Greg Joswiak's Feature Presentation [Archive]

freundt

Jul 16, 2003, 10:35 AM

I want to swtich. I really do.

To the poster who said just buyy a TiBook I say, I do not want to buy a laptop that is roughly 8+ months old and still using "last generation" tech sdram chips.

Sure, I don;t need the latest and greatest, but I do need a machine that's gonna last me for 3 or 4 years, and still be a viable machine then.

The 12" is too underpowered and small for me. The 17" is way too big. So I need a 15" laptop.

I wanted to switch to mac just for OSX and Apple's stance on privacy issues and fair use issues.

However, to do so was gonna cost me alot of money, not just for the computer, but for all the software I'm going to have to buy again. (Photoshop, Flash, Freehand, etc...)
I was willing to swallow the cost, because I want to believe.

But damnit. I'm just frustrated at this point. Do I save myself a few grand and get a Dell? Or wait till god knows when and get a new 15".

*sigh*

It's my issue and I have to deal with it. I don't blame apple, they are doing what they think is best. It's just sad...very vey sad that I am seriously considering a buying a Windows laptop now...

Forgive the long post, I'm just goona go slink off now and cry.

macFanDave

Jul 16, 2003, 10:35 AM

the Joz of Life!

I'm sorry but that pun has infected my brain for the past couple of days and I felt the need to be a vector!

yzedf

Jul 16, 2003, 10:35 AM

jxyama

Jul 16, 2003, 10:39 AM

i think some of us take the word "obsolete" too literally...

consider this: say an average car "lasts" 6 years. computer, on the other hand, lasts 3 years.

would you buy a car that hasn't had any model change for the last two years? worse yet, car related technology doesn't improve anywhere near as fast as computer related tech.

it's not absolutely "obsolete" but to not update a year old laptop is a big mistake.

also, you cannot tell others to settle for either a 12 or a 17. 15 is a very good standard middle size for a laptop, both physical size and (usually) performance/price wise. i cannot fault others one bit for wanting an updated 15. it's not whining at all.

MasterMac

Jul 16, 2003, 10:40 AM

Ah well. I've been waiting for a long time anyway so I'm fine with waiting a little longer. Besides, I'm not missing out on much anyway, just being able to play a few games better, but other than that my 400MHz iMac will still work for me up until they do announce it, whenever that may be :)

jstef

Jul 16, 2003, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by snahabed
I want to take all of you whining babies and throw you off a cliff. Or a building. Or a really tall chair.

There will ALWAYS be newer models. What is wrong with the TiG4 15"? NOTHING. I have one, and it is amazing. You should all be learning a lesson about postponing purchases based on rumors and hunches.

Honestly, if you want a desktop replacement, get a 17".
If you want a true portable, get at 12".
If for some reason, you have convinced yourself that 15 is a magical number, then bloody buy a Titanium model or keep waiting.

But for the love of god, stop. the. whining.

Whenever you complain about anyone doing anything on a message board, you open yourself up to attack. So don't complain about complainers, or they'll start complaining about you.

If the sheer volume of bitching doesn't prove that a 15" AlBook would be a big hit, then I don't know what does. Apple dropped the ball. They should have never updated the 12" and 17" without updating the 15". When your average Joe User looks at the 15" next to the 12" and 17", it looks outdated. Now when that same Joe User hits the Apple rumor sites, which all tell him that the 15" AlBook is coming soon, it's hard not to wait.

Apple isn't releasing the 15" anytime soon, by the looks of it, and I (and apparantly many others) am not going to wait much longer. I don't want a computer that's lagging behind the rest of the pack. Apple had a chance to pimp the new 15" to students, but it's getting a little to close to the school year now.

astray

Jul 16, 2003, 10:40 AM

I have to say that you guys are being harsh on those who want the 15", there are many reasons not to get the Tibook, it's paint chips, it tends to have poor wifi reception, it has a slower bus speed. Also its months overdue for an update, and few people will buy something nealry updated unless they needed to. It's their money and they dont want to be let down by having their laptop replaced with a newer rev. within weeks of buying it.
Personally, i think that Apple is trying to drive home the G5 at the moment, so we won't see any new hardware for at least 2-3 weeks, unless it's a new mouse/keyboard to go with the G5.

Rustus Maximus

Jul 16, 2003, 10:41 AM

Originally posted by moosecat
In a market full of highly sophisticated, media-savvy consumers, companies have to cater to the expectations of their customers. If Apple knows -- and has known for months -- that people will be expecting something at MWNY, and if Apple knows that some of those people will go Dell if nothing comes, then it's just plain stupid to wait for no good reason for a "random summer Tuesday."

I believe there must, in fact, be a good reason for the fact that no hardware product was announced today. And that reason is not just that Apple is PO'ed at IDG, or flexing its corporate right to make arbitrary decisions.

That's right...and that good reason is the fact that they aren't ready...nothing else. Apple may have attitude sometimes, but business is business and they won't do something that will hurt their ability to make sales or hurt their long term profitability. So why rush something out or make teaser announcements about something that isn't fully ready to go.

Steve said this is the year of the laptop so I expect we will see some important updates to the PB line soon...for those whom the 17 inch laptop wasn't enough...just not right now. MWParis seems like a good bet.

And as for all these 'switchers' Apple is 'losing' because of their delay. The PB line as it is is FAR superior overall to ANYTHING available on the PC side. So these saying they are going to go with Dell, blah, blah, blah....were going to go with Dell anyway, mainly because of price. There is nothing wrong with the present line of PBs, as snahabed said earlier.

So buy one now...or wait...but there will ALWAYS be a bigger, badder computer around the corner....it's an endless race...ENDLESS...

Just enjoy the run ;)

robodweeb

Jul 16, 2003, 10:43 AM

I can't stall my boss any longer ... Steve just sold 4 Toshiba 15" laptops (and made me look stupid in the process) ... and the rest of our research group will almost certainly switch over the coming year.

It's not just a hardware cycle. The current line is perfectly adequate. However, it's difficult to defend a decision to purchase hardware that hasn't been updated in a while and for which there are no announced plans to update ... particularly when you're defending against PC advocates who have multiple vendors, reliable/consistent product upgrade cycles, and a clear commitment to working with its users (their vendors visit our offices and keep us informed about their product plans). It's not about price or simply about this feature or that ... we simply can't depend on Apple.

Yes, Apple is a business but, you know what? So are we. We have to get work done and we have to make smart buying decisions. Such decisions can't easily depend on whimsical vendors. And the differential between Apple's products and its competitors is not so great as to make it any easier.

We're grown-ups and understand about delays in new products. But we need to be able to have some understanding of what to expect in order to make our purchase decisions. We can't let our work be held hostage by Apple. Since Apple doesn't seem to get this and apparently can't even tell its user community what's going on with the product line, we're just tired of pandering to Apple's peurile marketing behavior.

As a die-hard Mac user since 1987, I'm heartsick at having been forced to make such a decision. I don't look forward to wrestling with Windows until our next refresh cycle in 3 years but, at least, I know I can ge some work done. And I can stop giving a damn about Seve Jobs' whimsy ...

Good luck to all of you waiting for updated 15" Powerbooks ...

snahabed

Jul 16, 2003, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by KrazyKidd
WHy should i spend hard earned money on something thats good, but outdated. The G4 PowerMac was awesome, dual 1.25 Ghz, it ran the programs great. The G5 had to come out tho, even though the g4 was good. I believe that patience is the key, but a lot of us have been patient for a while.

Everything is outdated the second you buy it. New cars depreciate as soon as you take them off the lot. Be sure that there is always a new Powerbook or {shudder} Dell laptop in production or being planned.

I would love to know exactly what great performance gains you and others are expecting of a new 15" Powerbook. You do realize it will be a G4, right? Has there been ANY G4 > 1ghz in a portable yet? No. Even if it were speed bumped... to what? 1.1? 1.2? And to what effect with respect to heat?

All the bellyaching for a tiny (if any) speed bump, and maybe airport extreme (the bandwidth of which will be mostly unused by most people), and Aluminum instead of Titanium? You have got to be kidding me!

The difference between a dual 2Ghz G5 and a dual 1.25Ghz G4 is colossal. The difference between a 1ghz AlG4 15" and 1ghz TiG4 15" is pretty much.....paint.

Check yourself before you wreck yourself!

Edit: You people are truly unbelievable. I am shocked. You all ACTUALLY will consider an entire gorgeously engineered TiG4 obsolete because of paint chips (mine has not one chip or scratch after 6 months), the possibility of internal BT (my dongle works just fine), and "poor" airport reception (I have no problems with this at all). Seriously. Yeah, Ok people, get some Dells, I am sure they will never get a scratch, I am sure they have internal and OS-supported BT, I am sure they dont suffer from WiFi Reception problems that all PC Cards I've seen have. Right. Sure.

vrapan

Jul 16, 2003, 10:45 AM

OK now I was expecting new from this one not because I knew anything but just from the speculations. I 've recently switched to Apple (early March with a 12" PB) and seeing the 15" one getting Al and minor updates to the rest would be interesting. However there are a few things that I don't understand. Why do they have to announce a new PB in mid July? Students you say. But if students need an Apple com they will buy one. They dont have to buy one now and they certainly dont have to buy one in August. They will buy it a few weeks before schools start ie September. That means to me that the only reason why you all wanted one now is because you expected it and well it didnt materialise. On the other hand people that consider Dells think of what you are saying.... You wanted the 15PB aluminium or any Dell. I mean you disregard the whole lineup of Apple notebooks, you disregard the difference of OS the platform you diregard all the advantages of Apples only because Apple did not update one of its products 2 months ahead of you going to school or needing it. Now to me that does not sound like a serious switcher. If all you want from Apple is an Al 15PB then you might not want an Apple at all and if Dell made an Al 15 PC you would have stuck with them. Or if Apple never introduced Al laptops and they kept Ti for their 12 and 17 inchers then would you have bought it???? Would it feel more or less outdated then... My point? if you wanted a 15" PB for it's Al casing it is too shallow of a reason to buy a Mac. If you dont want a Mac enough to consider the rest of the lineup or wait another month or two to see if what you want is coming then you are definitely not going to spend 2500$ for a Mac. I bought my PB for 1800 in Feb it has then lost some 500 of its value you can call it obsolete now or in a month or two but I couldn't be happier and I am never going back to Wintel even if a new 15" never comes along..... If what you want is a good 15" now and you are serious about the Mac platform then buy a 15" TiG4 now and stop complaining.

Lanbrown

Jul 16, 2003, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by Rustus Maximus
I guess my question for everyone who is dissapointed here is...

Why do they have to announce new products at one of the expos? Who says that can't and won't announce new PBs as SpeedRacr26 said, 'on some random summer Tuesday'?

I agree. Sun used to do the same thing, only announce things at a convention or another event. Early this year they said when something is ready to be released, it will. Apple should take the same approach.

NNO-Stephen

Jul 16, 2003, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by KrazyKidd
im sure there were a lot of nissan fans waiting for a new 350z to come out. Should that go with the 300zx or keep waiting. Both are great cars, but the 350z....the 350z was gonna be so nice and great and better. Who wants to spend $$$$ on a car thats good but outdated when its obivious that a new model thats better and faster etc. is coming out soon.

WHy should i spend hard earned money on something thats good, but outdated. The G4 PowerMac was awesome, dual 1.25 Ghz, it ran the programs great. The G5 had to come out tho, even though the g4 was good. I believe that patience is the key, but a lot of us have been patient for a while.

very true. I want a PowerBook, but I am not getting one till Apple decides to pull their head out and release one! it is lacking in airport range, no airport extreme, the paint chips, the paint... is paint, they keyboard is not nearly as nice as the new ones, it does not have DDR RAM, and does not have bluetooth built-in. so yeah, there is every reason to wait. I am not going to buy an out-dated product that is overdue for an update. flame me for it if you want, but it's my money and I dont want to pay this years price for last years model.

MasterMac

Jul 16, 2003, 10:46 AM

MacOSRumors said that *one* model will be shipping significantly sooner than the other two once they are updated. That implies that the announcement could possibly be sometime in July or August:

Word on the street is that new 'books are already being manufactured and that all three new models should be shipping in quantity by September, at least one of them significantly sooner.

All I can do is hope that this one model is the 15'' :D

Mokona

Jul 16, 2003, 10:46 AM

Well, all we had was loose speculation.

When's the next expo/event due?

Anyway. I'm gonna keep crossing my fingers every tuesday until something new comes out. I wish for it to happen within the next two weeks, thats when I get the insurance money for my last (stolen) laptop. A 6.5 pound monster. It sported a Northwood P4 at 2.8 GHz... Drained batteries like nothing else but was a good gaming platform. Wish for a 12" PB though. If not then I get a new sager.

agreenster

Jul 16, 2003, 10:47 AM

Well.....

Dont forget DDR ram:rolleyes:

Lyle

Jul 16, 2003, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by freundt
I want to swtich. I really do.

To the poster who said just buy a TiBook I say, I do not want to buy a laptop that is roughly 8+ months old and still using "last generation" tech sdram chips.

Sure, I don;t need the latest and greatest, but I do need a machine that's gonna last me for 3 or 4 years, and still be a viable machine then.

The 12" is too underpowered and small for me. The 17" is way too big. So I need a 15" laptop.

I wanted to switch to mac just for OSX and Apple's stance on privacy issues and fair use issues.

However, to do so was gonna cost me alot of money, not just for the computer, but for all the software I'm going to have to buy again. (Photoshop, Flash, Freehand, etc...)
I was willing to swallow the cost, because I want to believe.

But damnit. I'm just frustrated at this point. Do I save myself a few grand and get a Dell? Or wait till god knows when and get a new 15".

*sigh*

It's my issue and I have to deal with it. I don't blame apple, they are doing what they think is best. It's just sad...very vey sad that I am seriously considering a buying a Windows laptop now...Well said, freundt. I think your comments reflect the position of a lot of us who really, really want to switch to Apple. But I'm growing tired of getting jerked around. Due to past experience with Dell, I can assure you that they will never get another dime of my money; but it is seeming more and more likely that my next computer will be an IBM ThinkPad instead of an Apple PowerBook.

sockseller

Jul 16, 2003, 10:49 AM

I think Apple has a problem with doing really well for a while and meeting all their customer's expectations, then losing touch and screwing their loyalists over in order to make a quick buck. I am going to school in late August, and I need a new computer, even if it was announced today, it probably wouldn't of been in my hands the day school starts(because new products are virtually never ready to ship the same day they are released, plus shipping, etc...). And if I'm going to be spending $3500 for a top of the line 15", I'd rather wait 2 more months now, than live with currently 9 months old technology for the next 5 years(which is how long I plan on having it, hell I kept my Performa 6200 all the way up until early last year).

The 12 is too small and the 17 is too big, my school is all proud about how wide spreading and great their wireless capabilites are, and I wasnt to be able to take advantage....

So it looks like buying an old cheap Pbook on eBay for a couple months and then getting the new 15" when it comes out...

Flowbee

Jul 16, 2003, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by themadchemist
It's sad to see how many switchers have been lost just because Apple does not have a new PB out. And that's just on MacRumors. And just this morning within a couple hours of the event.

I honestly believe that most of those people would have found another reason not to buy an Apple (too expensive, too slow, crappy graphics card, no usb 2.0, etc). The real beneift of Mac is not the hardware or case design (though those are big pluses), but rather being able to use OS X. And the fact is, you can't run OS X on a Dell.

Even on the best PC available, windows is still windows.

Rustus Maximus

Jul 16, 2003, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by Flowbee
And the fact is, you can't run OS X on a Dell.

Doesn't a Dell explode when it tries to run Marklar? They proved that in lab tests I think...didn't they?

illumin8

Jul 16, 2003, 10:56 AM

Does anyone else feel that bitching in these forums like all of us have been doing is getting us nowhere? It's painfully obvious that no Apple employees ever read these threads or if they do they are not in a position of power to cause Apple to change anything.

I propose that we start a massive campaign of calling people at Apple Corporate that are in charge of release schedules and telling them how much money they are losing. Does anyone have the names and phone numbers of some people at Apple that we should call? I think if someone at Apple corporate got 100 calls from people saying something like "I have $3000 burning a hole in my pocket that you'll never see unless you release a new 15" PB", we might get a response...

Ah... ***** it, I might as well just get a Dell instead, it's not worth the trouble.

Apple seems to like treating their customers with the mushroom theory:

Keep 'em in the dark and feed 'em *****.

snahabed

Jul 16, 2003, 10:57 AM

Oh and how is Apple jerking you around?

Show me exactly where Apple has announced an Aluminum G4 15" Powerbook.

Go ahead. I'll wait.

Still waiting.

Oh that's right, they never have. Your own artificial expectations based on rumor sites are what jerked you around.

If 15" is of primary importance, get a TiG4.
If the Airport Extreme, "DDR" RAM, BT, and Aluminum are of primary importance, get a 12" or 17".

If I were in the market now, I would get a 17". It is not THAT much bigger than a 15"!

vrapan

Jul 16, 2003, 10:59 AM

A truth said in this forum. People get your act together and decide what you want a casing no matter what the OS or a OS no matter what the casing. Mac OSX rocks I can't wait for Panther and I would happily run it on an "outdated" 15" PB Ti rather than running XP on any brand new gorgeous cool lappy.... There are two more months anyway .... and in any case Apple was not that happy about this MacWorld to do it the honor and announce new things especially if they couldn't ship them the same moment.

TWinbrook46636

Jul 16, 2003, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by snahabed

If I were in the market now, I would get a 17". It is not THAT much bigger than a 15"!

Uh, maybe some of us don't want something that big. Yes, it is big. Very big!

NNO-Stephen

Jul 16, 2003, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by snahabed
If 15" is of primary importance, get a TiG4.
If the Airport Extreme, "DDR" RAM, BT, and Aluminum are of primary importance, get a 12" or 17".

If I were in the market now, I would get a 17". It is not THAT much bigger than a 15"!

yes, the 17" IS THAT much bigger. have you ever used one? that takes the portable out of... portable. think desktop replacement.

You have to admit apple left a big hole in the mid range PowerBook offerings when they did not update it with the other two. it's feature lacking and there should at least be deep discounts on it if they are not going to update it for 2/3+ of a year.

Lyle

Jul 16, 2003, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by snahabed
Oh and how is Apple jerking you around?

Show me exactly where Apple has announced an Aluminum G4 15" Powerbook.

Go ahead. I'll wait.

Still waiting.

Oh that's right, they never have. Your own artificial expectations based on rumor sites are what jerked you around.Absolutely correct, no argument there.

If 15" is of primary importance, get a TiG4.
If the Airport Extreme, "DDR" RAM, BT, and Aluminum are of primary importance, get a 12" or 17".

If I were in the market now, I would get a 17". It is not THAT much bigger than a 15"! According to my calculations, the 17" PowerBook is about $700.00 bigger than the 15" PowerBook.;)

TWinbrook46636

Jul 16, 2003, 11:12 AM

Websnapx2

Jul 16, 2003, 11:13 AM

Originally posted by KrazyKidd
Who wants to spend $$$$ on a car thats good but outdated when its obivious that a new model thats better and faster etc. is coming out soon.

First off we don't know when "soon" is. "Soon" has ben for the last 4 months. But that is besides the point. There is ALWAYS SOMETHING BETTER COMING - always. If you don't know this, than you must be new to the world of tech.

All you people talkling about going to dell don't really care for the mac at all. There is nothing - NOTHING - that a 12' - 17" (including the TiBook) can't do that a dell can. Most importantly is the OS, and if you all have forgoten that, your on the wrong board.

TWinbrook46636

Jul 16, 2003, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by snahabed
Oh that's right, they never have. Your own artificial expectations based on rumor sites are what jerked you around.

No, it's based on the simple logic that a model that was made obsolete by back in January would have been updated by now.

plinkoman

Jul 16, 2003, 11:18 AM

aren't they just waiting for the 7457 chips before any major updates? because seriously, ddr ram and better paint is going to make an extreamly little difference in how well the thing performs, so why would they update that, just to make another update in a month or two with the better processors? that would just make everyone who got it now hate themselves for not waiting an extra month for a faster processor.

snahabed

Jul 16, 2003, 11:19 AM

OK Fair enough, the 17" is more expensive... but who knows how an updated 15" would be priced.

I have used the 17", yes, and overall it is an extra pound and a couple inches wider. I find it hard to believe that is make or break. The 15" is pretty big too. If small size is a concern, the 12" is a great deal. And if you really need the size compromise, then the TiG4 is a great machine.

I just find it hard to fathom that someone would want to switch to Mac, and there are tons upon tons of configurations and options, and yet people will find tiny excuses and nitpick. I'd love the Dual G5 to be shipping TODAY. I'd love Panther to be shipping TODAY, but it's not, so I'll use the next best thing until then (G4 and Jag). The next best thing to THAT is G3 and Jag. The next best thing to THAT is G3 and OS9. The next best thing to THAT is Linux on anything. And after that, I would become Amish and shun computing altogether.

Rustus Maximus

Jul 16, 2003, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by illumin8
Does anyone else feel that bitching in these forums like all of us have been doing is getting us nowhere? It's painfully obvious that no Apple employees ever read these threads or if they do they are not in a position of power to cause Apple to change anything.....I think if someone at Apple corporate got 100 calls from people saying something like "I have $3000 burning a hole in my pocket that you'll never see unless you release a new 15" PB", we might get a response...

Consumer corporate terrorism? Well, even if they got 10,000 calls, if it isn't ready then it isn't ready. Apple is pretty good about not releasing meaningless updates. Who knows, maybe there is a delay because the mobile G5 will be ready sooner than expected, anybody chewing on that possibility yet? Remember, they are AHEAD of schedule with the G5...mainly because IBM is a professional player in the processor game, they are in it to win it.

Originally posted by robodweeb
I can't stall my boss any longer ... Steve just sold 4 Toshiba 15" laptops (and made me look stupid in the process) ... and the rest of our research group will almost certainly switch over the coming year......As a die-hard Mac user since 1987, I'm heartsick at having been forced to make such a decision. I don't look forward to wrestling with Windows until our next refresh cycle in 3 years but, at least, I know I can ge some work done. And I can stop giving a damn about Seve Jobs' whimsy ...

Good luck to all of you waiting for updated 15" Powerbooks ...

What exactly don't you like about the 17" PB? Why not go with that, given all of the advanced features it has? You won't find a comparably featured PC for much less, plus this PC would be running the Windoze you are apparently dreading wrestling with. What exactly is preventing you from getting work done with the present line of PBs? They are terrific notebooks with a terrific OS.

You won't even have to wrestle with it...unless you want to ;)

TechHistorian

Jul 16, 2003, 11:26 AM

Obsolete? The 15" is obsolete? You mean it doesn't run OS X? Yes, it may not be brand-spankin' new, it might not have all the latest and greatest technology, but it is not "obsolete." An original 128K Mac is obsolete ....

Hodapp

Jul 16, 2003, 11:29 AM

Well I'm in the same boat as robodweeb. I sold my boss on new laptops for my team about a month ago, and I was hoping for an announcement at WWDC, and now one this week. We're going to be forced to go the PC route soon enough if Apple doesn't release, OR AT LEAST announce new Powerbooks. My team of developers all agree that the 17 is too big to be as portable as we need it to be, and the 12 is too small/underpowered for every day use... Which leaves the 15. Working for an IT company, having bleeding edge hardware in the office is sort of... almost a bragging right.

My boss would laugh in my face if I suggested, "Well we've waited a month, but let's buy these 15 inch Powerbooks, that are just as expensive as better/comparable PC's, but they have all kinds of problems AND run on SDRAM like your old AMD Thunderbird!"

Myself, and my guys REALLY want to switch, we've become captivated by the whole Apple culture, we just can't until there's new hardware. We will be purchasing either 15 inch Powerbooks, or the new Sager 8890. Whichever comes first. ...And sadly, with not a peep from Apple, I think it might be the Sager.

crobben

Jul 16, 2003, 11:30 AM

Apple should continue to focus on making big announcements at WWDC. This gives them time to ramp up production and advertising before most school's fall semesters begin, and before the end of the fiscal year for many gov't offices and businesses when money left over in their budgets must be spent or lost.

Lord Bodak

Jul 16, 2003, 11:32 AM

Hodapp

Jul 16, 2003, 11:33 AM

Originally posted by Lord Bodak
THANK YOU!!!!!
If you want a PowerBook, buy a PowerBook. If you want a Dell, buy a Dell. If you _really_ want a PowerBook, it doesn't matter if it's a Titanium or Aluminum or what-- you'll buy the PowerBook; there is nothing wrong with the current ones.

The problem with that is, to upper management that's footing the bill for most of us to upgrade to new computers... It's nearly impossible to sell them on 'old' hardware. It's a stupid business decision for them, no matter how great you guys think the current 15 incher is.

Lord Bodak

Jul 16, 2003, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by KrazyKidd
im sure there were a lot of nissan fans waiting for a new 350z to come out. Should that go with the 300zx or keep waiting. Both are great cars, but the 350z....the 350z was gonna be so nice and great and better. Who wants to spend $$$$ on a car thats good but outdated when its obivious that a new model thats better and faster etc. is coming out soon.

WHy should i spend hard earned money on something thats good, but outdated. The G4 PowerMac was awesome, dual 1.25 Ghz, it ran the programs great. The G5 had to come out tho, even though the g4 was good. I believe that patience is the key, but a lot of us have been patient for a while.

First off, what's "outdated" about it? There is no faster portable G4 for you to buy instead; that makes it top of the line, not outdated.

Sure, there are faster desktop processors-- but I could buy a PC desktop with a faster processor than any PC laptop too, and that does not make all PC laptops outdated.

On the Nissan side, the Z is a bad example, as the 300ZX was discontinued a few years before the 350Z was available.

Hodapp

Jul 16, 2003, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by Lord Bodak

Sure, there are faster desktop processors-- but I could buy a PC desktop with a faster processor than any PC laptop too, and that does not make all PC laptops outdated.

Not true, you can get PC laptops that are just as fast processor and memory wise as desktop PC's, and they're usually only a few weeks behind. Look in to Sager or Alienware laptops if you don't believe me :)

crobben

Jul 16, 2003, 11:37 AM

Announcing products "whenever they are ready" is OK for other computer companies, but Apple gets tons of free advertising, from the Wall Street Journal to your local newspaper, when they make product announcements at the big shows (WWDC, MacWorld, etc). Anybody ever place a value on that? Just tell people when the product will really ship. Customers will appreciate the honesty and can plan their budgets.

Lord Bodak

Jul 16, 2003, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by jstef
If the sheer volume of bitching doesn't prove that a 15" AlBook would be a big hit, then I don't know what does. Apple dropped the ball. They should have never updated the 12" and 17" without updating the 15". When your average Joe User looks at the 15" next to the 12" and 17", it looks outdated. Now when that same Joe User hits the Apple rumor sites, which all tell him that the 15" AlBook is coming soon, it's hard not to wait.

The sheer volume of talk here on Macrumors really makes little difference to Apple. Even with Apple's relatively small market share, the percentage of users who follow rumor sites like this enough to even have a _clue_ that a new 15" might have been coming is so small that it probably has little to no affect on how many TiBooks Apple sells.

plinkoman

Jul 16, 2003, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by io_burn
The problem with that is, to upper management that's footing the bill for most of us to upgrade to new computers... It's nearly impossible to sell them on 'old' hardware. It's a stupid business decision for them, no matter how great you guys think the current 15 incher is.

yea, update them now, have everyone buy one now and have everyone whine and complain a month later when the 7457 is put in them? that would be a stupid business decision

Websnapx2

Jul 16, 2003, 11:41 AM

Hodapp

Jul 16, 2003, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by plinkoman
yea, update them now, have everyone buy one now and have everyone whine and complain a month later when the 7457 is put in them? that would be a stupid business decision

The exact problem is no one has any idea when the 7457 will be released. We have to rely on RUMOR sites to get any kind of product roadmap or speculated release dates for anything Apple makes. This, in my opinion is one of the contributing factors to the small market share. Companies like to budget stuff out LONG in advance. How can you budget for your IT department, running Apple hardware if everything is a suprise? You can't... And that's exactly MY problem.

plinkoman

Jul 16, 2003, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by Websnapx2
Smart business should know that something new is always in the horizon. You can't please everyone.

yea, but also, if they released an updated pb now, then a month later, another updated pb with the 7457, everyone who has been dying for an aluminum pb will have already bought them, and they'll get no sales on the 7457 pb. and sure, something new is always on the horizon, but a month between updates is just not enough time

QCassidy352

Jul 16, 2003, 11:48 AM

to those of you who think others are whining:
first of all, most of you seem like Tibook owners who are getting defensive about your computers, which makes you a lot less credible.
second, the fact is, people don't like to pay full price for last year's model. Many years the new year's model of car is really no better than that of the previous year, but once it's "dated," it loses value. Now be honest - how many of you would go to a dealership today and pay full price for a 2003 car?
third, there ARE problems with the Tibooks! Jobs said so in so many words at MWSF. It's stunning that 8 months later, they are still trying to sell a product for full price that they admitted to be flawed!

look, I wouldn't pay full price for last years model, and I don't think many of you would either. So cut the crap. Even if the Tibooks are "good enough," nobody likes to feel like they are being cheated. And in the world of tech, full price for an 8 month old product is being ripped off.

jbomber

Jul 16, 2003, 11:51 AM

glad i overslept and saved myself $35.

not glad about the continued lack of a 15" powerbook.

say what you will about apple knowing best- this DEFINITELY feels like a big mistake on their part.

betoranaldi

Jul 16, 2003, 11:52 AM

Who's to say they wont announce the updates Next Tuesday just to spite the IDG people?

cubist

Jul 16, 2003, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by Lord Bodak
... On the Nissan side, the Z is a bad example, as the 300ZX was discontinued a few years before the 350Z was available.

Quite true. At least Apple still sells the Ti.

But where's the Mazda RX-8? Anyone seen one yet? If they don't show it this week I'm going to go buy a Suzuki Aerio.

snahabed

Jul 16, 2003, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by QCassidy352
to those of you who think others are whining:
first of all, most of you seem like Tibook owners who are getting defensive about your computers, which makes you a lot less credible.
second, the fact is, people don't like to pay full price for last year's model. Many years the new year's model of car is really no better than that of the previous year, but once it's "dated," it loses value. Now be honest - how many of you would go to a dealership today and pay full price for a 2003 car?
third, there ARE problems with the Tibooks! Jobs said so in so many words at MWSF. It's stunning that 8 months later, they are still trying to sell a product for full price that they admitted to be flawed!

look, I wouldn't pay full price for last years model, and I don't think many of you would either. So cut the crap. Even if the Tibooks are "good enough," nobody likes to feel like they are being cheated. And in the world of tech, full price for an 8 month old product is being ripped off.

And it is valid to feel that way. In which case, there are two newer models from which to choose. Simple.

If it is further insisted that 12 and 17 are evil numbers, and only a 15 will do, then just wait. If you HAVE to buy a computer NOW NOW NOW, are obsessed with the number 15, and have an alergic reaction to Titanium. in the name of all that is holy, buy a Dell. I just don't get the whining. You people have tons of Mac options; if none are satisfactory, buh bye!

Lord Bodak

Jul 16, 2003, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by cubist
Quite true. At least Apple still sells the Ti.

But where's the Mazda RX-8? Anyone seen one yet? If they don't show it this week I'm going to go buy a Suzuki Aerio.

Exactly-- until a new 15" PowerBook is announced, the current 15" is still the best there is. It's not "outdated." Sure, it could be better, but I guarantee that if 7457 or even G5 PowerBooks came out tomorrow people would still say they could be better.

In the tech industry, the next big thing is ALWAYS coming tomorrow. You can either enjoy what's available now or you can miss out. If I had a 300ZX, even if it had been the last one produced before the 350Z, I would still have driven the heck out of it and loved it up until the day I could get the 350 to replace it.

And I actually have seen one RX-8 on the road... only one.

Lyle

Jul 16, 2003, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by snahabed
OK Fair enough, the 17" is more expensive... but who knows how an updated 15" would be priced.True. I was working from the assumption that we were looking at a G4-based 15" PowerBook, with basically the appropriate updates to bring it in line with the current 12" and 17" models. Aluminum case, AirPort Extreme, etc. but obviously not the G5. So for that scenario I'd expect roughly the same price points as the existing 15" models.
I have used the 17", yes, and overall it is an extra pound and a couple inches wider. I find it hard to believe that is make or break. The 15" is pretty big too. If small size is a concern, the 12" is a great deal. And if you really need the size compromise, then the TiG4 is a great machine.Despite the price difference, I certainly haven't ruled out the 17" model. The 12" model is a little too small for my aging eyes, though. ;)
I just find it hard to fathom that someone would want to switch to Mac, and there are tons upon tons of configurations and options, and yet people will find tiny excuses and nitpick...I think if there weren't this heightened expectation of an impending PowerBook update the decision would be much easier. And yes, as you've already noted, this heightened expectation is entirely driven by speculation on the rumor mills and not because of anything that Apple's said. But I don't want to be one of the guys who buys the current TiBook model today only to see it updated a week or two from now, just outside of the ten day returns window.;)

tedjac

Jul 16, 2003, 12:08 PM

The 15" G4 Powerbook w/ 1Ghz processor started out at either $3199 or $2999, I can't remember which. It is now priced at $2599... so full price is relative to when you bought one. At the $2599 price, this computer is selling well. Trust me, I know... I sell them everyday. It is a fully-loaded (512Mb ram, 60Gb HD, Airport included, 64Mb graphics, Superdrive) machine and is still very usable and powerful. You can edit movies on it, do graphics on it... it's a great little computer... and it still boots OS9, for anyone that needs to. Most people out there don't know the rumors about the mythical AL 15". They try the TiBook and it works... they buy it. If and when an Al 15" comes out, it likely won't be much faster than the current 15"... so if you need to wait for a new case and maybe a backlit keyboard to get your work done, then do so. Otherwise, take advantage of the relative bargain that the current 15" Powerbook is and go buy one... before they're gone and you have to pay more for essentially the same machine.javascript:smilie(':rolleyes:')

Brother Mugga

Jul 16, 2003, 12:08 PM

r.e. Lyle and freundt's posts:

It's interesting to see some of the scorn being heaped upon the likes of Lyle and freundt when they make fairly reasonable statements about their frustration with Apple...as potential switchers.

Let's all just think about that for a second.

Apple is desperate for more switchers, yet very few people on this thread actually seem to be listening to two people voicing their reasons for holding back.

Interesting.

I too am going to switch [at Christmas to a dual 2.0 G5...after (a) I've seen them reviewed IN OPERATION and (b) we've therefore seen any 'teething' problems (coughs 'dust...dust' into his hand...). I've been waiting 18 months and, if you asked me for a wish list prior to the WWDC, I would have written down pretty much what was produced....so I'm more than a little excited....:D ]. In fact, although still using a PC personally, I've already moved 5 people onto Macs in the last 6 months. But, like so many of my potential switching friends, I'm pretty knacked off with this crappy 6 month (ish) upgrade cycle that Apple seems locked into, which makes finding the 'best' time to buy a computer such a nightmare. For example, I have two people lined up for iMacs right now, but have been holding off till this Macworld to see if they were either going to update the line or (in the name of all that is holy please PLEASE...) *drop the prices on those plonked out in almost 6 months ago*!

Since these iMacs came out (the 800MHz/1Gig models), I've been comparing them with a similarly specced Dell. This has dropped about 20-30% in price over the last 5 months.

If you don't see why this might be a problem, then I'm not sure you're really thinking straight.

If I stick with PCs, I know that I can just get a computer when I need one, because either the prices are continually falling or there are monthly (or even weekly) upgrades. With Apple it's like trying to crack a safe...one false move and you're left with egg on your face (that is to say, uneccesarily out of pocket, which doesn't do a lot for your opinion of the company).

(As a side note, I must say I'm amazed at the number of Mac users that actually *whine* when Apple pull of a good upgrade...because it makes their 'recently' purchased (i.e. 4 month old) model 'look crappy'. Jeeeeeeeeeez - don't ever buy a PC, is all I can say. Such is the rate of improvement and price reduction in the PC world (due to *competition*...hmmmm, now there's a topic) that I stop reading PC mags THE DAY after I buy a new computer, just so I don't get depressed.)

If Apple want's to attract more PC users then they should *definitely* think about moving over to a more attractive retailing model, in which they drop (albeit marginally) prices across the board every month and look to a 3-4 month (rather than 6-7 month) upgrade cylce. This isn't just because computing moves *way* too fast to be updating components (i.e. graphics cards) only every 6 months, but because then everyone would know the score, be able to make informed purchasing decisions, and would *have to stop whingeing* when Apple didn't pull the required rabbit out of the conference hat.

Sorry for the long post, but this is *really* important to switchers. I love the OS, I love the machines...I generally love the people. But I absolutely do not want to get ripped off by Apple's bizarre and secretive upgrade policy.

Okay, rant over.

Cheers

Brother Mugga

PS: And, while we're talking about powerbooks et al, it is not insignificant that the new centrino chip is spanking Apple's laptop line (certainly in terms of performance - pop over to www.barefeats.com for comments on this). Yes, it doesn't run OS X, etc. etc. etc. (blah blah blah). But Sony, Toshiba etc. are now producing cheaper, cooler, faster, DVD burning, and not entirely unattractive laptops (that, significantly for someone thinking of switching, don't require you to re-purchase all your software). I wouldn't buy one, but I've already lost two potential switchers who *couldn't* wait for a faster/cheaper laptop from Apple. Particularly something in a 15", as it were. Just something to think about.

homeshire

Jul 16, 2003, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by snahabed
I'd love the Dual G5 to be shipping TODAY. I'd love Panther to be shipping TODAY, but it's not, so I'll use the next best thing until then (G4 and Jag). The next best thing to THAT is G3 and Jag. The next best thing to THAT is G3 and OS9. The next best thing to THAT is Linux on anything.

And after that, I would become Amish and shun computing altogether.

amen. that's where i'm at. i live in an area heavily populated by the amish. i envy them in many ways.

TWinbrook46636

Jul 16, 2003, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by Lord Bodak
THANK YOU!!!!!
If you want a PowerBook, buy a PowerBook. If you want a Dell, buy a Dell. If you _really_ want a PowerBook, it doesn't matter if it's a Titanium or Aluminum or what-- you'll buy the PowerBook; there is nothing wrong with the current ones.

Uh, if I am going to shell out that kind of money for something that has to last me at least a few years... why the hell would I buy something as outdated as the Ti PowerBook? You people must be loaded with disposable income. Must be nice to drop 3G at the drop of a hat.

MattG

Jul 16, 2003, 12:13 PM

I want to take all of you whining babies and throw you off a cliff. Or a building. Or a really tall chair.

There will ALWAYS be newer models. What is wrong with the TiG4 15"?

It is slow, VERY fragile, old and obsolete.

Lord Bodak

Jul 16, 2003, 12:18 PM

Originally posted by TWinbrook46636
Uh, if I am going to shell out that kind of money for something that has to last me at least a few years... why the hell would I buy something as outdated as the Ti PowerBook? You people must be loaded with disposable income. Must be nice to drop 3G at the drop of a hat.

As I've said before, what is "outdated" about it? It is, very simply, the most powerful 15" Mac laptop in existence. It could be improved, but so could every Dell or IBM laptop currently manufactured.

And I certainly don't have 3G to drop. I am saving my pennies for a 12" PB, and when I have the money I will buy whichever one is out there.

illumin8

Jul 16, 2003, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by io_burn
We will be purchasing either 15 inch Powerbooks, or the new Sager 8890. Whichever comes first. ...And sadly, with not a peep from Apple, I think it might be the Sager.
Hey, I checked out the specs on the forthcoming Sager 8890... That is going to be one serious machine! If anyone is interested in the specs, here are the complete details: Sager 8890 (http://sagerforums.com/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=3893)

Highlights:

* PIV up to 3.2 w/ HyperThreading
* 800 Mhz. FSB supporting dual-bank
* PC3200 memory (up to 2GB)
* ATI Radeon 9600 Pro graphics w/ DVI out
* 16" SXGA screen
* SP/DIF 5.1 audio out, plus 6.1 analog out
* Supports 7200 RPM hard drives
* Supports IDE RAID with two internal drives!

This thing blows away most desktops and will be out at the end of July/first of August. Apple has some serious competition on the notebook front and better get their act together quick.

freundt

Jul 16, 2003, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by Lord Bodak
As I've said before, what is "outdated" about it? It is, very simply, the most powerful 15" Mac laptop in existence. It could be improved, but so could every Dell or IBM laptop currently manufactured.

And I certainly don't have 3G to drop. I am saving my pennies for a 12" PB, and when I have the money I will buy whichever one is out there.

By your argument, the Ford Model T is not an outdated car technology wise because it is the best Model T out there.

Sorry, I don't buy that argument.

Trimix

Jul 16, 2003, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by moosecat
Wonder why it was sparsely attended. Wouldn't a lot of people attend simply because there was the chance of a new product announcement?

Or did the attendees know something we didn't?

The truth is out there. So is an 867mHz 12" PowerBook that is rapidly looking like my next computer.

I ordered mine last week and received it today -
A wonderful piece of kit - I can only recommend it
What is there to lose ? I figured I can always wait for the next bigger screen, the next speed improvement - bah - then I will spend my life waiting -
no thanks, but I love my new PB

Lord Bodak

Jul 16, 2003, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by freundt
By your argument, the Ford Model T is not an outdated car technology wise because it is the best Model T out there.

Sorry, I don't buy that argument.

The Model T was a Ford two-door coupe. There are better Ford two-door coupes now.

There are also other Fords now. SUVs, sedans, minivans. Compare those to the 12" PB, the 17" PB, and even desktops.

There are also Chevys, Chryslers, etc. Compare those to the Dells and IBMs.

If you want the best Ford coupe, you're not going to buy a Model T, you're going to buy a Mustang or a Thunderbird (i.e., a 15" PowerBook).

If you want the best overall Ford, you might decide on a sedan instead (i.e., 17" PowerBook).

But just because Chevy doesn't have something Ford does, it doesn't mean all the Fords are outdated. And if a Taurus has a feature a Mustang doesn't, it doesn't make the Mustang outdated.

NNO-Stephen

Jul 16, 2003, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by Lord Bodak
As I've said before, what is "outdated" about it? It is, very simply, the most powerful 15" Mac laptop in existence. It could be improved, but so could every Dell or IBM laptop currently manufactured.

And I certainly don't have 3G to drop. I am saving my pennies for a 12" PB, and when I have the money I will buy whichever one is out there.

what's wrong with it? well, a cheaper notebook has better features, then yeah. something IS wrong.

Airport Extreme
non-painted exterior
DDR RAM
decent AirPort reception
better keyboard

and if you cannot see that, then I dont know what to tell you. there is a 500 dollar price difference between the two and that just is not right.

crees!

Jul 16, 2003, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by KrazyKidd
... im not about to buy something thats obviously outdated. And I cant get one in September...Looks like dell is gonna see my money ;[

i really wanted to switch too...

KrazyKidd

Get it out of your head... it's NOT OUTDATED. Plus I'm looking to switch too.. and I will... I'm just going to wait.

TWinbrook46636

Jul 16, 2003, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by Lord Bodak
First off, what's "outdated" about it? There is no faster portable G4 for you to buy instead; that makes it top of the line, not outdated.

I could care less about the processor speed at this point. All I want is 1Ghz as far as that's concerned.

Why should I spend $2599 on a 1Ghz Ti when the Al updates (at 1.0 and 1.3 Ghz) should sell at $2499 and $2999 worst-case scenario. That $2499 would not only save me $100 (big whup to you fat-cats I guess) and have the same 1Ghz speed (though a more efficient 7457) it would also get me Bluetooth, Airport Exteme, Firewire 800, faster BUS, faster RAM, etc. Oh, and a case that does not block wireless signals or have paint problems. Oh, and a corrected widescreen aspect display. Hopefully they will get USB 2.0 on board as well so I can connect my digital camera at full speed but I've been waiting too long to let that one thing stop me at this point.

So do you understand why some of us are waiting? Do you understand that it is odd to release new 12" and 17" models but leave the 15" model (which lacks all the above features) to rot for six months? I think we have a right to whine about it at this point. We should have had the replacement back in January.

I think Apple didn't want to revise it with the same 1Ghz processor simply because it would have been the same speed, damn the improved features and Steve's astrologist warned him of this. I swear the planets must be aligned for him to announce anything. Releasing two different PowerBook models (with the 17" having the very same processor) must get around this cosmic quandry somehow.

You know, if they had updated all three back in January I don't think anyone would really be expecting any updates at all at this point. Surely there would not be anything that exciting about a boost to 1.3 Ghz alone.

Lord Bodak

Jul 16, 2003, 12:39 PM

Originally posted by NNO-Stephen
what's wrong with it? well, a cheaper notebook has better features, then yeah. something IS wrong.

Airport Extreme
non-painted exterior
DDR RAM
decent AirPort reception
better keyboard

and if you cannot see that, then I dont know what to tell you. there is a 500 dollar price difference between the two and that just is not right.

It also has a larger screen, better processor, higher RAM ceiling, and more cache than the cheaper laptop with "better features" you mention. They are _different_ products. In some ways the 12" is better than the more expensive 15" and in some ways it's not.

TWinbrook46636

Jul 16, 2003, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by crees!
Get it out of your head... it's NOT OUTDATED. Plus I'm looking to switch too.. and I will... I'm just going to wait.

We all expect the new Al15 to be like the Al17 with a smaller screen.

Let's see...

No Airport Extreme
No Bluetooth
No Firewire 800
No Backlit Keyboard

Slower BUS Speed
Slower RAM Speed
Problematic Wireless Reception
Problematic Paint

... exactly why is it not outdated again?

Lord Bodak

Jul 16, 2003, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by TWinbrook46636
Why should I spend $2599 on a 1Ghz Ti when the Al updates (at 1.0 and 1.3 Ghz) should sell at $2499 and $2999 worst-case scenario. That $2499 would not only save me $100 (big whup to you fat-cats I guess) and have the same 1Ghz speed (though a more efficient 7457) it would also get me Bluetooth, Airport Exteme, Firewire 800, faster BUS, faster RAM, etc. Oh, and a case that does not block wireless signals or have paint problems. Oh, and a corrected widescreen aspect display. Hopefully they will get USB 2.0 on board as well so I can connect my digital camera at full speed but I've been waiting too long to let that one thing stop me at this point.

So do you understand why some of us are waiting? Do you understand that it is odd to release new 12" and 17" models but leave the 15" model (which lacks all the above features) to rot for six months? I think we have a right to whine about it at this point. We should have had the replacement back in January.

Why buy an updated G4 15" now when the G5 might be around in a year? No, we don't know when the G5 will go in the PowerBook; we also don't know when (or if!) the Ti will get replaced with an Al G4.

The next big thing will always be right around the corner.

TomA

Jul 16, 2003, 12:44 PM

Apple ripping people off with the Ti's at this point.

Check out the LOADED 2.6G P4 Medion 15" laptops at Aldi. $1500 WITH a superdrive!

betoranaldi

Jul 16, 2003, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by TWinbrook46636
We all expect the new Al15 to be like the Al17 with a smaller screen.

Let's see...

No Airport Extreme
No Bluetooth
No Firewire 800
No Backlit Keyboard

Slower BUS Speed
Slower RAM Speed
Problematic Wireless Reception
Problematic Paint

... exactly why is it not outdated again?

The Key is WE ARE EXPECTING that does not mean that it will be a smaller version of the 17". there for everything is speculation until apple annouces it so currently the 15" Powerbook is not Outdated

Ikash

Jul 16, 2003, 12:50 PM

i was wanting a 15" al pb before september but i guess i thought i would never say this but apples diapointed me. whats teh hold up with them ther not going to have fuel cells, and the g5 processor is prob a ways away so not sure whats taking them so long, it didn't need like major updates so i wonder whats taking them so long

TWinbrook46636

Jul 16, 2003, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by Lord Bodak
Why buy an updated G4 15" now when the G5 might be around in a year? No, we don't know when the G5 will go in the PowerBook; we also don't know when (or if!) the Ti will get replaced with an Al G4.

The next big thing will always be right around the corner.

Give me a break! I don't give a flying fig if they release a PowerBook G5 in January.

If you had bothered to read my post...

All I want is a 1 Ghz G4 with the features of the Al17 in a Al15 package. That is all I am waiting for. That is all I have been waiting for. I am not waiting for the next big thing. I am waiting for what we should have had months ago.

Websnapx2

Jul 16, 2003, 12:52 PM

I currently own a PowerMac G4 400, infact the very first one to enter the city I live in. I know I am due for an update, and I want that update to be a new 15" Powerbook. I do alot of Graphic/Web/Flash/Motion Design both at home and by proffesion.

If I was shopping for a work computer, as in I'm not flipping the bill, I would go with the best available because though my input is valued, it is certainly not a pre-requisite. But since I am shopping for a machine to work at home with I know I can afford to wait. My tower runs fine and though it will have it's 4th birthday in October, i can run anything available including Panther ;) and i find it anything but obosolete. In fact the reason I am looking to upgrade is more for the portability and a factory Apple burner (i currently installed a fast 32X noname burner that kicks ass and works great with toast but isn't compatable for iTunes and OSX's built in burning function), a larger hard drive (currently only 20 Gigs that i bought after market) and more ram.

Basicaly, what I'm saying is if you have a machine that is working for you right now you can afford to wait (like me), if you don't, all avillable machines at the Apple store will be better than what you have now. And If you are truely pondering a dell, I feel sorry for you, and the trouble you will have in the future untill the eventual day you _will_switch back.

And you know you will....

TWinbrook46636

Jul 16, 2003, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by Ikash
i was wanting a 15" al pb before september but i guess i thought i would never say this but apples diapointed me. whats teh hold up with them ther not going to have fuel cells, and the g5 processor is prob a ways away so not sure whats taking them so long, it didn't need like major updates so i wonder whats taking them so long

So something cannot be better until it is officially announced then? Oh, I see. :rolleyes:

jstef

Jul 16, 2003, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by Brother Mugga
r.e. Lyle and freundt's posts:

It's interesting to see some of the scorn being heaped upon the likes of Lyle and freundt when they make fairly reasonable statements about their frustration with Apple...as potential switchers.

Let's all just think about that for a second.

Apple is desperate for more switchers, yet very few people on this thread actually seem to be listening to two people voicing their reasons for holding back.

Interesting.

I too am going to switch [at Christmas to a dual 2.0 G5...after (a) I've seen them reviewed IN OPERATION and (b) we've therefore seen any 'teething' problems (coughs 'dust...dust' into his hand...). I've been waiting 18 months and, if you asked me for a wish list prior to the WWDC, I would have written down pretty much what was produced....so I'm more than a little excited....:D ]. In fact, although still using a PC personally, I've already moved 5 people onto Macs in the last 6 months. But, like so many of my potential switching friends, I'm pretty knacked off with this crappy 6 month (ish) upgrade cycle that Apple seems locked into, which makes finding the 'best' time to buy a computer such a nightmare. For example, I have two people lined up for iMacs right now, but have been holding off till this Macworld to see if they were either going to update the line or (in the name of all that is holy please PLEASE...) *drop the prices on those plonked out in almost 6 months ago*!

Since these iMacs came out (the 800MHz/1Gig models), I've been comparing them with a similarly specced Dell. This has dropped about 20-30% in price over the last 5 months.

If you don't see why this might be a problem, then I'm not sure you're really thinking straight.

If I stick with PCs, I know that I can just get a computer when I need one, because either the prices are continually falling or there are monthly (or even weekly) upgrades. With Apple it's like trying to crack a safe...one false move and you're left with egg on your face (that is to say, uneccesarily out of pocket, which doesn't do a lot for your opinion of the company).

(As a side note, I must say I'm amazed at the number of Mac users that actually *whine* when Apple pull of a good upgrade...because it makes their 'recently' purchased (i.e. 4 month old) model 'look crappy'. Jeeeeeeeeeez - don't ever buy a PC, is all I can say. Such is the rate of improvement and price reduction in the PC world (due to *competition*...hmmmm, now there's a topic) that I stop reading PC mags THE DAY after I buy a new computer, just so I don't get depressed.)

If Apple want's to attract more PC users then they should *definitely* think about moving over to a more attractive retailing model, in which they drop (albeit marginally) prices across the board every month and look to a 3-4 month (rather than 6-7 month) upgrade cylce. This isn't just because computing moves *way* too fast to be updating components (i.e. graphics cards) only every 6 months, but because then everyone would know the score, be able to make informed purchasing decisions, and would *have to stop whingeing* when Apple didn't pull the required rabbit out of the conference hat.

Sorry for the long post, but this is *really* important to switchers. I love the OS, I love the machines...I generally love the people. But I absolutely do not want to get ripped off by Apple's bizarre and secretive upgrade policy.

Okay, rant over.

Cheers

Brother Mugga

PS: And, while we're talking about powerbooks et al, it is not insignificant that the new centrino chip is spanking Apple's laptop line (certainly in terms of performance - pop over to www.barefeats.com for comments on this). Yes, it doesn't run OS X, etc. etc. etc. (blah blah blah). But Sony, Toshiba etc. are now producing cheaper, cooler, faster, DVD burning, and not entirely unattractive laptops (that, significantly for someone thinking of switching, don't require you to re-purchase all your software). I wouldn't buy one, but I've already lost two potential switchers who *couldn't* wait for a faster/cheaper laptop from Apple. Particularly something in a 15", as it were. Just something to think about.

Wow. Can you say it any better? That's exactly what I was trying to get at in my last post.

A lot of people are complaining about Apple's upgrade cycle-- the fact that a lot of these people are potential switchers makes it even worse. Apple is losing customers because if you decide to cross over and buy a PC, you can get one that was released just last week. You don't need to worry about buying a year-old Apple with a new one coming out just around the bend.

I'm bitching and I'll admit it. I'm just a little angry at the way that I'm being dicked around, by both the rumor sites and by Apple. Since Apple doesn't like to release products 'out of the blue', I've come to expect them to be released at trade shows and the like.

I could buy a PC today that would blow away that TiBook. It wouldn't have OSX and it wouldn't be as sexy, but it would run Photoshop just as fast (actually, a lot faster), it would get the same battery life (thanks, Centrino), and it would do everything I need. However, I'm committed to switch to Apple, and I will. If I have to wait, then I have to wait.

But while I am waiting, I'll bitch and moan all I want. If you like your TiBook, that's all well and good. I just don't want to pay the same amount you did and be 8 months behind on the upgrade cycle.

Lord Bodak

Jul 16, 2003, 12:55 PM

Originally posted by TWinbrook46636
Give me a break! I don't give a flying fig if they release a PowerBook G5 in January.

If you had bothered to read my post...

All I want is a 1 Ghz G4 with the features of the Al17 in a Al15 package. That is all I am waiting for. That is all I have been waiting for. I am not waiting for the next big thing. I am waiting for what we should have had months ago.

You are waiting for something that has not been announced and may never be released, and then blaming Apple for making you wait for it!

betoranaldi

Jul 16, 2003, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by Lord Bodak
You are waiting for something that has not been announced and may never be released, and then blaming Apple for making you wait for it!

Thats what i was trying to get at with my last post

synthetickittie

Jul 16, 2003, 01:01 PM

if you seriously believe the 15 powerbook is NOT outdated right now your in a your own world where everything apple says/makes in the word of god. Granted I LOVE basically everything apple makes but Im no blind to things. The 15 isnt outdated in that it can still run programs BUT if it were an ibook then that would be acceptable, but its SUPPOST to be a professional line! Come on look at what you can get for hardware in the PC world for notebooks at this price, its WAY over what the 15 offers right now, this thing doesnt even have DDR ram. Come on how can you not say a PROFESSIONAL piece of hardware is not outdated when it doesnt even have the ability to use the thing the SAME company has made: airport extreme, Bluetooth (built-in), and fire wire 800. Im going to start college in September and want a powerbook to use and this thing may be able to work everything (major: computer science) for the next year but Im not no rich kid who can buy a new powerbook every year.

Fender2112

Jul 16, 2003, 01:01 PM

From a marketing perspective, I don't quite understand Apple. There seems to be a big demand for "Back to School" products and they should be taking notice of this. Folks want to make these purchases BEFORE they go back to school, not after.

Unless Apple does one of those "queit" updates in the next week or two, they will lose quite a few swithers.

Perhaps Apple wanted to prove a point to the folks at IDG and the updates will come soon enough.

Personally I'm waiting for iMac updates

Rustus Maximus

Jul 16, 2003, 01:02 PM

Originally posted by Lord Bodak
You are waiting for something that has not been announced and may never be released, and then blaming Apple for making you wait for it!

Acckkk!!....the blinding light of truth...

(the trolls recoil in horror...only to be replaced by new, more freshly registered ones...)

:rolleyes:

Brother Mugga

Jul 16, 2003, 01:03 PM

Look, I'm wary of sticking my oar into this, but...

Sorry, but Apple is in danger of getting spanked with its laptops...despite this apparently being their 'year.'

The new Centrino has bought high power, low heat (wi-fi integrated) solutions to the PC world, and companies like Sony, Toshiba etc (and myriad highly competitive others) are now (as I said in my previous post) cranking out cheap, fast, cool, and well designed (aesthetically also) machines.

I get the feeling that some of the Mac posters on this thread are only comparing the Mac laptops to each other. That's not really very sensible. You should be comparing them also to what else is out there. That's the genuine competition (something that many living in Apple's comfortable little 'hardware/software' monopoly microverse would do well to take a gander at from time to time).

If you last used a Wintel laptop in November, when the Ti 15" was last updated, then you really need to have another look: things really ain't not the same no more.

I feel it is perhaps to this discrepancy that some posters are pointing when they suggest that the 15" Ti is in danger of becoming 'outdated.'

The new G5s will secure (and, indeed, win) marketshare because they appear highly competitive. Apple needs to roll-out this kind of pricing/features ratio across its entire range a.s.a.p.

Believe me, I'd be able to get them about another 10 switchers in about five minutes...

Brother Mugga

PS: Cheers, Jstef :)

TomA

Jul 16, 2003, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by Lord Bodak
You are waiting for something that has not been announced and may never be released, and then blaming Apple for making you wait for it!

Oh Horsesh*t. We are blaming Apple for not producing a decent 15" laptop. Who wants to pay top dollar for NEARLY YEAR OLD technology?

I don't think many people care if it looks like the 17" or not. But they don't want the paint peeling piece of crap Ti's with last year's (literally) technology.

On another topic: You people that are thinking of switching to Dell should really look at the Medion laptops at Aldi. (German engineering means they might not have the same defect issues as the Dells...)

job

Jul 16, 2003, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by Brother Mugga
The new G5s will secure (and, indeed, win) marketshare because they appear highly competitive. Apple needs to roll-out this kind of pricing/features ratio across its entire range a.s.a.p.

I don't think Apple will release G5 Powerbooks before 2004.

And I'll eat my shoe if they do. ;)

TomA

Jul 16, 2003, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by Rustus Maximus
Acckkk!!....the blinding light of truth...

(the trolls recoil in horror...only to be replaced by new, more freshly registered ones...)

:rolleyes:

To me, stupid, blind apple loyalty like this is much more troll-like than people who are pointing out a real defect in Apple's product line.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Hodapp

Jul 16, 2003, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by illumin8
Hey, I checked out the specs on the forthcoming Sager 8890... That is going to be one serious machine! If anyone is interested in the specs, here are the complete details: Sager 8890 (http://sagerforums.com/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=3893)

Highlights:

* PIV up to 3.2 w/ HyperThreading
* 800 Mhz. FSB supporting dual-bank
* PC3200 memory (up to 2GB)
* ATI Radeon 9600 Pro graphics w/ DVI out
* 16" SXGA screen
* SP/DIF 5.1 audio out, plus 6.1 analog out
* Supports 7200 RPM hard drives
* Supports IDE RAID with two internal drives!

This thing blows away most desktops and will be out at the end of July/first of August. Apple has some serious competition on the notebook front and better get their act together quick.

The only catch is that the laptop is bigger than the XBOX it's so huge! (Well, not THAT big, but it's hefty.) I suppose such sacrifices need to be made to have a laptop that out-performs most desktops :)

job

Jul 16, 2003, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by TomA
Oh Horsesh*t. We are blaming Apple for not producing a decent 15" laptop. Who wants to pay top dollar for NEARLY YEAR OLD technology?

Go do a search for how old DDR SDRAM is.

I don't think many people care if it looks like the 17" or not. But they don't want the paint peeling piece of crap Ti's with last year's (literally) technology.

Check the benchmark numbers. You'll see that in terms of performance the supposed 'DDR' SDRAM and slightly faster FSB does little in terms of realworld performance. Do those extra 2.9 frames per second in Quake3 really matter all that much?

http://www.macworld.com/2003/06/reviews/17inchpowerbook/

(German engineering means they might not have the same defect issues as the Dells...)

Nice stereotype.

[edit: Forgot the benchmark link]

Lord Bodak

Jul 16, 2003, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by synthetickittie
if you seriously believe the 15 powerbook is NOT outdated right now your in a your own world where everything apple says/makes in the word of god. Granted I LOVE basically everything apple makes but Im no blind to things. The 15 isnt outdated in that it can still run programs BUT if it were an ibook then that would be acceptable, but its SUPPOST to be a professional line! Come on look at what you can get for hardware in the PC world for notebooks at this price, its WAY over what the 15 offers right now, this thing doesnt even have DDR ram. Come on how can you not say a PROFESSIONAL piece of hardware is not outdated when it doesnt even have the ability to use the thing the SAME company has made: airport extreme, Bluetooth (built-in), and fire wire 800. Im going to start college in September and want a powerbook to use and this thing may be able to work everything (major: computer science) for the next year but Im not no rich kid who can buy a new powerbook every year.

When it comes to Apple hardware, what Apple says IS the word of God. What the PC manufacturers have is completely irrelevant in a discussion of what the current 15" PowerBook can do.

kenaustus

Jul 16, 2003, 01:19 PM

I don't think Apple is sitting on their @ss with the new PB's. They worked with IBM for over 2 years to bring us the G5 and I have a feeling that they have been working damn hard in the laptop area, especially on the 15" line. I also believe that they will announce them as soon as the can be delivered - they aren't dumb when it comes to the student market.

The reality is that wintel box makers don't have the need for the intense engineering, design and development that Apple has. They go to MS for the os and pick up bits & pieces from a wide range of suppliers. They also don't worry about innovation.

Thinking about getting a Dell dude? Check the reliability reports in PC Mag. Dell got a "B" in all areas and IBM (and Apple) got an "A". Would recommend getting the cheapest one available (used?) as you are really going to move back to the Mac as soon as possible.

If you're heading to college and need something now to buy with your $3,000 think about a 12" (either PB or iB) and a 20" monitor. Easier to lug a 12" around campus and the 20" will really be sweet for working in your dorm room. The neat part of this is that, in 12 months when the 3 Gig PMs are out the dual 2Gigs are going to be priced at a very attractive level. A 12" for class and a G5 in the dorm wouldn't be a bad way to go.

For business, go and look at the 15" and 17" side by side. The 17" is not that huge when compared next to a 15" I'm 59 years old and have no doubts that I can carry one through the airports if I could buy one today!

By the way, on the second business trip I made with my new PB airport security dropped it off the x-ray belt. Bounced hard on the floor a few times, denting the bottom. Had to reseat the keyboard connector and went on with my trip without any problems. I could care less about a scratch on the paint job - the Ti is one tough SOB.

Lord Bodak

Jul 16, 2003, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by TomA
Oh Horsesh*t. We are blaming Apple for not producing a decent 15" laptop. Who wants to pay top dollar for NEARLY YEAR OLD technology?

I don't think many people care if it looks like the 17" or not. But they don't want the paint peeling piece of crap Ti's with last year's (literally) technology.

On another topic: You people that are thinking of switching to Dell should really look at the Medion laptops at Aldi. (German engineering means they might not have the same defect issues as the Dells...)

The TiBook is a decent 15" laptop. It's not their best laptop and they don't claim that it is!

Lord Bodak

Jul 16, 2003, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by TomA
To me, stupid, blind apple loyalty like this is much more troll-like than people who are pointing out a real defect in Apple's product line.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

This isn't blind Apple loyalty. I have said multiple times that the current 15" laptop could be improved. So could the 12", and the 17", and the PowerMac, and every Dell and IBM product out there.

TomA

Jul 16, 2003, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by io_burn
Hey, I checked out the specs on the forthcoming Sager 8890... That is going to be one serious machine! If anyone is interested in the specs, here are the complete details.

WOW! Do you have pricing on that beast? It looks perfect. And I have to get something for myself before August 15 and I will NOT buy another Ti. It's junk--almost as bad as my 5300 (and looks worse with the paint problems).

FYI: This will be the first time since 1984 that I have not owned a Mac. It's true. I had a Mac 128k that I (unofficially) upgraded to a fat Mac. Then I had a Mac+ (with 20MB external HD!), an SE/30 (with a color card and external monitor!), a Quadra, a 9600, a 5300 Powerbook, a Powerbook G3, and a Powerbook G4. Oh well. It's been a good 20 year run, and I converted a LOT of people, but I've finally gotten sick of Apple's BS.

jaedreth

Jul 16, 2003, 01:25 PM

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. Until about the third or fourth time. Then everyone starts expecting it. And then when it doesn't come, people start to get annoyed and call the Cardinal names and such...

Sure, Apple's corporate line is, "Apple does not comment on unannounced or unreleased products." Thus a 15" AlBook Does Not Exist (DNE for you math geeks).

However, it *has* been since November. If Apple wanted to, they could have slapped some Aluminum on the current model, and shoved in APEx, and BlueTooth.

Consider these two possibilities:

1) A 15" AlBook with all the nicities might have gotten Too Hot.
If Apple couldn't keep it like an inch thin, they wouldn't have gone for a bulkier model. Do you know what happens when Aluminum and Iron are heated together to sufficient temperatures? Let's see how many know this one. Could have made the 5300's look like kids toys. There is less in the PowerBook G4 12", and the heat can be kept down without sacrificing size. The 17" is so much larger due to it's display, they have *room* for better heating.

This is all intelligent guesswork of one possibility. Especially if *anything* in the Albook design contained exposed iron or magnesium compounds.

2) If safety were *not* a consideration in making a 15" AlBook, it could be because they were way behind schedule on completing the 15" albook, and wanted to ship these two, and were too close to finallizing the next revision of all, so they figured it would be best to wait.

Now, it *has* been since November '02, so it could be that *both* are true. They gave up on the project in faver of a new project.

Or, they might be discontinuing the 15" model. I doubt it. They would have stopped making them long ago if that were the case.

I think Apple may be innovating so far on the bleeding edge, that they are running into unexpected engineering issues with hardware design.

Again, this is all educated guesswork. I still think that a complete revamp of the powerbook line won't even be announced until January, but that all three models will be redesigned.

In short, Apple is up to something big.

Give it time. I know, it's hard. Apple expected the 17" to sell better, I'm sure. If they did discontinue the 15", and drop the 17" to 15" prices, people would still avoid it for the size and weight. I don't think Apple anticipated that. (Though I would buy it... If I had the money...)

Jaedreth

TomA

Jul 16, 2003, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by Lord Bodak
The TiBook is a decent 15" laptop. It's not their best laptop and they don't claim that it is!

It's not even a _good_ laptop. I have one. Don't get me started.

Lord Bodak

Jul 16, 2003, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by TomA
It's not even a _good_ laptop. I have one. Don't get me started.

There are multiple posts in this thread and others from people perfectly happy with the TiBook.

Hodapp

Jul 16, 2003, 01:33 PM

To the people saying the 17 inch isn't that big... Does it even fit in normal laptop bags? Whenever I've used one it seems like more of a lunch tray than a laptop to me. Don't get me wrong, the screen is beautiful... it's just too big for my tastes.

snahabed

Jul 16, 2003, 01:40 PM

One more time. If you want the most updated powerbooks, get a 12 or 17. If you want a 15, get a Titanium. If neither of these solutions works for you, wait. If you are too impatient, buh bye!

Why keep posting on a MacRumors thread if youve decided, foolishly but willfully, to get a PC laptop?

Go for it, I hope youre happy. At least have the sense to run Linux. If not.... I pray for you and your childrens' children, for ye will be cursed by the ghost of Windows Future. And a bleak one it is.

Hodapp

Jul 16, 2003, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by snahabed
Canned Apple-User Windows Sucks Post #20385

lol windows more like winblows am i rite

Brother Mugga

Jul 16, 2003, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by job
I don't think Apple will release G5 Powerbooks before 2004.

And I'll eat my shoe if they do. ;)

And I'll eat your other one (er...unless you're a unidexter...in which case sorry for my lack of 'diversity'...er, and unless your feet ming, obviously...).

Yeah, it would be great if they managed to pop out a 90nm die-shrink and then stick it in powerbook by the end of the year, but...well, let's face it, we're more likely to see Jobs in tweed...

As I said, though, that the G5 (desktops) are so competitive on pricing (:D so, in fact) certainly bodes well for the future. Here's hoping?

Brother Mugga

PS: [edited - it just seemed inflammatory (rather than jocular) when posted...]

astray

Jul 16, 2003, 01:44 PM

One more time. If you want the most updated powerbooks, get a 12 or 17. If you want a 15, get a Titanium. If neither of these solutions works for you, wait. If you are too impatient, buh bye!

I think you will find, that most of the people posting here, are posting to vent their frustration, to spin off the old adage,

"A frustration shared, is a frustration halved"

Just because you tell people to stop posting their rants, doesnt mean that they will, and by repeatedly posting a message to tell people to stop whining is pointless in itself. Let the people vent, they are just a little frustrated, once it's out of their system, im sure they'll return to the fold.

beloit08

Jul 16, 2003, 01:55 PM

I've got a feeling that many of these people saying they're switching to dell are just bear baiting. Why go with Dell when there are other, better PC laptops out there?

Also, if you're going with a $999 Dell (as someone said), then the 15" PowerBook's not what you're after. Go with an iBook. I've had mine for just under a year and I don't see it going away any time soon. I haven't even maxed out the RAM. The computer's just a trooper. Very much UNLIKE my dad's compaq, which fitzes and futzes all the time, in addition to having weird software pointers and etc. pre-installed on it.

If you're going to get something for word processing, email, and playing and ripping (and burning) MP3s, then you don't really need a PowerBook at all. The iBook will handle all that plus most photoshop tasks. Anything as long as you're not asking it to render video.

But if you're considering a Dell, you're not going to be rendering video anyway, are you?jk

Yes, a 15" PowerBook would be nice. But is it ncessary? No, it's not.

Rustus Maximus

Jul 16, 2003, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by io_burn
To the people saying the 17 inch isn't that big... Does it even fit in normal laptop bags?

Well, Apple will sell you a backpack or shoulder bag specifically fitted for your shiny, new 17" when you buy one. Sure their version is pricey, but I would assume that if they sell it so does someone else.

And getting back to the "the PowerBook line" sucks debate...go ahead by your beastly Sasquatch 8890 if you want...the 8890 is either it's weight or it's thickness I'd bet...so buy a back brace too.

This battle is more than hardware...it's about the OS...the entire user experience. Don't even say that you would prefer to use Winblows over OSX, and if you do you are in the minority (or delusional). At any rate, loyalty to a platform which has consistently proven it's superiority over it's competitors is warranted, not blind. Again we are talking about the entire experience here, not just raw processor speed. You guys wimpering about the lack of speed are like teenage boys comparing who's got the most horsepower in their 78 whatever. Fine, you can do 150 down a straightaway but what happens when you run into a curvy road? I can tell you what happens to Winblows...it explodes.

As for the 17" being too unwieldy, yeah it's big but it is still portable and I'm sure it will be more comfortable in the long run than the Sumo 8890, not to mention it has a rock solid OS and more than enough horsepower to run the major apps out there.

Apple hasn't promised anyone anything about a 15" G4, G5 or G-anything being available tomorrow. If the present 15" doesn't fit your needs then get a 17".

(walks off muttering to himself...as usual)
I'd like to have a Ferrari, but they don't make a MiniVan version of their F1 supercar...well...that's it...DODGE is getting my money NOW...up yours Ferrari!...

:rolleyes:

TomA

Jul 16, 2003, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by snahabed
One more time. If you want the most updated powerbooks, get a 12 or 17. If you want a 15, get a Titanium. If neither of these solutions works for you, wait. If you are too impatient, buh bye!

You act like you know everything that could possibly affect a person's purchase decision. JUST ONE example: A good friend of mine is a professor. He just took a new job and has to choose a computer before school starts. (He doesn't have a computer at ALL at his new job yet.) 12" is just too small for one's sole computer. 17" is beyond his university budget. The 15" is outdated, no matter what the Mac Nazi's say and it has severe paint problems. He can't just "wait", because he doesn't have ANY computer right now. Apple has no good option for him.

[mod. edit - Name calling will not be tolerated.]

macnews

Jul 16, 2003, 01:58 PM

I am also disappointed no 15" or any new hardware was announced.

1. Look to next week for a possible update. If Apple is pissed at IDG and/or just wants to get away from product announcements at exposes like this (which they have stated) then next week would be a good time to make an announcement. People will still be looking for one and you still hit back to school crowd (allowing time for shipping and back order delays).

2. Some have slammed those saying what do you expect in an update. Look back and the "update" in Nov '02 wasn't that much either - a speed bump wahooo! (right). I and I think the others who have complained don't want the latest and greatest - we want what is now at least 6 months old - i.e. stuff that is found in the 12 and 17 models. Is that much to ask? I don't think many would care about a speed update and none of the posts I read even cited that as a desired feature. All want better wifi, ddr, graphics, bus speed, keyboards, paint issue, etc., etc. - no "I need a 1.2Ghz 15" Al powerbook or else! This isn't alot to ask! If for some reason they can't do that (heat issues, supplies) then DROP THE PRICE MORE! It might hurt the 12" sales but that is the penalty for production delays. You could also get around this by giving "special" discounts for students going back to school - "Get $300 off when you purchase through the online store or present your valid education id at an authorized apple dealer." There are ways to work around this and I blame Apple marketing - which may have their hands tied by Steve - but I would think he is smarter than that.

TomA

Jul 16, 2003, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by beloit08
Anything as long as you're not asking it to render video.

For people doing presentations, the ibook does not allow one to have different things on different screens.

cooper13

Jul 16, 2003, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by moosecat
Nothing prevents them from doing this, except their desire to maximize their profits by selling as many computers as possible. In a market full of highly sophisticated, media-savvy consumers, companies have to cater to the expectations of their customers. If Apple knows -- and has known for months -- that people will be expecting something at MWNY, and if Apple knows that some of those people will go Dell if nothing comes, then it's just plain stupid to wait for no good reason for a "random summer Tuesday."

I believe there must, in fact, be a good reason for the fact that no hardware product was announced today. And that reason is not just that Apple is PO'ed at IDG, or flexing its corporate right to make arbitrary decisions.

This is exactly the reason Apple is moving away from announcing products at shows! When 'everybody' knows to wait for Macworld Expo, Apple doesn't sell machines. So the alternative is to not release them then but when they are ready. Which will work great, except during the transition when people expect the Expo announcement and don't get it. That is where we are at now. If I had to guess, I'd say wait a month or so and on some Tuesday, there'll be a new Pbook.

For everyone who complains that Apple doesn't get the big news coverage--well, you don't see Dell announcing machines only at IDG events!

And for everyone who convinced their boss/friend/school buddy to wait for a few months because they 'knew' that the new 15" was coming at the Expo, you've now learned your lesson. Don't wait on purchases based on rumors! Especially bad/nonexistent rumors!! I mean, we haven't read any major, reliable rumors here about imminent releases of the 15". If you'd bought a few months ago, the machine would have been only 5-6 months old, and you'd get a long life out of it. If you only buy now, you get just as long a life less two months!!

I mean, if you need it absolutely now, then the TiBook is fine, because it is here absolutely now. Even if they'd released an AlBook today, you'd still have to wait a month for it. If you can wait one month, you can wait two or three and hold out for the next update. If you can't wait that long, you shouldn't have waited to begin with!

And if you have to get a Dell because it was uupdated last month and Apple won't be for another month and you really see the two machines as equal, then go for it by all means!

Sorry for the length of this rant, but I couldn't take it any more. You are either flexible with your spending schedule, in which case a few months doesn't matter too much, or you aren't, in which case you get the best machine out their when you have to buy and you don't bitch and moan about it!

TomA

Jul 16, 2003, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by Rustus Maximus

I'd like to have a Ferrari, but they don't make a MiniVan version of their F1 supercar...well...that's it...DODGE is getting my money NOW...up yours Ferrari!...

Unfortunately, your example does not fit the state of the laptop market as it exists today. It's more like:

I'd like to have a minivan, but they don't make a fast version of the minivan, so to hell with it, I'm getting the Ferarri.

i.e. ALMOST ANY laptop out there is going to be faster and more modern than Apple's Ti book, you just might not be able to get all of your current stuff into it....

Ikash

Jul 16, 2003, 02:08 PM

im hoping it comes out asap as well but why would they release it on a non special tuesday like next week. it would be great but why are they pissed at IDG and i hope there not waiting for the g5's to ship cuz that would be a long ways away and apple is just hurting themselves by holding off. they did amazing delevery on the ipods so i bet they can do it again, reading post for a day can seem like a weeks and weeks of waiting can seem like months.

TomA

Jul 16, 2003, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by cooper13
I mean, if you need it absolutely now, then the TiBook is fine, because it is here absolutely now.

No it is NOT fine, as many people have noted.

Originally posted by cooper13
Even if they'd released an AlBook today, you'd still have to wait a month for it. If you can wait one month, you can wait two or three and hold out for the next update. If you can't wait that long, you shouldn't have waited to begin with!

Some people CANNOT wait for reasons beyond their control. See my earlier post.

tex210

Jul 16, 2003, 02:15 PM

I don't get people saying the 12" is too small. If I had the money, my old imac dv se 400 would be a new G5 and the 12" would be my portable. If you say it's too hard on the eyes.... well change resolution, or keep the highest resolution and make the default text larger, or.... just use zoom if you REALLY have bad eye sight.... Why not zoom on the road and have a seperate display for home? The prices are great right now? If it's the xtra 124 mhz.... well, ask God for a little patience, say the serenity prayer, and see what happens.
ps. Dell? not even the same market. Seriously. If you had said vaio, maybe, but dell? Get an ibook.

TomA

Jul 16, 2003, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by jaedreth
Do you know what happens when Aluminum and Iron are heated together to sufficient temperatures? Let's see how many know this one.

Oh PLEASE! To what absurd lengths will the Apple apologists go here? I have a feeling that the plastic and internal circuitry would melt and shut things down FAR before the aluminum and/or iron parts were even stressed. The 5300 had defective battery meltdown problems--it had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the machine's processor overheating things.

Originally posted by jaedreth
This is all intelligent guesswork

It's hardly that.

vrapan

Jul 16, 2003, 02:21 PM

Sorry but i tihnk he has a point. Especially for people that are considering PCs. I said it before and i will say it again if all you care about Apple is an Al15" notebook and oh well you didn't get it when you wanted it then go get a PC. Someone buying an Apple as I did some 5 months ago buy it for the looks but they also buy it for the stability, the advanced features of the OS and generally they consider it a better computing experience rather than a merely better looking PC that happens to run Mac OS X and not XP. I will say it again and again till people that are considering PCs go buy them and the let Apple release their hardware when they can. I would run OS on a TiG4 anytime instead of XP on the sleekest brand new laptop. And I believe this should be the point of the switchers not the Al paint on the 15". You don't switch in order to turn heads in starbucks you switch so you won't have to waste your time at starbucks fiddling with an immature ill thought half hearted effort on something that only it's creator calls Stable Trustworthy OS.

TomA

Jul 16, 2003, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by tex210
I don't get people saying the 12" is too small. If I had the money....

Well DUH! Maybe the people complaining don't have the money for two computers either. Ever think of that?

Rustus Maximus

Jul 16, 2003, 02:26 PM

I'm curious...all these folks talking about these magificent Dell 15" laptops you're all going to rush out and get...can I see some specs? model numbers of the specific laptop you are comparing the 15" Ti to?

Thanks,

Rustus

jaedreth

Jul 16, 2003, 02:27 PM

Thank you, MacNews...

The last TiBook update *was* pathetic.

The (DVI) model was released on 04/02, the (1GHz/867MHz) model on 11/02.

The differences:

1) CPU: 687/800 upgraded to 876/1GHz. Not bad.

2) No longer have to lift up the keyboard to reset PMU. It's a key command now.

3) Can't think of anything else.

So besides some *minor* upgrades, it seems this update was introduced so that we wouldn't have a PowerBook G4 (DVI) still... It was almost a "we need an update" update "so let's update something".

The *technology* behind the machine hasn't changed drastically in any sense since the DVI, they just gave it a speed bump, not much else, and gave it a new name.

Now if the last update had been *substantial*, there would be less to complain about.

Now with this info, anyone who says that Apple hasn't left it's 15" customers out to dry is basically not facing reality. I'll admit, though, Steve's Reality Distortion Field has quite a great range, so I don't blame you. But I deeply sympathize with all those who feel justified in their opinions that there should have been *some* update to the 15" by now. Even a small one.

Jaedreth

Hodapp

Jul 16, 2003, 02:30 PM

I have to wonder if all you people pissing on Windows have ever even used the OS for anything more than browsing the internet at the Library. I don't remember the last time I rebooted any of my windows servers at work, or my programming box at work... or my laptop for that matter, and they're all running great. (...Oh, I guess I let my laptop run too low on batteries and it shut itself down a week or two ago, but besides that... :rolleyes: )

Wintel Laptops and Powerbooks all DO the same thing, you run your programs, browse the web, get stuff done. You could make both Windows XP and OS X ****ty unstable operating systems if you don't know what you're doing. Everyone calling people who are debating going Dell (or Sager for that matter) stupid for not wanting to use OS X, I think that is rather unfounded. If I get my projects at work done, in the same amount of time, does it really matter which type of computer I'm using? I'm not a Mac loyalist, or a PC loyalist, I'm a technology loyalist... and as much as I want a Powerbook I'm sad to say that unless Apple releases something, or WORD of something coming out soon, a PC will be a better choice for a computer that will be usable for the next 2-3 years.

Ikash

Jul 16, 2003, 02:30 PM

steve jobs knows that the 15" PB updates are long overdue and now that g5 is released what can he be waiting for??? the Xserver he need to release soemthing liek the PB before school starts cuz i don't think collage kids or highschool kids are wanting a Xserver

so be realistic jobs and release the pb's already. i bet there already made and waiting hes prob just waiting for the other stocks to dry out witch is bad because no one wants a outdate PB when theres the nice 12" adn 17" to look at compared to the 15

nydoofus

Jul 16, 2003, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by Rustus Maximus
I'm curious...all these folks talking about these magificent Dell 15" laptops you're all going to rush out and get...can I see some specs? model numbers of the specific laptop you are comparing the 15" Ti to?

Thanks,

Rustus

I wonder about that too. I have a Dell laptop and i'm trying to get away from them. Dell's quality is crap. IF you absoultely need a laptop, at least get an IBM T40 or something. It will last you a lot longer.

jaedreth

Jul 16, 2003, 02:32 PM

TomA, you have shown your ignorance.

Go look up the chemical composition of Thermite, and tell me what it is used for, and then tell me what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about stressing metals, I'm talking about the most exothermic naturally occurring reaction in the world. And I'm not saying it *would* happen, but *might*. That alone would be enough to stave off a product.

Apple is very sensitive about the possibility of having another flaming powerbook.

(Edited by the Redundancy Ministry of Redundancy...)

Ikash

Jul 16, 2003, 02:34 PM

im glad apple is thinking, and mabe they even fixed the battery heat issue like in the 12" for the 15" but i think 6 months or longer is planty to solve the problem with the team of workers they have. i know apple wants to give us quality products but waiting is just torture

Avkash

Flowbee

Jul 16, 2003, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by io_burn

Wintel Laptops and Powerbooks all DO the same thing, you run your programs, browse the web, get stuff done. You could make both Windows XP and OS X ****ty unstable operating systems if you don't know what you're doing. Everyone calling people who are debating going Dell (or Sager for that matter) stupid for not wanting to use OS X, I think that is rather unfounded.

So just because the 2 OS's "do the same thing" in your estimation, we're not allowed to have an opinion about which OS we think is better?

This is a *Mac* rumors site. Most of the people here have decided (for whatever reason) that they prefer the Mac OS. Don't be so surprised. Sheesh.

Lord Bodak

Jul 16, 2003, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by io_burn
I have to wonder if all you people pissing on Windows have ever even used the OS for anything more than browsing the internet at the Library. I don't remember the last time I rebooted any of my windows servers at work, or my programming box at work... or my laptop for that matter, and they're all running great. (...Oh, I guess I let my laptop run too low on batteries and it shut itself down a week or two ago, but besides that... :rolleyes: )

I use Windows XP daily at work (programming). I haven't run Windows at home since summer of 2000, when I switched to Linux.

It never ceases to amaze me that my Pentium 200 MHz Linux machine can surf the web faster than a 1.8 GHz Pentium 4 Windows XP machine.

Rower_CPU

Jul 16, 2003, 02:36 PM

I've never seen a "severe paint problem" on a TiBook. My 1.5 year old rev A has a couple of nicks, but that's it. The rev B and C models that co-workers have are just fine, as is my rev D 1GHz.

Paint issues are nothing more than isolated cases and now FUD.

ben_whly

Jul 16, 2003, 02:41 PM

It should be noted that if Apple were to update their 15 PB with all the features I've heard people clammering for on these forums (BT, Firewire 800, AL case, Backlit keyboard, speedbump, Airport Extreme). Granted that not all of these things will come true, Apple will be in effect discouraging anyone from buying the 17 or 12' models; unless they want to take advantage of the screen size and portability. It is easily forgotten that this is all business. Apple seems to have no problem selling their current TiBook and by updating the 15 PB along the lines that people are suggesting, they could very well discourage new buyers from even looking at the 12 and 17 inch models...after all many would agree that this new 15 inch would be an ideal Apple Laptop.

Just to throw in my 2 cents, if any powerbook needs to be updated I'd say that it should be the 12 inch. Where there is a disparity between the two 15 inch models and between the 15 and 17. There is no difference betweem the two 12 inch models (save the $200 cost of the superdrive). Plus, the 12 inch is the slowest of all the current powerbooks and does not even have a 1 Ghz option. To those who will bring up the heat issue. All the more reason for the 12 to be re-engineered; many people on Apple's own support forums complain about the heat of the 12 inch.

Thanks,

Ben

dongmin

Jul 16, 2003, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by sockseller
I think Apple has a problem with doing really well for a while and meeting all their customer's expectations, then losing touch and screwing their loyalists over in order to make a quick buck....
Why do people take this so personally, as if Apple is intentionally trying to alienate their customers???

People, get a life, it's just a friggin computer. When you want to buy a TV and Sony hasn't delivered a new 30" plasma, do you say, 'Boohoo, Sony is out to screw me! No 30" plasma TV when I want it--what are they thinking!?"

Did it ever occur to you people that maybe the new 15" are NOT READY, as in, they don't have any chips beyond 1 ghz to drop into those babies? As others have noted, it's pointless to update it if they can't up the speed. (OK, maybe 3-4 months ago, they could've done an update minus a cpu upgrade; but now, it's probably 1-2 months til the 7457 is out in full.)

It blows that Apple has to rely on Moto for their laptop processors but that's how things are now. For another year at least, Apple is dependent on Moto and their lousy development cycle for the chips for their PBs and iMacs. So yeah, Apple is probably losing some customers (it always seems like two steps forward and two steps back for Apple, doesn't it?), but they can't do anything about it, other than cut prices.

plinkoman

Jul 16, 2003, 02:48 PM

would you people please stop whining, you'll get your powerbook in a month or two, i don't see why the hell they wouldn't update the case and the ram, and ae and bluetooth while updating the cpu, if you need something now, then get the ti, or buy a dell, just stop whining

tex210

Jul 16, 2003, 02:48 PM

I actually have three computers that I regularly work with. An iMac 400 dv se bought in 1999, an imac 600 that I bought at the EOL when FP were released( i figured the performance I recieved from the 400 was outstanding, and the $600 u.s. I spent was a steal), and a powerbook 1400. Remember those? You do not need the latest greatest to make a living with computers, and if you keep waiting, you'll never get anything done. I also have three fully functional dinasours...mac plus, mac 128, and just a classic, from pre ppc days. I've used the 128 occassionally for writing when nostalgia hits. Those keyboards were fantastic! I may not have the money RIGHT NOW, but I will eventually get a G5 or laptop(maybe both), but probably only after everyone else has played with them for six months or so. Then I'll get some work done. You see how the working thing buys the computers? I am not rich, nor silver-spooned, but Apple has spoiled me. I expect my day to be productive. I don't need it to be "New With Clorox!"
Seriously! There are some great deals on current laptops, and if I were a student, that's what matters... how badly do the resellers want to clear out their stock! As for the vaio thing I said earlier, I take it back. I was just made aware that they were shocking people and have been recalled. That's what happens when you rush a product out the door.

billyboy

Jul 16, 2003, 02:49 PM

I am sure it is the big money involved in the purchase of a Powerbook that is screwing a few heads.

Whatever computer you buy whenever you buy it, no way will it stay current for very long. The jokers bleating about time to go for Dells because they cant have their space age PBs NOW are jumping out the so-called Apple obsolescence pan into the manic PC update fire.

Them that say they want something to last them 3 years go right ahead and buy a crappy old 15" Ti 1Ghz with superdrive NOW, that´ll do it. Forgotten already what Panther promises to do to the performance of a lot worse computers than a Powerbook?

College students off to buy a Dell tomorrow because they cant have a new Apple toy to play with two months ahead of when they need it need a good shaking by their poor parents.

Blimey o Reilly what are some of these people on? I´d love to hear what they had to say if they owned Apple and had burst blood vessels to produce a 1Ghz Powerbook in a 1" thick case, speccing it way beyond the needs of most human beings, only to hear some spoilt kids saying "throw all your inventory away and give me something better NOW".

In case you havent guessed, I´m just a grateful old sap who cant believe how amazing my PB is, and will be for 3,4 or 5 years. Not that I wont be getting a G5 desktop before then, but that´s another story.

tex210

Jul 16, 2003, 02:54 PM

I thought it was well known the heat issue in the 12" is just the hard drive when it is left spinning? On the lower left hand side, not the processor. Spin down when possible will end that though.

vrapan

Jul 16, 2003, 02:58 PM

A technology loyalist that does not acknowledge the merits of Unix? That does not accept the inefficiency of Windows? I have been using Windows all the way since they were 3.1 gone through every single of their versions i mean every and waited a couple of years on XP as they were supposed to be Stable and trustworthy. Well after 9 years using windows I can say one thing even if you do use your PC only to browse the web Windows can make it so complicated it is not funny. Tried to change the name of a song while it is playing? Tried to connect through a new connection than the one you useually have? Have they not been slowing down after a few months of use? Have you never felt you need to format your HD casue everything goes wrong? Because the System folder is so huge and the start up times so horrible and the system so slaggish? Tried to change more than just the HD of your system and then having to waste 15 - 30 minutes trying to get a new activation code? Tried to install new hardware and windows never giving you the opportunity to install the drivers of the vendor rather installing their ones and then not letting you go over them? Ever having a company to patch their patches because they created a new hole on their system by patching an existing one? I mean do you really want me to go on???? and I have put together and installed and repaired more windows pc than i care to remember about. I have been developing Java C++ even with .Net on them running databases and tuning them and let me tell you I don't think there is such a think as stable trustworthy windows maybe MAYBE Win2000 but they are extremely incompatible with too many things and still have all the problems mentioned above. You can definitely crash any system you want to but my Windows machines were crashing any time they felt like it. My 5 month mac has had only 8 restarts and all of them where because of needed updates. The machine is running weeks without restarting and has never crashed. On top of the please consider installing XP on a 5 yo machine. Please do... I know several people that have a 5 yo Mac and run OS X on it just fine. Panther is supposed to be even faster. So again OS X on Ti anytime than Wintel on the fastest latest Dell...

jaedreth

Jul 16, 2003, 02:59 PM

You're right. It's the HD. Your workaround is the correct solution as well. Not a hardware issue.

Jaedreth

idea_hamster

Jul 16, 2003, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by io_burn
Wintel Laptops and Powerbooks all DO the same thing, you run your programs, browse the web, get stuff done. You could make both Windows XP and OS X ****ty unstable operating systems if you don't know what you're doing.

Substantially, I think that I fall into the category of people who, when it comes to dealing with an OS, don't know what we're doing.

However, at work, I spend time with our IT support remotely accessing my work station, I do other things than what I was working on while my machine restarts after crashing...stuff like that. At home, I lift my PowerBook lid, and there's OS X. Last program to crash? Can't recall. Last restart? Last update that required it.

OS X is, in fact, better. Especially for those of us who don't know how to jockey our OS around tight turns.

Is it the only consideration in buying a computer? Clearly not. But if someone told me that they would never, ever go back to Windows (or OS 9, for that matter), I would have to say, "Me too."

Lyle

Jul 16, 2003, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by tex210
I don't get people saying the 12" is too small.I am sincerely glad for you that your eyes are that young (or old, but strong). But trust me, it's too small for some of us ;)
If I had the money, my old imac dv se 400 would be a new G5 and the 12" would be my portable. If you say it's too hard on the eyes.... well change resolution...
I am a professional software developer and for me, personally, the 12" PowerBook's maximum resolution of 1024x768 doesn't provide enough "real estate". Of course, if it could crank it up to some higher resolution I'd run into some of the other problems you alluded to...
... or keep the highest resolution and make the default text larger, or.... just use zoom if you REALLY have bad eye sight.... Why not zoom on the road and have a seperate display for home?Sure, or maybe I could just install a big magnifying glass over the LCD. Give me a break.
The prices are great right now? If it's the xtra 124 mhz.... well, ask God for a little patience, say the serenity prayer, and see what happens.LOL :D Yes, I'm trying very hard to be patient, I promise. And you're absolutely right; the 12" PowerBook is an excellent choice at a good price, if it fits your particular needs. I have stood there at CompUSA and worked on one, though, and I know that that particular model isn't the right choice for me.
ps. Dell? not even the same market. Seriously. If you had said vaio, maybe, but dell? Get an ibook. OK, for the record, Dell is never going to get another dime from me. Period. ;) Now, IBM, that's another matter...

Trinity570

Jul 16, 2003, 03:05 PM

How many of you truly expected a hardware update today knowing full well that Steve Jobs was not giving the keynote. Since when has there been any kind of significant hardware update not introduced by Jobs? I don't recall one. So why then is everybody so hot and bothered by the fact that nothing of significance was introduced or updated today? I could have told you as soon as the keynote speaker was announced that nothing was going to come of today's keynote. The more recent history of Apple announcements has shown that Expo's are generally not the venue for these kind of announcements. I would not be surprised at all if the Powerbooks or iBooks or whatever are introduced next week or someother point in the near future.

Since when do college/high school students need the latest and greatest Mac? To do what? Get a current Powerbook and be happy. I've been using my Powerbook G3 for 3 years now quite effectively and can't afford a new one anyway (as much as I would love to acquire the 17" PB).

So, my point? Quit whining and be happy with what is available. The current line-up is quite enticing on it's own merits.

tex210

Jul 16, 2003, 03:11 PM

Does zoom really feel that unworkable to you? Imagine people who truly have bad eyes. It is a blessing for them. In call centers there are people who are legally blind working with easy access. I guess they are being unrealistic. I myself would love an 8" with zoom and expose as my work around. Truly portable.

Dirgothboi

Jul 16, 2003, 03:19 PM

Now I have been reading the posts on this subject all day, and just cant believe how people are being attacked for complaining that they dont want to buy the present PBs. I bought a 12" when they first came out and was quite dissapointed by the performance of the machine(besides all of the technical flaws). The 17" is just way out of the question for me to buy since I am a student so I have been hoping to sell my 12" and buy one of the new 15" PBs whenever they come out. And I will not buy a laptop that chips or gets crappy wireless signals. I love the 15" for the fact that it has the best performance but how can someone complain at people who dont want to buy a laptop that will chip on them and lose its signal. So the only thing for people like me to do is wait since the 15" is obviously flawed. Though I would not call it obselete, it is just not worth it when something that fixes those obvious problems is coming.

Lyle

Jul 16, 2003, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by Rustus Maximus
I'm curious...all these folks talking about these magificent Dell 15" laptops you're all going to rush out and get...can I see some specs? model numbers of the specific laptop you are comparing the 15" Ti to?I am a potential "switcher", but have refrained from making wild-eyed threats about buying some other vendor's notebook (and thus single-handedly causing the downfall of Apple). I don't think it's productive. And I am on record as stating that the Dell Computer Company will never, ever, see a dime of my money ;)

But since you asked, yes, I am looking around to see what some of my other (non-Apple) options are. Over lunch I went to the Gateway Store and priced their 400XL notebook, which in my estimation was closest to the 15" TiBook. I trust that you can find your way to Gateway's web site and so I won't go through the exercise of posting that model's technical specs, or its price. But suffice it to say that that I can almost pick up one of these suckers and an iBook for less than the cost of the 15" TiBook.

Another option I will surely consider is an IBM ThinkPad. Unlike the Gateway 'books, I have worked on a ThinkPad in the past and it was a very reliable box. Of course, if I recall correctly, you pay a little extra for the privilege of owning a ThinkPad ;)

Winston Smith

Jul 16, 2003, 03:31 PM

Well I badly want a 15" P'Book, my Bondi iMac is very tired.
I could go straight out and get a 12" (I might yet) or something running another OS. But I like Apple although whatever I get I will have to sort of learn a new OS (I'm OS 9 at the moment).

However I want my machine to use at home for 'normal' everyday use and as a Hub for my digital stuff.
With a new Apple machine I'll get a great music program, a great way to organise my photos, a chance to do something a little creative of all my video clips of my kid and put them on a DVD for my family to see as well as the OS that runs them without spending a penny extra.

15" feels the right size for me and I don't want a machine designed 3 years ago with flaky paint and poor wi-fi reception.

So I'll wait - boy will I wait - but if this new machine lasts me as well as the original iMac it will be worth the wait AND cracking value.

Only trouble is my daughter badly wants the iMac and that is putting the pressure on!

whatever

Jul 16, 2003, 03:32 PM

You can believe that the new AI 15" Powerbooks only have a G5 running at 2GHz. What is Apple thinking. And what's up with the new Wicked Extreme Airport technology. Come on everyone with half of brain expected the even faster WE2 airport that Apple patented last year!

What's up with the screen size. I really expected a 21" foldup Jetson car screen. A friend of friend of my cousin so them being used by Jobs at a local Starbucks.

Gee I guess Apple really doesn't want my money. I'm just going to buy a cheap TiBook.

The above is an example of a post that would have appeared on this board if Apple released a new 15" Powerbook today.

Whatever

NNO-Stephen

Jul 16, 2003, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by tex210
Does zoom really feel that unworkable to you? Imagine people who truly have bad eyes. It is a blessing for them. In call centers there are people who are legally blind working with easy access. I guess they are being unrealistic. I myself would love an 8" with zoom and expose as my work around. Truly portable.

since you bring up the visually impaired, I just happen to have bad eyesight (no driver license cause of it... bah!) the 12" is too small on it's own, and with zoom, it's hard to get any amount of work done realistically, so yeah, I am waiting on a 15" PowerBook. besides, if I wanted an iBook, i'd just get the 14.1" model that is actually faster in many instances.

tex210

Jul 16, 2003, 03:44 PM

The thinkpads are very nicely priced, and in days of old were known as solid. I don't know anything about the newest crop, other than winxp. If the os is of no concern to you, I can see how they would be attractive. This is not an x is better than y argument by the way. I would just think that this being a Mac rumors site, most people here feel very strongly about wanting access to an Apple os.
Now that I think of it.... How could anyone buy a new Apple without waiting for Panther anyway? : )
Don't you think xpose will make desktop space less relevant? We are talking about portability after all. No matter your decision, I hope you are happy with whatever purchase you make. If you're not, there's always e-bay. (insert claim of re-sale value here-even though I've never sold any of my little Apples)

Lyle

Jul 16, 2003, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by io_burn
Wintel Laptops and Powerbooks all DO the same thing, you run your programs, browse the web, get stuff done.Agreed; generally speaking, you can find equivalent types of application software for both Windows and Mac OS X.
You could make both Windows XP and OS X ****ty unstable operating systems if you don't know what you're doing.I've never worked on a Mac OS X based computer for any length of time, but I think you're probably correct on this point. If you have just enough knowledge to be dangerous, you can probably seriously screw up any OS on any computer ;)
Everyone calling people who are debating going Dell (or Sager for that matter) stupid for not wanting to use OS X, I think that is rather unfounded. If I get my projects at work done, in the same amount of time, does it really matter which type of computer I'm using?Now you're getting closer to my take on the situation, although I think we're probably on opposite sides of the argument ;)

If you can get your projects at work done equally efficiently using any software application, on any operating system, then no, it doesn't matter which type of computer you're using. And in that case, I would be first in line to tell you to find the cheapest Intel or AMD-based computer that has the features you need. But the story I've gotten from a lot of colleagues who've had the opportunity to use different software applications on various operating systems (namely, Windows, Mac OS X and Linux) is that they are more productive working with Mac OS X and software applications developed for Mac OS X. That's not to say there isn't some crappy software out there for Mac OS X; I'm sure there is. But on the whole, Mac OS X based applications seem a lot more usable than their Windows counterparts. This is of course a highly subjective point, so, to each his own ;)

Hodapp

Jul 16, 2003, 03:54 PM

Lyle, well said.

I know my posts are taken as a grain of salt, and nothing will stop any of the underlying biases on these forums... But in my opinion people who crap all over Microsoft and Windows look just as stupid as racist people who crap all over minorities. I know it's an extreme example, and people are very opinionated on their computing platforms... But it's something to consider next time all you people are posting your amazingly 'witty' rants about how stupid anyone is who wants a PC because it runs "M$ Winblows."

With that being said, I still really want an updated 15 inch powerbook :D

Rustus Maximus

Jul 16, 2003, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by Lyle
I am a potential "switcher", but have refrained from making wild-eyed threats about buying some other vendor's notebook (and thus single-handedly causing the downfall of Apple). I don't think it's productive. And I am on record as stating that the Dell Computer Company will never, ever, see a dime of my money ;)

But since you asked, yes, I am looking around to see what some of my other (non-Apple) options are. Over lunch I went to the Gateway Store and priced their 400XL notebook, which in my estimation was closest to the 15" TiBook. I trust that you can find your way to Gateway's web site and so I won't go through the exercise of posting that model's technical specs, or its price. But suffice it to say that that I can almost pick up one of these suckers and an iBook for less than the cost of the 15" TiBook.

Well, I did manage to find the Gateway site and I will take the time to post a couple of spec notes and the price.

The Gateway you are speaking about has a 2.8Ghz P4 (non-Centrino) and the same amount of RAM (512MB). It only has 32MB video RAM compared to the Ti Book's 64 (same ATI card)...and after outfitting the Gateway with the extra items you would need to bring it on par with the TiBook's wireless options, etc....you are only $400 shy of the Apple (the TiBook is 2599, the Gateway 2199)

Now the Gateway 400XL can't have more than 32MB video RAM and it doesn't even have Gigabit ethernet...plus it runs Windows XP...so all in all...I'd say they are close in their performance.

Yes, the Titanium PowerBook is dated, but Apple knows this folks. They are working like crazy to bring new PowerBooks to the market (not just the 15" either I imagine - think G5)...but to say that it can't handle your performance needs and it's price is not on par with what the PeeCee guys are offering is simply not true.

tex210

Jul 16, 2003, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by io_burn
Lyle, well said.

I know my posts are taken as a grain of salt, and nothing will stop any of the underlying biases on these forums... But in my opinion people who crap all over Microsoft and Windows look just as stupid as racist people who crap all over minorities. I know it's an extreme example, and people are very opinionated on their computing platforms... But it's something to consider next time all you people are posting your amazingly 'witty' rants about how stupid anyone is who wants a PC because it runs "M$ Winblows."

With that being said, I still really want an updated 15 inch powerbook :D

did you really associate windows with minority? Can someone please do a reality check?

Orome

Jul 16, 2003, 04:02 PM

He said it was an extreme example...

Hodapp

Jul 16, 2003, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by tex210
did you really associate windows with minority? Can someone please do a reality check?

No, my point is the unfounded hate for anything to do with a PC or Windows is similar to the unfounded hate [ in racism ]

Is a Dell REALLY that bad that anyone who posts suggesting one deserves ridicule? They're great machines, I've owned two, and have never had problem number one.

Now I know this will be replied to with "but winblows is slow and crashes lol," so I give you two pre-emptive rolleyes smileys.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Rustus Maximus

Jul 16, 2003, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by tex210
did you really associate windows with minority? Can someone please do a reality check?

I...I can't...

Apparently Paul Otellini's and Bill's Reality Distortion Fields are turned up too high today...

...need...to...touch...my...PowerMac...

codemother

Jul 16, 2003, 04:05 PM

tex210

Jul 16, 2003, 04:06 PM

extreme would be exxagerated, this was 180 degrees from the truth. Every other site out there is windows centric, where it is obvious that windows users are the majority, and we with sales under 4% are the minority. so really, it's more like an anglo man talking about all of the oppressive bigotry he has to put up with in this world filled with minorities. Ya, extreme.

Rower_CPU

Jul 16, 2003, 04:09 PM

Since we're picking nits...

Racism goes both ways, so we have PC zealots crapping on Macs and vice versa, just as you have majority racists crapping on the minorities and vice versa.

That being said, my work as a 50/50 PC and Mac technician puts me in contact with many hardware/software scenarios on a daily basis and Apple's hardware and OS win hands down in terms of stability and ease of use. We have constant issues with our 40+ Dells, while our Macs just work.

Power/speed is where the Macs are clearly lacking, but the G5 chips are going to level that playing field real fast. Whether or not we see them in a portable form factor is anyone's guess...

Rower_CPU

Jul 16, 2003, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by codemother
Unfortunately I was one of those isolated cases (powerbook 500Mz revB) where much of the paint on the surrounding strip dropped off of it's own accord. Fortunately my retailer (John Lewis in the UK ) took it back after 8 months - they had seen many with the same problem. Apple did not want to know. I really want a new PB for OS X but I will not hand over £2000 while there is any doubt in my mind it might happen again. That's why I won't buy the current Ti machine.

I hope the delay for the new 15" is for the new processor - what else could be the reason? but until it is updated I 'll have to wait.

Yeah, I heard about some extreme, isolated examples, too. Almost all seemed to be tied to that rev and/or batch or PBs that came out. I really haven't heard or seen anything much about that issue since.

tex210

Jul 16, 2003, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by io_burn
No, my point is the unfounded hate for anything to do with a PC or Windows is similar to the unfounded hate [ in racism ]

Is a Dell REALLY that bad that anyone who posts suggesting one deserves ridicule? They're great machines, I've owned two, and have never had problem number one.

Now I know this will be replied to with "but winblows is slow and crashes lol," so I give you two pre-emptive rolleyes smileys.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Oh no you did'nt.
this thread is definitely coming to an end soon.
If anything, I would associate the distaste mac users have for x86 tech is more like the angry minority who is sick of having everything brady bunched into their faces. windows will be required for our new voting system, windows takes on homeland security, oh yeah, you can't even go to the loo without windows. If you use a mac, you need to eat in the kitchen like help, and no you can't vote. Mac user? You're a security risk, line them up on the wall and shoot them. Be a good nazi and comply.

by the way, i'm mixed. I don't have a race. My heritage is a little of this and a little of that. I think if the world were realistic, we would all realize that a pure race is nothing but inbreeding.

Brother Mugga

Jul 16, 2003, 04:20 PM

Yay Rower

I *think* that pretty much sums up what io_burn was getting at (feel free to correct me if not).

As a PeeCee'er who's actually a closet (oh sod it - who am I kidding - I'm WAY out there with it...) Macoholic, it never ceases to amaze me how people can so easily descend into a rabid frenzy over these things..........

.....isn't it GGggggggggrrrrrrreat?

I mean, that's the value of having broadband right there.

BT (or whoever you have over in the U.S.) should stick it in their adverts: "Get online and catch the foam..."

Or, you know, something less open to smutty interpretation...

Brother Mugga

PS: Hang on...what was this thread about again...?

TomA

Jul 16, 2003, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by jaedreth

Go look up the chemical composition of Thermite

(Edited by the Redundancy Ministry of Redundancy...)

No thanks. Why don't you point out to us how a computer chip will get so hot as to make an aluminum laptop dangerous?

Because you are being silly, that's why.

Lord Bodak

Jul 16, 2003, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by io_burn
No, my point is the unfounded hate for anything to do with a PC or Windows is similar to the unfounded hate [ in racism ]

Is a Dell REALLY that bad that anyone who posts suggesting one deserves ridicule? They're great machines, I've owned two, and have never had problem number one.

Now I know this will be replied to with "but winblows is slow and crashes lol," so I give you two pre-emptive rolleyes smileys.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

In some cases you're right. But a lot of the hate for PCs and Windows is _far_ from unfounded. I've been a Windows user since I installed 3.1 in 1991 (and Linux at home since 2000). I spend my days coding on a Windows XP machine. My distaste for Windows is well-founded in stability and performance issues that Microsoft promises to fix with every new release.

My degree is in computer engineering. Having programmed Intel chips, Motorola chips, and working with both CISC and RISC architectures, I have no doubt that PPC processors are far superior to anything Intel/AMD can develop as long as they hold on to the legacy x86 architecture.

As for Dell specifically, I have never owned one. Everyone I know who has owned a Dell laptop has had so many problems that I would not go near one.

Hodapp

Jul 16, 2003, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by TomA
No thanks. Why don't you point out to us how a computer chip will get so hot as to make an aluminum laptop dangerous?

Because you are being silly, that's why.

I would have to agree. Seems like he's going off what he saw on Star Wars instead of what he learned in Chemistry. Where the hell is the Potassium in a powerbook? Or the glycerin igniter for that matter? I suppose if you dropped the powerbook in to a wood chipper and the shards of powerbook landed in a puddle of potassium and glycerin... then you might have something. :rolleyes:

Lyle

Jul 16, 2003, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by Rustus Maximus
Well, I did manage to find the Gateway site and I will take the time to post a couple of spec notes and the price.Sigh... OK.
The Gateway you are speaking about has a 2.8Ghz P4 (non-Centrino) and the same amount of RAM (512MB). It only has 32MB video RAM compared to the Ti Book's 64 (same ATI card)...and after outfitting the Gateway with the extra items you would need to bring it on par with the TiBook's wireless options, etc....you are only $400 shy of the Apple (the TiBook is 2599, the Gateway 2199).Fair point on the difference in video RAM, I hadn't picked up on that. I also now see that the maximum resolution is 1024x768, which displeases me. But moving on, at the Gateway Store, I did ask them to spec it out with a Linksys 802.11g wireless card, which adds $70 to the price. So added to the $1700 base price, that brings us to about $1770, not $2199. I'm not arguing with your math, but what other options did you "outfit" the Gateway with to bring it on par with the TiBook?
Now the Gateway 400XL can't have more than 32MB video RAM and it doesn't even have Gigabit ethernet...plus it runs Windows XP...so all in all...I'd say they are close in their performance.
OK, I'll assume that there's no sarcasm buried last comment ;) Yes, I thought as far as Gateway's offerings go, this one was roughly the equivalent of the TiBook. And if I do end up buying an Intel/AMD-based notebook of some kind, it's my intention to dual boot Windows and Linux, as I'm doing more and more of my work under Linux these days anyways.

As noted in some of my previous post(s), I am not hung up on the difference in processor speed. But (by my reckoning) a $1000 price difference for "technologically equivalent" systems is tough to justify. The question for me, then, is whether the increased productivity and the (admittedly subjective) aesthetic advantages of being able to run Mac OS X are worth this price premium.

reflex

Jul 16, 2003, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by TomA
12" is just too small for one's sole computer. 17" is beyond his university budget. The 15" is outdated, no matter what the Mac Nazi's say and it has severe paint problems. He can't just "wait", because he doesn't have ANY computer right now. Apple has no good option for him.

I feel sorry for your professor, but sometimes you just can't get what you want when you want it. Apple also doesn't sell that 8.9" screen laptop that I might want to buy from them.

I agree that Apple has been slow to update the 15" though. Not that I mind too much, I prefer the Ti look to the Al look. But maybe I'd like a 15" Al laptop even better, who knows.

vrapan

Jul 16, 2003, 04:40 PM

The whole thing with the minorities is quite funny simply because I am not speaking as a born die hard Mac fun. I gave Windows every chance under the sun. I owned them, paid for them, used them fixsed them, played on them wokred on them, learnt any knowledge I have about the computer world from them and every day I spent with them it was a day I was pushed away to find something different. MS and the Wintel platform in general had every chance to prove me that they are worthy of my time and money and they failed miserably. On the contrary the only thing I am saying every minute I spent on my 12" PB ? "Why didn't i switch earlier"? Now if Apple turns bad and horrible and buggy and slaggish and crashy and humiliates me with horrible Activation Schemes treating me like a criminal before I even buy the product then I will be the first one to try something different.... I don't hate windows I just don't think they ever did enough to make me love them

jaedreth

Jul 16, 2003, 04:40 PM

The NMR report reported last month of Apple aggressively trying to find a vendor for Fuel Cells. Now while at first I thought this complete bull-excrement, I'm now thinking otherwise.

1) This is the Gay Blade reporting. He has close ties at Apple.

2) According to the article, Apple is not trying to make such a vendor fit a fuel cell into an existing battery slot, but is offering to *redesign* the portable products around an existing fuel cell design, if needed.

The Naked Mole Rat report does a special Recon for Investors report that shows even more dirt that jsp's like us won't find out. So I am starting to believe *this* to be the reason why there have been no powerbook updates since January. They are redesigning all the powerbooks and ibooks for use with a specific Fuel Cell vendor. Imagine the "battery life" on those...

Year of the Notebook? This could actually deliver on that note.

Keep your eyes and ears peeled.

Jaedreth

TomA

Jul 16, 2003, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
I've never seen a "severe paint problem" on a TiBook. My 1.5 year old rev A has a couple of nicks, but that's it. The rev B and C models that co-workers have are just fine, as is my rev D 1GHz.

Paint issues are nothing more than isolated cases and now FUD.

WOW! A giant sample of FOUR!!! You must be correct then!

You obviously don't know much about the issue at all. Perhaps you should educate yourself on the matter before making false statements:

1. I can email you pictures of mine--which has had the shell repleaced once already.

2. You can go look at the transcript of Jobs MWSF statement about the benefit of the new aluminum ones not having paint.

3. They make a product called Ti paint. Wonder why?

4. You can do a search for "powerbook titanium paint problems"

5. or look at (the first is the best)

http://www.djedwhite.com/photo/photo.php?dir=Defective_Powerbook

http://www.alfar.com/~amanda/TiPics/

http://www.scrubbybubbles.com/tibook/

http://discussions.info.apple.com/WebX?50@183.ekTGajTzegM.145113@.2cd5dd19/128

http://www3.macintouch.com/pbg4reader12.html

http://www.powerbookcentral.com/features/pbquality2.shtml

http://www.powerbookcentral.com/features/g4paint.shtml

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/eric.rsoc/

http://www.pbzone.com/archive/0402_8thru15.shtml

http://community.webshots.com/scripts/guestbook.fcgi?albumID=30191816

http://www.experts-exchange.com/Hardware/Mac_Communications/Q_20456988.html

http://www.macopinion.com/columns/roadwarrior/02/12/10/

http://homepage.mac.com/jmatwood/tibook/

http://www.uc.pt/ihti/joaquim/titaniumproblem/

http://community.webshots.com/user/mackgammon

http://homepage.mac.com/jbondo/PhotoAlbum1.html

http://bayoudog.com/powerbook/

reflex

Jul 16, 2003, 04:43 PM

Originally posted by tex210
[B]windows will be required for our new voting system, windows takes on homeland security, oh yeah, you can't even go to the loo without windows. If you use a mac, you need to eat in the kitchen like help, and no you can't vote. Mac user? You're a security risk, line them up on the wall and shoot them. Be a good nazi and comply.

Sounds more like a political problem than one of operating systems. But that's another discussion I suppose...

TomA

Jul 16, 2003, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by reflex
Apple also doesn't sell that 8.9" screen laptop that I might want to buy from them.

Yeah? Well neither does anyone else. So you are SOL on that one. :rolleyes:

Luckily many companies make 15" computers other than Apple! :D

Hodapp

Jul 16, 2003, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by jaedreth
The NMR report reported last month of Apple aggressively trying to find a vendor for Fuel Cells. Now while at first I thought this complete bull-excrement, I'm now thinking otherwise.

1) This is the Gay Blade reporting. He has close ties at Apple.

2) According to the article, Apple is not trying to make such a vendor fit a fuel cell into an existing battery slot, but is offering to *redesign* the portable products around an existing fuel cell design, if needed.

The Naked Mole Rat report does a special Recon for Investors report that shows even more dirt that jsp's like us won't find out. So I am starting to believe *this* to be the reason why there have been no powerbook updates since January. They are redesigning all the powerbooks and ibooks for use with a specific Fuel Cell vendor. Imagine the "battery life" on those...

Year of the Notebook? This could actually deliver on that note.

Keep your eyes and ears peeled.

Jaedreth

I would literally crap my pants.

BUT, how are you going to re-fill these fuel cells? Are they going to be a proprietary apple thing? If so, I see them being expensive. Take for example if I could have a laptop that ran 4 hours on a charge that cost me 25 cents worth of electricity... vs a laptop that ran for 10 hours on a $5 fuel cell. It's not really hard to choose the old-school battery, as the money you're going to be pouring in to the fuel cells is something you're going to have to budget like gas in your car.

The way I see fuel cells working is if you can re-charge them at home for as expensive, or cheaper than recharging a LiON battery. Either through a base station that extracts hydrogen out of the air using electricity, or through buying large bulk tanks of hydrogen (or whatever the fuel is) to refill them yourself.

Imagine how cool it would be to have a base station that plugs in to the wall that you put water in which uses electricity to seperate the hydrogen to fill up your fuel cell :)

TomA

Jul 16, 2003, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by Rustus Maximus
Well, I did manage to find the Gateway site and I will take the time to post a couple of spec notes and the price.

Check out the German-made Medion laptops that Aldi is selling, THEN come back an make your comparisons with Apple...

Hodapp

Jul 16, 2003, 04:50 PM

Originally posted by TomA
Check out the German-made Medion laptops that Aldi is selling, THEN come back an make your comparisons with Apple...

I've seen those computers they have for sale at ALDI... anyone who would buy ANYTHING from Aldi needs to have their head examined, much less anyone who would buy a COMPUTER there.

Rower_CPU

Jul 16, 2003, 04:50 PM

Originally posted by TomA
WOW! A giant sample of FOUR!!! You must be correct then!

You obviously don't know much about the issue at all. Perhaps you should educate yourself on the matter before making false statements:

1. I can email you pictures of mine--which has had the shell repleaced once already.

2. You can go look at the transcript of Jobs MWSF statement about the benefit of the new aluminum ones not having paint.

3. They make a product called Ti paint. Wonder why?

4. You can do a search for "powerbook titanium paint problems"

5. or look at (the first is the best)

...

If you read back a couple of posts before frothing at the mouth, you'd see that I acknowledge that a few, very vocal people had paint issues. I also said that I had a couple of nicks on my own PB, thus showing that I know the inherent dangers of using paint.

If every single PowerBook had paint issues there would have been a huge recall and it would have been addressed. Like I said, it was a problem for a very limited number of machines, not the whole line.

The 4 machines that I have regular contact with represent every rev Apple made and if the issues were as prevalent as you seem to believe they would have showed up. Sorry for your bad luck.

Nice try with the uneducated line, though. That's a great foot to start off on here. :rolleyes:

NNO-Stephen

Jul 16, 2003, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by tex210
did you really associate windows with minority? Can someone please do a reality check?

on this board, hell yes.

Brother Mugga

Jul 16, 2003, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by jaedreth
The NMR report reported last month of Apple aggressively trying to find a vendor for Fuel Cells. Now while at first I thought this complete bull-excrement, I'm now thinking otherwise.

1) This is the Gay Blade reporting. He has close ties at Apple.

2) According to the article, Apple is not trying to make such a vendor fit a fuel cell into an existing battery slot, but is offering to *redesign* the portable products around an existing fuel cell design, if needed.

The Naked Mole Rat report does a special Recon for Investors report that shows even more dirt that jsp's like us won't find out. So I am starting to believe *this* to be the reason why there have been no powerbook updates since January. They are redesigning all the powerbooks and ibooks for use with a specific Fuel Cell vendor. Imagine the "battery life" on those...

Year of the Notebook? This could actually deliver on that note.

Keep your eyes and ears peeled.

Jaedreth

Now that's interesting, because I thought pretty much the same thing - certainly it would seem more likely than our weak moments of wild fantasising r.e. G5s.

However, from my understanding of the situation, this stuff isn't expected to be practicable until Q2/3 2004? Could be wrong, obviously; not really my area of speciality (that is to say, bulls**t).

It would be class, however, if Apple popped out a G5 15" with Fuel Cells next week.

And then gave me a cheque for an almighty pile of dosh.

Ohh oooh...and an Audi TT.

With Charisma Carpenter as the chauffeur.

And...er...and...

Oh, er...I've gone too far again, haven't I...?

Brother Mugga

Hodapp

Jul 16, 2003, 04:56 PM

If apple popped a fuel cell powered Laptop on the market in the next couple months, beating all the PC manufacturers to the punch, I honestly say I don't know anyone who wouldn't make the switch :)

...And I have friends who are hard-core PC zealots.

TomA

Jul 16, 2003, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by Rower_CPU

The 4 machines that I have regular contact with represent every rev Apple made and if the issues were as prevalent as you seem to believe they would have showed up.

Buddy, you have a sample of ONE from each rev! At least I have a sample of two. (The first one they replaced and the new one.)

Again, you REALLY need to check out the links. It is a WIDESPREAD problem. The fact that Apple hasn't recalled them notwithstanding.

Originally posted by Rower_CPU

Nice try with the uneducated line, though. That's a great foot to start off on here.

:rolleyes:

Brother Mugga

Jul 16, 2003, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by io_burn
If apple popped a fuel cell powered Laptop on the market in the next couple months, beating all the PC manufacturers to the punch, I honestly say I don't know anyone who wouldn't make the switch :)

...And I have friends who are hard-core PC zealots.

In fact, I'd have my body modified so that *I* could run on them.

Let's face it, that'd have to be a step up from the Mars Bars, fish n'ships, and two day old Chinese takeaways that I'm currently shovelling into it..

Now if they could just find some way of replacing my cerebrum with a G5...

Brother Mugga

Rower_CPU

Jul 16, 2003, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by TomA
Buddy, you have a sample of ONE from each rev! At least I have a sample of two. (The first one they replaced and the new one.)

Again, you REALLY need to check out the links. It is a WIDESPREAD problem. The fact that Apple hasn't recalled them notwithstanding.

:rolleyes:

Wow, n00b you have half the sample that I do!!! :rolleyes:

Like I said, I've seen all that. It's old news. A handful of pissed off people on the Web is not "WIDESPREAD". If people who didn't have paint problems were all to make websites about how many problems they didn't have then we'd see what the ratio really is.

I've seen enough in person, used 2 as my full-time personal machine for nearly 2 years, and known enough people that have them to make my own decision.

Like I said, sorry about yours and the fact that it pisses you off enough to catalog people's bitchy websites and jump down the throat of people who haven't had the same problems as you.

jaedreth

Jul 16, 2003, 05:21 PM

I expect they have been *trying* to tackle the problem of a Fuel Cell portable (iBook and Powerbook, though powerbook likely to ship first) since they released the last revs of the PowerBook (aka jan / 12/17"). And if by June, they still haven't secured one specific vendor, or two specific vendors, then they won't have new machines out by September. That's why I'm predicting we won't see an announcement until January, but it will blow our socks off.

Jaedreth

BadMDtoBe

Jul 16, 2003, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by jaedreth
A 15" AlBook with all the nicities might have gotten Too Hot.
If Apple couldn't keep it like an inch thin, they wouldn't have gone for a bulkier model. Do you know what happens when Aluminum and Iron are heated together to sufficient temperatures? Let's see how many know this one.

1) The thermite reaction requires Powdered Iron Oxide
2) The thermite reaction requires Powdered Aluminum
3) The thermite reaction requires ignition temperatures between 2000 and 3000 degrees F.

So unless you grind the laptop into 60 mesh particles and then light it on fire, the probability of getting a lap full of molten iron is pretty low.

Plus, without an optimized mixture of iron oxide to aluminum, the temperature required to trigger the reaction is greater than the melting point of silicon.

Finally, I suspect that by the time the case hit 1000 degrees F most people would probably have put the laptop down. Why, I bet that at least half of those people might even have unplugged it once it got that hot.

Bram

vwcruisn

Jul 16, 2003, 05:31 PM

Im glad i bought my 17 inch PB a couple weeks ago... just wish i would have bought it sooner...

TomA

Jul 16, 2003, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by BadMDtoBe
1) The thermite reaction requires Powdered Iron Oxide
2) The thermite reaction requires Powdered Aluminum
3) The thermite reaction requires ignition temperatures between 2000 and 3000 degrees F.

So unless you grind the laptop into 60 mesh particles and then light it on fire, the probability of getting a lap full of molten iron is pretty low.

Plus, without an optimized mixture of iron oxide to aluminum, the temperature required to trigger the reaction is greater than the melting point of silicon.

Finally, I suspect that by the time the case hit 1000 degrees F most people would probably have put the laptop down. Why, I bet that at least half of those people might even have unplugged it once it got that hot.

Bram

LOL. Thanks for the sanity! It's much needed here. Some of the serious Mac Nazis will make up ANY bizarre story to prove a point. Pretty soon we will hear that Apple doesn't have a decent 15" solution because they were worried about the possibility of a core meltdown and massive radiation leak from the lighted keyboard when it was placed in a 15" enclosure....

mistersquid

Jul 16, 2003, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by TomA

***snip***
A good friend of mine is a professor. He just took a new job and has to choose a computer before school starts. (He doesn't have a computer at ALL at his new job yet.)
***snip***
He can't just "wait", because he doesn't have ANY computer right now. Apple has no good option for him.

[mod. edit - Name calling will not be tolerated.]

If your friend is a professor like I am he may have a choice. Chances are high that the college has already appropriated the money for his tech purchase. If so, this money does not have to be spent until next July when FY 2003 ends. In the meantime, if he has a computer of his own he can use that. Or, he might even be able to get his IT support to provide one for his use until he's ready to make his purchasing request.

I'm in a similar situation and am glad I at least have my Pismo I can use at the office until the G5 PBs are announced, presuming Apple releases or announces a G5 PB in the next 12 months! Considering the long wait for the refresh on the 15", I wouldn't be surprised if G5 PBs did not exist in July 2004.

jaedreth

Jul 16, 2003, 05:56 PM

This *is* an isolated issue, no matter how many people scream. I used to work Tier 2 tech support at Apple, and if the problem was anywhere near as bad as you make it out to be, 50% of my calls would have been this one issue. Of all the calls I got, I got only about once a week or so. There are a lot *more* people not having issues than ones having issues.

Also, there was at one point an actual issue with the lighter colored paint, however the paint on the top case of the computer, the darker colored paint, would have to be scratched or worn, which is cosmetic damage, and thus isn't covered under warranty or acpp.

If you are having issues with the lighter colored paint around the edges, contact Apple, they might be able to do something. It all depends. Else, it's wear and tear.

Jaedreth

TomA

Jul 16, 2003, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by jaedreth
Also, there was at one point an actual issue with the lighter colored paint,

Straight from the Apple tech's mouth! This is the EXACT ISSUE I am talking about. Please tell the moderator. He doesn't seem to believe me.

FYI-They only replace it once under warranty. That doesn't help much when it appears again six months later...

TomA

Jul 16, 2003, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by mistersquid
If your friend is a professor like I am he may have a choice. Chances are high that the college has already appropriated the money for his tech purchase. If so, this money does not have to be spent until next July when FY 2003 ends.

True, but...

Originally posted by mistersquid
if he has a computer of his own he can use that.

...he doesn't have a laptop to use in class and...

Originally posted by mistersquid

Or, he might even be able to get his IT support to provide one for his use until he's ready to make his purchasing request.

...they don't have any Macs.

Originally posted by mistersquid
I'm in a similar situation and am glad I at least have my Pismo I can use at the office until the G5 PBs are announced, presuming Apple releases or announces a G5 PB in the next 12 months! Considering the long wait for the refresh on the 15", I wouldn't be surprised if G5 PBs did not exist in July 2004.

But thanks for being helpful!

Rower_CPU

Jul 16, 2003, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by TomA
Straight from the Apple tech's mouth! This is the EXACT ISSUE I am talking about. Please tell the moderator. He doesn't seem to believe me.

FYI-They only replace it once under warranty. That doesn't help much when it appears again six months later...

Originally posted by Rower_CPU]
If you read back a couple of posts before frothing at the mouth, you'd see that I acknowledge that a few, very vocal people had paint issues. I also said that I had a couple of nicks on my own PB, thus showing that I know the inherent dangers of using paint.

I already said I knew about the issue, and here we have an Apple saying exactly what I did.

Drop it or you're out of here.

Rx7 Fan

Jul 16, 2003, 06:12 PM

Hey Guys,

Just a thought, why don't we just wait till panther comes out and get that free with a purchase of a powerbook (maybe the powerbook will be redesign by then). That way we can save both money and time(installation time that is).

Hopefully my plan will cheer some of you up, because everyone is so freaking sad this morning when Joz didn't mention a new PB.

CHEER UP GUYS!!!! :D :D

job

Jul 16, 2003, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by TomA
Check out the German-made Medion laptops that Aldi is selling, THEN come back an make your comparisons with Apple...

Aldi is the cheap of the cheap.

I lived in Germany for 4 years and while their products were cheap, they were some of the most poorly manufactured computer equipment I've ever had to deal with.

If you're complaining about Ti paint chips, I shudder to think what you'll say about these 'do-all be-all' laptops that are being sold at Aldi.

MattG

Jul 16, 2003, 06:20 PM

Everyone bashing the "whiners" -- you're missing the big picture!

Forget the fact that Apple hasn't updated their product line yet; they have the nerve to sell a defect-ridden, obsolete piece of equipment for as much as $2599! Isn't there something wrong with that? At least sell it for a reasonable price! Anybody who buys a 15" Powerbook at this point in time is out of their mind. A Titanium Powerbook for $2599 that is missing several of the latest technologies (USB 2.0, Firewire 2, and faster DDR memory to name a few), has serious problems with it's paint finish and Airport reception, and is about to be replaced by (hopefully) something much better, is NO deal.

job

Jul 16, 2003, 06:24 PM

Originally posted by MattG
and faster DDR memory to name a few

How many times does this have to be stated?

This 'DDR' is the old half-assed implementation favored by Apple up to the release of the G5s.

It provides little to no speed increase.

Rower_CPU

Jul 16, 2003, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by MattG
Everyone bashing the "whiners" -- you're missing the big picture!

Forget the fact that Apple hasn't updated their product line yet; they have the nerve to sell a defect-ridden, obsolete piece of equipment for as much as $2599! Isn't there something wrong with that? At least sell it for a reasonable price! Anybody who buys a 15" Powerbook at this point in time is out of their mind. A Titanium Powerbook for $2599 that is missing several of the latest technologies (USB 2.0, Firewire 2, and faster DDR memory to name a few), has serious problems with it's paint finish and Airport reception, and is about to be replaced by (hopefully) something much better, is NO deal.

How many PC laptops have Firewire2? How many PC desktops have Firewire2 for that matter? ;)

I agree that the 15" is long in the tooth and needs an update, but to say that it's a "defect-ridden, obsolete piece of equipment" is going too far.

job

Jul 16, 2003, 06:29 PM

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
How many PC laptops have Firewire2? How many PC desktops have Firewire2 for that matter? ;)

Hell, for that matter, how many hard drives can actually saturate the original Firewire, let along Firewire2? ;)

Rower_CPU

Jul 16, 2003, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by job
Hell, for that matter, how many hard drives can actually saturate the original Firewire, let along Firewire2? ;)

Especially 2.5" laptop HDs...;)

macjohnmcc

Jul 16, 2003, 06:35 PM

Originally posted by maradong
damn.
that sucks hard.
sunno what to do now. i ll probably buy the 17'' or a desktop mac. i ve waited long enough.

Why would you buy a Dell over a PB even a slightly ageing 15"? Do you just have uncontrollable desire for a 15" laptop? If you buy that Dell what will it have that the current 15" PB doesn't that you expect a new 15" Al to have? Dell doesn't have built in 802.11g does it? Does it have built in bluetooth? Firewire 800?

I say if you don't care if you are running Mac OS X or not then why not just get a Dell and to hell with Apple. If you do care about what OS you are going to run then buy an existing Apple Model or hold out for a few more weeks.

If you decide to buy a new Windows based Laptop let me convince you to buy something other that Dell. Dell laptops suck. At our company we have had several Dells all pale by comparison to the Toshiba and Sony laptops.

I have a Toshiba that I bought with my own money and I love it even though it's a PIII 866MHz. My next laptop will be a Toshiba with a 17" widescreen. I'd buy a power book but I have no need for a mac at work and I have a strong need for a Windows machine at work.

Brother Mugga

Jul 16, 2003, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
How many PC laptops have Firewire2? How many PC desktops have Firewire2 for that matter? ;)

I agree that the 15" is long in the tooth and needs an update, but to say that it's a "defect-ridden, obsolete piece of equipment" is going too far.

Yeah. I don't actually want a laptop, but getting a Ti wouldn't quite be the catastrophe that some are suggesting...it's just not exactly going realise the whole 'year of the laptop' agenda in its present form.

I'm far more interested in when Apple are going to stick USB 2.0 in their consumer range (i.e. iMacs/iBooks), the absence of which stopped being amusing quite some time ago.

But I guess that's for another thread.

Brother Mugga

PS: r.e. Job's comments r.e. DDR: Absolutely. I agreed with you in a previous 'PS' quite a few posts back over precisely this point...but then edited it out because some of the other comments in it seemed more inflammatory than jocular when written down (rather like most of my research, in fact). The cache memory has a far greater impact on performance for those wheezy, bottlenecked G4s.

Rower_CPU

Jul 16, 2003, 06:46 PM

Absolutely, USB2 is a must have at this point, especially for devices such as Digital Cameras and portable HDs. It's only a matter of time for it to trickle down the product line from the G5.

I'm looking forward to the day that downloading 100MB of images off my camera doesn't take 3 minutes. :)

job

Jul 16, 2003, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by Brother Mugga
Yeah. I don't actually want a laptop, but getting a Ti wouldn't quite be the catastrophe that some are suggesting...it's just not exactly going realise the whole 'year of the laptop' agenda in its present form.

I would tend to agree with this point. Although I've always wondered if (Steve ;)) Jobs expected the 'year of the laptop' phrase to stick around as much as it has. The current 15 inch Ti does stick out like a sore thumb, but it certainly isn't one of the horsemen of the coming apocolypse that some people are making it seem. And it certainly isn't a 'bad' computer. I'd much rather have one than my old, wheezing slot-loading iMac. What I would give to have 1Ghz with 64MB of VRAM..... ;) :p

Brother Mugga

Jul 16, 2003, 06:57 PM

Hey troops; check out the latest site update.

50% of sales went to new Mac users.

Blimey.

No-one seems to have picked up on it on the other thread (so clearly I've barged in in my usual juvenille manner...).

Although I've been following Mac sites for about 18 months [ever since I almost put my PC (rather ironically) through the window (for the fourth time in one day) and decided to switch] I have no idea about whether this '50%' figure is par for the course or a cause celebre. Any insight?

Brother Mugga

PS: And yes, in case you're wondering, I AM trying to avoid doing work by surfing new sites. Let he who is without sin...

Brother Mugga

Jul 16, 2003, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Absolutely, USB2 is a must have at this point, especially for devices such as Digital Cameras and portable HDs. It's only a matter of time for it to trickle down the product line from the G5.

I'm looking forward to the day that downloading 100MB of images off my camera doesn't take 3 minutes. :)

Shhhhhhhhhh! I'm getting my ex's parents to buy an iMac by telling them that iPhoto is great for their digital piccys (no lie, no foul there...but); I'm rather hoping the USB 2.0 thing creeps under the radar (we've been holding off from purchasing for about a month in the (now clearly forlorn) hope that there might have been some kind of announcement today. Ho hum...).

Brother Mugga

PS: On this: why don't Apple make a USB 2.0 to Firewire adaptor? I know a load of people who'd get one. Again, not really my area, so feel free to tell me it's a no-go on the engineering front...

stompy

Jul 16, 2003, 07:13 PM

Originally posted by job
Although I've always wondered if (Steve ;)) Jobs expected the 'year of the laptop' phrase to stick around as much as it has.

Funny you should put it that way, Jobs reiterated this point today in the Q3 results briefing. In summary, IN context:

The shift in market from desktops to portables is still very strong; Apple cites Jobs' "Year of the laptop" statement.

You're probably as sick of hearing people on these boards quote (and misinterpret) TYOTL/P*, but it seems clear that what he meant today and Jan. 7 is that portables are becoming the computer of choice.

*The year of the laptop/portable

MattG

Jul 16, 2003, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by Brother Mugga
Yeah. I don't actually want a laptop, but getting a Ti wouldn't quite be the catastrophe that some are suggesting...it's just not exactly going realise the whole 'year of the laptop' agenda in its present form.

I'm far more interested in when Apple are going to stick USB 2.0 in their consumer range (i.e. iMacs/iBooks), the absence of which stopped being amusing quite some time ago.

But I guess that's for another thread.

See, and that's my biggest beef with Apple. I hate the fact that you always have to buy the more expensive computer just to get a few simple features that should be included with ALL of their computers. No USB2 in the iMacs/iBooks. No CD burner in the low end iBook--just a CD-ROM drive that won't even play DVDs! Nooooooo, you have to spend $300 additional for the next model up to get a combo drive, something that costs next to nothing to produce, and is included in even the cheapest PC laptops being sold.

Brother Mugga

Jul 16, 2003, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by MattG
See, and that's my biggest beef with Apple. I hate the fact that you always have to buy the more expensive computer just to get a few simple features that should be included with ALL of their computers. No USB2 in the iMacs/iBooks. No CD burner in the low end iBook--just a CD-ROM drive that won't even play DVDs! Nooooooo, you have to spend $300 additional for the next model up to get a combo drive, something that costs next to nothing to produce, and is included in even the cheapest PC laptops being sold.

Hey...looks like it ISN'T for another thread.

Does this mean I've hijacked the thread?

Go me.

Er...woah.

Aaaaaaanyway.

I agree, mate. I lost two potential switchers last Spring when no USB 2.0 appeared on the Power Macs (there were other reasons (noise being one of them) but that was a biggy, given the dearth of PCI cards to remedy the situation at that time).

It's like the iMacs. I could have shifted about another three or four if they'd only seen their way to releasing a 'middle' iMac 17" with just a DVD/CD-RW (no superdrive) for about £1100-1200. As it is, to get the 17" screen (not just bigger, but a LOT nicer than the 15"), you have to buy all the associated high-end stuff. And loads of people just say 'what the hell do I need a DVD burner for' (of course I point out that, once they've got one, they'll wonder how they ever managed without, but there you go...). Ho hum.

Still, I suppose I should just be glad the iMac exists; it'd be a poorer world without them...

Brother Mugga

PS: My personal beef with Apple is all this 'video mirroring' crap. I'd have bought an iMac in a nanosecond if it did extended desktop. Can I be the only 'switcher'/Mac user who already has a nice monitor that they'd really like to keep using?

Billicus

Jul 16, 2003, 08:15 PM

Seems like this was kind of a lackluster presentation then, huh? No wonder Jobs didn't want to do it.

Rustus Maximus

Jul 16, 2003, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by Lyle
Sigh... OK.
Fair point on the difference in video RAM, I hadn't picked up on that. I also now see that the maximum resolution is 1024x768, which displeases me. But moving on, at the Gateway Store, I did ask them to spec it out with a Linksys 802.11g wireless card, which adds $70 to the price. So added to the $1700 base price, that brings us to about $1770, not $2199. I'm not arguing with your math, but what other options did you "outfit" the Gateway with to bring it on par with the TiBook?

Well, first you need to add in an onsite support package, which is included with Applecare...

Then, I added Windows XP Professional which I assume everyone here would want ;) and an extra life battery to help it match up with the 5 hours of battery life you'll get with the TiBook...

I forgot to add the Movie Creator deal and Photoshop Elements for $190 bucks so it would have the same iMovie and iPhoto-like capabilities...and all that together comes to $2289.

Another place where I messed up in my first post is my figure for the TiBook...I didn't add in the AppleCare package...which takes that to $2948.

So a difference of about $650...

Originally posted by Lyle
OK, I'll assume that there's no sarcasm buried last comment ;)

I can't let you do that...it was loaded with sarcasm...canned Apple-User sarcasm ;)

Originally posted by Lyle
Yes, I thought as far as Gateway's offerings go, this one was roughly the equivalent of the TiBook. And if I do end up buying an Intel/AMD-based notebook of some kind, it's my intention to dual boot Windows and Linux, as I'm doing more and more of my work under Linux these days anyways.

As noted in some of my previous post(s), I am not hung up on the difference in processor speed. But (by my reckoning) a $1000 price difference for "technologically equivalent" systems is tough to justify. The question for me, then, is whether the increased productivity and the (admittedly subjective) aesthetic advantages of being able to run Mac OS X are worth this price premium.

Going beyond the specs...let's look at the measurements for the 400XL (or most comparable PC laptops for that matter)

Dimensions
13.15”(W) x 10.83”(D) x 1.68”(H) compared to 13.4"(W) x 9.5"(D) x 1"(H) for the TiBook

Weight
7.53 lbs compared to 5.4 for the TiBook

To me...(and we all know about opinions :) ) the TiBook is just more refined. As Rower, and many others who use Windows regularly have, stated, OSX is a much more, MUCH MORE stable OS and the applications written for the Mac tend to be more stable and benefit more greatly from the efficiency of the OS...namely advanced memory management.

Having used OSX from the get go, and having used Windows for years prior to that I can say (with education ;)) that Windows doesn't compare to OSX. It's like using a Wal-Mart house painting brush to make an oil painting versus a Winsor-Newton. Again...it's just more refined. Is that worth $700?...I think it is...versus not having the hassle of Windows, etc. (insert standard antiWindows argument here ;)) but in the end you have to make that decision for yourself according to your or your company's needs.

But for some to say the 15" doesn't compare or can't compete with most laptops in it's middle-class field is just not accurate.

And thanks for being one of the level headed debaters in this monster thread. Healthy, even heated debate is good for all sides I think. It's when some folks take it personal and resort to name calling because they have a weak argument that the debate stops. Am I passionate about Apple? Oh yeah! (for reasons listed in my many other pro-Apple posts) Am I unwilling to hear the speech of criticizers or (gasp :eek: ) Pro Windows people...nope...gives me a chance to show them a better, brighter pathway to computer enlightenment ;)

And speaking of bright futures...

Originally posted by Brother Mugga
Hey troops; check out the latest site update.

50% of sales went to new Mac users.

Blimey.

No-one seems to have picked up on it on the other thread (so clearly I've barged in in my usual juvenille manner...).

Although I've been following Mac sites for about 18 months [ever since I almost put my PC (rather ironically) through the window (for the fourth time in one day) and decided to switch] I have no idea about whether this '50%' figure is par for the course or a cause celebre. Any insight?

Year of the laptop, indeeeeed :D

Celebrate on, Brother...celebrate onnnn!

edited to add TiBook measurement comments

BigJayhawk

Jul 16, 2003, 09:06 PM

OK, let's start adding up the Dell receipts . . .

Everyone that is going to buy a Dell because they dislike Apple's release schedule start posting scans of the checks made out to Dell (or your C/C receipts). Hmmm, I'll be waiting while I am having a BLAST on my obsolete Ti800 PB. (It looks like there is a LOT of cheap talk here.)

By the way, when I walk down the steep stairs in my house I seldom think about my safety. When I carry my TiPB down the stairs to my house I actually find myself walking more carefully. If my TiPB was so "outdated" and "obsolete" why do you think I would esteem it so highly? EVERY time I SEE or WORK ON a WINDOZE machine I value my TiPB even more!

MattG

Jul 16, 2003, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by BigJayhawk
By the way, when I walk down the steep stairs in my house I seldom think about my safety. When I carry my TiPB down the stairs to my house I actually find myself walking more carefully.
That's probably because if you walked too fast and a breeze hit it at just the right angle, it'd scrape some of the fancy metallic finish off of your outdated TiPB. :rolleyes:

whatever

Jul 16, 2003, 09:25 PM

I know this is a little bit off topic, but based on some of the posts I thought I would give my two cents.

The IBM ThinkPad (not the cheapo line that IBM always seems to make) as always been in my own opinion the best laptop out there. The biggest problem is that they never die and just keep working. I had my last ThinkPad for over three years until I upgraded, first to a Micron (or craptron) and after one year and several replacements (I travel a lot and they just can't take it) I was switched over to a Dell (slightly better than the Micron, it has only been sent out three times. My company has since switched back to ThinkPads. IBM may be slow to add new technology to the ThinkPads, but at the end of the day (or flight) I would prefer having a computer that turns on after going through airport security than the latest technology. After all it's the end that matters not the means.

I plan to pick up new Powerbook when they come out and it will be interesting to see how they handle being ripped out of my computer bag, as I'm taking my shoes off for airport security and then thrown back in the bag...

I like to think of Powerbooks as the Rolls Royce of the laptop world and the ThinkPad as the solid workhorse.

Whatever

ColdZero

Jul 16, 2003, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by Trinity570
Since when do college/high school students need the latest and greatest Mac? To do what? Get a current Powerbook and be happy. I've been using my Powerbook G3 for 3 years now quite effectively and can't afford a new one anyway (as much as I would love to acquire the 17" PB).

So, my point? Quit whining and be happy with what is available. The current line-up is quite enticing on it's own merits.

Photoshop, compiling, dreamweaver, flash, director, final cut. College students need powerful computers. I will not buy a 15" powerbook when there is a 12" with the all the features I want except the faster processor, screen and L3 cache. Luckly I can wait until a new 15" is released. The 17" is also out of the question, most college students can't dump 3k+ on a laptop.

Flowbee

Jul 16, 2003, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by MattG
That's probably because if you walked too fast and a breeze hit it at just the right angle, it'd scrape some of the fancy metallic finish off of your outdated TiPB. :rolleyes:

Oooh...so clever. TiBooks don't have a 'metallic finish.' You must be an expert or something. Rolleyes, indeed.

Hawthorne

Jul 16, 2003, 10:34 PM

Go ahead. Do just that.

But be prepared to curse the day you did when Apple releases their new laptop.

Patience is a virtue.

As I write this on my 700mhz ibook, there is a fellow student searching for an electrical plug for his brand new Dell portable ,which looks like a blind epiletic decided to clone the TiBook.

Amazing how Dell and the rest of the PC world has yet to catch up with the design and features of the original 500mhz TiBook, and now they're saying that mhz doesn't matter, too.

illumin8

Jul 16, 2003, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by Rustus Maximus
I'm curious...all these folks talking about these magificent Dell 15" laptops you're all going to rush out and get...can I see some specs? model numbers of the specific laptop you are comparing the 15" Ti to?

Umm... sure. There are two Dell laptops that have been catching my eye lately. Both of them have 15.4" widescreen displays with 1920x1080 resolution!

The first one is the Dell Lattitude D800 (http://www.dell.com/us/en/bsd/products/model_latit_latit_d800.htm). This one is based on the new Intel Centrino chipset (Pentium M). Basically, Apple has been kicking the Wintel system's ass in the battery life department simply because the Motorola processors are great at low power applications. They only eat 20 watts or so, compared to a P4 desktop chip that can use 3 or 4 times that much power. The Pentium M was designed from the ground up as a mobile chip, and now they're finally getting the battery life that the TiBooks have been getting all along. Not to mention it has a Nvidia GeForce 4 4200 Go graphics chipset so it is awesome at gaming (basically the same as a GF4ti4200 desktop chip). Cons with this system are it's size and weight. It should be smaller than it is, it's 1.5" thick and weighs 7 pounds.

The second one is the Dell Inspiron 8500 (http://www.dell.com/us/en/bsd/products/model_inspn_inspn_8500.htm). This one is heavier and bulkier, because it's got a Pentium 4M processor instead of the lower power Pentium M. But it's less expensive and basically has the same performance. They have really good deals on it right now like $400 mail-in-rebate.

Either one would be a great machine, I just wish Dell would make them smaller, lighter, and sleeker like the Powerbooks. Oh, and put OS-X on them too... :D

illumin8

Jul 16, 2003, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by nydoofus
I wonder about that too. I have a Dell laptop and i'm trying to get away from them. Dell's quality is crap. IF you absoultely need a laptop, at least get an IBM T40 or something. It will last you a lot longer.

The IBM T40 is one awesome portable machine... Too bad IBM has had the same fugly design since the 1990s...

They are great functional business machines, but don't look too good.

illumin8

Jul 16, 2003, 11:17 PM

Originally posted by billyboy
College students off to buy a Dell tomorrow because they cant have a new Apple toy to play with two months ahead of when they need it need a good shaking by their poor parents.
Hehehe... How true this is... For the record, I'm not a spoiled college student that can't wait 2 months for my new toy. I paid my own way through college and used a student loan to build myself an 80386-33 mhz computer... Those were the days.

Anyway, I'm just an IT professional with a lot of disposable income (thank god I'm working now and not laid off like half the fools that got in during the rush) that wants one of the best computers money can buy. I own a Dell desktop, a 30GB iPod, and I pre-ordered a Dual 2.0 G5. I've been waiting for the 15" PowerBook to be updated since February, and at this point I'm patient enough to keep waiting. I might even wait until the G5 PB is out just so I'm not a processor generation behind in 2004, but probably not.

illumin8

Jul 16, 2003, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by io_burn
BUT, how are you going to re-fill these fuel cells?
I believe the fuel cell technology that will eventually arrive in laptops can be recharged by pouring methanol into the fuel cell... seriously. As an added bonus when your Powerbook is running low on juice and you're on one of those long international flights, a shot of vodka from the helpful flight attendant should give your Powerbook a few more hours of computing... :D

Productive and intoxicating...

illumin8

Jul 16, 2003, 11:54 PM

Hey, I just thought I would give you my 2 cents on why Apple's PowerBooks are still the best portables around. Here it goes <dons flame retardant suit>:

It's all about battery life

Knock the Motorola G4 all you want, but the fact of the matter is that the G4 is an ideal processor for low power applications like mobile computing. Intel is just now figuring out that it's not a very good idea to try to shove a desktop chip into a laptop and call it "portable". They still have a ways to go. For this reason alone the PowerBooks beat Wintel based notebooks hands down. If you're looking for a desktop replacement that you don't have to take home very often and will usually be tethered in one place, by all means get that 3.2 ghz. P4 that weighs 10 pounds. But if you want a portable machine that will actually operate for a few hours comfortably away from electricity and won't break your arm trying to carry it, go for the PowerBook. I'd also say that if the primary use of your laptop is having a portable machine you can take to LAN parties and game with, the Wintel solution is your best bet. It's going to be more portable than a desktop, and the performance will rock with a higher end GPU.

The Gap is closing

That having been said, the gap is closing. Intel's new Pentium M (Centrino) chips perform comparable to P4 desktop chips in the 2.x ghz. range and are getting better and better battery life. Most manufacturers still haven't gotten the weight and size down to where they are easily portable like the PowerBook though. Expect the Wintel manufacturers to give Apple a serious run for it's money in the portable market space over the next couple of years.

Do you really want a G5 in a PowerBook?

This is my final point. Knowing all the reasons why a G4 PowerBook is better than a desktop processor that's been shoehorned into a 10 pound behemoth that should be called a luggable, do you really expect the G5 to have this level of portability any time soon? Or this level of battery performance? I think the G4 is going to be the sweet spot for mobile computing for quite some time because as it is, the G5 is just too power hungry for a decent mobile application.

Recommendations

I recommend that everyone wait patiently until the 15" PowerBook is updated to the Motorola 7457 processor, at which time we should see approximately 1.3 ghz. G4 performance, 200 mhz. FSB, and all the other goodies from the 17". I've been waiting patiently since February.

Cheers!

Rustus Maximus

Jul 17, 2003, 12:19 AM

Originally posted by illumin8
Umm... sure. There are two Dell laptops that have been catching my eye lately. Both of them have 15.4" widescreen displays with 1920x1080 resolution!

The first one is the Dell Lattitude D800 (http://www.dell.com/us/en/bsd/products/model_latit_latit_d800.htm). This one is based on the new Intel Centrino chipset (Pentium M). Basically, Apple has been kicking the Wintel system's ass in the battery life department simply because the Motorola processors are great at low power applications. They only eat 20 watts or so, compared to a P4 desktop chip that can use 3 or 4 times that much power. The Pentium M was designed from the ground up as a mobile chip, and now they're finally getting the battery life that the TiBooks have been getting all along. Not to mention it has a Nvidia GeForce 4 4200 Go graphics chipset so it is awesome at gaming (basically the same as a GF4ti4200 desktop chip). Cons with this system are it's size and weight. It should be smaller than it is, it's 1.5" thick and weighs 7 pounds.

Thanks for taking the time to post some stats illumin8 :)

Okay...so let's look at these reasonably...first off...getting to this 1920x1200 resolution you are talking about requires upgrading the screen to the 15.4 WUXGA which means adding hundreds of dollars to the base price of 1699, so let's not do it. Let's instead go with the standard WXGA screen which has the same resolution as the 15" TiBook with Superdrive, 1280 x 840. We'll even stay with the base processor, a 1.3 GHz Centrino.

Okay...now we have to upgrade to a single DIMM of 512 RAM to match my setup for this TiBook which also has a single DIMM of 512 RAM...now add a DVD writer to match the Superdrive...and upgrade the HD to a 60GB drive to match the TiBook...also upgrade the memory to the 64MB video ram version to match the TiBook amount...

and our total now is at 2644 for the Dell and 3,048 for the TiBook...again not much difference for about the same performance...and that includes the rebate for the Dell.

Originally posted by illumin8
The second one is the Dell Inspiron 8500 (http://www.dell.com/us/en/bsd/products/model_inspn_inspn_8500.htm). This one is heavier and bulkier, because it's got a Pentium 4M processor instead of the lower power Pentium M. But it's less expensive and basically has the same performance. They have really good deals on it right now like $400 mail-in-rebate.

Either one would be a great machine, I just wish Dell would make them smaller, lighter, and sleeker like the Powerbooks. Oh, and put OS-X on them too... :D

This one comparably outfitted from it's base config to match the TiBook is also right at 2600, but with a 2.5GHz P4...so again, not much difference overall. Especially, as you said, given the sleeker, more energy efficient design of the PowerBook. The Dells are just heavier, bulkier and more power hungry...even with the Centrino. Would you be happy with either of these? I'm sure you could be, as I told Lyle earlier, it comes down to what will fit your needs.

As for me...I feel that OSX and Apple hardware is more refined and that increases my productivity. Are they the fastest in town? Not by horsepower standards...but there is more to it than that and most anyone, even PC reviewers who honestly evaluate hardware and OS combos will tell you that OSX and Apple have the most stable and highly productive system right now.

Ever the...what was it TomA called us?...oh yeah...MacNazis...:rolleyes:

Ever the MacNazi,

Rustus

MacNazi...hmphh...sounds like some sort of horrible marketing decision by McDonalds...'Now available...MacNazis!...just 99¢!...