Apple Pursuing Fuel Cell Tech for PowerBooks?

[MacRumors]

MacEdition posts (http://www.macedition.com/nmr/nmr_20030626.php) an interesting update... reporting that Apple is actively pursuing Fuel Cell technology to power future PowerBooks:


They report that Apple has been feverishly seeking out fuel-cell companies that might accept their investment dollars – and afford it a competitive advantage in this up-and-coming market.


MacEdition, however, also reports that Intel is seeking out the same companies -- and trying to lock Apple out with attempts to gain exclusive agreements. Apple appears to be so interested, that the report indicates they are willing to build future PowerBooks around Fuel Cell designs rather than vice-versa.

Related Info:

What is a Fuel Cell? (http://www.fuelcells.org/whatis.htm)
Space-age computer power (http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/06/23/1056220529753.html)

[acj]

This isn't new. I've seen some other interesting technologies that may be used in notebooks. One is a nano-sized generator that runs off a cartridge of butaine. It would produce less emmisions than a person, so ti would be safe on an airplane (minus the compressed butane part!). Recharges would be instant. I doubt either company will lock out the other, regardless of who's first.

[cb911]

sounds cool. must be good stuff if Apple will change the PowerBooks to meet the fuel cell requirements. i'll have to read up on this...

[beatle888]

did you see the diagram? this thing doesnt need recharging. it takes in the AIR and generates heat water and electricity. this by FAR wipes the floor with a butane cartridge. this is just as wonderful as solid state devices. fuel cells are incredible.

[Xero]

this is really cool stuff, but wat i dont get, is whats actually providing the power here; what is the base raw material here? obiously you cant plug this baby into the wall to power it... so are we going to have to "fill up" our fuel cell powered laptops every time the battery is depleted? seems kinda goofy to me!:p

EDIT:
Originally posted by beatle888
did you see the diagram? this thing doesnt need recharging. it takes in the AIR and generates heat water and electricity. this by FAR wipes the floor with a butane cartridge. this is just as wonderful as solid state devices. fuel cells are incredible.

actually you need hydrogen to power this, not just air. i knew this when i posted this reply, but im just wondering where/how/what form we'd get the hydrogen in.

[bertagert]

i didn't read the article, nor do i know anything about fuel cells, but couldn't you get the hydrogen from bringing in the air and seperating the hydrogen from the oxygen (from H2O, which air has plenty of)?

[evolu]

why would this be limited to powerbooks? Seems like a larger unit could power a desktop - a smaller one an iPod.

[evolu]

Originally posted by bertagert
i didn't read the article, nor do i know anything about fuel cells, but couldn't you get the hydrogen from bringing in the air and seperating the hydrogen from the oxygen (from H2O, which air has plenty of)?

It takes energy to separate the Hydrogen from the Oxygen - defeating the purpose...

The info about fuel cells is from 2000 - I wonder how far the tech has come?

[tizza]

would be great if Apple could own some of the fundamental intellectual property on these fuel cells - would certainly help shut out competitors!!!

[evolu]

sorry for the triple post!

Here's some interesting reading on the tech in general...

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,58436,00.html

and for laptops specifically...

http://www.smartfuelcell.de/en/presse/c030310.html

[Dros]

Originally posted by evolu
why would this be limited to powerbooks? Seems like a larger unit could power a desktop - a smaller one an iPod.

Most desktops can be plugged into a wall :)

It would be great when fuel cells are so competitive everything can go "off the grid", but it will still be a while.

[mgargan1]

one of the laws of thermal dynamics states that you can not create or destroy matter or engery; however, you can change it. My question is, because of this, where would the by product go? There has to be some form of waste, and if there is, then it will probably be hydrogen, which too much of in the atmosphere would cause the ozone to be depleted. So it would actually be harmful to the environment to use your computer, and that's not what Al Gore would endorse now is it?

[arn]

Originally posted by bertagert
i didn't read the article, nor do i know anything about fuel cells, but couldn't you get the hydrogen from bringing in the air and seperating the hydrogen from the oxygen (from H2O, which air has plenty of)?

you realize that would require power?

arn

[arn]

Originally posted by mgargan1
My question is, because of this, where would the by product go? There has to be some form of waste, and if there is, then it will probably be hydrogen, it?

waste is water...

arn

[MacBandit]

Originally posted by arn
waste is water...

arn

I just want to add to this a bit. A fuel cell brings in Air for Oxygen and then through a reaction very similar to a catalytic reaction it combines the hydrogen with the oxygen and in the process a stray electron is released creating electricity. Once the Hydrogen and Oxygen is combined you get H2O/water. There is not wasted hydrogen since the only way for Hydrogen to escape is by combining with the Oxygen.


The only way Hydrogen could leak into the atmosphere would be at the refueling stations and really there is no reason for leakage there the equipment for moving high pressure gas can easily build in such a way that there is no waste. Also the people saying the hydrogen will hurt the Ozone from what I have seen don't really know what they are talking about. Hydrogen is the lightest element and gas known to man. An excess buildup of hydrogen in the atmosphere can only displace the Ozone not break it down but it won't even do that since it is so light that an excess build up will actually push to highest reaches of the atmosphere where it is actually blown off by solar winds.

[AhmedFaisal]

.... it means you got "Schnaps to go" with your Powerbook, boys *grins*
Cheers,

Ahmed

[digitalgiant]

Ok fuel cells sound great, but lets be real folks. We are talking about at least five years down the road, if not more. This is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo second page news. Blast me if you want to, but just call me a REALIST, this is not happening ANY time soon

Have a great day!!!!!

[andyduncan]

Originally posted by AhmedFaisal
.... it means you got "Schnaps to go" with your Powerbook, boys *grins*
Cheers,

Ahmed

"Whats that you've got powering your 22 inch PowerBook?"

"Lagavulin 16 year, nothing but the good stuff for my baby"

Actually most fuel cells are powered by Methanol. Which you really don't want to drink. Of course, the "cure" for methanol poisoning is to drink ethanol. now THAT'S a prescription i'd like to see more doctors hand out...

Methanol also makes you go blind (right before it kills you) which I suppose is a pretty extreme way to "drink 'em pretty."

Seriously though. Fuel cells are great until you run out of fuel. I have yet to see a convincing argument about why this is anything but a niche product. I can "refill" my battery from one of hundreds of millions of electrical outlets. Fuel cells may last longer, and it would take less time to "fill up" than it would to charge... but do you really want to have to keep a supply of fuel handy?

Running out of methanol might lead to huge headaches, which would in turn require ethanol...

[loneAzdgari]

Man, some people must have really skipped Chemistry!

There is nearly no Hydrogen in the atmosphere, mainly because its so reactive, nearly all of it has reacted with oxygen to form H20, as in water. Thats why we have so large oceans. Also, water would be the waste product and that could be split into Hydrogen and Water again.

The problem with fuel cell technology is that H20 takes lots of energy to split and the only way it can be done which doesnt damage the environment is at wind farms or sources of renewable energy. If you use coal power stations to split the compound, it will damage the environment. So the technology is there, just not the infrastructure to produce hydrogen cleanly, safely and efficiently. Until the US is 20% renewable, dont expect fuel cell cars or laptops. The way the US is going right now, think 2050.

[artificiallife]

Originally posted by bertagert
i didn't read the article, nor do i know anything about fuel cells, but couldn't you get the hydrogen from bringing in the air and seperating the hydrogen from the oxygen (from H2O, which air has plenty of)?

you didn't read the article, you don't know anything about fuel cells, and obviously you don't know basic science. H20 is water buddy, not Oxygen, and air does not have much water in it. ;)

[hvfsl]

I don't think fuel cells will really be a good idea in laptops, I expect to hear stories of people blowing up their powerbooks. Fuel cells are a good idea for cars, but I don't think they will work in laptops.

[Zaid]

Originally posted by Macrumors
MacEdition, however, also reports that Intel is seeking out the same companies -- and trying to lock Apple out with attempts to gain exclusive agreements.

This doesn't make any sense to me. Why would Intel be seeking out these battery manufacturers? Intel is a chip maker not a laptop maker. Sure if Apple gets the first fuel cell laptop out it would probably be a great success reducing demand for Intel's centrino platform, but seriously Apple would need to get a huge increase in market share (say 20-30% laptop mktshare) for Intel to be so worried as to try and stop Apple's access to fuel cells.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by Zaid
This doesn't make any sense to me. Why would Intel be seeking out these battery manufacturers? Intel is a chip maker not a laptop maker. Sure if Apple gets the first fuel cell laptop out it would probably be a great success reducing demand for Intel's centrino platform, but seriously Apple would need to get a huge increase in market share (say 20-30% laptop mktshare) for Intel to be so worried as to try and stop Apple's access to fuel cells. the striking thing is that they are supposedly locking apple out--trying to. the question is why, but it's mote about them being a silicon company than them competing with apple. wouldn't you think that Dell or HP or someone would be the ones going after this? how much of the laptop does intel actually make?

[weave]

Ah, so, if the waste of a fuel cell is water, what does that mean for a laptop? That it'd leak all over my lap as I use it? Or would I have to attach a bag to it and take my laptop out once in a while so it could take a leak?

[hvfsl]

Originally posted by Shadowfax
the striking thing is that they are supposedly locking apple out--trying to. the question is why, but it's mote about them being a silicon company than them competing with apple. wouldn't you think that Dell or HP or someone would be the ones going after this? how much of the laptop does intel actually make?

The only parts of the laptop Intel does not make is the case and screen. So it is posible Intel want to move to power sources since it is still electronics.

[Zaid]

Originally posted by hvfsl
The only parts of the laptop Intel does not make is the case and screen. So it is posible Intel want to move to power sources since it is still electronics.

I don't think intel do the mobo's either (at least not in most laptops) I also dont think they do the hard drives or other periphorals (CDR etc) They do make onboard sound and graphics chips (i think) but they aren't that widly used either.

They're a chip manufacturer not a general electronics firm.

[Telomar]

Originally posted by loneAzdgari
The problem with fuel cell technology is that H20 takes lots of energy to split and the only way it can be done which doesnt damage the environment is at wind farms or sources of renewable energy. If you use coal power stations to split the compound, it will damage the environment. So the technology is there, just not the infrastructure to produce hydrogen cleanly, safely and efficiently. Actually there are several other ways to refine Hydrogen than taking it from water and in fact water electrolysis only provides a very small percentage of the world's Hydrogen production. You don't need to produce the hydrogen though since it's unlikely you will be filling the fuel cell with hydrogen. More likely it'd be a hydrocarbon fuel or even just water. You can easily electrolyse the water in the recharge phase to get the necessary hydrogen and oxygen.

I'm not familiar with what they're planning at the battery sort of level but I expect they won't follow the model put forward for cars or industrial uses. I also doubt they'll use oxygen/hydrogen since then you need to work with compressed gases and that's not going to be overly nice. They'll go for liquid or solid fuels.

That said fuel cells aren't new the only thing making them more attractive now is the miniaturisation.

[XForge]

Originally posted by artificiallife
you didn't read the article, you don't know anything about fuel cells, and obviously you don't know basic science. H20 is water buddy, not Oxygen, and air does not have much water in it. ;)

Obviously you've never been to South Florida. One hundred percent humidity every day baby!!!!

[Mr. Anderson]

I have to agree above that this is not going to be something were going to see anytime soon - my prediction is there might be a fuelcelled powered G6 laptop ;)

Great tech and huge potential - but even getting the thing to work at larger scales for vehicles isn't here yet. When we get good power returns on fuel cells they will become a part of everyday life.

D

[tny]

Originally posted by bertagert
i didn't read the article, nor do i know anything about fuel cells, but couldn't you get the hydrogen from bringing in the air and seperating the hydrogen from the oxygen (from H2O, which air has plenty of)?

No. The amount of power you'd get from the fuel cell is lower than the amount it would take to separate the Hydrogen from the Oxygen.

[ReelFocused]

If we use fuel cells the way we use fossil fuels, would the globe end up covered in clouds? Seems like messing with Hydrogen on a grand scale could be a disaster.

[mwpeters8182]

I don't see how this can work -- If you need any sort of compressed gas to power this, they won't let you take it on a plane with you. Especially hydrogen -- very flammable. Unless they have another source, maybe a better battery technology is the way to go.

[Jotham]

Originally posted by tny
No. The amount of power you'd get from the fuel cell is lower than the amount it would take to separate the Hydrogen from the Oxygen.

Well. The amount of power you get from a battery is also lower than the amount it takes to charge.

Some batteries are rechargable (Lithium-Ion) and some aren't (Copper/Acid).

Likewise, some fuel cell designs are rechargable (re-seperate the Hydrogen from the Oxygen) and some aren't (use Methanol).

Fuel cells are just a different electrical storage medium using Hydrogen instead of some form of chemical acid - both can be dangerous and cumbersome if not properly contained - and this is the area where fuel cell research is still most busily searching.

I wouldn't use a current fuel cell for a laptop, just like I wouldn't lug around a car battery (mmm, liquid acid) on the base of a laptop.

Apple (and Intel and everyone else) are looking for the company that can package it all up (be it hydrogen absorbing pellets or some exotic nano-honeycomb cell) and produce the AA battery of fuel cells. And the company that can find that would be silly to lock themselves in exclusively with anyone.

[sonofslim]

Did I read something on this site a while ago about some company or lab toying with the notion of thin-film polymer gel batteries in laptops? Or was that polymer-gel based cell phones? Man, now I'm mixing up my designer technologies.

[evoluzione]

sorry if i'm being a bit dumb here, but this waste issue, why would there be waste?? if you're converting this energy, wouldn't the "waste" be the light and heat emissions given off by the powerbook??

[ksugaya]

Several Japanese companies already have fuel cell technology for their note book.
See:
http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2003_03/pr_j0501.htm

Sorry, it is in Japanese though.;)

[slowtreme]

I dont want to "fill up my notebook" I'd rather recharge it. And even worse, I dont want it peeing on my lap!

[elfin buddy]

There would only be waste (of any form) if the designers allowed there to be. Hydrogen and oxygen would produce water as 'waste' if the designers decided to release the water into the atmosphere (I think it would be a gas after the reaction). If they decided to contain the water for future electrolysis , there would be no direct waste from the fuel cell. Of course, depending on where it gets the energy to perform electrolysis on the water, there could be a lot of waste coming from that source :rolleyes:

If methanol were to be used, I suspect it would have to be a pure form of methanol for there to be no harmful emissions. Methanol found in our favourite alcoholic beverage has other chemicals in there besides methanol, though it's mostly just water. I personally don't like the idea of using methanol because there would be leftover carbon somewhere in the process (unless combustion were used and we got carbon dioxide emissions instead, which is equally unwanted). Same goes for ethanol and all the other alcohols. BTW, I noticed that some people here think that we drink ethanol....well I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to stay out of the hospital and keep my eyesight....

Overall, I think that hydrogen and oxygen is the way to go if fuel cells are to be used. If the design reuses its water, all the manufacturer needs to do is put a few drops of de-ionized water in the cell before shipping it off, and it's ready to be 'charged' (use electrolysis to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen). Now the only question is 'What kind of battery life do we have?'

These fuel cells sound promising, but I think the lithium polymer battery is the way to go for now :p

[Zeke]

Originally posted by ReelFocused
If we use fuel cells the way we use fossil fuels, would the globe end up covered in clouds? Seems like messing with Hydrogen on a grand scale could be a disaster.

The amount of water produced from combustion of a fossil fuel is much higer than a fuel cell due to the efficiencies of the reaction. Assuming an internal combustion engine is 20% efficient (not a bad assumption) and a fuel cell is 55% (again not bad). So the products of an internal combustion reaction are CO2 and H20 (along with smaller amounts of CO and NOx). To do the same amount of work with an IC engine you have to burn nearly 3 times as much fuel. Therefore, the fuel cells will actually produce less water for the amount of power needed. And they won't produce excess CO2 (greenhouse gas). Fuel cells are great...they're close to being used large scale. The only thing holding them back is distribution and cost (catalyst is platinum which is quite expensive).

[technocoy]

my cousin in new mexico came to visit recently, and he had a fuel cell running his PDA. I don't know exactly how it worked and it was about the size of a big wallet, but he seemed to love it. I'll see if i can find out more about it. And whoever said 2050, your trippin, there are two places here in NC that re hot on fuel cells for cars, and a friend i had in one of them said that GM's prediction of 2010 seems to be right on for the first production fuel cell cars. they are also in the works to create a fuel cell that acts as a generator so that energy companies will become interested and begin populating the US with fill-up points... kind of like the propane racks at gas stations, only bigger.

just what i've learned about it.

technocoy

[Zeke]

Originally posted by elfin buddy
BTW, I noticed that some people here think that we drink ethanol....well I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to stay out of the hospital and keep my eyesight....


Actually, you can drink ethanol (moonshine)...methanol will blind you and in large enough quantities kill you. Problem with ethanol is usually you have a small percentage of methanol present (unless it's high quality).

[rickvanr]

would these fuel cells not be kinda toasty on your lap?

[elfin buddy]

I always thought that it was methanol that we were drinking...are you sure?

[Laslo Panaflex]

I think that they (apple) need to pursue this technology, becuase when they come out with a way to make it work, everyone will copy it. Intel doesn't want apple to get involved because intel just released centrino which probably cost them a lot of money in research and has low power consumption. Who will buy a cintrino when power doesn't matter, apple is a threat to them.

That being said, I think that this would be cool, but from my understanding of the technology I just don't see it any time soon, if at all in a laptop. A car I can see, cars can leak water out onto the road, but a laptop (its been said here before) peeing all over me, no thanks I'll just plug it in (where it usually stays anyway).

Peas.

[elfin buddy]

OK I see that you are right now...I just did a little research... :p

But I'm still confused because I swear to God that my chem teacher said methanol was the stuff in alcoholic drinks... lol oh well! :rolleyes:

[evolu]

The water by-product could be separated again using the heat produced by the processor.

No fans - just a self contained symbiotic cycle of energy exchange. Of course some energy would be lost in the process - but that could be provided by a small rechargable battery that could last for weeks...

[Macmaniac]

I think your thinking of ethanol. Glug Glug!
__HH
H-C-C-OH
__H H

The forums are messing up my diagram

[elfin buddy]

Originally posted by evolu
The water by-product could be separated again using the heat produced by the processor.

No fans - just a self contained symbiotic cycle of energy exchange. Of course some energy would be lost in the process - but that could be provided by a small rechargable battery that could last for weeks...

OK, I'm not familiar with this at all....How would that work? How can you separate water using only heat? Wouldn't you need to convert it first?

[crees!]

I'm down with a 10-hour battery life :D This link describes all the basics... ie, what is used to create the power, what's done with the byproducts, and when it'll be available. Just hit up google and type in "fuel cells" and notebook.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,933587,00.asp

[cgc]

Originally posted by mgargan1
one of the laws of thermal dynamics states that you can not create or destroy matter or engery; however, you can change it. My question is, because of this, where would the by product go? There has to be some form of waste, and if there is, then it will probably be hydrogen, which too much of in the atmosphere would cause the ozone to be depleted. So it would actually be harmful to the environment to use your computer, and that's not what Al Gore would endorse now is it?

Hydrogen is an inert gas and poses no threat to global warming. Actually, like helium, hydrogen escape the Earth's gravitational pull and is lost to space. BTW, I'm taking Environmental Engineering classes in college (and I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night).

[Jotham]

Originally posted by evolu
The water by-product could be separated again using the heat produced by the processor.

No fans - just a self contained symbiotic cycle of energy exchange. Of course some energy would be lost in the process - but that could be provided by a small rechargable battery that could last for weeks...

I think you're thinking of:
water + heat = steam (steam still being H20 molecules - just more spread out)

Fuel Cells work on:
H2 + 0 = H20 + spare electron

the reverse process 'water cracking' requires the electron back - to do this you send a high electrical current (electrons) back through the water and when an electron hits a water molecule it smashes it back apart. (Ofcourse alot of the electrons miss and reach the other side without hitting a single water molecule, which is why you always end up needing to put more energy in than you get out.)

[Malic]

Originally posted by weave
Ah, so, if the waste of a fuel cell is water, what does that mean for a laptop? That it'd leak all over my lap as I use it? Or would I have to attach a bag to it and take my laptop out once in a while so it could take a leak?

...or water vapor. In which case there would just need to be an exhaust port like, a fan grill, somewhere. Probably integrated with the cooling air flow of the notebook. Just slightly more humid.

[hariya]

I skimmed through the thread and there seems to be so many misconceptions and misunderstandings. I will try to set straight some and if I end up confusing you more, post below and I will try to respond.

Firstly, water is useless as "fuel" for a fuel cell. The energy obtained by making water will be less than the energy needed to split water. This is just the 2nd law at work. Things can never be ³ 100% efficient.

Secondly, even other alcohols suggested are not good fuel cell candidates because they are liquids. The energy density (energy/mass) is low and you have various handling and combustability problems. They are great for cars but for electronics, a solid fuel is a better candidate.

One of the most promising candidates is NaBH_4. http://www.ectechnic.co.uk/NaBH4.htm is one place to look up more info. However, it does not work unless it is dissolved in water or an alkali. Optimally, all liquid processing should be avoided and that is where research is headed.

The best fuel cell would be a zeolite. It will stay as solid and then when it is exhausted, it can be recharged by putting it in a stream of hydrogen. That is still fairly far away.

ETA http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2003/17apr_zeolite.htm pretty much says what I say in this post but more clearly and with pretty pictures.

[Malic]

Originally posted by Jotham
I think you're thinking of:
water + heat = steam (steam still being H20 molecules - just more spread out)

Fuel Cells work on:
H2 + 0 = H20 + spare electron

the reverse process 'water cracking' requires the electron back - to do this you send a high electrical current (electrons) back through the water and when an electron hits a water molecule it smashes it back apart. (Ofcourse alot of the electrons miss and reach the other side without hitting a single water molecule, which is why you always end up needing to put more energy in than you get out.)

There is some talk in rarified-air circles about resonent electrical currents decomposing water. The energy requirement is suppose to be much lower but I don't know too many specifics. For more details, look up Tesla's work with resonance.

[CJYetman]

Wow! Massive heat AND water vapor!
The new powerbooks could double as a travel iron!

[mackman]

There has been a lot of discussion about the problems with water electrolyse so far and where do you get the energy to do it and etc. Here is a suggestion. Why couldn't you simply plug your laptop into a conventional power source to provide the energy needed? It would be just like recharging your batter in the conventional manner except that your batter lasts a lot longer and you have to recharge less frequently. Just a thought, what do you think?

[LostPacket]

Man, some people must have really skipped Chemistry!

There is nearly no Hydrogen in the atmosphere, mainly because its so reactive, nearly all of it has reacted with oxygen to form H20, as in water. Thats why we have so large oceans. Also, water would be the waste product and that could be split into Hydrogen and Water again.

Actually, the reason there's so little hydrogen in the atmosphere is because it escapes into space.

My question is, because of this, where would the by product go? There has to be some form of waste

The waste products would be water and either CO or CO2. Since there's no large natural sources of H2, it has to be produced artificially. If methanol is used as a fuel source (as the article suggests) the H2 would be produced within the laptop:

CH3OH + H2O + heat (from the processor?) -> 3H2 + CO2 (and a little CO)

The emmisions might pose a problem, and methanol is combustable, so I agree with hariya that the best fuel source would probably be some form of H2 trapped in a solid state. However, you'd have to figure out how to recharge it.

The H2 would also still have to created somehow. A refinery would steam reform methane:

CH4 + 1/2 O2 + heat (steam) -> 2H2 + CO (even worse than CO2)

So no matter what, the fuel cell (and hydrogen economy for that matter) can't be emissions-free until we find an efficient way to electolyze water (not to mention you'd have to use an emissions-free source of electricity).

1 week cell/battery life would still kick ass though. :) I'm sure someone smarter than any of us will figure it out soon.

[NavyIntel007]

This fuel cell stuff could also be tied into cooling. I'm not really technical with this stuff but if the biproduct of the fuel cells is water could this water also be used to cool the laptop?

[ksugaya]

I am not sure that the water generated by fuel cell can be used for cooling, but it will be recycled as fuel.
CH3OH+H2O--->6H++6e

[evolu]

Originally posted by NavyIntel007
This fuel cell stuff could also be tied into cooling. I'm not really technical with this stuff but if the biproduct of the fuel cells is water could this water also be used to cool the laptop?

I agree - air is now used for cooling - but water could be more effective. If it's already a bi-product, it makes sense.

[Les Kern]

waste is water... [/QUOTE]

I guess that would be good for 3rd-party companies. I'd imagine the first would be Br. Bott coming out with a PowerBookDiaper.

[zuggerat]

i dont know why apple is worrying about getting fuel cells into laptops. they have just released a new chip they should be putting all their resources into R&D, mainly making the chip run efficiently enough to put it into the powerbook in the quickest possible time frame. they already have some of the best battery lifes on the markets for their top of the line laptops. look at a fully featured dells and they'll get at most 2 and a half hours and the G4 powerbooks can get anywhere from 4 and a half to 5 hours depending on the model. they have yet to even get the G5 running cool enough to put it into the powerbook (according to what we have all been told). i think they need to straighten out their priorities.

1. get the G5 running at extremely low watts per hour 25-40 and then...

2. go for the big one...10 hour+ battery life...

i agree with an older post that this should be more along the lines of 2nd page story...not that its not important...but just that the technology is so far off it's not having a huge impact on the market currently

[andyduncan]

Originally posted by elfin buddy
BTW, I noticed that some people here think that we drink ethanol....well I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to stay out of the hospital and keep my eyesight....

Ethanol, aka Ethyl Alcohol (http://www.pharmco-prod.com/pages/ep1.pdf) is the alcohol in beer or liquor. It's "safe" to drink if it comes in that form. You wouldn't want to drink a bottle of rubbing alcohol (http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/ET/ethyl_alcohol.html) though.

[excalibur313]

Okay so what about this: you have a battery with hydrogen in it. It takes oxygen from the air and your left with water. When all of the hydrogen is used up you need to recharge your battery by plugging it into the wall and by using electrolysis separate the hydrogen and oxygen and then release the oxygen into the air to conserve space, unplug that baby and you're good to go. If i remember correctly you can hydrolyze water pretty fast too. This way you don't have to go and buy hydrogen everytime your laptop runs out of juice. Just an idea.
Steve

[Telomar]

Originally posted by mackman
There has been a lot of discussion about the problems with water electrolyse so far and where do you get the energy to do it and etc. Here is a suggestion. Why couldn't you simply plug your laptop into a conventional power source to provide the energy needed? It would be just like recharging your batter in the conventional manner except that your batter lasts a lot longer and you have to recharge less frequently. Just a thought, what do you think? You pretty much hit the nail on the head. The idea of fuel cells isn't to be 100% efficient it's just to provide longer battery life. The problem is playing around with compressed hydrogen is pretty much not going to happen.

Originally posted by LostPacket
Actually, the reason there's so little hydrogen in the atmosphere is because it escapes into space.Actually it's just because it's reactive as al hell. Hydrogen reacts with just about anything. It'd never make it through the atmosphere to reach space it would have reacted with oxygen along the way.

Originally posted by LostPacket
CH4 + 1/2 O2 + heat (steam) -> 2H2 + CO (even worse than CO2) You'll find they do the reactions using excess steam and excess air to minimise CO production. Also you can play around with coal, which can have a significant amount of stored hydrogen, and in fact improve the energy utilisation of the coal.

[topicolo]

Originally posted by cgc
Hydrogen is an inert gas and poses no threat to global warming.

Lol. Hydrogen is NOT that inert. If it were, the Hindenburg never would've caught on fire there would never be any hydrogen explosions. If you ever throw a large chunk of sodium (not sodium chloride) into water and waited, you'll know what I mean.

[Mirus]

Stop by your local Home Depot/Lowells/Menards and check out their fuel cell powered tools. I know some are using FCs in finish nailers and you can buy them now.

Lets see if I can find a link:

http://www.paslode.com/products/tool_catalog/IMCT.html

Or try this out:

http://www.utoypia.com/fuelcellcar.php

[Macmaniac]

Originally posted by topicolo
Lol. Hydrogen is NOT that inert. If it were, the Hindenburg never would've caught on fire there would never be any hydrogen explosions. If you ever throw a large chunk of sodium (not sodium chloride) into water and waited, you'll know what I mean.
My chem teacher has a great video about large chunks of sodium and water. Its great entertainment!!
BOOM BOOM BOOM!!!

[ennerseed]

http://209.242.151.6:8080/ramgen/coleman1.rm?usehostname

http://www.airgen.com/technology.shtml

http://www.fuelcellstore.com/

http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/index/0,1571,,00.html

[noverflow]

Originally posted by cgc
Hydrogen is an inert gas and poses no threat to global warming. Actually, like helium, hydrogen escape the Earth's gravitational pull and is lost to space. BTW, I'm taking Environmental Engineering classes in college (and I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night).

Last time i checked, hydrogen had one valance electron.

also, when hydrogen is hit by cosmic rays we get mesons, and they only last for a few ms... so here is an other reason there is so little hydrogen in out atmosphere

[acj]

By products are heat and water. Can't use that to cool the cpu.

Can, however, use the evaporating liquid hydrogen to possibly cool the cpu. Evaporation results in cooling.

[Dragonneyes]

Originally posted by andyduncan
"Whats that you've got powering your 22 inch PowerBook?"


Seriously though. Fuel cells are great until you run out of fuel.

I absolutely agree with this. I've had a few years of chemistry and I fully understand how a fuel cell works. What would happen when the methanol ran out? You'd run to the gas station to fill up your laptop?

They'd have to find something that gives off more than one hydrogen or that can be recombined with the water given off in order to be "reuseable."

It's a nice dream, but a far-off one.

[question fear]

Originally posted by CJYetman
Wow! Massive heat AND water vapor!
The new powerbooks could double as a travel iron!


LOL!!!!!!!!
thats hysterical.
On a practical note, it will save college students headed off to college some $$....no need for an iron AND a computer.
(definitely a sign convergence of tech has gone too far.)

--carly

[LostPacket]

Sorry in advance if this is getting too off-topic.

Actually it's [the reason why there's little H2 in the atmosphere] just because it's reactive as al hell. Hydrogen reacts with just about anything. It'd never make it through the atmosphere to reach space it would have reacted with oxygen along the way.

While the elemental form of hydrogen is quite reactive, the molecular form (H2) is not. H2 is very stable and reacts with few compounds in the atmosphere. The fact that it's flammable has little to do with its reactivity in general.

Although its reaction with oxygen is spontaneous, it's very slow due to the high activation energy. This is why a catalyst is required within the fuel cell; to pull apart the stable H2 molecule into its individual (and reactive) atoms.

Thus, most of the hydrogen will escape into space long before it has a chance to react with anything in the atmosphere.

[Longey Nowze]

slashdot.org (http://http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/06/07/2110231&mode=thread&tid=100&tid=137)

Thank You
MaT

[evolu]

if it can fit in a phone - it can fit in an iPod.

[scan300]

Most of the articles linked from this discussion talk about the first generation of useable credit card sized fuel cells would be in the form of disposable power, much like a phone card.
Just another way to generate revenue and increase waste IMO.

I'm more interested in the Lithium polymer technology mentioned in The Age article. Though this battery won't out-perform a fuel cell, it's mains rechargeable and the size of a credit card. This would make for lighter laptops.

Also wait for LED technology to hit displays, low-K dielectrics in 90 micron fabbed cpu's and we'll be looking at some real power-savings.

If fuel cells could be combined to be complementary with lithium polymer batteries, ie both batteries could be used with the same enclosure, there would be a good market for a cheap back-up battery for long trips.

Also, what happened to the wind-up pc experiment? Maybe that's another thread...

[toes]

"Lol. Hydrogen is NOT that inert. If it were, the Hindenburg never would've caught on fire there would never be any hydrogen explosions."

The Hindenburg Combustion was caused by the paint coat used on the skin.;)

Go here for more: http://www.vidicom-tv.com/tohiburg.htm

[cooper13]

Originally posted by andyduncan
Ethanol, aka Ethyl Alcohol (http://www.pharmco-prod.com/pages/ep1.pdf) is the alcohol in beer or liquor. It's "safe" to drink if it comes in that form. You wouldn't want to drink a bottle of rubbing alcohol (http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/ET/ethyl_alcohol.html) though.

Rubbing alcohol is isopropyl alcohol (http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/PR/2-propanol.html), but yes, you don't want to drink it!

As far as the ozone is concerned, hydrogen may indeed prove to a problem. Caltech scientists reported in Science in the last week or so that leakage of hydrogen from large-scale hydrogen distribution systems (pipelines, filling stations, etc.) could allow hydrogen into the atmosphere. As numerous posters have noted, hydrogen is light. The problem is that it would accumulate in the stratosphere (where the ozone layer is) and react with oxygen to form water. This cools the stratosphere and promotes the breakdown of ozone.

However, this assumes a relatively high leakage rate and is somewhat controversial. More details here (http://associate.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1275), which I found from google. (Would have provided a link to Science, but most people probably don't have accounts to access it... :D )

[MacViolinist]

Originally posted by Macmaniac
My chem teacher has a great video about large chunks of sodium and water. Its great entertainment!!
BOOM BOOM BOOM!!!

A friend of mine threw a 2 liter bottle of sodium into the swimming pool of an apt complex that screwed him at about 4 in the morning. talk about boom. then the sirens started....

[sparkplug]

Toshiba allready have developed this for there notebooks

Toshiba Fuel cell (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=8152)

[Abdesai]

Originally posted by loneAzdgari
Man, some people must have really skipped Chemistry!

There is nearly no Hydrogen in the atmosphere, mainly because its so reactive, nearly all of it has reacted with oxygen to form H20, as in water. Thats why we have so large oceans. Also, water would be the waste product and that could be split into Hydrogen and Water again.

The problem with fuel cell technology is that H20 takes lots of energy to split and the only way it can be done which doesnt damage the environment is at wind farms or sources of renewable energy.

I think it is you that must have skipped Chemistry. The reason that there is very little hydrogen on Earth is because most of it floated away into space a long time ago. Also a fuel cell does not split H2O, it creates it. Fuel Cells do not require or create anything that damages the environment. The only waste is water.

[acj]

Originally posted by sparkplug
Toshiba allready have developed this for there notebooks

Toshiba Fuel cell (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=8152)

Awww, ruin everybody's fun. Apple wasn't first.

Although with 12 watts of output, Apple may be the only one capable of making a notebook that can run with that little power!


Looking at the toshiba specs, this is really cool. 2.5 pounds of fuel will run you for 100 hours. I could take this on a photo trip into the middle of nowhere for a week and be able to store and edit my digital files!

[acj]

Originally posted by Abdesai
I think it is you that must have skipped Chemistry. The reason that there is very little hydrogen on Earth is because most of it floated away into space a long time ago. Also a fuel cell does not split H2O, it creates it. Fuel Cells do not require or create anything that damages the environment. The only waste is water.

You are right about how fuel cells work, but they indirectly pollute just like electric cars. Hyrdrogen is hard to find just laying around, so it must be created. Often times with electricity, or refined from a hydrocarbon fuel source.

Are you sure hydrogen just floated away? Lighter than air doesn't mean negative weight and doesn't mean it's not affected by gravity.

[andyduncan]

Originally posted by cooper13
Rubbing alcohol is isopropyl alcohol (http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/PR/2-propanol.html), but yes, you don't want to drink it!


ugh. don't know how I missed that. was thinking denaturerd alcohol...

[elfin buddy]

To whoever thought of a combination of lithium polymer batteries and fuel cells: Right on! It would be awesome if the entire case of a laptop were made out of a lithium polymer battery and it had a fuel cell slot for backup =) I bet a laptop like that could go for weeks hahaha...

Pure sodium and water is always fun to play with, as long as you don't breathe the sodium hydroxide gas that comes along with it, lol =) We reacted some sodium and water in my chemistry class at the beginning of the year, under teacher supervision of course ;) I was a wee bit close and our teacher didn't tell me about the gas until I started breathing it and my lungs were burning hehhehheh....He just said "Yes, that's the sodium hydroxide gas reacting with your flesh!"

Sorry if I'm off topic here, but what have you guys done in your chem classes? We made thermite and ice cream a few weeks ago...fun fun fun! :p

[junior]

Originally posted by zuggerat
i dont know why apple is worrying about getting fuel cells into laptops. they have just released a new chip they should be putting all their resources into R&D, mainly making the chip run efficiently enough to put it into the powerbook in the quickest possible time frame. they already have some of the best battery lifes on the markets for their top of the line laptops. look at a fully featured dells and they'll get at most 2 and a half hours and the G4 powerbooks can get anywhere from 4 and a half to 5 hours depending on the model. they have yet to even get the G5 running cool enough to put it into the powerbook (according to what we have all been told). i think they need to straighten out their priorities.

1. get the G5 running at extremely low watts per hour 25-40 and then...

2. go for the big one...10 hour+ battery life...

i agree with an older post that this should be more along the lines of 2nd page story...not that its not important...but just that the technology is so far off it's not having a huge impact on the market currently




Toshiba's talking about releasing fuel celled notebooks in 2004. Thats more or less only 1 year away, so I think it is indeed front page worthy.

[i_am_a_cow]

some people are dumb as hell! lol, how old are youguys? too bad. i hope you are younger than 7. good luck living.

[LostPacket]

Originally posted by acj
Are you sure hydrogen just floated away? Lighter than air doesn't mean negative weight and doesn't mean it's not affected by gravity.

I guess hydrogen is so light that when it floats to the upper atmosphere, the molecules bounce around so much that some reach escape velocity. The atmosphere continually leaks the stuff.

[mattmack]

Originally posted by toes
"Lol. Hydrogen is NOT that inert. If it were, the Hindenburg never would've caught on fire there would never be any hydrogen explosions."

The Hindenburg Combustion was caused by the paint coat used on the skin.;)

Go here for more: http://www.vidicom-tv.com/tohiburg.htm Whatever caused the spark the H2 in the hindenburg fueled the fire H2 reacts with O2 to create H2o and a heck of a lot of energy. The major obstacle to the fuel cell was the question of how to contain the violent reaction of hydrogen and oxygen. It is a very pure reaction with the only product (besides energy) being water at any temperature. Unlike Octanes which put out more CO at higher reation temps. The Hindenburg disaster is the major reason blimps switched to Helium because it is a noble or inert gas. And FYI the US is the largest produce of H2 I believe they mine it in Texas

[i_am_a_cow]

Originally posted by acj
You are right about how fuel cells work, but they indirectly pollute just like electric cars. Hyrdrogen is hard to find just laying around, so it must be created. Often times with electricity, or refined from a hydrocarbon fuel source.

Are you sure hydrogen just floated away? Lighter than air doesn't mean negative weight and doesn't mean it's not affected by gravity.

Hydrogen DOES escape the atmosphere at a fairly fast rate (which, fyi, is one reason that the earth is YOUNG).

[Telomar]

Originally posted by LostPacket
While the elemental form of hydrogen is quite reactive, the molecular form (H2) is not. H2 is very stable and reacts with few compounds in the atmosphere. The fact that it's flammable has little to do with its reactivity in general.

Although its reaction with oxygen is spontaneous, it's very slow due to the high activation energy. This is why a catalyst is required within the fuel cell; to pull apart the stable H2 molecule into its individual (and reactive) atoms.

Thus, most of the hydrogen will escape into space long before it has a chance to react with anything in the atmosphere. You realise flammability is just a function of the reactivity of the oxidation of the molecule right? ie. Highly flammable generally equates to higher oxidation rates. The only issue is activation energy, which for hydrogen is relatively easily obtainable especially in higher reaches of the atmosphere.

The average molecular velocity for Hydrogen at 273K only works out at around 1 100 m/s or a touch below Mach 4, well below escape velocities. Yes you get some leakage of ionised Hydrogen but Hydrogen is so incredibly reactive once it hits upper atmosphere (you do realise how easy it is to split molecular hydrogen right?) there's a good chance it's going to react and drop to lower heights.

Even the Hydrogen that does escape then is in a balance with that carried from solar winds.

[Sedulous]

I too was curious how all the water vapor would effect the climate. One would think we'd get more rain/humidity.

As I understand, the more recent developments into H-cells uses a reaction of hydrogen with a metallic catalyst. However, liquid hydrogen is really, really cold.

"Lol. Hydrogen is NOT that inert. If it were, the Hindenburg never would've caught on fire there would never be any hydrogen explosions."

Well, actually, pure hydrogen won't burn. Yet when mixed with an oxidizer (such as oxygen) you can have quite a fireball. Much like calcium carbide won't burn on its own... although mixed with water it will produce acetylene... a gas that burns very hot (and often used to cut metal).

[Marble]

Hydrogen is much less dangerous a addition to the atmosephere than carbon dioxide. The natural balance for carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is much easier to disrupt because there is a great deal less of it than hydrogen.
In addition, though it is flammable, it will not pool on the ground like gasoline fumes. It is lighter than air and acts like it.
This is a really cool technology that could do a great deal to solve some of the world's most terrible problems. It's a decentralized alternative to oil. Perfect for third world nations that are with good reason suspicious of multinational power companies and for other countries dependent on oil barons for their power. It's cheap and you can build them in your garage. Oh yeah, and for laptops :).
Too bad the clean, safe, and easy methods of electrolysis aren't nearly as clear-cut.

[topicolo]

I totally agree. Almost of the hydrogen that does escape into the atmosphere would react with the O2 in it to create water over a short period of time as it rises through the atmosphere. You can prove that to yourself by filling up a balloon with hydrogen and oxygen and heating it up. Don't forget to put your ear right next to the balloon :).

[topicolo]

Originally posted by MacViolinist
A friend of mine threw a 2 liter bottle of sodium ....

That's funny, sodium is a solid metal...

[sparkplug]

Ha maybe he meant the bottle was made of sodium ! yeah thats it! bottle OF sodium...like....sorta... ;)

[MacManDan]

(Off topic a little) Speaking of sodium ... my school has a party every year where some people get the biggest chunk of sodium they can find (I think last year's was close to 50 pounds) and throw it in the local River ...

But about hydrogen: I believe some (but not a whole lot) escapes. Some also forms pocket of H30 (by reacting with moisture in the atmosphere) to form what we know as Ozone.

[acj]

Originally posted by i_am_a_cow
Hydrogen DOES escape the atmosphere at a fairly fast rate (which, fyi, is one reason that the earth is YOUNG).

OK, thanks. It's easier to absorb someone elses knowlage than to research by myself!


As for what am I talking about, did you mean how do electric cars pollute? Well the power plant required to provide electricity most likely pollutes, and it takes as much power to drive an electric car on a highway as 15-30 average houses use. 1HP = about 750 watts, and an aerodynamic car can go 60MPH with about 20-30 HP. So an electric car is using about 20,000 watts, and many houses average around 2,000 watts.

[NNO-Stephen]

Toshiba is doing pretty good, they just need to refine their forumla to get more baattery life out of it.

best thing from the article on the INQ.
* PLEASE NOTE Do not attempt to drink the content of these cartridges. Methanol is very toxic and may make you blind. The alcohol in wine is ethanol - the "m" makes all the difference.

hahaha! :D

[cooper13]

Originally posted by MacManDan
(Off topic a little) Speaking of sodium ... my school has a party every year where some people get the biggest chunk of sodium they can find (I think last year's was close to 50 pounds) and throw it in the local River ...

But about hydrogen: I believe some (but not a whole lot) escapes. Some also forms pocket of H30 (by reacting with moisture in the atmosphere) to form what we know as Ozone.

Wow, that's a lot of sodium--and very dangerous (think a decent bomb). What town in Mass, btw? Maybe I'll have to come check it out.

Anyway, ozone is O3, not H3O!

And again for everyone else, note my post above: molecular hydrogen (H2) would rise through the atmosphere and in the stratosphere would be broken into atomic or ionized hydrogen by solar UV radiation, which would combine with oxygen to create water (cooling the stratosphere in the process). By itself, this water is harmless, but the cooling of the stratosphere could result in the breakdown of ozone (again, O3) and exacerbation of the ozone holes in the Antarctic and Arctic.

[cooper13]

Originally posted by topicolo
That's funny, sodium is a solid metal...

Sodium is typically stored in glycerin, as it reacts with water vapor in the atmosphere (very favorable reaction!). So perhaps the bottle held the solid sodium in liquid glycerin.

And yes, I remember our teacher's demo from those high school days (somewhat) long ago (well, 12 years anyway). I also recalll the story she told us of a friend who worked in another school district. Said school district hired a new chemistry teacher who proceeded to clean the stockroom of old, nasty stuff by stupidly flushing it down the toilet (highly illegal--and nowadays the EPA is cracking down). Anyway, you all can figure out what happened with the unlabeled bottle of sodium. The commode was no longer attached to the floor, and the teacher no longer had a job.

[Makosuke]

I'm rather late to this discussion, but I wanted to confirm and reiterate a few points that have already been brought up, as well as add a bit.

For reference, I work at a small fuel cell research lab in the US, so I have some idea what I'm talking about. There is one running on a test bench about 8 feet behind my head as I write this, and 3 more stacks capable of producing ~1KW each within sight of where I'm sitting.

That said, the fuel cells that will go into laptops are unlikely to be the same type as the ones that will go into cars or power plants (which are the type I work with). They are more likely to be something more along the lines of a hydrogen battery--still a closed process, but that can be run in reverse to "charge" it off of electric current (plugging your PB into the wall).

There would be no external waste, and no fuel added--the theoretical advantage being more stored power.

You could also run a fuel cell off of stored hydrogen cartridges, or a hydorcarbon like methanol or maybe butane. Hydrogen could be stored in a hydride, which would prevent any major leakage, stores a lot of hydrogen at low pressure, and in fact gets colder as you suck hydrogen out of it, so it could actually be used as active cooling.

In the case of hydrocarbon fuels, you would drop in a little fuel cartridge, which would make for uber-fast recharges, nearly limitless carryable power storage, but a distribution problem--you'd probably want an internal battery as an alternative, maybe something you could swap out.

In any of the above cases, the fuel cell is not likely to run very hot, probably no more so than a battery being charged now, and maybe cooler. The amount of water produced would be very small, and would be in a vapor form; I assume it would be stored internally (in the fuel cartridge as it emptied), or it could just be exhausted out the back as a tiny warm, moist airstream--it'd be less moisture produced than when you exhale, so it wouldn't exactly be dripping out the back.

One thing is for sure: these are on the way, and they're going to happen. As pointed Toshiba, as well as NEC and several other companies are well along in the development process, and I'd look for refined versions in a few years max. This is not second page news, it's the cutting edge.

Lastly, a couple general notes about hydrogen as a fuel: It isn't a fuel, it's an energy storage medium (some people here understand that, many don't seem to). You make it with something, then react it with oxygen to make water and electricity. You can extract hydrogen from a carbon (usually fossil) fuel, or you can make it from water by putting energy in (more than you get back out later, but that's the cost of energy storage). Ideally, you'll be getting hydrogen electrolyzed from water using renewable energy, in which case the environmental impact would be minimal.

Hydrogen is actually a reasonably safe fuel, and the FAA has already started to make concessions for carrying hydrogen powered laptops on planes. Likewise, as pointed out, the Hindenburg didn't explode because of the hydrogen, it was a rocket fuel coating on its skin. The burning hydrogen after the explosion went straight up, not injuring anybody.

And the ozone issue brought up by that Cal Tech study is based on accurate science, but highly questionable in pratice--the leak rate they assumed is nearly 10 times what would be realistic, and a simple catalyst on the vent would prevent ANY hydrogen from leaving a system.

You'll be seeing major consumer use of hydrogen within 20 years, and laptops may well be at the forefront much sooner. I hope Apple is front and center.

[Skull Leader]

Originally posted by noverflow
Last time i checked, hydrogen had one valance electron.

also, when hydrogen is hit by cosmic rays we get mesons, and they only last for a few ms... so here is an other reason there is so little hydrogen in out atmosphere

Fascinating - Spock

[LostPacket]

Originally posted by Makosuke
I'm rather late to this discussion, but I wanted to confirm and reiterate a few points that have already been brought up, as well as add a bit.


Wow. Thanks for the summary Makosuke.

If the cell ends up being a closed system, I assume the water produced would be electrolyzed when you plug it in to be recharged. Do you know what form the hydrogen would most likely be in? Gas, hydride, trapped in a zeolite or something similar?

[MacManDan]

Originally posted by cooper13
Wow, that's a lot of sodium--and very dangerous (think a decent bomb). What town in Mass, btw? Maybe I'll have to come check it out.

Anyway, ozone is O3, not H3O!

Oops, you're right about that one. I knew it was something along those lines .. but this is why I'm not a chem major! :p Argh, there goes my credibility. ;)

Anyway, my school is in Boston (well, Cambridge actually) .. and although I didn't attend, I heard that the explosion/fireball was quite large... (and very impressive). I'm gonna get in touch with a friend of mine and make sure it really was 50 lbs... ;)

Makosuke: do you happen to know what % the efficiency is at for these fuel cells?

[cooper13]

makosuke, nice post. I agree that the Caltech study was a worst case scenario, and personally I am very in favor of the use of fuel cells and hydrogen. You said that you could put a catalyst on the vent to prevent leakage, but I thought their study assumed most leakage from pipelines, transfers, etc.--although I don't recall right off.

At any rate, the commentary in Science did note others who stated (as you have) that the leakage rates assumed are extreme (and it also assumes that ALL cars are powered by fuel cells). Plus, there are lots of ways to minimize the amount of leakage, so this problem shouldn't be a show-stopper. I mainly kept banging away at it to correct some of the misconceptions stated earlier in this thread.

[Makosuke]

If the cell ends up being a closed system, I assume the water produced would be electrolyzed when you plug it in to be recharged. Do you know what form the hydrogen would most likely be in? Gas, hydride, trapped in a zeolite or something similar?

My lab only works with larger H2-in H2O-out fuel cells, so I can't say for sure what form the hydrogen would be stored in, and I can't find the article I most recently read, so I can't check what the companies working on these are using. My offhand guess would be a hydride, since the technology is relatively mature, although hydrides are also water sensitive so pressurized gas is also quite possible, since a fuel cell run backwards (a solid-electrode electrolyzer, that is) can produce hydorgen at several hundred PSI in theory.

Makosuke: do you happen to know what % the efficiency is at for these fuel cells?

I'm not sure about embedded-size fuel cells, but in general current efficiency figures run somewhere in the 50% to 60% range for hydrogen in to electricity out. Higher numbers are theoretically possible, but I expect that's the vicinity for a laptop style cell/stack.

Of course, the power-in-to-power-out efficiency of a system would be quite a bit lower (especially for a closed-loop fuel cell charged while a laptop was plugged in--electrolysis runs somewhere from 50-85% efficient, depending on the technology). But when you're talking about very small amounts of juice in the grand scheme of things and more power density in storage, the wire-to-wire efficiency isn't all that important.

This is getting rather off topic, and I apologize, but if you want a fuel cell powered portable right now, my lab has built several demonstration prototype suitcase-sized portable generators that'll put out enough juice for a low power desktop and LCD monitor, or a laptop (running off AC in this case). The system is built for neither compactness (the opposite, in fact), nor efficiency in running a computer, but you can run a laptop for probably a couple hours off a 0.5-liter bottle of hydrogen, and maybe three times that off a hydride cylinder of the same size:

http://www.humboldt.edu/~serc/stackinabox.html

[wrayr]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3031870.stm