MS Windows "Longhorn" screenshots

[mainstreetmark]

http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/longhorn_4015.asp

I appologize if this is a repost. I admit to not doing a search to see if this had been brought up before.

But, to those of you for whom this is new, this is so far the best description yet of Longhorn, complete with a ton of screenshots.

Amazingly, despite the presence of a 'Sidebar', there doesn't seem to be much different.

Among the things that are different are things called Libraries (apparently, a smart-folder that holds, for example, all the jpgs on your drive), and being able to 'Filter' each explorer window (ala Search, in osx).

Last release date I heard was sometime in 2005. What kind of cat will Apple have in 2005? Sabertooth?

[XnavxeMiyyep]

Let's see, it will have: Useless graphic features, an annoying sidebar that takes up 1/6 the screen, and the folders look like $h!+ http://www.winsupersite.com/images/reviews/4015_068.png when enlarged to the size of the default icon on the OS X desktop.

[mainstreetmark]

Originally posted by XnavxeMiyyep
Let's see, it will have: Useless graphic features, an annoying sidebar that takes up 1/6 the screen, and the folders look like $h!+ http://www.winsupersite.com/images/reviews/4015_068.png when enlarged to the size of the default icon on the OS X desktop.

Well, I'm sure they haven't bothered to make 128x128 icons for everything yet, and are just using what they got. That's really more of a finishing touch.

Dig me, I'm defending them.

[Tiauguinho]

Originally posted by mainstreetmark
Well, I'm sure they haven't bothered to make 128x128 icons for everything yet, and are just using what they got. That's really more of a finishing touch.

Dig me, I'm defending them.

FLAME WAR!!! :D

Joking man, but seriously, Microsoft may try... but they wont get to the toes of Apple in terms of design.

[Powerbook G5]

I have yet to be imprssed by Longhorn. It looks pretty Windows/XP too me with a few graphical "enhancements" that seem pointless. I've seen so many spelling errors, grammar errors, and such in the various screen shots of the OS, too. It seems like there isn't much serious effort to make Longhorn a truly innovative OS. It'd be like Apple releasing OS X, but only as a "modern" OS 9...maybe it'd have a few added things, but that wouldn't have been too innovated like what they did when they made the jump. We got an entirely new an amazing OS. You'd think Windows users would be a little pissed if they didn't get the same treatment. After all these years, Windows has been basically the same general beast since Windows 95...same look, same design, just with more bloat and more features.

[themadchemist]

icons that smoothly scale to 128x128! what innovation!

flipping folders and whacky windows, oh my! A desktop with resource-hogging visual effects that wastes my precious hardware on rebuilding itself over and over and over again!

This is truly splendor! And majesty! And the computing nirvana that all have thus far sought.

edit: to be fair, it seems that this flaunting of effects is more or less a way for microsoft to demonstrate an environment more graphically-capable not just for the OS but for all applications. to be more fair, it does seem that the biggest TECHNICAL advancement is going to be better drivers, which doesn't seem too impressive to me.

[mainstreetmark]

That's what I've been complaining about all these years too! XP, despite the improved start menu, is just like win 95, 98, NT, ME, etc..etc.. For 8 years now, whenever you're copying a large amount of files, and one file screws up, you're not given the chance to skip the one bad file and continue.

Perhaps, in 2005, 4 years after XP is released, and the Win community gets a load of it, Apple should clearly have the world's best OS, and maybe the world's fastest computers, and maybe - just maybe - the old "You can't get any software for the Mac" argument will go the hell away.

[themadchemist]

Originally posted by mainstreetmark
That's what I've been complaining about all these years too! XP, despite the improved start menu, is just like win 95, 98, NT, ME, etc..etc.. For 8 years now, whenever you're copying a large amount of files, and one file screws up, you're not given the chance to skip the one bad file and continue.

Perhaps, in 2005, 4 years after XP is released, and the Win community gets a load of it, Apple should clearly have the world's best OS, and maybe the world's fastest computers, and maybe - just maybe - the old "You can't get any software for the Mac" argument will go the hell away.

-Apple already DOES clearly have the best OS.
-Apple is making its way toward having the fastest computers. But in that price range, they are not the fastest computers yet.
-and the old "you can't get any software for the Mac" argument has already gone the hell away, except for a few select games.

The real problem is to convince the ol' Windows-heads of the truth, because contrary to popular belief, the die-hard windows users are as adamant if not more adamant than Mac enthusiasts. But Apple's greatest improvement would be to have an ad campaign that started turning the heads of those who know nothing about computers and go for windows. A price that fit such people would also help.

[Powerbook G5]

So in two years Windows *might* have some of the stuff that has been normal for Apple users...isn't this always the case? heh...the article talks about 128x128 icons, being able to scale them higher, improved graphics stability, etc as if it's never been done or thought of before, but yet OS X has had them for going on 4 years now...I also love the "and explore.exe still crashes a lot" I guess they are giving us all the hint that it's still Windows :)

[MorganX]

Originally posted by XnavxeMiyyep
http://www.winsupersite.com/images/reviews/4015_068.png[/url] when enlarged to the size of the default icon on the OS X desktop.

This is a joke right?

[edesignuk]

Fine, it may not be looking all that great (understatement!), but, it is important to remember that this is still a fairly early alpha build, it's not even beta yet.

[Powerbook G5]

You must also understand, also, though, that this is a *Microsoft* product...weren't XP and 2k3 supposed to be "crash-proof" and virtually "the most secure OS builds ever"...

[zim]

"Longhorn will feature a task-based (or "iterative") interface that goes far beyond the task-based interface found today in Windows XP. Microsoft has been working to move beyond the dated desktop metaphor still used by Mac OS X and Linux; I explain some of Microsoft's early work on task-based interfaces in my old Activity Centers preview. This new user interface is code-named "Aero" and is based on a new .NET-based API called "Avalon.""

http://www.winsupersite.com/faq/longhorn.asp

HUH? So is he saying that they are trying to not copy the Mac OS anymore? Seems to be what he is saying, although looing at the screen images and reading the F&Q does not lead me to think that this is anything groundbreaking... I have read rumors here of such possibilites on the Mac OS.

One more pull...
"Longhorn will include integrated recordable DVD capabilities and will work with every type of recordable DVD format. Digital media enthusiasts will be able to copy video from a digital camcorder directly to recordable DVD, bypassing the system's hard drive entirely, if desired."

That is assuming that the hardware manufactures support it and assuming that your current computer has a DVD player, I think he forgot about that.

I thought that I was under the impression that Longhorn required all ms apps to be re tooled.. can someone correct me on that one.

[themadchemist]

He points out that these Activity Centers "enumerate the user’s options for doing something other than the main task."

I'm going to take this to mean that when you ask to do one thing, it will also suggest to you that there might be a related way to do a few other things, which could be useful for beginners to discover, etc.

However, it shows that Microsoft can't let go of its OS trying to second guess everything you do.

When you go to Shut Down, maybe you just mean Shut Down. No, you don't want to restart, no, not standby either, and definitely don't want to make sugarfree iced tea.

Separate menu options for separate activities. Don't tell me what I want to do. Don't come up with an annoying paper clip or professor or anything else unless I ask you to.

In this sense, Mac OS is beautiful because it is non-invasive. Unfortunately, if Mac OS is non-invasive, then Windows is like a double-bypass.

[rueyeet]

From looking at the page and reading through the features of Longhorn, it actually does seem different from the previous Windows versions. But I'm not sure it's in good ways.

One of the things that makes me most nervous (because as long as I keep this job, this'll probably end up on my desktop someday) is that Microsoft has dropped even the pretense of the browser as a separate app, and completely integrated it with the desktop. For even more fun, some of the code is now based on the .NET framework (though the page notes that those parts seem to crash often).

Also, they're going even farther to separate computer concepts from computer use by grouping together similar types of files in these "Libraries", so that the user needn't have any concept of physical drives or directories, or any understanding of where their files are actually located. They can just open their "Music Library" and see all their music files, no matter where those files are actually saved.

I see two things wrong with that: First, a user who doesn't understand the concept of where their files go is a user who will consistently misplace their files, no matter what you call the places they can put them. Secondly, given Microsoft's tendency to assume it knows more about what you're attempting to accomplish with your computer than you do, I wouldn't be surprised if the system itself misfiled or obscured something in the attempt to be "helpful".

And then there's that stupid Sidebar thing. Why would you have that collection of graphical junk hanging out on the side of your screen, taking up real estate? And what does half of it actually do that you shouldn't be able to call up in seconds from the Start menu, or put a shortcut to on your desktop? Some of the Tiles you can put in the Sidebar are just entirely useless--Slide Show? User (which just shows the user picture)?

A lot of the technical innovation of Longhorn seems to be more fancy graphics, a new, searchable file system (WinFS), and integrated .NET. Two of those Apple's already got, and the other they'll hopefully never have. But unfortunately the changes to the Windows user interface are innovative mostly as new ways to further obscure the system from the user in the name of making it yet more idiot-proof and Microsoft-controllable. My Mac feels so transparent and configurable by comparison!

I'm glad the development is going slowly. Hopefully it'll be YEARS before I'm stuck using this crap at work. :mad:

[themadchemist]

Originally posted by rueyeet
From looking at the page and reading through the features of Longhorn, it actually does seem different from the previous Windows versions. But I'm not sure it's in good ways.

One of the things that makes me most nervous (because as long as I keep this job, this'll probably end up on my desktop someday) is that Microsoft has dropped even the pretense of the browser as a separate app, and completely integrated it with the desktop. For even more fun, some of the code is now based on the .NET framework (though the page notes that those parts seem to crash often).

Also, they're going even farther to separate computer concepts from computer use by grouping together similar types of files in these "Libraries", so that the user needn't have any concept of physical drives or directories, or any understanding of where their files are actually located. They can just open their "Music Library" and see all their music files, no matter where those files are actually saved.

I see two things wrong with that: First, a user who doesn't understand the concept of where their files go is a user who will consistently misplace their files, no matter what you call the places they can put them. Secondly, given Microsoft's tendency to assume it knows more about what you're attempting to accomplish with your computer than you do, I wouldn't be surprised if the system itself misfiled or obscured something in the attempt to be "helpful".

And then there's that stupid Sidebar thing. Why would you have that collection of graphical junk hanging out on the side of your screen, taking up real estate? And what does half of it actually do that you shouldn't be able to call up in seconds from the Start menu, or put a shortcut to on your desktop? Some of the Tiles you can put in the Sidebar are just entirely useless--Slide Show? User (which just shows the user picture)?

A lot of the technical innovation of Longhorn seems to be more fancy graphics, a new, searchable file system (WinFS), and integrated .NET. Two of those Apple's already got, and the other they'll hopefully never have. But unfortunately the changes to the Windows user interface are innovative mostly as new ways to further obscure the system from the user in the name of making it yet more idiot-proof and Microsoft-controllable. My Mac feels so transparent and configurable by comparison!

I'm glad the development is going slowly. Hopefully it'll be YEARS before I'm stuck using this crap at work. :mad:

precisely! transparent is the perfect word for the Mac. It is easy to use, not because of some facade of simplicity, but because the true, unadulterated interface is actually simple.

Windows feigns simplicity for the novice user through Wizards and widgets that try to mask the inherently unituitive interface.

[grabberslasher]

Actually, and this is coming from a long-time mac user (well, since my IIsi - that's what, 10 years), I think Longhorn is the best version of Windows yet (even as an alpha). I have run it in Virtual PC on my TiBook and on my PC at home and it has a few features that *gasp* might even surpass the Mac OS.

Wait a sec, hear me out...

1) It has human-like searching, not like the Finder: (see picture 1)

e.g. In Longhorn you can search for "pictures that John sent to me last week" or "documents that Anne created yesterday". Because the file system is databased, the search is instant.

2) It has a nifty feature that is hard to explain... it allows you to open the parent folder of any folder or the parent of any folder you have open. Sounds confusing...

OK, say I opened "/Users/grabberslasher/Documents".

With one click of a button in the address bar in Longhorn, I would be able to open the hard disk root, "Users" folder or the "grabberslasher" folder. And just by selecting a pull down menu I could then open the "/system" folder or "/applications", or any other folder in each level. Very hard to understand without a picture but it's all I can do. Trust me, it's very handy.

Those are two things off the top of my head. Another thing is the buttons, when you mouseover a focus ring fades in around the button. They are quite attractive.

Don't take me as a Winbloze geek. I have also had redhat and BeOS installed on the same PC. My powerbook is my love though. (The reason I had the PC was that my ISDN modem only worked with Windows)

BTW, Microsoft's libraries in Longhorn fulfill the same idea as "Piles" would have done in Panther.

Maybe M$ are innovating... for once (if you ignore fast user switching) but remember, Longhorn has been pushed back to 2006. Apple will be well past them by then.

:o What a rant...

Picture attached below of the search feature:

[grabberslasher]

Here's what I mean (for part 2)
The bit circled in orange is the thing I am talking about.

One click takes you to the Control Panel, but a click on the arrow beside it will give you access to everything in My Computer. A click on the arrow beside "Hardware an..." will give you a list of each of the control panels.

I prefer this to column view.

[ColoJohnBoy]

Oh Microsoft. You're so cute. It's like watching my nephews. One is seven and one of his younger brother's is three. The three year old is constantly trying to imitate his older brother; he's always in so much awe of him, and wants so desperately to be like him. Everything he does, of course, falls far short of what the older nephew does.

Yes, Microsoft, you are the younger brother. Try as you might, Windows will never be a Mac OS, and will never have the simple, beautiful functionality of OS X. But thanks for trying. You might get a page or two in the Computer Family scrapbook.

[Powerbook G5]

So the search feature is like AskJeeves.com...you use it once like "Where are my pictures from last week?" but after that you just type the quick and dirty "this file" to get what you want. It doesn't seem like Longhorn is doing anything more than adding about 1,000,000% more bloat with some graphical touches and things that it will get burnt in court. I thought they got slapped on the wrists already for trying to integrate IE into Windows, so why are they trying to do it yet again? And .NET being integrated is *not* a good thing. It seems like Longhorn is going to be a massive beast that will take over your computer and dumb it down from a college educated gentleman to a pre-k level "Special Ed". I put files in a specific folder for a specific reason, I click on something for a reason, and I use my computer in the exact way I want to, and I would hate it if I had the OS trying to treat me like I were 3 years old.

[xpormac]

Can't wait, seems like its going to be great :D .

[Powerbook G5]

As great as a brain tumor :D

[Thanatoast]

Longhorn *will* be great.

It will be a great opportunity for more converts. When people get disgusted by their computers not paying attention to them (are you sure you didn't want to this instead? "I'm sorry Dave, I can't let you do that..."), not getting any more secure, and the implementation of DRM (that's in Longhorn, right?) that will be the perfect time to point out that OSXI doesn't do any of that crap. It just lets you work, play, or whatever - without signifcant stress or cursing.

[xpormac]

Originally posted by Thanatoast
Longhorn *will* be great.

It will be a great opportunity for more converts. When people get disgusted by their computers not paying attention to them (are you sure you didn't want to this instead? "I'm sorry Dave, I can't let you do that..."),


Lol, a line from airplane 2....


not getting any more secure,

ehh? you think security won't be upgraded or better? Read up on it.


. It just lets you work, play, or whatever - without signifcant stress or cursing.

I've cursed at my mac !!!!! lol

[grabberslasher]

Airplane? How 'bout 2001 : A Space Oddessy.

(At least I think I'm sure...)

[mainstreetmark]

Originally posted by zim


That is assuming that the hardware manufactures support it and assuming that your current computer has a DVD player, I think he forgot about that.


Or, in my view, recording DVDs is not even in the domain of operating systems. That's an application-level thing.

[Powerbook G5]

I am seriously cautious about Longhorn. It just seems like Microsoft is taking quite a few large steps towards taking the user's control of his/her computer away from them and even taking it away from other parts of the computer. It's almost as if it's a virus spreading out and leaving the user unable to even push the start button without Windows trying to suggest a better way to use your computer.

[mainstreetmark]

Well, good. I posted it for just this reason.

I'd hoped I wasn't alone in thinking that Longhorn really isn't going anywhere, and that even the experts will eventually say that it's the crappiest OS in wide circulation now.

Hell, in my ideal view, it could even trigger the end of Microsoft's OS division. (I've conceded that Office is probably the best thing in that arena, and wouldn't want that gone).

The final frontier seems to be to get the video games to the Mac. I'm not even concerned about prices, since you get more/better stuff, usually. My Dell Inspiron has 4 cracks in it. It isn't even made out of a metal alloy!

[xpormac]

Originally posted by mainstreetmark
Well, good. I posted it for just this reason.

I'd hoped I wasn't alone in thinking that Longhorn really isn't going anywhere, and that even the experts will eventually say that it's the crappiest OS in wide circulation now.

Hell, in my ideal view, it could even trigger the end of Microsoft's OS division. (I've conceded that Office is probably the best thing in that arena, and wouldn't want that gone).



Your delusional, lol the end to microsofts OS division? lmao. Crappiest OS? I think not.

[zarathustra]

Originally posted by grabberslasher
2) It has a nifty feature that is hard to explain... it allows you to open the parent folder of any folder or the parent of any folder you have open. Sounds confusing...

OK, say I opened "/Users/grabberslasher/Documents".

With one click of a button in the address bar in Longhorn, I would be able to open the hard disk root, "Users" folder or the "grabberslasher" folder. And just by selecting a pull down menu I could then open the "/system" folder or "/applications", or any other folder in each level. Very hard to understand without a picture but it's all I can do. Trust me, it's very handy.

Did you mean this? (see attached). Command click on the name of any Finder window. It even works in Photoshop (on an open document window), Illustrator and InDesign.

[Powerbook G5]

Hasn't that always been a feature of Mac OS? I've been able to do that both on OS 8.6 and on OS 9.x since I've started using Macs. If that is what he was talking about, I'd say Microsoft was been quite behind thinking this is anything new ;)

[Abstract]

Originally posted by grabberslasher
Here's what I mean (for part 2)
The bit circled in orange is the thing I am talking about.

One click takes you to the Control Panel, but a click on the arrow beside it will give you access to everything in My Computer. A click on the arrow beside "Hardware an..." will give you a list of each of the control panels.

I prefer this to column view.

Other than the security issues (that haven't really affected me), I have no problem with WinXP. I'm looking forward to this version of Windows, although my PC is too outdated to run it. I know it comes out in 2005/6, but whatever. It sounds a lot like WinXP (again, something I don't mind whatsoever) with improvements. That's good enough news for me as long as they do it without mucking it all up somehow. Otherwise I'll stick to WinXP.

[maraczc]

The sidebar is called "a slice of toast". Put from what I see, taping a slice of toast to your screen while be just as much use for the space.

However I still sort of like the almost sci fi "gateway" style desktop.

[Lord Bodak]

Originally posted by grabberslasher
1) It has human-like searching, not like the Finder: (see picture 1)

e.g. In Longhorn you can search for "pictures that John sent to me last week" or "documents that Anne created yesterday". Because the file system is databased, the search is instant.


Yep, and it's based on MS SQL Server, which is pretty much the slowest database server out there, and which also has an occasional tendency to corrupt itself.

The idea of a SQL database being the only record of where my files are scares me to death.

[beg_ne]

Originally posted by Lord Bodak
Yep, and it's based on MS SQL Server, which is pretty much the slowest database server out there, and which also has an occasional tendency to corrupt itself.

The idea of a SQL database being the only record of where my files are scares me to death.

Don't think that some virus or worm won't make a great example of what a malicious person can do to a filesystem like this. Slammer + Sobig + Blaster = :eek: :eek: :eek:


Something tells me when this database type layer gets corrupted you can kiss your files goodbye for good.

[mainstreetmark]

Originally posted by beg_ne
Don't think that some virus or worm won't make a great example of what a malicious person can do to a filesystem like this. Slammer + Sobig + Blaster = :eek: :eek: :eek:


Something tells me when this database type layer gets corrupted you can kiss your files goodbye for good.

Even MS has learned this lesson recently, so don't worry about that.

I mean, I'm sure it's not like you could just walk up and open a connection to some sql server and somehow obtain a list of files in the system. "delete * from filetree"

[Thanatoast]

Originally posted by xpormac
ehh? you think security won't be upgraded or better? Read up on it.
Sure, xp gets a little more secure every three days when microsoft releases a new patch to fix a major hole. Or were you refering to security ala the riaa and mpaa? (I really don't know how much more/less secure it will be, I'm just being difficult)

I've cursed at my mac !!!!! lol
Oh I've cursed at my mac as well, but I've nearly thrown my pc off the roof (quite literally). And most of my cursing came from the fact that I was so new to the os. I give that point to the mac. Given a choice to use OSX or XP, I'd choose OSX any day.

[tjwett]

the only thing i'm impressed with in longhorn is the taskbar things. puts our Dock to shame. the Dock is cute and all but it's uses are so limited and annoying. i'd like to see some major Dock improvements in the future. aside from that, Windows can still go to hell.

[Sol]

Longhorn looks like rubbish. It is clearly influenced by OS X, right down to the default desktop background. Unlike OS X, the whole thing does not quite gell together and looks kind of silly to anyone familiar with the real thing.

[xpormac]

Originally posted by Sol
Longhorn looks like rubbish. It is clearly influenced by OS X, right down to the default desktop background. Unlike OS X, the whole thing does not quite gell together and looks kind of silly to anyone familiar with the real thing.

It looks like XP not OS X......

[JiMacOs]

Longhorn... a small step for Windows, a "long" step for mankind

[Powerbook G5]

Originally posted by xpormac
It looks like XP not OS X......

I believe he was talking about the desktop picture which looks eerily like the default Aqua desktop background on OS X.

[Gymnut]

Originally posted by themadchemist
-Apple already DOES clearly have the best OS.
-Apple is making its way toward having the fastest computers. But in that price range, they are not the fastest computers yet.
-and the old "you can't get any software for the Mac" argument has already gone the hell away, except for a few select games.

The real problem is to convince the ol' Windows-heads of the truth, because contrary to popular belief, the die-hard windows users are as adamant if not more adamant than Mac enthusiasts. But Apple's greatest improvement would be to have an ad campaign that started turning the heads of those who know nothing about computers and go for windows. A price that fit such people would also help.

I agree with the above but I think its a tad more than just a "few select games."

[Powerbook G5]

That's why I've got an Xbox, a Gamecube, a PS2, and a SNES.

[Gymnut]

Well I don't. Not everyone here has consoles and rely on their macs as a gaming platform in addition to everyday tasks.

[Powerbook G5]

Well, now that there is a Mac version of Sim City 4, I am a happy camper. I agree that the current state of gaming on a Mac sucks, but it does seem to be improving. We'll see how things are a year from now with iTMS for Windows, Panther, the G5, and all these new things coming out giving Apple a hopefully positive light in the industry. There are huge steps to take towards the right direction, but it looks like we are moving forward in the field of gaming possibilities rather than backward.

[Zaid]

Have you guys seen this?
http://www.winsupersite.com/faq/longhorn.asp

Q: But Mac OS X already has a lot of these features. What's the big deal?

A: Apple has implemented some basic desktop composition features in Mac OS X "Panther," due this fall, and they appear to be quite impressive. But the basic problem with Mac OS X isn't going away: It's a classic desktop operating system that doesn't offer anything in the way of usability advancements over previous desktop operating systems. Today, Windows XP and its task-based interface are far superior to anything in Mac OS X. In the future, Longhorn will further distance Windows from OS X. From a graphical standpoint, there won't be any comparison. Expect to be pleasantly surprised--dare I say "blown away"--when the Longhorn UI is revealed in October.



Some of the features like the fast searches (due to a databse like FS) a la BeOS do seem cool, but where do they get off thinking its all so new? That side bar thing seems rather reminicint of what was done in GNOME (with the gnome panel), and really the whole task orientated approach that was debuted in XP is occasionally useful, but hasn't really changed the way i use windows.

[edesignuk]

Originally posted by Zaid
Have you guys seen this?
http://www.winsupersite.com/faq/longhorn.asp



Some of the features like the fast searches (due to a databse like FS) a la BeOS do seem cool, but where do they get off thinking its all so new? That side bar thing seems rather reminicint of what was done in GNOME (with the gnome panel), and really the whole task orientated approach that was debuted in XP is occasionally useful, but hasn't really changed the way i use windows.
That sidebar is a joke, I have alpha build 4015 running @ home, and the sidebar is the single most useless thing I have ever seen....just as well you can turn it off IMO :D
As for all the "task orientated" stuff, I have all that turned off in WinXP as well, it just all gets in the way and takes up far to much space, not to mention just opening My Computer seems to take twice as line when it has to build that side pane with all those wonderful "task orientated" links :rolleyes:

[Lord Bodak]

Originally posted by mainstreetmark
Even MS has learned this lesson recently, so don't worry about that.


It's not like the recent worms were the first. MS never learns this lesson. Why should they when people continue buying their products anyway?

[Lord Bodak]

Originally posted by beg_ne
Something tells me when this database type layer gets corrupted you can kiss your files goodbye for good.

Exactly! Systems using a FAT or Superblock or whatever it is Mac's FS calls it are much more reliable, especially when it is backed up.

When my Linux drive failed last year, I was able to recover all my files because ext2 backs up the Superblock every x number of blocks on the drive.

[Lord Bodak]

Q: But Mac OS X already has a lot of these features. What's the big deal?

A: Apple has implemented some basic desktop composition features in Mac OS X "Panther," due this fall, and they appear to be quite impressive. But the basic problem with Mac OS X isn't going away: It's a classic desktop operating system that doesn't offer anything in the way of usability advancements over previous desktop operating systems. Today, Windows XP and its task-based interface are far superior to anything in Mac OS X. In the future, Longhorn will further distance Windows from OS X. From a graphical standpoint, there won't be any comparison. Expect to be pleasantly surprised--dare I say "blown away"--when the Longhorn UI is revealed in October.

What in the world does this mean? XP is really no different from 95, 98, NT4, 2000, and ME... it's not a "task-based interface" any more than any other Windows was.

Whoever wrote that blurb should be a politician.

[AppleMatt]

Originally posted by Lord Bodak
Exactly! Systems using a FAT or Superblock or whatever it is Mac's FS calls it are much more reliable, especially when it is backed up.

When my Linux drive failed last year, I was able to recover all my files because ext2 backs up the Superblock every x number of blocks on the drive.

You just said a whole lot of stuff I didn't understand, anyone care to help me out?

(Talk loudly, slowly and use colourful pictures when you do please)

As for task-orientated Windows...I think it's one of those things that will either completely take off or flop. I doubt more pro users will like it though.

AppleMatt

[rhpenguin]

Before i sold my PC a few months ago and bought my iBook, i played around with a few builds of this os. I can say that it really did not impress me at all. As said earlier it was like they were trying to take away my choice when it came down to carying out certant tasks in order to try and make it simple for the person who knows nothing. In my oppinion alot of the new features in this os are just "under the hood" features and a lot of features borrowed from other operating systmes and various desktop managers.


This release will have nothing new in it besides a few new search tools, a horrible looking ui and some messed up search features. If i gotta use Windows, lay the NT4 or Win2K on me.... I wont use anything else (on the windows side). But stick me with Mac OS X or Slackware Linux!

[Lord Bodak]

Originally posted by AppleMatt
You just said a whole lot of stuff I didn't understand, anyone care to help me out?

(Talk loudly, slowly and use colourful pictures when you do please)

Certainly.
Basically, under a traditional filesystem, you have a table stored on disk, generally called the FAT (File Allocation Table), stored at the beginning of the hard drive.

If you have a file called "readme.txt", for example, the FAT would know the name (readme.txt), the path (/home/mike or something similar) the size (100 bytes perhaps), and exactly where on the physical disk it's stored. If that table gets corrupted, your files are still there but you may not be able to get to them.

What Linux's filesystem does is create backups of this file at various points on the drive, instead of only at the beginning. I imagine other filesystems do this is well but I don't have any experience with them.

When my hard drive died, the damage seemed to be only at the beginning of the disk. Linux let me tell it "use the backup FAT to let me get my data" and I was able to recover everything.

[AppleMatt]

Ahhh excellent. I knew about the FAT side of that before, form personal experience unfortunately, but didn't know Linux had a superior system (I'm not surprised either)

Good stuff, cheers.

AppleMatt

[billyboy]

Has Longhorn addressed some really "hard to grasp" concept, like,

if one app crashes, the OS should practically always protect other apps, the computer and the user´s heart from a seizure.

If MS can factor in built-in security, firewall, virus unfriendly source code, non-intrusive help and a clutter free UI, BEFORE THEY THINK ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE, then they might be on to something.

As it is at this stage of the game, it seems like a 2nd grade graphic designers wet dream with all the eye candy and then some (isnt it that show-off graphics rush that Jaguar has been criticised for?) Until they trim an ever more complex bloaty software package that is bound to put millions of PC users back out on the shopping trail, then Longhorn seems to be just another twisted M$ marketing campaign waiting to happen.

And I hope they dont let my dad see it, because he will think its brill, buy it, get completely lost and have a cardiac.

[mainstreetmark]

Ok, it's time to ask.

What do they mean "Task Oriented"? I'm using XP right now, and am not sure how this is so different than previous windowses.

Is there an equivalent windows rumors site? (microsoft watch) I'd like someone with a post count above zero to post my original thread starter on there and see what kind of responses the windows side gives.

[grabberslasher]

Originally posted by zarathustra
Did you mean this? (see attached). Command click on the name of any Finder window. It even works in Photoshop (on an open document window), Illustrator and InDesign.

Not quite, in Longhorn you would then be able to see any of the other folders in the Quark 6 folder or in Spanky (ie Your applications, etc.)

[grabberslasher]

Task-orientated Windows means that if you click on a file in XP, at the side of the window it will give a list of task to do. Simple eh?

Print this file, e-mail this file to a friend, empty the trash.

Or you could look at the control panel:

What would you like to do?
Change my display settings...etc

Instead of having to select it in a menu, it is there for all beginners to see. Steve Jobs made mention in his WWDC keynote that some people hadn't even found "get info". In Panther there is the new action menu, but it is still just a menu.

Apparantly beginners like to see what they can do at a glance. Menus don't help in that respect.

[mainstreetmark]

Originally posted by grabberslasher
Task-orientated Windows means that if you click on a file in XP, at the side of the window it will give a list of task to do. Simple eh?


That's it? I wouldn't call that a Task-Oriented OS. I'd call it a Task-Oriented file browser. And, even that doesn't help me when some application is unaware of the "Desktop" concept, and I have to go C:->Docs Settings->Users->Mark->Desktop to find my stuff. And finding how large a folder is without getting a tooltip on it would be another nice 'task'.

In any event, I've never used those things. If I ever had to email a file, it wasn't because I was looking at a file, and clicked "Email it", it was because I was composing an email already and needed to attach something.

[Lord Bodak]

Originally posted by grabberslasher
Apparantly beginners like to see what they can do at a glance. Menus don't help in that respect.

And when beginners become experts it will still take them forever to do what they need to do because this "task-oriented" thing requires too many clicks.

I don't mean to sound elitist, but dumbing down the interface to the lowest common denominator is not the solution. Beginners will take a long time to do things either way (with the old method b/c it requires some understanding, with the new method b/c it's simply slow), but experts shouldn't have to slow down their work.

[Powerbook G5]

I always turn all that task oriented junk off whenever I do work on XP. It is the most annoying part of using it. They actually try to pass it off as being why Windows is ahead of the OS game over an inferior OS X? Talk about dilutional. XP is annoying enough, but if they make the entire OS even more of this, I'd want to just kick the PC whenever I walk past it.

As far as dumbing it all down, I think these people need to just learn to use the OS for themselves. I didn't become an advnanced poweruser by having the OS tell me how it thinks I can do a task, I found out for myself, poked around, and found out all the useful features for myself. How does Microsoft expect people to learn and become better, more intelligent users? I guess they rather keep them at that "I've got mail, yyyaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy!" stage. Means that they can only do or think what Microsoft wants them to and if they come out with a "better" OS a month later for 3 times the cost, they'd go out and buy it just because Microsoft says they should. I guess after Longhorn comes out, it will just be an apparent fact that Mac users are intelligent and Windows users are "special".

[OutThere]

I think that the last time M$ made a big jump in the behvior/ performance of their OS was when they moved from 3.1 to 95. Since then there hasn't been anything more than interface "enhancements":rolleyes: and things that M$ can brag about but truly don't do anything, like the 'task oriented OS.' I would think that the best thing for a new user to do would be to get a quick tour of how to run the computer, then have someone to call or be there when they are wondering about something. If the OS caters to their needs and simplifies how things work then the new user will never learn things that they need to to know to use windows right. There are many things that are needed when you use windows that don't get done, such as cache cleansing, defragging, etc. etc. that someone completely sheltered from the wasteland of the Windows OS does not find out about. Things that make an OS easier to use always end up preventing the user from having to learn to use the OS, instead of learning to use the simplified stuff that M$ spoon feeds them. There is one thing lacking in OS X, which is a way of informing people that permissions need to be repaired once a month. Nothing in windows says that you have to defrag and empty temp. files and update to the latest patch every so often. Having a very simple system will only keep users content and thinking that their computer is running fine and dandy, when there are 500 patches waiting, every file is fragmented and there are 5 gigs of temp. files. Simplifying everything is not the way to go. Computers right now need a lot of maintenance from the user, and no matter how much M$ will try to ignore it, it is very true.


BTW: That taskbar thing on the side is like a hermit living on your prime golf course real estate. Its a good thing you can turn it off.:p

[mainstreetmark]

yes, but isn't "Ease of Use" the whole Apple claim, anyways? You think MS is responding to that threat, by making Windows Easier to use?

Why isn't cache cleaning and patching handled by the OS anyways?

[Independence]

Originally posted by xpormac
Lol, a line from airplane 2....
the line was from "2001: A Space Odyssey".

[xpormac]

Originally posted by Independence
the line was from "2001: A Space Odyssey".


From both actually :D Airplane 2...funny movie, recommend it to everyone with a sense of humor :D

[legion]

Originally posted by billyboy

if one app crashes, the OS should practically always protect other apps, the computer and the user´s heart from a seizure.

already there. You can also set thread priorities for each apps individual processes and how much protected memory to give


If MS can factor in built-in security, firewall, virus unfriendly source code, non-intrusive help and a clutter free UI, BEFORE THEY THINK ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE, then they might be on to something.

There is already a built in firewall and you can select non-intrusive help. The UI can also be made relatively clutterfree.

My big thing is you have to turn all of this "on." I'm guessing MS is assuming that power users will know how to do this and do so while newbies will need all this extra help and so they keep the crap on by default. They should just have a "power user" install option to make everything less "user-friendly" and more direct.

I personally don't give a rat's ass about task based computing. In it's current implementation it already annoys me (I have it turned off.) It's much like "Ask Jeeves"; give me boolean searching any day over that question based approach.

My main interest in Longhorn is if they implement the much-talked about database structure to the file system and OS. That would be a tremendous improvement over all OSs on the market and finally be an interesting field of OS advancement (verses adding more eye candy and making things more user-friendly which is all just crap tech that uses processor cycles and ram for no good reason) With OSs getting bigger (all of them, not just Windows) and hard drives and data files getting bigger, something needs to fundamentally be changed with file structuring (and I don't just mean front-end stuff such as the rumoured "piles" tech)

My only worry is if MS is able to implement this, at least somewhat effectively, first, it'll prevent systems like MacOS X and Linux from adopting the tech sooner and personally I'd like it to trickle down into all OSs.

[billyboy]

Originally posted by legion
already there. You can also set thread priorities for each apps individual processes and how much protected memory to give


My big thing is you have to turn all of this "on."

It seems as though Apple and MS have very different ideas on intrusiveness. On default OSX is very bossy in that it does not assume that the user knows best about memory and nuts and bolts requirements for an efficient background system. Conversely on the front end, it is very transparent and obviously is almost devoid of self generating "helpful" advice.

MS is very bossy on the front end on default, yet requires users to turn quite important background processes on.

I guess you take your choice and your chance.

I expect power users on either OS can make their machines dance, and know what to tweak and twiddle, but they are a minority, and it is the masses who should be the developers priority. After a few hours today on XP I imagine them working on Longhorn must be a new breed of Microsofty, because I really dont see how anyone can say the current herd of Windows developers are that clued up on producing a user friendly task oriented system.

My mate and I had a task - our first go at sharing files between my PB and his PC. What a fricking pollaver. Reading off the same idiot proof instructions, pictures and all, do you think we could find the right dialogue boxes in Windows. Having done it once, obviously its a doodle to reconnect, but everything on the Mac was so easy to find, yet it was like looking for a needle in a haystack on the other side of the fence. Of course you could say we were thick, so what would you expect, but we arent total klutzes and we arent in the minority. Longhorn has to be a quantum leap to make OSX look backward.

[DakotaGuy]

I have to say however Fisher Price is going to be upset with the icon for the "contacts" folder. That is a ripoff from the Fisher Price "Little People" play sets. I guess they did remove the facial features however...

[Powerbook G5]

Not only that, but it looks like Microsoft ripped off Tyco's industrial designs, too! :D

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by AppleMatt
You just said a whole lot of stuff I didn't understand, anyone care to help me out?

(Talk loudly, slowly and use colourful pictures when you do please)

As for task-orientated Windows...I think it's one of those things that will either completely take off or flop. I doubt more pro users will like it though.

AppleMatt

Imagine your disk like a three-story-tall library, and all the covers have been ripped off all the books and most of the books have been torn into multiple parts and strewn throughout. The "Superblock" (never heard it called that ... is that a Mac term?) or File Allocation Table is kinda like the card catalog. It's an index that tells where the actual files are on disk.

You want "My Report" and the index says "go to the second floor, third aisle, find it wedged between 'History of World War 2' and 'Gulliver's Travels'" ... except more often than not it continues, "then find the second chapter two floors down between your spam email from the Nigerian dictator and your 32nd copy of the Blaster worm, and for the third chapter ..."

As you can imagine, without such a card catalogue you'd never find anything. So, if it becomes corrupted, you're SOL.

Fortunately, modern file systems protect this index in multiple ways (redundancy being the most basic).

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by grabberslasher
Not quite, in Longhorn you would then be able to see any of the other folders in the Quark 6 folder or in Spanky (ie Your applications, etc.)

I don't see the advantage there, though.

Sure, it is nice to be able to go up one or two or "n" levels in your file tree. How often, though, do you go "up one and across"?

Personally, if I'm going "up one and across", I'm also going down a few after having gone across. Which, really, the old Windows Address Bar paradigm worked a heck of a lot better for than what's shown here ... I mean, it is quite common for me to be going from c:\dev\myapp\branch1\project\resources\ to c:\dev\myapp\branch2\project\resources\ than for me to go to c:\dev\myapp\branch2. Yes, the "up and over" navigation style saves me precisely one click over a "just up" navigation widget, but it also costs me in complexity (there's no way MS will have both the address bar and this breadcrumbs widget visible at the same time, right? But an OS X-style widget can easily share a window with an address bar ...)

IMHO, this is precisely why the column view isn't incredibly useful (although, having the hierarchy trailing off to the left is sometimes useful, and the only reason I ever use column view ...)

[DillHarris]

If the goal is ease of use, what is up with words like "partnerships"? Sounds like my devices are having some kind of sexual encounter with my computer. :eek:

[Macnotxp]

Originally posted by xpormac
Can't wait, seems like its going to be great :D .

Oh, but I'm sorry you will have to wait, a very long wait, it's not coming before 2006. :eek: And by then OS X will be 3 years further ahead than it is already. :D

[xpormac]

Originally posted by Macnotxp
Oh, but I'm sorry you will have to wait, a very long wait, it's not coming before 2006. :eek: And by then OS X will be 3 years further ahead. :D


Til then i'm ok with xp ;)


btw, nice name lol :D

[Horrortaxi]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
I thought they got slapped on the wrists already for trying to integrate IE into Windows, so why are they trying to do it yet again?

That was good for business! As a result of that they had to do something "nice" for some schools. They donated a bunch of computers with...hmm...what os again? Oh yeah, Windows. And they came with really fun EULAs that said that no non-microsoft products could ever be installed on them. Now when Longhorn comes along they'll apparently be able to enforce those kinds of things--and you can bet they will. Not only can Microsoft make lemons into lemonade, they can make anything into lemonade just by insisting that it's lemonade for long enough. They're a scary little organization.

[Rezet]

well, personally i think it looks pretty cool. BUt OSX still looks better. When is it coming out btw?

[Marble]

Late 2005.

What I see in this is, perhaps vindictively, another attempt on the part of Microsoft to copy a corporate strategy that Apple began to push a long time ago: Simplicity. Windows is currently pretty convoluted, so addressing the complexity of the operating experience is MS's first step towards creating a better OS, but also, "coincidentally," that also means an OS more similar to Mac OS X.
I don't think they will ever accomplish their goal. Mac OS X has simplicity implicit in its interface. It is not only relatively easy to send email and listen to music, but it is also easy to burn a CD, create movies, and interact with other computers over otherwise complex local and foreign networks. Without all the candy-colored tips.
My point is that simplicity is part of Mac OS X's nature, whereas Microsoft is trying to make their complex operating system simple to use. There better be a whole lot more candy-colored tips.

[Macmaniac]

I like how MS has adopted the Apple aqua color for their logo in Longhorn. Geez they can sure copy.
My wintel buddies are so happy "It has a perfect Kernal Bill wrote it himself"
We all know what that means.

[xpormac]

Originally posted by Macmaniac
I like how MS has adopted the Apple aqua color for their logo in Longhorn.


Just because apple has a color doesn't mean microsoft copied it :rolleyes:

[Macnotxp]

Originally posted by xpormac
Just because apple has a color doesn't mean microsoft copied it :rolleyes:

You're right, we all know Microsoft wouldn't dream of doing a thing like copying the ideas of their competition. ;) And yes, Longhorn's release date has indeed slipped yet again and that earlier 2005 prediction is not looking too promising. :eek:

http://www.macminute.com/2003/09/01/longhorn

[evilsprung]

speaking of longhorn's UI, I saw some technology demonstrations for it on extremetech. Anyways I was wondering did apple ever release tech demos for quartz extreme? Some of the things that they do for the longhorn demos are quite impressive.

[Schiffi]

impressive, yes...
utterly useless...yes

At least with OSX's genie effect it tells the user where his minimized window goes.

[evilsprung]

its not useless as a demonstration. Also, you never answered my question on whether apple released any quartz extreme demos, especially ones similar to the longhorn ones

[AppleMatt]

I think it was more to show the capabilities of the system the are developing more than specific applications.

I don't know if Apple released demos of QE.

AppleMatt

[5300cs]

What the hell is that stupid thing on the right, a compass? It sure doesn't look like a clock. That dock looks totally useless, but what else can I expect from M$?
With all the releases in the windows family, all I ever see them doing is adding useless cosmetic crap. The default XP theme is okay, but looks too much like a kindergarten classroom. A friend said "You can turn it all off and it'll look like win2k". The point then, of upgrading to XP would be...?
Stability-wise, XP is not too shabby, but they've had enough tries by now. I have it on a crappy VAIO and it does it's job, but I would never switch back and use an M$ OS as my primary OS.

[iTag]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ah ahhaahahahahahahaha omg its coming back its coming back run run run for the hills.ahahahahahah

Long what ???

Ok i admit it i was windows user sill iam i used windows 95 98 skpped straight though to windows xp home got pro at the moment because its more stable than home but just happend to work with windows me jezzz christ wtf was that tin can rubish piled do da dally wwang my 2 year old daughter could do better reset for this reset for that i had to reset just to change the display settings 3 times becasue it couldnt work out what i was doing driver support bloody hell think long horn is going to need somthing much more than better driver support try the following...... Bulid somthing that works dosnt need updating every 24 hours with 1 hour off because its got too rest up. glad i bough my g3 and soon to be g4 nope g5 not ready for you my pet..

Long horn needs looking at kicking pushed and stopmped on if anything else oh yea the nice colours are great i want somthing that will work not look nice hence linux AND Mac osx long live the Mac


Ok ive done enough here

[Bluefusion]

Originally posted by grabberslasher

2) It has a nifty feature that is hard to explain... it allows you to open the parent folder of any folder or the parent of any folder you have open. Sounds confusing...

OK, say I opened "/Users/grabberslasher/Documents".

With one click of a button in the address bar in Longhorn, I would be able to open the hard disk root, "Users" folder or the "grabberslasher" folder. And just by selecting a pull down menu I could then open the "/system" folder or "/applications", or any other folder in each level. Very hard to understand without a picture but it's all I can do. Trust me, it's very handy.


Not much innovation here.

In any OS X web browser, or in IE for OS 9, if you hold down Command and click on the window's name up top, you get a hierarchial list (based on history at the current site)... try it in Safari.

In OS 8, 9 and X, Command-clicking any window's titlebar brings up a hierarchial view of what folder it's in, and what folder that's in, etc.

To go one step further, Customize your toolbar for the Finder window, and choose the "Path" icon (first row of icons, next to Back and Forward); same feature now vaunted in Longhorn... been with us for 6 years :D

Ya learn something every day, ay?

(image on the left is via titlebar, image on right is via Path icon--both are available regardless of the view you are in.)

(edit: this feature was introduced in OS 8, not 9)

[Bluefusion]

woops, forgot to post the image... here:

[sphereboy]

Boring! by the time that comes out.. it's old newz .. old technology..

windows may be the dominant force and will be successful, but they sure as hell won't make me want to switch back to them.

I switched from a longtime PC and ever since have yet to see my PC the same again. Unfortunately, my PowerBook was stolen some time ago, so i am back to my PChit at home.

Saving my pennies for a G5.

The point to my post, Screw windows. I'd rather use linux.

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by themadchemist

-and the old "you can't get any software for the Mac" argument has already gone the hell away, except for a few select games.


http://www.microsoft.com/mappoint/


You find me software that is as useful as MS MapPoint coupled with GPS and you will never hear another word from me about software. Until then ROTFL.

[MacsRgr8]

Any idea what Apple would have thought up by then? We are talking 2 years from now! Apple will be showing off 10.4 (errr 10.5 even??).... 2 years AGO we were thinking 10.1. Look where we are now!
WOW!
Apple has done some serious good business in 2003! Panther, G5, iTMS... too much to mention :)

[FattyMembrane]

Originally posted by Bluefusion

In OS 8, 9 and X, Command-clicking any window's titlebar brings up a hierarchial view of what folder it's in, and what folder that's in, etc.

it's been there since at least 7.5 (just had to mention that so that we can say ms will be 10 years behind). i find the saddest part of this entire fiasco (and the fiasco surround every upcoming windows release) to be the necessity of ms to do tech demos of features that will be in their software 2 years from now that are commonplace in the mac os. windows users don't know any better because they all think that the mac is just for graphics and it can't get on the internet, it's a mystical force that has never been seen, just hinted at in magazines. MR needs to sponsor a rebroadcast of some of these tech demos for upcoming windows releases where after every announced feature, a voice-over gives the date it was added to the mac os.

as far as the interface is concerned, it's an ugly copy, which all ms interfaces are, but the point is not that it's ugly, it's that ms has to keep changing the interface so that people think it's a new system. the mac os had the same interface for versions 1-7.6 (excluding the slight addition of color of course) and we all still used macs, because it was a better system.

[mainstreetmark]

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
http://www.microsoft.com/mappoint/


You find me software that is as useful as MS MapPoint coupled with GPS and you will never hear another word from me about software. Until then ROTFL.

Actually, that's a good example of quasi-mainstream software that I can't seem to find a Mac equivalent of. I went straight to delorme.com, but couldn't find Mac support.

Oh well, I'm sure it'll come.

That may work pretty good in VPC, tho.

[Bluefusion]

Originally posted by FattyMembrane
it's been there since at least 7.5 (just had to mention that so that we can say ms will be 10 years behind). i find the saddest part of this entire fiasco (and the fiasco surround every upcoming windows release) to be the necessity of ms to do tech demos of features that will be in their software 2 years from now that are commonplace in the mac os. windows users don't know any better because they all think that the mac is just for graphics and it can't get on the internet, it's a mystical force that has never been seen, just hinted at in magazines. MR needs to sponsor a rebroadcast of some of these tech demos for upcoming windows releases where after every announced feature, a voice-over gives the date it was added to the mac os.
[...........]
the mac os had the same interface for versions 1-7.6 (excluding the slight addition of color of course) and we all still used macs, because it was a better system.

Both good points, and I agree with both :) Part of the difference with the Mac is that software updates actually accomplish something useful, without resorting to "let's make a new skin for it and call it new"... case in point, 10.1, 10.2 and now 10.3... hundreds of major and minor improvements and enhancements (Panther being the most unbelievable makeover so far) with each update.

What's really new in XP? :P 2000? "increased stability". 98? Um.... "you know... stuff....".

Your $200 (or $130, in our case) update price gets you a LOT more on the Mac, and the updates are faster, too. The enhancements Apple adds with each update are incentive on their own to upgrade, while XP (and Longhorn) are only going to be bought because "new programs will need them"...

What a pathetic way to produce software.

[chadfromdallas]

Originally posted by Bluefusion
The enhancements Apple adds with each update are incentive on their own to upgrade, while XP (and Longhorn) are only going to be bought because "new programs will need them"...

What a pathetic way to produce software.



I had to upgrade to OSX to use my new programs....I didn't care for new features.... its exactly the same.....

[Bluefusion]

Yes, but you can't argue that OS X introduced an absolutely ridiculous AMOUNT of new features... whether you use them or not is entirely your choice, but it's not as if it doesn't have 'em... whereas something like XP really doesn't bring anything new at all, even though it was supposed to be as vaunted an upgrade as OS X (a few years late, but hey...)...

[Bluefusion]

...and how can you possibly say that OS X is "exactly the same"? Are we talking about the same system here? lol...

[AppleMatt]

"new features" and "exactly the same" in the same sentence, I'd ignore it.

I agree Apple need a more aggressive marketing campaign, Switch was good, but the current Apple ads have gone back to preaching to the converted. Saying that, 50% of Apple's sales have been to switchers recently...

AppleMatt

[Bluefusion]

50%? Really? Nice.

(I've hated Switch since it debuted, for the record...)

Macrumors is going to need to change its look for Panther soon :P

Anyway, a lot could be done to improve Apple's advertising, starting with FIRING their entire current department and starting with something else, heh... :)

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by mainstreetmark
Actually, that's a good example of quasi-mainstream software that I can't seem to find a Mac equivalent of. I went straight to delorme.com, but couldn't find Mac support.

Oh well, I'm sure it'll come.

That may work pretty good in VPC, tho.

Oh I know it does. I've already been in a Mac store and loaded it up on a 1.25Ghz PowerMac under VPC to see how it runs. Obviously not as fast as on the PC but its acceptable. Its a given I would rather have native software on the Mac esp when dealing with GPS so for the time being, or more accurately when I get a Mac, I'm going to be stuck with VPN for use with MapPoint. *sighs*

*takes a deep breath*

As for Longhorn. It’s a mixed bag. Everyone needs to keep in mind that, that eye candy as you call it was intended to keep the user preoccupied for the next 2 years. Sort of how you might give a dog a toy while you take him to the vet to be put to sleep. Poor dumb Windows bastards ;)
I'm NOT going to discount Longhorn. It’s still WAY too early. Any builds put out at this point is so far from final release it’s not even worth looking at. They could easily redesign the entire GUI by the time 2005 rolls around. At most it’s a blueprint of what is going to be released in 2005 not the final form.
Also as I've mentioned in other threads Longhorn is “supposedly” being written literally from the ground up. Whether or not MS makes a concerted effort to secure the OS remains to be seen but we already know that they do have the ability to make a stable OS, I point you at Windows 2000 as an example. What Microsoft IS doing to make Longhorn more stable is requiring drivers that pass an MS integrity check. Supposedly all drivers NEED to be signed in Longhorn. In 2K and XP this was optional. This no longer will be the case. I’ve found that at least, rough guess ballpark here, 60%-80% of the crashes I’ve eXPerienced :p in 2K and XP are related to hardware. By requiring hardware manufacturers to meet a certain specs it somewhat insures that any instability in Windows won’t come from driver issues.

Then you get into software compatibility. This is where things get rather nasty for MS. The reason they’ve never strayed far from the 9x or NT cores is because of software compatibility. Again as I’ve mentioned in other threads MS has intentionally left vulnerabilities in Windows to allow certain functionality. (Security through obscurity.) This came to light during the MS anti-trust hearings when the states asked for the source code for Windows.
Does anyone here truly think MS purchased VPC because they just wanted to kill off Apple? I’ve talked to several MS employees and there is high speculation that the 9x and NT (Maybe even DOS!!!) environments are going to be emulated in a sandboxed VPC sessions on Longhorn allowing full backwards compatibility. (Why do you think the release date for Longhorn was pushed back? I’m betting they realized there was no surefire method of allowing backwards software compatibility while securing the system. So along comes VPC. Again pure speculation on my part but I’m willing to bet the main reason was to use it on its server software to allow virtual servers to run but I’m also quite certain soon after a light bulb went on over at MS that the same could be done to Longhorn. Yep you are probably thinking the same thing as me. It’s a band-aid patch for the massive blunders MS made in the past with security but honestly it could work. That brings us to security in longhorn. As I mentioned longhorn is “supposedly” being rewritten from the ground up but MS has this nasty habit of recycling code. Why do you think the RPC hole exists in NT, 2K, XP, and 2003? Say it with me. Code recycling.
If Microsoft does this in Longhorn all bets are off on security. If not and they make a real, true effort to secure the system, *shrugs* who knows. :confused:

Also you have Palladium. Or as MS has renamed it: “next-generation secure computing base” (Because if you make it a long phrase that sounds high tech it’s going to make everyone love it. :rolleyes: ) This **** gives me a headache. I honestly don’t know what to make of it other then it scares the crap out of me. I’ve heard so many rumors about it and Longhorn that I truly don’t know what is going to happen. Here’s what I’ve heard:
1. That Longhorn is going to have the option of enabling it on install of the OS but by default it’s off.
2. There will be two flavors of Windows. One with it integrated and locked down by default and one that doesn’t have it at all.
3. That there will be certain levels of Palladium that can be enabled on Longhorn.
4. That you will have no option but to use Palladium and Palladium compatible hardware.

Take your pick. It could be any or it might be something else altogether.


MS has never, AFAICR, pushed a project back by years. They know that this is going to hurt their bottom line badly. But they also know the massive security embarrassments that have been literally making front-page news is hurting them as well. So they really are stuck between a rock and a hard place. All I can do at this point is laugh my butt off. They made their bed and now..well you know the rest. Microsoft put themselves in this situation and they should feel a bit of pain over it. (God knows the rest of us have.) The question is are they feeling enough of that pain to do something about it? Microsoft has always been paranoid about their market share and anyone who might invade their turf. The funny thing is that Microsoft’s own worst enemy at this point IS Microsoft. I think they may be starting to realize this and may make appropriate changes however, that is only part of Microsoft’s problem.
The other half of the equation is their continuing, downright bizarre, arrogance in the face of growing competition. Admittedly small competition at this point, neither Linux nor OS X is going anywhere for a while but it is growing. Their arrogance has always been there but I really don’t think it took off until Windows 2000 came out. There was a distinct change in their attitude. They knew they had something solid and reliable and acted like cock of the walk. Soon after you had new initiatives like .NET, playing around with what browser can access MS owned websites, product activation in XP, stricter business grade licensing, etc, etc, etc. When 2K came out I was so gung ho over it, it was pretty pathetic. I thought MS finally was cleaning up their act. Then the arrogance took over and my love hate relationship with that company started. At this point there isn’t any love left. I hate Microsoft and with the exception of a few applications such as Eacarta DVD, and MapPoint (FYI-All of which were “acquired”.) MS can take their attitude and stuff it up Billy Boys rump.
I do believe that Longhorn has potential. A lot actually. But there are a series of things that need to happen with the software and with Microsoft to have it fly. Otherwise MS is going to have a half-dud on its hands. I say haft because a majority of its sales comes from preinstalled OEM versions. You order a Dell its not like you can get OS X or Linux installed on it.
Sorry. I turned my 1 paragraph comment into a book again. :p

[evilsprung]

As I mentioned longhorn is “supposedly” being rewritten from the ground up but MS has this nasty habit of recycling code. Why do you think the RPC hole exists in NT, 2K, XP, and 2003? Say it with me. Code recycling.

Geez you make it sound like code recycling is a bad thing. But code recycling happens all the time in software development. Refactorization is the best thing you can have in software development; I mean why try to re-invent the freaking wheel? Of course, granted that the code they wrote probably wasn't the best, but that all goes back into your citation of security through obscurity. Now that in itself maybe bad practice or bad software design, but hell I wouldnt doubt if they took that as a business decision. And that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by evilsprung
Geez you make it sound like code recycling is a bad thing. But code recycling happens all the time in software development. Refactorization is the best thing you can have in software development; I mean why try to re-invent the freaking wheel? Of course, granted that the code they wrote probably wasn't the best, but that all goes back into your citation of security through obscurity. Now that in itself maybe bad practice or bad software design, but hell I wouldnt doubt if they took that as a business decision. And that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Nope I have no problems with code recycling as long as it's been picked clean of security holes and bugs.

[Bluefusion]

I think the issue here is that "code recycling" is supposed to be helpful for the developers, but all too often for MS it makes them lazy. "Why rewrite when we can reuse?" they say... and none of the bugs get fixed.

[evilsprung]

Originally posted by Bluefusion
I think the issue here is that "code recycling" is supposed to be helpful for the developers, but all too often for MS it makes them lazy. "Why rewrite when we can reuse?" they say... and none of the bugs get fixed.

Well if I might say, that seems a little presumptuous. I mean how do you know that for Microsoft it means laziness? I mean sure in terms of a quality to the end user it may not be on par with what you want but it could be enough for others. Also, for all you know something like refactorization might be critical to their business model, if they have one, or their design model. I'm sure Apple does the same thing, and all in all it's a matter of where each company wants to put its resources. Maybe in terms of sercurity holes and what not that's where it costs Microsoft, but don't go freaking down playing almost prejudicedly for what the do.

[Bluefusion]

I'm not downplaying them, I'm just saying that their programmers have almost ALWAYS taken the easy way out (look at their security flaws, their bugs, their many interface atrocities that were later corrected because no one could stand them)... Microsoft is CERTAINLY not alone in that, and Apple reuses code as well, I'm sure... the difference being that ALL of Windows is rewritten code, while Apple's usually changed a fair amount of code in each Classic update, and COMPLETELY overhauled everything in OS X 10.0 and 10.1 (10.2 wasn't a major "plumbing" overhaul, but Panther is).

I don't hate Microsoft the way some people do, but I do hate their policies and their attitude towards their customers. Their style is largely based on reusing what they DO create, and taking *major* pointers from others... to put it mildly.

It may be presumptious, but I think it's largely the truth. However, many companies do it... but my point is that they're not doing it as much as MS is famous for doing. One look at Win 95 through ME is all you need...

[AppleMatt]

Bluefusion,

While I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with what you are saying, do you have any backup? I mean, theoretically you would have to reverse-engineer two versions of Windows and two versions of Mac OS X, compare them, to finally get an idea of how much has changed.

As for code being re-used, that's fundamental to any developer, re-writing the same thing over and over would sky-rocket development costs, and also introduces more possibility of error.

AppleMatt

[mainstreetmark]

Hey, they did have one striking contribution to the world of GUI ... that little arrow indicating an alias/shortcut

[Bluefusion]

Originally posted by AppleMatt
Bluefusion,

While I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with what you are saying, do you have any backup? I mean, theoretically you would have to reverse-engineer two versions of Windows and two versions of Mac OS X, compare them, to finally get an idea of how much has changed.


As I'm far from a software engineer I can't say that I have conclusive proof, no... but I think that a lot of it speaks for itself. Take, for example, the transition from System 7.5 to OS 8. The introduction of the first (for the Mac) multitasking, a new appearance, dramatically redone APIs, new 3D support, new media features in a new version of QuickTime...

What really changed in Windows 98? Updated drivers, slight mods to the GUI... of course the code changed; if you look in terms of raw writing of code, I'm sure Windows went through more "pages" of changes, due to the fact that it was MONSTROUSLY bigger than OS 8! But I do stand by my original point--very little changes in Windows from revision to revision; often the exact same bugs go unfixed, and the exact same problems keep occuring. At least in OS 8 most, if not all, of the issues that people experienced with 7.6.1 (to my knowledge, the last version of the 7's) were fixed. Granted, new problems were introduced, but the system was VERY different.

By the same token, not too much really changed from OS 8.6 to OS 9, while Windows metamorphosed to.... Windows ME. Hmm. Sometimes change isn't good. :D

As for code being re-used, that's fundamental to any developer, re-writing the same thing over and over would sky-rocket development costs, and also introduces more possibility of error.


Undoubtedly--are you aware, for example, that Photoshop shares roughly 30% of its codebase with Photoshop 1.0 (which ran in b&w and had, if i remember correctly, 7 tools)? :) Reusal of code is a very good thing... but all I'm saying is that Microsoft could try harder to FIX problems, by rewriting their code, and they continually seem to refuse doing as such.

[AppleMatt]

Bluefusion,

Good points. I'm just glad they were backed rather than "lets whack Microsoft " ;)

I tend to agree, System 7.5.5 > 8.1 was a major leap. I never had 8.6 so can't comment, but still use 9.2.2 regularly. I stand by my belief that Apple updates increase speed, where Microsoft decrease.

I think part of it is what Microsoft have done to themselves, such a massive OS (bloat) and such a massive software dependancy that a re-write at this stage would be impossible, so they are having to nip and tuck what they have, thus, the same problems carry through. The Classic Mac OS was heading this way (in respect to adding to it), and the fact Apple pulled off converting it's user base to a completely different OS is credit to them, essentially they've guaranteed the OS's future.

However it's not all great, QuickTime in OS X still has OS 9 code in it (I still can't get over that!)

AppleMatt

[evilsprung]

Originally posted by Bluefusion
As I'm far from a software engineer I can't say that I have conclusive proof, no... but I think that a lot of it speaks for itself. Take, for example, the transition from System 7.5 to OS 8. The introduction of the first (for the Mac) multitasking, a new appearance, dramatically redone APIs, new 3D support, new media features in a new version of QuickTime...



But you forget that these are two different systems. I'm not to0 huge on the history of apple's hardware and software, being a newbie to this all, but I wouldnt doubt that because Apple closely ties its hardware with its software it had an easier time to get stuff like that done.
Hell, look at PC's they got different components being made by a hell of a lot of other companies. Windows in some ways, it would seem, has to almost generalize itself whether by known standards or by its own means of "making standards" please everyone. So in terms of refactorization, it probably helped them a hell of a lot especially with backward compatibility and other issues. In particular as well, when they have to get working on the next versions of their products. I mean who knows maybe they didnt have time to full dedicate resources to improve those things, but obviously now they do and i think that's what should matter. But I digress

[5300cs]

Originally posted by AppleMatt
Bluefusion,

Good points. I'm just glad they were backed rather than "lets whack Microsoft " ;)

I tend to agree, System 7.5.5 > 8.1 was a major leap. I never had 8.6 so can't comment, but still use 9.2.2 regularly. I stand by my belief that Apple updates increase speed, where Microsoft decrease.

I think part of it is what Microsoft have done to themselves, such a massive OS (bloat) and such a massive software dependancy that a re-write at this stage would be impossible, so they are having to nip and tuck what they have, thus, the same problems carry through. The Classic Mac OS was heading this way (in respect to adding to it), and the fact Apple pulled off converting it's user base to a completely different OS is credit to them, essentially they've guaranteed the OS's future.

However it's not all great, QuickTime in OS X still has OS 9 code in it (I still can't get over that!)

AppleMatt
OS 6 was really fast, 7 slowed it down. 7.5 was not liked by many people I know because they said it was too unstable. 7.6 was OK. 8.0 & 8.1 were quite fast, then came 8.5 which required a PowerPC processor. I installed 7.6, 8.1 & 8.5 on my 5300cs (ppc 100Mhz) and there is a huge difference between 8.1 & 8.5. 8.5 is much slower on older ppc machines. 8.5, 8.6, 9.0, 9.1 & 9.2 I can't tell the difference between- you're right, the OS was heading in the M$ direction.

I didn't know QuickTime has OS 9 code .. how'd you find that out?

[scem0]

Looks better than XP.

Looks worse than 98' SE.

M$ OS's suck.

M$ mouses rock.

scem0

[AppleMatt]

Originally posted by 5300cs
OS 6 was really fast, 7 slowed it down. 7.5 was not liked by many people I know because they said it was too unstable. 7.6 was OK. 8.0 & 8.1 were quite fast, then came 8.5 which required a PowerPC processor. I installed 7.6, 8.1 & 8.5 on my 5300cs (ppc 100Mhz) and there is a huge difference between 8.1 & 8.5. 8.5 is much slower on older ppc machines. 8.5, 8.6, 9.0, 9.1 & 9.2 I can't tell the difference between- you're right, the OS was heading in the M$ direction.

I didn't know QuickTime has OS 9 code .. how'd you find that out?

Ahhh OS 6, memories! yeah that was crikey fast, updating to 7 was like updating from 7>8 on a 68040, slowed it right down :(.

Also I know it sounds silly, but even in 9.2.2 there was a lot of the "old" stuff in, old control panels, old apps etc. They looked and felt old, and didn't really fit in with the Platinum fit and finish. I always thought Apple should have released 9.3, just to tie up loose ends (especially now that 9.2.2 retail CD's won't boot some machines).

As for OS9 code in QuickTime, I found it out here. Someone posted quite detailed information on it which I saved but later lost, it included information about calls and the performance hits that it ensued. If anyone reading this knows more or knows who posted it, the info or links would be great.

Originally posted by scem0
LM$ mouses rock.

Mine blew up the other day. Well it didn't actually blow up and rip my hand off, but one of the batteries went "thwack...hisssssssssssssssss", scared the bejesus out of me (it was about 2am and absolutely silent). Note to self: Stop buying cheap batteries.

AppleMatt

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by scem0


M$ mouses rock.

scem0

I hate to admit it..and go OT here...but I love MS hardware. My intelliexplorer mouse has been rock solid since day one. My Force Feedback Pro 2 joystick is the ****. The problem with the FF was when I got my Dell Optiplex the joystick was incompatible with the audio card so as soon as I installed the joystick drivers boom. The soundcard stopped working. It took me a week to find a technote on MS's site about it. Once again MS software crapsmanship at its finest.
My point is that when MS really focuses on something and stops dicking around they can put out some pretty decent products.

[Bluefusion]

You know, I've never been fond of the Microsoft mice--and it has nothing to do with the brand name. I just don't like the tensile strength on the buttons, and I've always thought the tracking wasn't terribly good. I have to admit they make good joysticks, but I don't have any need for one.

And MS keyboards just suck.

LOGITECH, on the other hand... w00t. Love 'em :)

[Powerbook G5]

I also have to admit, in my experience, MS hardware is usually top rate. I've had Microsoft joysticks, mice, the Xbox, and a Microsoft hub/switch and they are all really great. They usually last and have good attention to detail. It makes you wonder why they don't just go into the hardware business because their software typically bites the big one (although they have some pretty decent games, too).

[Bluefusion]

They can't go into the hardware business fully.. their name is microSOFT! :P

Microhard really doesn't sound right...

[Marble]

Very funny.. :)

Microsoft has published some decent games, but most of those games come from independent companies that are purchased by Microsoft, and hence use the label.

[benixau]

yeah well i have only one complaint about my microhard mouse: my dad wants it,
and so does my bro (pmac, emac respectively).
If MS made a KB for the mac that had all of the keys that apples does then i doubt that apple would make many after market kb sales ever again.

[Bluefusion]

Nah, I doubt it... I really don't like the MS key response (too PC-ish), and it has nothing to do with the name (I don't like Logitech's keyboards either, although I think they're a little better)...

Despite the ridiculous price, I still think there's really nothing quite like the Pro Keyboard. The Pro Mouse, on the other hand... gaaah. Got me a mouse about 10 minutes after opening my iMac, hah.

[mp3sk8er]

to start:

me = windows user since 95
me = mac user since os x
me �‚ mac hater/lover
me �‚ windows hater/lover

there, now for my rant... i love windows... it's simple and friendly (sometimes a little bit too friendly) and i love macs just as much (possibly more because of how beautiful ever piece of it is). both opperating systems are about equal... but if i had any choice of compy it would be a g5 dual 2.0 with 4gb ram and a 23" cinema monitor with panther running. i could do just about anything and everything i wanted with that beast... but yet it's beautful... every part of it... the gui... the actual machine... it's a work of art... the only part about macs is price range... for a thousand bucks i could get a 2.0ghtz 512ram p4 pc with accesories (including monitor) but only an emac with 1ghtz 256ram w/ superdrive and the accesories... that's the only thing that has stopped me from totally switching to mac... i use them at work and love them... i use pcs at school and despise them... i use windows at home and the only way i can stand it is if i change all the setting s down so i have minimal resource usage and at that it looks like classic moe (which i think is better than xp) and i use it becuase it works and it's all i have... to get an equally as good setup as mine in mac form i would need twice as much money. in the end though (as in when i get some money) i will have a nice fast pc (for gaming) and an ok g4powerbook (for portable production) and hopefully a nice g5 (for production)... they will all be networked and bluetooth compatible but i would spend my days in front of that g5... just watching that wicked awesome screensaver or the itunes visualizations (even though itunes in on windows, they still look cooler on a mac)... if i end up with very little money i'll jsut get a powerbook g4... that was my rant, and just for the record it's 12:27am right now... so i don't know half of what i'm typing but i know i mean most of it ;)

final thoughts:

me = more or a mac lover than anything
me = not going to buy longhorn ever if possible
me = wants a g5 *drools*

circle get's the square! goodnight everybody!

[ethernet76]

Also, from what I've heard, Long horn is meant to run on 2006 technology they expect to have. That's assume Moore's law holds up and intel can deliever.

However, no matter what windows you get it's still a retarded friend that just trys to help because it doesn't know any better.

I still find it funny though you have people out there who run older version of windows because they run better. Will people still run XP or 98se because Longhorn blows?

And the day Windows doesn't crash is the day they get rid of the 30,000 different dlls needed to make it not crash. Dear god i hate mfc24.dll

Also from this windows site:

Overall, Windows Me is far more reliable than its predecessors (Windows 95 and Windows 98), though it can't, of course, approach the reliability of Windows 2000.

Is that right? Last time I checked ME was never better than 98se.

[ITR 81]

Because you'll need one when it crashes.

By the time Windows gets it's act together it we will have something similar to Sun's 3D desktop if not something better. If this OS never gets out of Alpha by the middle or so of next yr I bet we won't see longhorn until the end of 06' or sometime in 07'.

[sjcaguy]

yep...2001, not airplane. hope that was a joke.:rolleyes:

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by ethernet76
Also, from what I've heard, Long horn is meant to run on 2006 technology they expect to have. That's assume Moore's law holds up and intel can deliever.

Nope. They have a sliding scale requirement. So to run the basics of Longhorn you will need X Specs. To get a fair amount of eye candy you need Y Specs. To get the full blown meal you will need Z specs. Upon install of the OS it will set the what features are disabled and enabled by detecting your hardware config.

Its the Z specs that are expected to be through the roof with such things as subpixle displays and such. I don't really know all the tech going behind Longhorn but there are specs for Z that aren't going to be on the market until late 2004 if even then. As I’ve said before Apple has to focus on really making an even more impressive OS in the next 2 years. Apple is in a very nice position right now. MS isn’t going to be rolling out a new version of windows for another 2 years. This leave Apple to pick up a substantial market share if they play it right. I expect more security holes/viruses to creep up in the next 2 years and each time it makes headlines Apple will see more and more people look at Apple. But as of Fall of 2005 all bets are off. Longhorn is an unknown right now. Could be either a massive hit or a colossal flop. Some of the tech that I’ve heard rumored could make longhorn the most impressive OS Microsoft has released to date.
Apple CAN NOT sit around and gloat. I personally hope that Apple doesn’t release a new version of OS X next year. I would prefer to see a massive revamp to OS X or OS 11 to go head to head with Longhorn released 3-6 months prior to Longhorn. Take a nice bite out of that damn overgrown cow. :p :cool:

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by ITR 81
Because you'll need one when it crashes.



ENOUGH!!! 2K and XP have successfully taken care of the problem of crashing and for those instances where it still does crash go to google.com and search on
OS X Kernel Panic
See how many hits you get.

No OS is perfect be it Windows or Mac OS. If you were talking windows 9x then yes. Crashes abound. The NT kernel is a whole different matter.

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/images/smiles/frusty.gif

[toughboy]

looks fine.. not much different then my XP...

I'm sure they'll do better before they'll release it.. needs improvement though...

I'm not going to make any comparison between longhorn and OSX, I like both, but everyone knows which is better.. ;)

[mainstreetmark]

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
ENOUGH!!! 2K and XP have successfully taken care of the problem of crashing and for those instances where it still does crash go to google.com and search on
OS X Kernel Panic
See how many hits you get.


Enough yourself!

XP has crashed on me many times - maybe weekly. Hell, it even locked up. You can sit there and preach on the benefits of the NT kernel all you want, but it ain't crash proof.

[Bluefusion]

I'll pitch in with the same--either you're just lucky, or you've never used XP day to day. It still crashes, hangs, freezes and gives incomprehensible error messages... just less of them now.

XP is FAR from the revolution it was hyped up to be. It's Win2000, with all of Win2000's problems, and a new name. Little, if anything, else.

Longhorn may look like it's got some good features, but almost all of them are already in the Mac OS. Video cards for 2D acceleration? Check. A dynamic compositing engine? Check. An SQL filesystem that allows... get this... fast searches? Check (only three years early).

And by the time Longhorn actually DOES come out, we'll be even further ahead. We got nothing to worry about. Move along.

[David Lundgren]

It was frequent XP crashes that brought me back to the Mac in the first place. No operating system is ever going to be near perfect, but XP - at least on that HP laptop - was a constant problem.

Unfortunately for Apple, they've always had the best operating system at any given time and they never seem to be able to capitalize on it. When I had my last Macs, their market share was near 20% and now look at it.

Still love these things though, and that's something you never hear anyone on a PC say.

And if history is any guide at all, Longhorn is probably going to be a second half 2006 event anyhow. The only thing new here for Microsoft, I think, is the terrible press they're getting on virus/worm problems, but it seems that Linux, not Mac OS, is more and more the beneficiary of those stories, at least in the corporate world.

[mainstreetmark]

As the previous posters have stated, tho, 2006 gives MS a chance to do something truly innovative or revolutionary. They've got more resources than any computer company in the world, and what they come up with after 3 years and starting from scratch could very well be as much a milestone as the '84 Mac was.

Of course, if it's going to be Windows with a composite interface and a 'Sidebar', then it won't be world changing hardly at all, or as much as XP was. "Look how pretty..."

[Bluefusion]

And do we believe that Microsoft will sieze this opportunity for change and dramatic overhauling of their core product? Do we think that they'll take this upgrade to heart and produce a truly innovative OS?

Have they ever?

What's different now?

(Interested to hear your thoughts)...

Do we think Microsoft is going to change, generally, or is the general consensus here that this is "more of the same"? I stand with the latter, personally, but I'd be interested to hear other opinions...

[mainstreetmark]

Their track record indicated "more of the same", but I simply cannot believe that a company of that size of Microsoft has no passionate people, or people who are not in a position to really think of something truly great. Large organizations are often pretty beaurocratic, so maybe not...

[David Lundgren]

I know how easy it is to bash Microsoft and I also know it's a waste of time, but it appears true that they've never innovated anything. Embrace and extend, yes... work a problem as long as it takes to make it right, amazingly so, also yes, but I'd like anyone to point out any actual innovation that's come out of there that wasn't bought from another company.

It just gets so tiring listening to MS in the person of Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer, or others talking about "building great software" and "innovating", especially when they're under the gun of the Justice Dept or some other critical agency. It strikes me as a lot like Bill Clinton "getting back to the work of the people".

Sorry for the rant. I'd love to see MS come out with something stunning. They certainly do have the people and resources for it; I genuinely wonder why they never have broken any real new ground. You'd think Gates would love to do it.

[benixau]

bill gates is a loser. Really, he buys, crushes, or steals - gives it a new name - and calls it his idea and innovation.

apple and jobs are losers too. really, they make underpowered hardware with prices that make them prohibative for people to buy. They also dont offer upgrade pricing on their like their main competitor does.

no-one is perfect. If you ask me apple is worse. Yet i still own a mac.