Panther Seeding Continues...

[MacRumors]

Reports indicate that Apple has seeded an updated version of Panther.

The original Panther that was distributed at WWDC carried a build number of 7A179. A subsequent 'Test' Software Update (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/07/20030711172105.shtml) brought Panther up to build 7A202, with improvements in Exposé, Mail and iChat.

Friday, Apple seeded developers with Panther 7B21, but with few details on the changes are provided. This build is said to incorporate extensive bug fixes, however.

[JtheLemur]

Blah! I can't wait for Panther. =D

[rDLr]

Does this build include support for Microsoft Exchange Server within the Mail application like the rumors say?

[Rx7 Fan]

When is it coming out? I've heard somewhere towards the end of September. Hopefully it will be out when the new 12" powerbook comes out so I don't have to buy both. I could just get it free w/ a purchase of a powerbook :D :D :D

[inkswamp]

I read at macosrumors (yeah, yeah... I know... some of you have a real problem with that site) that there are plans for quite a few more coming features in Panther "These will be among the 70+ Panther features that Apple hasn't publicly announced (nor, in many cases, actually implemented!) yet; expect to hear a lot about these in the coming months."

I'd like to think that this is true and that Windowshade and themes will be amongst them, but I tend to think that won't be the case.

[joephish]

Yeah, I'm waiting to get a revised 12" PowerBook too... hopefully it'll come with Panther!

Re: MacOSRumors.com

What is wrong with it? I too have noticed lots of derogatory posts about it. Can anyone enlighten me as to why nobody trusts them? They seem to have some interesting, believable sounding stuff on their site - is this all just intelligent speculation?

[AppleMatt]

Originally posted by inkswamp
I read at macosrumors (yeah, yeah... I know... some of you have a real problem with that site) that there are plans for quite a few more coming features in Panther "These will be among the 70+ Panther features that Apple hasn't publicly announced (nor, in many cases, actually implemented!) yet; expect to hear a lot about these in the coming months."

I think they are going on the assumption Steve Jobs will do what he did last year; "A dollar a feature"

Originally posted by inkswamp
I'd like to think that this is true and that Windowshade and themes will be amongst them, but I tend to think that won't be the case.

Two things I'd love in Panther. I'd be happpy if they just brought back minimise in place from the OS X beta.

Originally posted by joephish
What is wrong with it? I too have noticed lots of derogatory posts about it. Can anyone enlighten me as to why nobody trusts them? They seem to have some interesting, believable sounding stuff on their site - is this all just intelligent speculation?

They don't have a good accuracy track record, and as someone pointed out yesterday, they try to improve it with the most general of comments, "What we can tell you however, that within a year the product line will receive at least minor updates". No ****** Sherlock.

Saying that, it was the first rumor site I followed (sniff. those were the days. the pre-macrumors.com days)

AppleMatt

[solvs]

Do a little archive search, and MacOSRumors doesn't look so reliable. They were my first, too. But after begging for a Radeon 8500 with ADC (no such creature BTW) to play with, then overclocking it (and thus ruining it), then having the nerve to beg for another one... they lost many of us as readers.

Not to mention the fact that they seem to be consistantly wrong, making up the most outrageous claims. The only time they seem to be right is when it's posted on a bunch of other places first. Even then. We all make mistakes, these are rumors after all, but MOSR is almost as much of a joke as BuyMusic.com is.

Don't believe anything they say unless it's one of the broad generalizations they're now famous for.

edit: Just take a look at what's currently showing on their main page. What isn't obvious, is obviously wrong. If you get your hopes up for most of this stuff, you will be sorely disappointed.

Is it me, or do they no longer have a way to check previous articles?

[richie]

Originally posted by AppleMatt
I think they are going on the assumption Steve Jobs will do what he did last year; "A dollar a feature"


Actually, Steve said in the keynote that there are 100+ improvements/features in Panther, so MOSR is basing their 70+ off that :)

[AppleMatt]

Okies. Well I read that development (of new features) on Panther was meant to have finished now, which is a shame.

However as the release date is wooly, perhaps development is continuing. I'm surprised at the small interest in this thread. I'll get hold of this build soon and see what's new. Hopefully it'll solve my big battery problem.

AppleMatt

[mstecker]

Originally posted by solvs
Just take a look at what's currently showing on their main page. What isn't obvious, is obviously wrong.

What? The claim of "The World's Fastest Personal Computer"? I've been following the benchmarking controversy in some detail, and it's clear that AT VERY LEAST - reasonable minds will differ about the claim. There are plenty of people (like me) who are willing to agree with it. That alone places it very far from "obviously" wrong.

[AppleMatt]

err...he was talking of www.macosrumors.com front page, not www.apple.com.

AppleMatt

[Freg3000]

Does the B in the seed name signify the first Beta release, while the A in the first 2 seeds stood for Alpha?

[TylerL]

Originally posted by Freg3000
Does the B in the seed name signify the first Beta release, while the A in the first 2 seeds stood for Alpha? That stands for the "major minor" revision number.
For a revision bigger than a tiny bugfix. Jaguar's at 6L60 right now.

[mstecker]

Originally posted by AppleMatt
err...he was talking of www.macosrumors.com front page, not www.apple.com.

AppleMatt

Whoops. (wipes egg from face)

[Capt Underpants]

Originally posted by inkswamp
I read at macosrumors (yeah, yeah... I know... some of you have a real problem with that site) that there are plans for quite a few more coming features in Panther "These will be among the 70+ Panther features that Apple hasn't publicly announced (nor, in many cases, actually implemented!) yet; expect to hear a lot about these in the coming months."

Steve Jobs said that there were going to be tons more features than they could show at WWDC.

[DrugsBunny]

There's a lot to like in 7B21!!!! Wooohoo. So damn fast and bug-free.

[AppleMatt]

I take it you have the new build.

Few questions;
- Are you a developer? (I won't flame if you aren't)
- Any new features?
- Any big bugs fixed?
- Any UI differences/improvements?
- Can you post XBench results and what machine you're using it on please?

AppleMatt

[richard5mith]

Icons for applications now zoom towards you a bit and then fade out when double clicked for launching.

[JLL]

Originally posted by TylerL
That stands for the "major minor" revision number.
For a revision bigger than a tiny bugfix. Jaguar's at 6L60 right now.

The L stands for Late release ;)

[jessefoxperry]

I haven't checked yet, but I'm guessing this new release isn't in the Panther Software Update? Please say it is :)

[DrugsBunny]

Yes, I'm a developer. Maan, it's all so NDA. Beyond the WWDC release of Panther, the biggest noticeable feature is that HelpViewer seems to be using WebKit. Mac Help (the finder's help) doesn't launch because the help files are messed up but iTunes help, for example is there and it's damn quick. Other than, annoying draw bugs in Finder icons have been fixed but there are still definite draw bugs. Window open/close and file browsing are lightening now. Crashing apps now bring up a dialog to send a bug report à la WinXP. Oh..and for me, battery life is now back up to the 3 hour mark on a TiBook 1Ghz on a full charge. Nothing really huge in the UI department, just a few widget changes in keychain, pref panes have been cleaned up a bit. OpenGL performance seems to have gone down marginally. But overall it seems much faster. Don't install it over a previous build, archive then install.

Cable account has been capped so I can't even d/l the 284K needed to get Xbench without having the damn thing timeout.

[richard5mith]

Finder Help launches fine for me and yes, it's damn quick. CD3 is X11 (launches in one bounce) and an extra voice for the speech, Vicki (a nicer version of existing Victoria). Don't seem to be able to assign mouse buttons to Exposé anymore.

[SYN]

Could those with the build check if kqueue() support is in the Finder? ie if creating files in the terminal show in the finder immediately, or if file sizes in the Get Info windows update when modifed (for files being transfered/created) etc.?

How is QT?

[DrugsBunny]

Where is that Vault thing???? I looked everywhere and I can't find it. Hey, has anyone checked out Chess? That thing is so totally cool now.

[AppleMatt]

All good info...

A shame about mouse buttons and Exposé, I hope that's put back. Is it back for screen effects?

Excellent about X11, that for one will make me pre-order Panther when it's announced.

I'd like to see great improvements in pref panes, however the icons zoom/fade sounds really smooth :cool:

All good info guys...keep it coming!

AppleMatt

[DrugsBunny]

Hmm, well touching a file in terminal while the relevant directory is open does not result in the file showing up instantly. Only upon bring the Finder window to the foreground does the file get shown. Wasn't Jaguar like this as well?

[SYN]

yeah, Jaguar was like this, I'd hoped they'd have changed all this, especially with the kqueue support... When a file is being downloaded, it's size in the get info window doesn't update either?

could you (or someone else) post the release notes?

[richard5mith]

Originally posted by DrugsBunny
Where is that Vault thing???? I looked everywhere and I can't find it. Hey, has anyone checked out Chess? That thing is so totally cool now.

Yea, the now fully 3D chess is very cool, complete with reflections and spinning the board around to any angle.

[AppleMatt]

Originally posted by richard5mith
Yea, the now fully 3D chess is very cool, complete with reflections and spinning the board around to any angle.

The real question is, can anyone beat it yet? I defy anyone to beat Jaguars' chess.

Keep the info coming lads, good work.

AppleMatt

[richard5mith]

Mail is extremely fast. Being able to select multiple folders at once and then thread the contents is a great way to see a mail conversation. So I select sent items and my work folder and then switch on threaded mode and I can see the original message, my reply, their reply, my reply and so on.

Default for zip files doesn't appear to be stuffit anymore, seems to be BOMArchiveHelper. Downloading zip with Safari, it unzipped it and I never even saw the original zip. Everywhere I can right click on folders, files etc and choose "archive" and I get a zip file of the selected item.

Quicktime performance is improved, it now does a lot better at playing the huge AVI file I have than it does in Jaguar. It doesn't play the sound for that video though, even though it does in Jaguar. VLC plays the sound and video for it fine tho.

The lock icon on system preference windows etc looks different.

Info window under the Ownership and permissions shows what you can do with the file and then expands again to let you change the owner/group/other as before.

Smooth scrolling can be switched on/off and doesn't mess up the safari window contents.

Pressing command and up arrow in the finder opens the containing folder of whatever folder you're currently in.

Brushed metal finder still looks horrible, UI is all wrong. At least clicking the lozenge in the top right returns it to Aqua no toolbar mode.

I will say that some of this stuff might already have been in Panther, but I didn't get enough time to use the previous build properly.

[oohihio]

sounds great! I for one really long for a snappier Mail.app and threading sounds great!

[AppleMatt]

Threaded mail will be useful for me. I've currently got a few ongoing disputes with eBayers, and at the moment I'm copying the emails from inbox and sent folders into a "dispute" folder. This will eliminate the need for that.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesn't like the new finder, I was afraid of saying it before incase I got flamed. I don't think it's like iTunes, usability and functionally. I do like being able to put my folders down one side and dragging files to them though, it gets them off my dock.

Also glad QT performance is up, perhaps they've started removing the OS 9 code and replacing it with X-native code (which they should have done in the OS X beta). Good stuff, very interesting. That's pretty comprehensive, but if you notice more, you know where to post :wink:

AppleMatt

[SYN]

great info... The archive cmm is intriguing to say the least.

how well is it threaded? ie does archiving large directories slow down the finder, or block it? does it take advantage of duals?

does the finder still lock-up while accessing an iDisk, or can you just open another finder window and be on your way?

Is the size of the item in the Get Info window live, ie does it change when a file is being downloaded?

So many questions ;o)

[richard5mith]

Zipping was really fast, couldn't even see the CPU usage go up when running top to check. Could easily open other Finder windows at the same time, as I could also do while waiting for an iDisk folder to come up (the apple software one).

[JLL]

Originally posted by richard5mith
Pressing command and up arrow in the finder opens the containing folder of whatever folder you're currently in.

That has been possible for many many years.

[joephish]

Um, about command up-arrow to go to the folder which contains the current one has been in MacOS for about as long as I remember! It is all to do with going down a level and up and level in the file system hierarchy. It works with the down arrow too to open a folder.

[ultrafiel]

I just want to know when this is coming out (final release that is)? I thought it would be the same as Jag late August/early Sept, but now I'm not so sure. I know they've stated before the end of the year, but I wish they would give us a specific or estimated date, because I want to reinstall my whole system from scratch and then reinstall all my apps, but if Panther will be out soon I'll wait until then, but if it is in Nov I might just do it now. Anyway, all the new changes sound fun.

And about MOSR, I also used to use them a lot back in the day, as with AppleInsider. However, even though I check them out now (mostly out of habit), they do have some practices that annoy me. I hate how they lately have been begging for sponsers to test new hardware and then post the results giving "good marketing" for them. Lame. It comes across to me as, "Hey give us new stuff to play with and will make up some results based on hardly anything, but will mention your name a few times saying you were nice to give us stuff because we're cheap and can't get enough off of adverstising to buy it ourselves." I really hate that, but maybe I'll just make my own site and do the same.

Hey if any of you give me a G5 I'll tell my family/friends you were nice to me, and I'll say it is much faster than my G4 450/AGP. Woohoo!!!

[richard5mith]

Originally posted by joephish
Um, about command up-arrow to go to the folder which contains the current one has been in MacOS for about as long as I remember! It is all to do with going down a level and up and level in the file system hierarchy. It works with the down arrow too to open a folder.

It's because it's now in the Finder Go menu along with back and forward and I just hadn't noticed it before.

[AppleMatt]

Let's just ignore it, Richard said some of the things he mentioned might already be present. Discussion of new features is more juicy.

AppleMatt

[cnladd]

Originally posted by richard5mith
It's because it's now in the Finder Go menu along with back and forward and I just hadn't noticed it before.

I'm still running the test update, but both this version and the first version have Panther had an annoying bug with Cmd-Up. If you're heading up the tree and reach the top ("Computer Name") and hit it one more time, you'll crash the Finder. Happens each and every time for me.

[Abdesai]

Is keycaps back in the new version of Panther?

[richard5mith]

scp in the terminal keeps opening a kerberos application asking me to authenticate. Cancel twice and scp runs as normal. Anybody got any idea how to disable that?

[cyberfunk]

What I want to know is,

A) is there a way to get rid of those beastly metallic finder windows that take up so much space ?

B) Is there a way to keep that annoying side drawer closed so that it doesnt auto-open on new windows ?

I thought the previous interface was just fine... I hope someone can do for the Finder what Safari Enhancer did for Safari (revert it to Aqua) if apple doesnt give us the option.

[movabi]

I guess i'm still one of the few that think this update is ho-hum. I'm mean there are definately some worth while features... but on a whole, it seems weaker than the jag update. I still would like to see a re-implementation of finder tabs a la OS9 (just like apple did with spring-loaded folders). I'd like to see more customization in the dock... a better way of grouping things, and I'd like to see spring loaded folders from the dock that even worked in heirarchal menus... it would help me out a lot. When adding a new file in list view, I'd love it if I could just type the name instead of having to click it off and then click on it to edit text. I like to see some interface improvements. I find it annoying that there is only one way to grab a finder window (by the top). In OS9 you use to be able to grab a window from the left hand side of the window frame... in OSX they eliminated that part of the frame. Why this bothers me is in OSX sometimes moves window's title bar and navigation up under the menu bar making it impossible to move the window down, forcing me to do command W and opening the window up again. Maybe I'm unaware of something that could help me out here, if so, enlighten me. I can think of many other things that shareware hacks provide that should be part of the OS... windowshades, themes, system font control, labels (finally)-- Question: do they work in list view?

There is more, but you get the idea... Does anyone else think this update is yawn? If so, I'd like to hear what you think this OS is lacking.

[Rincewind42]

Originally posted by Abdesai
Is keycaps back in the new version of Panther?

Keycaps was turned into an Input Method. System Preference -> International -> Input Menu -> Key Caps Palette.

[daveL]

I'm an ADC Select member, so I log in to the ADC site and try to download the new Panther images, but I keep timing out before the download starts. Are the servers simply saturated, or is there another problem? Anyone else having problems (or success even)?

Thanks for any feedback

[JLL]

Originally posted by daveL
I'm an ADC Select member, so I log in to the ADC site and try to download the new Panther images, but I keep timing out before the download starts. Are the servers simply saturated, or is there another problem? Anyone else having problems (or success even)?

Thanks for any feedback

The servers are very busy :-)

[JLL]

Originally posted by movabi
I can think of many other things that shareware hacks provide that should be part of the OS... windowshades

Exposé is much much better than window shades.

[AppleMatt]

Originally posted by JLL
Exposé is much much better than window shades.

It's window shade. Although I like Exposé, it's not actually 'better' than window shade, it's different. I'd like both, window shade would be much more useful over the 'wow' factor of Exposé to me.

AppleMatt

[daveL]

Originally posted by JLL
The servers are very busy :-)
The download site banner says to use ftp rather than a browser, but I'll be damned if I can get logged in. Can anyone tell me what they want for user name and password? I've tried my ADC login and my ADC "person number" and ADC password, but neither worked. Maybe it's just the server load?

Thanks in advance.

[richard5mith]

Try a different server, there is a choice of five at the top of the page. Europe was completely saturated for me last night, but I had good success with the asia one and usa 2.

[JLL]

Originally posted by daveL
The download site banner says to use ftp rather than a browser, but I'll be damned if I can get logged in. Can anyone tell me what they want for user name and password? I've tried my ADC login and my ADC "person number" and ADC password, but neither worked. Maybe it's just the server load?

Thanks in advance.

I'm using FTP and it's almost finished now - it took 9 hours on a 1MBit line.

If you log on to connect.apple.com and try to download a file, the session password that you can use in a FTP client too shows up in the URL bar.

[sparkleytone]

As for revision numbers/letters...The first number is the kernel version (6 is Jaguar, 7 is Panther), the letter is the kernel revision (6.6 is 10.2.6), and the numbers afterward i believe is the nth compiled version of the version and revision (6L60 released after 59 internal builds). A simple hostinfo will affirm the first two.

mosr just makes stuff up. avoid that site like the plague, along with looprumors. there is a difference between a rumor site and an attention-getting farce. if you are going to read mosr and lr, you may as well read CARS (www.crazyapplerumors.com) as a bonefied rumor site.

[daveL]

Originally posted by JLL
I'm using FTP and it's almost finished now - it took 9 hours on a 1MBit line.

If you log on to connect.apple.com and try to download a file, the session password that you can use in a FTP client too shows up in the URL bar.
Thanks loads ... just got ftp loggin to Asia.

[elmimmo]

Originally posted by richard5mith
Everywhere I can right click on folders, files etc and choose "archive" and I get a zip file of the selected item.

What about resource forks? DropZip used to transparently wrap the file using in macbinary format, I think, so it preserve the resources.

[Powerbook G5]

Just wondering...I am still using OS 9 since my computer doesn't run OS X very well at all (perhaps it's because I got OS X right when it came out at 10.0?). One thing that annoys me is having all my programs visible when I just want to see one. Currently I am using Action Utilities GoMac! as a third party hack to "hide all other applications upon switch". When I went to OS X, I noticed I couldn't find any way of doing the same thing or to get a hack to do the same thing. Is there any way to just view the current application you are in between switching or a third party application that does this well without any intrusive habits? It's just annoying having 3 applications open and having to see a clutter of inactive windows when all I want to work on at a time is one individual program. I want to use OS X so bad and hope to when I get a new 15" AlBook (when it FINALLY comes out), but this one issue is still nagging me a bit.

[AppleMatt]

Powerbook G5;
Goto the Applications menu (just right of the Apple menu), and choose "Hide [application]" or "Hide Others". There are also a number of corresponding/relavent shortcuts, however for these may I ask you post this in the software forum so this thread doesn't shoot off-topic?

AppleMatt

[richard5mith]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
Just wondering...I am still using OS 9 since my computer doesn't run OS X very well at all (perhaps it's because I got OS X right when it came out at 10.0?). One thing that annoys me is having all my programs visible when I just want to see one. Currently I am using Action Utilities GoMac! as a third party hack to "hide all other applications upon switch". When I went to OS X, I noticed I couldn't find any way of doing the same thing or to get a hack to do the same thing. Is there any way to just view the current application you are in between switching or a third party application that does this well without any intrusive habits? It's just annoying having 3 applications open and having to see a clutter of inactive windows when all I want to work on at a time is one individual program. I want to use OS X so bad and hope to when I get a new 15" AlBook (when it FINALLY comes out), but this one issue is still nagging me a bit.

OS X has always done this, just hold down option+command when you click the icon in the dock and all other windows will hide apart from ones belonging to that one.

[Powerbook G5]

Sorry, just figured this may be more on topic as an added feature, similar to window shade and such. I haven't had much time to play with OS X since it came out, so I can't check easily to see if it is there. The keyboard shortcuts never worked for me, perhaps it's a bug with the software I have, but the only way it will hide anything is if I actually use the program to auto hide after switch. Thanks for the info, though.

[inkswamp]

Originally posted by AppleMatt
It's window shade. Although I like Exposé, it's not actually 'better' than window shade, it's different.

Windowshade is such a simple but powerful concept and thus far the two potential replacements for it (minimizing to dock and Exposé) are no replacements at all. The great thing about Windowshade is that it allows you to hide a window without dismissing it. It was extremely effective for looking briefly behind the front window. Click once... window gone. Click again.. window back. Quick and effective. Exposé and minimizing require too much mousing around and clicking to be effective replacements. I just wish Apple would drop this apparent snobbishness toward all things OS 9.

[HornetOSX]

Too much mouseing around ???? one click and the windows are moved out of the way ... I'm not sure how you have yours set but on 7A202 works fine for me

Tho I was testing out Opengl performance in Q3 and was quite please BUT... if you have expose bound to mouse buttons it starts to mess up Q3 binds....


And since I uhhh sourced this for testing from the net .. can anyone that has ADC suggest that you can have excluded Apps so that binds dont interfere ...

[zigzag]

Originally posted by inkswamp
Windowshade is such a simple but powerful concept and thus far the two potential replacements for it (minimizing to dock and Exposé) are no replacements at all. The great thing about Windowshade is that it allows you to hide a window without dismissing it. It was extremely effective for looking briefly behind the front window. Click once... window gone. Click again.. window back. Quick and effective. Exposé and minimizing require too much mousing around and clicking to be effective replacements. I just wish Apple would drop this apparent snobbishness toward all things OS 9.

Couldn't have said it better myself!

[DrugsBunny]

Windowshade is such a simple but powerful concept and thus far the two potential replacements for it (minimizing to dock and Exposé) are no replacements at all. The great thing about Windowshade is that it allows you to hide a window without dismissing it. It was extremely effective for looking briefly behind the front window. Click once... window gone. Click again.. window back. Quick and effective. Exposé and minimizing require too much mousing around and clicking to be effective replacements. I just wish Apple would drop this apparent snobbishness toward all things OS 9.
Windowshade wouldn't "mesh" well with the rest of aqua and exposé already provides a more elegant solution. Too many windows? Hold down whatever key/mouse button and find what you're looking for. With 10+ windows, shading/unshading becomes extremely annoying and just having a titlebar dangling in thin air spoils the "smoothness" of aqua. There's not really anything I can think of that OS 9 does better than OS X anymore (at least vs Panther). At one stage, I used to think launch speeds were always going to be faster in OS 9 but this is no longer the case. All factors considered, this is an amazing feat by Apple

[rubikcube]

Originally posted by daveL
The download site banner says to use ftp rather than a browser, but I'll be damned if I can get logged in. Can anyone tell me what they want for user name and password? I've tried my ADC login and my ADC "person number" and ADC password, but neither worked. Maybe it's just the server load?

Thanks in advance.

I've messed around with this before. The ftp login is your person number and the password seems to be a time hash of your password or some kind of session id.

[psxndc]

Originally posted by inkswamp
Windowshade is such a simple but powerful concept...

Why don't people just use Virtual Desktop (http://www.codetek.com/php/virtual.php) from CodeTek to hide/unhide windows? Built in hotkeys mean no mousing at all. I don't know how anyone can use OS X (especially on a 12" iBook) without it. Best $20 I've spent on OS X software (I got in during the beta program, but I'd still pay $30 for it)

-p

[cnladd]

Originally posted by inkswamp
The great thing about Windowshade is that it allows you to hide a window without dismissing it. I just wish Apple would drop this apparent snobbishness toward all things OS 9.

I don't see it as snobbishness towards OS 9. They're just trying to do things better than they did before.

Granted, I've never used Windowshade on OS 9 (in fact, I've never used OS 9 -- or any earlier Mac OS) before, but I've used similar functional act-alikes on X-Windows and Mac OS X. I hate that "feature".

As for hiding a window without dismissing it, I used to make generous use of the hide (Cmd-H) command. Once hidden, clicking on the dock or a simple Cmd-Tab would bring back the hidden window. I still do that now ocassionally, but I make more and more use out of Expose every day.

[billyboy]

Originally posted by psxndc
Why don't people just use Virtual Desktop (http://www.codetek.com/php/virtual.php) from CodeTek to hide/unhide windows? Built in hotkeys mean no mousing at all. I don't know how anyone can use OS X (especially on a 12" iBook) without it. Best $20 I've spent on OS X software (I got in during the beta program, but I'd still pay $30 for it)

-p

It is clever but it turned my system flaky. If such a "hack" was part of OSX then Im sure it would work fine, but exposé looks such a killer feature. From having us frantically minimalising open windows or clicking the dock to see what is going on on the desktop, at a stroke Apple has substituted what in Windows is the useful but utilitarian bottom menu bar for a very informative Mac GUI spectacular .

[agdickinson]

When you try to download Panther from the 'Download What's New' area of the ADC site, when you click on the 'DOWNLOAD' button you will notice that the http bar at the top of the screen brings up a something like:

ftp://(A)?????????:(B)???????@???????.apple.com.au/Mac_OS_X/Mac_OS_X_10.3_Panther_????/???????????????????

I selected ASIA (apple.com.au) out of a whim it's the same for the other servers.

(As I've signed the NDA I have had to ??? out the username/password and server and remove the file location sorry. If your an ADC member all of this information will be shown in the http address bar however)

What you then need to do is take a copy of this and copy it into text editor.

Start terminal and start an ftp session ie:

ftp ???????.apple.com.uk

When username is requested enter in
(A)?????????
When password is requested then enter
(B)???????
You will then be in to the site:
use
'cd Mac_OS_X/Mac_OS_X_10.3_Panther_????/'

which takes u to the Panther directory.
use the command
'bin' - to set the download type to binary
'prompt' - so that the ftp client does not ask for responses
'mget *' - will download all files in the directory. Please note there are lots of file.

Then it's just waiting the 10 hours or so at 1kb/s for the download's....

Hope this helps.

A :)

.:) :)

[gwales123]

I don't know about anyone else but I would like to see the stupid green button do something useful like a full maximise (see windows).

And why not stick the window buttons on the right (oh yes I know, we are supposed to be (think) different to the herd). Well, it would make life a whole lot easier for windows users to feel at home without compromising any of the Mac look and feel.

Am I alone in wanting this simple concession to windows?

btw-please don't bother venting platform bias hangups to discuss this thread. It's not rocket science.

[AppleMatt]

That's a good point, they've removed "zoom window" from Jaguar in Panther, which I found very useful.

My Windows friend said he wouldn't like scrolling and then having to move his mouse all the way over to the other side of the window to close it. I don't know if he was just making excuses though.

Any new info on this seed?

AppleMatt

[AppleMatt]

For those who haven't seen yet, there's quite a good ThinkSecret article on the new seed here;

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/panther7B21.html

AppleMatt

[ryaxnb]

Originally posted by cyberfunk
[B]What I want to know is,

A) is there a way to get rid of those beastly metallic finder windows that take up so much space ?

Well, one person says you can press the "Old Finder Mode" button. Also, if you just want to get rid of the metal look, Metallifizer (free from unsanity.com) can do that, but only to Cocoa apps, and I don't know if the Finder is Cocoa.

[ryaxnb]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
[B] When I went to OS X, I noticed I couldn't find any way of doing the same thing or to get a hack to do the same thing.
I don't know about 10.0/10.1, but most apps in 10.2 let you choose Application Menu>Hide Others (or, in some, Option+Command+H.)
BTW, 10.1 is apparently quite a bit faster than 10.0, and especially if your machine supports Quartz Extreme, 10.2 is even faster.

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by ryaxnb
...and I don't know if the Finder is Cocoa.

Nope, Finder is not cocoa but it do use .Nib based interface now.

.Nib based interface is a "cocoa" interface. It will behave in the same way as most cocoa app does.

[Catfish_Man]

Originally posted by Adam Betts
Nope, Finder is not cocoa but it do use .Nib based interface now.

.Nib based interface is a "cocoa" interface. It will behave in the same way as most cocoa app does.

From what I've read, it uses a nib for everything except for the main window. Grrr.....

(I'm pissed because brushed metal is really really easy to turn off on nibs)

[gregorypierce]

I'll just add in my 0.02 and say that its nigh impossible to download the latest seed right now - in none of the prior betas have I ever gotten to the point where I couldn't download from ANY of the apple ADC servers.

I guess from all this popularity one can assume that this is going to be a popular release - though having to waste days waiting to download the software is a real pisser :mad:

[daveL]

Originally posted by gregorypierce
I'll just add in my 0.02 and say that its nigh impossible to download the latest seed right now - in none of the prior betas have I ever gotten to the point where I couldn't download from ANY of the apple ADC servers.

I guess from all this popularity one can assume that this is going to be a popular release - though having to waste days waiting to download the software is a real pisser :mad:
I agree. Here you pay for an ADC membership, so you can have access to this stuff in a timely manner, but Apple doesn't bring on enough servers and/or bandwidth to service the load. They certainly shouldn't be surprised by the demand. Frankly, I didn't think they would put it up for downloading; I was expecting CDs in the mail, which may still be true. Like you, I've tried every site over and over again. I've never been able to get more than 2 KB/sec, so it would take several days to do the download, assuming no problems. The sites in the US seem to be simply rejecting new connections. The other sites are allowing them, even though the download rates are < 1 KB/sec. That just doesn't make sense to me. Why allow new users to log in if you can't support reasonable download rates? You end up with a large number of *very* slow connections, so nobody is happy and lots of folks just give up, so the whole excercise is a waste of time and bandwidth.

You would think they would be a bit smarter about this.

[JLL]

Originally posted by daveL
I agree. Here you pay for an ADC membership, so you can have access to this stuff in a timely manner, but Apple doesn't bring on enough servers and/or bandwidth to service the load.

This is the first time an ADC download doesn't max out my connection - Apple usually have enough servers and bandwidth for this.

Edit: Perhaps I should read my posts before submitting :-)

[AppleMatt]

hmmm...hopefully when ADC members are actually able to download it a few more details will trickle in...it's exciting stuff.

AppleMatt

[richard5mith]

I must have just been lucky because I was in there early, I downloaded all three files at the same time, each one getting around 100k/sec.

[Rincewind42]

Originally posted by Adam Betts
Nope, Finder is not cocoa but it do use .Nib based interface now.

.Nib based interface is a "cocoa" interface. It will behave in the same way as most cocoa app does.

Nibs are not the 'cocoa' interface, they are simply a resource file type. There are Carbon nibs & Cocoa nibs. The Finder is carbon based, and all the nibs in it are carbon nibs.

Metallifizer will have to be revved to add/remove the metal look from Carbon apps. I suspect the only reason why it wasn't already made to work with Carbon apps is because the user experience wouldn't be uniform (not all Carbon apps support Metal, but if the app supports Metal, then it supports removing it als0).

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by Rincewind42
Nibs are not the 'cocoa' interface, they are simply a resource file type. There are Carbon nibs & Cocoa nibs. The Finder is carbon based, and all the nibs in it are carbon nibs.

I know they aren't real cocoa but they looks more like one now than before.

[sergeantmudd]

I registered as ADC member awhile ago for the developer tools, but I didn't pay anything. If you pay, do you get a seed of Panther?

[Catfish_Man]

Originally posted by sergeantmudd
I registered as ADC member awhile ago for the developer tools, but I didn't pay anything. If you pay, do you get a seed of Panther?

Yeah, it costs a bundle though.

[merges]

ADC Select membership is only $500 per year, and you get a lot of great benefits (including seeds of the OS to develop with, a number of discounts, as well as regular mailings and release copies of the OS).

It's not that expensive, really...

[daveL]

Originally posted by sergeantmudd
I registered as ADC member awhile ago for the developer tools, but I didn't pay anything. If you pay, do you get a seed of Panther?
This brings up an interesting point. I hinted at this a while ago, but nobody bit. Anyway, I paid for a Select membership about a month ago for 500 bucks a year. I get a number of benefits, one of which is access to developer betas, both by download and by a monthly mailing. It's all described in detail on the ADC site. As part of the Select membership I get *5* developer seeding software keys. This means I get everything that comes out, both GM and beta. I'm aload to give my *4* extra ADC download assets to other ADC members. As far as I know, these ADC members don't have to be paying ADC memebers, although I don't know this for sure. So, I thought I might interest other non-paying ADC members in my spare ADC download assets. If it works as I think it does, and that would have to be verified, I can transfer my download assets to non-paying ADC members, and you would be able to down load *all* versions of OS X, developer tools, apps (not for fee ones), etc. There's also some trial software available, like WebObjects releases.

Other than testing that this idea is legal, is anyone interested? I'd like to recoup a small fee, if everyone thinks that is reasonable, to help me defray my membership fees (I'm an individual). I was thinking $30 for the year for each download asset. This is much cheaper than the Panther upgrade price, so it seems like a good deal all round (which makes me wonder if there's a legal hitch to it ). I'm not trying to scam anyone, and I'm not trying to bootleg Apple software. I'm perfectly willing to try this out with an ADC freebie, with no money invovled, to see if it's feasable, legal, acceptable and whatnot.

[jaykk]

Looks like ADC select is worth $500 but I have a question. How does it compare to ADC Mailings for $200? Does anyone have ADC Mailings alone? It also includes GM version ( a US$129 value) plus monthly developer CD/Sample codes etc. Does the Mailings comes with panther beta/XCode etc? I just wanna try XCode mainly. Is it worth it?

ADC Select Membership Benifits ( US$500)
--------------------------------------------
One-year program membership with access to a SELECT bundle of technical and marketing benefits, including:
Mac OS X and Mac OS X Developer Tools on CD-ROM
One (1) ADC Select Mailing Subscription
Two (2) Technical Support Incidents
ADC Software Seeding Program
ADC Compatibility Labs Access
ADC Select Technical and Business Discounts

ADC Mailing ( US$199 )
------------------------------
One-year subscription to a monthly developer mailing. A subscription to the ADC Mailing delivers current technical and marketing information, Developer Tools, Mac OS X GM releases, the Developer CD/DVD Series (technical documentation, sample code, development kits), and other development resources.

[HornetOSX]

Originally posted by daveL
This brings up an interesting point. I hinted at this a while ago, but nobody bit. Anyway, I paid for a Select membership about a month ago for 500 bucks a year. I get a number of benefits, one of which is access to developer betas, both by download and by a monthly mailing. It's all described in detail on the ADC site. As part of the Select membership I get *5* developer seeding software keys. This means I get everything that comes out, both GM and beta. I'm aload to give my *4* extra ADC download assets to other ADC members. As far as I know, these ADC members don't have to be paying ADC memebers, although I don't know this for sure. So, I thought I might interest other non-paying ADC members in my spare ADC download assets. If it works as I think it does, and that would have to be verified, I can transfer my download assets to non-paying ADC members, and you would be able to down load *all* versions of OS X, developer tools, apps (not for fee ones), etc. There's also some trial software available, like WebObjects releases.

Other than testing that this idea is legal, is anyone interested? I'd like to recoup a small fee, if everyone thinks that is reasonable, to help me defray my membership fees (I'm an individual). I was thinking $30 for the year for each download asset. This is much cheaper than the Panther upgrade price, so it seems like a good deal all round (which makes me wonder if there's a legal hitch to it ). I'm not trying to scam anyone, and I'm not trying to bootleg Apple software. I'm perfectly willing to try this out with an ADC freebie, with no money invovled, to see if it's feasable, legal, acceptable and whatnot.

I'm willing to be the guinea pig to test if it is "OK" e-mail me clublights<AT>mac.com

[vrapan]

Hi DaveL,

Please count me in for one of your spare keys. If your idea works out I would be willing to pay for one of the spare seeding keys.

My email is vrapan@yahoo.com

Let me know when you have figured it out... I wouldn't mind helping out to find out about the feasibility and / or legality of the matter. One question does the paid ADC gives you the right to download GM software??? Sounds pretty generous of Apple.

Thanks

[vrapan]

ADC Software Seed Key
An "ADC Software Seed Key" is required to access the seed software. Each Select and Premier membership includes five (5) ADC Software Seed keys that are assigned to the owner of the account. The owner of the Select or Premier account may then transfer the additional ADC Software Seed Keys to other ADC members in order to download software. The ADC Software Seed keys can be used as often as needed, and they are valid for the duration of the original owner's membership.

It seems that transferring the keys is perfectly legal. All the person needs is an ADC and no other restrictions.

[Snowster]

Hi DaveL

I would be interested. Contact me by email: vidgrenm@yahoo.com. I am a ADC student member, so basically the transfer of that seed key will be instant.

This is what Apple has to say about the subject, please note that they are referring to 'other ADC members inyour company' - dont know if that makes any difference...

-Snowster

------------------------------------------

Q: I want to give others on my development team access to the "Download Software" area of the ADC Member Site. What should I do?

A: If you are a Select or Premier member, you have five (5) ADC Software Seed Keys assigned to your account. You may transfer a key to other ADC members in your company (please see the ADC Terms and Conditions (pdf) for eligibility requirements on sharing confidential information).

To transfer a key, Log In to the ADC Member Site, go to your "Manage Assets" area, Click on the Transfer button for ADC Software Seed Key, and enter the e-mail address of the person you would like to entitle with software seed access. They must be registered in our Online (free) program for the transfer to take place. Once you have transfered a key, this recipient will have immediate access to the software seeds in the "Download Software" area and will receive the next "ADC Seed Update" notice.

[Kid Red]

Originally posted by sergeantmudd
I registered as ADC member awhile ago for the developer tools, but I didn't pay anything. If you pay, do you get a seed of Panther?

Or be a beta tester in their Apple Seed program. However, they aren't accepting additional applications currently.

[daveL]

Originally posted by vrapan
Hi DaveL,

Please count me in for one of your spare keys. If your idea works out I would be willing to pay for one of the spare seeding keys.

My email is vrapan@yahoo.com

Let me know when you have figured it out... I wouldn't mind helping out to find out about the feasibility and / or legality of the matter. One question does the paid ADC gives you the right to download GM software??? Sounds pretty generous of Apple.

Thanks
Just to clarify, the ADC download / seed site has beta and GM images for OS X and the development tools. You don't have access to iLife, as an example, or Final Cut. The software keys also don't get you the mailings, i.e. CDs, just downloads. The original WWDC Panther CDs were never put up on the ADC site for download, only the most recent beta. I'll be contacting those that are interested in the next day or two via email.

Thanks!

[Linc]

Originally posted by daveL
This brings up an interesting point. I hinted at this a while ago, but nobody bit. Anyway, I paid for a Select membership about a month ago for 500 bucks a year. I get a number of benefits, one of which is access to developer betas, both by download and by a monthly mailing. It's all described in detail on the ADC site. As part of the Select membership I get *5* developer seeding software keys. This means I get everything that comes out, both GM and beta. I'm aload to give my *4* extra ADC download assets to other ADC members. As far as I know, these ADC members don't have to be paying ADC memebers, although I don't know this for sure. So, I thought I might interest other non-paying ADC members in my spare ADC download assets. If it works as I think it does, and that would have to be verified, I can transfer my download assets to non-paying ADC members, and you would be able to down load *all* versions of OS X, developer tools, apps (not for fee ones), etc. There's also some trial software available, like WebObjects releases.

Other than testing that this idea is legal, is anyone interested? I'd like to recoup a small fee, if everyone thinks that is reasonable, to help me defray my membership fees (I'm an individual). I was thinking $30 for the year for each download asset. This is much cheaper than the Panther upgrade price, so it seems like a good deal all round (which makes me wonder if there's a legal hitch to it ). I'm not trying to scam anyone, and I'm not trying to bootleg Apple software. I'm perfectly willing to try this out with an ADC freebie, with no money invovled, to see if it's feasable, legal, acceptable and whatnot.


I'd be interested too, if there is still room. email is lstoll 'at' mac 'dot' com Cheers!

[oogje]

Hopefully I'm wrong but it's my understanding you can only transfer assets to fellow employees of the company you work for. Although this seems arbitrary I believe it assumes an employee has some sort of employee agreement in place with a responsible entity regarding company private information which (again presumably) the apple info is covered under.

So, read the Terms of your ADC membership and it's not clear email ADC for clarification. And if I'm wrong please give us a reference we can use. Thanks.

ber

[daveL]

Originally posted by oogje
Hopefully I'm wrong but it's my understanding you can only transfer assets to fellow employees of the company you work for. Although this seems arbitrary I believe it assumes an employee has some sort of employee agreement in place with a responsible entity regarding company private information which (again presumably) the apple info is covered under.

So, read the Terms of your ADC membership and it's not clear email ADC for clarification. And if I'm wrong please give us a reference we can use. Thanks.

ber
I just finished reading the fine print, and you are correct. I'm only allowed to share the seed keys with employees and contractors of the company I work for, which in this case is me. It's very specific about this. The other info on the ADC site doesn't mention this restriction; it only appears in the ADC T&C pdf.

Sorry. I didn't mean to get people excited over nohing, but ...

[oogje]

Perhaps you're in a position to hire people for say $1/year. I believe Caroline Kennedy works for the City of New York under a similar arrangement. Although you would think she could afford her own ADC seed membership.

ber

[daveL]

Originally posted by oogje
Perhaps you're in a position to hire people for say $1/year. I believe Caroline Kennedy works for the City of New York under a similar arrangement. Although you would think she could afford her own ADC seed membership.

ber
The problem there is I'm not incorporated or otherwise set up to handle employees. What ADC is requiring is a legal binding between the ADC member that agreed to the NDA and those with whom he shares his ADC assets.

[bitfactory]

the keys are useless right now - the servers are still not accepting new connections... after being a Select member for almost 4 years, this is the first time i've seen this happen... arrgg.

[AppleMatt]

No problem DaveL. When I read an earlier post I wondered.

I think we should all drop it, although I would have really liked the key (there's no way I can afford $500!!!), there's no point risking DaveL losing his ADC membership, Apple kicked someone yesterday because they tried to leak the latest Panther build.

AppleMatt

[daveL]

Originally posted by bitfactory
the keys are useless right now - the servers are still not accepting new connections... after being a Select member for almost 4 years, this is the first time i've seen this happen... arrgg.
I know what you mean. I sent an email to ADC last night to complain. All I've gotten back so far are automated, canned responses. I've heard others say, as you have, that this is very unusual, but what can be happening that makes it so hard for them to correct the problem / overload? Especially after 3 days!

[bitfactory]

Originally posted by daveL
I've heard others say, as you have, that this is very unusual, but what can be happening that makes it so hard for them to correct the problem / overload? Especially after 3 days!

that's the bizarre thing - i mean, even all the Jaguar updates saturated my cable line - EVERY update... i can't even get on the friggin box - unless you count Asia Pacific or Europe, but there's no way i'm waiting 302 hours for one disc image! :)

[daveL]

Originally posted by bitfactory
that's the bizarre thing - i mean, even all the Jaguar updates saturated my cable line - EVERY update... i can't even get on the friggin box - unless you count Asia Pacific or Europe, but there's no way i'm waiting 302 hours for one disc image! :)
What is also maddening is that there hasn't even been a staus message added saying what is going on, or when they expect things to improve. Just a simple message informing us so we don't continue to waste our time. I can't imagine the fact that a bunch of people are continually trying to start transfers in helping any. In situations like this, a little information goes a long way.

[gordyt]

Finally was able to get all of 7B21 downloaded. Installed on my 17" PB. All seems well except for one weird thing...

Address Book crashes every time I try to open it. I even tried temporarily removing the...

~/Library/Addresses
~/Library/Application Support/Address Book

...folders elsewhere and running it. Also tossed the prefs.

Has anyone else experienced this problem?

Any suggested fixes???

--gordon

P.S. - I did the the dialog box that lets me submit a report to Apple, which I did..

[scoop]

Originally posted by gordyt
Address Book crashes every time I try to open it.

It seems to be Bluetooth related. Doesn't matter if you switch it on or off in the prefs too.

[vrapan]

anyone has a clue where the system icons are? trying to find the file (systemicons.rsrc) but it is no where. any clue as to where they put them? thanks a lot

[gordyt]

Originally posted by scoop
It seems to be Bluetooth related. Doesn't matter if you switch it on or off in the prefs too.

Does anyone know if it is possible to temporarily remove all "references" to Bluetooth -- maybe my moving the bluetooth frameworks to a different folder?

I would love to see if that would work if someone could post a suggestion for a procedure.

--gordon

[jaedreth]

Has anyone tried trashing ~/Library/Cashes/ ?

You could do a find of bluetooth and make it check even invisible files, but I wouldn't recommend it. Does this behavior persist in a brand new user?

Jaedreth

[gordyt]

Hi Jaedreth,

About this...

Originally posted by jaedreth
Has anyone tried trashing ~/Library/Cashes/ ?

You could do a find of bluetooth and make it check even invisible files, but I wouldn't recommend it. Does this behavior persist in a brand new user?

Jaedreth

Thanks for the idea. I just tried the following:

1. toss the ~/Library/Caches folder
2. restart and log-in
3. open Address Book

Same thing - still crashes. Here is info from the first few lines of the crash log:

Date/Time: 2003-07-31 15:58:02 -0500
OS Version: 10.3 (Build 7B21)
Host: gordy12

Command: Address Book (/Applications/Address Book.app/Contents/MacOS/Address Book)
PID: 1542
Thread: 0

Exception: EXC_BAD_ACCESS (0x0001)
Codes: KERN_INVALID_ADDRESS (0x0001) at 0x4e534195

Thread 0 Crashed:
#0 0x9081c24c in objc_msgSend (objc_msgSend + 12)
#1 0x94041370 in IOBluetoothLocalDeviceAvailable (IOBluetoothLocalDeviceAvailable + 44)
#2 0x007c93c8 in fillBufferWithOctetsFromString (fillBufferWithOctetsFromString + 228)
#3 0x9081a840 in _objc_call_loads_for_image (_objc_call_loads_for_image + 192)
#4 0x8fe1849c in call_funcs_for_add_image (call_funcs_for_add_image + 140)
#5 0x8fe183d4 in call_registered_funcs_for_add_images_in_objects (call_registered_funcs_for_add_images_in_objects + 104)
#6 0x8fe182f4 in call_registered_funcs_for_add_images (call_registered_funcs_for_add_images + 28)

[jaedreth]

Send that to Apple if you haven't already.

Jaedreth

[gordyt]

Hi Jaedreth,

Originally posted by jaedreth
Send that to Apple if you haven't already.

Jaedreth

I filed a bug report and sent them a description of everything I've tried along with copies of the crash log and also a complete system profiler report.

If you can think of anything else that would be helpful to them let me know and I'll send that as well.

--g

[edesignuk]

Just got my 'copy' ;) of Panther :D Install time....

[jaedreth]

Did you tell them what time the error occurred? If you send them crash logs, they need to know what date and time the issue occurred, else they're looking through tons of stuff unnecessarily.

Also, to try to get it working, have you tried to reinstall Panther?

Jaedreth

[gordyt]

Hi Jaedreth,


Originally posted by jaedreth
Did you tell them what time the error occurred? If you send them crash logs, they need to know what date and time the issue occurred, else they're looking through tons of stuff unnecessarily.

Also, to try to get it working, have you tried to reinstall Panther?

Jaedreth

I did tell them the date and time. I have not tried to reinstall Panter yet, but was considering doing that this weekend. When I installed the 7B21 update, I used the option that moves your current system to the "Previous Systems" folder and preserves user settings.

I'm considering doing a complete wipe-and-install; however, I want to make sure I will be able to restore all of my user data correctly. I use Retropect for backups of /User, so I have everything saved...

Since my user account was the first one added (user id 501).. I think if I do a clean install and then add my account in using the same information as before, that should be added again with user id 501.

Then I can reinstall Retrospect and restore my /Users folder.

At least that is my tentative plan... I know I will have to go and reinstall a bunch of apps as well.

Do you see any problems with that?

--g

[daveL]

Originally posted by gordyt
Hi Jaedreth,




I did tell them the date and time. I have not tried to reinstall Panter yet, but was considering doing that this weekend. When I installed the 7B21 update, I used the option that moves your current system to the "Previous Systems" folder and preserves user settings.

I'm considering doing a complete wipe-and-install; however, I want to make sure I will be able to restore all of my user data correctly. I use Retropect for backups of /User, so I have everything saved...

Since my user account was the first one added (user id 501).. I think if I do a clean install and then add my account in using the same information as before, that should be added again with user id 501.

Then I can reinstall Retrospect and restore my /Users folder.

At least that is my tentative plan... I know I will have to go and reinstall a bunch of apps as well.

Do you see any problems with that?

--g
Given that these are beta releases, I've been doing clean installs. All I bring over from Jag are docs, pics, music, etc. I *don't* restore my /User prefs; I set my preferences fresh with Panther after each install. It's a bit time consuming, but I get a better idea of what's new. I sync my bookmarks and such via my .Mac account.

I keep two partitions: One for Jag and one for Panther. My experience so far is that the more separation you have between the two, the less likely you are to have strange problems crop up.

HTH

[jaedreth]

Not only do you want to back up your entire Users folder, use all the same account info in the setup assistant, including longname and password, but short name is most important, but you have to be careful about how you put the files back.

In order to prevent issues, you want to go into your "new" user folder, and remove all of the folders in it, then add the "old" (backup) folders. Then you want to manually make sure your entire user folder has proper permissions for you, get info on your folder, and make sure owner is you and group is staff, apply to enclosed.

However:

You want to test the BlueTooth issue *before* you restore your backup. If it does work properly, it is possible putting back your old folders may cause the issue again. If it doesn't fix the issue, it's a bug in the OS itself, and you won't be able to fix it, so just put everything back.

I hope this is clear.

Jaedreth

[gordyt]

Hi Jaedreth,

Originally posted by jaedreth

You want to test the BlueTooth issue *before* you restore your backup. If it does work properly, it is possible putting back your old folders may cause the issue again. If it doesn't fix the issue, it's a bug in the OS itself, and you won't be able to fix it, so just put everything back.

I hope this is clear.

Jaedreth

Many thanks for the great info. I understand you perfectly. I'll try that this weekend and post the results in this forum. Hopefully we can track something down that will help others with the same problem.

--gordon

[gordyt]

Hi daveL,

Originally posted by daveL
I keep two partitions: One for Jag and one for Panther. My experience so far is that the more separation you have between the two, the less likely you are to have strange problems crop up.

HTH

This sounds like a reasonalble approach to take. Most of my preferences I wouldn't mind having to reset manually. I guess the main things I want to be sure to keep are:

1. email
2. keychain stuff
3. browser bookmarks
4. address book info (very important)

stuff like that (I'm probably overlooking something)

Application registration stuff I keep copies of so that's no problem.

--gordon

[daveL]

If your email is imap, and you keep everything on the mail server (including sent folder), then the mail app will simply download everything to your local mail folder. At least that's how it has worked for me. My /User folder is separate for each OS, so I don't have to worry about one version of the mail app messing up the other.

One thing I have noticed is if you open a file on your Jag disk, say a PDF, while your in Panther, when you go back to Jag and open it, preview will silently fail. If you bring up the context menu and look under "Open With", you'll see that the default app for the file has been changed to the Panther version, which isn't found, of course. You just need to select the Jag version to open it correctly.

HTH

[gordyt]

Greetings All!


Just finished a tedious exercise in futility! :-(

Wiped the hard drive on my 17"PB and did a clean intall of 7B21. Logged in. Started Address Book...


...you guessed it! Still crashes.

--gordy

P.S. - I did send in the report to Apple.

[AppleMatt]

Originally posted by daveL
One thing I have noticed is if you open a file on your Jag disk, say a PDF, while your in Panther, when you go back to Jag and open it, preview will silently fail. If you bring up the context menu and look under "Open With", you'll see that the default app for the file has been changed to the Panther version, which isn't found, of course. You just need to select the Jag version to open it correctly.

Yep I had this problem, if you look at the console log though you'll see it is found, it just crashes on starting up (also logs a preview crash log)

If you get info on the file, expand the open with and change it back to Jaguars preview, you can then press the 'change all' button so you don't have to do it with every pdf/jpg/gif etc etc on your system

AppleMatt

[gordyt]

Greetings All!

A couple of bits 'o news....

Got an email from Apple. They said the Address Book crash is a known problem and they are working on it.

In the mean while...since I went back and did a clean install anyway (see earlier post), I figured I had nothing to lose by playing around...

If you don't need to use your Bluetooth for now, I found the following steps will resolve the Address Book problem. At least it did for me:

1. Book in to single-user mode (hold down cmd-s while booting).

2. Mount the filesystem:
/sbin/mount -uw /

3. Make a directory where you can temporarily store some system files. I created a "tmp" directory in my account's home directory:
mkdir /Users/gordy/tmp

4. Move these Bluetooth-related files to your temporary directory (note: replace the dest_dir with the one that you created in step 3):

mv /usr/sbin/blued dest_dir/.
mv /System/Library/Frameworks/IOBluetoothUI.framework dest_dir/.
mv /System/Library/CoreServices/BluetoothUIServer.app dest_dir/.

5. Load the GUI:
exit

After doing this I checked the /var/log/system.log and didn't see anything weird.

I ran Address Book. No problems. Ran iSync and reloaded everything from my .mac account. Also ran good.

Now I know I won't be able to use Bluetooth for now, but that is OK for me because I do not yet have any Bluetooth devices anyway.

If anyone else wants to try this that is having problems, I would be interested to find out if it works for them.

--gordy

[daveL]

AppleMatt:

I never checked the console log, so I didn't realize the Panther app was crashing, but it make perfect sense. Thanks.

gordyt:

I know it can't hurt to go to single user mode, but it seems a bit pedantic (not that that's a bad thing). Couldn't you just kill off the blued process, if it's running, and then moce the files? No big deal, either way. It's great that you found a work-around!

[gordyt]

Hi DaveL,

Originally posted by daveL
gordyt:

I know it can't hurt to go to single user mode, but it seems a bit pedantic (not that that's a bad thing). Couldn't you just kill off the blued process, if it's running, and then moce the files? No big deal, either way. It's great that you found a work-around!

It seemed as if there was another process that kept restarting the "blued" process as soon as it crashed. But I wasn't sure who kept trying to restart the blued process.

I initially did a bunch of searching to see if there was some configuration file that was starting it so I could edit that file to prevent it from even trying to start in the first place. But so far I haven't been able to figure out where that might be.

My first thoughts in just moving "blued" from its regular directory was that maybe whatever was trying to start it would complain about the file not being there and thus let me know which process was responsible....but nobody complained!

Oh, and I'm sure you are right about being able to just move it w/o single-user mode.

The motivation for single user mode was so that I could relocate the IOBluetoothUI.framework direcotory. When I tried to move it with the GUI up, the system wouldn't do it...

--g

[scoop]

Is there anyone else getting "Expired Version" errors when trying to start iSync on or after August 3rd?

[cnladd]

Originally posted by scoop
Is there anyone else getting "Expired Version" errors when trying to start iSync on or after August 3rd?

Starts up just fine and syncs without errors. I'm running Panther (7A202) with iSync 1.1 (v.95).

[daveL]

Originally posted by gordyt
Hi DaveL,



It seemed as if there was another process that kept restarting the "blued" process as soon as it crashed. But I wasn't sure who kept trying to restart the blued process.

I initially did a bunch of searching to see if there was some configuration file that was starting it so I could edit that file to prevent it from even trying to start in the first place. But so far I haven't been able to figure out where that might be.

My first thoughts in just moving "blued" from its regular directory was that maybe whatever was trying to start it would complain about the file not being there and thus let me know which process was responsible....but nobody complained!

Oh, and I'm sure you are right about being able to just move it w/o single-user mode.

The motivation for single user mode was so that I could relocate the IOBluetoothUI.framework direcotory. When I tried to move it with the GUI up, the system wouldn't do it...

--g
Undersatnd. I'm still getting used to the differences between a standard Unix system and OS X.

Anyway, on most Unix systems, a daemon process like blued will restart when it exits because there's an 'inittab' entry for the daemon that specifies "respawn". Of course, there can be external processes that will also restart stuff, but inittab:respawn is the Unix idiom for that function. Lots of folks have forgetten about this built-in gem and construct elaborate process monitoring schemes to keep ill-behaved/unreliable persistent processes running.

[youngbrahman]

Has anyone found a work around the iTunes crash when an iPod is present?

[cnladd]

Originally posted by daveL
Anyway, on most Unix systems, a daemon process like blued will restart when it exits because there's an 'inittab' entry for the daemon that specifies "respawn".

When I first saw the post about 'blued' respawning and the trouble with moving that directory, I quickly dropped into a terminal, went to /etc, and started looking for the inittab to help solve the problem. I keep forgetting that Mac OS X is BSD-based. ;)

Mac OS X is strange for me. I went from SunOS (BSD style init) and made the change to Solaris (SysVR4 style init.) Now I'm using Mac OS X. Having gotten used to it, not having an /etc/inittab is now weird.

[Juventuz]

Originally posted by youngbrahman
Has anyone found a work around the iTunes crash when an iPod is present?

I haven't experienced that problem yet.

What I'm experiencing is that the Trash won't empty when I click Empty Trash. I then have to open the trash and click on each icon and it will disappear.

[thebossisback]

I wonder if they will do that thing they did last year when you buy a Mac between to certain dates, they will sell you jaguar for $20

[vrapan]

I dont have an iPod but I have experienced that Trash problem also today Safari si crashing all the time I mean I am using Camino cause safari wont stay open for more than 5 minutes and some times it crashes as soon as i am trying to open it. didn't do that when i first put 7B21. I repaired permissions and restarted and it seemed to be doing better after that but it started again. Anyone having severe problems with Safari?

[gordyt]

Hi Scoop,

Originally posted by scoop
Is there anyone else getting "Expired Version" errors when trying to start iSync on or after August 3rd?

Yep! I'm getting those too. One thing: If I just select "Sync Now" from the little iSync menu in the upper-right portion of the menu bar, that seems to run OK. But when I select the "Open iSync.." option from the same menu, I get that error.

I'm hoping Apple will have an update in the next day or two!

--gordon

[cnladd]

Originally posted by Juventuz

What I'm experiencing is that the Trash won't empty when I click Empty Trash. I then have to open the trash and click on each icon and it will disappear.

Running 7A202 (still). That doesn't happen to me with the trash, but happens when unmounting volumes that appear on the desktop.

I drag the volume to the trash, but the icon doesn't leave the desktop. If left alone, it can sometimes take over a half hour before the Finder updates itself and removes the icon. However, if I click once on the icon, it vanishes.

Same thing happens if I manually 'umount' the volume from the command line.

[gordyt]

Hey Scoop,

Originally posted by scoop
Is there anyone else getting "Expired Version" errors when trying to start iSync on or after August 3rd?

I just got an email from Apple:


Please know that we've just posted a new beta seed version today that expires later.


But I wasn't able to find it when I logged into the developer site.

So if anyone finds where they posted it please let me know!

--gordon

[daveL]

gordyt:

I just checked all the segment dates, and they haven't changed. They're all July 28th. No new Panther directory on the ftp server, either. So, I don't see anything new. Sounds to me as though they would use Software Update for a fix like this. Why make people download new CD images?

HTH

[daveL]

gordyt:

No Software Update, either.

[gordyt]

Hi daveL,

I had sent an email into Apple this morning asking about where to download the iSync update. Just got a response saying they have forwarded my request to the engineering team. When I hear something back I'll post it.

--g

[gordyt]

Got this feedback from Apple:



Thank you for bringing this problem to our attention. We have received
feedback from engineering on your reported issue.

Please download the file via the URL below:

<http://aiusw.apple.com/ical_beta_test/ical_beta_test.dmg>

We hope this information helps you address the issue reported. Please do not hesitate to contact us again should you require any further assistance regarding this matter.

Thank you for your time and effort. Your help is greatly appreciated.


Problem is I can't get that link to work. I emailed them to ask about it and also to ask them to make sure they were addressing the expired iSync problem. If you look at the URL it references "ical_beta_test.dmg".

--g

[daveL]

Have to tried the 7B28 beta refresh, yet?

[gordyt]

Hi daveL,

Originally posted by daveL
Have to tried the 7B28 beta refresh, yet?

I'm still downloading it. Hopefully will have the install discs built by this afternoon and installed by this evening.

I'll let y'all know how it works out!

--g

[vrapan]

FASTER FASTER FASTER !!! How do they do it it seems like it uses a lot less RAM too my 12" PB with just 256 and it flies. Very stable for me at least safari mail and itunes printing and word that kept crashing on me with 7b21 are super stable - have 12 porgrams open and it is like i got nothing on... awesome!!!