Powerbook Rumors Again

[MacRumors]

MacBidouille claims (http://www.hardmac.com/niouzcontenu.php?date=2003-07-20#217) to have reliable information on upcoming Powerbook updates.

They claim that the long-awaited Powerbooks will make an appearance at the "end of the next month" and will be produced with the PowerPC 7457 from Motorola. Speeds are expected to be 1.1, 1.25 and 1.33 GHz with USB 2.0 and Firewire 800 throughout the entire line.

This information is consistent with (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/06/20030625165650.shtml) expectations from The Register that this processor will be used in upcoming Powerbooks. Availability of the 7457 is expected Q3 2003, per previous reports with a top speed of 1.3GHz.

A recent Page 2 Rumor (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/07/20030719150917.shtml), however, pegs the Powerbook releases in September (presumably at Apple-Expo in Paris).

[gunb0y]

bring 'em on!

[crenz]

That would mean no more OS9 boot compatibility for the 15" PowerBook...

Apart from that, IMHO it is not hard anymore to guess at the specs for the new powerbooks. And that they will arrive some time soon is obvious as well. My guess is we'll see a number of "rumors" from different sources stating the obvious: We know they're gonna come, we know they'll use the new Motorola CPU, but we don't know exactly when :).

[beefcake]

Great, I need to make a purchase by the beginning of next month for school, excellent timing Apple.

[Stella]

Each time I read these 15.4" PB soon.. I get Deja vu of macwhispers -
"New PowerBooks out tomorrow, iPods *definitely* being released tomorrow etc etc"!!

Until I see it, now, I simply won't believe any such reports ;-)

Having said that, MacBidouille is an excellent track record recently..

[shecky]

"end of next month" = as late as August 31st

grrrrrrrrr........... i hope this means i can have one in my hands by 1st week of September or its a no go for me personally.

[mistersquid]

Anyone care to offer some comments on the 7457 CPU, its similarities to the current G4 processor in the PB line and what, if any, improvements it might bring?

I'll probably google some stuff myself, but I always love a good showing in the peanut gallery.
_______________

OK, google returns this (http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/31031.html) as the first newsource regarding the 7457. Looks like the shrinking of the die will give about a 30% boost to the clock. From what I can tell, the 7457 is a toe-the-line improvement to the 7455 given the presence of IBM's PPC 970. Natch there will be improvements to the architecture of the PB line, but for the first time starting in August or September, Apple will have a huge performance difference between its desktop and powerbook lines. Looks like this will be the year of the laptop getting lapped!

[MetallicPenguin]

I don't need one before school starts (because I don't need one for school, and I won't until college because our school was stupid and invested in some Palm thing, so there are no laptops allowed just really outdated Palms).


But I sure as heck want one before I have to go back.

[vniow]

Originally posted by mistersquid
Anyone care to offer some comments on the 7457 CPU, its similarities to the current G4 processor in the PB line and what, if any, improvements it might bring?

200Mhz bus, low power consumption and DDR support are just a few of the things I can think of from the top of my head, you know, stuff that was cool last year..

[ZildjianKX]

Hey Arn, ya forgot this:

As for the G5 protables, they shall arrive at the beginning of 2004 (perhaps February). There's still much work to do on the motherboard controller that dissipates too much heat. They'll have to engrave it in 0,09 Microns.

Also, I still wonder if the 15" will be 15.4" and have a Radeon 9600m...

[Catfish_Man]

Originally posted by mistersquid
Anyone care to offer some comments on the 7457 CPU, its similarities to the current G4 processor in the PB line and what, if any, improvements it might bring?

I'll probably google some stuff myself, but I always love a good showing in the peanut gallery.

There's no "might" about it. Motorola has released the info for this chip. It's a .13 micron version of the G4 with double the L2 cache and a few very minor tweaks. The only rumors I've heard going around about it are about possible 200MHz bus support (Moto claims 167MHz bus support, but they claimed 133 while Apple was shipping 167MHz parts, so that's not always reliable). The improvements over the 7455 are: Bigger cache, smaller chip, lower power, lower heat, higher clock frequency

[anastasis]

They need to give it a 15.4" screen and pop a great video card in it for portable gaming. Also, why don't they offer different screens for them? Every other manufacturer has SXGA and UXGA for their laptops. I would love to see a new laptop with an ATI Radeon Mobility that supports a 1900 x 1200 resolution. I currently have a Dell Inspiron 8500 (I had to sell my powerbook to get this for a new job) and it sports that resolution and it is amazing!!

[chomsky]

Personally, I'm more concerned about the video chipset upgrade than the CPU upgrade. I want a 128mb radeon 9600 in my "17 powerbook.... the geforce4 440 just can't drive 1440x900 3D very smoothly.

If this is indeed the new motorola chip though, we'll probably see faster bus speeds across the board. I think 200mhz was the referenced estimate?

mmm... faster superdrive, faster video, faster mem bus... *drooool***

I also think that this fits in well with the current student discount - the discount will deplete the stores of older models, then when the discount is over... comes the announcement.

Please, apple! Please!!

[blueBomber]

I'm really hoping that the 12" gets an L3 cache this time around, and if it were to hit 1 ghz, that would be pretty sweet too.

[DGFan]

This may also tie into the educational discount being improved. What better way to clear out inventory than to offer a better discounts to students looking for a laptio this fall?

[DGFan]

Originally posted by vniow
200Mhz bus, low power consumption and DDR support are just a few of the things I can think of from the top of my head, you know, stuff that was cool last year..

Are we talking *real* DDR support or the fakey kind of support they have now?

[arn]

Originally posted by DGFan
Are we talking *real* DDR support or the fakey kind of support they have now?

if the processor supports it - real.

arn

[xDANx]

Originally posted by Macrumors

They claim that the long-awaited Powerbooks will make an appearance at the "end of the next month" and will be produced with the PowerPC 7457 from Motorola . . . Availability of the 7457 is Q3 2004, per previous reports with a top speed of 1.3GHz.

maybe i'm missing something here...but if the 7457 isn't expected until the 3rd quarter of 2004 then why would anyone expect that new powerbooks would ship with 7457s by the end of august? or is it just a typo and it's really Q3 2003 (which would seem to make much more sense)?

[orangeclockwork]

So does this mean I can buy a powerbook say mid-august...and if they come out with the new ones late august I could then trade it in for the new one??? I just can't go to school (august 22) without anything

[AppleMatt]

What's this about 'fake' DDR support at the mo?

AppleMatt

[arn]

Originally posted by xDANx
maybe i'm missing something here...but if the 7457 isn't expected until the 3rd quarter of 2004 then why would anyone expect that new powerbooks would ship with 7457s by the end of august? or is it just a typo and it's really Q3 2003 (which would seem to make much more sense)?

er... sorry, typo.

Q3 2003

arn

[Billicus]

Great! Now I don't know what to do about getting a 17" PowerBook. But I suppose that if I wait forever, I'll always be disappointed with what I could get verses what I can get.:eek:

[Kermit]

Motorola better have put in a 200MHz bus in these babies so that they can run on DDR400-memory without the processor being the bottleneck. If they haven't I'll be really mad. Not mad as in CRAZY mind you, mad as in ANGRY!! :mad:

[beefcake]

Originally posted by orangeclockwork
So does this mean I can buy a powerbook say mid-august...and if they come out with the new ones late august I could then trade it in for the new one??? I just can't go to school (august 22) without anything
I know what you mean. I leave August 30th, but if the PB's aren't available by then I could probably bring an old desktop.

Hurry up Motorola :mad:

[Waluigi]

Originally posted by beefcake
I know what you mean. I leave August 30th, but if the PB's aren't available by then I could probably bring an old desktop.

Hurry up Motorola :mad:

Yea, I'm taking a few old PC boxes with me too. That is, until my G5 arrives on september 25th....then I can enjoy destroying them in an open field somewhere with a sledge hammer (a la office space)

--Waluigi

[freundt]

*sigh*

well, I've waited this long might as well wait YET another month.

and I do hope I don't end up feeling like a fool for waiting -- i.e. the specs are decent.

[WM.]

Originally posted by vniow
200Mhz bus, low power consumption and DDR support are just a few of the things I can think of from the top of my head, you know, stuff that was cool last year..
No DDR support on the 7457, last I heard, but like you say it will support a faster (200 MHz) bus.

No, I don't know for sure, but that seems to be the conventional wisdom.

I have to say, I don't understand this whole thing about "fake" DDR vs. "real" DDR. DDR simply means that data is transmitted on both edges of the clock signal. The bus between the CPU and the system controller (U2 or Intrepid) doesn't support DDR. The bus between the controller and RAM does. Why do we have to use loaded adjectives like "fake" to describe this?

WM

[crenz]

I'm looking into buying a 1.25 GHz PowerMac. But if they bring out an 1.1 GHz PowerBook, I might wait a while and get a 12" instead. Anybody care to expand on the probably performance differences between a 7457 12" PowerBook and the current G4? It looks as if the PowerBook almost catches up (except L3 cache).

[Phinius]

Originally posted by crenz
Anybody care to expand on the probably performance differences between a 7457 12" PowerBook and the current G4?

Motorola has stated that there is a 40% speed improvement for the 1.33 GHz 7457 compared to the 1 GHz 7455.

[wowoah]

Great, I was all set on picking up a 1ghz 15" PB this coming week and this report comes out. Now i'm all torn up again, hahaha.

[Phinius]

Faster G4 processors for the PowerBooks also indicates that updates to the eMac and iMac will be released about the same time. Seeing how Motorola expects to get the 7457 up to 1.8 GHz, the eMac and iMac could get much faster G4 processors than the PowerBooks. The question is can IBM bump the iBooks 750FX G3 up to 1 GHz around the same time these faster G4 processors are announced by Apple? If not, then it's a long wait until the 750GX arrives in December.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by WM.
...
I have to say, I don't understand this whole thing about "fake" DDR vs. "real" DDR. DDR simply means that data is transmitted on both edges of the clock signal. The bus between the CPU and the system controller (U2 or Intrepid) doesn't support DDR. The bus between the controller and RAM does. Why do we have to use loaded adjectives like "fake" to describe this?

WM

Why not "limited" DDR support? Since it's not a full implementation...

[bluecell]

Maybe it's just me, but I think another G4 PowerBook, no matter how much Motorola updates it, will be a huge disappointment. I've already ordered a dual G5 PowerMac and I don't think I could bring myself to purchase another G4. I'd rather just hang on to my 17" PowerBook and wait until a 64-bit version comes out. God knows I'm a patient man.

[DGFan]

Originally posted by WM.

I have to say, I don't understand this whole thing about "fake" DDR vs. "real" DDR. DDR simply means that data is transmitted on both edges of the clock signal. The bus between the CPU and the system controller (U2 or Intrepid) doesn't support DDR. The bus between the controller and RAM does. Why do we have to use loaded adjectives like "fake" to describe this?

WM

Because, it would be like advertising that your new computer sports 133 MHz SDRAM but the actual bus is 66 MHz.

Would someone please tell me what the advantage is in supporting DDR between RAM and the controller if there is no DDR between the controller and the CPU? What is the actual benefit to such a setup (compared to no DDR anywhere)?

[elo]

Originally posted by bluecell
Maybe it's just me, but I think another G4 PowerBook, no matter how much Motorola updates it, will be a huge disappointment. I've already ordered a dual G5 PowerMac and I don't think I could bring myself to purchase another G4. I'd rather just hang on to my 17" PowerBook and wait until a 64-bit version comes out. God knows I'm a patient man.

Why do you say that? From where I sit, the G4 is an outstanding chip for laptops, generally comparable to the Pentium M and superior to everything else currently used in notebook computers from any manufacturer.

Besides, there is no evidence that the current G5 would even be as good as the G4 in critical areas such as battery life (the one area where the Pentium M trounces even the G4) or heat dissipation.

Personally, I would be very happy to see a G4 PowerBook with the indicated speeds. What else out there could beat it?

elo

[bluecell]

Originally posted by elo
Why do you say that? From where I sit, the G4 is an outstanding chip for laptops, generally comparable to the Pentium M and superior to everything else currently used in notebook computers from any manufacturer.

Besides, there is no evidence that the current G5 would even be as good as the G4 in critical areas such as battery life (the one area where the Pentium M trounces even the G4) or heat dissipation.

Personally, I would be very happy to see a G4 PowerBook with the indicated speeds. What else out there could beat it?

elo Yeah, it is superior to the Intel and AMD mobile chips because the PowerPCs aren't scaled down. However, I personally like having nearly the same performance in my notebook as I have in my desktop. I might be spoiled, but I know that I'm not the only person who feels like dropping money on another G4 update would be extremely painfull. I'll wait.

[jxyama]

Originally posted by bluecell
Maybe it's just me, but I think another G4 PowerBook, no matter how much Motorola updates it, will be a huge disappointment. I've already ordered a dual G5 PowerMac and I don't think I could bring myself to purchase another G4. I'd rather just hang on to my 17" PowerBook and wait until a 64-bit version comes out. God knows I'm a patient man.

k, no personal attack intended, but hang on to your 17"??? you've had it for how long? <4 months?

technology moves quickly, but surely, you don't think 17" is so out of date that you'd describe owning it as "hanging on"?

(of course, i presumed you have as much $$$ as most of us, i.e. buying a computer every few years, perhaps. if you happen to be a multi-millionaire, i apologize. :D )

[bluecell]

Originally posted by jxyama
k, no personal attack intended, but hang on to your 17"??? you've had it for how long? <4 months?

technology moves quickly, but surely, you don't think 17" is so out of date that you'd describe owning it as "hanging on"?

(of course, i presumed you have as much $$$ as most of us, i.e. buying a computer every few years, perhaps. if you happen to be a multi-millionaire, i apologize. :D ) Meaning that I won't even think about another PowerBook update until it gets a new processor. And yes, I update pretty regularly. But I'm not a multi-millionaire.

[mactastic]

Ha! These powerbook rumors are sounding like a broken record. At first I was bummed 'cuz I bought one when they last updated the 15" in November, and the new ones came out in January, but by now I am very happy I didn't wait for them. My 1Ghz is great!

[hippycowboy]

Newbie here (to the forum, not to the OS). Just bought a 12" on Friday. Absolutely could not wait any longer. Got the 12" instead of 15" because I knew (assumed) newer one is around the corner in at least under 6 weeks. I'm actually loving the size of it, but am wondering if anyone has info on whether the following will be updated in the 12"?
Faster video card? Ability to support digital monitor via ADC or DVI connector? More max RAM, up to 1GB perhaps? New, non iBook enclosure. I realize this is a forum on rumor/conjecture so don't flame me, just fantasizing how fast I can put this baby up on ebay!;)

[Lord Bodak]

*yawn* These rumors are getting kinda silly now. Everytime the update doesn't come, the sites just post another guess. Is there anything that makes this one more reliable than the rumors of updated PBs at WWDC? Or in New York last week?

Although I'm stuck anyway... I can't get my 12" til the end of August anyway. And that is stretching and putting the case and Airport base on another credit card...

Knowing the updates are coming eventually, I suppose I will just wait another paycheck and get my case, Airport, and iSight all at the same time.

I really just wish they'd just announce the darn things and let us start preordering! It'd be a lot easier on my budget, especially if they choose to drop prices.

*still crossing fingers for a 1 GHz 12" with some L3 cache*

[macphoria]

Would this happen?

12" PowerBook - G4 1.1GHz
15" PowerBook - G4 1.2GHz
17" PowerBook - G4 1.3Ghz

And once 12" PowerBook goes over 1Ghz mark, does that mean we can expect 1GHz G3 iBook?

[bluecell]

Does anyone recall when the iBooks were last updated?

[macphoria]

Does anyone recall when the iBooks were last updated?
According to http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/ iBook was last update on April 22, 2003.

[ZildjianKX]

Originally posted by chomsky
Personally, I'm more concerned about the video chipset upgrade than the CPU upgrade. I want a 128mb radeon 9600 in my "17 powerbook....

Same man, but in the 15" too.

[ZildjianKX]

Originally posted by macphoria
Would this happen?

12" PowerBook - G4 1.1GHz
15" PowerBook - G4 1.2GHz
17" PowerBook - G4 1.3Ghz

And once 12" PowerBook goes over 1Ghz mark, does that mean we can expect 1GHz G3 iBook?

I don't see why the 15" and the 17" would have different processors, they don't now.

[bobindashadows]

Well, we can assume that the 1.1 Ghz bus is 200 Mhz, because using a 100 Mhz bus is a step backward, and 1.1 is a nice 5.5x 200.

1.25... what do we make of that? a 200 Mhz bus, that would be a 6.25 multiplier, which as far as I know doesn't fly that well. A 250 Mhz bus would work nicely, with a 5x multiplier.

and 1.33? well a 333 Mhz bus would be fine, but I doubt it, really. A 266 Mhz bus would equate to a nifty 5x multiplier.

So:
1.1 Ghz: 200 Mhz
1.25 Ghz: 250 Mhz
1.33 Ghz: 266 Mhz

I guess they could use the same speed bus and do some funky stuff... I don't know how they'd work a 250 Mhz bus either. Probably stick with 200 Mhz and do a 5.25 multiplier.

So a more sensible table would be:
1.1 Ghz: 200 Mhz 12"?
1.25 Ghz: 200 Mhz 15.4"?
1.33 Ghz: 266 Mhz 17"?

That follows the pattern of giving super cool technology to the 17", in this case, a 266 Mhz bus.

[wondermite]

The "end of next month" WOULD be September, basically, right? Why did you say "however, a Page 2 rumor...".

[cc bcc]

Originally posted by Macrumors
Speeds are expected to be 1.1, 1.25 and 1.33 GHz with USB 2.0 and Firewire 800 throughout the entire line.

If those speeds are correct, the FSB will be at 167 MHz.
7 x 167 = 1.169 GHz
7.5 x 167 = 1.2525 GHz
8 x 167 = 1.336 Ghz

The only purpose of using DDR ram with a 167 MHz FSB is that it's cheaper than 167 MHz SDR SDRAM. (I'm not sure if it even exists.) DDR can easily fill the 167 MHz FSB, just by not using the caracteristics that makes it DDR, they are using Double Data Rate RAM at half the speed, simply because it's cheaper and looks good in advertizing. Effectively it's 167 MHz SDR RAM, not DDR.

edit: I see now that bobindashadows also mentioned multipliers. I think Apple just rounds them off to nice looking numbers.

7 x 167 = 1.169 GHz
It should be called 1.2, but that you can't justify charging much more money for a 1.25 GHz machine. So they'll call them 1.1 GHz, makes 1.25 look a lot nicer ;)

[barkmonster]

The clockspeeds seem suspect or apple are deliberately crippling them.

With the 200Mhz FSB (it can also run at 167Mhz), the new G4 should have clockspeeds in increments of 0.1Ghz assuming apple want to get the most out of the performance. I'd be more interested to see what they're doing with the chipset than what cpu speeds they're using.

It should use DDR400 and support 8 x AGP at the very least. They need to improve the powermanagement to the level where it's competitive with the battery life of Centrino laptops.

[Analog Kid]

Originally posted by DGFan
Would someone please tell me what the advantage is in supporting DDR between RAM and the controller if there is no DDR between the controller and the CPU? What is the actual benefit to such a setup (compared to no DDR anywhere)?

Some might say it's a marketing gimmick, but personally I think it's a supply issue. DDR is becoming dominant in the market so it gives Apple the broadest range of possible suppliers-- even if they can't take advantage of it.

The tests I've seen have only shown the slightest of benefits in the most artificial tests.

I think "fake" is a perfectly good term to use here... It's like claiming you have a 12 cylinder engine even if you're only firing 6 of them...

[WM.]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Why not "limited" DDR support? Since it's not a full implementation...
That sounds like a good compromise. I guess that's why they made you a moderator. :)

The important thing here is to make it clear what you're talking about. I suppose you could say that the architecture as a whole has "limited" DDR support--the processor has no support, and the RAM has full support. But when you're talking specifically about the processor, as a few people in this thread have, it's not accurate to talk about "limited" (or "fake" :) ) DDR support. The processor either supports it or it doesn't, and the 7455 and 7457 don't support it at all.

WM

[bobindashadows]

Originally posted by cc bcc
If those speeds are correct, the FSB will be at 167 MHz.
7 x 167 = 1.169 GHz
7.5 x 167 = 1.2525 GHz
8 x 167 = 1.336 Ghz

The only purpose of using DDR ram with a 167 MHz FSB is that it's cheaper than 167 MHz SDR SDRAM. (I'm not sure if it even exists.) DDR can easily fill the 167 MHz FSB, just by not using the caracteristics that makes it DDR, they are using Double Data Rate RAM at half the speed, simply because it's cheaper and looks good in advertizing. Effectively it's 167 MHz SDR RAM, not DDR.
Generally, from what I've seen, the speeds advertised are the actual speeds. As in, mostly exact speeds (ok, so the 867 was really 866.666 Mhz.) That's why I think they aren't using a 166.666 bus. In order to acheive 1.1 Ghz, a 200 or 100 Mhz bus is required to stick to the .5 scheme of multipliers. A multiplier of 6.6 would be necessary to get 1.1 with a 166.666 bus. (You get more exact numbers if you use the .66666.
But, a 1.33 Ghz is possible with a 166 bus, with an exact multiplier of 8 (it comes out evenly, again, if you include the fraction).

[Analog Kid]

Originally posted by bluecell
I personally like having nearly the same performance in my notebook as I have in my desktop. I might be spoiled, but I know that I'm not the only person who feels like dropping money on another G4 update would be extremely painfull. I'll wait.

So what you're saying is that you'd like Apple to cripple their desktops so the laptops can keep pace? :rolleyes:

The only reason the Powerbooks have been close in performance to the PowerMacs is because Mot couldn't build faster chips. It was really just an indication of how slow the desktops had become...

[Analog Kid]

Maybe Apple should brand the 7457 as the G5-M!
:D

[cc bcc]

Originally posted by DGFan
Because, it would be like advertising that your new computer sports 133 MHz SDRAM but the actual bus is 66 MHz.

Would someone please tell me what the advantage is in supporting DDR between RAM and the controller if there is no DDR between the controller and the CPU? What is the actual benefit to such a setup (compared to no DDR anywhere)?

There is a small benifit for pci/firewire/ethernet/ide, because the ram is talking to the system controller at double speed. So the subsystems (those that can use dma, Direct Memory Access ) don't slow down the cpu.
Other advantages are lower costs, and it looks good in advertising.

edit: typo

[Freg3000]

I am beginning to tune these rumors out. It is getting really sad. End of August does seem too late for college kids. What a shame.

[cc bcc]

Originally posted by bobindashadows
Generally, from what I've seen, the speeds advertised are the actual speeds. As in, mostly exact speeds (ok, so the 867 was really 866.666 Mhz.) That's why I think they aren't using a 166.666 bus. In order to acheive 1.1 Ghz, a 200 or 100 Mhz bus is required to stick to the .5 scheme of multipliers. A multiplier of 6.6 would be necessary to get 1.1 with a 166.666 bus. (You get more exact numbers if you use the .66666.
But, a 1.33 Ghz is possible with a 166 bus, with an exact multiplier of 8 (it comes out evenly, again, if you include the fraction).

I edited my post to explain the 1.1 Ghz.

But it would make no sense to use a 200 MHz FSB on the low end books, and a 166 MHz FSB on the high end. Or they must be using a 333 MHz FSB on the high end, which would be nice! (actually about bloody time)
Exacly 1.25 would mean a 200 MHz FSB with a 6.25 multiplier, I don't know if that's possible.

[bluecell]

Originally posted by Analog Kid
So what you're saying is that you'd like Apple to cripple their desktops so the laptops can keep pace? :rolleyes:

The only reason the Powerbooks have been close in performance to the PowerMacs is because Mot couldn't build faster chips. It was really just an indication of how slow the desktops had become... Umm... No, I didn't say that at all.

[WM.]

ARGH! I lost my reply because Safari crashed on me...

Originally posted by DGFan
Because, it would be like advertising that your new computer sports 133 MHz SDRAM but the actual bus is 66 MHz.
If by "actual bus" you mean the bus between the processor and the system controller, and the bus between the system controller and RAM did indeed run at 133 MHz, there would be nothing wrong with advertising it as such. Especially if you also specified (as Apple does) that the processor bus ran at 66 MHz.

If by "actual bus" you mean the bus between the system controller and RAM, then yes, that would be misleading.

It's interesting to note that the 700 MHz and 800 MHz G4 iMacs require PC133 RAM, even though both buses run at only 100 MHz (and Apple does specify that). There's an Apple technical note about it here (http://developer.apple.com/qa/qa2001/qa1130.html).

Would someone please tell me what the advantage is in supporting DDR between RAM and the controller if there is no DDR between the controller and the CPU? What is the actual benefit to such a setup (compared to no DDR anywhere)?
As someone else pointed out, there's no such thing as PC167 RAM (as far as we know). So if you want RAM that runs at a clock rate of 167 MHz, you have to go DDR, and that's what Apple has done.

Even if there were such a thing as PC167 RAM, the advantage of DDR RAM is that other parts of the system besides the processor are trying to access RAM as well (the fastest of those being PCI and AGP devices). Thing is, the processor is probably trying to access things other than RAM too, so the processor bus is again a bottleneck. The bottom line is that the best architecture would have DDR and otherwise fast buses all over the place, like the PMG5's, but that simply isn't possible with the current G4s.

WM

[WM.]

Originally posted by hippycowboy
Newbie here (to the forum, not to the OS). Just bought a 12" on Friday. Absolutely could not wait any longer. Got the 12" instead of 15" because I knew (assumed) newer one is around the corner in at least under 6 weeks. I'm actually loving the size of it, but am wondering if anyone has info on whether the following will be updated in the 12"?
Faster video card? Ability to support digital monitor via ADC or DVI connector? More max RAM, up to 1GB perhaps? New, non iBook enclosure. I realize this is a forum on rumor/conjecture so don't flame me, just fantasizing how fast I can put this baby up on ebay!;)
Where would a DVI connector fit, though? And what's wrong with an iBook-style case? It's a proven layout for fitting a lot of features in a small package (over two years old, in fact), so why bother re-engineering it? If it ain't broke...

As for over 1 GB of RAM, the 12" PowerBook does in fact support 1152 MB of RAM--you need a 1 GB PC2100 SO-DIMM. I don't know if they exist, or how much they cost (probably a lot) if they do.

I too am hoping for faster video cards across the board. I've been waiting so long...need a 15" (actually it's for my dad)...

HTH
WM

[Bruja]

Yeah... Whatever..

THE SKY IS FALLING!! THE SKY IS FALLING!!!

Truly, I want to beleive. However...:rolleyes:

[zuggerat]

eventho i'd like to have a new G4 powerbook i just purchased the current 1ghz model...im happy with my purchase and i dont see a major reason to get rid of it...it's still a good reliable machine

[WM.]

Originally posted by barkmonster
The clockspeeds seem suspect or apple are deliberately crippling them.

With the 200Mhz FSB (it can also run at 167Mhz), the new G4 should have clockspeeds in increments of 0.1Ghz assuming apple want to get the most out of the performance. I'd be more interested to see what they're doing with the chipset than what cpu speeds they're using.

It should use DDR400 and support 8 x AGP at the very least. They need to improve the powermanagement to the level where it's competitive with the battery life of Centrino laptops.
Yeah, something is definitely up with the processor speeds. I tend to agree with cc bcc, that they rounded strangely. I don't think there's any way we'll see a bus over 200 MHz.

DDR400 is almost certain with a 200 MHz FSB, of course; 8x AGP would probably require a redesign of the system controller (although a 200 MHz bus might too), but what would the benefit be? At best we'll see a Radeon 9600 Mobility for the GPU, and I'm not sure that it would see any benefit from 8x compared to 4x.

WM

[arvidvdb]

Just wondering..

A lot of posts go something like 'I need these new powerbooks before school starts" or even "the hell with apple's lousy back-to-school-timing, I'm going Dell" (well actually I read that one in the thread right after the mac creative disappointment)

What are you guys doing with your laptops other than taking notes, some browsing and e-mailing? I mean, unless you're into graphx, music or film, why do you need all the power? Wouldn't a 2 year old iBook suffice?

Mind you, this is just a question out of curiosity, I'm not trying to sound as your father... As I'm quite a gearslut myself...

But is there something about the american tuition-system which I'm not aware of? (following classes streaming online or such?)

[vniow]

Originally posted by arvidvdb

What are you guys doing with your laptops other than taking notes, some browsing and e-mailing? I mean, unless you're into graphx, music or film, why do you need all the power? Wouldn't a 2 year old iBook suffice?


That's exactly why I'm waiting for a new Powerbook.

[Lord Bodak]

Originally posted by arvidvdb
Just wondering..

A lot of posts go something like 'I need these new powerbooks before school starts" or even "the hell with apple's lousy back-to-school-timing, I'm going Dell" (well actually I read that one in the thread right after the mac creative disappointment)

What are you guys doing with your laptops other than taking notes, some browsing and e-mailing? I mean, unless you're into graphx, music or film, why do you need all the power? Wouldn't a 2 year old iBook suffice?

Mind you, this is just a question out of curiosity, I'm not trying to sound as your father... As I'm quite a gearslut myself...

But is there something about the american tuition-system which I'm not aware of? (following classes streaming online or such?)

It really all depends on what you're studying. Where I went to school (Virginia Tech), the art/graphic design departments require Mac. It may not be what they need now, starting as freshman, but if you're going to spend >$2000 on a laptop, you want to ensure it will last all 4 years doing whatever you plan to do in your major.

[arvidvdb]

Originally posted by Lord Bodak
It may not be what they need now, starting as freshman, but if you're going to spend >$2000 on a laptop, you want to ensure it will last all 4 years doing whatever you plan to do in your major.

Mkay,

but do you really think in four years time it will make a lot of difference if you bought a 1 gHz G4 or if you waited for a 1.2 ?

cheers

[RachelF2]

Well, I personally am excited about the possibility of even an updated G4 Powerbook. I would have accepted even a 15 inch brought up to date equal to the 17 inch, but I realize that is not Apple's way. If they do something, they do it well.
I will be a college student this year (one who uses movie and music editing software) and being the geek that I am, I talked by Dad into buying a "refreshed" 12in Al PB, temporarily for me (until the 15 inch is updated) and then for him. I realize not all students can do this, but its an idea. I have the unfortunate problem of bad timing (bought new iPod 2 weeks before new ones were released) and I didn't want to risk anything, though I don't start school until mid-September.
To all those who don't like the idea of updating the G4 PB and want their G5s, that will be a long time, and a major redesign of the chip, later. The G5 has 9 fans. If you have felt a G4 PB, they aren't exactly cool as it is. Apple can't afford to wait that long before a PB update.

[herocero]

Originally posted by arvidvdb
Just wondering..

A lot of posts go something like 'I need these new powerbooks before school starts" or even "the hell with apple's lousy back-to-school-timing, I'm going Dell" (well actually I read that one in the thread right after the mac creative disappointment)

What are you guys doing with your laptops other than taking notes, some browsing and e-mailing? I mean, unless you're into graphx, music or film, why do you need all the power? Wouldn't a 2 year old iBook suffice?

Mind you, this is just a question out of curiosity, I'm not trying to sound as your father... As I'm quite a gearslut myself...

But is there something about the american tuition-system which I'm not aware of? (following classes streaming online or such?)

streaming real-time interactive 3-Dimensional porn in digital 5.1 sound . . . it excels quite well on alti-vec enabled cpu's and i'm sure performance would benefit greatly from an improved system bus. a 9600m? wow, imagine all those smooth rendered polygons . . .
man, that would scream on a dual g5!! i can't wait!
did i hit all the buzzwords?

-cero

[Lord Bodak]

Originally posted by arvidvdb
but do you really think in four years time it will make a lot of difference if you bought a 1 gHz G4 or if you waited for a 1.2 ?

Generally no. It's more the supporting specs. I.E., if you are buying a 12", the current 867MHz with no L3 cache would be seriously outperformed by a 1 GHz with L3 cache.

If you want a 15", then the lack of Airport Extreme may become an issue if you are moving big files and your college has 802.11g while you're there.

Although I think any of the current PowerBooks would be suitable, if you don't mind waiting it's good to wait. If you need it now, buy it now.

Like I said, I'm still saving my money so hopefully the upgrades will be out before I have the money. Otherwise, I will probably buy what's available.

[synthetickittie]

I cant speak for all the kids going back to school (college) wanting a new powerbook before we go back but personally Im going to be a computer science major so I DO need the powerbook for the programs Im going to need to use.

[AppleMatt]

Originally posted by hippycowboy
More max RAM, up to 1GB perhaps?

You can already have over 1GiB, it just costs a hell of a lot.

AppleMatt

[k2k koos]

Okay, with all the speculation about cpu and ram etc, I wonder what they will look like, since they seem to redo the entire line, (with the 15" receiving the biggest cosmetic overhaul)I wonder if there will be any small detail changes to make them look a bit , well 'G5 ish?

Not that it is needed, the AL models are gorgeous, particulary the 17" is a stunner.

How about backlit keyboards in all designs?

Oh and what about Panther, is that backwards compatible with 32 bit systems, as these PB's wont be 64 bit yet.:)

There, said my say. You again.;)

[pimentoLoaf]

I hope this rumor comes true, with shipping models at the announce time.

[ZildjianKX]

Whatever the new PBs have, lets all just hope they can write CD-Rs faster than 8X... :)

[greenstork]

Originally posted by arvidvdb
Just wondering..

A lot of posts go something like 'I need these new powerbooks before school starts" or even "the hell with apple's lousy back-to-school-timing, I'm going Dell" (well actually I read that one in the thread right after the mac creative disappointment)

What are you guys doing with your laptops other than taking notes, some browsing and e-mailing? I mean, unless you're into graphx, music or film, why do you need all the power? Wouldn't a 2 year old iBook suffice?

Mind you, this is just a question out of curiosity, I'm not trying to sound as your father... As I'm quite a gearslut myself...

But is there something about the american tuition-system which I'm not aware of? (following classes streaming online or such?)

I think perhaps it is more of a question of value. If you plan on buying a laptop why would you want to spend the same amount on what will be 20-30% faster and better in 6 weeks. I want value for my purchases which is why I only buy right after an update. That said, I think it is a huge assumption to think that students don't need Powerbooks. I really have no idea but I would be afraid to make that assumption.

[Lord Bodak]

Originally posted by greenstork
I think perhaps it is more of a question of value. If you plan on buying a laptop why would you want to spend the same amount on what will be 20-30% faster and better in 6 weeks. I want value for my purchases which is why I only buy right after an update. That said, I think it is a huge assumption to think that students don't need Powerbooks. I really have no idea but I would be afraid to make that assumption.

Again, it's a question of when you need it. 20-30% better in 6 weeks isn't worthwhile if you need it in 1 week. People starting college should definitely wait as long as possible but I can't imagine starting college without a computer-- they had me busily working away on mine before the first week was over.

[WasteGate]

Originally posted by pimentoLoaf
I hope this rumor comes true, with shipping models at the announce time.

Don't hold your breath, this rumor is older than the "updated iPod soon" rumor. :mad:

[Nemesis]

Originally posted by elo
Why do you say that? From where I sit, the G4 is an outstanding chip for laptops, generally comparable to the Pentium M and superior to everything else currently used in notebook computers from any manufacturer.

Besides, there is no evidence that the current G5 would even be as good as the G4 in critical areas such as battery life (the one area where the Pentium M trounces even the G4) or heat dissipation.

Personally, I would be very happy to see a G4 PowerBook with the indicated speeds. What else out there could beat it?

elo

G5 is fabricated on 130 nm process, uses lower voltage and is better integrated than G4. Not to mention 800, 900 or 1GHz buses. 1.2 GHz G5 iz cooler than G4 at the same tact.
But I think Apple is keeping their mouth shut about this to silence all rumours about G5 laptops. Otherwise, their laptop sales would go down the drain. I think they're to be introduced at SF Expo, January 2004, and available somewhere in February/March 2004.

[Catfish_Man]

Originally posted by Kermit
Motorola better have put in a 200MHz bus in these babies so that they can run on DDR400-memory without the processor being the bottleneck. If they haven't I'll be really mad. Not mad as in CRAZY mind you, mad as in ANGRY!! :mad:

Moto has ALREADY ANNOUNCED ON THEIR WEBSITE what it supports: 167MHz SDR

[hasapi]

As far as Im concerned, I will ONLY purchase a new PB if its at 1.33G4 or G5.

I have a Ti400 and a 1G is more than adequate for my needs. But when I compare it to a Dell @ 2.8GHz - I feel that Apple users are entitled to something comparable in speed (about 1.4G4).

So for now Im prepared to keep my money in my pocket until there is a fair and reasonable update to Apple's PB line.

Oh BTW, the 7457 @ 1GHz uses <10W, I think they should differentiate the 17" model by using 2 CPU's. The 15" should/will no doubt have the fastest CPU Apple can employ in a PB.

I would prefer they went to G5's for the PB's and leave the 7457's for the iBooks/iMacs!. Just my 2 cents! :o

[Phinius]

In a Silicon Strategies (http://www.siliconstrategies.com/article/printableArticle.jhtml?articleID=10802061) interview dated 6/23/2003, Claudine Simson, the chief technology officer of Motorola's semiconductor products sector stated that the PowerPC processors made on a 130-nm SOI process are "now moving out". Since G4 processors made for Apple are the first to receive bleeding edge upgrades from Motorola, then it's obvious that faster G4s are already in production. It should only be a few weeks before Apple announces upgrades for G4 Macs.

Also in the last paragraph of the interview Ms. Simson states that test chips of PowerPC processors are already being done on a 90-nm process and it will be in production in 2004. Motorola has also announced that a dual-cpu G4 has been given the OK for production. So I'd expect to see a dual-cpu G4 chip at the 90-nm level in the second half of 2004. Which means at least the desktop Macs and possibly a Xserve model will be using dual-cpu chips in 2004.

[Phinius]

The current production 970 (G5) has low enough power use for a PowerBook if its run at 1.2 GHz on low voltage. However Apple would be restricted to using only the 1.2 GHz G5 due to the higher MHz G5s requiring heatsinks that would make them too thick for the thin PowerBooks cases. So if Apple put a 1.2 GHz G5 in PowerBooks this August then there could not be another speed upgrade for PowerBooks until the G5 moves to a smaller process in the second half of 2004. So Apple quite possibly decided to give the PowerBooks another G4 speed upgrade this August and then the 1.2 GHz G5 in January and finally moving it to as high as 1.7 GHz on a smaller process size in July of 2004. The reason a G5 PowerBook could jump from 1.2 GHz to 1.7 GHz is due about a 60% drop in power use when the G5 is made on a 90-nm process.

Doing this Apple is able to refresh the PowerBook speeds more frequently which keeps sales from steadily falling over a 12 month period.

[Lyle]

Originally posted by pimentoLoaf
I hope this rumor comes true, with shipping models at the announce time. Since I am "this close" to just going ahead and buying the current 1GHz TiBook, a better scenario would be an announcement now -- even if the shipping date is in August or September. But I suppose Apple's not going to pull an (Adam) Osbourne on us ;)

[Freg3000]

Originally posted by Phinius
Since G4 processors made for Apple are the first to receive bleeding edge upgrades from Motorola...

Hilarious! Just classic-bleeding edge. :)

How sad Motorola....

[daveL]

Originally posted by Phinius
In a Silicon Strategies (http://www.siliconstrategies.com/article/printableArticle.jhtml?articleID=10802061) interview dated 6/23/2003, Claudine Simson, the chief technology officer of Motorola's semiconductor products sector stated that the PowerPC processors made on a 130-nm SOI process are "now moving out". Since G4 processors made for Apple are the first to receive bleeding edge upgrades from Motorola, then it's obvious that faster G4s are already in production. It should only be a few weeks before Apple announces upgrades for G4 Macs.

Also in the last paragraph of the interview Ms. Simson states that test chips of PowerPC processors are already being done on a 90-nm process and it will be in production in 2004. Motorola has also announced that a dual-cpu G4 has been given the OK for production. So I'd expect to see a dual-cpu G4 chip at the 90-nm level in the second half of 2004. Which means at least the desktop Macs and possibly a Xserve model will be using dual-cpu chips in 2004.
I don't get this comment. There will not be, in my opinion, another generation of G4 Xservers. Whatever you're smokin', I'd like some. People on this board seem to ignore the fact that IBM has targeted the 970 for *blade server* configs, i.e. the most dense, rack-mounted, power- sensitive applications you can design in the server market. This is targeted for this year, not 2004. Why do this with the 970?: Because it uses a ***** load (that's a techical term) less power than their Power4/4+ CPUs and is intended for horizontally scalable, low cost sever systems (e.g. Web servers). I keep seeing people post here that Apple can't produce a dual cpu Xserver with G5s because of heat. That's pure BS. If IBM can produce a rack of blades with the 970, then a dual CPU Xserver in 1U is a walk in the park, easy, a no brainer. Why would Apple continue to produce G4 Xservers in light of the G5? Apple is about content serving / media. It's about rendering farms and such. They, unlike Sun / HP / IBM, care about audio and video serving, not about general IT server requirements. For Xserver, G5 is a must. There is no reason for Apple to maintain a low-end Xserver line that continues to use the G4; it's all about speed in the Xserver, IMO.

Sorry for the rant. I spend too much time on this forum and get tired of the same lame stuff over and over (I'm between gigs).

As for the low-end Apple desktop and portable line, I could see the newer G4 (and G3) CPUs being used for some time to come.

Anyway, it's just my $0.02. I didn't mean to offend anyone.

[robodweeb]

Originally posted by arvidvdb
What are you guys doing with your laptops other than taking notes, some browsing and e-mailing? I mean, unless you're into graphx, music or film, why do you need all the power? Wouldn't a 2 year old iBook suffice?


How many people have bought Macs for their "power"? Apple intentionally markets itself as delivering style (in addition to eventually-debunked claims about power) to its customers. Further, Apple makes claims about its ability to be innovative about style.

So, I think it's completely reasonable for people to be upset with Apple - not only for failing to deliver the new style in this key form factor, but for disrespecting its customer base by keeping silent about it. I don't buy claims that admitting to a 9-month (or more, let's be realistic) delay would them more than unending uncertainty and cycles of hopes and disappointments.

If I sound bitter, it's because I write this as one who awaits receipt of hs new Toshiba laptop ... I've been a devoted Mac user since 1987, but my research unit just couldn't defer purchase any longer without any definitive sign from Apple. Businesses need vendors they can trust.

As for all those who've written, in these forums, that folks should just stop whining and "go buy a Dell", I want to point out that it's just this sort of peurile arrogance that continues to keep Apple marginalized ....

Hopefully, Apple will be more consistent in two years when I can start arguing to switch back to a Powerbook ...

[bobindashadows]

Originally posted by daveL
I don't get this comment. There will not be, in my opinion, another generation of G4 Xservers. Whatever you're smokin', I'd like some. People on this board seem to ignore the fact that IBM has targeted the 970 for *blade server* configs, i.e. the most dense, rack-mounted, power- sensitive applications you can design in the server market. This is targeted for this year, not 2004. Why do this with the 970?: Because it uses a ***** load (that's a techical term) less power than their Power4/4+ CPUs and is intended for horizontally scalable, low cost sever systems (e.g. Web servers). I keep seeing people post here that Apple can't produce a dual cpu Xserver with G5s because of heat. That's pure BS. If IBM can produce a rack of blades with the 970, then a dual CPU Xserver in 1U is a walk in the park, easy, a no brainer. Why would Apple continue to produce G4 Xservers in light of the G5? Apple is about content serving / media. It's about rendering farms and such. They, unlike Sun / HP / IBM, care about audio and video serving, not about general IT server requirements. For Xserver, G5 is a must. There is no reason for Apple to maintain a low-end Xserver line that continues to use the G4; it's all about speed in the Xserver, IMO.

Sorry for the rant. I spend too much time on this forum and get tired of the same lame stuff over and over (I'm between gigs).

As for the low-end Apple desktop and portable line, I could see the newer G4 (and G3) CPUs being used for some time to come.

Anyway, it's just my $0.02. I didn't mean to offend anyone.

I like your point. But more of your authority is lost with each reference to the "Xserver". It's Xserve. (sorry for off-topic-ness)

The problem most of us are having is that a 167 Mhz bus fits with the 1.25 Ghz and 1.33 Ghz, however it does not with the 1.1 Ghz. It would appear that only a 200 Mhz bus would fit with the 1.1 Ghz, since 100 Mhz is very unlikely (and a multiplier of 11x... that's a lot.)

[DHagan4755]

daveL,

Good post. Right on.

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by k2k koos
Oh and what about Panther, is that backwards compatible with 32 bit systems, as these PB's wont be 64 bit yet.:)

There was no announcement at WWDC that said that Panther would be a true 64-bit O/S, was there?

Lots of ambiguous stuff about "optimized for G5", but no "64-bit porting" sessions or other clear messages about true 64-bit support.

The Apple Panther page ( http://www.apple.com/macosx/panther/ ) doesn't have the term "64-bit" anywhere. I don't think they'd fail to mention something that significant.

[zarrick]

So the new powerbooks will have a moto chip # 7457.

My question is this: what chip # do the current powerbooks sport, and does a new chip mean that the same clock speed is faster, or does it just enable a computer to reach a higher clock speed?

And, even though the new pbs will be undoubtedly (if that is a word) awesome, how can one justify buying one with '3 ghz powermacs' g5 powebooks (probably with all-new case designs) set to arrive within 12 months. Even at 1.4 ghz, the new Al books will start to seem sluggish within 24 months.

Zach

[ZildjianKX]

Originally posted by zarrick
So the new powerbooks will have a moto chip # 7457.

My question is this: what chip # do the current powerbooks sport, and does a new chip mean that the same clock speed is faster, or does it just enable a computer to reach a higher clock speed?

And, even though the new pbs will be undoubtedly (if that is a word) awesome, how can one justify buying one with '3 ghz powermacs' g5 powebooks (probably with all-new case designs) set to arrive within 12 months. Even at 1.4 ghz, the new Al books will start to seem sluggish within 24 months.

Zach

7455 I believe is the current processor in G4 powerbooks, and the 1.3 GHz is suppose to be 40% faster than the 1 GHz, so clock-for-clock that would make it faster.

And about your 2nd point... its hard to justify a G4 powerbook now period...

[WasteGate]

Originally posted by Lyle
Since I am "this close" to just going ahead and buying the current 1GHz TiBook, a better scenario would be an announcement now -- even if the shipping date is in August or September. But I suppose Apple's not going to pull an (Adam) Osbourne on us ;)

Wait ! ! !

Havn't you heard.... the new PowerBooks are coming soon...... :rolleyes:

[tizza]

if the new* 12'' has L3 cache, > 1GHz speed and backlit keys I AM BUYING!!!

*assuming it comes sometime before Christmas ;)

[Orome]

Bottom line: I'll believe it when I see it...

[merges]

Originally posted by beefcake
Great, I need to make a purchase by the beginning of next month for school, excellent timing Apple.

WTF? Then buy a computer at the beginning of next month for school.

What's with the whining? You could just go on forever not buying anything, perpetually waiting for the next PowerBook, the next t-shirt, the next iron, the next Hyundai, the next orange juice...

[Lord Bodak]

Originally posted by tizza
if the new* 12'' has L3 cache, > 1GHz speed and backlit keys I AM BUYING!!!

*assuming it comes sometime before Christmas ;)

Is there a way to turn off backlit keys? Cause I'd rather not have them eating my battery :)

[ralphh]

Originally posted by k2k koos
(snip)

Oh and what about Panther, is that backwards compatible with 32 bit systems, as these PB's wont be 64 bit yet.:)

(snip)

Panther is apparently going to be semi-64 bits. The entire address space of the G5s will be accessible to the OS, but any one process cannot access more than 4 GB (32 bits).

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by ralphh
Panther is apparently going to be semi-64 bits. The entire address space of the G5s will be accessible to the OS, but any one process cannot access more than 4 GB (32 bits).

Sorry, but that's "32-bits", not "semi 64-bits".

32-bit Windows and Linux support 64 GiB of RAM (36-bit physical addressing) on today's 32-bit Pentium chips, and nobody claims anything about it being more than 32-bits. (Check the HP xw8000 Xeon workstation, up the 12 GiB of RAM today (http://www.hp.com/workstations/ia32/xw8000/).

30 years ago 16-bit PDP-11s supported more than 16-bits of physical RAM, and nobody claimed anything more than a 16-bit CPU and operating system with extended physical addressing.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by Lord Bodak
Is there a way to turn off backlit keys? Cause I'd rather not have them eating my battery :)

Panther will have an item under Energy Saver in System Preferences for this.

[beefcake]

Originally posted by merges
WTF? Then buy a computer at the beginning of next month for school.

What's with the whining? You could just go on forever not buying anything, perpetually waiting for the next PowerBook, the next t-shirt, the next iron, the next Hyundai, the next orange juice...
Hey, let's not get out of line here. I would never buy a Hyundai, old or new.

[wizard]

Semagol (sp?) by all appearances is using and extended address space, what Panther is doing is up in the air at the moment. I kinda wish that Apple would come clean on what Panther will be implementing. The reality is that the system is using more than 32 bits of address lines so it is more that a 32 bit machine.

I beg to differ with you on the extended addressing used in Windows and Linux, some time ago I did see an add for a system touting extended addressing. If a machine supports 36 bit addressing then it is reasonable to claim that. Now the claim is very specific, it does not imply anything other than 32 bit hardware.

The issue with the G5 is a bit differrent. Here you have a 64 bit CPU that is mapping 32 bit processes in a memory area greater than 32 bits addressable. So there can be an arguement made that the system is more than 32 bits but not yet fully 64 bits. "Semi" may not be an accurate way to describe the facility but it is not that bad either. Until we have a better understanding of what Panther will be doing "semi" is as good as anything else. I will have to dig into this a bit farther but I don't think what Apple is doing is comparable to extended addressing.

Dave

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Sorry, but that's "32-bits", not "semi 64-bits".

32-bit Windows and Linux support 64 GiB of RAM (36-bit physical addressing) on today's 32-bit Pentium chips, and nobody claims anything about it being more than 32-bits. (Check the HP xw8000 Xeon workstation, up the 12 GiB of RAM today (http://www.hp.com/workstations/ia32/xw8000/).

30 years ago 16-bit PDP-11s supported more than 16-bits of physical RAM, and nobody claimed anything more than a 16-bit CPU and operating system with extended physical addressing.

[Zuckuss]

Originally posted by vniow
That's exactly why I'm waiting for a new Powerbook.

I'm with you, I need that 15" al p-book for graphic design classes in the fall. I'm getting sick of all these unreliable rumors but that sleek new machine will be worth the wait, methinks.

[wizard]

Well some suspect that they will have the 7457, most of us have no idea. Hell some of us are in New York, not exactly the center of the computer world.

There are several reasons to suspect that the 7457 will be used in some PowerBooks. One is the power usage, the G5 comes with a bunch of power hungry support chips which needs to be addressed. By the way I'm sure Apple is addressing that issue right now.

Another issue is performance, slowing a G5 system down enough to function in a laptop might not give us a performance advantage over an up rated G4.

I suspect that it will be awhile until we see a 3GHz G5 PowerBook, but yes when it arrives the old machines will seem sluggish. But that would be the case now id Apple came out with a significantly improved PowerBook.

One should not underestimate the G4, it is good processor design stuck in a poor manufacturing house. A couple of improvements will allow it to remain competitive for a long time. The things that the G5 does well are valid for a laptop, but every indication at the moment is that the G5 would also be disadvantaged due to power usage. Mind you I'm not talking about the G5 descreetly but the system as a whole. The G5 would need a "Laptop" chipset, it is a bit up in the air as to where Apple stands with this chipset.

My suspicion is that Apple will for a while have two sets of PowerBooks available. One will be powered by a G4 the other by a G5. The caveat is that this is all bull and Apple could have a chip set to go that is outstanding in its power usage for the G5.

Dave

Originally posted by zarrick
So the new powerbooks will have a moto chip # 7457.

My question is this: what chip # do the current powerbooks sport, and does a new chip mean that the same clock speed is faster, or does it just enable a computer to reach a higher clock speed?

And, even though the new pbs will be undoubtedly (if that is a word) awesome, how can one justify buying one with '3 ghz powermacs' g5 powebooks (probably with all-new case designs) set to arrive within 12 months. Even at 1.4 ghz, the new Al books will start to seem sluggish within 24 months.

Zach

[wizard]

You are making an assumption that a G5 at 1.2 GHZ will dramticaly out perform a G4 at the same speed or slightly faster. There is reason to believe that this isn't the case. Further is motorola has the new G4's running at 1.6 GHz than I don't see the G5 being competitive in a laptop at all. At least in the sense of battery run time which is one of Apples bigger selling points.

The biggest reason I can see for the G5 in a laptop is greater than 32 bit memory addressing. You might also get better floating point operation. Do remember thought that you slow down the 970's I/O bus to go to 1.2 GHz, a slow memory bus would hurt this processor big time. My thinking is that the only way that a G5 would be practical in a laptop would be to introduce it with a speed of at least 1.6 GHz.

Dave


Originally posted by Phinius
The current production 970 (G5) has low enough power use for a PowerBook if its run at 1.2 GHz on low voltage. However Apple would be restricted to using only the 1.2 GHz G5 due to the higher MHz G5s requiring heatsinks that would make them too thick for the thin PowerBooks cases. So if Apple put a 1.2 GHz G5 in PowerBooks this August then there could not be another speed upgrade for PowerBooks until the G5 moves to a smaller process in the second half of 2004. So Apple quite possibly decided to give the PowerBooks another G4 speed upgrade this August and then the 1.2 GHz G5 in January and finally moving it to as high as 1.7 GHz on a smaller process size in July of 2004. The reason a G5 PowerBook could jump from 1.2 GHz to 1.7 GHz is due about a 60% drop in power use when the G5 is made on a 90-nm process.

Doing this Apple is able to refresh the PowerBook speeds more frequently which keeps sales from steadily falling over a 12 month period.

[jamdr]

Wouldn't it be a better idea to buy a CURRENT PowerBook G4, such as a 15" 1Ghz? Think about it. You are getting all of the added features of a high-end 15", like the airport card, the extra RAM and video memory, a bigger hard drive, and most importantly the SuperDrive, but you would only be paying $2300 if you are a student. Next month, that $2300 is going to buy you the new lower-end PowerBook 15", which may have a slightly faster processor, probably at 1.1Ghz, but won't include airport or the SuperDrive, or anywhere near as much memory. Is that really worth it? That airport card is $100, the extra memory is probably another $100, and you wouldn't be able to burn DVDs. The only thing you'd get for waiting is an imperceptible speed increase. At this point, and for the next few years, airport extreme and FireWire 800 offer no real advantage over their predecessors because nothing takes advantage of them. I say, buy up those 1Ghz TiBook before they disappear!

[Analog Kid]

[edit:] ignore this rant and read Wizard's posts... He was much calmer in his delivery...

Originally posted by Nemesis
G5 is fabricated on 130 nm process, uses lower voltage and is better integrated than G4. Not to mention 800, 900 or 1GHz buses. 1.2 GHz G5 iz cooler than G4 at the same tact.
But I think Apple is keeping their mouth shut about this to silence all rumours about G5 laptops. Otherwise, their laptop sales would go down the drain. I think they're to be introduced at SF Expo, January 2004, and available somewhere in February/March 2004.

I'm going to keep repeating this until the misinformation dies or someone proves me wrong:

The G5 system is not lower power than the current G4 and certainly not lower power than the shrunk G4 described in this rumor thread.

There were early rumors that the .13µm G5 CPU chip may pull comparable power to the .18µm G4 CPU chip but even those are in question now.

And that doesn't even touch on the system ASIC running wide, near GHz busses or the faster memories.

Yes, you could scale those down a bit, but the G5 has no L3 cache (and no support for one), so it would make the G4 bottleneck look trivial.

Now the G4 has been shrunk to .13µm with other process enhancements to reduce power consumption.

We are seeing Apple return to a normal productline where the power supply and heat dissipation capabilities of a desktop will allow it to run faster CPUs than the somewhat compromised performance of even "desktop replacement" laptops.

We won't see a G5 in a laptop at least until it gets shrunk and pulls the memory controller inside, and I'd guess they need to make more changes than that to the internal processing units and possibly add an L3 cache.

I'm not much of a Mot fan, but the G4 is a pretty darn good portable CPU. I think we'll see them in use for a while. For the last year or more we've been running desktops based on laptop processors-- not the other way around.

My main reason for repeating this point over and over is I get the feeling that people are setting unrealistic expectations for the Powerbook line and they're too hung up on the G5 moniker.

[jbomber]

Originally posted by Freg3000
I am beginning to tune these rumors out. It is getting really sad. End of August does seem too late for college kids. What a shame.

Yeah. A lot of people are trying to make light of this, but on this board alone there are scores of students who seem to be holding out as long as they can for Apple to put out a machine which is woefully overdue. When it doesn't come out in the next 2 weeks or so, Apple will see the error of its ways with further slumping sales as those would-be buyers end up with other machines.

[Analog Kid]

Originally posted by wizard
The biggest reason I can see for the G5 in a laptop is greater than 32 bit memory addressing. You might also get better floating point operation.

Do you think a laptop would benefit much from 64bit memory addressing? It's gonna be a while before you can pack 8GB into a laptop...

And the memory is pretty power hungry itself.

Maybe in the 17"...

[Phinius]

Originally posted by daveL
I don't get this comment. There will not be, in my opinion, another generation of G4 Xservers. Whatever you're smokin', I'd like some.

If Motorola is going to make a dual-cpu G4 chip, then it is intended for Apple. If Apple only uses it in portables or a few desktops, then it is much less likely that Motorola would be interested in making it due to a lower return on investment.

Why would Apple continue to produce G4 Xservers in light of the G5?

Easy, the G4 costs a lot less than the G5. If you'll notice Dell still sells a Pentium III equipped server. If people want to buy it, then Apple will make it. It's as simple as that.

There is no reason for Apple to maintain a low-end Xserver line that continues to use the G4; it's all about speed in the Xserver, IMO.

It's about price/performance for servers and not just performance. If it was just about performance then UNIX servers would be the vast majority of servers sales. As it is, 1-2 processor Xeon and Pentium servers are 90% of total server sales.

If Motorola makes a dual-cpu G4 chip then Apple could put 4 G4s in a 1U server box quite easily. That would be a very competitive performance/price server.

I don't know what Apple intends to do with a dual-cpu G4 chip, but to assume that nothing but a G5 processor in a server will do is simply ludicrous. That simply goes against what the vast majority of server sales are right now.

As for the low-end Apple desktop and portable line, I could see the newer G4 (and G3) CPUs being used for some time to come.

I doubt that Apple wants to spread the G5 throughout the entire Mac line anytime soon. That would make the much higher prices of the pro models less desirable. This could change when the G5 is moved to a smaller process and Apple has a wider range of speeds for the G5, but then again that looks less likely since Motorola has announced plans to make a dual-cpu G4. There really is no customer for a dual-cpu G4 outside of Apple simply because a dual-core G4 would use too much watts for the embedded market.

[jbomber]

how many ways can one say it?

1) no G5s in the laptop line for a very long time.

2) apple's not throwing away the G4 for a very long time.

3) aluminum powerbooks will never see the light of day. :) (ok, i made that one up, but it really feels like it. keep teasing me apple...)

[Phinius]

Originally posted by wizard
You are making an assumption that a G5 at 1.2 GHZ will dramticaly out perform a G4 at the same speed or slightly faster.

No I'm not. It's obvious that most people are reacting to the G5 like it is several times faster than a G4. Apple would likely be able to pickup on that. It's very likely that a G5 will replace a G4 in PowerBooks as soon as January because of the mystic that is building for the G5.

Further is motorola has the new G4's running at 1.6 GHz than I don't see the G5 being competitive in a laptop at all.

Apple can get a 1.33 GHz 130-nm G4 in a notebook computer quite easily. The G5 on a 130-nm process is probably limited to 1.2 GHz for notebook use.

When the G5 and G4 move to the smaller 90-nm process in the middle of 2004, then a G4 will again go to a higher frequency than the G5 for the same watt use. But, it's doubtful that Apple will continue to use a G4 for the PowerBook line due to Apple wanting to charge a premium over the consumer lines.

The biggest reason I can see for the G5 in a laptop is greater than 32 bit memory addressing.

The biggest reasons for putting a G5 in a laptop are Mac users perceptions that it is a billion times faster than those outdaed, pokey G4s from that horrible Motorola company and also Apple needs something to set the PowerBook line apart from the consumer models so that they can charge a much higher price.

You might also get better floating point operation. Do remember thought that you slow down the 970's I/O bus to go to 1.2 GHz, a slow memory bus would hurt this processor big time.

Motorola is going to make some dramatic improvements to the G4s I/O bus and chip interconnects in the next year, but it won't effect the fact that the vast majority of Mac users believe that the G5 is God's gift to Appledom.

I personally believe that Apple will try to hold the frequency of the G4 in a PowerBook to 1.33 GHz so that when the G5 is put into a PowerBook at 1.2 GHz in January it won't seem like a big drop in frequency.

Also if the PowerBooks start at 1.1 GHz with a 166 Ghz bus in August, then that allows the iBooks to move to 1 GHz and perhaps a 200 MHz bus. Adding a L3 cache to the lowend PowerBook would probably offset the faster bus speed of the iBooks in most people's eyes.

My thinking is that the only way that a G5 would be practical in a laptop would be to introduce it with a speed of at least 1.6 Ghz

I'm betting 1.2 GHz G5 in a PowerBook in January and then a update when the G5 moves to a smaller process size about six months later. It really doesn't matter how fast the G5 is compared to a G4 at a given frequency. The fact is people are drolling over the G5 and will pay for it in a PowerBook no matter what speed it runs at.

[Kermit]

Originally posted by Catfish_Man
Moto has ALREADY ANNOUNCED ON THEIR WEBSITE what it supports: 167MHz SDR

What is up with Motorola? DDR-memory have been available and standard in computers now for how long? That's right. Years! And yet they won't bother implementing proper support for it. Unbelievable. If Motorola releases that processor with an outdated non-DDR-supported FSB then I am not buying a Powerbook as long as there is still a Motorolean processor in it. It certainly looks as though I won't be switching to a Mac anytime soon...

[panphage]

Originally posted by Phinius
Easy, the G4 costs a lot less than the G5. If you'll notice Dell still sells a Pentium III equipped server. If people want to buy it, then Apple will make it. It's as simple as that.

Is the price confirmed? I have read here more than once that the 970 was *less* expensive than the G4. The 970s can't cost significantly more or else the new machines would be at higher prices.

Originally posted by Phinius
It's about price/performance for servers and not just performance. If it was just about performance then UNIX servers would be the vast majority of servers sales. As it is, 1-2 processor Xeon and Pentium servers are 90% of total server sales.

Umm...you can put Unix on a Xeon just fine. Maybe you want to clarify that a bit. Are we talking about Sparcs and Alphas, that is, big chips with proprietary Unixes? Yes, you want the best performance and stability you can get *at your pricepoint*. But, you are not going to run a mission-critical Oracle DB for a multi-million dollar company on some p3 servers because you can get them for less than an Ultrasparc.

Originally posted by Phinius
I don't know what Apple intends to do with a dual-cpu G4 chip, but to assume that nothing but a G5 processor in a server will do is simply ludicrous. That simply goes against what the vast majority of server sales are right now.

Servers like bandwidth and the G5 has a deal more of it than the G4. Also note that G5s get a greater boost from dual processors. The estimates I've read are G5 gaining 90% performance from adding a second proc while the G4 gains 40%. (This is off the cuff AND uncited, so please don't tar and feather me.) Bandwidth and better multi-processor gains = smarter choice for a server box. BUT, that assumes that reasonable prices on 970s from IBM is true.

And of course you are correct, statements of absolute necessity are NEVER, EVER wise. :)

[CrackedButter]

Faster, sooner, now is all i can say.

Its sad that they are taking their time on these updates while x86 laptops are getting more and more advanced each week.

[drax02]

I am needing to make an informed decision before school, and was wondering if you more knowledable folks could help me out.

What the chances are of any update coming before the end of August and what price drops might be experienced on the current 12" when this update comes about?

Thanks

[slightly]

This must be a new definition of the word "student" that I wasn't previously aware of. When the fastest possible PowerBook model becomes a mandatory purchase for students, I'll eat my words. Until then, you're *students*. Spend your money on beer and loose women like we had to.

There are people in here complaining that, unless Apple stops disrespecting them and gives them what they demand before the first week of college, they'll up and buy a Dell. Well:

1. Apple is not "disrespecting" you. You've got yourselves worked up about a *rumour*, not a promise from Apple, and because Apple didn't deliver on it, you're getting snitty.

2. Not getting a Mac in a certain week seems a very strange reason to switch. Enjoy your Windows world for the next four years, students.

3. Take it from someone who's *been* to college. Nobody is going to sneer at you, beat you up, call you names, dock your grades, muss up your hair, give you a wedgie, or otherwise put you into the loser group just because you don't have the top-of-the-line smells-like-new 10-second-old PowerBook. If you already own a computer (which, by the sounds of things, you do), take that. Use it for a week or so, and then, if Apple brings out a laptop that you somehow have the disposable income for, buy one.

If you "only" have a desktop, and need something to take notes with for a few days, can I recommend pen and paper? They're highly portable, with a great clean user interface, and built-in handwriting recognition. I can't guarantee DDR support though.

I also refer the right honourable gentlemen to the very first post I made on these forums.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22177



Matt

[rjwill246]

According to MacBidouille, Apple is wrestling with the problem of what to do with the iBooks and is seriously considering letting them go... ending all G3 lines. The 12" PB would be the entry level laptop. posted today.
Also they claim that FWB has fired its CEO and that the new CEO is taking a hard look at recent claims by FWB.. hinting at the RealPC claims, I guess. No mention of it yet on FWB website.

[wizard]

Well that is a good question. I'm sure that there are people that could make use of larger memory systems. That doesn't mean 8GB, even a fully addressable range of 4GB would help. That would be easly done with a 64 bit processor, I'm not sure if it could be done with a G4.

Yes it would be power hungry, but not nearly as much as paging to disk. Near term the largest memory system we are likely to have on a laptop would be 2GB, last I knew even this was not a possibility on the laptops currently in production. Please understand though that I just recently got into the market, so some of my information on the current Powerbooks is stale.

dave


Originally posted by Analog Kid
Do you think a laptop would benefit much from 64bit memory addressing? It's gonna be a while before you can pack 8GB into a laptop...

And the memory is pretty power hungry itself.

Maybe in the 17"...

[illumin8]

Originally posted by WM.
DDR400 is almost certain with a 200 MHz FSB, of course;
Why do you think this is certain? As many others in this thread have already said, a 200 mhz. FSB has no way of fully utilizing DDR400 memory, let alone DDR333 memory. Why wouldn't Apple just use DDR333 memory instead? There's no way a small FSB of 200 could fully utilize it anyway.

[RichP]

Originally posted by slightly

If you "only" have a desktop, and need something to take notes with for a few days, can I recommend pen and paper? They're highly portable, with a great clean user interface, and built-in handwriting recognition. I can't guarantee DDR support though.

Matt

:D ROTFL! :D

The rumormill is making none of us think straight. People threaten Apple with Dell, but Dell updates and changes things every week, and I could be wrong, but if were looking to PC rumors, we would have the same information, or lack thereof, regarding what will be the new machine on the block. We know motorola has newer G4s, and they are being delivered Q3; they are obviously destined for Apple, and destined to go into powerbooks. There are no suprises here, we know whats coming, we just dont know the exact hour. However, as each week passes, we get closer to something happening (thats a good master-of-the-obvious statement)

[illumin8]

Originally posted by Kermit
What is up with Motorola? DDR-memory have been available and standard in computers now for how long? That's right. Years! And yet they won't bother implementing proper support for it. Unbelievable. If Motorola releases that processor with an outdated non-DDR-supported FSB then I am not buying a Powerbook as long as there is still a Motorolean processor in it. It certainly looks as though I won't be switching to a Mac anytime soon...
If you feel so strongly that this is one of those must have features, why not just wait until the G5 powerbooks are out next year and have proper PC3200 memory support?

But there is one thing you should think about: If you want to have longer batter life, the speed of your front side bus has a direct correlation to the life of your battery. If you don't believe me, just read an article at Anandtech about the new Intel Centrino notebooks (you know, the low megahertz ones that start at 1.3ghz up to 1.6ghz). They have a variable speed FSB that actually dynamically lowers itself during periods of low CPU activity in order to save battery life.

On a desktop PC, sure give me all 800 mhz. or 1 ghz. FSB that you've got, but on a mobile PC, if you want any more than 2 hours of battery life, you might want to drop your FSB down to 167 or 200 mhz. just so you don't have to be tethered to a wall outlet all the time.

Cheers.

[wizard]

Originally posted by Phinius


No I'm not. It's obvious that most people are reacting to the G5 like it is several times faster than a G4. Apple would likely be able to pickup on that. It's very likely that a G5 will replace a G4 in PowerBooks as soon as January because of the mystic that is building for the G5.



We may very well see the 970's in laptops soon, but it if it happens it will be primarily for marketing reasons. I.E. explotation of the unknowing. There is no mystic for the G5, people are waiting patiently to get a handle on the performance of the systems, or at least they should be.

Apple can get a 1.33 GHz 130-nm G4 in a notebook computer quite easily. The G5 on a 130-nm process is probably limited to 1.2 GHz for notebook use.

When the G5 and G4 move to the smaller 90-nm process in the middle of 2004, then a G4 will again go to a higher frequency than the G5 for the same watt use. But, it's doubtful that Apple will continue to use a G4 for the PowerBook line due to Apple wanting to charge a premium over the consumer lines.

Apple is currently running G3's on their consumer line laptops. Even if they updated these to G4s at 1GHz they could easly distinquish the pro line via much faster G4s and better video sub systems.

It would not serve Apples interest to offer a castrated PowerBook line just so they can claim to have a 970 in it.




The biggest reasons for putting a G5 in a laptop are Mac users perceptions that it is a billion times faster than those outdaed, pokey G4s from that horrible Motorola company and also Apple needs something to set the PowerBook line apart from the consumer models so that they can charge a much higher price.

The G4 has never scalled well, that does not mean by any means that it is pokey. If motorola can deliver a much faster G4 then Apple will remain competitve with it. The G5 has everything it needs to go into a laptop, but we have not yet seen an indication that Apple has the supporting system ready to go. Providing a low power SYSTEM, is the key otherwise Apple is better off with the G4.

The reality is that higher integration on either processor is really where the future PowerBook processors need to go. Specifically a built in memory controller and PCI controller. These are the things that would drive design ins on future machines.

Motorola is going to make some dramatic improvements to the G4s I/O bus and chip interconnects in the next year, but it won't effect the fact that the vast majority of Mac users believe that the G5 is God's gift to Appledom.

I personally believe that Apple will try to hold the frequency of the G4 in a PowerBook to 1.33 GHz so that when the G5 is put into a PowerBook at 1.2 GHz in January it won't seem like a big drop in frequency.


They may very well try to do something like this, but to be perfectly honest that is what drove customers away in the past. In a way though you are supporting my previous statements, that a G4 could easly outperform a G5 in a laptop.

As a side note if anyone has read ARS's lastest bit of info on the G5, it is very apparent that Apple and IBM are investing alot of money and energy into follow on processors. The IBM reps specifically skirted questions related to more integrated G5's, so it is completely possible that portable optimized G5's are in the works. Speculation of course, but I really don't see a competitve G5 laptop with out high frequency operation.


Also if the PowerBooks start at 1.1 GHz with a 166 Ghz bus in August, then that allows the iBooks to move to 1 GHz and perhaps a 200 MHz bus. Adding a L3 cache to the lowend PowerBook would probably offset the faster bus speed of the iBooks in most people's eyes.



I'm betting 1.2 GHz G5 in a PowerBook in January and then a update when the G5 moves to a smaller process size about six months later. It really doesn't matter how fast the G5 is compared to a G4 at a given frequency. The fact is people are drolling over the G5 and will pay for it in a PowerBook no matter what speed it runs at.

January is a possibility, but I don't think that this would mean that the G4 PowerBooks would go away. Energy effiecent PowerBooks are one of Apples greatest selling features - long battery life does attrack customers.

Unless Apple and IBM a further along with enhanced 970's than suspected, I do not believe that that laptop will be a long lived model. It is likely to be a interim machine to hold the slot until a much better implementation can be produced. When that better implementation comes you will then see the G4 Powerbooks disappear.

Dave

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by wizard
We may very well see the 970's in laptops soon, but it if it happens it will be primarily for marketing reasons. I.E. explotation of the unknowing.

You're a bit harsh here.

The Pentium 4 laptops with the full-power desktop chips are big, heavy, and have relatively short battery life.

They're also selling very well.

Some people value power over portability. They aren't the road warriors who spend their time in airports, they're people who carry a machine back and forth between the office and home.

They're people who want to hide the computer at home, yet have a full-power system. (A P4 laptop in the bookshelf or in a drawer has more minimalist elegance than any flavor of desktop - even one that looks like a cross between a desklamp and a makeup mirror.)

Apple could address this market with a G5 laptop today.

[beefcake]

Originally posted by jamdr
Wouldn't it be a better idea to buy a CURRENT PowerBook G4, such as a 15" 1Ghz? Think about it. You are getting all of the added features of a high-end 15", like the airport card, the extra RAM and video memory, a bigger hard drive, and most importantly the SuperDrive, but you would only be paying $2300 if you are a student. Next month, that $2300 is going to buy you the new lower-end PowerBook 15", which may have a slightly faster processor, probably at 1.1Ghz, but won't include airport or the SuperDrive, or anywhere near as much memory. Is that really worth it? That airport card is $100, the extra memory is probably another $100, and you wouldn't be able to burn DVDs. The only thing you'd get for waiting is an imperceptible speed increase. At this point, and for the next few years, airport extreme and FireWire 800 offer no real advantage over their predecessors because nothing takes advantage of them. I say, buy up those 1Ghz TiBook before they disappear!
Good point. Like others, I'm guilty of getting caught up in rumors, but now that I think about it, why do I want to inconvenience my life to break the bank on a slightly faster machine?

[davida]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
(A P4 laptop in the bookshelf or in a drawer has more minimalist elegance than any flavor of desktop - even one that looks like a cross between a desklamp and a makeup mirror.)

Links, facts, papers, benchmark results please.......

Or is that statement your personal opinion?

:p

[jaedreth]

Because even if you decide you agree (with the opinion) that it is good economics to buy the current model with the edu discount, you will still kick yourself once the new models ship, because they're newer, and they're likely to have something that these models don't have (whether you'd make use of them or not).

Simply human habit. (I think human nature is a myth, but that's another topic for elsewhere.)

Computer powerusers, geeks, etc. are like Kenders.

Oooh, shiny, pretty, new features. I *want*.

So if you do decide to go with the insanely great deal going on for edu, just make a mental note of what your gut response is going to be when you see the new Powerbooks, tell yourself it's ok, and go out and treat yourself to chocolate ice cream or something...

Wanting the top of the line isn't necessarily an ego thing, but rather an emotional type "I want" throwback from childhood, which we should induge ourselves in on occasion.

But it's still a good idea to take a practial look at the economics of the situation.

Jaedreth

[robeddie]

Why is the 12" powerbook unsatisfactory? If you want to play many of the latest games... that's easy.
Try reading the system requirements on the side of the box for unreal tournament 2003. It says any g4 above 700mhz will work... except for the 12" powerbook manufactured in 2003. (This is not a 'laptops just aren't made for games' issue... the 15" g4 and 17" g4 run UT2003 just fine)

I called macsoft for an explanation of exactly why... and was told it basically comes down to one thing... the lack of an L3 cache slows the system down so much... they were not able to achieve reasonable frame rates.
This... despite the fact that the processor speed and video card... in and of themselves... are just fine to run a game like UT2003.
Even Tiger Woods 2003 staggers on the 12" powerbook... (By the way, both games run like silk w/high detail on my g4 933 desktop)

Why Apple crippled one of the 'pro' model laptops by excluding an L3 cache is beyond me. I thought that was only something they would only do to the 'budget' ibook models.

But I also wonder WHY? How much does a 1mb cache cost apple anyway? It must be alot... or that fact that most people don't notice/bitch about it.

Even if Apple updates the powerbook to 1.1 ghz... if it doesn't have that L3 cache... I'll still be suspect of it's real performance abilities.

Rob S.

[panphage]

all I want is a dvi on the 12" powerbook. Oh, and an ATI gpu. And some level 3 cache. But mostly the dvi.

I'd settle for an apple branded vga to adc adaptor retailing at sub $200.

Now I'm tempted by the ti again, it's really not THAT much larger than the 12...but I really really like the look and feel of the aluminum, especially the keyboard. And man, builtin bluetooth is nice.

[beefcake]

jaedreth: Another very good point. However, as was stated earlier in this thread, a newer model will at least be slightly more expensive. Peronally, I'd rather have a gig of ram than a processor that clocks at 100mhz faster.

Still, it will take more than a few ice creams to silence the greedy child inside me that wants a shiny new aluminum PB.

[FriarTuck]

What's going on with Amazon?

Last week they had $100 rebates on the 12 inch Powerbooks I was considering. Today, the Superdrive is no longer stocked and the Combo has no rebate.

[WM.]

Originally posted by illumin8
Why do you think this is certain? As many others in this thread have already said, a 200 mhz. FSB has no way of fully utilizing DDR400 memory, let alone DDR333 memory. Why wouldn't Apple just use DDR333 memory instead? There's no way a small FSB of 200 could fully utilize it anyway.
*blink*

*scratches head*

Well, I guess I say that because it tracks with what Apple has done previously--they went to DDR333 when the FSB went to 167 MHz, instead of staying at DDR266. I would think the same principle works going from 167 to 200 MHz, especially if they use the same chipset (Intrepid). Maybe the chipset requires the same clock speed for RAM and CPU, who knows. I wish we could find out more about the Apple-designed ASICs like Intrepid, U3, K2...but we can't.

I shouldn't say that DDR400 is certain with a 200 MHz FSB, but it seems pretty likely based on what's happened in the past.

FWIW
WM

[chomsky]

Originally posted by panphage


I'd settle for an apple branded vga to adc adaptor retailing at sub $200.



Can someone please explain to me why, besides sheer greed, apple makes their displays with a nonstandard connection and then charges out the ass for a cheap adaptor? @$#*!

Waiting on the updated 17".....

-chomsky

[wizard]

Maybe just a bit harsh, but like some of the first P4 laptops rushed to market a G5 likewise rushed to market could be more of a problem then its worth. I'd rather see Apple take its time and produce a G5 laptop that is reliable, consitantly fast and full featured.

Apple may very well be far down this path already, I simply don't know. What has become apparent is that a 1.2GHz 970 in a laptop is not likely to be an outstanding performer. That doesn't mean that Apple and IBM aren't working to make a G5 laptop, I'm just not convinced that the current 970 will be going in it.

I completely understand the desire for power, but lets face it we don't see a Opteron, Zeon or a Willamette in a laptop. Granted a 970 outclasses all of these but the point is we seem to have this belief that the G4 laptops will suddenly be out classed by a G5 machine. From my perspective a better performing G4 and better power usage will put that thought on hold for a while.

Dave


Originally posted by AidenShaw
You're a bit harsh here.

The Pentium 4 laptops with the full-power desktop chips are big, heavy, and have relatively short battery life.

They're also selling very well.

Some people value power over portability. They aren't the road warriors who spend their time in airports, they're people who carry a machine back and forth between the office and home.

They're people who want to hide the computer at home, yet have a full-power system. (A P4 laptop in the bookshelf or in a drawer has more minimalist elegance than any flavor of desktop - even one that looks like a cross between a desklamp and a makeup mirror.)

Apple could address this market with a G5 laptop today.

[DrGonzo]

Originally posted by beefcake
jaedreth: Another very good point. However, as was stated earlier in this thread, a newer model will at least be slightly more expensive. Peronally, I'd rather have a gig of ram than a processor that clocks at 100mhz faster.

Still, it will take more than a few ice creams to silence the greedy child inside me that wants a shiny new aluminum PB.

TRUE it will be more expensive, and maybe only 100-300mhz faster, but it supposedly will be more efficient w/ power and cooler as well. Personally i like the Al case better than Ti which is another reason i'm waiting.

Also, I'm a college student in graphic design and history, people that think you have to have a laptop right away, what's wrong with you (ESPECIALLY the freshman)? Does your school not have labs that you can use if you absolutely have to use a mac for your assignments? I don't need a new powerbook, but like most people on here, i WANT a new one. Hell for the first week, at least, of school you don't even do anything worthwhile. Like everyone else, I am getting tired of all these rumors.

[yzedf]

Originally posted by beefcake
Good point. Like others, I'm guilty of getting caught up in rumors, but now that I think about it, why do I want to inconvenience my life to break the bank on a slightly faster machine?
For me the 12" is too small (I use a 13" IBM now), the 17" is too big and flimsy feeling (I am not overly gentle), and the 15" is just the right size. Problem is, painted (gentle thing again) shell, junky airport reception, and the flimsy Ti body itself. Maybe I am living a sheltered life with my ultra durable ThinkPad... but I WANT OSX now... and I have sworn not to get another desktop (just made a cheapo PC file server box for $400). This wait and see thing is getting kind of old.... :(

[D*I*S_Frontman]

I am in agreement with AidenShaw on this one. I would rather have a first-class desktop replacement in a laptop that has a shorter portable use time @ maximum power (and the ability to dial it down to save juice) than to have a slower laptop overall. My Pismo's battery is toast, but I haven't bothered to replace it yet--90% of the time I have it docked to my home keyboard/VGA/mouse set-up, and when I go portable I ALWAYS plug it in. Not that big of a deal.

I am looking to upgrade (for obvious reasons, a.k.a. Pismo 400) but I will be content to wait until the G5s in all their glory make it into the 17". I am planning to get into dv production work within the next year, and dual G5 17" would be nice--quick turnaround times and portability for demos and presentations. Having everything with you anywhere you go is a fantastic benefit, IMHO.

It is perfectly reasonable to make a portable that runs on an "either/or" basis, i.e., fast FSB and dual CPUs for 45 minutes, one CPU running @ 1/2 speed and 1/2 FSB speed for 2-2 1/2 hours. My Pismo's fried battery lasts me 7 minutes, fer cryin' out loud! I am not a "frequent flyer" and everywhere else I go seems to be wired for AC. No biggie.

[beefcake]

Originally posted by DrGonzo
TRUE it will be more expensive, and maybe only 100-300mhz faster, but it supposedly will be more efficient w/ power and cooler as well. Personally i like the Al case better than Ti which is another reason i'm waiting.

Also, I'm a college student in graphic design and history, people that think you have to have a laptop right away, what's wrong with you (ESPECIALLY the freshman)? Does your school not have labs that you can use if you absolutely have to use a mac for your assignments? I don't need a new powerbook, but like most people on here, i WANT a new one. Hell for the first week, at least, of school you don't even do anything worthwhile. Like everyone else, I am getting tired of all these rumors.
It's not that I think I'll need a laptop in the first weeks of school, it's purely a convenience issue. I live in New York, I'm going to school in Baltimore. If the new PB comes out at the end of August I'll have to go to school with my sister's old Dell desktop, complete with a monstrous 17" monitor. I have no desire to bring the monitor and tower up to my 3rd floor dorm room just to replace it in a week. Then I have to find somewhere to put the Dell, and bring it back down to the car when I get a chance to visit. It's true that I'm being overly dramatic about moving a simple desktop PC, but if I can avoid it I will. Plus I've never used OSX before and I'd like a little experience before the second or third week of school.

[fpnc]

Originally posted by chomsky
Can someone please explain to me why, besides sheer greed, apple makes their displays with a nonstandard connection and then charges out the ass for a cheap adaptor? @$#*!

Waiting on the updated 17".....

-chomsky

Going from VGA (analog) to digital (DVI and/or ADC) is not a "cheap adaptor" (i.e. it can't be done for very little money).

Furthermore, I think ADC is pretty neat, but I'd agree that it has no possibility of replacing simple DVI as a cross-platform standard.

And to return to topic, why not 1.0 and 1.2GHz 7457-based PowerBooks. That would seem to fit well with a 200MHz FSB (assuming that 200MHz capability is more than just rumor). Also, a 1.2GHz 7457 apparently dissipates about 14 watts of power, while the current 1.0GHz PowerBook consumes 15 watts. So, on power consumption alone a 1.2GHz top end seems like a good fit. Another question might be whether the 7457-based PowerBooks will use a level 3 cache. Perhaps with the increased size of the L2 cache Apple will just drop L3 to save on both cost and power consumption.

My guess is a 1.0GHz 12", 1.0 and 1.2GHz 15", and 1.2GHz 17". And I expect that we will see these well __before__ the end of August.

[DrGonzo]

Originally posted by beefcake
It's not that I think I'll need a laptop in the first weeks of school, it's purely a convenience issue. I live in New York, I'm going to school in Baltimore. If the new PB comes out at the end of August I'll have to go to school with my sister's old Dell desktop, complete with a monstrous 17" monitor. I have no desire to bring the monitor and tower up to my 3rd floor dorm room just to replace it in a week. Then I have to find somewhere to put the Dell, and bring it back down to the car when I get a chance to visit. It's true that I'm being overly dramatic about moving a simple desktop PC, but if I can avoid it I will. Plus I've never used OSX before and I'd like a little experience before the second or third week of school.


Simple solution, DON'T bring the desktop. I don't know what year you are or where you're living, dorms, apt or what not, but my freshman year we all had computers, the dorm had it's own lab, every building at school had at least one lab. Meaning, if you want to or need to use a computer, one is very readily available. Of course if you absolutely can't live w/o a computer for a few weeks in your own residency, then son, i feel sorry for you. If you want to get used to OS X goto the mac labs w/ OS X it's pretty simple.

[panphage]

Originally posted by DrGonzo
Simple solution, DON'T bring the desktop.
<snip>
If you want to get used to OS X goto the mac labs w/ OS X it's pretty simple.

And spend $150 on a powered usb zip 250. Even less on ebay. Under $50 for a powered zip 100. Then you can carry some graphic files around with you. I designed my first three websites w/o even owning a computer. I installed fireworks and dreamweaver on a zip disk, took the drive to the lab, plugged him in and went to town. :D

[Speek]

Hi, I would appreciate some advice from those with more experience as an Apple customer than myself.

Ive recently decided to purchase a PowerBook, specifically the 15'' model. Ive been researching it and have discovered on sites such as this, that an upgrade across the range is soon to be announced.

Im wondering if, when the new models are announced, they will be made available on the Apple store for pre-ordering, leaving the older models available for a limted time. Much like the G5 is currently, with the older G4 available, I assume, for a limited time.

I would like to know whether the prices of the soon-to-be-old PowerBooks are likely to be reduced when the newer models are announced. Or if they will simply remove the older PowerBooks and replace them with the new models once they available for shipping.

Thank you in advance,

Speek

[Analog Kid]

Originally posted by slightly
This must be a new definition of the word "student" that I wasn't previously aware of. When the fastest possible PowerBook model becomes a mandatory purchase for students, I'll eat my words. Until then, you're *students*. Spend your money on beer and loose women like we had to.


I think you're forgetting that there is some selection in the types of folks you're getting exposed to on this board. If they've found this, and they care enough to post, they probably take their tools more seriously than most.

It's like going to a BMW conference and wonder why everyone seems to like German cars so much...

[Analog Kid]

Originally posted by WM.
Well, I guess I say that because it tracks with what Apple has done previously--they went to DDR333 when the FSB went to 167 MHz, instead of staying at DDR266. I would think the same principle works going from 167 to 200 MHz, especially if they use the same chipset (Intrepid). Maybe the chipset requires the same clock speed for RAM and CPU, who knows.

The DDR400 means the data clocks at 400MHz-- the bus transactions are actually 200MHz.

I don't know what happens if you run DDR with a CPU that doesn't support it-- can you get the data on only one clock edge for compatibility or do you have to run the clock at half the rate and eat the data as it's served?

Some of this is probably in the chipset...

Interesting question though-- if I get time I'll start looking for datasheets...

[scifi451]

It is unlikely but here is hoping for an updated 15" on update tuesday.

[Bruja]

IF and when they release this thing, will Panther be a standard load or will they still have OS-9 and Jaguar loaded on them??

[jstef]

Originally posted by Bruja
IF and when they release this thing, will Panther be a standard load or will they still have OS-9 and Jaguar loaded on them??

If the updated Powerbooks are released AFTER Panther is released, then we'll get Panther on them. Actually, any computer Apple sells after Panther is released should include Panther.

If the updated Powerbooks are released BEFORE Panther is released, then you won't be getting it. Maybe Apple would be kind enough to offer some kind of free upgrade, but don't bet on it.

In either case, the PB's won't come with OS9 and they will not be able to boot into OS9. Steve said something along the lines of 'no Apple released past Feb. this year will boot into OS9".

[wakedog]

Posted this in another column, but I just did some looking around to verify it... The Sept Paris conference goes from 16th-20th, the FCE discount ends on the 20th and the "Buy a bundle get a bundle back EDU" discount ends on the 27th... now to me, this means we're going to be waiting a little longer than the end of next month for a PB update. I'm banking on Sept, and hoping for late August, but not holding my breath.

For those that say it's more economical to get a 15" now, I'm planning on waiting until the end of the FCE and Bundle promos, and if they (new PBs) don't show then, I'll buy a 12" superdrive. But I'm hoping that by then I'll be able to get a new 15" (yeah, I'll spend the extra cash over a 12") with a superdrive and FCE for $99. That would be my perfect system right now, as having Firewire 800 (reported in the rumor post) would be great for vid editing, the primary reason I'm going with Mac, since Avid Xpress Dv is just a little too restrictive for what I want to do.

[SignTist]

Originally posted by beefcake
Great, I need to make a purchase by the beginning of next month for school, excellent timing Apple.


macWhispers is a complete failure and waste of time. Why you guys even go there? PJ is a effin moron!

SingTist



EDIT: I clicked the wrong quote button, sorry if that doesn't make sense

[AppleMatt]

Originally posted by jstef
If the updated Powerbooks are released BEFORE Panther is released, then you won't be getting it. Maybe Apple would be kind enough to offer some kind of free upgrade, but don't bet on it.


If Panther is released within 30 days of any machine purchase, you can use the included software update coupons for a free copy of Panther.


In either case, the PB's won't come with OS9 and they will not be able to boot into OS9. Steve said something along the lines of 'no Apple released past Feb. this year will boot into OS9".

It is any 2003 model, however this hasn't been the case (iBooks etc). Also the PowerBooks will come with OS 9, they just won't be able to boot (officially) into OS 9. You still need it for classic, it will be on the Restore DVD as it is now for the 2003 PowerBooks.

AppleMatt

[legacyb4]

Well said, Matt.

Guess times have changed since college in the late 80's?

On a side note, I'd still like to brain the marketing folks at Apple who, for some reason or another, equate the desire for a compact Powerbook (a.k.a. the 12") with a desire for a slower machine (a.k.a. missing the L3).

Just hoping that with the new 15's out, we might see a improved 12" line as far as total package goes.

Cheers.

Originally posted by slightly
This must be a new definition of the word "student" that I wasn't previously aware of. When the fastest possible PowerBook model becomes a mandatory purchase for students, I'll eat my words. Until then, you're *students*. Spend your money on beer and loose women like we had to.

Matt

[crees!]

Originally posted by beefcake
I live in New York, I'm going to school in Baltimore.

I live in Bmore. What school are you going to?

[capitalhood]

Baltimore sucks! go D.C. wooo!! Woooo!! ohh and what! Woooo!!

End drunken football game type jeer... my appologies to all who live in the industrial wasteland up north of the Potomac... seriously i'm sorry... i have my moments... :confused:

[beefcake]

Originally posted by crees!
I live in Bmore. What school are you going to?
Hopkins

[Bruja]

Thanx jstef for the information. :)

[crees!]

Originally posted by capitalhood
Baltimore sucks! go D.C. wooo!! Woooo!! ohh and what! Woooo!!

End drunken football game type jeer... my appologies to all who live in the industrial wasteland up north of the Potomac... seriously i'm sorry... i have my moments... :confused:

Baltimore can suck.. atleast it's not overpriced like DC. BTW, I go to school in DC, more exactly Roslyn in Arlington.... ah the best of both worlds. ;)

[big]

just got confirmation from the Owner at our local Mac store, that Alum 15" powerbooks are shiping into Huntsville....

[orangeclockwork]

any specs on those 15" al powerbooks???

[big]

I was asking for prices on used PB's so i could sell and upgrade, he told me to wait and come down to see the new ones next wook, or so (you know how long it takes for Apple to really do anything) he gave me no specs, I forgot to ask, but hold on and I'll call.....

[crees!]

Originally posted by big
I was asking for prices on used PB's so i could sell and upgrade, he told me to wait and come down to see the new ones next wook, or so (you know how long it takes for Apple to really do anything) he gave me no specs, I forgot to ask, but hold on and I'll call.....

Oh you better be telling the truth and he better be right!!!! :D Let us know asap what he says... oh yippers! (gay elation)

[big]

ok, aparently they have the 17" & 12" aluminum in stock, he said they range from 867 mhz to 1ghz, you can call them at 256-721-1700. he told me the 15" are not in stock, and he forgot what the L cashes were, either 1 or 2 mb (which doesn't tell us much there eh?) then he said to stop asking about them and buy one (just kidding, I said I wish I could stop asking about them and just buy one)

I'm gonna go see them later this week me thinks!

[crees!]

Originally posted by big
ok, aparently they have the 17" & 12" aluminum in stock, he said they range from 867 mhz to 1ghz, you can call them at 256-721-1700. he told me the 15" are not in stock, and he forgot what the L cashes were, either 1 or 2 mb (which doesn't tell us much there eh?) then he said to stop asking about them and buy one (just kidding, I said I wish I could stop asking about them and just buy one)

I'm gonna go see them later this week me thinks!

867Mhz - 1Ghz??? Those are the current models, NOT the new ones. :mad:

[Lyle]

Originally posted by big
ok, aparently they have the 17" & 12" aluminum in stock, he said they range from 867 mhz to 1ghz, you can call them at 256-721-1700. he told me the 15" are not in stock, and he forgot what the L cashes were, either 1 or 2 mb (which doesn't tell us much there eh?) then he said to stop asking about them and buy one (just kidding, I said I wish I could stop asking about them and just buy one).You're talking about the Mac Resource store over close to the mall, right? Perhaps I need to pay them a visit in person to see what's up...

[big]

yeah, you know I designed that store with the Principal here in our firm (all done on Macs of course!)

I thought I'd just give you guys a heads up, not to buy the 12" alum, since the new 15" will be shipping soon (apparently) I was only passing on what they told me....

[orangeclockwork]

yea....those 12 and 17s are the old models....but if he did say 15" alums are coming out...that would be sweet....did he give a date or any inkling as to when they would be coming

[Lyle]

Originally posted by Lyle
You're talking about the Mac Resource store over close to the mall, right? Perhaps I need to pay them a visit in person to see what's up... Just called over to Mac Resource and they deny having said anything about an updated 15" PowerBook arriving in Huntsville anytime soon. The salesperson I spoke to did acknowledge that one of their (non-Apple) suppliers is offering some special incentive(s) to try to move their remaining TiBook inventory (e.g. discounts if you buy a TiBook and monitor together), but this is not a surprise.

There is no doubt that updated PowerBooks are coming soon (for some value of "soon") but it doesn't sound like the fine folks at Mac Resource have any insider information that the rest of us don't. That doesn't mean, however, you shouldn't stop by the store the next time you're in Huntsville -- they're a very friendly and knowledgeable bunch of guys. ;)

[jaedreth]

An anonymous friend of mine sent this to me. Fiction or fact, it's at least something to hope for. Or gripe about. Take your pick.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
iBook

Good Better Best

867MHz G4 867MHz G4 1GHz G4
256MB DDR SDRAM 512MB DDR SDRAM 512MB DDR SDRAM
12.1" TFT LCD 15.2" TFT LCD 15.2" TFT LCD
Combo Drive Combo Drive SuperDrive
NVIDIA GeForce 420 Go NVIDIA GeForce 420 Go NIVIDIA GeForce 420 Go
32MB DDR Video Memory 64MB DDR Video Memory 64MB DDR Video Memory
40GB HD 40GB HD 60GB HD
AE Ready AE Ready AE Built-in
(Airport Extreme, FireWire 2, USB 2, & Bluetooth Standard.)

$1299 $1499 $1799

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PowerBook

Good Better Best

867MHz G4 Dual 867MHz G4 Dual 1GHz G4
512MB DDR SDRAM 512MB DDR SDRAM 1024MB DDR SDRAM
15.2" TFT LCD 17" TFT LCD 17" TFT LCD
Combo Drive Super Drive Super Drive
NVIDIA GeForce 440 NVIDIA GeForce 440 NVIDIA GeForce 440
32MB DDR Video Memory 64MB DDR Video Memory 64MB DDR Video Memory
40GB HD 60GB HD 60GB HD
AE Ready AE Ready AE Built-in
(Airport Extreme, FireWire 2, USB 2, & Bluetooth Standard.)

$1999 $2599 $3299
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jaedreth

(And I had it so nice and pretty when posting, it's all jumbled now.) :(

[AppleMatt]

Dual G4 PowerBooks?

AppleMatt

[jbomber]

somehow i doubt dual processor portables makes much sense as far as battery life is concerned.

"Oh my computer is blazing fast! Too bad by the time i boot photoshop, the battery's dead...."

[chomsky]

Originally posted by jaedreth
An anonymous friend of mine sent this to me. Fiction or fact, it's at least something to hope for. Or gripe about. Take your pick.

:(

These specs are the product of a deranged mind...

I don't think there's any chance of SMP in a powerbook - just too much heat. The tradeoff is not worth it.

Also, there is no mention of a CPU speedup.

Also, it would be sheer idiocy for apple to put old Geforce4 440 chips into the next revision of the powerbooks when other performance laptops are using Geforce FX and ATI 9600.

I wouldn't buy one of these! I want something that can make Quartz extreme scream, and do smooth, full-featured 3d rendering at 1440x900 (assuming that they don't increase the res on the displays, which I personally hope they do not.)

And, even if they do come out tomorrow, I'll wait until I can get Panther bundled with it, I'm not going to pay extra for the latest version of the OS...

..just my highly opinionated $0.02

-chomsky

[big]

perhaps Apple will let you turn off one of the processors.... or severly disable it if you want to, you can already do some of that now if you like... and in the 17" & 15" model, it makes sense, the pro wants a laptop to carry & one hell of a powerful computer

[wizard]

The iBooks sound good but the rest of the stuff listed doesn't sound like much of an improvement over the current product performance wise. They really need to hit 1.6 GHz on the G4 installed in the Power Books. Otherwise one might as well get an iBook.

Thanks
Dave


Originally posted by jaedreth
An anonymous friend of mine sent this to me. Fiction or fact, it's at least something to hope for. Or gripe about. Take your pick.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
iBook

Good Better Best

867MHz G4 867MHz G4 1GHz G4
256MB DDR SDRAM 512MB DDR SDRAM 512MB DDR SDRAM
12.1" TFT LCD 15.2" TFT LCD 15.2" TFT LCD
Combo Drive Combo Drive SuperDrive
NVIDIA GeForce 420 Go NVIDIA GeForce 420 Go NIVIDIA GeForce 420 Go
32MB DDR Video Memory 64MB DDR Video Memory 64MB DDR Video Memory
40GB HD 40GB HD 60GB HD
AE Ready AE Ready AE Built-in
(Airport Extreme, FireWire 2, USB 2, & Bluetooth Standard.)

$1299 $1499 $1799

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PowerBook

Good Better Best

867MHz G4 Dual 867MHz G4 Dual 1GHz G4
512MB DDR SDRAM 512MB DDR SDRAM 1024MB DDR SDRAM
15.2" TFT LCD 17" TFT LCD 17" TFT LCD
Combo Drive Super Drive Super Drive
NVIDIA GeForce 440 NVIDIA GeForce 440 NVIDIA GeForce 440
32MB DDR Video Memory 64MB DDR Video Memory 64MB DDR Video Memory
40GB HD 60GB HD 60GB HD
AE Ready AE Ready AE Built-in
(Airport Extreme, FireWire 2, USB 2, & Bluetooth Standard.)

$1999 $2599 $3299
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jaedreth

(And I had it so nice and pretty when posting, it's all jumbled now.) :(

[wizard]

I tend to agre with most of your opinions except to the issue of dual processors. Depending on how successful Motorola was in reducing heat output SMP could be found in a laptop.

SMP in a laptop could give Apple a marketing edge against Centrino. Much in the same way as the SMP G4 Power MACs gave apple and advantage in contrived bake offs agianst intel boxes. The nice thing with this sort of move is that Intel would take sometime reacting due to bus interface on the Centrino system.

Marketing or not I'd much rather see a much faster G4 in the Power Book line. I'm talking 50% or more faster. Apple is going to need the faster hardware to compete against Intels Centrinos and remain viable against the G5 PMACs.

It is interesting that the IBooks are being configured in what I would consider an ideal manner for a low end knock about portable. Its to bad that Apple isn't offering a more robust machine for the top end of the market.

Dave


Originally posted by chomsky
These specs are the product of a deranged mind...

I don't think there's any chance of SMP in a powerbook - just too much heat. The tradeoff is not worth it.

Also, there is no mention of a CPU speedup.

Also, it would be sheer idiocy for apple to put old Geforce4 440 chips into the next revision of the powerbooks when other performance laptops are using Geforce FX and ATI 9600.

I wouldn't buy one of these! I want something that can make Quartz extreme scream, and do smooth, full-featured 3d rendering at 1440x900 (assuming that they don't increase the res on the displays, which I personally hope they do not.)

And, even if they do come out tomorrow, I'll wait until I can get Panther bundled with it, I'm not going to pay extra for the latest version of the OS...

..just my highly opinionated $0.02

-chomsky

[eric_n_dfw]

I'd probably buy a 12" SuperDrive model today except for 2 things: 128MB on motherboard cripples max RAM - should be 2 slots IMO, and no L3 cache.

BTW, a DP PowerBook would be awesome. Like others have said, just shut down the 2nd proc' when on battery power (as an option of course).

[panphage]

I've heard that Mot is promising 7457's at 1.6ghz to upgrade manufacturers in "august". They had promised them in july, but it got bumped. A quote, "looks like Apple will ship a 1.3ghz PowerBook shortly and it will probl. use the 7447. A 7447 is a 7457 without L3." Would 512k L2 make up for the missing L3?

I would imagine if upgrade manufacturers are getting these chips in a couple weeks, Apple should have had them for a bit already.

[wizard]

I wouldn't be surprised if Apple has a clause in a contract that says something to the effect: not before us. A 7457 operating around 1.6 GHz would be about right considering a die shrink and process improvements, it would also be very competitive with the G5 for a portable processor.

This might be a good sign for a Power Book upgrade before September. I do hope that they get it right as far as the configurations go.

Dave


Originally posted by panphage
I've heard that Mot is promising 7457's at 1.6ghz to upgrade manufacturers in "august". They had promised them in july, but it got bumped. A quote, "looks like Apple will ship a 1.3ghz PowerBook shortly and it will probl. use the 7447. A 7447 is a 7457 without L3." Would 512k L2 make up for the missing L3?

I would imagine if upgrade manufacturers are getting these chips in a couple weeks, Apple should have had them for a bit already.

[jaedreth]

If battery concerns alone were the issue, Apple would never release a dual G4 or a G5 powerbook.

However, Apple is *vigorously* persuing avenues for implimenting Fuel Cells into portables. Doesn't mean this new technology will happen *anytime* soon, but Apple was quoted as saying they were willing to redesign portables for a feasable fuel cell design as opposed to making a fuel cell fit in current battery slots.

So my guess is, we'll see Dual G4 and/or G5 in PowerBooks when the entire line goes fuel cell.

Or perhaps if.

Or perhaps not.

Depends on which rumors you choose to (dis)believe.

Jaedreth

[jaedreth]

I'm not going to count on Powerbooks with the updated Motorola chips until the start of next year, that's how little faith I have in them.

If they do an update before then, I doubt they will have the new chips, and if they do, I will be shocked, though pleasantly so.

Jaedreth

[IMINDELLHELL]

I HAVE BEEN WANTING TO PURCHASE A POWERBOOK FOR A WHILE NOW, AND THE 17" WAS MY CHOICE. HOWEVER, WITH NEW ONES COMING OUT IN 2 MONTHS, WOULD I BE BETTER OFF CAPITOLIZING ON THE REDUCED PRICES AS OF NOW, OR WAITING FOR THE NEW 15" OR 17". AS A STUDENT, I CAN GET A 15" WITH A SUPERDRIVE FOR 2,299. WHAT SHOULD I DO?? BACKTOTHEMAC TOLD ME I WOULD KICK MYSELF IF I DIDNT WAIT, BUT IM NOT SURE. SOMEONE GIVE ME SOME ADVICE. THANKS.

[arn]

Heh....

well, it all depends on how much you need it.

If you need it, and will get real work done on it... buy it now.

If you can wait... well, the PowerBooks haven't been updated for 6-7 months. The 15" hasn't been updated since since 11/02.

The longer you wait, the more likely they will to be updated.

If it's any help -- the updates aren't expected to be "dramatic". Faster processors, maybe a faster bus. No G5.

arn

[pic9809]

i feel your pain. i have recently sold my 15" and am eagerly awaiting an update so i can upgrade to a 17". for the time being, i'm stuck in COMPAQHELL (using an evo n410c from a friend), which i can assure you is even worse than DELLHELL

my .02 on this is that there's no harm in waiting - if/when new models come out, you should be able to get the existing models at an even bigger discount than they are at now. or you can make the decision to pay a premium for the updated model. at the very least, you'll be able to make a more informed decision, knowing exactly what speed bump and new features you'll be paying for

[jbomber]

... even more waiting....

wait....

wait....

wait....

new rumors every week....

every week, soul-crushing disappointment.......

:(

[Six]

i hear that... every tuesday passes and i frown because they havent updated the 15 inch, and the 12 inch is too small for me, and the 17 inch would probably be a menace trying to use in class.

[eric_n_dfw]

Yeah - the 15" is perfect for me except for the missing Airport Extreme. :(

[Lyle]

Originally posted by eric_n_dfw
Yeah - the 15" is perfect for me except for the missing Airport Extreme. :( Awhile back when I asked about options for upgrading the TiBook to 802.11g, someone sent me this link (http://www.lowendmac.com/musings/03/0122.html). I am still awaiting delivery of my TiBook (hopefully one day next week) and so I can't comment on how well (if at all) the cards described in the article work.

[sebaz]

Some ppl are saying that the PB update could be announce at SIGGRAPH 2003..i looked at the schedule, theres no showing of any presentation by apple...so i dunno :(

[jaedreth]

Either powerbook updates are coming tomorrow, Friday the 25th, or they are coming in September during Apple Expo, or they will be a silent rev (meaning nothing special) at some odd time between now and Sept. Siggraph is a silly idea, because as stated, no keynote or anything.

Jaedreth

[eric_n_dfw]

Originally posted by Lyle
Awhile back when I asked about options for upgrading the TiBook to 802.11g, someone sent me this link (http://www.lowendmac.com/musings/03/0122.html). I am still awaiting delivery of my TiBook (hopefully one day next week) and so I can't comment on how well (if at all) the cards described in the article work. Yeah, I've though of doing that, but then I'd have no place to put a FW800 PC Card when I wanted to do so :D

Maybe someone will come up with a combo 802.11g and FireWire 800 PC Card!

[Steven1621]

ah my ideal powerbook:
-1.3 G4
-15 inch screen
-512 DDR
-64 meg ATI
-4X superdrive
-ambient light sensing keyboard
-firewire 800 and usb 2.0
-integreated wi fi, bluetooth

price: $1700 (i can dream, can't i)

[big]

those are some low expectations, you must never be dissapointed in anything....

[eric_n_dfw]

I don't know, that setup sounds pretty sweet to me - what are you wanting, Big?

[AppleMatt]

- Quadruple 2GHz G5 processors each with dedicated 8GiB RAM
- Airport Extreme 2
- Firewire 800+
- USB2.5
- 15.4" OLED 3D display
- iSight technology built-in
- 256MB ATi Graphics card
- Mac OS X 10.5
- 12hr battery life
- 5.1 surround sound (not sure how that'd work)
- Safari that doesn't crash on eBay

Yours for just $999.

Yeah...that's what I'd like to see in a PowerBook this September...good stuff :D

AppleMatt

[daveL]

Originally posted by AppleMatt
- Quadruple 2GHz G5 processors each with dedicated 8GiB RAM
- Airport Extreme 2
- Firewire 800+
- USB2.5
- 15.4" OLED 3D display
- iSight technology built-in
- 256MB ATi Graphics card
- Mac OS X 10.5
- 12hr battery life
- 5.1 surround sound (not sure how that'd work)
- Safari that doesn't crash on eBay

Yours for just $999.

Yeah...that's what I'd like to see in a PowerBook this September...good stuff :D

AppleMatt
What, no hypersuperdrive?

[AppleMatt]

Originally posted by daveL
What, no hypersuperdrive?

I knew I forgot something.

It'd have to be a hypersuperdriveextreme, or I'm just not interested.

AppleMatt

[Bascule]

First off I hope this thread is still alive.

Im currently looking (well not true I've fallen for the Powerbooks and I _am_ going to get one)

Its to replace my Sony C1-MHP. Its a fabulose machine but I no longer commute the distance I used to which means I no longer need something so tiny and would in fact get more use of something bigger.

+ I like the look of the Macs and OS X(typing this from a Sun Ultra 60 running linux)

My question is are we likely to see the Current Powerbooks drop in price when the new models are intruduced (bearing in mind the recent price drops) or will the new version just cost more?

Not sure which model im interesting (im guessing the 17 will be to big) but going to check them out on Saturday. Im pretty sure if I decide on the 15" I'll wait as the newer ones (should be) better but If I decide on the 12" Should I get now?

Will use it for a general wireless house laptop, web surfing email unix development and 'playing' really

Thoughts?

Also silly question but do Apple launch world wide in one go (Im from the UK)

Cheers

[kshkval]

Originally posted by IMINDELLHELL
I HAVE BEEN WANTING TO PURCHASE A POWERBOOK FOR A WHILE NOW, AND THE 17" WAS MY CHOICE. HOWEVER, WITH NEW ONES COMING OUT IN 2 MONTHS, WOULD I BE BETTER OFF CAPITOLIZING ON THE REDUCED PRICES AS OF NOW, OR WAITING FOR THE NEW 15" OR 17". AS A STUDENT, I CAN GET A 15" WITH A SUPERDRIVE FOR 2,299. WHAT SHOULD I DO?? BACKTOTHEMAC TOLD ME I WOULD KICK MYSELF IF I DIDNT WAIT, BUT IM NOT SURE. SOMEONE GIVE ME SOME ADVICE. THANKS.

There weren't any responses to the $ subtext of DellHell's message... I have the same question. I'm a federal employee and can buy a 12 inch PB for $1440. There may be better deals thru the retailers, but if the new PBs expected soon are going to cost the same as they do now, I'll wait. If not, and the price difference is going to be in the $200-300 range, the 12 inch PB has everything I want and more... but I don't want to find out on the morrow that I just paid for something "old" at the same price as something "new."

All you wisened Mac experts, do you think the new powerbooks will cost more than the current line and by how much? I've been tracking Apple's pricing for the last few months and don't know what they usually do w/ prices in these situations... course, I suppose it depends on whether the hardware is real new and rocks or if it's just a "rev," as someone said above.

On the other hand, I've been patiently sharing an iMac with 2 family members for 2 years and am about to go mad, mad, I say. Perhaps I should be looking at the rising costs of mental health care.

[AppleMatt]

Hi Bascule, welcome to the forums.

Apple lauch world-wide usually.
The old machines will drop in price, but will not be available from Apple anymore.
The new machines will most likely cost the same as the current ones when they were introduced.
I'd wait for a 15" (and see if revised 12" come with it) before buying if I were you.

Sorry for brief reply, I have to shoot out.

AppleMatt (from UK also)

[DHagan4755]

Originally posted by jaedreth
Either powerbook updates are coming tomorrow, Friday the 25th, or they are coming in September during Apple Expo, or they will be a silent rev (meaning nothing special) at some odd time between now and Sept. Siggraph is a silly idea, because as stated, no keynote or anything.

Jaedreth Why would they announce them on a Friday? What makes you think that?

[McLaptop]

Why would they announce them on a Friday? What makes you think that?

Top question, dhagan. why friday?

[Bascule]

Originally posted by AppleMatt
Hi Bascule, welcome to the forums.

Apple lauch world-wide usually.
The old machines will drop in price, but will not be available from Apple anymore.
The new machines will most likely cost the same as the current ones when they were introduced.
I'd wait for a 15" (and see if revised 12" come with it) before buying if I were you.

Sorry for brief reply, I have to shoot out.

AppleMatt (from UK also)

Cheers, looks like I'd better be good and have some self control on Saturday then (in fact may be its best if I don't go :+)

Hope the announcment is soon.

[freundt]

hmm...

Ok.

I'm not trolling, however:

If new powerbooks ship in sept. that's ~11 months between updates for the 15".

almost a year.

And everyone is saying there is only going to be a 300mhz jump in speed .

I'm sorry.

I know it isn't Apples fault, but that's just plain sad. Right now I'm trying to decided between a Centrino Notebook or a Powerbook. I know OSX r00x0rz, but consdiering I spend 98% of my computing time inside another program, such as photoshop, freehand, etc.. the OS isn't the largest issue.

And before all the "What do you need a screaming processor for?"
questions pop up, let me just say, I need the speed for 2 years in the future, when I want to run God Knows what --- maybe Photoshop 15 with Fractal Image restoration or something.

So, some of you will tell me to go and buy my Centrino and shut up, some will say the powerbook will do just fine, and the others will agree.

So, what's my point?
I want to switch. I want a powerbook. But I want my money's worth.

Anyways,

Dissapointedly yours,
_f

P.S. I keep trying to justify waiting. To justify the price. But as each week passes, it gets just a little bit harder. *sigh*

[chazmox]

freundt...

take a look at this article comparing the PowerPC to x86 archtecture. It may change your mind about the comparable speed difference. If not, it is still an interesting read...

http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=3997&page=1

[jbomber]

Originally posted by McLaptop
Why would they announce them on a Friday? What makes you think that?

Top question, dhagan. why friday?

yeah, i'd also be interested in hearing that one. why tomorrow?

[sebaz]

Isnt in theory also tomorrow coming out the bluetooth mouse? Could be that the best way to enjoy ur bluetooth mouse is what a brand spanking new 15in Al pbook...

[jaedreth]

Remember the translated rumor from the japanese site saying that we'd have new powerbooks on the 25th? If not, don't worry. It's likely dead wrong.

Jaedreth

[wizard]

Hi freundt;

I agree if we end up only + 300MHz faster that won't be much of an improvement. On the other hand we don't want to jump to conclusions, as a larger internal cache and the GPU could have a considerable impact. Of course no one knows what that configuration will be.

From my perspective the operating system is the issue. I would not consider a Intel based laptop unless it was capable of running Linux. But one has to realize that Linux isn't OS/X.

At this time I can't reasonably reccomend going out and buying a current TiBook, if they do not have a pressing need. On the other hand if you do have the need then by all menas go for it. It is obvious that what ever Apple does the 15" will get a major revamping if for nothing else to bring it up to par with its brothers and sisters.

I find it as sad as you the idividuals that question the need for speed. First there isn't a laptop made that matches a desk top in performance so right there is an issue. Further until software can perform operations as fast as I can think we will not have fast enough hardware.

I'm not going to tell you to buy a centrino, I can only suggest waiting until apple releases the the new Power Books and then make your decision. Its hard to tell whats up, one fear that I have is that Appl is in the same position with the Power Books as they where with the Power Macs - that is no viable processor to rev the designs with. Stagnet!

Dave


Originally posted by freundt
hmm...

Ok.

I'm not trolling, however:

If new powerbooks ship in sept. that's ~11 months between updates for the 15".

almost a year.

And everyone is saying there is only going to be a 300mhz jump in speed .

I'm sorry.

I know it isn't Apples fault, but that's just plain sad. Right now I'm trying to decided between a Centrino Notebook or a Powerbook. I know OSX r00x0rz, but consdiering I spend 98% of my computing time inside another program, such as photoshop, freehand, etc.. the OS isn't the largest issue.

And before all the "What do you need a screaming processor for?"
questions pop up, let me just say, I need the speed for 2 years in the future, when I want to run God Knows what --- maybe Photoshop 15 with Fractal Image restoration or something.

So, some of you will tell me to go and buy my Centrino and shut up, some will say the powerbook will do just fine, and the others will agree.

So, what's my point?
I want to switch. I want a powerbook. But I want my money's worth.

Anyways,

Dissapointedly yours,
_f

P.S. I keep trying to justify waiting. To justify the price. But as each week passes, it gets just a little bit harder. *sigh*

[MCPeck]

Just a scary thought...

We can all agree that Apple has adopted a marketing policy of 'see it now, have it later', right?

I see 2 if's derived from this...

1 if. If apple releases news of a new powerbook line (updates to all or some) either this friday, or next month, or in september, how long would we have to wait to get them in our greedy hands? 2-4 months like previous releases? That puts the physical release near the holidays or even next year! :eek:

2 if. If Apple doesn't say a word, and does a physical release in September which I think will be the case... it throws off the previous Apple marketing scheme and adds to thousands of future threads trying to descern how much acid Jobs is doing and when their G7 PowerMac is comming!

It's a cruel, cruel world of 'ifs'...

Yes, Jobs did acid...... :D

[hasapi]

Originally posted by wizard
Its hard to tell whats up, one fear that I have is that Appl is in the same position with the Power Books as they where with the Power Macs - that is no viable processor to rev the designs with. Stagnet!

Dave

Im thinking the same, the 7457's arent yet available in quantity, and the 970's (including the ASICS) could well be too hot.

Whilst Ill be happy with a 1.33G4, I would much prefer a 1.2G G5. Face it, what confidence do we have in Moto getting the G4 to 2GHz!, precisely, lets keep it for the iBooks and iMacs, the G4 is still a great chip for the consumer range, they just need to scale to 2GHz fairly quickly or else. And get those G5's into the PB's ASAP. :mad:

[herocero]

Originally posted by chazmox
freundt...

take a look at this article comparing the PowerPC to x86 archtecture. It may change your mind about the comparable speed difference. If not, it is still an interesting read...

http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=3997&page=1

great article for us pro-sumers who don't know assembly language :) as for the authors company, they face an uphill battle, definitely a good senior project for a mba student.

well, it's midnight, and the apple store isn't down yet, guess the wait continues . . .:o

[jbomber]

Originally posted by herocero
great article for us pro-sumers who don't know assembly language :) as for the authors company, they face an uphill battle, definitely a good senior project for a mba student.

well, it's midnight, and the apple store isn't down yet, guess the wait continues . . .:o

hmmmm... there are powerbooks in the refurbished bin tho...

[panphage]

Originally posted by freundt
hmm...
And everyone is saying there is only going to be a 300mhz jump in speed .

300mhz speed bump and a doubling of the L2 cache. I've heard that the 30% speed increase (That's pretty good in one go, by the way. Not so great for a whole year, but not a shabby upgrade for a PPC, which isn't all about clock speed anyway) coupled with the new cache results in a 40% performance increase. If that's true, these 7447's should feel downright zippy.


Originally posted by freundt

I'm sorry.

I know it isn't Apples fault, but that's just plain sad. Right now I'm trying to decided between a Centrino Notebook or a Powerbook. I know OSX r00x0rz, but consdiering I spend 98% of my computing time inside another program, such as photoshop, freehand, etc.. the OS isn't the largest issue.

I'd reconsider this. The OS informs the use of any program. I've used Photoshop, Illustrator, Indesign, Fireworks, Dreamweaver, Freehand, and Flash in windows 98, 2000, XP and Mac OSX, as well as Gimp, sodipodi, imagemagick and a host of other software in linux and freebsd. OSX wins. Period. XP has nice memory handling for me, which with photoshop is a definite plus, but man, I'm doing my development work on a 450mhz cube with 512mb sdram and I prefer it to my 1.6ghz XP machine with a gig of ddr ram. I don't know, maybe it's the menubar or something, but I'm already happier working in OSX (4 months experience), even on what should be a real dog of a machine, than I ever was working with windows (5 years experience) or linux (3 years experience.)

Besides, windows has no equivalent to BBedit. And now the Mac OS has all these astounding tools from the unix side that you can get for absolutely no financial outlay, just a bit of mucking about in the terminal. Being able to use imagemagick for batch processing image files AND photoshop on the same box is a godsend.

I know mileage varies, but even XP, the most stable windows OS I've used, crashes like a bastard. And you have to restart for EVERYTHING. Photoshop especially rides an OS hard, and XP just doesn't take it well. Open a few psd's, dreamweaver, and four or five browser windows, and XP starts to buckle badly. OSX creaks a little, but it holds on much better, and when something goes down, that's all that happens, that one program closes. The entire environment doesn't go bonkers.

[iStream]

Originally posted by synthetickittie
I cant speak for all the kids going back to school (college) wanting a new powerbook before we go back but personally Im going to be a computer science major so I DO need the powerbook for the programs Im going to need to use.

Well, from personal experience (I am a senior computer science major) you really don't need a whole lot of processing power for a CS major. The majority of coding you will do is fairly standardized... you will pop open a terminal and code some c++, and use the standard gcc compiler. An iBook would be perfectly fine for this. Also, I doubt you will be doing much of it on your local machine. I'd be willing to bet that you ssh into one of your CS servers, and code within your home directory there. I have a 1GHz powerbook and haven't had any problems, including the software engineering/UML Design programs I've used (Although the standard, Rational Rose for windows, is better than anything available for OS X/Unix). Just thought I'd let ya know :)

[freundt]

Originally posted by panphage
Besides, windows has no equivalent to BBedit. And now the Mac OS has all these astounding tools from the unix side that you can get for absolutely no financial outlay, just a bit of mucking about in the terminal. Being able to use imagemagick for batch processing image files AND photoshop on the same box is a godsend.....


Ok, you got me... Very convincing arguments panphage -- and everyone else who responded...I think I'll happily wait pateintly to see what Apple pulls out of their Paisley Magic Bag.

Thanks for clearig my head.

_f

[Eyewake]

I need some guidance, I'm about to buy a PB but I can really wait a few more months, I just want to know if apple will release something new and if they will drop the prices. Really need to buy a titanium. I already red an article that says that they will not manufacture a G5 PB anytime soon. So is there going to be a 1.1 & 1.3 mhz PB, or what???

Thanks you in advanced for helping me

[chomsky]

After much deliberation, I've decided to shirk the PB G4 for the iBook G3. The realization that the G4 isn't really any faster than the G3 except with Altivec -enhanced applications was the clincher... I don't run Photoshop at all (the Gimp http://gimp.org serves my rare photo-editing needs).

The sleek body designs and larger displays are nice, but let's face it, even with motorola's new speed bump, the G4 CPU design is still crippled by the puny memory bus. I might as well get a similar performing machine (G3) for much less, and then resell it when the PB G5 makes the scene next year.

One might also note that the TiBook has almost nothing the iBook does not, with the exception of the display.

Of course they could surprise us by coming out with a Dual G4 17" machine... I keep hearing this but it's no more believable now than it's ever been. Never mind the battery life issue - How exactly do you think they'll dissapate all that heat? Water-based cooling shipping in consumer laptops is at least another year away. The 17" is borderline as it is, and with an upgraded GPU, there will be no way to get rid of all the excess heat.

No Dual PB for us!

Sorry, apple... it's too little, too late for your PB line this year.

Of course, why should they care? I'm still buying their iBook.(used on ebay).. :p

[beefcake]

Originally posted by Eyewake
I need some guidance, I'm about to buy a PB but I can really wait a few more months, I just want to know if apple will release something new and if they will drop the prices. Really need to buy a titanium. I already red an article that says that they will not manufacture a G5 PB anytime soon. So is there going to be a 1.1 & 1.3 mhz PB, or what???

Thanks you in advanced for helping me
If you can't wait, just buy one now. With the new educational discounts the PB is much cheaper than it has been. Even if Apple miraculously releases and ships this month, prices may rebound back to the original PB price when the TiBooks were first released. Just speculation, but with an edu discount you can get a nice TiBook for $2200. Not a bad deal.

[Eyewake]

Originally posted by chomsky
After much deliberation, I've decided to shirk the PB G4 for the iBook G3. The realization that the G4 isn't really any faster than the G3 except with Altivec -enhanced applications was the clincher... I don't run Photoshop at all (the Gimp http://gimp.org serves my rare photo-editing needs).

The sleek body designs and larger displays are nice, but let's face it, even with motorola's new speed bump, the G4 CPU design is still crippled by the puny memory bus. I might as well get a similar performing machine (G3) for much less, and then resell it when the PB G5 makes the scene next year.

One might also note that the TiBook has almost nothing the iBook does not, with the exception of the display.

Of course they could surprise us by coming out with a Dual G4 17" machine... I keep hearing this but it's no more believable now than it's ever been. Never mind the battery life issue - How exactly do you think they'll dissapate all that heat? Water-based cooling shipping in consumer laptops is at least another year away. The 17" is borderline as it is, and with an upgraded GPU, there will be no way to get rid of all the excess heat.

No Dual PB for us!

Sorry, apple... it's too little, too late for your PB line this year.

Of course, why should they care? I'm still buying their iBook.(used on ebay).. :p

So you are saying that a PB G3 does the job just like a PB T?? for real because if that's the case I just get a G#, now if anybody know , tell me how the G3 Processor handles Flash. I'm a flash designer, and also a mucisian. Is it worthy to spend almost an extra 2000 u$s for a G$ titanium or should i go with a G3?

[Eyewake]

Originally posted by beefcake
If you can't wait, just buy one now. With the new educational discounts the PB is much cheaper than it has been. Even if Apple miraculously releases and ships this month, prices may rebound back to the original PB price when the TiBooks were first released. Just speculation, but with an edu discount you can get a nice TiBook for $2200. Not a bad deal.

So apple is planning to jack up the prices???? Dam I better get one now then ;)

[Rower_CPU]

Here's the usual process when Apple updates a product.

Product gets old
Apple drops prices to clear stock
Apple introduces new product

Their last couple of releases have actually brought prices lower than the original, so I wouldn't worry too much about the prices being jacked up.

For your Flash and music needs, I'd say a G4 will be better. Just sit tight and see what happens in August.

[chomsky]

Originally posted by Eyewake
So you are saying that a PB G3 does the job just like a PB T?? for real because if that's the case I just get a G#, now if anybody know , tell me how the G3 Processor handles Flash. I'm a flash designer, and also a mucisian. Is it worthy to spend almost an extra 2000 u$s for a G$ titanium or should i go with a G3?

Please take a look at these sites:

http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/G3CARDS/XLR8G4/index.html
http://www.barefeats.com/g450.html

If your applications do not use Altivec SIMD instructions intensely (like some photoshop plugins, video editing software probably...), a G3 and G4 clocked at the same speed should perform more or less equivalent to each other.

I could be wrong but I do not believe that Flash makes any serious use of Altivec...

It's like paying $1000 more for a Pentium MMX instead of a Pentium, if you don't mind a slightly outdated metaphor.

The G3 iBook has firewire, USB and airport capabilities just like the TiBook...

(I am also a musician and plan on using the firewire port to connect to a digital sound interface for recording...)

Of course the TiBook has a faster GPU and the 15" screen. How important is that to you?

If someone can correct me on Flash not using Altivec, please do...

hope this help.

-chomsky

[chomsky]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU

For your Flash and music needs, I'd say a G4 will be better. Just sit tight and see what happens in August.

The G4 will be better, certainly.. but "better enough" to justify the difference in price? Only if a user's apps use Altivec, or if the new body designs are critical to a user's requirements.

Once again, my highly opinionated $0.02

-chomsky

[Eyewake]

Thanks guy for your input!!! I'm going to the apple store with a copy of photoshop and I'm going to test both ti and PB g3 . Steve won't take my dollars that easy.!

Thanks again

[panphage]

Photoshop benefits greatly from Altivec. It's just about the altivec poster child. If you run photoshop a lot, you want a powerbook.

[Eyewake]

Dont know what to say or think at this:
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,111551,00.asp

[seffis]

Overall, I think Apple really needs to kick up the PowerBook line, across the board. Folks'll probably hate me for saying it, but I think the current lineup is quite weak.

First, they need to update the 15". Right now.

And don't get me started on that 17". Yeah, it's huge, but the display resolution isn't all that. Why is it that Dell has a Cinema HD-equivalent notebook, and Apple doesn't?! Without question, the 17" should be at 1920x1200; I'd even settle for 1680x1050. If you're going to buy a 17" notebook (which I think you have to strap to the top of your car to carry around), you might as well get the benefit of a decent display.

Then, for all of the models, more speed. Can you believe that it's almost 2004, and we still have models with <1GHz processors? Nuff said. (I am anxious to see what we can get as Apple moves further away from Motorola.)

And now the price issue. I love the Macintosh as much as the next person (okay, maybe not in these forums), but boy it would be nice to see a significant price drop on Apple notebooks. Unless we're getting pretty close to desktop performance--like either 2xG4s, or a G5 PowerBook--we shouldn't have to pay as much. I look at it this way. Right now, I could not replace my Power Mac G4 desktop with a PowerBook G4. Not enough performance. So, the PB would end up having to supplement the desktop. This makes the iBook more attractive in theory, except that I just don't understand why it still exists (except for price).

Please, please, please, Apple. I want a new rockin' 15" Al PowerBook for around $2400. You owe it to me. I paid $3200 for my Cinema HD Display! :)

[Eyewake]

you pay 3200 !!!! dam! I've learned that lesson . I got the first dual 1G " that computer existed for only 2 months. I can't even run protools. ! paid close to 3000, so i'm in the same boat.

[nextdayflight5]

well i hope if you guys are saving up for a new powerbook you know what your getting yourself into because the 1ghz is 2600.
the 1.1ghz is probably gonna be 2900. they cant sell them cheaper, they would just loose money it didnt happen with the G4 powermacs to G5 price and it wont happen here.

[sockseller]

So I caved and am gunna buy the current 15"...

Once I realized I was gunna get $500 off if I bought an iPod with it, it seemed kinda stupid for me to wait around until probably mid September for the new model that won't really be that much better, and not nearly at the same price as what I can get now...

[jaedreth]

Yeah, that's an oxymoron, isn't it? :)

What apple announces in September may be outstanding. But it won't be G5.

If you don't *need* the latest and greatest, and are in the market for a powerbook now, bite the bullet, cash in on the discounts. Then wait and by G5.

I'd suspect sometime in July of 04', not January like everyone else is saying.

It's not a perfect world, and Apple is getting sloppy in some areas, but keep in mind, we *are* still the Intel/Microsoft Resistence, we need to roll with the good and the bad times. This is the bad. With G5 on the horizon, it can only get better.

Jaedreth

[jbomber]

Originally posted by jaedreth
Y

It's not a perfect world, and Apple is getting sloppy in some areas, but keep in mind, we *are* still the Intel/Microsoft Resistence, we need to roll with the good and the bad times. This is the bad. With G5 on the horizon, it can only get better.

Jaedreth


Oooh! Are we gonna sing the club song now?

La Resistance lives on... :D

[MacFan26]

Originally posted by sockseller
So I caved and am gunna buy the current 15"...

Once I realized I was gunna get $500 off if I bought an iPod with it, it seemed kinda stupid for me to wait around until probably mid September for the new model that won't really be that much better, and not nearly at the same price as what I can get now...


You're not the only one, I caved too. I'm pretty satisfied though, it was a good deal, and it will be nice to have it before school starts. Even though an update is overdue, it's still an awesome computer.

[Bascule]

I agree its tricky. If I decided to go for the 12" I'll proberly do it now. But if it turns out the 15" will be better suited I think Ill wait. (blue tooth and 802.11g quite important to me)

Went shopping in London yesterday and it was so hard to walk away from the Pretty Powerbooks on display.

Oh well I guess if thats as hard as life gets it can't be that bad.

[Eyewake]

Originally posted by jaedreth
Yeah, that's an oxymoron, isn't it? :)

What apple announces in September may be outstanding. But it won't be G5.

If you don't *need* the latest and greatest, and are in the market for a powerbook now, bite the bullet, cash in on the discounts. Then wait and by G5.

I'd suspect sometime in July of 04', not January like everyone else is saying.

It's not a perfect world, and Apple is getting sloppy in some areas, but keep in mind, we *are* still the Intel/Microsoft Resistence, we need to roll with the good and the bad times. This is the bad. With G5 on the horizon, it can only get better.

Jaedreth

Dude I just want to tell you that your signature was way too funny, I loved it, do you mind if I highjack it ???? ;) very cool

[sacrilicious]

I feel so jaded now. Ah. I used to love this mystical Apple company now I'm just heated that they don't ever update their products.

Damn you, Macrumors.com! :D

[AppleMatt]

For those that 'caved', you still have OS 9 booting.

A distinct advantage in my opinion.

Also the Ti has undergone many revs, the Al's are still Rev A

AppleMatt

[DakotaGuy]

Originally posted by seffis
This makes the iBook more attractive in theory, except that I just don't understand why it still exists (except for price).

When Apple announced their sales figures, the iBook was the second best selling line they have behind a combined sales of the iMac/eMac. Unit by unit sales it outsold the Powerbook line by several thousand. It is just my guess that is why it still exists. If Apple dumps the iBook line, they are going to dump a lot of education and consumer sales right down the toliet.

[Nemesis]

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
When Apple announced their sales figures, the iBook was the second best selling line they have behind a combined sales of the iMac/eMac. Unit by unit sales it outsold the Powerbook line by several thousand. It is just my guess that is why it still exists. If Apple dumps the iBook line, they are going to dump a lot of education and consumer sales right down the toliet.

Right! iBook is the most important computer for Apple right now and rumors guys like MacBidoulle or whatever just don't think when they say that iBooks will be slashed ...
iBooks will be improved. Probably introduce G4 across the entire line, like iMacs and eMacs. Maybe G3 won't be in use, but iProducts certaily will!

[jbomber]

Originally posted by Nemesis
Right! iBook is the most important computer for Apple right now and rumors guys like MacBidoulle or whatever just don't think when they say that iBooks will be slashed ...
iBooks will be improved. Probably introduce G4 across the entire line, like iMacs and eMacs. Maybe G3 won't be in use, but iProducts certaily will!

ibooks aren't going anywhere. The 15" pbook isn't being eliminated.

deep breaths. we're all just going to have to wait. and wait. and wait...

[Eyewake]

I'm a mac user since forever, I have a pc somewhere in my house and I don't even know where it is, but the question is: a friend of mine just bought a 1.8 g HP laptop (PC) en I was able to open every single application there, quark docs from mac, flash. photoshop, freehand, illustrator. He only paid for that computer brand new 750 u$s. At the same time an ex partner of mine has has a PB G4 1 gig, and let me tell you the PC kicks ass in all aspects. there is almost a 2500 dollars of a difference (or maybe more) on the price. We all know that Mac PBs wont never replace a desktop computer, so is it worthy for me to spend all those dollars to get a weak performance in 1 inch thick? I'm in the middle of the line and don't know what to do. I own 3 G4 desktops, always hated PC, but is it time for me to face reality??? when it comes to laptops I think PC rules. Don't know tell me what you guys think....

PD: Flash and photoshop flys on a pc laptop :( why can't apple make a fast laptop too...

[AppleMatt]

Macromedia have admitted Flash is ****** on the Mac, and that the next release focuses mainly on getting the speed up.

AppleMatt

[jbomber]

Originally posted by AppleMatt
Macromedia have admitted Flash is ****** on the Mac, and that the next release focuses mainly on getting the speed up.

AppleMatt

Yeah. it's sad as all hell that the application drags @$$ on the Mac. It makes it so damn hard to test your flashwork unless you have both platforms. :p Hopefully the updates will bring things up to at least near parity.

[sacrilicious]

Flash on the client's end, too, or just the developer's end?

[AppleMatt]

He was only talking about the client end (browser plugin). But you can bet your bottom dollar if asked he would say they wanted to improve FlashMX app speed (who doesn't)

:wink:

AppleMatt

[plutnicki]

But I was in my local Apple store this weekend, and the Powerbook display was missing the 15" Powerbook. Just 2 weeks or so ago, all 3 Powerbooks were out sharing the same space, but on Saturday, Just the 12 and the 17 were there...

I've been really enjoying my new 15" TiBook.... I hope there's a new 15 so that you that have been waiting can start enjoying yours.

[WasteGate]

Did I hear a rumor that there were new PowerBooks coming.......
Yer right :(

[Eyewake]

It's really sad but Macromedia needs to improve flash in both side (plugin, and app) to me, Flash and photoshop is what pay my bills... I only have Macs , but I'm thinking of entering Mr. Gate's powerbook world, just for the laptops. Apple can't nearly even compete against PC, and we all should know that. You can get a PC 3 or more times faster than a 17'' 1G. for for times less the price.... sad but true. I'm starting to see more people everyday giving up at apple's PB.... you tell me...It's either mister Jobs you drop the prices, or leave the price as is now but increase the performance.

[MrSugar]

Originally posted by Eyewake
I'm a mac user since forever, I have a pc somewhere in my house and I don't even know where it is, but the question is: a friend of mine just bought a 1.8 g HP laptop (PC) en I was able to open every single application there, quark docs from mac, flash. photoshop, freehand, illustrator. He only paid for that computer brand new 750 u$s. At the same time an ex partner of mine has has a PB G4 1 gig, and let me tell you the PC kicks ass in all aspects. there is almost a 2500 dollars of a difference (or maybe more) on the price. We all know that Mac PBs wont never replace a desktop computer, so is it worthy for me to spend all those dollars to get a weak performance in 1 inch thick? I'm in the middle of the line and don't know what to do. I own 3 G4 desktops, always hated PC, but is it time for me to face reality??? when it comes to laptops I think PC rules. Don't know tell me what you guys think....

PD: Flash and photoshop flys on a pc laptop :( why can't apple make a fast laptop too...

I refer to my post here: http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=437304#post437288

[panphage]

I concur with MrSugar in all regards. The PCs have higher clock speeds. They do tons less work per clock. Just because the number on your friend's PC is 3x higher than the Mac doesn't mean it's an entire 3x (or even 2x) faster. A Wintel laptop to compare to the 15" ti book would cost you...well, you can't do it. "Up to 4 hours" battery life. Must be a joke but I ain't laughing. I'm sure it gets four hours battery life if the machine is sleeping, but not it you are using it. Twice the thickness. Starting at 3 pounds heavier. You can't unpack the Dell laptop and start editing video, managing a huge music or photo library, or sync it with your phone or pda. These things can be done with the PC, but you have to buy and install extra software.

For $750, let's just see what you get.
*14.1" XGA
*2.0Ghz Celeron (the low-end bargain chip, not the "high-performance" Pentium)
*128MB RAM, but it IS DDR (half what you get on the lowest PB15)
*20GB HDD (again, half the apple minimum)
*DVD Rom (the powerbook has a DVD/CDRW combo drive)
*USB 2.0 (but not firewire, a draw?)
*"Up to" an "approximate" 3.5 hours. How many times can we qualify this?
*Integrated graphics "Intel Extreme" SHARING MEMORY with the rest of the system.

Looks like we ought to compare this to the iBook instead. Oops, the 14.1" iBook ALSO has 256MB RAM (albeit SDRAM) AND a 40GB HDD AND a combo drive. Also firewire, Radeon Mobility 7500 w/32MB dedicated video memory, and "up to" 6 hours battery life. The ibook is 1.3# lighter than the base Inspiron. But the ibook is only 1/2 inch thinner this time.

Sorry, but after you boost the PC to match the ibook, I'll pay the $200 price difference. Since it can't compete with the G4, especially for photoshop, and the Dell doesn't have ANY of the handy apps that come bundled with OS X, I think you should stick with the mac, especially when you can get the titanium powerbook AND a 15GB ipod for less than $2500 if you are a student or teacher.

[daveL]

Well said.