This One is Small, Even By Our Standards

[agreenster]

Hey everyone--its been a while since Ive done any major posting, and i didnt even follow this MW Tokey-yo-yo--but after checking the Apple site, I was bored.

Yay. Added an inch and some resolution on the ol' Cinema Display. Yep. Still more expensive than the computer itself at 3500.00 dollars. Gimme a break. Only want 22 inches? (you sure thats enough?) 2500.00 dollars.

Yay. 2000 songs in your pocket. For 500 bucks. Only want 1000? (are you sure that is enough?) Still 400 bucks.

I know you can get these cheaper through other sources, but its still generally the same across the board, or higher. If Apple wants to increase their market, CUT THE FREAKING PRICES.

You can get an ENTIRE PC for 400-500 bucks. Granted, they arent as stable, cool, or powerful as a Mac, but c'mon, we're talking about a fancy-schmancy walkman. We are BROKE here.

Lastly--Bluetooth. Aaaaaahhhhh. Finally, something cool. I just hope they DO something cool with it.

[eyelikeart]

yeah it was small....but they weren't pushing it as something "BIG"...

the Bluetooth is killer....can't wait to hear some consumer feedback on that one...

and a 10 gig iPod is pretty cool....but it's still too damned expensive!!

I'm considering a 5 gig now that they are the lower end of the totem pole...provided I can get a decent price....he he he :p

[krossfyter]

I see your point...and I feel you man.

But...allow me to qoute Jobs ...from the imac article in Time magazine...


"If prices were all that we cared about, we'd all be driving Hyundais."

[menoinjun]

I'm still pretty psyched about all that came out at MWTokyo. I know that I will never be able to afford the 23 inch display or the 10gig iPod, the fact that they are available is great. Bluetooth is awesome, and I'm glad that Apple jumped on the bandwagon with it. I am interested to see a vid of the keynote to see what steve demo'd it with. (Palm, cell phone?) I was hoping for a 5 gig iPod price drop, but this will just delay my plans on getting one until further notice. (I really don't need one anyhow right now, but it would be cool)

BTW...Does anyone know the transfer speed of Bluetooth? I guess that it can't be faster than 12Mb per second considering that it's a USB adapter.

-Pete

[strider42]

There are two ways to make money as a company. You either go with a low profit margin and sell a lot of products, or you sell fewer and have a larger profit margin. If you go with high sales and a low margin, you become very susceptible to volatile market conditions, and if you don't sell enough because of competition, you're dead in the water. Look at how badly the windows computer makers are doing generally. their low margins and cut throat competition have made almost all off them unprofitable. Meanwhile apple has a lower market share and makes a lot more money than they do. Apple DOESN'T want to increase market share, at least, not as much as people seem to want them to. They aren't gunning for the other 95%, their going for like another 1-2%. There's a lot more money in it because of their strategy as a premium brand. Look at the auto industry, the same thing as happened. Who's making money: BMW, Mercedes ...brands like that. The big three are barely holding their own right now and are only even remotely doing alright because of huge incentives and zero % financing, which is going to kick them in the butts later on. Are apple's products expensive: yeah they are. But that might be the best price for apple to maximize profits. I'm certainly going to trust their economists and business people over the rantings of people who just want their stuff cheaper. Rather, I'd like to see apple move forward with technology. Their industrial design is ahead of everyone else, now its time to get all the underpinnings of the computer moving beyond everyone else as well. That way, they stay expensive, but become a much better deal.

[irmongoose]

Originally posted by ptrauber
I am interested to see a vid of the keynote to see what steve demo'd it with. (Palm, cell phone?)

BTW...Does anyone know the transfer speed of Bluetooth? I guess that it can't be faster than 12Mb per second considering that it's a USB adapter.

-Pete

Okay to answer your question, as I was there, he demoed it with a Palm. It look a little long, so teh transfer speed shouldn't be that fast.

I'm still rocking at Macworld!



irmongoose

[mac15]

Any MACWORLD would be exciting for me.
The cinema diplays are awesome 23 inches of beauty.
The ipods are cool but to expensive for me.
And the imacs are just brilliant.
Bluetooth is cool but can't you just plug the cord in, it would be quicker.

Anyway it was ok

[AmbitiousLemon]

i wouldnt exactly call it small, it just call it the site of the biggest blunder in apple history (g4imac). all apple needed to do was a minor speed bump to the powerbook, but all they give us is less machine for more money (imac).

and bluetooth, the only worthwhile annoucement and it didnt come from apple. lets remember folks apple isnt selling this. apple isnt integrating it into their computers. apple didnt design this. this is a third party developer. so apple essentially gave us nothing but higher prices and lies.

all i can say is goodbye apple. ill see you again in several years when i become desparate for another computer or if you get rid of this idiot steve jobs whose idea of running a company is slapping some plastic on all the machines raising prices and decreasing market share all the while ignoring the customers needs/wants and ignoring what is at the core of all of this THE COMPUTER! i despise the wintel world as much as anyone here and will never buy one but i can say im also no buying apple and if that leaves me with no new computer for awhile so be it. choose your poison i guess, well i choose none of the above. i wont buy another apple until this one breaks (and we all know for apple's that means a LONG time) or if apple cleans up their act. i have no loyalty to apple so i wont stand to be treated like this. if i want someone to knock me down and call me clumsy i have an older brother who can do that.

[Nipsy]

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
[B]i wouldnt exactly call it small, it just call it the site of the biggest blunder in apple history (g4imac).


A is for Amelio
B is for Blunder


all they give us is less machine for more money (imac).


Am I missing something...did they slow the iMac down?


and bluetooth, the only worthwhile annoucement and it didnt come from apple.


The MOST exciting thing is a ~750K wireless link (named after Scottish oral hygeine) to your iToaster?


all i can say is goodbye apple.


Put your CPU where your mouth is...I'm in the city, and will gladly schlep over to Berkeley to help you say goodby Apple (while I say hello)

[AmbitiousLemon]

well to clarify my feelinsg on the imac situation i thought i would post what i had to say about it from another thread:

personally this last thing in a string of many has made the new iMac the biggest blunder in apple history.

apple finally made a consumer product that all people would want to own. they spent massive amounts of money generating hype for this computer, drawing world attention to it which would come back to bite them in the end when the problems started.

the price from the beginning was a about $200 too much but for many people they bit the bullet and ordered it.

it was such an attractive deal that record numbers of iMacs were being ordered.

the new iMac was catching the eye of many pc users and the potencial for new converts and the first step in increasing market share seemed to have been taken.

but apple couldnt ship enough of the product. people were waiting months not weeks to get their computers. what started off as record numbers of orders was met by record numbers of cancelations. in fact apple was actually encouraging people to cancel their orders.

apple customer care was doing its best to antagonize the customers even more with lies and rude behavior... and thats if you got any response at all.

so the converts left. but now they had a really bad experience with apple that they would run out into the pc world and tell to all their friends and collegues. "joe over there tried to muy a mac but after fighting with apple's customer care for 3 months he finally just bought that nice little dell over there instead. go it in 3 days"

many people wanted an imac but just couldnt get one. they held out hoping the new machine would finally start shipping. the unavailability and high price scared them off. the fact that you could buy a powermac at nearly the same price made them question the imac purchase but it was just such a beautiful and powerful machine they kept hoping it would finally become available.

apple annouces increased prices rather than icreased availability and in addition to that, they flat out lied to all of their customers as to why the prices were increasing. anyone left considering buying an imac would have to be kicking themsleves for not ordering earlier (even though if they had they probably would still not have a computer) and many of these people would finally give up the dream. more lost converts and now a bunch of people who feel cheated.

and then there is that lie hanging over apple's head. blaming the increased imac prices on lcd and ram costs. as if any intelligient person would believe this for long. i dont know if any of you have checked but um... ram hasnt increased in price since january (since december yes but not since january, in fact the trend since january has been down ever so slightly). apple's ram is already highly overpriced so i find it hard to believe apple could find ram costing anymore than they are already claiming it costs. further more the imac is not the only apple with ram in it. perhaps you forgot about the ibook, powerbook, powermac? no ram increases there. no changes in price there. now thats odd. so the only ram that is increasing in price is imac ram ... sure. and lcds... well wouldnt you know it all of apple's computers also have lcds... again the imac is the only one with a price bump. in fact the powermac lcds have a significant rebate right now. certainly not a sign of increased lcd prices if you ask me. maybe its just those little lcds... o wait the ibook and powerbook have little lcds. again no price bumps there. in fact apple just unveiled a new lcd. bigger and more expensive than ever, now if lcd prices were increasing why would apple try to sell a bigger lcd that would be very vulnerable to price increases since it is already so expensive?

kind of odd that apple blames the price increase in the imac on parts that dont seem to be causing any problems in any other apple product. nope just the computer that apple suddenly noticed was much more highly demanded than they anticipated is meeting price increases.

the price increase isnt due to hardware. no thats just a way of saving face. apple simply decided that they could make more money by raising the price since they couldnt sell in large numbers. simple as that. if you cant produce a lot then the ones you do produce should earn you a lot. but apple could hardly get up there and say "hey kids didnt realize you guys liked this thing so much, now that i know this its really gonna cost you." i just cant imagine that going over well. so they make up a story about lcd prices and ram prices and hope no one sees through their little scheme.

so apple took a product that had the potencial to:
1) finally deliver mac os x to the masses
2) finally take steps toward increasing market share steve jobs has lost since he returned to apple
3) and finally improve apple's image with the masses regardless of whether they buy one or not
and turn it into a product that
1) gave more bad press and bad impressions of apple
2) made it harder to increase market share by pissing off massive numbers of potencial converts
3) make running a computer capable of running osx (a g4) even more unattainable to the consumer level buyer.
4) and degrade current customer loyalty by lying to and cheating customers

what this all boils down to is apple was stupid and didnt anticipate the demand for the new imac. actually they probably werent prepared for any high level of manufacturing of the new imac. so they definitely werent prepared for the massive orders they recieved. their customer care service wasnt prepared for the massive amounts of calls complaining and inquirying about where their computer was. so apple first tried to get some people to cancel to hopefully alleviate the problem. then someone decided that raising prices would maintain revenue and decrease demand so that they could catch up in their manufacturing and maybe give a break to their customer care service. we blame it on someone else and we dont even come out looking too bad.

if apple had been smart they would have spent all the money they wasted hyping this thing and spent it making sure their manufacturing was up to the task.



or maybe i am just bitter because i finally decided to buy one last week spent a week selling things and getting enough money scraped together only to find i suddenly didnt have enough because of apple's price increase.

but i got all this money now... maybe ill go buy a dell (jk, but seriously im not planning on buying anything from apple for a very long time not a boycott just a moratorium)

[Beej]

Woah. That's a migthy long post you got there, AL!

I just want to say that I wasn't expecting anything at all. Nothing. And I'm stoked that there was so much cool stuff released!

The 23" is unreal, the 10 GB iPod is sweet, Bluetooth is cool, it's just too bad about the iMacs. Good thing I have already ordered mine!

[teabgs]

I'm with Beej. I didnt expect so much to happen. I really like all the new toys, though I will never have one.

AL, I'm sorry you feel that way. You have some valid points but I think you're taking it a bit harshly on Apple. The economy isnt so good right now and you dont know everything that caused these problems. Theyre just trying to keep it together. I'm sure everything will be worked out in time.

Don't abandon Apple, just uyse your computer abit longer till you feel the price is right. I'm still on a 6500 and it works perfectly fine. OK, its a bit slow but hey, what r u gonna do? Im upgrading this summer. I've waited a LONG time and finally have almost enough money.

[Mr. Anderson]

I'm actually looking forward to going to my local apple store and checking out the 23" monitor. The 22" was impressive, but all the extra resolution just makes it that much better.

But the price is a little much right now.

Now if they can squeeze some more pixels into their Ti and other flat screens, that would be great.

[Taft]

It sure doesn't take much to piss you off, huh? Listen, I don't like this any more than you, but it certainly isn't the biggest blunder in the history of Apple. Not by a long shot.

Do you remember when Apple had a glut of inventory back about a year ago? Do you remember what happened? They couldn't push out new products, they had to slash prices on existing product to move the stagnant units out the door, their profit projections went down and then their stock price plunged. In a company like Apple you *must* keep your inventory channels relatively clear. To do otherwise means death.

So your two choices are to be guarded in your sales expectations and end up like Apple is currently, or overestimate sales expectations, massively increase production and end up like Apple was a year ago. I pick the former.

And by the way, do you have any idea how long it takes to ramp up production? Its not as if you can just go tell the factory foreman, "You work harder now!" Think of all the parts that go into an iMac or any computer. They need to get all of those parts built faster, shipped faster, to the main assembly plant faster, shipped to the consumer faster. Not so easy when you already have contracts and sales orders and if even one part doesn't come through faster, the end product is delayed. Sure you can try to find alternate channels, but they won't always be there or be any faster. Its harder than a consumer might assume.

What happened here was that they underestimated demand. Its not the first time this has happened to Apple and its not the first time they've given a product a minor price hike. Trying to get people to cancel orders to stave a riot by the populous is another technique companies will employ, and Apple tried here. It obviously didn't work.

You can see that its not a good situation, not by a long shot. But you also have to realize that flat panels are coming off the manufacturers very slowly right now and for a premium. There are a lot of reasons why this makes sense--for Apple--from a financial perspective.

Apple *has* made a mistake here. But the mistake is underestimating demand and market conditions, including the parts market. This move is an attempt to help the situation even if you see it as a betrayal.

Matthew

[Mal]

BTW, AmibitiousLemon,
Even though the iMac's got a minor price hike, they didn't cut any value from it, and previous orders are being honored, so those who went ahead and jumped the gun get a $100 discount for ordering early, even if they had to wait a little while. Plus, the iMac is in full scale production now, and they will be shipping somewhere around 5000 a day from now on until all orders are filled.
So quit dissing Apple for making a good move in a difficult situation.

[agreenster]

Yeah yeah. I keep hearing the same old analogy. "Apple is the Ferarri of personal computing, thats why their prices are so high."

Excuse me? Ferarri? Granted, Apple is a nice looking computer, but what does it offer that the PC world doesnt? Hey, I love my Apple, and I love OSX, but you have to admit Apple aint no Ferarri. If fact, in many cases, the PC outperforms the Apple hands down.

What does Apple offer thats so superior? I mean, Windows XP isnt a walk in the park--and I dont like their style--but they still offer the same thing: simple home personal computing. You have to admit that the PC world has done an excellent job in making machines affordable and of relatively high quality.

Economics be damned. I dont want to hear that the 23 inch Cinema Display is worth 3500 dollars because they want to sell less of them at higher prices. C'mon people. Everyone in the realm of personal computing (PC AND Mac) are DROOLING over this thing. So why not make it affordable? I bet you 100 bucks that it they'd make it affordable, they would triple their profit in sales because so many people would rather have a 23in Cinema Display instead of a standard CRT or flat monitor. Not ONE person in this thread, and no one I know claims to be willing to buy one. So, which would you rather have if you were Apple- 10 people loving the Cinema Display, and one person buying it for 3500-----or 10 people loving it, and 5 buying it for 1200?? Jesus. Thats not hard math.

And YES, Apple DOES want to increase their market share- their original goal was to double their market. Thats an extra 5%. No, Apple doesnt want to be 95%, or even the majority, but if they keep their prices up, they are going to do nothing but piss people off and drive them away. (AmbitiousLemon for example)

And what idiot said "Im just glad Apple has the 23 in monitor and the 10 gig iPod, even if I cant afford it." Hello dumb-ass. Thats like saying, I'm just glad my favorite grocery store has food, even though I cant afford to buy it.

WHAT? Come ON! Why isnt anyone else sick and tired of Apple's arrogant self charging up the ASS for their hardware? Is it trimmed in 24k gold?

And to those people who say "I wasnt expecting anything, so Im happy that we at least got SOMEthing."

Thats like saying, "I havent gotten laid in weeks, so Im kinda happy I got raped!" Thats rediculous! I thought Apple was looked on by us to be the premier computer hardware manufacturer!? I thought the bar was set high!? We should be expecting nothing but fantastic things from Apple this year, especially since AMD and Intel and Microsoft are relentless in always pioneering new and great technology. Apple should have had a 64bit G5 out months ago.

I could go on, but Ive got myself all worked up. I still think the Dual 1Gz should be the standard of all new Apple computers. And yes, its rediculous that they have upped the prices on the iMac. Fools.

Cut your prices on the old hardware, make new hardware. Dont make new hardware, and up the old hardware's prices.

[Backtothemac]

Agreenster, are you out of your friggin mind? 1200$ for a 23inch LCD display? They would loose over 1000$ each on those! If I remember correctly, the 22 inch was 3999 when it came out was it not? It has droped in price, but the new one is amazing! Not just in size, but quality. Everyone needs to just chill. How many of us were going to buy a new iMac yesterday, and put it off till today? Those are the only people that could have a Bitc*. It doesn't matter to me how much they cost, I will just have to save a little bit more money to get one.

Oh, and the 23 inch Cinemas are for pros, not home users, plenty of them will buy this thing, and Apple will continue to make the profits that it has since Steve has come back.

[chmorley]

The products are cool. The prices are high. The innovations are few. Such is life.

We drive the market.

If you think the prices are too high, stay away (like AL). If the market determines the prices are too high, the prices will fall (or Apple will go out of business). Of course Apple listens to consumers. Maybe they don't listen to us as much as we would like, but we aren't the ones buying the new cinema displays. We represent the part of the market that loves the cool stuff, but can't necessarily afford it. If the price is too high, it will fall--maybe not enough that we are all going to buy one, but it will fall enough that Apple will maximize net profits.

The price hike on the iMac seems pretty crappy, though. I'm not sure I buy the explanation, either.

The big complaint I disagree with, AL, is about Bluetooth. BLUETOOTH IS COOL! Sure, it's not made by Apple, but it's coming to Apple first. When is the last time a third party technology was implemented first on the Mac? It's been a while. And for those that have been wondering, sure you can sync with wires--and probably faster--just like you can set up a network with wires that's faster. But wireless can be more convenient and much cooler. Also, with the Bluetooth thingy plugged in, you can connect to any other Bluetooth device within range. While this doesn't sound like all that much right now, it will be when Bluetooth starts being implemented in phones, VCR's, coffeemakers, etc. You can control all that stuff from your computer. This fits perfectly with Apple's "digital hub" strategy. It makes sense that it will eventually be standard equipment in all computers (if the market likes it and adopts it), but I love that it came to the Mac first. I still love having my friends come over and being amazed at the speed of our wireless network. They're even more impressed when I tell them it has run perfectly for over two years. It's that sort of stuff that helps people realize that Apple still leads the way, and that M$ hasn't really "caught up" after all.

Anyway, it's not all that bleak, AL. We drive the market. Apple will adapt or wither and (eventually) die. If they choose the latter, I will miss them. I don't think they're that stupid, though. Either way, the only influence we have is by buying when we believe the price is right. It's not personal. It's business. It's not your life. It's a machine (even if it is one I love).

And if it wasn't clear from an earlier post, the speed of Bluetooth is about 700-750K.

Chris

[agreenster]

It was, and still is my understanding that Apple was venturing more into the home market. I dont care if the Pro's buy the Cinema Display. How is that helping the typical comsumer? THATS where they are losing their money you freakin' retard. The Pro's always buy the new stuff, regardless of the cost. Its written off as a business expense. Thats understood. Where they are dropping the ball is in regards to the home comsumer. If they want to recapture more of the market, they have to cut their prices. Period.

Plus, the original Cinema Display came out, like, 3 years ago. They are still charging 3000+ for technology that is 3 years old. I dont consider an extra inch and a higher resolution really remarkable "new" technology.

[agreenster]

Is cool.


But Apple isnt driving the market in everything. Please remember that. Microsoft and Intel have done an amazing job in pushing the speed of the PC, and its accessibility. Its really unfair to say that Apple is driving the market, when really both (mac and PC) are kind of doing different things at different times, and both staying at about the same place. Its no longer Apple that is truly dominant, like the way it used to be.

This is the point of my frustration.

[IndyGopher]

Anyone who feels the need to sell off their Apples (or indeed, to write page-long missives about how betrayed they feel) is welcome to. You are pretty much free to feel any way you want.. and to say most anything.

My first reaction when reading this thread was confusion over where these feelings were coming from.. I then moved on to being angry and frustrated by the obvious lack of any real understanding of how the world works... finally, by the time I got all the way through the second huge post by the Endeavouring Fruit, I realized it was satire!

So I wanted to apologize, for thinking that some of you were actually clueless, snivelling morons with no real grasp on what is important in life... You are, instead, clearly masters of dry satire. I can now re-read this thread in the proper light, and give the posts the uproarious laughter they are entitled to.

[Taft]

Originally posted by IndyGopher
You are, instead, clearly masters of dry satire. I can now re-read this thread in the proper light, and give the posts the uproarious laughter they are entitled to.

Ha!

That was some truly clever satire. I completely missed it.

Matthew

[Backtothemac]

Um, no punk, I am not a retard so let me clarify for you and say it really slow with me and maybe you will get it.

1) The iMac and iBook are Apple's consumer line. That is it, and that is all. Will the Cinema's, or Studios connect to the iMac, nope. They could connect to an iBook, but that requires a 400$ dollar adapter.

2) Do consumers have a need for a 23inch display, um, nope. 15 inch LCD's are more than perfect for 90% of home users. People that have a more impressive need, they can buy a G4 tower, and a 17 inch Cinema, or a 22 inch Cinema.

3) "3000 for old tech", um, seems to me like uncle Steve lowered the price on the 22's to 2499. Find any LCD with good contrast ratio, and a 22inch screen for less. You can't!

4) How do you figure that Apple is loosing money in the home sector? Every sale there is a positve thing. Apple is a pro company that is transitioning into a company that plays on all fields. Lets face it, the vast majority of people who buy PC's do so because they would never consider anything else! People are affraid of the unknown. Imagine a customer goes into an Apple store and sees this beautiful computer, with an amazing operating system, with unbelieveable applications, but because it is new and different, they leave and buy an e-machine for 500$. That is the problem, the brainwashed consumer, not Apples prices!

5) Don't know how you felt that you should call me a friggin retard because I asked a simple question. Are you out of your mind? You do not address the sheer stupidiy of your idea to sell a product that costs over 2500 dollars to make for only 1200. That would really help Apple become a more powerful company with greater market share, a greater market share of out of work tech employees. Grow up.

[agreenster]

He he. I love pushing your buttons. 'Retard' must be a sensitive spot. Anything we should know?

Yeah, yeah, I get your point--and I used to believe the same way you did. I used to be on your side of the arguement. And granted, I still prefer an Apple over a PC. But they are just so expensive, its exasperating.

I cant hardly believe that the Cinema Display costs 2500 to manufacture. No way. I think you made that figure up. Plus, I dont think you can prove it. If you can, please do. And dont come back with a "I read it somewhere, but I cant remember where. If I find it, I'll let you know" Thats just dumb-ass talk for, "I made it up." So dont tell me to grow up you stupid liar. At least I'm not in dream land thinking the Cinema Display is worth 3.5 grand. Crimeny. For that, Id buy another computer or two.

And yeah, I know all about the consumer vs professional models. I have both the TiBook and a G4 tower. But I have seen the iMac (the old one) and I have seen the iBooks. Jesus--what a crock. The iBook is the size of a calculator and the old iMac is so dumbed down, you can barely consider it workable. The top of the line macs (as I have already said) should be the bottom rung-standard. I opted for the TiBook and the G4 Tower because anything less would just be simply unnacceptable.

And ya know what? Consumers DO need the 23 inch monitor. And you know why? Because they are buying from Apple, supposedly the best computer company in the world. They SHOULD have a monitor that blows the competition away--and they should be able to afford it. Why should they settle for less just because computers arent involved in their way of making a living? Damn. How selfish is THAT?

And yes---you ask anyone why they dont want to switch to a Mac --money. Money money money. MONEY! The fact that they would have to relearn some functions of OSX are secondary. It always comes back to the cost points. And whats all this you are saying about the "great" applications for the Mac? Huh? Like what? iTunes? Big deal. iPhoto? Whoopy. Any piece of software worth noting is always made third party. OSX is nice, and the power of Unix is nice, but touting Apple as a great app maker is kinda silly.

But most importantly, Im tired of arguing with you guys, because I know what Im up against. You all are closed-minded. You will stop at nothing to defend the Mac, even if it results in making up figures, or getting all upset about it. The bottom line is, Apple isnt the only company doing great things in the PC world, and its time for them to get off of their elite soap-box and get the products into our hands. I love Apple products--I do. They are great for the most part. They just need to be more accessible.

[strider42]

Originally posted by agreenster
Economics be damned.

Boy am I glad you aren't in charge of apple. They'd be out of business in a matter of months. If apple has found a price point to maximize their profits, good for them. They don't owe you anything. Theya re a business, a corporation who's only goal is to increase value for shareholders by making the most money possible. You mgiht want stuff cheap, you might want lots of people to be able to afford the hgiher end apple stuff, but how is what you want good business. its not. everyone would like lower prices, but it ain't gonna happen for a while until things like LCD's become much mroe fo a commodity than they already are.

[agreenster]

Thats just it! I'm not economist, and I never will be. That's why I have the freedom to voice the general opinion of the consumer. Why is it wrong for me to ask for Apple to cut their prices more? Its not! It certainly wont happen, but I think Apple should know that a big reason they are not seeing support from the consumer is because they can get a PC for far cheaper. Sure, a PC isnt as good, but it is far more economic. No, a PC isnt as stylish and you cant get a cinema display, and you'd rather have a mac. BUT, you'd be 2500 dollars richer buying the PC. (considering you buy a good 2.2P4 and a typical flat screen monitor, over a dual 1ghz and a 22 cinema display--not even the 23in)

Im not arguing that a PC is better. It typically isnt. But the money you save from buying the PC is worth more than the happiness you get from buying a Mac in most consumers eyes. Dont forget, Im not speaking for myself here--Im speaking for the typical comsumer. I DO pay for Apple stuff, because Im a fanatic. But 95% of the market isnt a fanatic. Thats why prices need to drop.

You guys are so hostile. Well, I guess I can be too.

[Backtothemac]

OMG!
1) The price point to cost ratio on the 23 inch is basically a guess due to the fact that Apple generally keeps a 20% profit margin on everything.

2) ************* on a consumer needing a 23 inch monitor. They may want it but they damn sure don't need it. When did Apple develop an obligation to "blow away" other companies product? Find that dell 23 inch LCD will ya!

3) Quote from Dell.
Dell Dimension 4400 Series:
Pentium® 4 Processor at 2.0 GHz (G4 800 will perform very close to this)
256MB DDR SDRAM (Wish Apple had this)
Enhanced Performance USB Keyboard
16MB ATI Rage Ultra 4X AGP Graphics Card (iMac has 32 mb Nvidia)
80GB Ultra ATA/100 Hard Drive (They did not have a 60)
3.5 in Floppy Drive
Microsoft® Windows® XP Home Edition (enough said here don't you think)
Microsoft® Intellimouse® Explorer
10/100 PCI Fast Ethernet NIC
56K Telephony Modem for Windows
New DVD+RW/ CD-RW Combo Drive
SB Live! Digital Sound Card
Harman Kardon HK-395 Speakers
Microsoft® Works Suite 2002 with Money 2002 Standard
Norton Antivirus® 2002, 90-day introductory
Dell Jukebox powered by MusicMatch
Dell Picture Studio Image Expert® 2000
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15-Inch Flat Panel Monitor:

Dimension 4400
$1,978.00

Now you explain to me how the hell Apple's prices are out of line? That is a PC that is as close as I can match with the new iMac, and look at the price, minus a 100$ rebate makes it 1878, plus 95$ shipping (oh, wait Apple doesn't charge shipping!). Their prices are very close to Dell, who is well known as the cheapest PC company out there. Point is don't give me the Shi$ about Apple being to expensive, or Apple has raised prices, the fact is that they compete very well in price, and give you more.

4) Yea, iTunes, iMovie, iPhoto, and iDVD are big deals! Try doing those things on a Windows XP box, and then report back. No comparison! Oh, and yea Apple is a great software company, lets see, Final cut Pro, DVD studio, OS X.

5) If you have a grudge against apple, then do something about it, go buy a dell, but if you want to Bitc$ have a reason to do so. Oh, and the largest LCD they offer is a 17inch that is a 660 dollar upgrade! Their 20inch stand alone is 1799, and doesn't offer near the quality or size of the Apple 22 inch!

[agreenster]

Fine. Whatever.


You obviously didnt read my last post. This isnt about me, its about the consumer. Ill pay for Apple stuff. I like to. Other people wont.

Im done arguing. I realize more everyday how stupid this is.

[Backtothemac]

Look, I agree with you this is stupid. The point that I was trying to make is differnet strokes for differnet folks right. I know this is not about you, what I was trying to say is that most consumers would not give Apple a look, even if they did cost less than the PC because of preconceived notions.

I don't blame you for your opinion, I respect it. I just thought you were being a little to harsh on their pricing thats all. We may fight like enemies, but in fact us Macheads as cyrus likes to call us are really brothers. Anyway, I do respect your opinion, and your point is well taken, hell, I wish they were cheaper, so I could replace my iMac 600 with a dual 1ghz :D

[agreenster]

We all get pissy sometimes, I agree. And you'll find, the longer you are here, that I OFTEN times play devil's advocate just to stir the pot, and see what Apple people have to say. It helps me with my arguements in the future against loyal PC people. By the way, I consider myself a supporter of both platforms, with a strong inclination toward the pristineness of Apple. But I use them both. I also like SGI, but its kind of a sick duck right now.

I just wish that there wasnt a reason to be angry, you know? I wish that we didnt have to fight all the time to 'prove' that Apple is superior as a product. It should be blantantly obvious to everyone, but it isnt.

Oh well. No hard feelings then.

[Backtothemac]

I agree, I do miss some things from my PC's, namely the kick a$$ visuals in Winamp. I don't love Apple's hardware as much as I love their OS. I too like to play the advocate sometimes :-)

Anyway, look forward to future discussions with you.
Chuck

[krossfyter]

You all... Apple is the frekin HELLAFIED SHIZNIT.... to be blunt in an ebonics sorta way. Apple is going to blow your mind before this year is over (if it hasnt already). Just wait.



dig it!

[AlphaTech]

Hey Lemon....

One, we were warned months ago about LCD prices going up, not by Apple but news sources. Two, memory HAS been going up in price, don't blame Apple, it is across the board. Memory pricing is one of the most volitile things I have ever seen. What else can go up and down 50% or more overnight? I have seen prices change hourly, from one order to another.

Apple told us 'no new hardware for MW Tokyo'. They pretty much held to that with an update to the iPod software (sweeeeeet), iTunes 2.0.4, a second iPod model (actually glad the original stayed at the $399 since I picked one up about a month ago), and the 23" LCD. I have seen the 22" on a desk and it dominated it, I can barely imagine what the 23" must do. Not many people will be able to shell out the $3500 for one, but it is still less then the ones from NEC that are about that size.

If it takes that little to piss you off, switch to decaf and take a valium. Expect to see new hardware at MWNY and MWSF. We MIGHT get lucky and see additional releases in Paris, but don't count on it.

Until Apple actually releases something, it is 100% rumor and speculation.

[strider42]

Originally posted by agreenster
Thats just it! I'm not economist, and I never will be. That's why I have the freedom to voice the general opinion of the consumer. Why is it wrong for me to ask for Apple to cut their prices more? Its not! It certainly wont happen, but I think Apple should know that a big reason they are not seeing support from the consumer is because they can get a PC for far cheaper. Sure, a PC isnt as good, but it is far more economic. No, a PC isnt as stylish and you cant get a cinema display, and you'd rather have a mac. BUT, you'd be 2500 dollars richer buying the PC. (considering you buy a good 2.2P4 and a typical flat screen monitor, over a dual 1ghz and a 22 cinema display--not even the 23in)

Im not arguing that a PC is better. It typically isnt. But the money you save from buying the PC is worth more than the happiness you get from buying a Mac in most consumers eyes. Dont forget, Im not speaking for myself here--Im speaking for the typical comsumer. I DO pay for Apple stuff, because Im a fanatic. But 95% of the market isnt a fanatic. Thats why prices need to drop.

You guys are so hostile. Well, I guess I can be too.


I wasn't trying to be hostile, and I completely agree you have the right to want prices to be lower and be vocal abuot it. I was just trying to give a realistic viewpoint on why apple doesn't cut prices: they don't have to, nor should they from a business standpoint. at least not as much as we would all like. So lonjg as apple is making a profit and doing well, why should they lower prices. I realize that I had some sarcasm in my posts which wasn't really warranted, so I apologize for that.

I might also argue that apple's consumer machines are pretty well priced compared to PC's that are comaprably equipped. its the pro line thats too expensive considering what you get for it (And i don't mean the displays. hihg quality LCD's are expensive, no way around that). Thats why i'd like to see apple not lower prices, but instead just add more high technology into the pro line, like rapid I/O, DDR, etc, etc, etc.

[Bobd]

Hiyouall


Just a few things.


To chmorley :
I am pretty sure that BLUETOOTH came on PC's first , and quite some time ago. I guess some simple research could be made to find a website that states it clear, but I'll just go for my personnal experience, when back in November I saw a demonstration of a Sony notebook communicating with a cell phone (I think it was Motorola, not sure). Yes, with Bluetooth.
In fact, when it was first announced, Bluetooth technology was seen as a potential Airport concurrent... Funny.

To BacktotheMac :
As for prices, I think you should take one thing in account : if you want to get a PC, you can simply build it (or have it built) so that you chose exactly what you want, and, of course, for much less than a Dell. I guess that's what the common statement "Macs are more expensive than PC's" refer to.

[carlmac]

First time poster here. Looking forward to getting my new G4 imac. Been reading the posts for awhile now, and thought I'd throw out a couple of general comments.

Notice that those with a poor business sense are usually the ones who don't have the money to afford a Mac and/or complain the loudest about the prices.
There's a correlation there and I'd recommend that anyone struggling with money issues reading a book like Rich Dad, Poor Dad to learn more about how money works. By developing a new and better thought process and in turn a better relationship with money you might actually find more money to afford things of value like what apple offers.

The new imac at 1799 or now 1899 is a very good deal. You're getting a fantastic flat panel display, the best operating system on the plant, about $500+ worth of software, the ability to play and burn both cd's and dvd's, a good size hard drive, a G4 processor, and if you buy it online at a place like MacMall they'll throw in a printer--I mean c'mon that's a good deal no matter how you slice it. I spent almost as much for my original 333mhz imac three years ago! Franlky when it was announced in January I thought it would have been priced at $1999. So even with the $100 increase its still a great deal.

Those who say PC's are cheaper, faster etc. miss the point of the total computing experience. Plus don't factor in the other costs to buy the software you get with the imac or the superdrive. Not to mention ease of use. I've used/use both a pc and a mac, and like the vast majority of those who have used both platforms, the choice is obvious and the value worth the price.

[krossfyter]

welcome aboard calmac...im in total agreement with what you said. thanks for that. can you give me a link for those books?

[Backtothemac]

BobD. That is not the point. How many people in the market place (especially home users) build their own PC? I would bet less than 5 %. The point is that as a company, Apples prices are in line with the other companies (dell, gateway etc.). The reason that consumers say PC's are cheaper, is because they compare a 1.6 GHZ dell that they see on TV for 799 and a dual 1GHZ that they see at CompUSA for 3499, and they think man PC's are cheaper than Macs.

If they would compare Apples to Oranges, instead of Apples to kiwi, then they would understand that a Mac configured equally, comes out to about the same price.

[Bobd]

Carlmac, as far as I know, when you buy a PC, you buy software too. Of course you have the OS, but also, and this differs from manufacturer to manufacturer, a bundle of different softwares. Some provide Word, which is worth about $350, for example...

[krossfyter]

bobd.... whats your point on the software thing? not meaning to flame you ...just curious. :D

[carlmac]

Hi Krossfyter,

Thanks for the welcome. Here's a link to the books - there are a series of them, but Rich Dad, Poor Dad is the one I'd start with....

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0446677450/theclassictrucks/qid=1016755157/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_67_1/102-9098579-7846520

Carl

[Bobd]

Sorry if I wasn't clear the first time.


Carlmac says (if i understood him/her well) that if you are to compare PC's and Macs, you should take into account the value of the software bundled with the latter. All I'm saying is that PC's do not come with no software either and that you should also take these into account, in order to make a fair comparison. I sure hope I'm not going to be flamed for this statement, which I feel is only logic...

Please note that I'm not saying anything against Carlmac's other points. I just thought this one was, to say the least, inaccurate.

[Bobd]

BacktotheMac

I think you unserestimate the number of people who build their PC's themselves or have them built. And whatever their quantity, I have the feeling that their way of thinking strongly contributes to people thinking that PC's are cheaper than Macs.
It is very well known among PC users that you have the opportunity to build your computer yourself, and that this way of doing things is both more complicated and cheaper. So, in PC's user opinion, even if dell and Apple have the same price range, Macs are still more expensive than PC's since the self-building option exists (not that everybody actually does it). Plus, Dell and Gateway and other brands (especially other brands, actually) have many more low cost options than Apple, which also adds to the general feeling that Macs are more expensive : the average home user computer cost is higher with Macs. But of course, this last point doesn't take into consideration what kind of computers you get, but the statement "Macs are more expensive..." doesn't either.

[carlmac]

You're right about the software issue BobD, there are PC's bundled with software. I just think the Mac software bundled with the new imac is far better than what I usually see offered with other pcs.

Can you give me a configuration and price of a PC system that would have the following:
1) a flat panel display close to the resolution, brightness, sharpness and contrast of the new imac (we'll forget about finding the swivel feature of the display that the new imac offers).
2) It will also need to have about the same speed as the new imac (let's say roughly 1.4mhz to compete with the imac's 800), don't worry about the velocity engine or preemptive multitasking you get with the G4
3) same ram configuration --actually double the ram since you can get it doubled for free via many Mac online retailers)
3) it must also play and record cd's and dvd's
4) 108-key keyboard
5) decent external speaker system
6) It must have the following software--
(I realize in most cases the software won't be as good, but for comparisons sake it must have the following)...

Quicken,
an Office suite like Appleworks
photo management software
itunes-like jukebox software
movie editing software like imovie2
dvd authoring software (i.e. dvd2) (background encoding and disc burning please)
world book/encyclopedia like software
at least a couple of decent games
the obvious browser, mail, acrobat reader, AOL software
fax software so you can send and receive faxes
ideally it should also have access to something like itools, idisk

Don't forget to add the cost of a USB hub port to the system if the PC doesn't come with 5 USB ports, and of course the cost of a firewire hub if it only comes with one firewire port. And throw in the cost of a portable dvd player if it doesn't offer great monitor resolution to watch dvd's.

We'll forget about the fact we will be using Windowns XP on this system, or that many of the features on the new osX that make it rock-solid and crash proof--actually you know I take that back -- the superior mac operating system has got to be worth at least a $100, so add $100 to whatever price you come up with in this PS comparison figuration, I mean time is money. If you make let's say $50 an hour, you're gonna spend hundreds of dollars more wasting time with window crashes or configuration problems on the pc system you come up with. But to be more than fair we'll limit the superior os operating system to a $100 value.

The point of all this is that you'll be hard pressed to find a pc configuration system that has all the above and for a signficantly reduced price over the imac. But if you do manage to pull a bunch of third parties into the mix to come up with a "comparable" pc configuration, the cost difference will be more than made up for in the overall step up in quality, less down-time and better overall computing experience you're gonna get with the new imac.

That's all I'm saying.

[AlphaTech]

Originally posted by Bobd
Carlmac, as far as I know, when you buy a PC, you buy software too. Of course you have the OS, but also, and this differs from manufacturer to manufacturer, a bundle of different softwares. Some provide Word, which is worth about $350, for example...

Word COSTS about $350 and is worth about $50...

[AmbitiousLemon]

i thought i ought to respond since i seem to be the one who got everyone so fired up.

first i just want to say i had a long day yesterday to come home and find i wouldnt be getting the computer i had been hoping for... and in fact i probably woudlnt buy another mac for many years (at least for myself ill make sure work shells out some serious dough for the top of the line apple for me). so maybe i flew off the handle a bit.

but i think many of you (most of you) missed my point entirely (perhaps you are unable to read such a long post). apple has spent A LOT of money targeting the consumer, hyping the new imac, and trying to get peopel to adopt osx. apple admits that you need a g4 to adequately run osx (if you disagree then go talk to steve i dont have the patience for people who wont listen to reason). apple has stated recently (and numerous times) that they want more market share. how do you do this? you convert pc users, plain and simple. with many millions of dollars apple created the computer that could convert a pc user and the hype to let them know it was made. and that is when apple dropped the ball. i say this is the biggest blunder in apple history because apple took what could have been the greatest step toward realizing what they have strove for for many years spent all the money and then threw it all away.

and a quick digression:
sure i cant buy my computer but that was a small side note of my post not the big underlying theme people have mad eit out to be. and for the peopel criticsizing me because i dont want to spend a hundred dollars or people who think im someone bad with money. im a 21 year old college student and i have enough money sitting in my checkinga ccout to purchase one of every apple product software included. also i could make more money in a day with my degree and knowledge than many of you will make in a month. but its just a computer and since im not an idiot with money i cant justify such a large expense

but back the the topic. this is the biggest apple blunder because apple ruined everything they had spent tons of money to create. if apple wants to be the bmw fine, but dont spent years of r&d and millions of dollars in advertising to target the non-bmw buying market. apple screwed up big time and you are a loyal fool if you dont believe it (but thats cool because i have learned to value loyalty in friends and coworkers). if aple had been spending that time and money going after the bmw crowd then no biggie, but thats not what apple has been doing in recent years. apple has been aggressively pursuing comsumers. apple has slashed prices numerous times (clearly an indicator that they understand the price problem) but when it came time to finally realize the gains of all this work they screwed up. and as i outlined in my first post they screwed up in many ways that simply culminated with the price increase, but the price increase wasnt the only problem (although i see it as the straw that broke the camel's back).

but i also want to mention the reason for the price hike. if you believe that its because of a ram increase id say you are a very loyal trusting apple fan (or id say you are extremely gullible). before apple would ever built a computer in quantity they would negoitiate a price for al the components. they simply wouldnt pay whatever the seller happened to be asking that day. to believe that day to day or even month to month fluctuations and volatility would effect the price of apple's ram supply is laughable. i would be surprised if apple didnt secure a price for ram and lcds well before the price hikes in the end of december. apple announced the imac and its price in january. after the price increase of ram had occurred. if ram was expensive and apple felt it would impact the profitability of the imac they should have announced a higher price then not 3 months later. ram prices since the announcement of the imac have GONE DOWN. if you have been following ram prices you would knowthis (ok granted they have only gone down by less than 5 dollars on average but my point is that they rnt going up). further more all of apple's computers use ram. ram in apple's other machines has been dropped in price. powermacs (little knwon fact) have actually dropped in price since mwt. the ram promotion on the powermacs that has been in effect for many months has also been uneffected byy this ram hike apple is purporting as the cause of the imac's price hike. the lcd prices are harder for me to prove simply because there is less evidence. but there is evidence for it. again apple claims lcd price have caused the increase in price of the imac however all of apple's computers have lcds. the laptops are just as dependant on lcds as the imac. again only the imac saw price increases. and ibooks and powerbooks have seen nothing but massive discounts and promotional givaways. hardly a sign of an lcd shortage. furthermore the lcds associated with the powermacs are not only not seeing a price hike but are receiving a promotional discount! this discount although ending soon as been uneffected by the "lcd shortage." next we have a brand new lcd being introduced. its hard to believe that apple would introduce yet another lcd product that will meet high demand if they felt the prices were volatile. and despite the argument about the price of the hd cinema display it is comparable to the market and what the original cineman display was released at (ie doesnt look like apple pre-hiked the price of it). and lastly i will mention again that apple would have secured prices for lcds for their imacs long before any of these price increases (that incidntally have not effected the prices i see on lcds in and catalgues) occured, and likely in nticipation of such a price hike.

it seems abundantly clear the cause of the price increase is not due to lcd or ram prices. this means apple lied. which makes one wonder why they actually raised prices. if apple had told me a part specific to the imac had increased in price i would say bad luck for apple, why didnt they secure the price for that, and admit they did what they had to do. but since an external shortage/price hike does not seem plausible i can only assume it came from inside. and that i do find fault with, expecially after apple has taken such great strides in recent years to address the consumer market and prices in particular.

i have received more emails regarding this post than any other post in the past. i had people offering to give me the $100 so i could buy my imac. every single person who emailed me agreed with me. and most of them were considering buying an imac... not anymore though. some of you zeaots around here need to realize that to the consumer this is unacceptable, especially after 3 months of putting up with other problems. and because this is unacceptable to the consumer this is a disaster for apple. apple has alienated and betrayed their customers, many of them first time buyers and that is going to stick with people for a very long time.

lastly i want to address some people who rudely told me to "put my cpu where my mouth is" and give away my computer. i feel i am putting my cpu where my mouth is. yesterday i was going to pay $1900 for a new high end imac. today i am not. i think that sends a clear message. apple may make an extra $100 off a few people but they will have to sell a lot more to make up for all the people like me and those who emailed me. at higher prices i dnt see apple selling more. so hopefully they will get the message. i wanted an imac because i wanted a desktop to compliment my laptop. it was small, it was a novelty, and it gave me some features i had been wanting that my laptop lacked. i was willing to sink 2k for a new toy (as stupid as that sounds) but since it is just a toy and i dont need it, im not going to buy it when the company that sells it is lying to me.

but that last bit is on a more personal note, and does not change or influence the facts that apple screwed up big time. if they had done nothing new a mwt it would have been fine. if they ahd released the products they released but not hike the imac that would have been great. but with one fell swoop they erased years of money and work at rebuilding the mac user base and posing them selves for increased market share. all gone for a quick $100. stupid to say the least. and i cant think of anytime in apple history when apple made such a blunder.

[j763]

I really don't know how this thread got off the topic of MWT to Robert Kiyosaki books (richdad.com) , but anyway, here's my 2 cents...

Everyone would like more product for less money, but some people seem to think that Apple is indestructable. for example "oh yeah, let's make the 23" panel a consumer product..." or "the iMac is way more expensive than a dell" -- it's not... if apple cut their prices or overestimated demand for a product, we'd soon be back to the dark days of 97... has everyone forgotten about when apple was going to go under and m$ saved them???


be realistic with your expectations...


oh, and BTW, don't accuse me of being a blind apple follower -- because i'm not...

[afonso]

and a quick digression:

:( errr, who cares how much smart you are or how much money you can make in a month?

You should have digressed a bit further and have not included it at all ;)

Later,
Afonso

[AmbitiousLemon]

alfonso. i agree i shouldnt have had to say it, but if you read the whole thread you would see that nearly everyone was calling me stupid and giving me financial advice because they assumed i was hard up for money or something. one guy was so patronizing as to suggest a couple of books for me to read about how to properly manage my money. i felt i had to respond to these personal attacks by letting everyone know that i was by no means stupid or broke or something.

perhaps you should read all the posts before you insult someone.

[AlphaTech]

Maybe if you didn't make the posts so damned long we would be more inclined to read all of them. I saw the length and just gave up. I did start to read your first one, but damn man... edit it down some will ya????

[carlmac]

Ambitious LemonGrasshopper,

You do need to go back and read the posts, I wasn't offering you specifically any advice, just making a noted correlation between people complaining about the cost of apple/price increases etc. and their own financial resources. In fact I wasn't even thinking about you when I wrote the post. That you took it personally should give you pause for thought.

Of course, one can have a million dollars and still be a "poor man". It's all in the thinking.

As far as Apple making the "biggest blunder in its history" and "in one fell swoop erasing years of money and work at rebuilding the base" this is nothing but hyperbole. Chill.

Yes Apple messed up the launch of this product and missed some initial opportunities, (for which the stock market will rightly punish them for) New product launches are often screwed up--especially in the tech sector.
However, the public is a large, slow moving beast, and there is plenty of time to regroup and reap huge dividends from the imac which they will do.

As far as Apple lying about the price increase etc. etc. methinks you've been watching too many conspiracy movies. The truth is out there.

[afonso]

my friend,

i don't think i insulted you, did i? i was just saying, even if people are implying stuff about you if you just ignore it it's best for us all...

just an opinion. i hate having these otherwise cool forums getting bloated up by trivial accusations between us all mac lovers and haters...


it's funny though :) you never see anything like this on pc forums :)

later,
afonso

[chmorley]

Bobd:

Not that I doubt your word or anything, but do you know of any documentation supporting that Sony had implemented Bluetooth already? I searched Sony's site for any mention of it and came up with nothing. This (http://www.sonystyle.com/digitalimaging/P_Access_IP7BT.shtml) refers to a camera that Sony will release, but hasn't yet. I searched Bluetooth's site and came up with some references to PC products being introduced virtually simultaneously with the Mac stuff, but nothing about any Sony stuff being used in November. That's just fine with me, anyway. My only point was that third-party stuff has been coming to the PC first, and then the Mac significantly later.

As far as I can tell, there is no computer company doing more with Bluetooth today than Apple is.

So where can I find a reference to this cool Sony technology?

Chris

[lasvegasgamer]

I am too new to these boards, but definitly not to Boards in general, I love to get my head in as many debates as possible ((usually the heated ones)) Mac OS X vs 9, Xbox vs PS2/Gamecube Mac vs PC etc...I major in foresnic sciences anyway...so I'm good at this ;)

Let me just some up some of the topics I have seen from some people:

Q1)Apple has all this pro stuff for $1000+ but not enough for the consumer to afford...
A1)That is really quite stupid, consumers want as much as they can get their hands on...but they cant afford it. Consumers want a $2000+ pro monitor so apple should lower it to a price consumers can afford just because they want it...That is very very stupid.Apple would lose money

Q2)Apple is splitting themselves between pro and consumer
A2)Yea, so...? They can do that...and they can have a different price point...Microsoft has stolen some of the pro so Apple is trying to steal the consumers.

Q3)Software preinstalled on a Mac is worse then a PC...
A3)Really not true...but I am noticing something, very little 3rd Party software comes on any computer anymore. PC makers are no longer touting their software suite as much as they used to. iMacs don't come with what they used to. My Rev C iMac came with a lot of 3rd Party software ((which was suprising seeing that Apple was coming out of its dark days then...well not then, the Rev C did have the same sw as the bondi-blue and the bondi-blue was the end of the dark days)) so its coming down to

PCs-Windows XP stuff ((OS and minimal software)) plus M-Works
Macs-Mac OS X stuff ((OS and working software)) plus A-Works

What Microsoft Works comes with is VERY insulting...I just bought a Dell without the Office XP upgrade ((well, not just bought...about a year ago)) for my mom. Word comes with it but the features that make Word ((XP and V.X)) ok are on Software recovery disks ((6 just for works)) that I had to sort through, The rest of works is even more pathetic..Microsoft is losing a lot of its footing because people are realizing that they can have Office X on the Mac ((apple is touting that now)) and that AppleWorks can open Office Stuff while M-Works cant open M-Office stuff. Thats not great compatibility. Microsoft Works is redundent, Microsoft doesn't work in that regard.

What is with the lack of 3rd party software coming with the Mac ((I loved Williams Sonoma Good Cooking with my iMac)) or the PC...\

Q4)Apple is lieing about the price increase
A4)Hold on...((Yea I know its sad to make you hold on in a BB message ;) ))

I just went to Pricewatch.com...and since I last went ((Beginning of January)) prices are drastically up...I could buy a stick of 128 ram (PC-133 sdram) at the begginning of the year for $9 bucks w/o shipping, this wasn't the best ram but it was ok. That same ram is now $22 w/o shipping. Cruical.com is feeling the heat as they have price jumps of over $20 on that low end ram. Higher quality ram that apple uses felt this as it was across the market...as for LCDs its the same idea, the tech market does not have the great demand as the market is feeling the slow down of the DotComets. The makers of the ram and computer parts of the computer surplus are just now shipping their last stocks of ram from late 2000. So now they have to make more and no surplus means demand...people knew this was going to happened. They said it about 9 months ago...

As for MW:Tokyo, I always watch the Macworlds from home and the internet. Funny that the Mac community wont come to where the rest of the Computer industry does...but I don't mind it I respect it. When Apple comes up with another iMac type machine to seriously rival windows pcs they should come to Macworld:Las Vegas "We came to their home turf to show our product" or something like that. But why did Apple introduce the new 10gb iPod so quickly...they could have waited a little bit. It wasn' t something that everyone wanted. They could have waited till France or New York, by then the mini hd prices would be down. Oh well...time for Jaguar 10.2, G5s or somethin else to revoultionize it. iWalk/iPad on the way or is it just hype?

"Apple makes you think"

[Bobd]

Chmorley :

http://www.vaio.sony-europe.com/ger/products/notebooks/fx201_frames_top.html

I'm sorry it is in German, but I was in a mall in Berlin when I saw what I saw. But you will definitely see they talk about Bluetooth here.
Actually, I just realized it's on UK's site too :
http://www.vaio.sony-europe.com/eng/products/notebooks/sr21k_frames_top.html



CarlMac :

Thanks for your answer and clarifying your statement about bundled software.

First, I think I mentionned I did not disagree with the rest of what you wrote. I just say that in my opinion, PC's offer valuable software too, depending on the brand. As for the interest, let me tell you that I'd rather have Word than iMovie which does not fit my personnal needs...

Second, it is very useless to try and compare 2 computers that are completely different. It is like comparing a car and a motorcycle, saying a Motorcycle is better because you can make your way through traffic jams etc... but not mention the fact that you get wet when it is raining or that a car can carry more people. It is even more useless to try to find a car that will match every single feature of the motorcycle (and vice versa)... This is a simple examplme to illustrate my point, I'm not saying PC's and Macs can be directly compared to a car and a motorcycle... It is very easy to put in front the advantages (or differences) of Mac and saying PCdoesn't offer the same, but keep in mind that it is as easy to do it the other way, too :

Find an affordable Mac in which I can add the sound card I'm looking for or replace the video card, on which I can play hundreds of different high speed, full resolution games... Let's say these are the most important points to me (they are not actually), and then I'll have to say that PC's offer better features than Macs...

By the way, maybe you should not take into account that 5th USB port on iMacs, since it is internal and therefore not accessible.

[agreenster]

Originally posted by carlmac
[BNotice that those with a poor business sense are usually the ones who don't have the money to afford a Mac and/or complain the loudest about the prices.
[/B]

Hmm. I'd be careful there.

If you are trying to say that the reason I am complaining about the price of Apple Computers is because I lack the funds to buy one, you're pretty dead wrong. Last count, I have 4 Macs, not including the three I had before these. I am really well off financially as well.

The reason I am complaining about Apple prices is because I'd like to see Apple regain 5-6% marketshare, and my feeling is they wont or cant do it without seriously cutting prices.

Anyway, welcome to MacRumors

[agreenster]

Originally posted by Bobd
Find an affordable Mac in which I can add the sound card I'm looking for or replace the video card, on which I can play hundreds of different high speed, full resolution games... Let's say these are the most important points to me (they are not actually), and then I'll have to say that PC's offer better features than Macs...


I'm pretty sure you can.(sarcasm)

I have an OLD G4 (the original "Yikes!" G4 400) and have already swapped out the video card, added another HD, and can play nearly any game you want at pretty high resolution. One of my favs is Unreal Tourney (even though I havent played in months and months) and I can play it at 1024x768, at the highest quality, and maintain a great framerate. I can only image what new G4's are doing.

Affordable? Thats another stary, and that horse has been kicked dead by me already. But, you can get a G4 tower now for pretty cheap, just not their high-end G4 towers. (dual 1ghz)

[Bobd]

Guys, how come you all feel so offended whenever someone says "Macs are not the best computer in the universe for everything".

As I remember it, G4 tower + screen > Imac in terms of price. My post was about comparing the iMac to PC's in general as an answer to CarlMac saying, in essence, that the iMac is simply superior for the same price as PC's.

As for games, since you can play "Any game I want" at pretty high resolution, tell me about Medal of Honor, tell me about Everquest, tell me about Flight Simulator 2002, etc. My point is not that you can't play games on a Mac, but rather that it is not the best platform available for this at the moment we're speaking, mostly because of the low number of games available.
The other reason is, of course, price. Good for you you can play games on your G4 400, and it is truze that this computer is not very pricey nowadays - because you would have to get it second hand. Nowadays, if what you're looking for is gaming experience, you can get a much cheaper computer if you choose a PC, and I don't think you will disagree. (Truth is, you can get an even better gaming experience if you buy a PS2 or Gamecube :))

BUT that's all I'm saying : basically, that if I were to compare Macs and PC's on this particular aspect of things, Macs wouldn't stand a chance. This meaning that, in my opinion, there is no absoultely superior computer, it just depends on what you want to do. And therefore, as I already said, it is very easy to find things at which this or that computer is better, but if you chose a computer according to these things then you should also accept that for other things it just won't be the best computer around. Heck, there's a reason why PC's are so popular, it's just not the millions of PC users who are wrong... Some probably are, some chose what is best for them.

[Bobd]

Oh, and Agreenster :

I am not a native English speaker and I'm not sure I got the "that horse has been kicked dead by me already" part. Could you please explain it in an other way?

[agreenster]

Point taken about the games. I wasnt trying to come off as defensive--I was just wondering if you knew that G4's can be very expandible. Many people think that the iMac is the only computer Apple offers, and dont like Apple then because their computers are not expandible.

But you are totally right. PC market offers many more games, and you could make a PC for pretty cheap that can outgame a Mac.

Oh, and my dead horse comment:

Its a strange American phrase--- If someone is "kicking a dead horse," they are making a point that has already been made over and over, and is pointless to make again. In other words, it does you no good. It is derived from the analogy that someone is riding a horse, and is trying to get it to go by kicking it (from the saddle). If the horse is dead, you could kick all day long and nothing would happen.

I had already made my point about Macs being too expensive throughout this thread, and making it again would have been "kicking a dead horse."

[Bobd]

Thanks a lot for the answer !!

[lasvegasgamer]

I'm a loyal mac fan, but not stupid...I'm not even gonna sit here and say that the Mac can outgame PCs...However, at my high school we have a lot of gamers and they all have a favorite game that we play and talk. the games usually last for a month before we go onto a next one...And for the last 1.5 years, I've been able to keep up with the trends Currently and Becoming All the time with the other games also is:Starcraft, runs well in Mac OS X and etc...Deus Ex,Castle Wolf, STV:EF and a few others that work on the Mac, yes some times I use my VAIO to play the non-mac games, but its not as bad as you think. Maybe get an XBox, its the one thing that Microsoft did well on...

"Do the Hustle"

[Taft]

Did you happen to read my post about Apple inventory channels and part supplier ability to supply parts??? I suggest you do.

The point you make is valid: Apple probably did negotiate a price for their parts.

But now you have to ask two questions: Did they order enough? and Can the suppliers supply enough? My answer to both is no.

First there is a shortage of LCD monitors right now due to silicon shortages. Second Apple undoubtedly underestimated demand (read my last post). The prospect of ramping up production is not an easy one (again, read my last post).

This is a far more complex picture than you paint. Its bad, but given the demand for the iMac and the parts prices and problems it is expected and not nearly "the worst move Apple has ever made."

Matthew

[AmbitiousLemon]

mrtrumbe: you make good points. i can imagine that apple under negoitiated the parts. but it still does not address the fact that all of apple's machines use ram and lcds and all the rest have significant discounts. if apple was having problems getting ram and lcds at good prices they should first end the promotions before raising prices. but appartently the problem is specific to imacs.

ok maybe there are new powermacs in the works and thats why apple doubled the powermac discounts and continued the powermac lcd discount and continued the powermac ram discount. but i still find it questionable that apple can be practically giving powermacs away with mroe ram and larger lcds and then say there is a ram and lcd shortage.

these are the very things they are continuing to discount in other lines and their statement that it is simply ram and lcd prices driving imac production costs up just doesnt hold water.

if apple had blamed it on parts specific to an imac it would make sense.

[krossfyter]

if ya wanna play games....get a console...they are made specifically for that...and a hellof a lot cheaper too.


on the other hand if you want to do some serious creative ***** then get a mac.

[AlphaTech]

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
mrtrumbe: you make good points. i can imagine that apple under negoitiated the parts. but it still does not address the fact that all of apple's machines use ram and lcds and all the rest have significant discounts. if apple was having problems getting ram and lcds at good prices they should first end the promotions before raising prices. but appartently the problem is specific to imacs.

ok maybe there are new powermacs in the works and thats why apple doubled the powermac discounts and continued the powermac lcd discount and continued the powermac ram discount. but i still find it questionable that apple can be practically giving powermacs away with mroe ram and larger lcds and then say there is a ram and lcd shortage.

these are the very things they are continuing to discount in other lines and their statement that it is simply ram and lcd prices driving imac production costs up just doesnt hold water.

if apple had blamed it on parts specific to an imac it would make sense.

Lemon... Not ALL of Apple's machines use LCD's, only the new iMac and the laptops do. All other systems CAN use the LCD's, but that is an option. As for RAM, the iMac and laptops use SODimms, where the towers use SDRAM (completely different animals). Also, the 667 TiBook uses PC133, where the rest use PC100, again different chips. IF you knew about such things, you wouldn't have made the comments, I can only give you the benefit of lack of knowledge there.

Continueing to whine about the $100 increase does no-one any good, least of all you. Get one or don't. For me, $100 would not break my bank account, or push me away from Apple. $500 or more might make me wait a month or so longer, but that is about all.

[AmbitiousLemon]

alpha. getting snippy rnt we. i find it odd how people get upset when someone points out fault in apple. as far as im concerned if apple does something wrong im going to mention it. this blind loyalty is cool for your pet dog but it seems odd coming from a bunch of educated people for a corporation.

your points are taken, but apple is claiming industry wide ram and lcd shortages causing problems. i find it extremely odd that these industry wide shortages would only effect imac ram and imac lcds while ignoring all the other ram and lcds.

since i have been thinking about buying an imac i have been pricing ram since january. ram specific for the imac. as far as the individual consumer is concerned imac ram prices have dropped. maybe its rising for apple but not for me. this is one reason i waited. if i bought a 512mb chip in januray it would have cost me close to $200 now i can get it for $130.

and please dont make insulting statements about me "whining" about $100. im not whining about anything. im not even talking about my purchase or no purchase. these were stated side notes when they were mentioned at all. im simply pointing out that apple HAS lied to us about what the imac problem is, and i find it odd how people will fight and personally insult me just because they dont want to believe apple lied to them.

[AlphaTech]

I just checked memory pricing for both the G3 and G4 iMac systems (with a vendor that provides rock solid memory). A 512 chip for the G3 is running $135, a 512 chip for the G4 iMac is running $220.

Memory pricing can fluctuate wildly on a daily, if not hourly, basis. It could drop by a good amount one day, only to go back up even more the following one. From six months ago, memory prices have about doubled. How many people remember the sub $100 for a 512 chip (desktop)??

Articles have been published about the cost of LCD's going up, so it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

[Bobd]

Krossfyter, welcome to a world where there are other alternatives for a computer than to do creative work. How was Mars ?

[AmbitiousLemon]

Originally posted by AlphaTech
I just checked memory pricing for both the G3 and G4 iMac systems (with a vendor that provides rock solid memory). A 512 chip for the G3 is running $135, a 512 chip for the G4 iMac is running $220.

Memory pricing can fluctuate wildly on a daily, if not hourly, basis. It could drop by a good amount one day, only to go back up even more the following one. From six months ago, memory prices have about doubled. How many people remember the sub $100 for a 512 chip (desktop)??

Articles have been published about the cost of LCD's going up, so it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

i hate to be butting heads with you because you are a cool guy, but you do keep ignoring or missing my point. sure i can find overprices ram right now if i want. i can also find a 512mb g4imac chip for sub $100 if i want. none of that is relevant. the point i am making is ONLY the imac got a price jump. not only that but apple has promotions on ram and lcds in their other machines, with huge price cuts. this doesnt seem like a company that is having supply issues.

[chmorley]

Originally posted by Bobd
Krossfyter, welcome to a world where there are other alternatives for a computer than to do creative work. How was Mars ?

Is everyone there pissy and argumentative?

Krossfyter simply made a couple of statements of fact. He didn't state that all computers could be used for was creative stuff.

I'm starting to think you are Gocyrus. You make some comments that are clearly just designed to piss people off. If it's a language problem, then maybe I understand. It looks more like a thinking problem.

And I'm not sure how much creative work is done on Mars anymore. I think most of it is done on Uranus.

Chris

[AmbitiousLemon]

:) i love how "gocyrus" has become the universal term for a$$hole around here. its pretty funny, how whenever anyone gets too pissy or insulting we start accusing them of being gocyrus and they will quickly realize they got too offensive.

[Bobd]

Sorry if you think I meant to be agressive... I was merely trying to make a joke... never mind... and sorry again if I offended Krossfyre. And since it is Chmorley who posted, I guess I should apologize to you too, if you feel like I have not been correct to you as for the bluetooth affair (did you check the sites out, btw?)

Anyway, I think that Krossfyre missed my point. As I recall it, I myself stated that game consoles were good for gaming, so why did he have to state it again? You may feel I want to piss you off, but truly that's not my intention. I have a couple of things I'd like to say, and yes, some of these are not favorable to Apple, but I feel like I need to react when I believe something that was written is wrong, or if I feel that I know a bit of information that can be useful to others. Of course, I may just misunderstand some of what I read : then please let me know. Last post excluded (for reasons mentionned above), I think, as I re-read myself, that I have shown respect to people to which I answer in my posts, and if you feel I didn't, I know I tried and meant to... I have always tried to put things in perspective and apart from gaming, I have only stated very precise points and never general comments such as "Macs sucks" or such, which I believe are non interesting in a debating place.

Now comes what you may call "the insulting part" : again, i do not intend it to be, and please react to it if you should feel hurt.

My feeling, actually, is that you guys are a little bit touchy when it comes to criticizing your favorite computers. I mean, you do not like people saying that for some reason or another, Macs are not perfect. And of course, there are reasons why they are not. I feel like many Macusers would rather try not to see them and put a veil on their face (i hope that makes sense in English), and sort of manipulate the facts to their advantage, or chose the ones -and only the ones- that will make their point stronger. This applies more or less to some posts here, and more generally to the Mac universe (comparing G4 and P4/Athlon performance only on a few Photoshop filters will never be considered by me as a sufficient benchmark, and is too easily transformed into a G4>P4 where it should be G4 in Phtoshop > P4 in Photoshop).
Of course, thaere is a name for it, it is marketing, and of course Intel or AMD do it too. The thing is, while Mac users buy the marketing intentionnaly inaccurate statement, PC users usually don't. Well, at least, I don't. And can't understand why others do.

This may be a surprise to some of you, but I'm actually a Mac user too. I use G4's for editing purposes in 2 "offices" out of 3 that I work for, I love FCP. I was the one who made the call so that these business would buy G4's, I added a few things to make them fit my purposes. But I also use a PC at home for a thousand things, and I love it too. I would just like to have the best of both worlds, if you ask me... I just don't feel the same loyalty that you guys have towards Apple, because i have no sentimental or passionate involvement with computers. I have very often seen posts comparing Macs to car brands that are "cool", "great" etc. but I just don't understand it because I don't particularily like cars either. Actually, there is not many material things I'm attached to, if any... Thoses I feel more attached to are the ones I built or designed for myself, and therefore, I guess I would be more attached to my PC that I built from scratch than to Macs I use.

Anyway, this post is starting to be long and quite boring, and as I'm writing it, I'm starting to feel like I'm talking to a psychanalyst... :-) To sum it up, don't feel offended, I'm just trying to share a different perspective with you. Heck, we all need someone else's points of view sometimes...

[Bobd]

I have no idea who Gocyrus is. But if you call him an asshole and think it's me, don't you think that's insulting too? :-)

[chmorley]

You were fine with me about the Bluetooth stuff. I had my facts wrong. I checked out the links, and Sony had it first. I am not sure they did anything meaningful with it before Apple did, but that's not their fault. They even have it integrated into their machine, which is a step ahead of Apple.

I am personally not easily offended. I think your response to Krossfyter was pissy and missed the point.

I have never called gocyrus a name of any sort. He was anti-Mac and antagonistic. I think you have been fairly even-handed, but defend PC's more than most here. That's going to ruffle some feathers. As long as that's not your goal, I don't have an issue with you shooting down people's (somewhat inflated) opinions about our computers.

We get touchy because most people who criticize Macs have never given them a fair shot. Most people are utterly stupid about them, and that's frustrating as hell. And we get silly and stupid and give each other a hard time because...well, because we are people with strong opinions and a bit of passion. Hopefully we can all have a sense of humor about it.

By the way, did you know there's a ring around Uranus?

Chris

[Bobd]

Thanks for your answer. I tend to feel the same way you do, but on the other side. I believe a lot (not ll, far from it) of the critics I hear on Mac forums about PCs are innacurate when not completely wrong. But be sure that when I am on a PC forum and read nonsense about Macs, I react the same way...

As for the Gocyrus=a$$hole thing, I was refering to AmbitiousLemon, and didn't mean it serioulsy anyway.

[me hate windows]

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
well to clarify my feelinsg on the imac situation i thought i would post what i had to say about it from another thread:

personally this last thing in a string of many has made the new iMac the biggest blunder in apple history.

apple finally made a consumer product that all people would want to own. they spent massive amounts of money generating hype for this computer, drawing world attention to it which would come back to bite them in the end when the problems started.

the price from the beginning was a about $200 too much but for many people they bit the bullet and ordered it.

it was such an attractive deal that record numbers of iMacs were being ordered.

the new iMac was catching the eye of many pc users and the potencial for new converts and the first step in increasing market share seemed to have been taken.

but apple couldnt ship enough of the product. people were waiting months not weeks to get their computers. what started off as record numbers of orders was met by record numbers of cancelations. in fact apple was actually encouraging people to cancel their orders.

apple customer care was doing its best to antagonize the customers even more with lies and rude behavior... and thats if you got any response at all.

so the converts left. but now they had a really bad experience with apple that they would run out into the pc world and tell to all their friends and collegues. "joe over there tried to muy a mac but after fighting with apple's customer care for 3 months he finally just bought that nice little dell over there instead. go it in 3 days"

many people wanted an imac but just couldnt get one. they held out hoping the new machine would finally start shipping. the unavailability and high price scared them off. the fact that you could buy a powermac at nearly the same price made them question the imac purchase but it was just such a beautiful and powerful machine they kept hoping it would finally become available.

apple annouces increased prices rather than icreased availability and in addition to that, they flat out lied to all of their customers as to why the prices were increasing. anyone left considering buying an imac would have to be kicking themsleves for not ordering earlier (even though if they had they probably would still not have a computer) and many of these people would finally give up the dream. more lost converts and now a bunch of people who feel cheated.

and then there is that lie hanging over apple's head. blaming the increased imac prices on lcd and ram costs. as if any intelligient person would believe this for long. i dont know if any of you have checked but um... ram hasnt increased in price since january (since december yes but not since january, in fact the trend since january has been down ever so slightly). apple's ram is already highly overpriced so i find it hard to believe apple could find ram costing anymore than they are already claiming it costs. further more the imac is not the only apple with ram in it. perhaps you forgot about the ibook, powerbook, powermac? no ram increases there. no changes in price there. now thats odd. so the only ram that is increasing in price is imac ram ... sure. and lcds... well wouldnt you know it all of apple's computers also have lcds... again the imac is the only one with a price bump. in fact the powermac lcds have a significant rebate right now. certainly not a sign of increased lcd prices if you ask me. maybe its just those little lcds... o wait the ibook and powerbook have little lcds. again no price bumps there. in fact apple just unveiled a new lcd. bigger and more expensive than ever, now if lcd prices were increasing why would apple try to sell a bigger lcd that would be very vulnerable to price increases since it is already so expensive?

kind of odd that apple blames the price increase in the imac on parts that dont seem to be causing any problems in any other apple product. nope just the computer that apple suddenly noticed was much more highly demanded than they anticipated is meeting price increases.

the price increase isnt due to hardware. no thats just a way of saving face. apple simply decided that they could make more money by raising the price since they couldnt sell in large numbers. simple as that. if you cant produce a lot then the ones you do produce should earn you a lot. but apple could hardly get up there and say "hey kids didnt realize you guys liked this thing so much, now that i know this its really gonna cost you." i just cant imagine that going over well. so they make up a story about lcd prices and ram prices and hope no one sees through their little scheme.

so apple took a product that had the potencial to:
1) finally deliver mac os x to the masses
2) finally take steps toward increasing market share steve jobs has lost since he returned to apple
3) and finally improve apple's image with the masses regardless of whether they buy one or not
and turn it into a product that
1) gave more bad press and bad impressions of apple
2) made it harder to increase market share by pissing off massive numbers of potencial converts
3) make running a computer capable of running osx (a g4) even more unattainable to the consumer level buyer.
4) and degrade current customer loyalty by lying to and cheating customers

what this all boils down to is apple was stupid and didnt anticipate the demand for the new imac. actually they probably werent prepared for any high level of manufacturing of the new imac. so they definitely werent prepared for the massive orders they recieved. their customer care service wasnt prepared for the massive amounts of calls complaining and inquirying about where their computer was. so apple first tried to get some people to cancel to hopefully alleviate the problem. then someone decided that raising prices would maintain revenue and decrease demand so that they could catch up in their manufacturing and maybe give a break to their customer care service. we blame it on someone else and we dont even come out looking too bad.

if apple had been smart they would have spent all the money they wasted hyping this thing and spent it making sure their manufacturing was up to the task.



or maybe i am just bitter because i finally decided to buy one last week spent a week selling things and getting enough money scraped together only to find i suddenly didnt have enough because of apple's price increase.

but i got all this money now... maybe ill go buy a dell (jk, but seriously im not planning on buying anything from apple for a very long time not a boycott just a moratorium)

Go Lemon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I totally agree with you about all of this Apple crap. The ram and LCD thing is obviously a scam, because(as you mentioned above) all other Apples have LCD's and ram. So why just the iMac? Hmmmmmmmmmm...........
Their iPod prices are also really screwy. You can get that 10gig Toshiba thin drive thingy off of OWC for 150 dollars(U.S) So why do they charge so frickin much for the new iPod and not lower the other one? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...............................
:mad:
Steve is just trying to scam us because he thinks that we are super loyal and will never leave nomatter how high their prices get. I am not that loyal. And I don't think any of you should be either.

[AlphaTech]

Originally posted by me hate windows


Go Lemon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I totally agree with you about all of this Apple crap. The ram and LCD thing is obviously a scam, because(as you mentioned above) all other Apples have LCD's and ram. So why just the iMac? Hmmmmmmmmmm...........
Their iPod prices are also really screwy. You can get that 10gig Toshiba thin drive thingy off of OWC for 150 dollars(U.S) So why do they charge so frickin much for the new iPod and not lower the other one? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...............................
:mad:
Steve is just trying to scam us because he thinks that we are super loyal and will never leave nomatter how high their prices get. I am not that loyal. And I don't think any of you should be either.

The drive that is listed at OWC is the 2.5" (standard laptop drive) NOT the 1.8" that is in the iPod... Get your facts straight.

[AmbitiousLemon]

the ipod price does seem about right when looking at the price of similiar 5-10gig drives. the price of the drive alone is about as much as the entire ipod.

so although i appreciate the agreement id have to say the ipod is quite reasonably priced

[jelloshotsrule]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by agreenster

>And yeah, I know all about the consumer vs professional models. I have both the TiBook and a G4 tower. But I have seen the iMac (the old one) and I have seen the iBooks. Jesus--what a crock. The iBook is the size of a calculator and the old iMac is so dumbed down, you can barely consider it workable. The top of the line macs (as I have already said) should be the bottom rung-standard. I opted for the TiBook and the G4 Tower because anything less would just be simply unnacceptable.

you're saying that the imac can't be used for word processing, email, internet stuff, etc? and even some imovie type video editing? i haven't seen that to be the case. and if you're saying it can't render your 3D project in maya, well then i think that's perfectly fine. that's why there are the dual 8 or gigs...

>And ya know what? Consumers DO need the 23 inch monitor. And you know why? Because they are buying from Apple, supposedly the best computer company in the world. They SHOULD have a monitor that blows the competition away--and they should be able to afford it. Why should they settle for less just because computers arent involved in their way of making a living? Damn. How selfish is THAT?

so, by the same logic, anyone who gets a car should be able to afford a BMW or Lexus? that is not how capitalism works really. not to say that apple's computers are on that level, but you are the one calling them the best computer company in the world. i can't afford a BMW, which some might consider the best car company. but i could probably put together enough money for a mac.

>And yes---you ask anyone why they dont want to switch to a Mac --money. Money money money. MONEY! The fact that they would have to relearn some functions of OSX are secondary. It always comes back to the cost points. And whats all this you are saying about the "great" applications for the Mac? Huh? Like what? iTunes? Big deal. iPhoto? Whoopy. Any piece of software worth noting is always made third party. OSX is nice, and the power of Unix is nice, but touting Apple as a great app maker is kinda silly.

my friend's mom just got a new dell. not because of price. but because she didn't want to learn a new operating system. so it doesn't ALWAYS come back to money.

[IndyGopher]

Originally posted by me hate windows


Go Lemon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I totally agree with you about all of this Apple crap. The ram and LCD thing is obviously a scam, because(as you mentioned above) all other Apples have LCD's and ram. So why just the iMac? Hmmmmmmmmmm...........

Because the iMacs are sold at 20% GPM, the other machines at 30%.

Their iPod prices are also really screwy. You can get that 10gig Toshiba thin drive thingy off of OWC for 150 dollars(U.S) So why do they charge so frickin much for the new iPod and not lower the other one? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...............................

First, no, you can't buy that drive for $150 from OWC (or anyone else) So take a pill. What IS it with you people and the iPod? Either buy it or don't. Judging the value of the machine by the cost of the drive, though, is just stupid. Yes, if you're curious, this IS a personal attack, and I AM calling you stupid. I can buy a 30 Gig laptop drive for $200, so that is all a G4 Titanium Powerbook is worth. Do you see how stupid that sounds??

Steve is just trying to scam us because he thinks that we are super loyal and will never leave nomatter how high their prices get. I am not that loyal. And I don't think any of you should be either.

Did you think he was your buddy? That Apple, with four BILLION dollars in the bank, was run by people who wanted you to get the best possible deal on the newest possible technology? Wake up. Grow up. And go buy your Dell. Please.

[Bobd]

Indygopher, I think you didn't get what me hate windows meant about the Toshiba drive price. He's definitely not saying that iPod price = HD price, but that since the Toshiba's HD costs $150 the new iPod should not be $100 more expensive than the previous one, since that's the only new feature (and, should I add, there are reasonnable chances that Toshiba's prices have gone down since iPod 5Gb). Anyway, I believe AphaTech posted to say that the numbers were not right... So no big deal. But I think you should read a little more carefully before you call anyone stupid.

[AlphaTech]

Originally posted by Bobd
Indygopher, I think you didn't get what me hate windows meant about the Toshiba drive price. He's definitely not saying that iPod price = HD price, but that since the Toshiba's HD costs $150 the new iPod should not be $100 more expensive than the previous one, since that's the only new feature (and, should I add, there are reasonnable chances that Toshiba's prices have gone down since iPod 5Gb). Anyway, I believe AphaTech posted to say that the numbers were not right... So no big deal. But I think you should read a little more carefully before you call anyone stupid.

AGAIN... The Toshiba drive that is listing for $150 is for LAPTOPS!!!! NOT THE IPOD!!!! I just did a search at www.googlegear.com (has some of the best prices around and a good customer support team to boot), they only have the 2GB and 5GB 1.8" Hard Drives... listing for $299.99 and $364.99 respectively. Considering how those prices shift, I WOULD NOT BE SURPRISED if the 10GB drive sells for close to $500.

Before you start pricing out drives, make sure you are looking at the correct one, or expect more comments along these lines. Considering how the iPod's OUTSIDE dimensions are at 2.43"wide by 4.02" long by .78" thick, how would you put a 2.5" hard drive inside???

Think people...

[Bobd]

Originally posted by AlphaTech


AGAIN... The Toshiba drive that is listing for $150 is for LAPTOPS!!!! NOT THE IPOD!!!! I just did a search at www.googlegear.com (has some of the best prices around and a good customer support team to boot), they only have the 2GB and 5GB 1.8" Hard Drives... listing for $299.99 and $364.99 respectively. Considering how those prices shift, I WOULD NOT BE SURPRISED if the 10GB drive sells for close to $500.

Before you start pricing out drives, make sure you are looking at the correct one, or expect more comments along these lines. Considering how the iPod's OUTSIDE dimensions are at 2.43"wide by 4.02" long by .78" thick, how would you put a 2.5" hard drive inside???

Think people...

Well, my post was only to react to IndyGopher judgment which I found too quickly made. I tried to explain me hate windows' point, and didn't say a word on wether or not I suscribed to it. Actually, I even mentionned you, saying you had already rectified IndyGopher's statement...

Read people... :)

Still, one can get the facts wrong but have a good explanation. Having not myself researched prices of HD and compared 5gb to 10Gb, and not willing to, I'm not going to debate about wether his point (too high a price deifference as compared to the HD prices) is valid or not; my post was only a reaction to IndyGopher's calling someone stupid for, I think, no valid reason.