

I think we're expecting too little. The 7457 is a smaller 7455 with some improvements (e.g., bus speed). I'm expecting at least 1.42 as the high end. The 7457 & 7455 are also pin compatible, so expect all 3 PBs to be updated. My prediction -

12" - 7447 - 1 & 1.25 GHz - same price
15" - 7457 - 1.25 & 1.42 GHz - same price
17" - 7457 - 1.42 GHz - $2999

Will the 17" get a dual processor 7457? Possible at $3299. Only one processor runs while on battery.

Unfortunately, G5 PBs won't come until next year (.09 process 970/980?).

one last thing.... The update should take place by August 1. Apple will get the chips first.

[maler]

this is from oficial page of motorola:
* Three issue (plus branch) capability
* 128-bit wide vector unit -- AltiVec technology
* Integrated 512K on-chip L2 cache (twice the size of previous generation)
* Full Symmetric Multi-Processing capability (SMP)
* 36-bit physical address space for direct addressability of 64 Gigabytes of memory
* Hardware and Software Tablewalk
* High-bandwidth 133 MHz 64-bit MPX Bus/60x Bus
* 8 BAT registers
* Three power-saving user-programmable modes to reduce power drawn by processor
* Parity checking support on L1, L2 and L3 cache arrays

so OFICIAL max speed for FSB still 133 MHz... and no word about DDR memories. If you would like to know, why Apple is using them for non-ddr procesor, it's quite simple - there are not SDR memories, able to run at 166 MHz - so they need to moove to DDR, even if procesor doesn't support them.

[DaBeav]

Wait, what happened to "within weeks?" My head is spinning as well. I was holding out till WWDC to get a 15 and then I was thinking New York in two weeks... now it looks like Christmas. What gives... why are they jerking us around like this? (well I guess we are doing it to ourselves really) So now... the chips ship Q3 (July-Sept.) and then they have to be built. I don't think we are ever going to get a 15. I'll show them... I'm going to get a 17 instead. But then 6 months later the 15 will come out and I will get that and have to sell my 17... but then 6 months later the G5 will show up and...

So what do I do? I am working off a 14'' iBook and it is not cutting it with larger projects and I would like to get an extra monitor for more viewable desktop. And the 15 is the perfect size, and with an extra 17'' monitor would be about the price of one 17'' powerbook.

Does anyone have any credible argument as to wether they will be out in two weeks or 4 months?

[tizza]

I'm just hanging out to get my 12'' PB but this could make me hold out for another few months if we do get the new G4's!!!!

As everyone else has been saying too, I seriously can't see G5's going into PB's for a long time because of heat issues. You can't just turn a new desktop processor into a laptop processor overnight.

[beefcake]

My only arguement is logic. Apple should know that there are a *lot* of college students looking to buy Powerbooks before the end of August. As it stands now, although with Mac OS X PB's have a longer life than their PC counterparts, you can get a cheaper, faster PC. I really want Apple to pump out an updated PB before I'm forced to make a purchase. I don't want to go to school only to hear that 3 weeks after classes start the line gets updated.

[MattG]

I wish they would just give us some kind of idea when these are going to be released so we could all stop playing the guessing game. Even if they did something similar to what they did with the new G5's: Buy now, have it in August. Even if it was after August, just announce it and let us preorder it!! Damnit Apple, I want a laptop and I'm not buying another Ti, no matter how low you drop the prices!

[nydoofus]

I was disappointed by lack of a G5 announcement, but about the 7457, isn't this the chip that produces 7.5W of heat? Now I don't know all that much about CPU specifics but wouldn't this decrease in heat imply a decrease in power consumption, producing a decently fast laptop with battery life comparable or faster than the Centrino? Or am I just dreaming?

[jbomber]

Originally posted by DaBeav
Wait, what happened to "within weeks?" My head is spinning as well. I was holding out till WWDC to get a 15 and then I was thinking New York in two weeks... now it looks like Christmas. What gives... why are they jerking us around like this? (well I guess we are doing it to ourselves really) So now... the chips ship Q3 (July-Sept.) and then they have to be built. I don't think we are ever going to get a 15. I'll show them... I'm going to get a 17 instead. But then 6 months later the 15 will come out and I will get that and have to sell my 17... but then 6 months later the G5 will show up and...

Does anyone have any credible argument as to wether they will be out in two weeks or 4 months?


Man, this is killing me. :mad: I sold my damn 15" TiBook in the hopes that Apple would unveil a laptop as one of those now infamous mystery boxes. But NO! I really didn't think a G5 laptop was feasible, but maybe a speed bumped G4? The line is WAAAAY overdue and right now, I'd just settle for a cosmetic upgrade to the Aluminum feature set. Throw us a bone, man!

Apple's already got enough trouble trying to ship out those G5s by September, i dunno if they're gonna have what it takes to truly update the entire powerbook line in time for Macworld NY. The new chips aren't even due to be finished until Q3, and my guess is we're talking late Q3.

The money's here, burnin a hole in my pocket. Apple better come get it before the bill collectors and student loan people do. :)

[nydoofus]

Just as an aside, is this kind of upgrade enough to warrant a MacWorld (or CreativeExpo or w/e) announcment? To any non-techie observers, it will look merely like a speed bump to 1.3Ghz. Improved version of G4 non-withstanding, its not really something flashy to show off.

[Cobra Commander]

Originally posted by nydoofus
I was disappointed by lack of a G5 announcement, but about the 7457, isn't this the chip that produces 7.5W of heat? Now I don't know all that much about CPU specifics but wouldn't this decrease in heat imply a decrease in power consumption, producing a decently fast laptop with battery life comparable or faster than the Centrino? Or am I just dreaming?

As far as I know there is no Centrino chip. Centrino refers to the wireless technology on the laptop but it still runs off of a Pentium 4 M chip. It almost seems like Intel is trying to hide that by in some of the ads...

A PB G4 1.3 GHz w/ DDR 400 would make an excellent portable.

[pilotgi]

I'm not impressed. I've known about the 7457 since about the beginning of the year and the most umimpressive thing is the bus speed. Yes, there will be some improvement over the current G4's, but it's a modest upgrade.

There will be a die shrink to 130 nm, SOI, and an increase in the clockspeed. Moto never said that the bus speed would increase. I don't know where the 200 Mhz fsb spec comes from because that's not what they said originally.

If it's true, then I'll be more impressed. If it's not then... pssst, Hey Moto.... it's about the bandwidth stupid.

[slightlyoff]

Originally posted by Cobra Commander
As far as I know there is no Centrino chip. Centrino refers to the wireless technology on the laptop but it still runs off of a Pentium 4 M chip. It almost seems like Intel is trying to hide that by in some of the ads...


Oh boy...here we go.

"Centrino" is a marketing name and Trademark registered by Intel for the express purpose of getting OEM's and VAR's to purchase both the Pentium 3M and their 802.11b chipset. There is no "Centrino" chip, as such. There _is_ however a set of WiFi and CPU combinations which may be certified to carry the "Centrino" brand name.

That said, only the Pentium3M is currently available under the Centrino name (NOT the P4M). The P3M takes many of the same design routes that allow the G4 to have anything like acceptable performance (big local cache, etc..) despite the accompanying ****ty IO subsystems of laptops and the need to clock mobile chips lower so they don't char your legs.

As for Intel being caught with their marketing pants down, why do you think they had to come up with something like the "Centrino" brand anyway? For years and years they produced mind-numbingly clocked, cache-starved RISC processors with a CISC front-end and sold them by the boatload because their customers don't give a flying pig's hoof how many cache misses they suffered when using MS Word. AMD and Motorola have both called their bluff now, and the instruction starvation is catching up with them. To make a bad position worse, they can't very well renig on the years of marketing (and the really deep pipline decisions made with the the P4) and suddenly pronounce "slower is better!", now can they?

[macquariumguy]

Originally posted by MattG
At least with my PC, I can rip out the processor and stick a new one in there.
Really? You can take the processor out of a Dell (or any other brand) laptop and replace it with a faster one? I'm impressed.

[scan300]

Apple's Powerbook line is selling well. They don't need to bring out anything revolutionary above what's announced earlier this year in that area.

You won't see Apple slapping in a 970 in a PB without being able to resolve a raft of power / heat management issues as well as getting the performance architecture to match the performance of the chip. Maybe they are already working on an architecture that utilises the 980 at .09 micron fab that will work in portables, but won't be ready till 2005.

[DrGonzo]

There will be a die shrink to 130 nm

I can shrink the die 13nm->9nm, give me the file, i'll open it in photoshop, transform->scale, shrink it down a little, and then print it! New processors, smaller, faster, and better, FOR ALL!

EDIT: btw Apple, i am also a returning college student and while i don't need the laptop right away in August i would like to see something worthy released soon, don't disappoint me!

[nydoofus]

Originally posted by macquariumguy
Really? You can take the processor out of a Dell (or any other brand) laptop and replace it with a faster one? I'm impressed.

Actually you can. My ugly Dell Inspiron is theoretically upgradable top 1Ghz. I say theoritcal because the chips cost a hellvua lot, making it not that cost effective.

[nydoofus]

Originally posted by slightlyoff
Oh boy...here we go.

"Centrino" is a marketing name and Trademark registered by Intel for the express purpose of getting OEM's and VAR's to purchase both the Pentium 3M and their 802.11b chipset. There is no "Centrino" chip, as such. There _is_ however a set of WiFi and CPU combinations which may be certified to carry the "Centrino" brand name.

That said, only the Pentium3M is currently available under the Centrino name (NOT the P4M). The P3M takes many of the same design routes that allow the G4 to have anything like acceptable performance (big local cache, etc..) despite the accompanying ****ty IO subsystems of laptops and the need to clock mobile chips lower so they don't char your legs.

As for Intel being caught with their marketing pants down, why do you think they had to come up with something like the "Centrino" brand anyway? For years and years they produced mind-numbingly clocked, cache-starved RISC processors with a CISC front-end and sold them by the boatload because their customers don't give a flying pig's hoof how many cache misses they suffered when using MS Word. AMD and Motorola have both called their bluff now, and the instruction starvation is catching up with them. To make a bad position worse, they can't very well renig on the years of marketing (and the really deep pipline decisions made with the the P4) and suddenly pronounce "slower is better!", now can they?

Hehe, I had an opportunity to watch a salesman try to explain to a clueless customer that the P3M 1.6Ghz is faster than a P4M 2.0Ghz. "But it's faster see, its got more Ghz". Eventually he got through by comparing it to a long distance car race.

[SiliconAddict]

Its pretty simple. I won't be a “switcher” until the PowerBook has a G5. If that takes 6 month, a year, a decade I'll wait. I'm more then happy to stick with my Dell Latitude until then.
I think Apple is going to keep people from converting simply because of the speed difference of the G4 vs the G5. They have hyped up (OK hype might not be the right word.) the G5 so high that people’s expectations are that a G5 in a PowerBook is the next natural step. Anything less is going to put people off and possibly make them wait. I think PowerBook sales are going to suffer until a G5 shows up. IMHO of course.

[nydoofus]

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Its pretty simple. I won't be a “switcher” until the PowerBook has a G5. If that takes 6 month, a year, a decade I'll wait. I'm more then happy to stick with my Dell Latitude until then.
I think Apple is going to keep people from converting simply because of the speed difference of the G4 vs the G5. They have hyped up (OK hype might not be the right word.) the G5 so high that people’s expectations are that a G5 in a PowerBook is the next natural step. Anything less is going to put people off and possibly make them wait. I think PowerBook sales are going to suffer until a G5 shows up. IMHO of course.

Now... what if they advertise 7 hours of battery life? =)

[kikimus]

My guess is that Apple has a bit of inventory in the 12" and 17" powerbooks to be making any overnight changes. Not sure if anyone can comment on how this type of thing went down in the past.... ie a bump in speed / bus overnight on a (relatively) new line. Apple has been pretty cautious about not doing an Atari and having to firesale their old inventory.

My last discussion with an Apple rep (for what it's worth), the 15" Ti model was not selling too well. Most people were going for the 12" for the AL case and minor *cough* improvements (most are prolly unaware of L3 cache issues). If the new G4 is pin compatible with the old one, what in hell is holding up the 15" update (case, video, superdrive speed, etc...) if they are just going to switch processors. If they are coming and the Ti sales are sluggish, Apple should announce that they "are on the way" true, they may cause some people to not buy the 12" and wait for the 15", but you might also cause some people like myself who are ready to "Switch" to Wintel to hold on to hope.

Say what you want about how great the G4 is supposed to be, but it blows me away how Apple can pull off lowering the processor speed on a two year old G4 chip (from 1ghz to 867), kill the L3 cache, neuter the video and the RAM expandability and market it as part of the "Year of the Laptop". The 17" other than having a damn big screen is not a portable IMO. I am not argueing that the G4 is not a good processer, but I'm getting tired of waiting for a "revised" 15" and my eyes are starting to roam (as I suspect many are) to Wintel machines (which I will promptly run SuSE 8.2 on).

IMHO I don't think Apple really has a mass appeal laptop right now. You can point to the sales records for the 12". These are mainly the people updating from the G3's or older G4's. Sure the old 15" is not a bad alternative, but the sales pitch of "Welcome to the Apple Store, would you like to buy a 2 and a half year old laptop, with outdated video, a slower superdrive, and no airport extreme" is lost on me.

[MhzDoesMatter]

No one even knew about the "G5" until a week ago. "Everyone wants a g5"? I just want a fast computer that works. And G4's work. But having swallowed hazardous amounts of Kool-Aid, every one now thinks the G5 is the de facto standard for acceptable performance. But odds are, none of u have even seen one.

I've seen a G4, a 550 Mhz G4 in a Titanium PowerBook. And if a G4 with twice the clock speed can do twice as much as this one, then screw the G5. That's all I need in a portable. That's all almost anyone needs in a portable.

Find a better way to measure your genitals than with a computer.


-Hertz

[erova]

man i hear you guys....

i sold my rev A g4 500 last week thinking that sooner or later apple might think it's a good idea to replace an outdated machine...

i really can't believe they even keep the 15" for sale on the web site... if anyone bought one of those i'd love to pitch a great bridge in brooklyn that has their name allllllll over it...

[kikimus]

I don't even care if the new 15" has a 1Ghz G4. As long as it has the new case, updated superdrive & airport extreme.

I think it is an embarrasment that they have the old 15" sitting on the website between the 2 new powerbooks, it ought to be on the "bargains" page.

The G4 is fine (although a speed bump is long overdue). They just need to update the 15" ASAP.

[slightlyoff]

Originally posted by MhzDoesMatter
I've seen a G4, a 550 Mhz G4 in a Titanium PowerBook. And if a G4 with twice the clock speed can do twice as much as this one, then screw the G5. That's all I need in a portable. That's all almost anyone needs in a portable.

Find a better way to measure your genitals than with a computer.

Hertz, didn't anyone tell you that rational thought and objective decision making based on real-life personal criteria aren't allowed in these forums?

Hrm...someone needs to forward you the memo ;-)

[OlorintheJedi]

Are we sure Steve really said 2003 was the "year of the laptop" at MWSF? Maybe what he really meant was "it will be a year till there's new laptops".

For what it's worth, I'm waiting for a G5 PowerBook to upgrade. If it takes a year, so be it. I can live with my G4 500 until then.

G5 PB -> I buy one
No G5 BP -> I don't buy one

Genital measurement or not, I doubt I'm alone.

[u2mr2os2]

The G5 is the chip many PC users will take note of as being worthy to even consider switching as it is what has caught up with Intel - not the G4. Nevermind for most tasks, a good G4 may be fine - the marketing reality is the G5 is the switcher chip.

So, keeping it as the exclusive top end chip is not going to collect many switchers. The laptop scene is not bad given Intel's blunder with Centrino. In other words, the G4 can still work for the "Pro" laptop for a while given that no one expects the laptop to equal the desktop performance. The coming G4s from Moto look to fit the bill of some speed improvement without frying laps.

What has to change is the stupid product pecking order where the iMac has to be slower than any PowerBook. The iMac is a switcher machine. Keeping it behind the PowerBooks AND the PowerMacs is to keep it from being attractive to switchers unless it gets cheaper.

So, with the G5 not going into a laptop anytime soon, do switchers have to wait forever for the pro laptops to get G5s before the iMac gets an increase?

[Roller]

Like many others, I'm in the market for a new PB (my Lombard is really showing its age - LOL).

The 17" isn't a laptop to me. I'd consider it only if I wanted one Mac to use on the desktop and on the road (and only if I could fly first class every time). The 12" is a bit too small and slow for my needs.

That leaves the 15", which should be Apple's mainstream PB. But I'm not about to buy one until it gets a serious update. I can live without a 970, but a 1.X GHz G4 would be a requirement.

I wonder what Apple's PB unit sales are these days. They can't be selling too many 17" models, and the 12" is probably selling OK, but not great.

[hacurio1]

Originally posted by nydoofus
Now... what if they advertise 7 hours of battery life? =)

Then I'll buy one!:cool:

[slightlyoff]

Originally posted by u2mr2os2
The laptop scene is not bad given Intel's blunder with Centrino.

What makes you think it's a blunder? The fact of the matter is that ratcheting up the core clock speed without the attendant infrastructure (e.g., more cache, faster buses, faster disk, etc...) is just a way to build a very expensive lap warmer. Centrino isn't a mistake, it's Intel giving their customers what they want: laptops that have the battery life of a Mac without having to ditch their OS (in my case, Linux and OpenBSD). For a long time, a Mac was they only way to get real portability out of your portable, and it was good for Apple's business. Now there is broad parity again, leaving the market to sort itself out based on other criteria.

Intel didn't make a mistake, but they made a choice they were forced into (and one I'm sure their engineers were only to glad to finally be able to exercise). Calling Centrino a blunder demonstrates a fundamental missunderstanding of the requirements of most people in the market for laptops (not just Apple laptops).

[Apple //e]

Originally posted by slightlyoff
[B]Oh boy...here we go.

"Centrino" is a marketing name and Trademark registered by Intel for the express purpose of getting OEM's and VAR's to purchase both the Pentium 3M and their 802.11b chipset. There is no "Centrino" chip, as such. There _is_ however a set of WiFi and CPU combinations which may be certified to carry the "Centrino" brand name.

That said, only the Pentium3M is currently available under the Centrino name (NOT the P4M). The P3M takes many of the same design routes that allow the G4 to have anything like acceptable performance (big local cache, etc..) despite the accompanying ****ty IO subsystems of laptops and the need to clock mobile chips lower so they don't char your legs.

]

actually, its the pentium M, not p3m or p4m, just m. confusing? very much so to the average consumer.

[kikimus]

Centrino is not a blunder. The only issue is that Intel now has to justify a lower clocked processor as being superior to a higher clocked one. Intel is not putting these things in desktops. Benchmarks comparing the "m" processor to neutered laptop 4-M show that it indeed outperforms it.

Laptop buyers are not the speed-freak testosterone driven types that watch the Mhz as closely as desktop gamers. This holds true for Intel as well as Mac. I would also say this is one thing that has kept Apple in business with the Powerbooks. Battery life and acceptable performance is paramount, and the "m" processors do provide this.

I love my Mac, but lets not dilude ourselves here. Intel is a long way off from ever having to worry about feeling the hot breath of Apple on the back of their neck. Microsoft is the one that has to worry, as they have it coming at them from all sides.

[GetSome681]

Originally posted by MattG
I agree. As a 1+ year Mac user, that's probably the thing that frustrates me the most (well, that and the lack of an eject button on the CD-ROM drives, but that's a whole other thread). I buy something, and then six months later it's obsolete, and there's NOTHING I can do to it. At least with my PC, I can rip out the processor and stick a new one in there.

yeah buddy...b/c you can EASILY just take the processor out of your PC LAPTOP and just stick in a new one. we're talking laptops here, not desktops (the PMacs can be upgraded, although it's expensive)

[GetSome681]

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Its pretty simple. I won't be a “switcher” until the PowerBook has a G5. If that takes 6 month, a year, a decade I'll wait. I'm more then happy to stick with my Dell Latitude until then.
I think Apple is going to keep people from converting simply because of the speed difference of the G4 vs the G5. They have hyped up (OK hype might not be the right word.) the G5 so high that people’s expectations are that a G5 in a PowerBook is the next natural step. Anything less is going to put people off and possibly make them wait. I think PowerBook sales are going to suffer until a G5 shows up. IMHO of course.

wait, it's the next natural step? omg no way man! maybe you should email and call apple and tell them.

dude, if you think apple doesn't know this, well then...i'll refrain from calling you names...but come on, of course they know this. They will release the G5 PowerBook in due time and when it's ready. Holding off on it does nothing but hurt them, and they know that.

[the_wallcrawler]

I don't know about everyone else but the reason I will use a Mac for the rest of my life is the OS. A lot of people here seem so concerned about speeds that some are considering "switching" to the other side. Any speed improvements you are going to see from buying a PC over say an aging, year old 1ghz tibook are going to be vastly overshadowed by all the extra pain that will be caused by the windows OS. Just my opinion but I would rather wait 3 more seconds for my photoshop effect to render on my tibook than deal with a PC. Now having said that, yes, Apple needs to do something about the Powerbooks. They are in need of an update. G5? Not for a long, long time.

[novicegeek]

Originally posted by OlorintheJedi
Are we sure Steve really said 2003 was the "year of the laptop" at MWSF? Maybe what he really meant was "it will be a year till there's new laptops".

For what it's worth, I'm waiting for a G5 PowerBook to upgrade. If it takes a year, so be it. I can live with my G4 500 until then.

G5 PB -> I buy one
No G5 BP -> I don't buy one

Genital measurement or not, I doubt I'm alone. [/QUOTE]


I'm one of the many people on this board who seems to have bought a revision A Powerbook G4 in early 2001 (400 Mhz, 10gb harddrive) thinking at the time that it was "perfectly fine" (a term I see used frequently on this board by saner people who are getting tired of this silly whining about a need for speed that almost no one needs on a home computer.) If I were to upgrade to one of the current powerbooks, I'd probably be just fine for a long long time, but it's still a bad proposition to have to make when you've already bought one of these things, only to find out fairly quickly that you were in need of more memory, more disk space, a CD Burner, OS X, Airport Extreme, ie a new machine, once. And should I upgrade now, I don't even get a new design on the model or a new chip. No fun.

[wizard]

I don't think of it as getting hot and bothered over the processor, what I think we are seeing here it the rather slow rate of performance increase year on year upsetting people.

What is interesting is that a new G4 with an enhanced cache, faster front side bus and a 30% increase in cycle rate has a reasonable chance of comig very close to the G5 as far as integer performance goes. For got the site, but some one normalized g4 integer performance at 100, the g5 managed 170. Now I have no idea how the scale was set up and bench marks are bench marks but this does indicate that we could see a rather impressive performance boost in a laptop using these new G4. They probally won't exceed the G5 by any means but might come closer than some may expect.

So yeah I can see why someone would want to know what is going in the next laptop rev. The potential is for a significant boost in performance. That is worth waiting for.

Dave



Originally posted by StuPid QPid
Fair enough, but it doesn't mean they can't be equal, as is the case at the moment with the 1 GHz. Admittedly the 17" has a few more bells and whistles (e.g. airport extreme, FW800, Bluetooth built-in etc.)

My guess is they'll update the whole line with the new G4 (MPC7457) with a 1 GHz in the 12", 1Ghz and 1.3 GhZ in the 15.4" and 1.3 GhZ in the 17" - For me that's a nice line up, very tempting...but when????

Anyway why does everyone get so hot and bothered about what type of processor is in their machine? As long as it runs fast, and runs the apps I want e.g. Mac OS X and the iApps of course, then what's the problem. All Macs are at the end of the day are a box to run Mac OS X. What I don't like is buying a Mac, then seeing it updated two weeks later...

[weev]

Originally posted by moosecat
I'm going to give in to the little devil on my shoulder and buy a 12". If it's going to be July, I'll surrender to the little angel on my shoulder and wait it out.

I like the 12" too BUT it does not support Apple flat screen displays (no ADC or DVI) -- this puzzles me greatly because is not the ultimate system a sub-notenook that can run your 20" display -- is that not the best of both worlds (and a way to sell two premium price tagged items)!?

From my rumour research (and yes, we down under spell rumour this way), we could get a 12" with ADC capability in the update. Add 1Ghz+ speed, faster bus and better video card and I am there!

And BTW, that 'Year of the Laptop' guff was a way to deflect attention away from the ordinary G4 towers.

Now it should be: YEAR OF THE KICKASS DESKTOP :p

[Eric-C]

Originally posted by the_wallcrawler
I don't know about everyone else but the reason I will use a Mac for the rest of my life is the OS. A lot of people here seem so concerned about speeds that some are considering "switching" to the other side. Any speed improvements you are going to see from buying a PC over say an aging, year old 1ghz tibook are going to be vastly overshadowed by all the extra pain that will be caused by the windows OS. Just my opinion but I would rather wait 3 more seconds for my photoshop effect to render on my tibook than deal with a PC. Now having said that, yes, Apple needs to do something about the Powerbooks. They are in need of an update. G5? Not for a long, long time.

Actually, I'm more excited about switching because of Panther than a G5. However, I don't think it's very logical to use Panther on, say, a TiBook, simply because Apple has the privilege to design an OS for specific hardware. Consequently, Panther will run best on the technology that is built with Panther in mind.

That said, I really hope something happens soon.

[wizard]

My geuss is that Apple is waiting on ATI to get their next generation mobile chip on the market.

They may also be debugging the chip set for the new processor. If you have a new frontside bus your going to need a new support chip. But I'm still leaning towards the ATI chip as the problem. In other words it hasn't seen the light of day on a PC compatable either.

Dave


Originally posted by kikimus
My guess is that Apple has a bit of inventory in the 12" and 17" powerbooks to be making any overnight changes. Not sure if anyone can comment on how this type of thing went down in the past.... ie a bump in speed / bus overnight on a (relatively) new line. Apple has been pretty cautious about not doing an Atari and having to firesale their old inventory.

My last discussion with an Apple rep (for what it's worth), the 15" Ti model was not selling too well. Most people were going for the 12" for the AL case and minor *cough* improvements (most are prolly unaware of L3 cache issues). If the new G4 is pin compatible with the old one, what in hell is holding up the 15" update (case, video, superdrive speed, etc...) if they are just going to switch processors. If they are coming and the Ti sales are sluggish, Apple should announce that they "are on the way" true, they may cause some people to not buy the 12" and wait for the 15", but you might also cause some people like myself who are ready to "Switch" to Wintel to hold on to hope.

Say what you want about how great the G4 is supposed to be, but it blows me away how Apple can pull off lowering the processor speed on a two year old G4 chip (from 1ghz to 867), kill the L3 cache, neuter the video and the RAM expandability and market it as part of the "Year of the Laptop". The 17" other than having a damn big screen is not a portable IMO. I am not argueing that the G4 is not a good processer, but I'm getting tired of waiting for a "revised" 15" and my eyes are starting to roam (as I suspect many are) to Wintel machines (which I will promptly run SuSE 8.2 on).

IMHO I don't think Apple really has a mass appeal laptop right now. You can point to the sales records for the 12". These are mainly the people updating from the G3's or older G4's. Sure the old 15" is not a bad alternative, but the sales pitch of "Welcome to the Apple Store, would you like to buy a 2 and a half year old laptop, with outdated video, a slower superdrive, and no airport extreme" is lost on me.

[wizard]

Last I new Panther was for all g3 and g4 machines also.

The issue with most apple computers these days and any version of OS/x is that they ship the machines with far to little memory. I got sundays CompUSA flier and they are advertising the "new" g3 I book with 128MB of ram. Lets face it thats a little thin for any Unix like operating system, its extremely thing for the uses that most Mac hardware is applied to.

The G5 seem to demonstrate this failing with Apple rather well.

Dave

Originally posted by Eric-C
Actually, I'm more excited about switching because of Panther than a G5. However, I don't think it's very logical to use Panther on, say, a TiBook, simply because Apple has the privilege to design an OS for specific hardware. Consequently, Panther will run best on the technology that is built with Panther in mind.

That said, I really hope something happens soon.

[Eric-C]

Originally posted by wizard
Last I new Panther was for all g3 and g4 machines also.


My point was that new hardware would probably be more suited to use a new OS. After all, with such a large amount of clock speed available in the G5 PM, it is inevitable that Panther will take advange of it so *some* degree. Since the 15" will most likely be released with Panther, it will give Apple the opportunity to test it out. They is no way they could sell it if it didn't work. However, the older models were designed with Jaguar in mind. If for some reason (and I'm not saying there is) Panther does not work on the older models, adjustments may have to be created on the upgrade version, most likely limiting some features.

POINT:

new 15" specs > old 15" specs (hopefully)

Panther performance on new specs > Panther performance on old specs (most likely)

Therefore,

Panther performance on new 15" > Panther performance on old 15"

That's all. I didn't mean to imply that Panther would not work on older models.

[the_wallcrawler]

Originally posted by wizard
Last I new Panther was for all g3 and g4 machines also.

The issue with most apple computers these days and any version of OS/x is that they ship the machines with far to little memory. I got sundays CompUSA flier and they are advertising the "new" g3 I book with 128MB of ram. Lets face it thats a little thin for any Unix like operating system, its extremely thing for the uses that most Mac hardware is applied to.

The G5 seem to demonstrate this failing with Apple rather well.

Dave

i totally agree. isn't 256 the recomended min for running jaguar?

[MattG]

Originally posted by GetSome681
yeah buddy...b/c you can EASILY just take the processor out of your PC LAPTOP and just stick in a new one. we're talking laptops here, not desktops (the PMacs can be upgraded, although it's expensive)

I meant Apples in general, not just laptops.

[isgoed]

You are all whining that the 15" does not have bluetooth, FW800, AP-extreme, but are you gonna use all those gadgets? Probably not even once a month. The 15" is an excellent system and personally I think Titanium sounds much cooler than Aluminium. I aggree that it can be pretty frustrating if the 15" were to get updated right after you bought one.

I have a 550mhz PB for over a year now and I am planning to use it for years to come.

[OlorintheJedi]

Originally posted by novicegeek

I'm one of the many people on this board who seems to have bought a revision A Powerbook G4 in early 2001 (400 Mhz, 10gb harddrive) thinking at the time that it was "perfectly fine" (a term I see used frequently on this board by saner people who are getting tired of this silly whining about a need for speed that almost no one needs on a home computer.) If I were to upgrade to one of the current powerbooks, I'd probably be just fine for a long long time, but it's still a bad proposition to have to make when you've already bought one of these things, only to find out fairly quickly that you were in need of more memory, more disk space, a CD Burner, OS X, Airport Extreme, ie a new machine, once. And should I upgrade now, I don't even get a new design on the model or a new chip. No fun.

I agree.

What I really want is a 50 GHz 990-based PB (15", but with an OLED screen that expands variably up to 20"), fuel cell powered, etc., etc. And I want it now. And for <$2K. But that might be a bit unrealistic, so I'm willing to "settle" for a G5 PB instead.

I bought my Rev A 500Mhz TiBook with 512MB RAM and a 30GB hard disk in January 2001. I new it would be changed soon. I new I was settling for no updated graphics card (Mobility Rage 128 with 8MB VDRAM), no DVD/CD-RW, and the old 100Mhz system bus. But I chose not to wait because I needed to upgrade (I was actually still using an old NeXT cube with a 68040 at the time!), needed a laptop, and, most importantly, had expense funds to buy the laptop which would expire before it was revised.

And it's been great. Never had a problem with it, despite the fact that it's been dropped 3 feet onto concrete (post 9/11, when I had to take it out at an airport security check, and someone behind me bumped me and knocked it out of my hands). The case is cracked, the battery will fall out if it's not taped, the DVD slot is cracked, and the airport antenna sticks out half an inch. And it works like a charm.

Now I don't have airport extreme, no superdrive, no ability to take advantage of Quartz, etc. And I can live just fine that way.

Do I want to upgrade? Sure.

Would one of the current TiBooks or AlBooks be a big step up from what I have? Sure.

Would whatever comes out next be a great machine, regardless of the chip in it? Sure.

But at this point I'm going to wait for a fully updated product line. It's not so much the chip as the overall architecture and design.

Obviously, the folks at Apple know just how much people want this. They're not stupid. If they could announce a G5 PB tomorrow, they would. The lack of it creates a major marketing headache for them.

It may take 6 months, or even longer. If I needed something better urgently, I would upgrade without hesitation. But as it is, I'll wait.

[JW Pepper]

Well I don't think current machines are partically slow they just FEEL slow.

According to test emenating from WWDC it seems that installing Panther on CURRENT machines will result in a hughly faster finder and that the impression of slowness dissapears. Couple that with say a 7457 with a longer batter life and faster bus and clock rate, and it would result in a very attractive MOBILE package.

Of corse a G5 would be fantasitc, but we will just have to wait for that, althought I am not sure one needs that amount of power on the move.

[wizard]

Now i understand what you are saying. But the reality is that Apple in the G5 is selling machines that will need upgrading to fully take advantage of Panther or even Jaquare for that matter. The G5's are really short on memory (both RAM and video) to take advantage of OS/X.

Apple laptop line, both the powerbook and the ibook suffer from the smae issue. This has always been a chronic problem with Apple. So you can fully expect that any laptop Apple introduces will not be optimal for use with OS/x. Considering OS/X and the state of the art in electronics the fact that Apple still sells laptops with 128 MB of ram is a bit pathetic.

I geuss it comes down to not expectin Apple to sell you out of the box a Laptop that is a good value.

Dave


Originally posted by Eric-C
My point was that new hardware would probably be more suited to use a new OS. After all, with such a large amount of clock speed available in the G5 PM, it is inevitable that Panther will take advange of it so *some* degree. Since the 15" will most likely be released with Panther, it will give Apple the opportunity to test it out. They is no way they could sell it if it didn't work. However, the older models were designed with Jaguar in mind. If for some reason (and I'm not saying there is) Panther does not work on the older models, adjustments may have to be created on the upgrade version, most likely limiting some features.

POINT:

new 15" specs > old 15" specs (hopefully)

Panther performance on new specs > Panther performance on old specs (most likely)

Therefore,

Panther performance on new 15" > Panther performance on old 15"

That's all. I didn't mean to imply that Panther would not work on older models.

[rjstanford]

Originally posted by the_wallcrawler
Any speed improvements you are going to see from buying a PC over say an aging, year old 1ghz tibook are going to be vastly overshadowed by all the extra pain that will be caused by the windows OS. Depends on what you do. If you do a lot of artistic work (and your billing fixed-price so your income goes down as your time goes up), it matters. If you're a developer (like me) working on large projects with 30-60 minute (or more) build times, it matters.

Does it matter to someone reading email or doing word processing? No, not really. That's what the iBook is for -- non "pro" users. We're talking about the PowerBook, ie, the "pro" machine, for people where the extra speed can make a difference.

Knowing that the 2.0ghz G5s can spin down to 1.3ghz makes me wonder about the ability in the 1.2ghz chips. This would imply at least some form of power saving capability (at a whole-chip level if not more granular). And don't forget that a 1.2ghz G5 is still expected to SPEC out at somewhere over a twice a 1.0ghz G4, so its not like we'd need the ultra-speeds that have been mentioned elsewhere in this thread.

Personally, for me, a 12" PowerBook would be a great companion laptop. I can even get used to the resolution (although I'd prefer a few more PPI). Its just too slow for me to do real work on, other than taking it to meetings as a glorified PDA. This has more to do with the nature of the work I do, not the machine itself, but again its supposed to be the "Pro" line. Having said that, put the expected 1.3ghz 7457 into the current 12" shell, don't take out any cache, jump me up to 64mb of graphics ram, ideally let me swap out both memory chips to give me 1GB not just 640mb, and I'm a very happy camper right now.

And I'd pay pretty well for it too. Ah, well.

-Richard

[erova]

Originally posted by isgoed
You are all whining that the 15" does not have bluetooth, FW800, AP-extreme, but are you gonna use all those gadgets? Probably not even once a month. The 15" is an excellent system and personally I think Titanium sounds much cooler than Aluminium. I aggree that it can be pretty frustrating if the 15" were to get updated right after you bought one.

I have a 550mhz PB for over a year now and I am planning to use it for years to come.

huh? maybe not the firewire 800, but I have a bluetooth cell phone and tungten T that sure would like to talk to a powerbook.

and i'd use the wireless networking every day just like i surf the web everyday...

i don't really think these are gadgets--i think they're real, necessary components...

[nazariteguitar]

I am currently a Windows user and have had a growing obsession with the Mac and all the different things that they come up with.I know the G4 is not that bad of a chip, but the G5's new 65 bit architecture will keep the notebook compatible for much longer. I am going to college for 3D animation. This requires a very fast machine. The G5 would fit the bill soooo well.

I know I am foolish to believe that the G5 could go into a notebook this early, but why didn,t apple develope a scaled down version of the G5 for the Powerbook since it is SUPPOSED to be a pro notebook) and bring them to the consumer around the same time.

I NEEEEEDD more power!!!!



-------------------------
Biggest mystery in life: where is the 15" alPowerbook?

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by nydoofus
Now... what if they advertise 7 hours of battery life? =)

Hmmm. Interesting. I'm more of a performance man myself. Battery life is all well and fine but if I get a 17" laptop I'm looking at using it as a desktop replacement which means I'd favor a faster system over batter life. But as always to each their own. Some what battery life over system speed. *shrugs*

[iLilana]

Originally posted by Cobra Commander
As far as I know there is no Centrino chip. Centrino refers to the wireless technology on the laptop but it still runs off of a Pentium 4 M chip. It almost seems like Intel is trying to hide that by in some of the ads...

A PB G4 1.3 GHz w/ DDR 400 would make an excellent portable.


ACTUALLy...:rolleyes:

the centrino is chip technology as well. The p4m chip was redesigned from the ground up to accomodate a laptop with a chipset that was designed from the ground up. It's whole architecture makes the origional p4m look quite laughable. I just saw the difference today. Impressive actually. It would make a wonderful linux to go system. They never hid anything. intel did good with the centrino. Who'd a thunk it....

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by GetSome681
yeah buddy...b/c you can EASILY just take the processor out of your PC LAPTOP and just stick in a new one. we're talking laptops here, not desktops (the PMacs can be upgraded, although it's expensive)

Not true!!! I upgraded my Dell Latitude CSx from 500Mhz to 1Ghz simply by buying a CPU off an auction site. Install was a breeze. Snap off the cover between the keyboard and display. Remove the 2 screws for the keyboard. Unplug the strip that goes from the keyboard to the mobo. Remove the 7 screws holding the heatsink in place. (Big mofo by the way.) turn the little screw that holds the CPU in place. Pull the CPU out of the ZIF socket. Install the 1Ghz. Reverse the previous instructions and boot up. Had an initial error in the BIOS. And the BIOS isn't detecting the CPU correctly at this point but running benchmarks did indeed show that the system was running in the 1Ghz range. All told it took me 15 minutes to install it and I've NEVER torn apart a laptop in my life. On the other hand there are manufacturers that solder in the CPU THAT is a bit more tricky. ;)

Its do-able Not easy but do-able.

[crees!]

Originally posted by beefcake
If the new 1.3 Ghz PB's are available before August, I'll buy one.

Ditto on that. The sooner the better! I've been waiting to switch for 6 months too. You would think that if Apple knew they had all these switches waiting and raring to go they would get the product lines to kick it up a notch.

[jbomber]

Originally posted by erova
huh? maybe not the firewire 800, but I have a bluetooth cell phone and tungten T that sure would like to talk to a powerbook.

and i'd use the wireless networking every day just like i surf the web everyday...

i don't really think these are gadgets--i think they're real, necessary components...

Agreed. Anyone who takes the time to set up their machine and peripherals knows that once they're a part of your system, it gets pretty hard to go back. My T-68 and airport are incredibly valuable parts of my set-up.

[crees!]

Originally posted by tizza
I'm just hanging out to get my 12'' PB but this could make me hold out for another few months if we do get the new G4's!!!!

As everyone else has been saying too, I seriously can't see G5's going into PB's for a long time because of heat issues. You can't just turn a new desktop processor into a laptop processor overnight.

Heat is not the main issue concerning the G5 in a Powerbook. IBM has a scaled back 1.2Ghz G5 that runs cool enough for the PB. It's the fact the G5 doesn't have the power management needed to preserve battery life. So currently battery life sucks with G5's in PB's. Get over the heat issue.

[herocero]

anyone else notice:
1) no VR gallery of the 15" anymore?
2) for the last 4 dayz haven't been able to find a usb 1.1 hub on the apple store?

this motorola spec sheet was just posted yesterday
http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC7457&nodeId=01
note a scaled down 7457 at 1GHz has a 1.0V rating (12" anyone?)

get a move on apple, how long has the 15" been sitting idle? update the whole line, if it is posted on moto site, it is available to OEMs (or should be VERY soon), and throw in usb 2.0 (with the appropiate belkin hub)

i swear to god i will buy another dell here pretty soon, and then i will cry

[rjstanford]

Originally posted by herocero this motorola spec sheet was just posted yesterday
http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC7457&nodeId=01
note a scaled down 7457 at 1GHz has a 1.0V rating (12" anyone?)[/B] One thing that I hadn't noticed was that the 7457 doubles the L2 cache to 512K (nice). Not that many noteworthy differences otherwise. Its also interesting that the PDF documentation (MPC7457EC.pdf (http://e-www.motorola.com/brdata/PDFDB/docs/MPC7457EC.pdf)) still shows the chip as running at 15.8W (1ghz), 18.7W (1.3ghz). Weird.

Oh, well. Here's hoping for a reasonable chip and a good resolution (ie: something not available 3 years ago) on the 15" ... and soon.

They really are deemphasizing the 15" on the website, that's true (still ships same day). Nothing on the refurb site (often used to dump excess inventory at a discount) though -- in fact, the whole refurb site is currently unavailable. That's a little weird, no?

-Richard

[jbomber]

Originally posted by herocero


i swear to god i will buy another dell here pretty soon, and then i will cry


hehehehehe. it sounds like i'm not the only one in need of an intervention... :)

[chicagdan]

Originally posted by rjstanford

Personally, for me, a 12" PowerBook would be a great companion laptop. I can even get used to the resolution (although I'd prefer a few more PPI). Its just too slow for me to do real work on, other than taking it to meetings as a glorified PDA. This has more to do with the nature of the work I do, not the machine itself, but again its supposed to be the "Pro" line. Having said that, put the expected 1.3ghz 7457 into the current 12" shell, don't take out any cache, jump me up to 64mb of graphics ram, ideally let me swap out both memory chips to give me 1GB not just 640mb, and I'm a very happy camper right now.

-Richard

The low power consumption of the 7457 chip is going to be a godsend for the 12" PB, not only because of the speed but also because of the heat and battery life. Personally, I don't care about the warmth of the machine but it turns a lot of people off ... and I would like the battery to last a bit longer. The new processor should fix the only three quibbles about the 12", otherwise I think the machine is perfect.

[jbomber]

Originally posted by rjstanford
Nothing on the refurb site (often used to dump excess inventory at a discount) though -- in fact, the whole refurb site is currently unavailable. That's a little weird, no?

-Richard

they always 'hide' the refurb site whenever a new product hits the market. don't want people looking at the cheap stuff when they could be shelling out more cash for the new and improved stuff.

[rjstanford]

Originally posted by chicagdan
The low power consumption of the 7457 chip is going to be a godsend for the 12" PB, not only because of the speed but also because of the heat and battery life. Personally, I don't care about the warmth of the machine but it turns a lot of people off ... and I would like the battery to last a bit longer. The new processor should fix the only three quibbles about the 12", otherwise I think the machine is perfect. I recently gave a 12" PB to my future in-laws for a generic 'round-the-house computer. It gets warm, but not from the processor -- when installing a lot of software, the harddrive (which is located under the left-side palm rest) becomes quite warm. Not uncomfortable, but very noticable. Under normal use, its not an issue.http://www.kodawarisan.com/ug/PowerBook/pbg4/pbg4_016.jpg http://www.kodawarisan.com/ug/PowerBook/pbg4/pbg4_019.jpg-Richard

[chicagdan]

So it was the harddrive after all ... great picture. Funny that the entire lower right side of the laptop is empty ... I figured a computer that small would take up every inch of space.

[DrGonzo]

Originally posted by nazariteguitar
I am currently a Windows user and have had a growing obsession with the Mac and all the different things that they come up with.I know the G4 is not that bad of a chip, but the G5's new 65 bit architecture will keep the notebook compatible for much longer. I am going to college for 3D animation. This requires a very fast machine. The G5 would fit the bill soooo well.

I know I am foolish to believe that the G5 could go into a notebook this early, but why didn,t apple develope a scaled down version of the G5 for the Powerbook since it is SUPPOSED to be a pro notebook) and bring them to the consumer around the same time.

I NEEEEEDD more power!!!!


Uhhh, personally, i would much MUCH rather have a dualie 2.0ghz G5 machine than any laptop out there PC or Mac (Assuming my main emphasis is 3d animation). I would get that decked out with a lot of ram and then buy a 12" PB or even iBook for basic stuff. Because personally, i wouldn't want my notebook tied up rendering stuff all night/day long, and i would want a much larger screen/higher res than anything the 15" or 17" will possibly offer in the next year or two (though an external display can always be used). The G5 does fit the bill, though not in a laptop for 3d animation.

[wizard]

Iti is rather obvious why Apple doesn't have a strip down version of the G5 for the powerbook, the processor leaves alot to be desired. If they where to strip out one of the FPU or modify the Alt-vec unit the processor would not do well at all - in simply does not have the integer performance.

Now stuffing a full power unit into a laptop is another story. But it is not a question of power usage just for the chip, you have to take into account the support hardware also.

While we will all have to wait and see I believe that apple will get very close to the performance level of the G5 with an enhanced G4. If a G4 can be delivered with an enhanced I/O bus, a larger cache and few more MHz/watt than they have the potential for a very nice upgrade to the powerbook. Having all of this come together is the big question.

Thanks
Dave


Originally posted by nazariteguitar
I am currently a Windows user and have had a growing obsession with the Mac and all the different things that they come up with.I know the G4 is not that bad of a chip, but the G5's new 65 bit architecture will keep the notebook compatible for much longer. I am going to college for 3D animation. This requires a very fast machine. The G5 would fit the bill soooo well.

I know I am foolish to believe that the G5 could go into a notebook this early, but why didn,t apple develope a scaled down version of the G5 for the Powerbook since it is SUPPOSED to be a pro notebook) and bring them to the consumer around the same time.

I NEEEEEDD more power!!!!



-------------------------
Biggest mystery in life: where is the 15" alPowerbook?

[hacurio1]

Originally posted by chicagdan
So it was the harddrive after all ... great picture. Funny that the entire lower right side of the laptop is empty ... I figured a computer that small would take up every inch of space.

It's not empty, It's fot the battery.

[primalman]

Originally posted by chicagdan
So it was the harddrive after all ... great picture. Funny that the entire lower right side of the laptop is empty ... I figured a computer that small would take up every inch of space.

Battery.

[chicagdan]

Originally posted by hacurio1
It's not empty, It's fot the battery.

Of course, stupid me.

[chicagdan]

I know I am foolish to believe that the G5 could go into a notebook this early, but why didn,t apple develope a scaled down version of the G5 for the Powerbook since it is SUPPOSED to be a pro notebook) and bring them to the consumer around the same time.



God, this is exhausting ... for the millionth time, Apple does not develop microprocessors. Neither does Dell nor HP nor Sony. I'm sure Apple could have asked IBM to work on G5s concurrently for desktops and laptops, but in that case neither of them would be ready now and you'd be bitching about that instead. Seems to me Apple tasked IBM to desktops and Moto to laptops ... and you'll be hearing the second part of the news very soon.

[wirewyrm]

Originally posted by MattG

At least with my PC, I can rip out the processor and stick a new one in there.

Yup, In theory you can. This is the reason i didn't buy another iMac.... upgradability. But, having upgraded my P3 450 alongside my PM G4 400, The PC is about twice as much money to maintain. I've had both about 3-4 years. In that time the Mac has...... 512mb extra RAM, 60GB HDD, and Toshiba SDR1102 combo drive. It Runs Mac OS X 10.2.6, Photoshop 7, Office v.X and Safari, iTunes etc......
No components have ever failed.

The PC is now an AthlonXP 1700+ w/256mb Ram, DVD Player & CD Writer and 60GB HDD.

The P3 450 Processor died two years ago and was replaced by a P3 800.

The onboard sound on the otherboard was not compatible with XP, and the onboard graphics card went 6 months ago. The nearest equivalent was a socket A board and an Athlon 1700+ for £200 (about $150) on special offer with cooling. Adding on a creative soundcard 4.1 (£30) and graphics card (radeon 7000 32mb) £50.

Both got treadted to a MS Intellimouse explorer (Hey even machines deserve Xmas presents!)

4 years ago, both cost around £1500 with 17" monitor. The PC has cost me a further £400, just for the privilege of running the latest OS (XP) and still has 256mb Ram and 16.8 Gb HDD

It has also been away for two weeks to have the original processor changed (that was free under guarantee)

The Mac Has cost £400 pounds extra, Has more memory and HDD, is slower though, but has also never left my Desk. OSX is compatible with it, and no xtra drivers or new parts were needed to allow me to stay up to date, and none were repaired.

[maxvamp]

The PC is about twice as much money to maintain.

AMEN!!!!

PCs like to eventually burn up, usually within a couple of years. This is now a concern I have about the G5.

In my case, I have solved the extreme heat problem, but now I need to change the processor coolent every 300,000,000 cycles....

Max

[VladDracul]

Keeping in mind this whole thread, is it a good idea to buy the 17" Notebook now?

I can buy it for US$2850 right now, but this thread has given me strong doubts...

[MacBoyX]

Originally posted by MattG
I agree. As a 1+ year Mac user, that's probably the thing that frustrates me the most (well, that and the lack of an eject button on the CD-ROM drives, but that's a whole other thread). I buy something, and then six months later it's obsolete, and there's NOTHING I can do to it. At least with my PC, I can rip out the processor and stick a new one in there.


PLEASE! Obsolete? Does it run OS X? All your apps?

Why do we always have to think that just because something is improved on, it's immediately obsolete?

Also you can upgrade your processor in the PowerMac.

And I'd rather use an Obsolete Mac than a brand new POS Windows Machine.

I'll bet money even tho your Mac is "obsolete" it gets more of a work out than your PC.

MacBoyX

[erova]

hell, macs' resale value is great too, so if you really think your machine is obsolete you'll get better return than a pc anyday...

[favpseudonym]

is this a 12" powerbook? I have one, and the al powerbook in this pic on the airport extreme homepage [http://www.apple.com/airport/hotspots.html
looks way bigger than mine, but its definitely not a 17"
if you look closely at the picture, it appears that the power, ethernet, and 56k are not where they should be-on the users left side, close to the hinge.

[favpseudonym]

i definitely agree erova, i just sold my 800 mhz Ti to a student for 1700-i bought it for 2200.

[erova]

that's not bad at all...

i just unloaded my Ti500 for a grand (probably coulda picked up more for it on eBay but it was for a friend)...not bad for a two and half year old machine, if you ask me...

[BigJayhawk]

Yep, I got a GREAT Educational Deal from Apple when they were trying to CLOSE OUT the Mac Cubes anyway. ($800 NEW).

Now you can still find them all the time on eBay for AS MUCH OR MORE than I payed YEARS AGO.

Try that with a PeeCee!!!

[BigJayhawk]

Oh, and add to that the fact that Apple replaced the case to my TiBook under warranty (due to the paint flaking) and I am happy with my G4 Powerbook for quite a while!

It's still SO MUCH faster than all of the PeeCees at work that it's not even funny. Not to mention that I end up being the one that fixes the PeeCee crashes anyway! heh

[cb911]

Originally posted by favpseudonym
is this a 12" powerbook? I have one, and the al powerbook in this pic on the airport extreme homepage [http://www.apple.com/airport/hotspots.html
looks way bigger than mine, but its definitely not a 17"
if you look closely at the picture, it appears that the power, ethernet, and 56k are not where they should be-on the users left side, close to the hinge.

i'm not sure about this, but could it be a iBook?

edit>> i just had a look at the iBook on Apple's site. to me it looks like a 12" in the pic on the airport page.

goto apple.com/ibook. the pic on that page showing the combo drive, with the screen 1/2 closed looks sort of metalic like the pic on the airport page.

[favpseudonym]

but what about the missing ethernet and 56k? also-on the airport extreme hotspots page, you can actually see the antenna that is on the new al pb's, but not the ethernet and 56k. In that photograph, i would imagine that those two ports would be more prominent than the antenna.

[reflex]

Originally posted by kikimus
I think it is an embarrasment that they have the old 15" sitting on the website between the 2 new powerbooks, it ought to be on the "bargains" page.

I personally prefer the TiBook to the new 12" and 17" aluminium cases. Maybe it's just cause I've always wanted one...

[reflex]

Originally posted by favpseudonym
is this a 12" powerbook? I have one, and the al powerbook in this pic on the airport extreme homepage [http://www.apple.com/airport/hotspots.html
looks way bigger than mine, but its definitely not a 17"
if you look closely at the picture, it appears that the power, ethernet, and 56k are not where they should be-on the users left side, close to the hinge.

Interesting... the side doesn't really look like an iBook or a 12" PB. On the other hand, it is a bit unclear. So I doubt this is the new 15" PB.

[rjwill246]

Originally posted by MacBoyX

Why do we always have to think that just because something is improved on, it's immediately obsolete?

Agreed. By the definition of obsolete as is used here by many, then the PCs are obsoleted at a faster rate than Macs, since the "improvements" usually come at a much faster pace. As far as upgrading goes, I have upgraded my tower from 867MHz G4 to dual 1.2 Gig G4s... wasn't hard.

In any case, THIS is what "obsolete" means... the incorrect use, evidenced in these threads, is all in the mind!

From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913):

Obsolete \Ob"so*lete\, a. [L. obsoletus, p. p. of obsolescere.
See Obsolescent.]
1. No longer in use; gone into disuse; disused; neglected;
as, an obsolete word; an obsolete statute; -- applied
chiefly to words, writings, or observances.

2. (Biol.) Not very distinct; obscure; rudimental;
imperfectly developed; abortive.

-----------------

From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913):

Obsolete \Ob"so*lete\, v. i.
To become obsolete; to go out of use. [R.] --Fitzed. Hall.


-----------------

[favpseudonym]

why do we always have to think that just because something is improved on, its immediately obsolete?

in the case of the 1gig processor-its not obsolete. I owned a Ti for a year. It WAS the best portable on the market. There were no gripes except the fact that i couldnt see the status light when the lid was closed.
But there are so many other improvements within the new line of powerbooks that cant be ignored besides the fact that the Ti is not the best portable on the market anymore.

-TWO year old case design
-single data rate memory
-11mbps as opposed to 54 airport
-very delicate hinge
-very delicate paint
-lack of a 17" screen offering
-lack of a 12" screen offering
-and hopefully soon lack of 15.4" offering

So to me my old Ti is obsolete.
It is percieved to be an obsolete box in the eyes of so many because it is offered among the other newer models. Instead of getting the new 15.?" al pb on shelves and making the Ti's available only through education sales like they should have. Instead they play this waiting game, and cause so much unrest about the Ti which directs so much undue scrutiny to the entire line.

[BigJayhawk]

As you say, the TiBook may not be the LATEST or BEST laptop on the market anymore. However, with reference to the post above about how bad he wants a TiBook, the TiBook is BY NO MEANS obsolete.

in fact, (sorry to say this) you have to be pretty SPOILED to use the word OBSOLETE with reference to something that is still a better all-around machine that 90% of what the world uses.

I consider myself VERY LUCKY to be fortunate enough to own last year's TiBook model just as if I owned a 1-2 year old Cadillac. I have a 3 1/2 year old to support (with one on the way) and every dollar spent on my TiBook was very valuable and very worth it.

Making a point by using the most extreme wording available (i.e. OBSOLETE instead of using NOT THE NEWEST ANYMORE) belittles many, many Mac (and PeeCee) users that would ABSOLUTELY LOVE to have a TiBook.

There are BRAND NEW Dell PeeCees in my office that couldn't hold a candle to my TiBook but that doesn't make them obsolete either. (Although they are certainly a PAIN!)

[favpseudonym]

Many valid points were made in that reply. I agree with many of them.
But you ignored a key sentence.
"So to me my old Ti is obsolete."
meaning that my own personal preference is the new Alpb. And with naming new features of the Al pb's, I do not attempt to as you say "belittle" Ti owners. HERE is why im putting my 2 cents into this thing:
So hopefully someone reading this who is shopping around for a pb will not get sucked into this game that apple plays-by delaying the release of what people want the most(midsize notebook) in order to clear out older model inventory. To discourage John Doe from this scenario-

Going to the apple store, or looking at pictures online and saying DAMN! that new case looks so beautiful, plus 54mbps airport, plus ddr ram, plus quieter, plus sturdier. But that 12" is just too small, and the 17" is too big. Ah well, the Ti is still awesome-I'll take one of those please. Would you like to get any additional memory? -no thanks. Would you like an extra battery? -no thanks. Would you like to buy a carrying case for the computer? -no thanks. Would you like to get any blank cd's or dvd's? -no thanks. We no longer offer any productivity software with our notebooks, Microsoft office is 500$ but we offer Apple works for 80$. -no thanks. Would you like to get apple care with your purchase today? Ummmm-yeah, id better get that. Cash, check or charge? -Charge. Ok your total is $3191.21**. --then after a few weeks of use-- John checks his email, sister says hello, usa bank says he can get a great home loan, classmates found 2 more matches, and apple e-news announces that he has just payed $3191.21** for a Ti instead of the newer features and better design of a 15" Al pb. Would he not feel that his $3191.21 could have been better spent? Use of the word obsolete, old, outdated, antiquated, outmoded, or superannuated. IT doesnt matter-he'll still feel pretty bad-dont you think?
summed up for;
prospective midsize notebook buyers-WAIT for a few weeks!
current Ti owners-
You most likely still have the best notebook on your block. If you want to sell it you can probably get a good price. I sold mine on Yahoo classified within 1 week of posting for 1700$
BigJayhawk-
I do spoil myself. But i earned every penny and i can spend it how i please;)

** http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/70603/wo/SN1QxnMg5Ihu2PVXYzL1PtqWhVC/2.0.7.1.0.5.1

(2948.00 without tax)

[jbomber]

Originally posted by reflex
Interesting... the side doesn't really look like an iBook or a 12" PB. On the other hand, it is a bit unclear. So I doubt this is the new 15" PB.

hmm.. it's almost certainly a pb12 and not the new 15.

although initially the proportions seem a bit off, they do match those the Al 12.

the most telling thing tho, is the keyboard positioning. the keyboard extends to the edge of the 12. the keyboard on the 17 sits far away from the edges. it only stands to reason that the keyboard on the 15 would leave some space between it and the edges.

unfortunately, this one's a 12.

[Sun Baked]

Absolutely a fig newton of your imagination caused by the camera location.

[abdul]

everyone talks about how the speed of the computer is not important but the os. Well the os is great, but why should i dash bout $1000 on a computer that can do the job but the hardware offers no competion over the competitors?

you may say software but ilife is sold separately now and upgrades to different stages in the mac osx transition is costing $129 a piece.

i like the os and have been waiting for near enough two years now for an ibook, seeing the speed jump 300mHz is not very encouraging.

[favpseudonym]

well, honestly-youre going to have to dish out a whole lot more than a grande for ANY platform to be really productive with anything more than mild word processing or web browsing.
if you are talking about spending about a grande and weighing a mac against a pc portable-the choice is clear. I would take a g3 over a celeron anyday! On top of that, many sub 1500 pc notebooks dont even have internal optical.
if you really need a speed jump from the old g3 why not buy an 867 12" pb? Or a 15" 867?

[leicaman]

Originally posted by tjwett
the G4 is HOT for one thing, power hungry, and obviously not very scalable. it's a dead horse, let's not keep beating it.
Go G3!!!

That is simply not true. The G4's reputation is that it's very frugal with power and runs very cool compared to the competition. That's why scientists preferred it over Pentiums in the first place. It actually makes a difference in their power bill. So by going with more G4s they used less power and heat for a given amount of performance.

And, it's also a fact that a G4 is a G3 with an Altivec slapped on it. (I know, it's more complext than that, but that's the general principle.) :cool:

[asymmetrik]

howdy-

So I need to get a laptop and I want the PB 12" because of its size and since it can have a SuperDrive.

Does anyone foresee the 12" PB getting:

FW800,
L3 cache,
DVI,
Gigabit Ethernet,
Higher Resolution,
Ambient Light Sensor

Pretty much all the things the 17" has but in the 12" model would be ideal.

Will it happen by MWNY?

thanks!

[tazo]

Originally posted by asymmetrik
howdy-

So I need to get a laptop and I want the PB 12" because of its size and since it can have a SuperDrive.

Does anyone foresee the 12" PB getting:

FW800,
L3 cache,
DVI,
Gigabit Ethernet,
Higher Resolution,
Ambient Light Sensor

Pretty much all the things the 17" has but in the 12" model would be ideal.

Will it happen by MWNY?

thanks!

I don't believe its possible for a higher resolution on a 12'' screen. The rest besides ALS seems like a very real possibility. The reason why I doubt the ALS will get in is just because of a lack of space.

[ouketii]

yeah, the max resolution on 12" screen is good as it is, but all the powerbooks need the rest of the stuff, to matc the 17".

[asymmetrik]

The rest besides ALS seems like a very real possibility.

do you folks think these updates to the 12" PB will happen (or be announced to happen) within the next month?

[lardlad]

Best Buy site is down, hope they are adding Apple

[crees!]

On the Apple Store (US) the 12" & 17" are listed at Same Day shipping while the 15" is at 7-10 days.

[panphage]

Originally posted by asymmetrik
Does anyone foresee the 12" PB getting:

FW800,
L3 cache,
DVI,
Gigabit Ethernet,
Higher Resolution,
Ambient Light Sensor

The real deal-breaker on this list for me is the DVI. L3 Cache would be very nice as well, but w/o the DVI, I decided to wait and see if they'll add it. If not, I'm going to save up and buy a G5 Xserve first instead and stick with my cube as workstation for a bit longer. I really want a portable and the 12 is just right for me, except I'd want to hook it to a 20" Cinema when I'm home. Look how much money Apple didn't make off of me yet just because the 12" PB has the "wrong" video-out. Weird how so small a thing can ruin everything.

[CrackedButter]

Its good to see that a few people here want the features of the 17" all put inside the 12".

I would want this as well, it is after all a "Pro" laptop, why can it not have those features and pay a higher price for it?

That to me would make it a revolutionary machine and have me believe it is fully featured? It makes no sense to NOT include DVI on a small machine yet include it on a huge 17" machine.

Alot of people want small as well as big laptops...why should the smaller ones suffer from lack of features, i got an iBook for this reason, i saved myself some money due to the 12" not having enough to warrant the price. I remember telling the guy over the phone when i rang apple up that i wanted the L3 cache in the 12" or i wouldn't buy it. Plus a 1Ghz processor.

Now i have an iBook i want either a 12" or a 15" pBook with FW800, minimum of a 1Ghz processor, DVI (incase i also buy another monitor), Superdrive. Wireless doesn't bother me at the moment.
Oh yeah...low weight and good battery life.

Not to much to ask and not impossible either.

[mattmack]

Originally posted by MattG
1.3Ghz with a 200mhz front side bus is plenty, G5 or no G5. I'd be plenty happy with that. Come on Apple, MAKE IT! Could they put it in a powermac case so I could upgrade it PLEASE

[Ensoniq]

Originally posted by asymmetrik
Does anyone foresee the 12" PB getting:

FW800,
L3 cache,
DVI,
Gigabit Ethernet,
Higher Resolution,
Ambient Light Sensor

When you look at the 12" PowerBook, what you really notice is that it's NOT a PowerBook. It's an iBook with a G4 processor. Everything that you listed above is what makes a PowerBook a PowerBook, and I believe that the next 12" revision will include those items. (Except maybe DVI due to lack of motherboard space for it.)

As soon as Apple can squeeze a G5 into a PowerBook and keep it cool, I expect the current 12" PowerBook to turn white and become the 12" iBook. And at iBook prices, it's the perfect portability/price combination. Let's hope it happens soon.

[wizard]

The biggest problem with the current IBooks as shipped is that htey need more RAM to run OS/X at its best. Lets face it 128MB or RAM in any pc is a bit limiting by todays standards and is a real pain in a laptop.

A spped bump of 300MHz could offer more than it appears. That is a faster I/O bus, larger cache and other improvements could lead to greater performance than the clock adjustment aludes to. Beside in my opinion the primary market for Ibook si extended run time, Apple does not want to scew that up. In fact they need to make things better in this regards. So what you have to do is find a laptop that has the features you need and the features you want, it does no good to try to turn the iBook into something that would cause it to mis its market segment.

Dave


Originally posted by abdul
everyone talks about how the speed of the computer is not important but the os. Well the os is great, but why should i dash bout $1000 on a computer that can do the job but the hardware offers no competion over the competitors?

you may say software but ilife is sold separately now and upgrades to different stages in the mac osx transition is costing $129 a piece.

i like the os and have been waiting for near enough two years now for an ibook, seeing the speed jump 300mHz is not very encouraging.

[asymmetrik]

As soon as Apple can squeeze a G5 into a PowerBook and keep it cool, I expect the current 12" PowerBook to turn white and become the 12" iBook. And at iBook prices, it's the perfect portability/price combination. Let's hope it happens soon.

Do you think that the 12" won't be getting an upgrade (of the aforementioned features) before they figure out how to put in the G5?

I wonder if it's best to just get the cheapest laptop now (either iBook or PB with maxed RAM) and wait to get the "Powerbook" when the G5s are done (in about 1yr?), considering once it comes out, of course I'll want one...

[leicaman]

[i]
I wonder if it's best to just get the cheapest laptop now (either iBook or PB with maxed RAM) and wait to get the "Powerbook" when the G5s are done (in about 1yr?), considering once it comes out, of course I'll want one... [/B]

You might find the iBook is a perfect companion. But maybe the 12" G4 Powerbook too. It depends on what you'll do with it if you'll be happy with it or not. I used to do light Photoshop Work and demos of InDesign, Photoshop and GoLive at work. And it was great for that. And it would play DVDs when no PC laptop in the company would. I'd just whip out my iBook and peole would notice it looks different than theirs, and OS X looked much better than XP.

But IT wouldn't be happy if I started converting non-graphics people to Macs. They're still too afraid of Macs to properly support them. I am our IT department's first-to-call tech support for Macs. :D

[plutnicki]

I'm all ready to buy a 15" Powerbook. The 1 GHz, 1Gig mem, 60 gig drive, superdrive maxed out version, with Applecare, an extra battery and an extra power cable.

I don't really care about Airport Extreme, FW800. The case isn't that important.

What I don't want is to find out next week that it's become the low end system, for $500 less with a new case.

So I guess I'll wait a bit longer, but come July21st or so, if there's nothing concrete, the order goes in.

Ya just can't wait forever...

...Jim

[tdewey]

I am also ready to by the tricked out 15" Ti. I use a laptop for five things: Surfing, Using Word, watching DVDs on planes, playing around with UNIX and EQMac, the 15" will do all of these at 1Ghz/64MB ATI 9000/60GB/ Combo or SuperDrive as well as, or better than, either the 17" or 12" (with the exception of dual page display on the 17" for Word--the display is too big for airplanes unless you can pay for First Class...of course if you can pay for the 17" maybe you are in First Class ;-) ). The only reason to buy a WinTel machine is for gaming and if I am going to do that I am going to buy a pure games box, not a laptop (see e.g. the SWG forums for the woes of laptop gamers).

But I dont want to buy it and have them drop in price on July 16th and have to screw around with getting the 10day rebate...and on the offchance they announce a 15.4 at the same current price point available now...I might pick that up....if it has the lighted keyboard thingie and a larger harddrive (can never have too much memory or too much harddrive space).


Anyway...rumors abound that the 15.4 PB will be annouced at Macworld in NY by Joz or at the conference call on the 16th. Let us hope they are true.

Cheers

T

[jbomber]

Originally posted by tdewey


Anyway...rumors abound that the 15.4 PB will be annouced at Macworld in NY by Joz or at the conference call on the 16th. Let us hope they are true.

Cheers

T

Tomorrow I'm asking my company to pay for a pass to Macworld. I'm trying to score the hat-trick.

Day off
Paid trip to MacWorld
New Laptop

C'mon Apple. Don't disappoint me.

[GroundLoop]

Originally posted by tdewey
But I dont want to buy it and have them drop in price on July 16th and have to screw around with getting the 10day rebate


I hear ya. I am pretty much in the same boat as you, but I only want a 12" PowerBook. I am not going to use it for anything super-intense, but mainly for business travel and being able to surf the web while I am on the toilet. You know, the easy stuff. I will save the real work for my G5 when I decide to buy one.

What I am looking for is a 12", 1GHz G4, Up to 1GB or RAM, and the backlit keyboard(this prolly won't happen though).

Here's to hoping for a PowerBook update announcement next week.

Hickman

[MacKid]

Originally posted by asymmetrik
howdy-

So I need to get a laptop and I want the PB 12" because of its size and since it can have a SuperDrive.

Does anyone foresee the 12" PB getting:

FW800,
L3 cache,
DVI,
Gigabit Ethernet,
Higher Resolution,
Ambient Light Sensor

Pretty much all the things the 17" has but in the 12" model would be ideal.

Will it happen by MWNY?

thanks!
Probably not to the 800,

50/50 to the L3

DVI-Probably

Gigabit 50/50

Higher Resolution-If nothing else, they need something to farther distance it from the iBooks, but I've never seen 12" above 1024x768 or whatever it is.


And heck no to the sensor.

[MacKid]

Originally posted by Ensoniq
When you look at the 12" PowerBook, what you really notice is that it's NOT a PowerBook. It's an iBook with a G4 processor.

And less weight,
and smaller,
and thinner,
with AirPort Extreme built-in,
and with Bluetooth built-in,
and with slot-loading SuperDrive,
and with GeForce 4 420 Go,
and VGA,
and S-Video,
and audio line-in,
and a third midrange speaker,
and DDR RAM,
and 60 GB HD.


Well, I guess, it's sorta' like an iBook, sorta'. . .kinda'. . .

[Ensoniq]

Originally posted by MacKid
And less weight,
and smaller,
and thinner,
with AirPort Extreme built-in,
and with Bluetooth built-in,
and with slot-loading SuperDrive,
and with GeForce 4 420 Go,
and VGA,
and S-Video,
and audio line-in,
and a third midrange speaker,
and DDR RAM,
and 60 GB HD.

Well, I guess, it's sorta' like an iBook, sorta'. . .kinda'. . .

Your points are well taken...I was not trying to slam the PowerBook vs. the iBook. But let's be sure to note that I'm talking about the PB 12" Combo vs. the iBook 12" Combo unit for comparison.

Size and weight differences beween the iBook and PowerBook 12" are negligible. The iBook and PB combo drive units have the same hard drive space standard. Bluetooth is a plus on the PB, but Airport Extreme is an extra, not built-in. DDR memory is useless without a G4, and the VGA/S-Video ports are identical. Video ram is the same, but the PB video chip is a little better. That is why Apple can sell the PB 12" Combo for only $200 more than the iBook 12" Combo with a 128 MB memory upgrade and a USB Bluetooth adaptor. The machines are NOT that different.

It would be the perfect machine if it WAS an iBook at iBook prices. But as a "PowerBook", I think it needs more of the "wow factor" gizmos of the entire PowerBook line added. So in my mind at least, the PowerBook 12" is more of a "Franken-iBook" ... I'd rather see the iBook 12" become what the PowerBook 12" is today, and see the PB 12" not be purposely "amputated" by Apple. :)