Design help

[mac15]

Most designers get stuck for ideas (I'm no designer but I wanna be )
anyway could you the macrumors community lend me some ideas on what to draw and create. I have made stuff before check http://www.ambitiouslemon.com/ it has some crap I have made but it sucks ( well not sucks but its just patterns and stuff. I know some of the macrumors community are designers so lend some help for this stuck amatuer.
I think this is my longest ever thread :D
Anyway looking forward to hearing from you

[iGav]

mac15 check

www.thedesignersrepublic.com
www.tomato.co.uk
www.submethod.com
www.h73.com
www.wddg.com
www.zooworld.net/
www.linkdup.com

The above are really cool sites with some really influential designers and work on.....

Will have a think and post some more later on.....
:D

[Mr. Anderson]

I've done my share of design and I've found the best way to get going is to just do it. Practice sketching out ideas, practice playing with photo shop - actually a really good book for great instructional how to's in photoshop are the Photoshop Wow! books. If you can't find the latest version, don't worry. There are more than enough samples on techniques that aren't version dependent.

Some good tutorials and inspirational stuff

http://www.computerarts.co.uk

But tell us more about what it is you want to design? That might help

[krossfyter]

all the above suggestions are good.

remember infromal is more intersting than formal....if you use it right. try messing around with only 2 or 3 colors and be consistant with them....depends on what you are doing of course. try and stay simple first....to much action in a design tends to make your design look very busy and over saturated etc. etc. think about what your saying if you are saying anything.....concept is good...or theme whatever you want to call it.

check this.....

http://www.macaddict.com/magazine/extra/pros/


it helps to know how the pros are doing thier art....go through the ones dealing with print media and or illustration....its gives you some help in a certain area

[eyelikeart]

I get a lot of inspiration from going to Barnes & Noble and browsing through their graphic design books...

also, there's a magazine I love called Dynamic Graphics which offers tons of ideas & insight...they are on the web at: www.dgusa.com (http://www.dgusa.com)

by the way....what exactly are u trying to accomplish???

[quanta]

Designers don't just draw things... we solve problems. Everytime you find yourself frustrated by something that was designed by a troll in a cave, there's an opportunity to design something of your own.

One of the best ways to get your mind flowing in creative directions is to take things which are apparently dissimilar and try to find relationships between the two and combine them. This may sound a bit strange, but look at the guy who designed the beer can/party helmet that everyone's wearing to the game. Also, when it comes to sketching out your ideas, don't even give a moment's pause about whether your doodle is "artistic" or "pretty" or anything like that. Your sketch's main purpose is to remember an idea and to visualise it on paper before committing time and energy into a final version. Your sketches will get better as time goes on, but as dukestreet mentioned, just doing it will go infinitely further than sitting around thinking about it.

Another thing i would suggest is that you isolate concepts which you are interested in—patterns for example—then read up a little on theory about that concept. See what the masters have done with it, practice by imitating their work.

Good luck.

[iGav]

spot on krossfyter :D ;) :)

to mac15

I use to teach new media and design to people that might not have had any experience at all with either subject..... The best way I found, was to introduce the possibilities of design and technology, show them the variety of work that is out there, and make them aware that there is no right or wrong way of doing design!! (although some traditionilsts will argue that you need to have a throrough knowledge of Johan Gutenberg all the way through to modern day design techniques before you can even consider yourself a designer!:rolleyes:

But the most important skill of all, and this is one that cannot be taught.... is to use and trust your intuition........

If you want to get into design, or even just do your own design work then the obvious way is to do a design course, to gain an understanding of typography, layouts and semantics......... etc..... but then again.... who says you should have to go to college and study design...... I've never seen the rule book that says "you must!!"

One of the most influential designers of the last 20 maybe 30 years admits to having very little in the way of formal design education, and his work is very influential....... check him out, his name is David Carson......

www.davidcarson.net

I suppose a good way of starting is to set yourself a Creative Brief.... this may be;

Design a 2x page magazine spread, that reviews your favourite band, sports star, actor etc........ Take the existing copy from a magazine spread of the said person so you don't have to worry about content. Then give consideration to the style of the magazine..... in other words... how would you like it to look?? if it's for a industrial band like NIN, try and take the music as a starting point and try to convert it into visuals imagine how the music would look if it was a visual????

NINs music is ******** up, angular, angry..... make the design represent this... down and dirty..... or if its for a NASCAR driver, how could you convey this person through the design...? Speed, lack of fear, precision, clarity etc, the design might represent the madness of the driver, or the layout might be clean, structured and uncluttered because thats the state of mind of the driver whilst racing, or that his driving is very precise and smooth.......

By taking the subject matter and content as inspiration, the design should then flow from there, it should be an extension of written language and visual content.......

Although remember there are no rules..... so you might decide to take it on another tangent!!

CD sleeves are also a good place to start....... I have alot of CD's where the music is really good, but the sleeve doesn't represent the content and vice-versa..... Take the music as a starting point and imagine the sound as visuals.... and take it from there...... You may wish to look at designers such as Peter Saville, Malcolm Garrett, or Vaughan Oliver, all are famous for their music sleeve design, look at how the design works with the music..... believe me, you know when you've nailed it......

Enjoy Designing......;)

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by iGAV
spot on krossfyter :D ;) :)

although some traditionilsts will argue that you need to have a throrough knowledge of Johan Gutenberg all the way through to modern day design techniques before you can even consider yourself a designer!:rolleyes:




DAMN PURISTS!!!:D

[iGav]

:p :p :p :p


It's true though!!!:D :p :p

[eyelikeart]

Originally posted by iGAV

(although some traditionilsts will argue that you need to have a throrough knowledge of Johan Gutenberg all the way through to modern day design techniques before you can even consider yourself a designer!:rolleyes:


One of the most influential designers of the last 20 maybe 30 years admits to having very little in the way of formal design education, and his work is very influential....... check him out, his name is David Carson......

www.davidcarson.net


although Gutenberg can be credited for starting the foundation for what have today....I wouldn't go so far as to say he's a necessary element in the mind of a designer....I guarantee I know lots of incredible designers who couldn't give me too much information other than he invented printing using movable type...

now David Carson....he he he....I've got a set of his fonts on my work system....I hardly ever get to use them....but there's a bit of inspiration with him....he he he :p

[krossfyter]

yeah no kidding.... David Carson is brillant to say the least. I have one of his books... "The End of Print" and reading the opening pages just blow me away. What he says in it just took design to another level for me intellectualy and philosophically. WoW!

[iGav]

I know designers who'd probably think that Johan Gutenberg was the actor who played Mahoney in Police Academy.... :p

Actually, I'm been serious......:D

Carson is a blinding designer, although he owes alot to Dadaism!! his books are superb though!! Eye-candy with substance!!

His last book Fotografiks was very, very good, a juxtaposition of, well gee... this is a hard one!!:p Photographs and Graphic Design!!!

Buy it now!!!:D

[jvaska]

it is about solving problems...that what "designer's" do...it's not about being handy in photoshop necessarily...that's more of a hobby for many and not necessarily actual design...

but anybody can solve problems and be a designer...

the most important thing though...

remember to use your eyes...look closely at things...after much practice you will understand why some relationships work and why others don't...

and working with no color or just a couple colors to begin with is very good...

if you want to create something...how about trying to copy things you like (album covers, advertisements, packaging) as closely as possible...

and read this -> http://www.brucemaudesign.com/manifesto/manifesto.html

have fun! remember to squint and look sideways at things too...jv

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by jvaska
it is about solving problems...that what "designer's" do...it's not about being handy in photoshop necessarily...that's more of a hobby for many and not necessarily actual design...

Being handy in photoshop is just one of many skills available to the designer, not everyone is as good as the next, and everyone has their own style and favorite medium.

mac15 started the thread, but he never really let us know what he wanted to design. Now its grown into a larger thing. But the fact remains, that you design for a reason, whether as a hobby or for work, there has to be a driving force behind it.

The interrelationship between solid and void, color, contrast etc. all affect us at a level that isn't really apparent at first. How do you describe beauty? What is 'cool'? It means different things to different people.

Design is not like accounting, there are no numbers and spread sheets, rules.
Its Art. The ability to convey meaning and ideas without words.

Sure there is theory, but that only gets you so far. Find out what makes you happy, excited and stick to it.

[mac15]

woah you guys rock....... that was way more than helpful :D

I think I should of said photoshop ideas instead of design help because I don't have any problems to solve, I just wanna make some cool pictures for everybody .

It's true it good to have your own style, Nobody knows their own style other people pic it up for you.

Thanks to everyone

I going off to draw, design, listen to music, get inspired....... whatever

[iGav]

Heh heh.... I think we've spawned a monster!!!:p :p ;)

[MacKenzie999]

One more bit of important advice...

There are a lot of opinions presented here, some helpful, some ridiculous (I'm not looking to flame anyone so I will keep those particular opinions to myself).
Listen to what others have to say but do not automatically assume they are correct. Just because someone is a professional or a teacher does not mean they know what they are talking about (myself included). I have several interns and am amazed by a lot of the garbage they are being taught in school.

...and as far as actual practical advice goes, here's my suggestion: become a voraciuous student of typography. In my eyes what sets apart the true pros from the overwhelming majority of wannabes is a real, thorough understanding of how and why type works (or doesn't work).

Good luck!

[freedom]

Well… I agree with many and oppose too some…

My personal advice is art-history!
Browse through Gombrich´s or Jansons´
"the History of Art" brick-thick not-to-carry-around books!
When you arrive at early 20th century,
look closely at dada and all -isms.
It is inspiring to say the least!
Continue to the Bauhaus-period,
suck it in and grow as an "artist"/designer.
There you have it all:
Shape, colour, composition and even typography!

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by MacKenzie999
In my eyes what sets apart the true pros from the overwhelming majority of wannabes is a real, thorough understanding of how and why type works (or doesn't work).

Good point. I don't work with print media that much, more animation and illustration, so type isn't as important for me. That was one of earlier points, you need to figure out what it is you want to do. Once you figure that out, then you can focus on getting a better understanding of the concepts.

[iGav]

I don't do much print work either anymore.....

The rules of typography and legibilty have changed for screen or motion graphics work, the whole language of legibility is been questioned now, which is what makes new media and motion graphic work so amazing to work with......

Its kind of like what David Carson said though...... by not knowing what the accepted rules of design were..... he couldn't break them, as he simply wasn't aware of the rules....... and thus he nutured his own style, a result of his own creative process.....

I really like that approach to work....... Design is not elitist anymore, and with the advent of the desktop computer as the new designers tool of choice.... we are seeing some incredible work coming up now, from many without formal design training!!!

I'm really for that.... it's like PUNK Rock......... the whole DIY ethic.......:p

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by iGAV
it's like PUNK Rock......... the whole DIY ethic.......:p

And what better computer to do it all on than a Mac!:D

[MacKenzie999]

"I really like that approach to work....... Design is not elitist anymore, and with the advent of the desktop computer as the new designers tool of choice.... we are seeing some incredible work coming up now, from many without formal design training!!!"

I have to sort of disagree with this. For every David Carson out there, there are 10,000 other designer wannabes doing pathetic hack work. Granted, formal training is no guarantee that you'll be good either, but you're a lot more likely to do meaningful work if you have a solid understanding of what you are doing and why.

I'm all for diy, I lived through the whole early days of punk (and actually studied under people like Malcolm Garret and Neville Brody in London) but this great democratization of the tools of design has, in my opinion, created a hell of a lot more bad design than good. Owning a hammer does not make one a carpenter.

[eyelikeart]

MacKenzie999 made a good point when he said for every David Carson there are 10,000 wannabes floating around...

That's part of what's made me feel so jaded with what I do is having to deal with so many stupid people who want to "design" their own work. I would suggest for anyone who wants to get a firm grip on being anything resembling a graphic designer to work in a prepress environment as I do. Being a production artist will teach u things that u simply cannot learn in a classroom and give u valuable experience to take with u for the future when u are the one submitting work (not outputting it for print).

The advent of the personal computer (primarily PCs and Microsoft's horrible software that magically turns the average joe into a graphic artist....in most cases it's Word or Publisher...and even in some extreme cases Excel) has turned my workdays into a virtual living hell!! The simple fact that anyone can go out and buy a computer and start doing their own work has in many ways threatened us who actually have skills and know what we are doing. Do I sound bitter yet?! :rolleyes:

[eyelikeart]

I reached a maximum length and couldn't finish above...

anyway...this is the reason why I have decided to return to college with in a hopeful pursuit of another career...I don't want to become obsolete within the next 10 years. Plus, I want my work to have meaning...and I'm starting to see the desktop publishing/graphic design world to become oversaturated.

a note to anyone...I am not bashing (I hope u realize this!!) and Mac15 please do not take offense for my rants...I mean absolutely zero harm to anyone and I honestly applaud u for wanting to find your creative side...

a word of free advice...something that helped open my eyes (no pun intended...he he he) was when I started learning about photography. It's quite interesting to see the world through a photographic lens...it definitely helped me to let go of a lot of cr@p that was holding me back artistically... :p

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by eyelikeart
a word of free advice...something that helped open my eyes (no pun intended...he he he) was when I started learning about photography. It's quite interesting to see the world through a photographic lens...it definitely helped me to let go of a lot of cr@p that was holding me back artistically... :p

This is very true. Artistic vision, to be able to see things as an artist are key in understanding what you are doing. In all the art classes I've taken, its always been part of what's been taught us.

The BEST example of understanding how to 'see' as an artist can be found in the book 'Drawing On The Right Side Of The Brain', its cheap and for your money you can't beat it. Its in its 3rd or 4th edition too.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0874774241/qid=1018457067/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/102-6504956-5060121

[eyelikeart]

Originally posted by dukestreet
The BEST example of understanding how to 'see' as an artist can be found in the book 'Drawing On The Right Side Of The Brain', its cheap and for your money you can't beat it. Its in its 3rd or 4th edition too.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0874774241/qid=1018457067/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/102-6504956-5060121

excellent book!!! I got that one for my very first art class in college... :p

[iGav]

I can only but agree that for every 1 David Carson, there are 10,000 wannabes floating around........ If young designers are going to take anything from David Carson, it shouldn't be the style of the work, it should be how he's followed his own process, and believed in his intuition!!

But it's impossible to gauge what is good or bad design, design is subjective.... just because somebody doesn't like it, or it isn't typographically perfect.... does not make the work any less relevant or meaningful..... And the same with people with 8 years design school training does not necessarily make their work more meaningful than someone who has no formal design training and has only just started doing design.....

A computer is merely a tool for art, and if used with imagination, flare and intuition can produce some astounding design work....... I have seen examples of design work that were been produced with years of training and before the advent of the Macintosh, that were in my opinion, just as bad as the worst work been done now.....

The amount of design work that is currently being done, is only because computers have become more affordable, and the design packages more accessible..... and I for one am glad that the technology has become more accessible, and can allow people to produce what is in their eyes design...... and I do not feel threatened by this!! The same way as I can go and buy myself paint, a brush, canvas, paint a picture and call myself an artist...... is unlikely to worry Damian Hirst......

Its wild though that you studied under Malcolm Garrett, I used to work with him at AMX in London..... an absolute blinding chap..... and one of the most friendly designers I have ever met!!!

[MacKenzie999]

My point was not that computers make bad design; I'm just pointing out that just because David Carson manages to create work of substance without formal graphics training doesn't mean that that is the norm. I wouldn't advise people to skip art school just because Carson (and my other favorite untrained designer, Tom Bonauro) pulled it off successfully.

"But it's impossible to gauge what is good or bad design, design is subjective.... just because somebody doesn't like it, or it isn't typographically perfect.... does not make the work any less relevant or meaningful"

This argument applies more to painters than designers. I admit that what constitutes good or bad design is a grey area that varies from viewer to viewer, but I still feel one can make judgements about what is good and bad design. In design you are communicating a message, often not your own message, for an audience of varying sizes. You can make all sorts of arguments about vision and intuition and whatever else, but the bottom line is if the piece fails to communicate effectively to it's intended audience it is not succesful. If you are a painter then sure, whatever your vision is, you've achieved it and you only have yourself to please, but design has to live in the world beyond galleries and if it does not engage the viewer and communicate its intended message than I'm not afraid to make the judgement that it is a failed design.

[iGav]

Of course everyone can make there own mind up about what to them is good or bad design... hence the term 'design is subjective......'

But we should consider that not all design is about communicating a message, Alot of CD covers for instance, do not convey a message, sure the viewer can interpret several meanings.... but there are times when there simply isn't a message to be communicated, this design is not any less relevant or better/worse/failed than those with a target message or meaning to the design.

We should not confuse failed design with good or bad design...... they are very different. A design can fail, this does not necessarily make it bad...... there are many variables about what make up a design, and it really isn't as black and white as "if it does not engage the viewer and communicate its intended message, it is failed design" what about groups such as Tomato?? whom happen to like keeping their work open-ended enough to allow the viewer to make up their own mind?? this type of work engages people very differently to how other work might..... it doesn't mean it is bad design, nor does it mean it has failed because it might not have the initial impact of a more conventional design, or enagage as many people.

It may make the viewer or make the suggestion to the viewer to think in a different non-linear way, exploring the possibilities of different approaches, having to make the viewer decode on a different level to what they may be used to!! But if a design only succeeds in enaging only one person?? does this mean it's bad or failed?? or could it be that the one person who managed to decode it IS the only target audience for that piece of work!?

I would say it's successful........ But it wouldn't necessarily make it good!

But how do you measure if a design fails to engage the viewer and communicate its intended message??

When ultimately design is subjective??

[krossfyter]

design elitists argue for the objectivness of it and artists understand that most of it is subjective.

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by krossfyter
design elitists argue for the objectivness of it and artists understand that most of it is subjective.

The philosphical ideal surrounding art is that any thing can be considered art, so long as its put in context as 'art'.

I can walk down a beach, see a piece of wood being washed up on shore. It looks weathered and interesting, so I take it home, clean it up and put it on my desk. Voila! Art.

Some one else walking down the beach could have seen exactly the same thing, but instead thought that it would be perfect fire wood.

Different perspectives.

My point is that 'art' is only a part of 'design', in one sense art is a tool of design to help get the idea, meaning across. Art in and of itself doesn't need meaning.

jefhatfields next thread 'mac and philosophy.....'

[eyelikeart]

to me...art is about expression...

the way one sees something...the way one wants something to be...the way one understands an idea, a feeling...etc...etc...

design does rely on art to make it work...but as said above...design does not equate art completely...

man...I feel like I could go on and on in here today.... :cool:

[MacKenzie999]

"but there are times when there simply isn't a message to be communicated,"

How can a cd cover not have a message to communicate? It may not be literal, such as band/cd titles, but whatever is put on that cover usually at least attempts to serve to represent the content in some way, literal or abstract. The painting on the cover of Led Zeppelin IV communicates, not literally, but by conveying moods, textures and aesthetics representative of the band and music. This is a risky approach but when you are as big as Zeppelin you have huge audience awareness built in so you can be a bit more adventurous.

"what about groups such as Tomato?? whom happen to like keeping their work open-ended enough to allow the viewer to make up their own mind??"

I believe that falls under the category "engaging the viewer." In fact these are often more sophisticated solutions than simply band photo & logo because it makes the viewer think. "dubnobasewithmyhead" is a brilliant cd cover in that it evokes the feeling of the music without being a literal snapshot.

"...But if a design only succeeds in enaging only one person?? does this mean it's bad or failed?? or could it be that the one person who managed to decode it IS the only target audience for that piece of work!? "

Ok, let's say you are in a band and you hire me to do your cd jacket (and by extension all promotion graphics for said cd). Just one person is intrigued enough by the visuals to actually pick it up. Would you consider that design a success? (This does not take into account pre-existing band popularity; again, U2 can take more risks than a new band.) Maybe it's super cool-looking and sophisticated, but if it fails in it's purpose for exisiting than it is a bad design. If your target audience is one (and this is sometimes the case) and you reach that audience through your design, it's successful.

"When ultimately design is subjective??"

The purpose of design is to communicate. The subjective part is on what level/s that communication should take place. Sometimes all you need is handwritten text to advertise your yard sale. That is a cheap, effective solution for that problem. I'd call that good design.

[quanta]

i think that i have a slightly different perspective on what art is than most. i believe art to be a method for living, a way of dancing with the relationships which surround you. There is no inherent art in a painting or sculpture or poster or CD cover, rather the art lived in the focus and attention while it was created and continues to live whenever it is engaged by a perceiver. One could create a flow chart to diagram the emergent existence of art at primary and secondary levels, but that would be missing the point as to what art is intended to do. i liked iGav's point about designs which engage the perceiver and challenge them to think in new ways about something. And while this isn't always the most marketable strategy for design, it might be considered "high art of design."

i can also relate to eyelikeart's perspective on "print house blues." i too was once awash in a sea of Publisher documents and hack design, and fear that do-it-yourselfers will push the opportunities for passionate designers to a fringe position. But more likely it will just make it difficult for mediocre designers to occupy a "middle class" design niche. Unfortunate for them, but perhaps they will find a line of work more suitable to their true talents.

The computer is a wonderful tool for increasing the efficiency and accuracy of the translation of an idea into reality, but it is no substitute for the vision and creativity of its controller. i guess if you got it, you got it.

As far as design schooling:

i'm at a school with a great many instructors whose skill and reputations are very strong. i'm glad to be in this environment where i can learn from people sho have already "been there and done that." It saves me the headache of trial and error, but as far as being brainwashed by a cult of design dos and don'ts, that is a matter of personality. i find the most success when i obey my intuition. Breaking rules is part of escaping the dullness of the everyday barrage of cookie cutter information. However, receiving input from others is also an important part of refining your work. It is a social relationship: no one knows you like you know yourself, but people seek out friends to share parts of themselves with and to attain feedback and advice from.

Everything is a relationship in dynamic balance. If you can dance within it, you will find the beauty which you seek.

[Choppaface]

www.styleboost.com

[eyelikeart]

that's exactly where my signature quote came from...

basically...just because u like your idea...doen't mean the client is...;)

[iGav]

first off...... Design is about communication....... agreed, but Design cannot not fail to communicate something......... it might not have an intentional or defined 'message'...... It can be left up to the viewer to make up their own mind about what it is saying, as opposed to some singular vernacular meaning.

Somebody might not get the intended message that a design is trying to convey, someone else might......... Is this design flawed because it only engages 50% of the audience?? Of course it isn't, we can presume that the other 50% simply are not the target audience.

The discussion with regards to music covers, I didn't say that all CD covers do not convey or communicate a message, the example you gave is a superb cover, but there are many dance artists for instance that release just a plain white cover, with their name set in Helvetica in Black. Some of these artists do not have cover artwork because they believe it's whats on the vinyl that matters, not the artwork...... of course people (mainly designers) will turn around and have or will attribute meaning to the cover when there isn't any.... there is nothing wrong with either releasing a plain white cover with no meaning, attributing meaning to the plain white cover, or releasing the most stunning piece of design ever........ variety... it is a wonderful thing!!

The cover of 'dubnobasswithmyheadman', whilst fantastic and can be interpreted as a visual reaction to the sound of the record, the actual style of the cover is taken from the book 'mmm... skyscraper i love you' a book concieved by Underworlds Karl hyde and Tomato's John Waricker, the book is a Typographic Journal of New York, it formed part of the creative process and development work of the album......... it really is a fantastic book, but it could just be possible that the book/cover design relates more to to the creative process and inspiration for the creation of the album, as opposed to been inspired by the sound of the music and concieved after the album was completed.

Not all music cover artwork tries to convey the style of the music, I personally would try to endeavour to make the design fit the sound of the CD as how I would interpret it, the same way as that in an earlier email, I suggested that if you were to do a magazine spread for a band, listen to the music, and read the content of the article before you start designing...... I believe that this is a good starting point, it may not be to everyones tastes, or people might not agree with me....... but that's the way I would approach it, the same as if I was a CD sleeve designer I would want to listen to the album first before I even ventured anyway near a mac......

With regards to if I was in a band, and hired you as a designer to do all the graphics, if one and only one person outside of the existing fanbase, bought the album, because they liked the cover, then yes I would deem that a success, but that ultimately is a personal opinion and relates to how you quantify success, whether it be in 10, 100's, 1000's, 10,000's etc.... if it reaches ONE person I would deem it successful, others might measure it in millions...... it's a personal opinion on what is successful and I don't think you can put numbers on that.

In relation to the above I wouldn't necessarily agree that covers are there to sell millions of copies or make or break records, for instance look at REM's 'New Adventures In Hi-Fi' I think a stunning sleeve design, it represents the albums content beautifully, the fact that the album was recorded on the road, whilst on the tour, the album both in sound and artwork captures the dislocation of touring beautifully, yet this album wasn't hugely successful when compared to Monster, or Out Of Time...... it doesn't mean that the design for this album failed because it didn't match the sales of the previous 3 albums..... there are other factors at work to why this album wasn't as successful. But in my eyes the design of the album was successful and worked with the album as a whole package.

Sometimes all you need is handwritten text to advertise your yard sale. That is a cheap, effective solution for that problem. I'd call that good design.

Depends doesn't it.......? I'd call it effective and economic design..... But only if they sold atleast one item..:p

My take on design school is that it's a good thing to a point, when I finished school, I went straight to college to study Graphic Design and New Media, then after I finished college I went to study Graphic Design and New Media at University, I personally am fascinated by design, and this includes all design whether it be product, architecture, automotive I simply am inspired by it all. I'm very glad that I studied design at an educational level for 5 years, and like quanta I was taught by some people with excellent reputations. I personally really like trial and error, and find that this is a very important part of my own creative process, I'm in the school of thought that it is better to try and fail than not try at all.......and I'd rather try and climb Mount Everest than listen to someone tell me what it was like to climb it.....

I consider myself very lucky to have formal design training behind me, and I personally do not think I'd be a good a designer as I am now without the lecturers and my fellow students who have questioned and pushed me, my work and my process, as opposed to if I didn't have had design training..... But I really believe that formal design education is only one route, and I would never dissuade someone from not doing a design course if they felt it was what was best for them, as it can be done and sometime's the most original work is done by people without formal design training or any idea of the 'pain in the arse' rulebook that some designers strictly adhere to!

I really agree with what quanta said about trusting your own intuition, but not ignoring what other people say or suggest...... that indeed is one of the great things with discussing or working with other designers/creatives, they suggest things that maybe you haven't considered, they open up other avenues and question what you are doing and why. It's good to realise that you don't/can't work in a creative vacuum.

I really like what everyone is saying here, and I think it's great that there are so many passionate people on this site, it makes for good intelligent discussions and it's refreshing for me to hear different opinions and experiences on what they believe is or constitues what design is!!! ;)

Respect.

Gavin

[cb911]

don't just do everything on the computer. take the time to sketch layouts and stuff. theres heaps of great websites out there, just keep looking and something will inspire you. and always keep the layout consistent, unless it is deliberate. nothing annoys me more than an inconsistent site.

[MacKenzie999]

"[QUOTE]Originally posted by iGAV
[B]first off...... Design is about communication....... agreed, but Design cannot not fail to communicate something......... it might not have an intentional or defined 'message'...... It can be left up to the viewer to make up their own mind about what it is saying, as opposed to some singular vernacular meaning.

Somebody might not get the intended message that a design is trying to convey, someone else might......... Is this design flawed because it only engages 50% of the audience?? Of course it isn't, we can presume that the other 50% simply are not the target audience."

Hmm...I don't believe I was disputing this but maybe I'm reading it wrong. Moving along...

"...but there are many dance artists for instance that release just a plain white cover, with their name set in Helvetica in Black. Some of these artists do not have cover artwork because they believe it's whats on the vinyl that matters, not the artwork...... of course people (mainly designers) will turn around and have or will attribute meaning to the cover when there isn't any.... "

You are kind of contradicting yourself here...you say your example has no meaning and you then go on to explain some meaning. Design exists outside the context of its creators, you have to look at the bigger picture for meaning. The message can be far more complex than simply being a signifier for a typical genre (although there is value and meaning even in that). The minimal graphic approach you describe could say something about the label's attitude towards promoting the band, the band's attention to detail or concern for visual aesthetics, there are many potential meanings, and just because they may not have been intentional does not mean they are not valid. Also, there's a whole nation of Swiss folk who would probably get into fistfights over the meaning of the graphics you describe. Very orderly fistfights. And in case this horse isn't dead yet, let's look at Tomato again. Add a small blue dot to your minimal description and you have Underworld's final studio release, "Beaucoup Fish."

And since we are on Tomato again...

"...and can be interpreted as a visual reaction to the sound of the record, the actual style of the cover is taken from the book 'mmm... skyscraper i love you' a book concieved by Underworlds Karl hyde and Tomato's John Waricker, the book is a Typographic Journal of New York, it formed part of the creative process and development work of the album......... it really is a fantastic book, but it could just be possible that the book/cover design relates more to to the creative process and inspiration for the creation of the album, as opposed to been inspired by the sound of the music and concieved after the album was completed."

I could be wrong (it's been quite a while since I was heavy into Tomato) but it is my understanding that they were all simultaneously inspired, that the main product of their NYC visit was a film to which the book and then the cd were derivative (in very individual ways). I'm not sure what you are arguing against here. If the cd artwork reflects the creative process as you describe, is that not communicating something, is that not meaning? Maybe I'm making the wrong argument here.

"I would want to listen to the album first before I even ventured anyway near a mac...."

Good general advice, no argument there.

With regards to if I was in a band, and hired you as a designer to do all the graphics, if one and only one person outside of the existing fanbase, bought the album, because they liked the cover, then yes I would deem that a success, but that ultimately is a personal opinion and relates to how you quantify success, whether it be in 10, 100's, 1000's, 10,000's etc.... if it reaches ONE person I would deem it successful, others might measure it in millions...... it's a personal opinion on what is successful and I don't think you can put numbers on that.

If I were a professional musician, and wanted to remain a professional musician, I would be dissatisfied with sales of 1. Maybe having a day job isn't such a bad thing, but I'd rather concentrate my energies on music than on some crappy day job because no one was buying my music.

"In relation to the above I wouldn't necessarily agree that covers are there to sell millions of copies or make or break records, for instance look at REM's 'New Adventures In Hi-Fi' I think a stunning sleeve design, it represents the albums content beautifully, the fact that the album was recorded on the road, whilst on the tour, the album both in sound and artwork captures the dislocation of touring beautifully, yet this album wasn't hugely successful when compared to Monster, or Out Of Time...... it doesn't mean that the design for this album failed because it didn't match the sales of the previous 3 albums..... there are other factors at work to why this album wasn't as successful. But in my eyes the design of the album was successful and worked with the album as a whole package."

There are millions of bands that would kill to sell like REM's failures. It's difficult but necessary to exclude pre-existing popularity if we considering things from a purely graphic approach. REM could issue a blank cd in no sleeve at all (and I know that can be argued as a graphic approach) and people would buy it simply because it is REM, they have promotion and word of mouth.

I'm not saying, or maybe I am but not intending to say, that the ONLY function of cd jackets is to move product, but in a capitalist society where I must move product to continue doing what I love that is absolutely a major consideration. Once I have achieved the status of a band like REM I can indulge my design whims without risking my career but I really would care about selling more than one cd.

Wish I could babble more but I'm late for work. You've taken the time to express a lot more stuff I'd like to reply to, maybe I'll have time later today. I'm sure you're all be waiting with baited breath...

[

[iGav]

Woah..... that's a reply and a half...... I like it......;)

I didn't mean to sound like I was contradicting myself..... :rolleyes: ooops!!:p I'll try and simplify what I meant...... (but'll probably end up in 1000 words!!:p

Not all, but some dance records, regardless of labels will just put a plain white sleeve out, Probably because they are quite cheap to buy in bulk... I don't know, and then print the name of the artist and song on it (with a ink stamp). that is all. I know some musicians who do this, as they don't give much for the design (which is a shame), purely because they have no interest in a visual look for their band or there music. So when they put out there record, there was on their part no consideration to the design aspect of the sleeve. Hence this sleeve was intended to have no meaning from the music artist that created it.

However, designers as you know, will discuss these types of things, and in their esteemed wisdom, will maybe try and add meaning, try to explain why they used a white cover, what it means in relation to the music etc. When infact it wasn't intended by the artist/designer/whatever to have any of the meanings attributed to it when he bought the white discount record sleeves and rubber stamp!!

I must have misunderstood your post regarding 'dubnobasswithmyheadman' I wasn't arguing anything with this post, I wasn't sure whether you were aware of the whole creative project around 'dubnobass' as very few people seem to be aware that it is more than just an album, and that there was a film and book aswell. What I was saying is that it's quite a rare example of sleeve design, where by the actually look of the album evolved with the production of the record as opposed to being an after-thought at the end of the project like alot of cover designs are.

With regards to the designer/musician debate, the sale of one would be buying speculatively, so this person would be an extra sale on top of your existing fan base. If you are a new musician, then you'll need alot more that just good design to sell records, with music it is the music that counts (Obviously) the design I feel is secondary, no less important (I would say that been a designer though wouldn't I!!:p ) Again though I would say it's how you quanitfy success.... that 1 person could easily be 10, could be 10,000 who knows....

Alot of people, particularly the general public do not buy records on what the design looks like, but because they like the record... the design to them is transparant..... of course there are exceptions, I do make a habit of going out and buying maybe 5 CDs a month by artists I've never heard of in the off chance of being introduced to new music, I do buy albums because I like the cover design, and my rationale is that if I like the artwork, then I might just maybe like the music too, I've also bought CD's because I like the name of the band!! Suffice to say both approaches have let me down !!:p

Anyway, I have to go, work to do...... am abit of a busy bee today......

[quanta]

What is it about design that we, as designers, find so intriguing?

i think that, simply put, it gives us pause and we think to ourselves, "That's cool."

It comes from some place inside of us which recognizes what we've just encountered as being something which we had been seeking, something which we may not have even known we were searching for—but we recocgnize it. This is why people might buy that CD which looks so cool. This is why Kellog's Corn Flakes at first glance would seem to most to be tastier than the same product in a white box with Helvetica type saying: Baked Corn Cereal.

It is so wonderful that we have the opportunity for expressiveness... i was just imagining the sheer dullness of a record store all filled with white sleeves reading: Music. White posters on the wall saying: Buy Music. Even in our colorful, diverse world, if you peel all of the labels and stigma and artistic ennui, rationalization, and aspirations to "self-expression" away from CD sleeves, that is fundamentally what is going on: Buy Music.

i am a bit of a musician as well as a designer, and thinking about what my band should be called or an album title, or the CD artwork... well, i'm kind of thinking about why. Why would it need any of these things? My first answer is: because that's what you do. You make music, record it, put it in a case that can be catalogued and recognized, and then you either sell it or give it away. (or throw it away) It seems like such a hassle to think of the most brilliant concept to tie it all together in a way that's meaningful and relevant not only to the subject matter of the album, but also to the consumer, especially when it is the fleeting moment of marriage between performer and audience which is the real product here.

i'm sure that there is no right answer to most questions of substance. In fact i'm far more entertained by the dialogue than by the lecture, so i'll just slip out now, leaving behind this piece of conjecture....

[this piece of conjecure... now there's an album title!]

q