667 tibook vs 600 ibook...

[krossfyter]

http://www.powerbookcentral.com/features/ibvspbmacos9.shtml


for those who care. dont flame me for this post.

[Beej]

That's surprising. I thought there'd be a bigger difference. I guess none of the tasks are all that processor intensive, that's where the G4 PowerBook will shine over the G3 iBook.

[krossfyter]

im with you there. it seems like it was a basic general test. both puters have an l2 cache right? but both dont have the same speed bus im sure...this is the big difference as well as the obvious g4 g3 difference.

[jefhatfield]

hey, like some of you rich or middle class kids living at home...buy both...really

when you get out on your own, you will see how hard that is to do and i miss those days when i was a kid and lived at home and got to play with the new toys (apple II+ and IIe) that my dad brought home...i didn't even have to ponder the price for a second

...which leads me to the conclusion, for the vast majority of us in the working world, the ibook 600 is enough for us:p

[DakotaGuy]

See the G3 still has a little life to it...it is just in need of a much needed speed boost of 300 to 400 MHz which is possible.

I think you would notice a little more difference running the two systems on OSX since the OS is designed to take advantage of the velocity engine in the G4.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the only major difference from the G3 to the G4 is the velocity engine or alti-vec? Also doesn't the G3 actually have fewer pipeline stages then the G4...or am I wrong? I don't know about that stuff, only heard a shorter pipeline in a processor can be an advantage.

[DakotaGuy]

Oh yeah...I'd still love to see an iBook with an IBM 750cx running at 1GHz up against the Moto 667Mhz G4 even in OSX.

[eyelikeart]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
hey, like some of you rich or middle class kids living at home...buy both...really

when you get out on your own, you will see how hard that is to do and i miss those days when i was a kid and lived at home and got to play with the new toys (apple II+ and IIe) that my dad brought home...i didn't even have to ponder the price for a second

...which leads me to the conclusion, for the vast majority of us in the working world, the ibook 600 is enough for us:p

my TiBook is completely sufficient for everything I do....I do admit I'd like more RAM....but I have other things I need take care of beforehand.....plus I just purchased a camera....

nice point though jefhatfield...when I was prepared to order my TiBook.....I sold off my old system.....sold most of a rare record collection on ebay.....and used my income tax return to pay in full....and I did it all with knowledge I'd be having this thing for the next few years easy.....so no worries! :p

[buffsldr]

Originally posted by krossfyter
http://www.powerbookcentral.com/features/ibvspbmacos9.shtml


for those who care. dont flame me for this post.

I really enjoyed the comparisons. I found it very relevant to my current purchasing questions about the differences. Thanks for posting it. Why would someone flame you for it? The article clearly says the comparisons are for basic tasks (with few exceptions, eg. the pshop test).

[mac15]

how about crystallising somthing in photoshop and see how the ibook goes then

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by buffsldr


I really enjoyed the comparisons. I found it very relevant to my current purchasing questions about the differences. Thanks for posting it. Why would someone flame you for it? The article clearly says the comparisons are for basic tasks (with few exceptions, eg. the pshop test).


people usually flame around here for the oddest reasons so i never know who is going to get mad (being that im trying all the time to be nice to people)...i got a mis directed flame once.

[MacAztec]

Lets take a peek of what you get for the price:

iBook: 14in Screen, 600MHz Processor G3, Combo Drive, 20GB Hard Drive (or is it 30?)
Errrmmmm...extras.

Powerbook: (From Apple Special Savings Store)
15in Screen, 550MHz G4, DVD Drive only, 20GB, 100MHz Bus

[MacAztec]

Meant to be added to my last post

iBook's Price: 1699
PowerBooks Price: 1799

I honestly think the iBook is a way better buy unless you are a serious hard-core graphic designer type person. People say they are, but most don't really need the power.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by MacAztec (formerly Mac_User)
Meant to be added to my last post

iBook's Price: 1699
PowerBooks Price: 1799

I honestly think the iBook is a way better buy unless you are a serious hard-core graphic designer type person. People say they are, but most don't really need the power.


true. it is relative to your needs and your dont needs for the most part.

i sure as hell needed the power and portability. so i got the 667. i had an ibook already and i was through with it. the only thing i miss was the durability of the ibook as oppose to the ti....but thats a small price to pay. just got to be more careful. i have never regreted my tibook purchase since.

to jefhatfield... i used my job income and i sold off my guitar amp (that i didnt need anymore, and my ibook sale to get a tibook). i worked hard trying to get this thing.

[cb911]

all these tests and stuff are in seconds. i guess thats alright for the average user, but does anyone know where to find any stuff about testing things like render time in hours?

[mcrain]

Krossfyter, just so you don't feel like you were cheated, here's a flame for you.

You're bad, how dare you do that. Flame, flame, flame!!!

Ok, now that that is done, thanks for the post. I'm in the market for a laptop, and I was debating between the ti and the i books. I would echo the request for some benchmark testing between the two notebooks that are a little more "scientific," however, in the mean time, thanks again.

[buffsldr]

Originally posted by mcrain
Krossfyter, just so you don't feel like you were cheated, here's a flame for you.

You're bad, how dare you do that. Flame, flame, flame!!!

Ok, now that that is done, thanks for the post. I'm in the market for a laptop, and I was debating between the ti and the i books. I would echo the request for some benchmark testing between the two notebooks that are a little more "scientific," however, in the mean time, thanks again.

Yo Mcrain.... I am also in the market for a laptop and have the same type questions. But I have read a lot about the comparisons on this site and others and this is about the best I have found. Bottom line is this, if you are going to use your comp as a consumer, the 600 is plenty snappy in both 10 and 9, but if you intend on getting lots of apps open and doing some pro work, you may be disappointed in the ibook.

I know this and I am a consumer, but what concerns me is that the ibook may be fine today, but for how long?

[jefhatfield]

i am glad that some of you on this board had to make some sacrifices and work for your tibook...that way you will appreciate it more

the g4s and p4s at the school i am at are abused because the students have no idea how much they cost and they figure it belongs to the school, so what the heck?

the computers are so abuased that the school has to purchase them which leaves them in debt for years so the next time they will be ready to buy new machines, there will be g7s and pentium 7s and the last two years of students will be using super antiquated gear

computer science students are already taught the wrong stuff in the first place and making them use old gear and old operating systems does not help their cause...i am a silicon valley tech and network engineer and after three years, i am yet to meet any techie with a computer science bachelor's degree

i have, however, met a few techies with an associate's degree because a lot of the "trade" related colleges are far more concerned with teaching what's in the real IT world and always like to use the latest current gear...their high tuitions could get the best teachers and gear and that is a plus (not using old gear and having professors with phd's who have never once had a real IT job outside of teaching pure computer theory)

[GigaWire]

the g4s and p4s at the school i am at are abused because the students have no idea how much they cost and they figure it belongs to the school, so what the heck?

Not only is the treatment ppor at best, most students think the computers are their own personal machines, thus installing all sorts of junk every week. seriously, they'd fill up 80 GB drives in 2 weeks easily with their progs, but mostly with the .mp3s, videos and other crap they were so kindly sharing. One guy even asked if he could setup a counterstrike server. we finally got so sick of it, that we completely locked out any install features.

[AmbitiousLemon]

ok well i thought this thread needed a voice of reason because you guys dont seem to be reading closely enough. that test was done in mac os 9!!!

if you take a look at the same test in mac os 10 which is linked to on that page you will see the ibook is having some major problems keeping up.

just more evidence that osx changed the scene and the g3 is not up to the task.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by GigaWire


Not only is the treatment ppor at best, most students think the computers are their own personal machines, thus installing all sorts of junk every week. seriously, they'd fill up 80 GB drives in 2 weeks easily with their progs, but mostly with the .mp3s, videos and other crap they were so kindly sharing. One guy even asked if he could setup a counterstrike server. we finally got so sick of it, that we completely locked out any install features.

in that way, they do treat the machines like their own...in the unix class, which i guess must be so boring, the back row has the hard drives full of rated x avi and mpegs and they store them on the school's server...one would think that the admins would toss them off the hard drive, but mysteriously, these admins (all men) seem to keep the x-rated stuff around

those "movies" take up a lot of hard drive space and make our dual t1 look like a 56k dialup:p

i still don't know if i want to teach there or take on a tech related job and help these poor, abused machines at the college...when i can and when no one is looking, i do fix some stuff since the cisco class forgets to "put everything back the way it was"...it must be that they missed third grade and i bet these same wanna be techies never put the toilet seat up...i call for diapers for the cisco students and an id card signifying one's 18th birthday for the unix class:D

[Gelfin]

Main Topic: Most of the tasks listed in that test wouldn't really be impacted much by the G4's Velocity Engine. For launching apps and opening files, accessing the hard drive takes the vast majority of the total time, and the PB has basically the same HD as the iBook. Aqua is Altivec-aware, and having a G4 makes a marked difference in responsiveness of the GUI in general.

[Mr. Anderson]

dare i say rendering?

whether an iMovie or 3D, the difference would be much more pronounced

[jefhatfield]

a pentium 3 laptop around 1.2 ghz and a pentium 4 laptop around 1.6/1.7 ghz do many tasks about the same speed...it is only when rendering graphics where the difference comes into play

the magazine, laptop or pc magazine, basically said that there is no reason to go for the p4 unless one wants to render big graphics files...and the point of the article and this thread (this is where this relates) is, "how many laptop people are going to do their big rendering on a laptop?"...though i could see the mac side laptop users doing it more than the pc side laptop users

but in the past couple of years (almost) that i have seen posters on macrumors talk rendering and graphic design, it seemed to be somewhat more related to desktop talk

but maybe one day, someday, more graphic designers will do more work from home or on the road (with clients) using a powerbook of some sort as opposed to using their desktop workstation with the giant sony crt

i have heard that the crt is still the only fully (color management) reliable way to see an image but lcd technology will eventually catch up to this need, if there is even a need for lcd's and color management

[AmbitiousLemon]

well it seems to have gone ignored so i will say it again. the same test conducted by the same people using osx instead of the os9. the powerbook blows the ibook away. ibook is left in the dust spinning its wheels at nearly all the tasks.

o and gelfin you are basically right. in os9 none of these tasks use velocity engine. this changes drastically in osx. (o and about the same drive... not so true, the powerbook uses a 5400rpm drive while the ibook uses a 4200rpm drive, may not sound like much but it makes a HUGE difference).

taking the two tests into account i woudl have to conclude if you are only planning on using os9 and not doing any heavy photoshop or fcp work then get the ibook. if you use osx and/or do heavy photoshop and fcp work then get the powerbook because the ibook sucks at these things.

just more proof that in a osx world the g3 just doesnt cut it.

[jefhatfield]

some posters even say don't get os x unless you have a g4 processor!

i don't know about that, but i have heard of people with half a gig of ram (in ibook) who don't like it running os x

[AmbitiousLemon]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
some posters even say don't get os x unless you have a g4 processor!

i don't know about that, but i have heard of people with half a gig of ram (in ibook) who don't like it running os x

dude are you blind? did you look at the osx comparison for the ibook versus the powerbook? i hate when people comment without reading the article. the ibook is left in the dust by the powerbook for simple desktop level tasks. seems pretty clear to me that one shouldnt get osx unless you have a g4. this article seems to be the best evidence of it we have been given to date.

[Gelfin]

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
(o and about the same drive... not so true, the powerbook uses a 5400rpm drive while the ibook uses a 4200rpm drive, may not sound like much but it makes a HUGE difference)

Yeah, I stand corrected. I thought they were using the same drives in both systems.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon


dude are you blind? did you look at the osx comparison for the ibook versus the powerbook? i hate when people comment without reading the article. the ibook is left in the dust by the powerbook for simple desktop level tasks. seems pretty clear to me that one shouldnt get osx unless you have a g4. this article seems to be the best evidence of it we have been given to date.

actually, i am in total agreement with you, in the context of os x, and how the g4 is superior in speed

i only have a rev. a ibook so i am going to still stay with os 9 but i do hope to get a mac with a g4 processor so i too could move forward...someday

[DakotaGuy]

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon


dude are you blind? did you look at the osx comparison for the ibook versus the powerbook? i hate when people comment without reading the article. the ibook is left in the dust by the powerbook for simple desktop level tasks. seems pretty clear to me that one shouldnt get osx unless you have a g4. this article seems to be the best evidence of it we have been given to date.

Okay like that was a fair match up. Did you even notice that the PowerBook was running 512MB RAM and the iBook only had 128MB? Am I an idiot or doesn't that much more RAM help any system in OSX?

Overall the finder functions and program opening are not that much faster in OSX for the top of the line Powerbook. Yeah scrolling in word was bad on the iBook and it did take more time to move into the classic environment...but I still think if the iBook was packing the same 512MB that the TiBook was it would do better. Also the iBook has a slower HD which makes a hell of a difference. If the RAM was matched and the HD was matched...would the TiBook be that much better? Maybe a bit...but not living up to the claims that some people on here say...Like the people that try and tell me my iBook is a piece of crap and their TiBook is twice as fast...twice as fast at what? Maybe Photoshop...which I don't even use.

Now I was thinking...if the iBook was running the same 512 MB RAM as the TiBook...considering how close it ran to the TiBook in OS9 tests...I wonder if the outcome would have been changed.

[Choppaface]

I had a 250 meg doc open in photoshop 6 today on my G3 PB lombard (400mhz, 384 RAM, PS6 only had 100 megs of ram given to it too). at one point I was down from 1.6 gigs free to 20 megs free from scratch use. and the thing held up, even after slapping it closed, putting it to sleep, several times over the day with the file along with soundjam open in the background. was pretty quick too, at least faster than I thought it might be. all it takes is a little patience and your G3 will become a G4 with no extra cost :D :D

[cb911]

thats right! all you need is a little patience and your G3 will be just like a G4. that massive document will seem to open in a matter of seconds, but don't look at the clock. your fun will be ruined when you realise it took an hour!!! :p

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
hey, like some of you rich or middle class kids living at home...buy both...really

when you get out on your own, you will see how hard that is to do and i miss those days when i was a kid and lived at home and got to play with the new toys (apple II+ and IIe) that my dad brought home...i didn't even have to ponder the price for a second
Why, when I was a boy, my parents could barely afford to keep me fed or to put shoes on my feet, much less buy me a computer! My brother and I had to trod 20 miles to school in 70-below-zero temperatures, through 3-foot-deep snow drifts and howling, typhoon-like winds! The trip was uphill, both ways, mind you, and we were without shoes or even coats to cover our backs! And we liked it. We loved it! The gangrene and tuberculosis that followed were not enough to dampen our spirits.

Why, I remember at Christmas, my brother and I would awaken early to discover we had each a ripe apple and four plump jelly-beans in our stockings! We had to work even on Christmas, though. We would chop fire-wood and clean the out-house, and after pa had slaughtered dinner, we would skin it and gut it. Ahh, those were the days! My brother and I were nary young muskrats, living hand-to-mouth, and we liked it. We loved it. We savored every gosh-darn minute of it!

Kids these days, I tell you, they don't know what it's like to have to break their backs for every nickel they earn. My first job was at the age of 13, loading hay onto the tractor for a fellow farmer of pa's. At the end of each day, this farmer would say, "Look here," and I would open my hand and into it would drop a shiny dime. "Now, you save this, you hear?" He would say. And I did just that. By the time I was 15, I had almost forty dollars all saved up. Kids these days, they can throw forty dollars around like they can a rusted bottle-cap, but I sure as sam-hill couldn't! I had to earn it! I had to work for it! And I liked it. I loved it. Kids these days, I tell you, they don't understand.

Alex (That's MISTER Alex to you, sonny)

[buffsldr]

Originally posted by alex_ant

Why, when I was a boy, my parents could barely afford to keep me fed or to put shoes on my feet, much less buy me a computer! My brother and I had to trod 20 miles to school in 70-below-zero temperatures, through 3-foot-deep snow drifts and howling, typhoon-like winds! The trip was uphill, both ways, mind you, and we were without shoes or even coats to cover our backs! And we liked it. We loved it! The gangrene and tuberculosis that followed were not enough to dampen our spirits.

Why, I remember at Christmas, my brother and I would awaken early to discover we had each a ripe apple and four plump jelly-beans in our stockings! We had to work even on Christmas, though. We would chop fire-wood and clean the out-house, and after pa had slaughtered dinner, we would skin it and gut it. Ahh, those were the days! My brother and I were nary young muskrats, living hand-to-mouth, and we liked it. We loved it. We savored every gosh-darn minute of it!

Kids these days, I tell you, they don't know what it's like to have to break their backs for every nickel they earn. My first job was at the age of 13, loading hay onto the tractor for a fellow farmer of pa's. At the end of each day, this farmer would say, "Look here," and I would open my hand and into it would drop a shiny dime. "Now, you save this, you hear?" He would say. And I did just that. By the time I was 15, I had almost forty dollars all saved up. Kids these days, they can throw forty dollars around like they can a rusted bottle-cap, but I sure as sam-hill couldn't! I had to earn it! I had to work for it! And I liked it. I loved it. Kids these days, I tell you, they don't understand.

Alex (That's MISTER Alex to you, sonny)



LOL. That is awesome. Jeff you are seriously condescending at times. Do me a favor and drop the superiority bit. Cool? You dont know who we are or what are circumstances are and it comes across as arrogant to me.

[cb911]

sure the comparisons would be ok for an average user, but someone should do some hard-core testing for those of us that need the extra speed and power.:D

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by buffsldr




LOL. That is awesome. Jeff you are seriously condescending at times. Do me a favor and drop the superiority bit. Cool? You dont know who we are or what are circumstances are and it comes across as arrogant to me.

sorry about that...i was once young, too;)

we don't get superior with our old age, we just have to visit the toilet more...sometimes getting older sucks...if i could trade places with some of the really young people here, i would do it in a second...so call me jealous if anything:p

note: if i get condescending enough and maybe even become a flame war poster, will i take over spikey's spot? actually i used to be the neutral one here two years ago but i love to pick on the eight year olds here who claim to be teens...he he...and i have acceess to a router and can trace anyone's packet/frame down their ip and mac address and find out who you really are...it's a trick one of the old posters here showed me (and it's not really considered hacking) but for the few here who REALLY know me, please don't tell anybody how OLD i really am...i hope you realize it's all in fun and i hope i didn't offend anybody

[StealthRider]

Originally posted by jefhatfield
i am glad that some of you on this board had to make some sacrifices and work for your tibook...that way you will appreciate it more

the g4s and p4s at the school i am at are abused because the students have no idea how much they cost and they figure it belongs to the school, so what the heck?

the computers are so abuased that the school has to purchase them which leaves them in debt for years so the next time they will be ready to buy new machines, there will be g7s and pentium 7s and the last two years of students will be using super antiquated gear


You're right about that. My school was using 5400 and 5500 PowerMacs for two years when I came into my school and they had been using them for 4 years before that.....Schools are so STUPID, they waste their money on textbooks when you can get ibooks/imacs and access so much more data-my school has no plan to sway from the old CRT iMacs, we have only 3 G4s in the whole school, and I HATE THIS PLACE!!!!

[StealthRider]

Originally posted by alex_ant

Why, when I was a boy, my parents could barely afford to keep me fed or to put shoes on my feet, much less buy me a computer! My brother and I had to trod 20 miles to school in 70-below-zero temperatures, through 3-foot-deep snow drifts and howling, typhoon-like winds! The trip was uphill, both ways, mind you, and we were without shoes or even coats to cover our backs! And we liked it. We loved it! The gangrene and tuberculosis that followed were not enough to dampen our spirits.

Why, I remember at Christmas, my brother and I would awaken early to discover we had each a ripe apple and four plump jelly-beans in our stockings! We had to work even on Christmas, though. We would chop fire-wood and clean the out-house, and after pa had slaughtered dinner, we would skin it and gut it. Ahh, those were the days! My brother and I were nary young muskrats, living hand-to-mouth, and we liked it. We loved it. We savored every gosh-darn minute of it!

Kids these days, I tell you, they don't know what it's like to have to break their backs for every nickel they earn. My first job was at the age of 13, loading hay onto the tractor for a fellow farmer of pa's. At the end of each day, this farmer would say, "Look here," and I would open my hand and into it would drop a shiny dime. "Now, you save this, you hear?" He would say. And I did just that. By the time I was 15, I had almost forty dollars all saved up. Kids these days, they can throw forty dollars around like they can a rusted bottle-cap, but I sure as sam-hill couldn't! I had to earn it! I had to work for it! And I liked it. I loved it. Kids these days, I tell you, they don't understand.

Alex (That's MISTER Alex to you, sonny)

Shut up PLEASE! No more of that "grandpa" stuff or you will get seriously flamed....

[alex_ant]

Originally posted by StealthRider
Shut up PLEASE! No more of that "grandpa" stuff or you will get seriously flamed....
Pfft, bring it on.

And sorry Jeff, I hope you realize I was only having a laugh. :)

Alex

[krossfyter]

ooh crap... i hear a flame war comming on...



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[AmbitiousLemon]

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy


Okay like that was a fair match up. Did you even notice that the PowerBook was running 512MB RAM and the iBook only had 128MB? Am I an idiot or doesn't that much more RAM help any system in OSX?

Overall the finder functions and program opening are not that much faster in OSX for the top of the line Powerbook. Yeah scrolling in word was bad on the iBook and it did take more time to move into the classic environment...but I still think if the iBook was packing the same 512MB that the TiBook was it would do better. Also the iBook has a slower HD which makes a hell of a difference. If the RAM was matched and the HD was matched...would the TiBook be that much better? Maybe a bit...but not living up to the claims that some people on here say...Like the people that try and tell me my iBook is a piece of crap and their TiBook is twice as fast...twice as fast at what? Maybe Photoshop...which I don't even use.

Now I was thinking...if the iBook was running the same 512 MB RAM as the TiBook...considering how close it ran to the TiBook in OS9 tests...I wonder if the outcome would have been changed.

hey man you acctually read it unlike the other people here. i give you props man. cool.

i agree the ibook would do better with more ram, but the point of this particular test was to compare the devices unalterred as they ship from apple. its not far really to compare a suped up ibook to a factory standard powerbook. saying add more ram is a bit like saying well they are the same speed as long as you make all their hardware comparable. ok i know you arent going that far. you want a far comparison of a g3 versus g4, but we have to deal with what apple gives us. you cant drop a 133mhz bus in an ibook. the playing field wont ever be level, but thats half the point. the ibook just cant compete. what i do believe though is that by dropping a g4 into the ibook you will vastly improve osx performance. and i think you would be hard pressed to disagree. steve jobs has said that osx needs a g4. if you go to apple's website you will find everysingle apple app including osx is optimized for the g4. the cards are just stacked against the g3. thats why we need to get a g4 into the hands of the consumer if we expect the consumer to adopt osx. the only problem standing in the way is the whole "how do we get a g4 chip in an ibook without melting the damn thing." a pretty big hurtle actually. but i think apple will get that g4 in the ibook as soon as they figure out how.

i find it interesting that the people who defend the g3 are the ones with the ibooks. as if they feel they need to protect their machine. no one is meaning to diss your computer. its a kickasss machine. we just want more (as usual). dont take it personally. my main computer is a g3. i use g3s and g4s often. ive done my own speed comparisons. and ive introduced many a g3 and g4 user to osx. typically the g3 users go back to os9 because they find the speed of osx on the g3 to be unacceptable. i think tehse speed comparisons add concrete numbers numbers what many people have experienced. os9 no difference in user interface speed. osx big difference in user interface speed. this holds true on a g4 or a g3 but on the g3 the user interface drops to a speed that is unacceptable to most users. thats why it needs an upgrade as soon as it is technologically possible.

and one quick side not. they used a powerbook with the slower hard drive so teh hard drive speeds were comparable.

for the rest of you i thought i would quote a bit of it for you since clicking a link seems to be far too much effort:

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by alex_ant

Pfft, bring it on.

And sorry Jeff, I hope you realize I was only having a laugh. :)

Alex

i loved it!

i am a redneck from the woods of monterey county and these are very close to the stories we heard from the earlier generation...yeah, i am the token minority here but i am still a joe dirt type of character and your story is a lot closer to the bone than you think:)

if you are from where i am from, you can have a phd from harvard but you are still a country boy and the local paper, who i won't mention, has police reports of dog barkings and people check into the emergency room with "pimples"

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by krossfyter
ooh crap... i hear a flame war comming on...



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hey, krossbuddy, either laptop blows away my 300 mhz ibook or 366 pc laptop...how i wish (hey where is the religious talk lately, i kind of enjoyed it and it was very polite)

jef

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by jefhatfield


hey, krossbuddy, either laptop blows away my 300 mhz ibook or 366 pc laptop...how i wish (hey where is the religious talk lately, i kind of enjoyed it and it was very polite)

jef


so you dug the religious talk aye?!?! cool. so did i. no ones brought it back up so i havent touched it. and yes it was polite ...oddly enough.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by krossfyter



so you dug the religious talk aye?!?! cool. so did i. no ones brought it back up so i havent touched it. and yes it was polite ...oddly enough.

but i think i lost some fans here being one of the christian guys...the atheists and agnostics seemed to outnumber the religionists/new agers/spiritualists two to one and talk of god or a higher power, while turning off some posters who otherwise respected me, did still turn into the biggest and most honest discussion on the internet...or at least on macrumors;)

go god

and go apple inc

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by jefhatfield


but i think i lost some fans here being one of the christian guys...the atheists and agnostics seemed to outnumber the religionists/new agers/spiritualists two to one and talk of god or a higher power, while turning off some posters who otherwise respected me, did still turn into the biggest and most honest discussion on the internet...or at least on macrumors;)

go god

and go apple inc



haha yeah... i deal with this on a daily basis. im used to it. if they hate me because of my faith than it shows how superficial they are.

[AmbitiousLemon]

ok i just had to jump in here.

i would by no means call the religious thread polite. it was "polite" because the people who you insulted left rather than get in a fight over religion on a mac board.

and as for people hating you for your faith, this is not the case. people dislike you for your arrogance, patronizing tone, and closemindedness (is that a word?).

i dont want to exchange words with you over this, but i encourage you to go back and read the thread start to finish. you will find that it became you preaching to everyone else as the insulted slowly drifted away and stopped posting. i hardly felt that was a "polite" conversation but i ignored it and stopped reading.

but please dont bring your condescending high and mighty attitudes into other threads. if you feel a need to preach go to the religion thread (or better yet go to a church!).

some people dont like being reminded of their opression everywhere they go, so play nice or take it outside.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
ok i just had to jump in here.

i would by no means call the religious thread polite. it was "polite" because the people who you insulted left rather than get in a fight over religion on a mac board.

and as for people hating you for your faith, this is not the case. people dislike you for your arrogance, patronizing tone, and closemindedness (is that a word?).

i dont want to exchange words with you over this, but i encourage you to go back and read the thread start to finish. you will find that it became you preaching to everyone else as the insulted slowly drifted away and stopped posting. i hardly felt that was a "polite" conversation but i ignored it and stopped reading.

but please dont bring your condescending high and mighty attitudes into other threads. if you feel a need to preach go to the religion thread (or better yet go to a church!).

some people dont like being reminded of their opression everywhere they go, so play nice or take it outside.

sorry if we offended anybody, that is the job of the religious right and believe me, i get offended by them as much as the next person

...i just think the tone and direction of the thread which i followed very closely, mostly mischief and his views vs. krossfyter and his views, was very polite...realize that both krossfyter and mischief are fellow anti-zealots and speak to each other all the time on these threads LOL:D

[PyroTurtle]

Ti 400 - 640 MB RAM - MAYA Rendering.....i love the G4!

As for the whole religious thing, and its relevance to macrumors.com, well, it's a part fo all of our lives, it's just a plain fact, and if people want to talk about it, then so be it. i'm a christian, and ya God rules (in more way than one)

[krossfyter]

amb. lemon..

sorry you got offended there buddy...

you call it "being preached to".... i call it just conversing....it is realtive. no need to fight about what i was or i wasnt doing since different people will see it differently regardless of what i know i was doing.

its a trip how when people talk about religion and or God and the other one does not like it ...they will deem it bad or negative and call it preaching. not surprising it happens all the time. so what if i did or do preach to you (which i never have or never will intend to).... who gives flying hell about that...as if thats a bad thing...as if it was equivalent to being dipped in the blubonic plaque. get over it.

[buffsldr]

Originally posted by krossfyter
amb. lemon..

sorry you got offended there buddy...

you call it "being preached to".... i call it just conversing....it is realtive. no need to fight about what i was or i wasnt doing since different people will see it differently regardless of what i know i was doing.

its a trip how when people talk about religion and or God and the other one does not like it ...they will deem it bad or negative and call it preaching. not surprising it happens all the time. so what if i did or do preach to you (which i never have or never will intend to).... who gives flying hell about that...as if thats a bad thing...as if it was equivalent to being dipped in the blubonic plaque. get over it.

I am very religious. I commend people for their search for truth and I hope we all find happiness and truth. I feel religion is so deeply personal that it should only be discussed at appropriate times. I respect others right to come to a macrumors web site and not hear my views. Sacred things have a time and a place.

Having said that, I think if religion does come up and people are interested in discussing it, perhaps they should do so elsewhere. Sacred things deserve being discussed in an appropriate manner.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by buffsldr


I am very religious. I commend people for their search for truth and I hope we all find happiness and truth. I feel religion is so deeply personal that it should only be discussed at appropriate times. I respect others right to come to a macrumors web site and not hear my views. Sacred things have a time and a place.

Having said that, I think if religion does come up and people are interested in discussing it, perhaps they should do so elsewhere. Sacred things deserve being discussed in an appropriate manner.


i agree to a point....but someone else brought it up. im never bringing it up. so if someone wants to hit...they best be hitting the right person. im merely engaging in conversation.....thats all. what is wrong with that? if people want to talkt about whatever the hell they want ...who am i to stop them...im not the moderator and most these people complaining about this shiznit arent either.... so unless the mod (ARN or blakespot) says to stop there is nothing wrong with going on about it on here.

[Pepzhez]

My iMac DV-SE (G3, 500 Mhz) isn't exactly Apple spec, as I replaced the original 5400 HD with an (internal) 80 GB 7200 rpm HD (heat does not seem to be an issue; I have carefully checked this) and put 1 GB RAM into the machine.

OS X is quite responsive on it now, and GUI performance is on par with my 933 Mhz G4. I really have no need or desire to go back to OS 9 on the iMac. And, yes, OS X on the souped-up iMac runs as well (if not better) than OS 9 does. (And, yes, I do run FCP 3 and will run Photoshop 7.0 as soon as I can get it.)

Obviously, this is not the type of set-up you can get from Apple, so it does not count for much under the "real world test" rubric. Even so, it does prove that a G3 in tandem with comparable (to G4 machines) hardware can run OS X just fine.

(And, for some reason, rendering in FCP 3 in OS X is faster than rendering in OS 9. Not a dramatic difference, mind you, but a difference nevertheless. Of course rendering on a G4 is dramatically faster, but we are talking about G3 performance here.)

Not trying to flame or be contrary for the sake of it either. I'm merely telling you my personal experience.

[jefhatfield]

i have asked many people who are mac techies and advanced users about whether a g3 machine will take os x, and it gives me hope to hear your experience

my wife and i may plan to replace our 2 1/2 year old ibook with another ibook a year from now...but hopefully by then, the ibook will also have a g4 processor

thanks pepzhez!:)

[Pepzhez]

It is impossible to find any useful info on the net regarding OS X and the G3. All I ever come across is the useless "G3's are old and must die ... besides, Steve says you need a G4" type of hysteria.

With all due respect to Mr. Jobs, I don't think it takes a genius to regard his "OS X requires a G4" statement a tad skeptically. Of course he wants to sell new iMacs, Ti books and G4 towers. Can't blame him for that and I do indeed hope that Apple sells tons of them.

But, as for the rest of us who neither want nor can afford to junk our still perfectly functional G3 machines, what's needed is some unbiased real-world tests. I do not perform benchmarks or the like, but I have been using OS X in my G4 933 Mhz tower, the dual processor 800 Mhz machine I use at work, as well as in my G3 iMac DV-SE.

As stated in my previous post above, I mainly do video work on the Macs (Final Cut Pro 3 and After Effects 5.5) and am using OS X 100% for these operations in all three machines.

As to why I would use FCP in an iMac G3, well, I do find it useful to do smaller edits and video capturing in the iMac while the G4 is doing the more intensive labor (rendering). I use a firewire HD to transfer files between the machines.

Anyway, my real-world experience with OS X on a G3:

1) RAM does indeed make all the difference. Moving up from 256 MB to 1 GB of RAM on the iMac was a huge improvement. A friend of mine is now getting perfectly acceptable FCP 3 performance on OS X on a 400 Mhz iMac DV+ (original 5400 rpm drive) with 640 MB RAM, as good as or better than the performance she gets with it using OS 9.2.

2) The 7200 rpm HD makes things speedier, yes, but OS X was running quite well on the iMac's original 5400 rpm drive.

3) Have not seen this mentioned anywhere else, but the 10.1.3 update made for an improved speed/performance gain with a G3 processor. I did not notice any speed improvements with the G4 machines under 10.1.3, but it is VERY noticeable with a G3.

So, as far as I'm concerned, here is the bottom line on running OS X on a G3:

- So long as you are using 10.1.3 and have plenty of RAM (no less than 512 MB, I'd say), you can expect to have OS X run as well as OS 9.

- Having more RAM is more more crucial than HD speed. 5400 rpm is perfectly acceptable.

- The OS X GUI on a properly equipped G3 machine (RAM, RAM, and more RAM) will be just as responsive as it will be on a G4.

- You will NOT take any performance hits. I am not about to argue about apps taking 1.5 more seconds to open under OS X than they would under OS 9. It isn't a big concern to me, really. (Plus, that's an OS X - not a G3 vs. G4 - issue). I find that some apps (especially Cleaner 5) open IMMEDIATELY in OS X and take much longer in OS 9 (whether you are using a G3 or a G4).

[I never sat here with a stop watch to see if FCP 3 opens a tenth of a second faster in OS 9 than in OS X and I really don't care if it indeed does. Strangely, this is an issue that seems to concern people a great deal, but I'll have to plead ignorance - or just indifference - at this juncture.]

- There is a reason why Apple's specs say OS X will run on a G3 - because it does! And it can run well. Don't listen to Jobs on this score - he'd much rather sell you a new G4 machine than just a box containing OS X for your old G3.

(And I REALLY wish Ambitious Lemon - much as I respect him - would stop trotting out the "Steve sez we all needs a G4" every post. This is a dubious argument, to say the least. I'm sure that whenever G5's finally become available, Jobs will be crowing that we all need THAT to run OS X.)

Yes, I agree - OS X itself still has some growing to do, and it is evolving along quite nicely. But when all is said and done, OS X as it is TODAY will run equally well in a G3 or a G4.

(Apologies for the long post, but I have been frustrated over not finding anything helpful on the net about this issue, so I'm taking full advantage of the opportunity to add my two cents here.)

[PyroTurtle]

Pepzhez, you've got it!
imagine how slow OS X is on a G4 350....the 400 iMac really does go faster! (they sit next to each other...) the 400 wins only after 10.1.3 came out, i'm not sure what exactly they did, but it helped G3's!
to tell you the truth, i think G4's are over-rated in everything but one area and that's openeing multiple apps at once! of everything, that is the thing i love the most. i've never seen any other OS do it so well, i can hit the adobe buttons and they all open at once, instead of one at a time...as well as FCP 3...all opening at once! i love it! anywho, ya, that's more of me gloating about OSX, but, even for "heavy rendering" tasks G3's can do it, all you need is RAM (as Pepzhez said) and a fast HD, the 7200 does make a difference in the end...and also have your internal drive partitioned and have one of the partitions the RAM disk (take 80 GB 7200 RPM drive, 2 GB for RAM, and man it will scream in OSX, well, for a G3 anyway) so ya, it's lat and i'm enoying rambling....have fun!

[Chris Fam]

Originally posted by cb911
all these tests and stuff are in seconds. i guess thats alright for the average user, but does anyone know where to find any stuff about testing things like render time in hours?

Yes. visit www.bearfeats.com (http://www.bearfeats.com) they also have several iBook vs TiBook tests. someone claimed that it's one of best Mac performance comparison site

[AmbitiousLemon]

Originally posted by Chris Fam


Yes. visit www.bearfeats.com (http://www.bearfeats.com) they also have several iBook vs TiBook tests. someone claimed that it's one of best Mac performance comparison site

your link is wrong

http://barefeats.com/