MacMerc: Apple's LCD Dead Pixel Policy Published

[patrick0brien]

-All

Published by MacMerc - the unreleased Official Apple Pixel Policy regarding funky pixels.

Good knowledge for the hip pocket when looking at a dead pixel.

Get it quick before Apple Legal catches on...

MacMerc: Apple's Pixel Policy (http://macmerc.com/pixel_policy.html)

Note: I posted this not to stir a pot of "Apple's ripping us off" - All LCD's have dead or funky pixels - they just might not be wrong enough to make out. There is no such thing as a perfect LCD. It's just good knowledge to have if you have many funky pixels wether you will be wasting your time trying to get a new display.

[Kwyjibo]

hmm i feel luck my new powerbook doesn't have from what I can tell.

[Ambrose Chapel]

thanks patrickObrien. i have 1 stuck blue pixel in my tibook..it's annoying but i dont notice it too much.

my parents are in the market for an LCD and my dad is leaning towards the Apple 17"..i'll send this to him.

[robbieduncan]

I checked my Samsung flatpanel in the shop before buying it (Micro Anvica TCR London). They were willing to open it and let me not buy it if there were dead pixels, but would not get another one and open it.

So I have a really nice 19" panel with no dead pixels or bright ones.

[themadchemist]

Good find! Much appreciated. The tolerance level seems reasonable, at least when compared to other manufacturers. I am of the understanding that anywhere up to 10 dead pixels in a monitor of that size is customary.

Funny thing...I was in Tweeter looking at TVs. The guy was talking about the LCDs--and we're talking 40 to 50 inches here. I asked him what the deal pixel tolerance of Sony, I think. He said he's never seen a pixel being dead, or that the tolerance was maybe 1 or 2.

Either he had no idea what he was talking about or he was flat out lying. Maybe he just hadn't paid close enough attention.

Sorry for getting off tangent, but it just reminded me of that. Some stores try to give the impression that they are going to sell you "perfect" LCDs, so when we hear about the defects, we sometimes get anxious or feel betrayed, when it's all just part of the manufacturing process.

[Powerbook G5]

I've noticed one dead pixel pop up on my PowerBook after 4 years, but you cannot even notice it unless you have a bright white winow or something opened up over it. Besides that, you cannot notice any fault. I think that is pretty good and don't feel burnt at all. I understand their policy, it would cost them a small fortune and drive up prices if they replaced every display that had a dead pixel.

[Mudbug]

you know, out of a few million pixels, 5 isn't really bad... it would cost lotsa dough to replace every panel if it were less than these specs.

[Billicus]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
I've noticed one dead pixel pop up on my PowerBook after 4 years, but you cannot even notice it unless you have a bright white winow or something opened up over it. Besides that, you cannot notice any fault. I think that is pretty good and don't feel burnt at all. I understand their policy, it would cost them a small fortune and drive up prices if they replaced every display that had a dead pixel.

I can see where you are coming from, but it would be annoying to have a combination of 8 Stuck or Dead Pixels and not have Apple want to do anything about it. I hope I don't getted burned when I buy a new PowerBook next week (assuming they come out next week of course - hint, hint Apple).

[AndrewMT]

Must be a slow rumor day.

[idea_hamster]

These numbers aren't too bad.

[Abe Simpson] I remember when TiBook screens had 1184x768 resolution ... back then if you had a dead pixel, you just rubbed some dirt on it ... kids today .... zzzzz [/Abe Simpson]

[F/reW/re]

Originally posted by robbieduncan
I checked my Samsung flatpanel in the shop before buying it (Micro Anvica TCR London). They were willing to open it and let me not buy it if there were dead pixels, but would not get another one and open it.

So I have a really nice 19" panel with no dead pixels or bright ones.
I don't know how laws are where you live, but where I live if you return your product within 14 days in the same condition as it was delivered you get ALL your money back! (not with software or music)

[andyduncan]

4 stuck-lit pixels is quite a lot. They are quite a bit more annoying than dead pixels.

IIRC Apple's policy used to be one lit, and 4 or 5 dead were grounds for replacement. At least thats what Apple Care used to tell my friends who tried to return displays (all for dead pixels).

I've only seen a single Apple display with a stuck-lit pixel. Don't know if it got replaced.

[zaphoyd]

Also note that pixels don't always stay dead or alive. When I got my DVI TiBook it had no dead pixels that I could tell. After about a month I noticed a bright green one. kind of annoying but not greatly. After a week or so it went away and It has been over a year now and i haven't seen it again.

[SubGothius]

BTW, Apple may have this policy regarding replacement of LCDs that go bad over time, but for brand-new gear, IIRC you have a brief no-questions-asked return window (~10 days or so, I think?). If this is indeed so, you still wouldn't hafta worry about a brand-new unit having a couple-few bad pixels; just return the unit right away and get another one.

Also, I seem to recall some mention of a technique where you can try gently massaging a dead/stuck pixel back to life, but I don't remember the details, how well it works, if it's even a good idea, etc.

[brhmac]

My G3 PowerBook ("Wallstreet") had a lone pixel that trumpeted its independence from the neighbors by shining red at all times. Go red!

It annoyed me at first, but I got used to it.

Since upgrading to Jaguar, the pixel has conformed. Can't say I miss it, but this posting has again led me to ask: What happened? Where did the defiant pixel go?

Anyone know?:confused:

[richard5mith]

From what i've read from various people who have had LCD's sent back to Apple, they're more accommodating of these rules depending on the placement of the pixels. If you have 5 dead pixels right in the center of the screen they're much more likely to replace it for you than 5 dead pixels in one corner.

My Powerbook screen is perfect, but my iMac screen has one permanently blue pixel down and to the right of center. I rarely notice it.

[Fender2112]

Originally posted by F/reW/re
I don't know how laws are where you live, but where I live if you return your product within 14 days in the same condition as it was delivered you get ALL your money back! (not with software or music)

Where do you live? In the US you get three business days. I'm not sure many folks know this. But I've come across it several times. There may be some restrictions or maybe it's just for things that are financed. Or maybe I'm clueless. If you are not sure, ask. The worst thing you will be told is that it's not true. In that case you didn't lose anything.

[sacrilicious]

Good to know this. My NEC 19" CRT had a serious clump just northwest of middle (pencil eraser sized, after it had been on for about twenty minutes) and Office Depot barely took it back.

[Stelliform]

Originally posted by zaphoyd
Also note that pixels don't always stay dead or alive. When I got my DVI TiBook it had no dead pixels that I could tell. After about a month I noticed a bright green one. kind of annoying but not greatly. After a week or so it went away and It has been over a year now and i haven't seen it again.

I have had several pixels like this one. In the 9 months that I have my laptop they have come and gone. I imagine that this policy is taking into account that after a few weeks some of the pixels might return to working order.

[patrick0brien]

Originally posted by brhmac
My G3 PowerBook ("Wallstreet") had a lone pixel that trumpeted its independence from the neighbors by shining red at all times. Go red!

It annoyed me at first, but I got used to it.

Since upgrading to Jaguar, the pixel has conformed. Can't say I miss it, but this posting has again led me to ask: What happened? Where did the defiant pixel go?

Anyone know?:confused:

-brhmac

I think it's the same thing that happens in some sporting events. The Red sat himself among supporters of the other side and began trumpeting his support for non-conformity. Then when the Big Cat came along, he was momentaritly distracted, and his neighbors summarily beat his a** into submission.

Gotta love Big Cats. Here's to the next <clink>

[F/reW/re]

Originally posted by Fender2112
Where do you live? In the US you get three business days. I'm not sure many folks know this. But I've come across it several times. There may be some restrictions or maybe it's just for things that are financed. Or maybe I'm clueless. If you are not sure, ask. The worst thing you will be told is that it's not true. In that case you didn't lose anything.
I live in Norway (Europe). 14 days after you bought it and you get your money back. If the product is bought on the internet you have to pay the return postingcosts yourself. When product is bought at a doorsale, homeparty or something like that, the seller pays postal-costs.

As long as the product you bought is in or almost the same condition as it was when delivered, you will get your money back.
If the seller didn't inform you about this when the product was bought, the 14 days can be expanded into 1 year.
This is how it works in Norway. Norway takes care of their buyers :P

[robrippin]

Originally posted by themadchemist
Good find! Much appreciated. The tolerance level seems reasonable, at least when compared to other manufacturers. I am of the understanding that anywhere up to 10 dead pixels in a monitor of that size is customary.

Funny thing...I was in Tweeter looking at TVs. The guy was talking about the LCDs--and we're talking 40 to 50 inches here. I asked him what the deal pixel tolerance of Sony, I think. He said he's never seen a pixel being dead, or that the tolerance was maybe 1 or 2.

Either he had no idea what he was talking about or he was flat out lying. Maybe he just hadn't paid close enough attention.

Sorry for getting off tangent, but it just reminded me of that. Some stores try to give the impression that they are going to sell you "perfect" LCDs, so when we hear about the defects, we sometimes get anxious or feel betrayed, when it's all just part of the manufacturing process.

YOU don't know what you are talking about... There is no such thing as a 40-50 inch LCD. The term you are looking for is PLASMA TV! PLASMA TV's don't get dead pixels because they use a gas instead of the LED type stuff in LCD...

[robrippin]

Originally posted by robbieduncan
I checked my Samsung flatpanel in the shop before buying it (Micro Anvica TCR London). They were willing to open it and let me not buy it if there were dead pixels, but would not get another one and open it.

So I have a really nice 19" panel with no dead pixels or bright ones.

You do realize that the point isn't when you buy it new, pixels are dead... The point is that after using it for a while, pixels will go out on you!

[brianbobcat]

Originally posted by richard5mith
From what i've read from various people who have had LCD's sent back to Apple, they're more accommodating of these rules depending on the placement of the pixels. If you have 5 dead pixels right in the center of the screen they're much more likely to replace it for you than 5 dead pixels in one corner.

My Powerbook screen is perfect, but my iMac screen has one permanently blue pixel down and to the right of center. I rarely notice it.

My grandma has the mid range flat screen imac with the same thing, 1 light blue pixel on the left and up from center. I've tried rubbing it, but i was afraid of messing up other pixels, so i didn't do it for that long. It's only noticable if there's a dark screen over it or if you really look for it, it's not that bad.

-Brian

[robrippin]

Originally posted by sacrilicious
Good to know this. My NEC 19" CRT had a serious clump just northwest of middle (pencil eraser sized, after it had been on for about twenty minutes) and Office Depot barely took it back.

Wait, wait, wait... Let me get this strait! Your 'CRT' (Cathode Ray Tube) had a group of dead PIXELS?! :confused:

Please learn the technical jargon so you know wtf you are talking about

:p

[vrapan]

but for brand-new gear, IIRC you have a brief no-questions-asked return window (~10 days or so, I think?).

This is partially true you can return the product but you will have to pay a 10% restocking feeeven if you return it on the first day. In UK there is a policy where you have a 2 week window to return your product it is in a bill passed called Consumer Protection Act or something like that. But I don't know if Apple has to follow it or they still charge you 10% restocking fee. In US as long as I understand is up to the retailer. For example Amazon will accept the product back in the first 2 weeks I think no questions asked and no restocking fee.

I got my PB from Apple and it had 1 stuck pixel red. it is quite obvious when i watch movies but otherwise it is not very visible. When the next day I called the Apple Store they told me the numbers i think they said something like 4 dead and or 5 stuck or something like that. And I was not prepared for 1 pixel to pay the 10%. This is why it can be better to buy Apple products from resellers that offer that sort of assurance.

[Dros]

Seems like a strange set of rules:
4 on
5 off
8 of either

Why the 8 of either? You could have--
8 on 0 off (covered by first rule)
7 on 1 off (1st)
6 on 2 off (1st)
5 on 3 off (1st)
4 on 4 off (1st)
3 on 5 off (2nd) etc etc...

or are there other defects than always on or off? :confused:

[ant_s]

Wait, wait, wait... Let me get this strait! Your 'CRT' (Cathode Ray Tube) had a group of dead PIXELS?!


This is actually half true. Defects in the grille can indeed give the effect of dead pixels, particularly on cheap monitors.

I have a CTX PR960F, quite an upmarket model, and it has a very small defect in the left centre, about 2 inches in from the left. It is quite possible that a cluster of apparent dead pixels could make their way into a CRT monitor, although they aren't true pixels, but rather holes in the mesh, which are very much smaller than pixels themselves.

[AppleMatt]

I'm surprised Apple haven't jumped on this, those that have access to service manuals will know how categorically Apple state not releasing these tolerances to the "public" and the reasons why. I wonder what's changed.

robrippin,
I guess as you are new you are not familiar with this forums etiquette. Forum rules clearly state how to address people. I suggest you read the "read this or risk getting banned" thread by arn, it's there for a reason. Being confrontational doesn't help anyone.

http://forums.macrumors.com/announcement.php?s=&forumid=4

AppleMatt

[MrMacMan]

Originally posted by Mudbug
you know, out of a few million pixels, 5 isn't really bad... it would cost lotsa dough to replace every panel if it were less than these specs.

Yeah I think this is acceptable... Unless they are all bunched in a group (almost impossible) to create a big pack of dead or light pixels then I don't think this is a huge problem.

Though it is good to have numbers.

[cnladd]

Originally posted by MrMacman
Yeah I think this is acceptable... Unless they are all bunched in a group (almost impossible) to create a big pack of dead or light pixels then I don't think this is a huge problem.

Though it is good to have numbers.

Most manufacturers have rules that allow for replacement of a smaller number of dead pixels if there are X number within X distance of each other (where X is a number smaller than the normal count of 8.)

I once ran a utility that turned the screen all red, all blue, all green, all black, and all white -- to help show where the dead/lit pixels were. I noticed a blue one in the lower right corner.

After that, that's all I saw. It bugged the hell outta me. It constantly distracted me. It was like a freshly pulled tooth -- the open socket is just always there! After a month or so, though, it went away.

I've never used that utility since. I don't care if I have dead/lit pixels, unless it gets in the way of normal work on its own. If I do have one then I don't want it pointed out to me.

[pellucidity]

Without being willing to take responsibility for the consequences of this advice.... I'll mention that I have been told that in some cases stuck pixels can be massaged gently back to life. Don't scratch your display up trying, but be gentle. Dead pixels, of course, are dead and forgotten. But it's a thought. To be honest, I've been lucky so I haven't tried this. My iBook and 15" Samsung are fine, and my parents' 15" and 17" Iiyamas work... So I haven't tried it.

Perhaps we have a soul who can give it a try?

[patrick0brien]

-robrippin

Woah!

Your three posts have already set a less-than-ideal precedent. You are correct on your facts, but your delivery is a little close to whacking people over the head with it.

Please, back of a little.

[Doctor Q]

Originally posted by Dros
Seems like a strange set of rules:
4 on
5 off
8 of either

Why the 8 of either? You could have--
8 on 0 off (covered by first rule)
7 on 1 off (1st)
6 on 2 off (1st)
5 on 3 off (1st)
4 on 4 off (1st)
3 on 5 off (2nd) etc etc...

or are there other defects than always on or off?The 3rd rule handles these cases:

3 on 6 off
4 on 5 off
4 on 6 off

which are not covered by the 1st and 2nd rules.

[Archmage]

Originally posted by Doctor Q
The 3rd rule handles these cases:

3 on 6 off
4 on 5 off
4 on 6 off

which are not covered by the 1st and 2nd rules.

3 on 6 off: covered by rule 2 (more than 5 off)

4 on 5 off: ok

4 on 6 off: covered by rule 2 (more than 5 off)

...

[acj]

Originally posted by Dros
Seems like a strange set of rules:
4 on
5 off
8 of either

Why the 8 of either? You could have--
8 on 0 off (covered by first rule)
7 on 1 off (1st)
6 on 2 off (1st)
5 on 3 off (1st)
4 on 4 off (1st)
3 on 5 off (2nd) etc etc...

or are there other defects than always on or off? :confused:

Yes, when refering to sub pixels. Each pixel has three sub pixels. Most plans offer replacement if a few full pixels are all on or all off and slightly more if it's just the sub pixel, which might display yellow (green+red but not blue) instead of white.

On a side note, some people have been able to litterally massage pixels back into life. I'm not suggesting this though, so don't come to me if you kill your LCD...

[fpnc]

Yes, all of these numbers refer to subpixels, not whole pixels. A subpixel is pretty small and in fact on the higher dot pitch displays you probably do need a magnifying glass to see the difference between a subpixel and a whole pixel (that latter would count as three subpixels or three defects).

So, to be fair to Apple, this is a dead subpixel policy not just a dead pixel count.

[LimeiBook86]

my LimeiBook's original display had 2or 3 dead pixels toward the middle of the screen, it was bright red! :( I just got it, refirbished from MacWarehouse, Apple didn't fix it because it had to be more than 4 pixels...But then my brother broke my screen by mistake and I got a new LCD for my iBook on eBay for $300, which included shipping the iBook off to the company. Now my iBook has some small faint black dots/stripes in the uper right hand corner of the plastic that holds the LCD...maybe it is just dirt or something...

Anyway if the dead pixels are in the middle of the damn screen they should fix it! :mad: Oh well...let's hope I don't have any more in my future laptops...:rolleyes:

[mvc]

Originally posted by SubGothius

Also, I seem to recall some mention of a technique where you can try gently massaging a dead/stuck pixel back to life, but I don't remember the details, how well it works, if it's even a good idea, etc.

Hmm - CPR for dead pixels.

Wait, we'll try shock treatment, get the electrodes - CLEAR!!!

[mstecker]

Where do displays with too many dead pixels end up? I, for one, would be very interested in buying a Cinama HD display with a <few> too many dead pixels for a sizeable discount.

Are they destroyed? Cannibalized for other spare parts? Sold to employees at a discount? Tossed into the mythical landfill with the Apple IIIs and the Lisas?


What really has my curiousity going about this is that I follow the mac hardware market pretty closely. I'm always scrounging around on eBay, or places like smalldog and I've NEVER seen a "refurb" LCD being sold with the defect of too many dead pixels.

So, where do they go? They gotta go somewhere.

[DbAscent94]

Originally posted by robrippin
YOU don't know what you are talking about... There is no such thing as a 40-50 inch LCD. The term you are looking for is PLASMA TV! PLASMA TV's don't get dead pixels because they use a gas instead of the LED type stuff in LCD...

Just an FYI to inform the uniformed. There are 40-60 inch LCDs but they are projection based. I suggest you look at Sony's Grand Wega line and Panasonics new 50 projection based LCDs. I have a one year old Panasonic 40 inch LCD projection with several stuck pixels on it. To the best of my knowledge Panasonic's replacement policy is 15 defective pixels in one quadrant of the TV.

[SiliconAddict]

Three words to this policy.....full of ****.

Where's the quality Apple? Stand behind your product!! :mad:

I'm sorry but the screen is your window to your computer. Anything less then perfect is BS. Esp if you are spending a whole hell of a lot of money on a laptop. I'm betting this applies to powerbooks too right? So someone spends 3 grand + on a laptop and dead pixels are an acceptable flaw?


PS- Can't you return a Mac if its within 30 days of purchase?

[Frohickey]

I think it has gotten a whole lot better.

I remember buying my first laptop, an Apple PowerBook 180. The first one that I got had two stuck on pixels near the center of the screen. I brought it back to the store, and opened up 2 other boxes, and took home the one with one stuck on pixel near the side of the screen.

After that, I got a Powerbook 3400, and it had 2 stuck pixels, both red, near the edge of the screen.

After this, there have been no more dead pixels at all. The Powerbook... (fat, swoopy, with rubberized top and bottom) had zero dead pixels, not in red, green, blue, white or black.

The TiBook doesn't have any either.

[kylos]

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Three words to this policy.....full of ****.

Where's the quality Apple? Stand behind your product!! :mad:

I'm sorry but the screen is your window to your computer. Anything less then perfect is BS. Esp if you are spending a whole hell of a lot of money on a laptop. I'm betting this applies to powerbooks too right? So someone spends 3 grand + on a laptop and dead pixels are an acceptable flaw?


PS- Can't you return a Mac if its within 30 days of purchase?

Think about it like this. In a 1024 by 768 monitor, there are 786,432 pixels. Each pixel is composed of three subpixels, for a total of 2,359,296 possible different pixel defects. If just 8 are defective that means that Apple will replace a monitor that is only .00034% defective. Considering that they in some cases they will replace a monitor with even fewer defects and that a 1024 by 768 is the smallest LCD produced by Apple (thus lowering the acceptable error rate even more for larger monitors), I think Apple is being extremely fair, some might say overly fair.

Oh, and think about this. Each pixel is .000031 square inches in area. It's simply astounding that these things can be mass produced at such low failure rates.

[razorme]

Originally posted by fpnc
Yes, all of these numbers refer to subpixels, not whole pixels. A subpixel is pretty small and in fact on the higher dot pitch displays you probably do need a magnifying glass to see the difference between a subpixel and a whole pixel (that latter would count as three subpixels or three defects).


AFAIK, there are no subpixels in LCDs. Each pixel has the three color filters layered on top of each other, and each is controlled by its own transistor. If one transistor is malfunctioning, then you get a color problem. If all three malfunction, then you get a dead or white pixel.

BTW: The closeness of the three filters to each other is what causes the colors to distort as you look at each pixel from an angle!

[weave]

I've been looking at a 30" LCD TV. It's like $4,000. For that price, I don't think it's too unreasonable to expect perfection.

Also, by the way, from what I've read, Plasmas can also have dead pixels.

[CooCooCaChoo]

Why this story has been classed as "negative" considering that the Acceptable Dead Pixel Standard has been around for a few years and that every LCD producer who has signed up to it conforms to the a standard which outlines the maximum number of dead pixels before the display is considered unacceptable.

If it weren't for this programme LCD displays would cost atleast 3x the price they are today.

[Doctor Q]

Originally posted by Archmage
3 on 6 off: covered by rule 2 (more than 5 off)

4 on 6 off: covered by rule 2 (more than 5 off)I don't think so. Rule 2 is "7 or more off", not "more than 5 off", so it doesn't apply to 6 off. And rule 1 (5 or more on) doesn't apply to 3 on or 4 on. But because these cases have 9 in combination and 10 in combination, respectively, they meet rule 3 (9 or more in combination).

[sacrilicious]

Originally posted by robrippin
Wait, wait, wait... Let me get this strait! Your 'CRT' (Cathode Ray Tube) had a group of dead PIXELS?! :confused:

Please learn the technical jargon so you know wtf you are talking about

:p

Regardless, there was a black group of spots about a quarter inch in diameter.

[MacViolinist]

Unfortunately, Apple has one of the worst policies regarding LCD screens.

There is, according to AASP training, a valid method of attempting to rescusitate a dead pixel on an LCD. It does involve a massage.

Keep in mind that on an LCD the pixel that is stuck on is black vs. the CRT where the pixel stuck in the on position is white.

Just to back up my opening statement, Dell will replace your LCD screen for 3 on pixels and 5 off.

[Dros]

Originally posted by Doctor Q
I don't think so. Rule 2 is "7 or more off", not "more than 5 off", so it doesn't apply to 6 off. And rule 1 (5 or more on) doesn't apply to 3 on or 4 on. But because these cases have 9 in combination and 10 in combination, respectively, they meet rule 3 (9 or more in combination).

There is some confusion about the 'rules'. MacMerc mentions 7 off, whereas the blurb here at MacRumors they say 'up to 4 always-on, 5 always-off or 8 combination'. I didn't see the actual document before it was removed. If the MacRumors numbers are off that would explain the superfluous 'combination rule'.

[Snowy_River]

Originally posted by zaphoyd
Also note that pixels don't always stay dead or alive. When I got my DVI TiBook it had no dead pixels that I could tell. After about a month I noticed a bright green one. kind of annoying but not greatly. After a week or so it went away and It has been over a year now and i haven't seen it again.

The problem is not always with the transistors in the pixels. I have a PB3400 which has a pixel that sometimes gets stuck red. However, I've found that I can easily fix it by squeezing the border of the screen directly above where the pixel is. There is clearly a weak connection in that area that is causing the problem, but I never minded because it was so easy to fix when it acted up.

[Snowy_River]

Originally posted by robrippin
You do realize that the point isn't when you buy it new, pixels are dead... The point is that after using it for a while, pixels will go out on you!

Actually, robrippin, most cases I've heard of the pixels are DOA. Sometimes they can be revitalized, but sometimes not. It is true that pixels can go out, but I don't think that's really what this document is dealing with...

[mxpiazza]

Originally posted by Kyle?
Think about it like this. In a 1024 by 768 monitor, there are 786,432 pixels. Each pixel is composed of three subpixels, for a total of 2,359,296 possible different pixel defects. If just 8 are defective that means that Apple will replace a monitor that is only .00034% defective. Considering that they in some cases they will replace a monitor with even fewer defects and that a 1024 by 768 is the smallest LCD produced by Apple (thus lowering the acceptable error rate even more for larger monitors), I think Apple is being extremely fair, some might say overly fair.

Oh, and think about this. Each pixel is .000031 square inches in area. It's simply astounding that these things can be mass produced at such low failure rates.

rock on, g! when you put it that way, it does make a ton of sense. i just bought a 15" Studio Display off eBay (the newer styled ones, just like the 17", not the crappy graphite LCDs), and I took it to MicroCenter to test it out (it's for my new G5... :D ) and was pleasantly surprised to see that it had absolutely no dead or stuck pixels. If there were, i'd understand, especially putting it the way you did... but when some people are dropping just as much on a top-end LCD as they are on their computer, they expect a certain level or perfection, and i can understand that as well...

[mxpiazza]

robrippin, you need to take a deep breath, my friend... i'm sick of all this mac-on-mac crime!!!

and on a side note, the photo link for this story was taken down per request of Apple Legal, anyone save it so i could check it out?

[Snowy_River]

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Three words to this policy.....full of ****.

Where's the quality Apple? Stand behind your product!! :mad:

I'm sorry but the screen is your window to your computer. Anything less then perfect is BS. Esp if you are spending a whole hell of a lot of money on a laptop. I'm betting this applies to powerbooks too right? So someone spends 3 grand + on a laptop and dead pixels are an acceptable flaw?


Okay, so you want Apple to have a policy of perfection?!? Are you willing to pay for that? Your $3k laptop will suddenly cost you more like $6k to support that kind of tolerance. It's a general rule that the tighter the tolerance, the more it costs, and this is certainly no exception. Apple clearly already has higher standards than much (though perhaps not all) of the rest of the industry, so we should be happy about that, not griping that they aren't shooting for an almost impossible perfection...

Originally posted by MacViolinist
Just to back up my opening statement, Dell will replace your LCD screen for 3 on pixels and 5 off.

I know for a fact that that's not true. I had to order a laptop from Dell for my supervisor at one point, and he was quite upset by the fact that it had a number of stuck pixels (four, IIRC). I had to spend quite a bit of time on the phone, and finally ended up returning it to get a different model because that was the only way they were going to accept the return. (And, FWIW, yes, my supervisor waited a month before deciding he couldn't stand the stuck pixels...)

[j33pd0g]

I find this fancy LCD technology to be too risky. I'll stick with the old fat space hogging monitor. It would drive me insane if I had these dead or stuck pixels. I would feel ripped off it were to happen to me. I would be angry at ever buying the LCD every time I use my mac.

[MacViolinist]

Snowy,
You got screwed man. You should call Dell and complain. I used to work for Dell. That is (at least it was 8 months ago) their policy.

(edit: you might also want to specify whether or not the 4 stuck pixels were on or off or a mix)

[Mr_Mac_UK]

Originally posted by robrippin
YOU don't know what you are talking about... There is no such thing as a 40-50 inch LCD. The term you are looking for is PLASMA TV! PLASMA TV's don't get dead pixels because they use a gas instead of the LED type stuff in LCD...

Ummm... Sounds like you don't know what you're talking about. There is such thing as a 40-50" LCD. Have a look at the Nec/Mitsubishi Multisync 4000 - a 40" LCD Display which is far sharper than a plasma.... there are lots more out there :D

[rpsx]

what would be a great addition to that policy, is some kind of above finder level application where you can just mouse click exactly where a stuck pixel is, you tell it what color is stuck, then the software will kill the suck lcd.

I have a stuck blue to the left of center on my pb g4. watching dvds sucks. a simple shareware app like this i'd pay $20-30 for, just because it is so useful. wish i could program!i think partially dead pixels are A LOT more bearable then stuck on pixels.

anyone????

[CrackedButter]

Originally posted by brhmac
My G3 PowerBook ("Wallstreet") had a lone pixel that trumpeted its independence from the neighbors by shining red at all times. Go red!

It annoyed me at first, but I got used to it.

Since upgrading to Jaguar, the pixel has conformed. Can't say I miss it, but this posting has again led me to ask: What happened? Where did the defiant pixel go?

Anyone know?:confused:

Maybe it misses OS9?
You made me laugh anyway.

[Mac'em X]

I own a Mac that had a bad pixel. I'd read about the "massaging" trick, and gave it a try every now and then, gently rubbing the bad pixel. No effect.

Then I tried the "borders" trick. Go straight up from the bad pixel and rub the border of the screen. Then go down and rub the bottom border. Then do the same for left and right.

I know it won't work for every case, but on my machine it brough the dead pixel to life, and all has been well since.

I understand that all manufacturers allow some number of bad pixels, and know that doing otherwise would raise the cost of our machines. But I hate the "crap shoot" aspect of it, and understand buyers' anger completely.

I saw a man in an Apple store last year who was livid over a very visible stuck pixel on his new 17" iMac. He was a new switcher from Windows, and couldn't believe that the price of an iMac didn't guarantee a perfect screen. The Apple Store manager only told him over and over that policy did not allow them to accept a return for that defect.

I should have stepped in and told him what the manager should have been telling him: that it's not an Apple-only issue, and he'd be taking the same chances with other brands. But whatever the explanations and reasonings, there's no quelling a buyer who's regretting a $2,000 purchase.

I was very worried over pixels when I bought my new PB. I lucked out on the crap shoot, and got a perfect screen. But next time? I'll have to roll the dice all over again...

[fred_garvin]

Does anyone know if the OLED displays that should be out in the next 1-2 years will have these kinds of problems?

[AppleMatt]

Originally posted by fred_garvin
Does anyone know if the OLED displays that should be out in the next 1-2 years will have these kinds of problems?

That's a good question, does anyone actually know? (and can provide a technical explanation)

AppleMatt

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by Kyle?
If just 8 are defective that means that Apple will replace a monitor that is only .00034% defective. ... It's simply astounding that these things can be mass produced at such low failure rates.

By this logic, one shouldn't expect microprocessors to work perfectly - with many 10s of millions of transisters, a few dozen bad ones shouldn't matter, right?

I'll take this PB - it can't subtract, but it can add and multiply just fine!


Not.

[vrapan]

I should have stepped in and told him what the manager should have been telling him: that it's not an Apple-only issue, and he'd be taking the same chances with other brands. But whatever the explanations and reasonings, there's no quelling a buyer who's regretting a $2,000 purchase.



That is partly correct since if that guy has gone to Circuit City for example and bought his PC and then took it back with no reason they would accept it. No restocking no excuses. I think BB is the same. With Apple you really cannot return it. Since they charge 10% restocking fee a 2000$ can easily become 2200$ if you dont want the defective screen and none tells you that the other panel won't have the same problem. I guess this is why you have resellers. But resellers do not offer Students discounts and you cannot customise your purchase. I think it is sad that Apple does not have some period of returns without restocking fees and without needing excuses.

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by Kyle?
Think about it like this. In a 1024 by 768 monitor, there are 786,432 pixels. Each pixel is composed of three subpixels, for a total of 2,359,296 possible different pixel defects. If just 8 are defective that means that Apple will replace a monitor that is only .00034% defective. Considering that they in some cases they will replace a monitor with even fewer defects and that a 1024 by 768 is the smallest LCD produced by Apple (thus lowering the acceptable error rate even more for larger monitors), I think Apple is being extremely fair, some might say overly fair.

Oh, and think about this. Each pixel is .000031 square inches in area. It's simply astounding that these things can be mass produced at such low failure rates.


That's not the point. Even if its only .00001% defective if I end up watching a movie or editing a home video or whatever and have to have a glairing dot in my screen this is unacceptable. Even more unacceptable if I’d pay for a premium laptop like a 17”er. Yah is only my opinion but I still think there are a lot of people out there that have to agree with me. A million or a billion pixels. If it can be singled out by the human eye as a flaw it’s a problem. Now if we were talking hard drives where one or 2 sectors couldn’t be written to (Which is usually the first signs of a drive going bad but humor me.) no one would make a fuss over it because you can't “see” those bad sectors.

[Doctor Q]

I see that Apple Legal has stepped in so the page is no longer posted. For those who missed it, here's a recap:

The document contained testing and customer-interaction guidelines for Apple support people, about handling LCD pixels that are always on ("bright") or always off ("dark").

The "rules" we are talking about concern how many "subpixel anomalies" are acceptable vs. not acceptable. A "subpixel" is the red or green or blue pixel at a particular screen coordinate. When the number of subpixel anomalies is acceptable, the customer is told that the LCD is within specifications and no repair is necessary. Otherwise, the LCD should be replaced.

The rules in the document cover 17" LCDs only and are as follows: An 17" LCD has an acceptable number of subpixel anomalies when the number of bright pixels is 4 or less, the number of dark pixels is 6 or less, and the total of both is 8 or less. Therefore, it is to be replaced if the number of bright pixels is 5 or more, the number of dark pixels is 7 or more, or the total of both is 9 or more.

Since the document was not intended for customers, it does not constitute a promise by Apple to adhere to the guidelines. Has anybody had experience to show that they do indeed follow these guidelines?

[Aqua OS X]

Most computer retail stores and manufacturers have deal pixel policies. Dead pixels are common, and if everyone started returning monitors for 1 dead pixel there would be no one selling LCDs.... they'd be too damn expensive.

Sometimes it is better to buy an LCD device from a retail store because retail stores may have a better deal pixel policy then a manufacturer.

For example, CompUSA will replace your LCD if you have 3 or more dead pixels. Apple will only do it if you have 5. CompUSA may be staffed with idiots, however Apple laptops costs the same there.... so why not buy one from CompUSA?

[Aqua OS X]

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
That's not the point. Even if its only .00001% defective if I end up watching a movie or editing a home video or whatever and have to have a glairing dot in my screen this is unacceptable. Even more unacceptable if I’d pay for a premium laptop like a 17”er. Yah is only my opinion but I still think there are a lot of people out there that have to agree with me. A million or a billion pixels. If it can be singled out by the human eye as a flaw it’s a problem. Now if we were talking hard drives where one or 2 sectors couldn’t be written to (Which is usually the first signs of a drive going bad but humor me.) no one would make a fuss over it because you can't “see” those bad sectors.

It is -normal- for an LCD to have 1 or 2 deal pixels... especially if they are on a laptop (laptops get moved and knocked around frequently) It is not normal to have a handful of them.

If deal pixels bug you that much then don't buy LCD devices. Dead pixels are common and just about -every- hardware manufacturer and retailer has a deal pixel policy which says you need anywhere from 3 to 8 dead pixels in order to warrant a replacement.

And as for the harddrives...
It is not normal to have unwritable sectors on a harddrive that is functioning properly. Just because a single pixel crapped out on your PowerBooks display does not mean that your display is on the brink of failure. It simply means you have small dot on your screen that you will eventually not notice.

Now, I'm sure we could all protest pixel imperfection and force manufacturers to replace an LCD for every dead pixel, or simply start using plasma... however I'm fairly sure laptops would skyrocket to over 5000 dollars.

So... just deal with it. It's not the end of the world. Nothing is perfect in life.

[AppleMatt]

Originally posted by Aqua OS X
It simply means you have small dot on your screen that you will eventually not notice.


You can't really say that for everyone, I had a Dell laptop for about 4 years and I noticed it all the time. It was only one pixel aswell, it really frustrated me.

Matt

[yanges]

Originally posted by patrick0brien
-All

Published by MacMerc - the unreleased Official Apple Pixel Policy regarding funky pixels.

Good knowledge for the hip pocket when looking at a dead pixel.

Get it quick before Apple Legal catches on...

MacMerc: Apple's Pixel Policy (http://macmerc.com/pixel_policy.html)

Note: I posted this not to stir a pot of "Apple's ripping us off" - All LCD's have dead or funky pixels - they just might not be wrong enough to make out. There is no such thing as a perfect LCD. It's just good knowledge to have if you have many funky pixels wether you will be wasting your time trying to get a new display.

the article is gone...taken off per Apple Legal

can someone email it to me...

sure would appreciate it:D

oops! i missed Doctor Q's post....

[acj]

Originally posted by razorme
AFAIK, there are no subpixels in LCDs. Each pixel has the three color filters layered on top of each other, and each is controlled by its own transistor.

They are side by side on my Samsung LCD and all others I am aware of. See picture I took. The red/green/blue bars look like gray with the naked eye.

[MacViolinist]

Aqua OS X-

To quote Elvis Costello "What can we do? What, can we do, with all this useless beauty? All this useless beauty!"

Shall we then buy laptops with CRT's?

I've got a dark pixel right in the middle of my iBook that showed up 14 days after it arrived. I've had it for 9 months now and it drives me up the wall. I start to forget about it and then I think i've added an ' or a . or a , accidentaly. wtf? It drives me effing nuts.

In response to your hard drive comment. If you run disk first aid and it finds a bad block, it will mark it as unuseable and you will not be affected by it. You will lose data stored on the bad blocks, but you will not have to worry about them again. It will essentially become invisible. When you run apple's monitor diagnostic/calibration program the pixel very clearly shows up (just as it did before you ran the program) as bad, but does not become invisible.

Apple's tolerance for hard drive replacement under warranty is 4, yes count them, 4 bad blocks. 4 entities that can be made to not affect your life in anyway whatsoever by running a utility that comes with the computer.

Correct me if I am wrong, but 4 bad blocks out of a 30gig HD is a lower percentage that 8 out of a 12.1 in. LCD. Yes? And do I need to repeat the invisible vs. visible thing?

[arn]

Correction:

http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/08/20030816235653.shtml

[Doctor Q]

Originally posted by MacViolinist
Correct me if I am wrong, but 4 bad blocks out of a 30gig HD is a lower percentage that 8 out of a 12.1 in. LCD. Yes?No. 8 subpixels out of 1024x768x3 is .00034%, if I'm not mistaken, while 4 bad 512-byte-blocks out of 30*1024*1024 bytes is .0016%, which is 4.7 times higher.

But I agree that the more important point is that users don't care about, or see, bad blocks.

[Snowy_River]

Originally posted by MacViolinist
Aqua OS X-
...
Shall we then buy laptops with CRT's?
...

Well, after a fashion, yes. But not for another few of years...

There are new flat screen technologies that are being developed that have far more in common with CRTs than with LCDs. They will, likewise, not be prone to the 'dead pixel' problem of LCDs. They will scale to different pixel resolutions better. Ah the excitement of new tech yet to reach the market...

Of course, there might be a groan if I mentioned the name of one company that I know is working on developing this technology. (I'll give you a hint, we don't like their track record with processors...)

[MacViolinist]

Originally posted by Doctor Q
No. 8 subpixels out of 1024x768x3 is .00034%, if I'm not mistaken, while 4 bad 512-byte-blocks out of 30*1024*1024 bytes is .0016%, which is 4.7 times higher.

But I agree that the more important point is that users don't care about, or see, bad blocks.


Damn. I knew I should have done the math before posting. So, at this point I will focus on the finale of my original post and simply argue the visibilty/invisibility issue.

-The Grewsome Drewsome

[Doctor Q]

Originally posted by MacViolinist
Damn. I knew I should have done the math before posting.That's OK. I can't play the violin.