Convincing friends to respect the mac platform?

[pagemap]

I am the odd one out in my circle of friends in that I own an iBook. They all are fairly hardcore PC people (we are all studying electrical engineering) and I can't seem to convince them of the mac's superiority.

I have shown them the G5 information and it's impressive gate length, etc and they are still unimpressed. Unfortunately I can't offer any real data on its performance since its not released yet. Most of my friends are of the mindset that OSX is for artists only and not engineers. I say why generalize, it's for anyone who enjoys computers. I don't really care waht they think - I am not going to stop using my mac on their behalf. I just am tired of having to defend my mac and why I use it. What tactics have you guys found most helpful in convincing your friends to give the mac a little respect?

[Mr. Anderson]

What about the terminal in OSX? If you're doing EE I'm sure you must have had some Unix work....

D

[mactastic]

Show 'em a G5:D

Seriously though, I don't think you want to try to prove the mac superior, because there are plenty of reasons to use one platform over the other, you just want to show parity, and that the mac is an equally good choice. Once people accept that, then they get to see how sweet the OS is and then they find out it's a unix machine...

[pagemap]

Originally posted by Mr. Anderson
What about the terminal in OSX? If you're doing EE I'm sure you must have had some Unix work....

D

They already know that. Thanks, though.

[wowoah]

All of the EECS professors at my school (Berkeley) use either Unix or Macs cuz they can't stand x86 chips and their inefficiency, as well as the volatility of Windows. That point usually gets me the most respect.

Of course, there're some people who are just stubbornly committed. My girlfriend is not in any way a computer geek, but she refuses to even consider a Mac to replace her eMachines P3 that's literally falling apart. Why? Because Macs are "weird" and she "doesn't like them" because they "work funny." Women. :p

[pagemap]

Originally posted by mactastic
Show 'em a G5:D

HAHA, most of my fellow students could care less about how the computer looks. I think aesthetics is part of the complete package - if I am going to spend a lot of money on a computer I better enjoy having it sit on my desk.

And I wish I had some solid data to show the G5's performance but until it's released looks are about its only selling point.

[jbomber]

i find that brandishing a 2x4 usually helps when people need convincing....

[mactastic]

Originally posted by pagemap
HAHA, most of my fellow students could care less about how the computer looks. I think aesthetics is part of the complete package - if I am going to spend a lot of money on a computer I better enjoy having it sit on my desk.

And I wish I had some solid data to show the G5's performance but until it's released looks are about its only selling point.

It should be out soon! Then you'll have some basis to argue from.

[pagemap]

Originally posted by wowoah
they can't stand x86 chips and their inefficiency

How are x86 chips inefficient (just curious)? Bear with me, I am still a freshman and havent got into my major classes yet. Is it because macs use RISC processors and PCs use CISC?

[edesignuk]

I wouldn't argue the Macs "superiority", both platforms have their merits, trying to claim one is better than the other will only end up with never ending arguments from both sides. The fact is both have their pros and cons, what you need to do is argue are the Macs pros. e.g. The G5 will be hugely powerful, the OS has a UNIX backbone, more secure, more stable etc, etc.

[wowoah]

How are x86 chips inefficient (just curious)? Bear with me, I am still a freshman and havent got into my major classes yet. Is it because macs use RISC processors and PCs use CISC?

That's a big factor in their inefficiency. Intel rushed their processor to market after IBM threatened to use a competing processor in their first PC back in the 80s. Intel knew that their instruction set was flawed, but they also never expected their processor to attain the popularity that it has today, predicting that it would eventually be replaced by a better-designed processor. Consequently, the modern Intel x86 instruction set requires 2-3x more instructions to perform the same function as a RISC processor, which is why a lower-clocked RISC processor can perform as well as a higher-clocked x86. My professor used the (somewhat extreme) analogy that the PPC is like a Civic and the Pentium is like a BMW, except that the Civic is driving on a huge 6-lane superhighway and the BMW is on a two-lane rural road. In the end, the Pentium *needs* the extra MHz to achieve the same performance as the PPC.

Add to that the fact that the x86 instruction set is riddled with inconsistencies (like varying opcode and instruction lengths) and such, which creates bottlenecks in the processor and slows instruction execution, and you have a processor that is hated by the computer intelligencia.

Don't worry, you'll have this all drilled into you in your machine language class :)

[idea_hamster]

Some things to consider:

Scott Kelby's book (http://www.scottkelbybooks.com/new/MacTruth.html)

An exhautively researched site (http://www.macvspc.info)

Also, ask them to add up all the time they spend starting up and shutting down their computers. Then show them your "uptime" stat. in terminal.

And remember, just like some people will never be convinced that they consistently date people who are bad for them, some people will never be convinced that they choose sub-standard computers.

After all, a random reinforcement schedule is far more addictive than a regular one. That's my theory on why so many people use PC's.

[pagemap]

Originally posted by wowoah
That's a big factor in their inefficiency. Intel rushed their processor to market after IBM threatened to use a competing processor in their first PC back in the 80s. Intel knew that their instruction set was flawed, but they also never expected their processor to attain the popularity that it has today, predicting that it would eventually be replaced by a better-designed processor. Consequently, the modern Intel x86 instruction set requires 2-3x more instructions to perform the same function as a RISC processor, which is why a lower-clocked RISC processor can perform as well as a higher-clocked x86. My professor used the (somewhat extreme) analogy that the PPC is like a Civic and the Pentium is like a BMW, except that the Civic is driving on a huge 6-lane superhighway and the BMW is on a two-lane rural road. In the end, the Pentium *needs* the extra MHz to achieve the same performance as the PPC.

Add to that the fact that the x86 instruction set is riddled with inconsistencies (like varying opcode and instruction lengths) and such, which creates bottlenecks in the processor and slows instruction execution, and you have a processor that is hated by the computer intelligencia.

Don't worry, you'll have this all drilled into you in your machine language class :)

Thanks. Do both current AMD and Intel chips still have these flaws? One would think that they would be removed these flaws or found out a way around them by now. Also how are RISC chips simpler than CISC? What makes them more efficient?

[pagemap]

Originally posted by idea_hamster
After all, a random reinforcement schedule is far more addictive than a regular one. That's my theory on why so many people use PC's.

Huh? Please elaborate on this. Thanks. This could prove to be a great card to play. :)

[tazo]

I am in the same boat as the original poster, all my friends are pc users, and despise apple (although one agrees the iPod is the best mp3 player..). I often get the blanket pc user statement "they aren't upgradeable", or "macs suck", and to this I usually just laugh. The best way I have found to get to a pc users heart, is to mention drivers. There is no way they never have to install drivers.... :)

;)

[wowoah]

Thanks. Do both current AMD and Intel chips still have these flaws? One would think that they would be removed these flaws or found out a way around them by now. Also how are RISC chips simpler than CISC? What makes them more efficient?

I'm not totally acquainted with AMD's processor technology, but from what I do know, they use an independent instruction set, but use a front-end to convert Intel x86 instructions to AMD instructions, which ultimately results in the same problem. The reason Intel can't simply remove these flaws is that the instruction set forms the very basis of all computer software programmed for a system. If Intel came out with a whole new processor with a whole new instruction set, every single PC software manufacturer would have to rewrite their software from the ground up to support it. This is exactly why the 68040 --> PowerPC migration was so difficult and long for Apple, because 680x0 processors used a different instruction set than the PPC, requiring programs to be completely rewritten. Luckily Apple only had 5% of computer users to migrate; imagine having to convert the entire world of Intel users.

As for what makes RISC more efficient, there's no real easy way to answer this without going in depth into machine language and such. There're lots of factors (many of which aren't coming to me right now), but the biggest one which I can think of right now is the non-standard instruction length. PPC processors and other RISC processors employ a standard instruction length, which means that a machine language instruction to the processor will be 32 bits long, no exceptions. This makes processing very easy, since the processor just needs to bite off the program in 32 bit chunks to process. Intel's language, however, does not have an instruction length standard, which (as you can imagine) makes processing machine code much more frustrating and slow.

Another factor is the fact that the RISC instruction set is "reduced" (hence the acronym, Reduced Instruction Set Computing.) We studied MIPS in class so I can only really relate to that, but PPC is supposed to be very similar. Basically, in a RISC processor, every single operation that can be possibly done is reduced to a small set of 30 or 40 very basic operations (like add, subtract, shift bits, store, read, etc.) These operations are then optimized to be incredibly speed efficient. Intel, however, has hundreds of operations, which makes programming incredibly difficult and processor design incredibly complex. As a result, the RISC processor is faster, simpler, and more efficient (thus consuming less energy and generating less heat.)

Hope this helps.

[jayscheuerle]

Your iBook is better because it runs OSX.

As an added bonus, it's has superior industrial design and will retain its resale value better.

But it's mostly about OSX. If they prefer XP or whatever, that's fine. Some people like Hershey's more than Belgian chocolates. You can't argue with personal taste. You really can't argue with ignorance either.

Heck, they're probably secretly jealous anyhow! :D

[caveman_uk]

There's this guy at work who thought I was stupid when I first bought my ibook. To be fair he'd used the really old macs and the portables you couldn't plug into a projector so he was a bit bitter. Anyway, his mother who had a really old mac just upgraded to a new shiny imac. He tried to persuade her not to but she knows what she likes (clever mum that one). Now this guys tried out his mums new imac he actually says it's really nice and he would even consider buying an apple :eek: Well you could have knocked me down with a feather when he said that.

The moral: Let them use it for a bit. People won't make the leap 'cos they're scared and feel comfortable with what they know (even if it sucks and they know it). Once folks try out a mac they generally get hooked. Unless they're gamers in which case they say 'Hmm...nice. Does it play counterstrike?'

[pagemap]

I am actually a recent switcher. I was initially worried that I wouldn’t have all the apps I need but honestly with the help of versiontracker.com and Google I have found everything I need. I think basically the same software (functionality-wise) is available for both PCs and macs, but with PCs there is 10x the selection and most of it is crap. For instance I needed a terminal emulator and zterm works great where on the PC I used HyperTerminal. I used winamp a lot on the PC and now I'm hooked on itunes. If you are willing to put the effort into switching like I did I think most people would be happier using their computers in the long run. Just my $0.02.

[pagemap]

Originally posted by wowoah
I'm not totally acquainted with AMD's processor technology, but from what I do know, they use an independent instruction set, but use a front-end to convert Intel x86 instructions to AMD instructions, which ultimately results in the same problem. The reason Intel can't simply remove these flaws is that the instruction set forms the very basis of all computer software programmed for a system. If Intel came out with a whole new processor with a whole new instruction set, every single PC software manufacturer would have to rewrite their software from the ground up to support it. This is exactly why the 68040 --> PowerPC migration was so difficult and long for Apple, because 680x0 processors used a different instruction set than the PPC, requiring programs to be completely rewritten. Luckily Apple only had 5% of computer users to migrate; imagine having to convert the entire world of Intel users.

As for what makes RISC more efficient, there's no real easy way to answer this without going in depth into machine language and such. There're lots of factors (many of which aren't coming to me right now), but the biggest one which I can think of right now is the non-standard instruction length. PPC processors and other RISC processors employ a standard instruction length, which means that a machine language instruction to the processor will be 32 bits long, no exceptions. This makes processing very easy, since the processor just needs to bite off the program in 32 bit chunks to process. Intel's language, however, does not have an instruction length standard, which (as you can imagine) makes processing machine code much more frustrating and slow.

Another factor is the fact that the RISC instruction set is "reduced" (hence the acronym, Reduced Instruction Set Computing.) We studied MIPS in class so I can only really relate to that, but PPC is supposed to be very similar. Basically, in a RISC processor, every single operation that can be possibly done is reduced to a small set of 30 or 40 very basic operations (like add, subtract, shift bits, store, read, etc.) These operations are then optimized to be incredibly speed efficient. Intel, however, has hundreds of operations, which makes programming incredibly difficult and processor design incredibly complex. As a result, the RISC processor is faster, simpler, and more efficient (thus consuming less energy and generating less heat.)

Hope this helps.

That does help. I can't wait to get into some of these classes. Unfortunately I have another year of prerequisites such as your usual calc, physics, etc before I really start on the EE stuff.

[G4scott]

Rule 1 of arguing Mac vs PC: Don't be a zealot.

You have to have lots of details (which I think you've already done) on Apple's hardware and software before trying to argue a point with hardcore PC users.

Make sure you know of the merits of using a Mac over a PC, and emphasize them. Also, be willing to accept that the PC is better in some areas, because believe it or not, it is (like for use as a door stop, and boat anchor...)

First, instead of trying to convince these guys that the Mac is better, just try to get them to accept the Mac. Inform them of the benefits, and don't have a "PC's suck" attitude.

My friends will jokingly say "Macs suck!", but when it comes time to do projects, they all want to work with me, because they've seen what I've done with my Mac, that they could only dream of doing with their PC's.

It really depends on what your friends are like, and remember that there are, and will always be die hard, anti-Mac, PC zealots out there, and be willing to accept the fact that your friends may be of this type. But that's ok, nobody's perfect ;)

[Coca-Cola]

Don't worry about what people say. Just enjoy your Mac. I once had an awesome BMX bike. It was all chrome and very cool looking. But it wasn't a cool brand name like "Diamondback" or "Kuwahara". So, people would always try to tear me down about it. It wasn't a huffy or anything, just a sweet bike. I let people convince me to be ashamed of my bike. I stoped enjoying it. I really regret that. Now that I think about it, those other kids were just jealous. Damn them for being mean, but damn me for listening to them and letting them ruin something I enjoy.


:)

[idea_hamster]

Originally posted by pagemap
Huh? Please elaborate on this. Thanks. This could prove to be a great card to play. :)
It's my understanding that conditioned behavior in animals is most effective when done with a random positive reinforcement schedule rather than a regular one. Which means if you want a pigeon to peck a button from time to time, hook it up to food (one peck, one pellet -- every time: regular reinforcement) but if you want a pigeon to be fixated on pecking the button, hook it up so that it gives a food pellet every now and then.

This works equally well with people: it's the basis for gambling addiction (and, I suppose golf -- my short game's pretty random!).

I think that using a mac is more of a regular positive reinforcement mechanism, whereas using windows is more random, and therefore more mesmerizing. For example, when I was getting my Dell laptop (a millstone from work) to connect to the internet, it took most of an afternoon. Do I know what the ultimate solution was? No -- I just know that I got it to work. No reward; no reward; no reward; *Reward!*

I may be off base, but the greater arbitrariness of the windows system may be what draws some people.

[Stelliform]

What about the X windows support in OSX? I am a Comp Sci Grad and nothing shuts my friends up faster than UNIX under the hood and the ability to run X apps.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by pagemap
I am the odd one out in my circle of friends in that I own an iBook. They all are fairly hardcore PC people (we are all studying electrical engineering) and I can't seem to convince them of the mac's superiority.

I have shown them the G5 information and it's impressive gate length, etc and they are still unimpressed. Unfortunately I can't offer any real data on its performance since its not released yet. Most of my friends are of the mindset that OSX is for artists only and not engineers. I say why generalize, it's for anyone who enjoys computers. I don't really care waht they think - I am not going to stop using my mac on their behalf. I just am tired of having to defend my mac and why I use it. What tactics have you guys found most helpful in convincing your friends to give the mac a little respect?

man , that's a tough crowd and traditionally a PC crowd...i still think artists tend toward macs so much that i can see why engineers don't think it's for the sciences

if the PC did not exist tomorrow, they would have to look at the mac and that's the only way they could really respect it...until then, enjoy your ibook and let them think their PC boxes are the best thing around

i use my ibook and i fix PCs...but actually, that makes sense;)

[wowoah]

What about the X windows support in OSX? I am a Comp Sci Grad and nothing shuts my friends up faster than UNIX under the hood and the ability to run X apps.

Werd :P

As an EE major, you'll soon understand just how orgasmic having native X-win support will be. :D

[tazo]

Originally posted by G4scott

My friends will jokingly say "Macs suck!", but when it comes time to do projects, they all want to work with me, because they've seen what I've done with my Mac, that they could only dream of doing with their PC's.


"You did that on a computer?"
-Old Apple commercial...

sorry I couldnt resist :p

[G4scott]

Originally posted by tazo
"You did that on a computer?"
-Old Apple commercial...

sorry I couldnt resist :p

I remembered a commercial like that...

And really, that's what it was like.

I even had a teacher say that when I handed in 140 notecards, printed from my laser printer... Everyone though I was weird, but hey, who's the fool that spent all night writing every single card? It wasn't me :cool:

Do you guys ever feel that sometimes, the stuff you do is so, geeky, that you sometimes have to slow down so people can understand what you do? Or do you often get that sarcastic "I can't believe you did that with a computer" look?

It happens to me all the time...

[pagemap]

Originally posted by G4scott
I remembered a commercial like that...

And really, that's what it was like.

I even had a teacher say that when I handed in 140 notecards, printed from my laser printer... Everyone though I was weird, but hey, who's the fool that spent all night writing every single card? It wasn't me :cool:

Do you guys ever feel that sometimes, the stuff you do is so, geeky, that you sometimes have to slow down so people can understand what you do? Or do you often get that sarcastic "I can't believe you did that with a computer" look?

It happens to me all the time...

YES! All the freaking time! Such as when I trying to do some work on another person's computer and they are hovering over me watching what I am doing and all they hear is click, click, click, click 300 times per minute. The thing I hear most often in this situation is wow you're working so quickly. I think many geeks are more productive than the average worker, so we should only have to work seven hours a day, since we cram more work into an hour.

And hey, I can't help it if I think almost as fast as I can use the computer. One of the reasons I like the mac is because I feel I can use it more efficiently, so I can use the computer almost as quickly as I can think.

[Powerbook G5]

Last year in my computer technology class (centered around Win XP systems) we were learning how to take apart, upgrade, and rebuild a typical Windows box. It was a mess and my teacher was explaining how frustrating it can be but how much easier it is now compared to 10 years ago, not to mention forgetting about attempting a laptop...the next day I brought in my PowerBook... "As you can see *pops the two keyboard clips* I now have full access to my laptop...*pops out the screw* now I am removing the heat shied, the processor, and the RAM...there goes the hard drive...all right, now let me replace them" 10 minutes later everyone was staring with their mouths hanging open. Then, we had to prepare this report on designing the ultimate PC in which we are given a list of specs we needed to achieve such as calculations per second, RAM expansion, floating point, being able to run certain programs, etc...I turned in a nice 60 page project report on why the ultimate PC is a dual processor PowerMac and backed it up with so much research that my computer teacher ended up with two PowerMacs by the end of the semester saying he could no longer justify being against a Mac...and this was after he found out I was a Mac user and insisting I was somehow not educated on the "correct" platform. Damn I miss the class, so many opportunities to calmly take the arguments against the Mac and basically destroy their case with fact after fact until I ended up converting the professor himself.

[tazo]

Originally posted by pagemap
YES! All the freaking time! Such as when I trying to do some work on another person's computer and they are hovering over me watching what I am doing and all they hear is click, click, click, click 300 times per minute. The thing I hear most often in this situation is wow you're working so quickly. I think many geeks are more productive than the average worker, so we should only have to work seven hours a day, since we cram more work into an hour.

And hey, I can't help it if I think almost as fast as I can use the computer. One of the reasons I like the mac is because I feel I can use it more efficiently, so I can use the computer almost as quickly as I can think.

Ironically a society that says time=money, people who do work more efficiently, i.e. more quickly, are labeled as geeks or 'addicts' ;) :rolleyes:

[legion]

If you want to convince your x86 friends that your Mac is the superior machine the easiest thing is to let them borrow it for 24 hours. Any technophile will play with any new piece of technology (good or bad) and in my experience EEs are all technophiles (if not they really need to change their major.) If it is the better machine for them, then that's all you'll have to do. If it isn't, then no wasted breath or effort on your part and you should both let the issue pass. I'm assuming you're friends with these people and if so this should not be a dividing issue; it's just computing platforms, folks. If they aren't friends, who cares? And finally, if they are friends and the insulting of your choices is bugging you, tell them to lay off and be the better person (interpersonal skills will always be handy in life-- more so than any computing platform.)

As for the term wintel, if you go to a tech school and are in a science or engineering degree, there's a good chance you already have either a dual-boot or a linux machine. Kernel tweaking is one of the bonuses of being a CS or EE student (plus building an embedded system with linux for no cost is a wonderous experience.)

[xmad]

Just send them a virus

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by tazo
Ironically a society that says time=money, people who do work more efficiently, i.e. more quickly, are labeled as geeks or 'addicts' ;) :rolleyes: ehh, efficient workers aren't labelled geeks; not derisively. uncommunicative workers are, efficient or not.

i have been called a geek for being productive (and attached to) my computer. however, being a reasonably communicative and socially adept human (not very, but somewhat, mind you), this label is more a designation of honor, a name tossed at me with envy, with the unspoken, "damn, i wish i had a clue what I were doing when work on that thing too!"

it's not ironic. geekiness has no intrinsic relation to efficiency. and vice versa.

boy, i thought i was posting in the geek thread for a second there...

[groovebuster]

Originally posted by wowoah
My girlfriend is not in any way a computer geek, but she refuses to even consider a Mac to replace her eMachines P3 that's literally falling apart. Why? Because Macs are "weird" and she "doesn't like them" because they "work funny." Women. :p

That sounds very familiar! :D My wife refused to use Macs for a very long time. But after she had to work on a Mac for a while (Mac OS X) because there was no Windows-Box around, things changed dramatically. She needed a new computer (the old W2000 was... well too long of a story to tell) and I wanted to order a Windows XP system for her. So I talked to her to decide which specs she would like to finally place the order. She was behaving weird and was always saying stuff like "I don't know so far. Can't we decide another day?" But I was forcing her to tell me why, because she needed badly a new machine for her studies and papers and the money was burning in my pocket. Then she blushed and said: "Actually, would it be possible that I get a Mac?" I can tell you, my jaw dropped! :D

Since then she has an iMac and is very happy with it. And if ever you ask her about Windows, she tells you that she would never go back, because she thinks now that Windows "works funny" and is "weird"...

:)

groovebuster

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by legion
If you want to convince your x86 friends that your Mac is the superior machine the easiest thing is to let them borrow it for 24 hours. Any technophile will play with any new piece of technology (good or bad) and in my experience EEs are all technophiles (if not they really need to change their major.) If it is the better machine for them, then that's all you'll have to do. If it isn't, then no wasted breath or effort on your part and you should both let the issue pass. I'm assuming you're friends with these people and if so this should not be a dividing issue; it's just computing platforms, folks. If they aren't friends, who cares? And finally, if they are friends and the insulting of your choices is bugging you, tell them to lay off and be the better person (interpersonal skills will always be handy in life-- more so than any computing platform.)

As for the term wintel, if you go to a tech school and are in a science or engineering degree, there's a good chance you already have either a dual-boot or a linux machine. Kernel tweaking is one of the bonuses of being a CS or EE student (plus building an embedded system with linux for no cost is a wonderous experience.)

watch what happens to many techie EEs over time...with the help of the computer INDUSTRY which is profit driven

many go from being happy being on the technical side, but to move up that means being into sales as in a sales engineer...and becoming an MBA or gaining a set of similar skills...and wearing a suit and actually gaining social skills...and being a darn good cold call telemarketer...yikes...i have seen this transition very often and though the money is much better than as a regular engineer, happiness is something that becomes a thing of the past

[idea_hamster]

Originally posted by xmad
Just send them a virus
A grim solution -- especially since there's no reason to do this on purpose. Eventually, someone else will do it completely malice-free. Then, if one is the type to point and snicker and say "Told you so", well....