How hard can it be to make a crosswalk that works?

[Doctor Q]

Until a couple of years ago, city workers were adding painted crosswalks all around Los Angeles, especially near schools, to help pedestrians find their way safely across busy streets. Then, more recently, the city started removing these crosswalks. Reportedly, statistics showed that drivers' behavior didn't change when crosswalks were added, while pedestrians got a false sense of security, thereby increasing the risk rather than decreasing it.

Today I heard that a local school has a new "intelligent crosswalk", with hanging lights above it that flash when a pedestrian is sensed in the crosswalk. Maybe this will help, but it seems kind of expensive given how many thousands of crosswalks there are in the city.

Can we technical thinkers come up with a more practical compromise?

[medea]

Actually it's not that expensive,
“At a cost of $9,800, this new pedestrian crosswalk system is also more economical than the standard pedestrian crossing signals, which can cost up to $70,000 to install,”
So cost is definitely not an issue and they wouldn't be in place at all crosswalks just the busiest areas. To me this seems like the best idea, I personally can't think of anything better at the moment.

[bousozoku]

I've had a relatively inexpensive idea to keep all red light runners out of the intersection, including the crosswalks. Take the parking lot tire shredders and put them in the street, turned backwards, behind the crosswalk. When the light turns red, use the motor to bring them up. Anyone who decides to violate the red light doesn't get far. On the green light, they go down.

It's also good for the tire industry; although, certain brands don't need help in shredding. ;)

[scem0]

This reminds me of how I feel about microsoft....

How can a multibillion dollar conglomerate with so much power and money not be able to make stable, secure software. :rolleyes:

Oh well, no use to worry about it.

scem0

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by bousozoku
I've had a relatively inexpensive idea to keep all red light runners out of the intersection, including the crosswalks. Take the parking lot tire shredders and put them in the street, turned backwards, behind the crosswalk. When the light turns red, use the motor to bring them up. Anyone who decides to violate the red light doesn't get far. On the green light, they go down.

It's also good for the tire industry; although, certain brands don't need help in shredding. ;)

unfortunately it doesn't allow for two situations: emergency vehicles, both official and not (if the intersection is clear, and i'm bleeding to death, your damn right i'm running it), and mechanical/computer glitches that make a traffic light stop-- it's happened to me 2 or 3 times, the light just stays red for quite a long time, finally people just treat the intersection like a stop sign (most traffic lights go to flashing red lights if they have problems, but not all, sometimes a technician has to be dispatched)...

i wouldn't want my tires shredded in either of those situations...

pnw

[tazo]

Although there is a pretty good crosswalk system in seattle, it bothers me that the right turn lanes are often set up so that its a green light as I am crossing the street. Meaning I can get picked off just as I leave the curb!

This needs to change! Its just one more way that those political fatcats up in Washington have demonstarted their propensity for ignoring minors. Or atleast those who don't want to die.

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by bousozoku
Take the parking lot tire shredders and put them in the street, turned backwards, behind the crosswalk. When the light turns red, use the motor to bring them up. Anyone who decides to violate the red light doesn't get far. On the green light, they go down.


And with all the dumbasses out there, we'd have so many backups at intersections due to kaput cars with shredded tires....;)

D

[eyelikeart]

Yeah...tire spikes is a bad idea...period. Aside from the enormous amount of flattened tires we'd see, I imagine a ton more accidents will be caused from people trying to avoid them. :eek:

[MOFS]

Originally posted by Doctor Q
Until a couple of years ago, city workers were adding painted crosswalks all around Los Angeles, especially near schools, to help pedestrians find their way safely across busy streets. Then, more recently, the city started removing these crosswalks. Reportedly, statistics showed that drivers' behavior didn't change when crosswalks were added, while pedestrians got a false sense of security, thereby increasing the risk rather than decreasing it.

Today I heard that a local school has a new "intelligent crosswalk", with hanging lights above it that flash when a pedestrian is sensed in the crosswalk. Maybe this will help, but it seems kind of expensive given how many thousands of crosswalks there are in the city.

Can we technical thinkers come up with a more practical compromise?

Can I guess (being British) that a "crosswalk" is a place on the road with, say, hoizontal alternative black and white lines between two pavements (sidewalks)?

If so, these "intelligent crosswalks" have been in the UK for years! While we call them "zebra crossings", they're normally by traffic lights. You either have a "PUFFIN" crossing or a "PELICAN" crossing - both are acronyms. A "PUFFIN" crossing is where you have a button by the traffic lights and when you press it, a little while later the traffic lights go red and the "little green man" sign lights and it beeps, allowing you to cross safely! A "PELICAN" is the same except there's no buttons - only sensors (possibly motion sensors under the pavement -I don't know for sure).

Next you'll be telling me you don't have roundabouts!

[TEG]

How about, instead of shredders, use the movable curbs used in some parking lots to prevent running accross the entire lot? Using the same I deal, they are submerged so that their tops are level with the road, then when the light goes to red, they raise, therefore causing anyone who try's to run the light to get a major bump.

Or also, there can be beams that travel accross the intersection, from the left turn lane to the right turn lane. They would be setup like in a bowling alley to prevent traveling down the alley with the ball, except inseted of setting off a buzzer, it would activate a camera. And if the person is just too far forward, no prob, but If they run it, big fine.

TEG

[KCK]

Originally posted by eyelikeart
Yeah...tire spikes is a bad idea...period. Aside from the enormous amount of flattened tires we'd see, I imagine a ton more accidents will be caused from people trying to avoid them. :eek:

Don't forget all the lawsuits from people who run red lights at speed and then would get into an accident because their tires were shredded. remember this is America where if you get hurt in any way it has to be someone's fault and almost as good as winning the lottery

[eyelikeart]

Originally posted by KCK
Don't forget all the lawsuits from people who run red lights at speed and then would get into an accident because their tires were shredded. remember this is America where if you get hurt in any way it has to be someone's fault and almost as good as winning the lottery

exactly...anything to bring on a lawsuit...

hell...they'd probably try to sue the person if they actually hit someone even...and they'd find a way to...

2 words...Johnny Cochran... :rolleyes:

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by eyelikeart
exactly...anything to bring on a lawsuit...

hell...they'd probably try to sue the person if they actually hit someone even...and they'd find a way to...

2 words...Johnny Cochran... :rolleyes:

johnny cochran does a lot of good work.

he got bad press for the OJ thing (understandably).

but sorry, someone has to keep the companies in check. i'm not talking about ambulance chasers. i'm talking about attorneys working for people affected by negligent companies (manufacturing, pharmaceutical, etc)

[Doctor Q]

Originally posted by MOFS
Can I guess (being British) that a "crosswalk" is a place on the road with, say, hoizontal alternative black and white lines between two pavements (sidewalks)?Good guess.Next you'll be telling me you don't have roundabouts! Not many. And we don't have those intersections full of lions and tigers and funny clowns and bears riding bicycles, like the "circuses" in London! ;)

I should clarify my original question. Although safety at traffic-light intersections is also a concern (and sure, let's talk about that too), my question was really about mid-block crosswalks where there are no signals. For example, I've seen a few crosswalks that have small lights running along both sides. Maybe having lights like those that blink for 20 seconds after a button is pressed on either side would provide a cheap safety method. If this could be done for $1000 instead of $10,000, maybe we'd see a lot more of them.

[MOFS]

Originally posted by Doctor Q
I should clarify my original question. Although safety at traffic-light intersections is also a concern (and sure, let's talk about that too), my question was really about mid-block crosswalks where there are no signals. For example, I've seen a few crosswalks that have small lights running along both sides. Maybe having lights like those that blink for 20 seconds after a button is pressed on either side would provide a cheap safety method. If this could be done for $1000 instead of $10,000, maybe we'd see a lot more of them.

Yeh, I should have pointed this out as well. There are places (normally near schools where traffic lights would be unfeasable) where we have "crosswalks" with two lollipop-style lamps by them (with the bulb of the lollipop being a lamp) on each side of the road. Again, a sensor detects whether someone is there or not. Now, in theory there is no obligation for the person to stop (there aren't any traffic lights) but the Highway code states that drivers MUST slow down (pedestrians have right of way). These are really common here in the UK in built-up areas.

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by Doctor Q
Not many.

not many roundabouts...

clearly you haven't been to new jersey.

where you simply can't make a left turn without pulling to the right, and taking a "jughandle" as they're often called here

[eyelikeart]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
but sorry, someone has to keep the companies in check. i'm not talking about ambulance chasers. i'm talking about attorneys working for people affected by negligent companies (manufacturing, pharmaceutical, etc)

I agree with u...but it's still going to bring out the worst in the situation. Someone always steps up & makes a ridiculous claim! I'm honestly surprised we haven't seen another lawsuit from hot coffee spillage, even though the cups are labeled "HOT."

[wdlove]

Here in Boston pedestrians just cross the street anywhere that they please. People just have no patience. Then to make it even more dangerous for the pedestrian there is the bicycle messenger. My wife was hit by one!

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by eyelikeart
I agree with u...but it's still going to bring out the worst in the situation. Someone always steps up & makes a ridiculous claim! I'm honestly surprised we haven't seen another lawsuit from hot coffee spillage, even though the cups are labeled "HOT."

see, right there you just put your foot in your mouth. but i don't blame you. i blame mcdonalds and our media

what people don't know about that case (the mcdonalds hot coffee case) would surprise them, and probably change their mind quickly. so, i'll enlighten you.

mcdonalds was heating their coffee to temperatures WELL above the regulated temperatures... why? why else. money. the extra heat increased the aroma of coffee, and thus drew more people to buy it. they saw heavily increased profits as a result

this woman spilled the coffee, and it burned her entire crotch up. it damage the INSIDES of her. her uterus was nearly destroyed entirely. why? again, money.

so why give her millions and millions of dollars? well, it's simple. the judge awarded her the difference in profits that mcdonalds made in that one day, between what they used to make prior to the temperature increase, to what they made after... so maybe along the lines of a couple million dollars, tops. *however*, the reward was struck down on appeal, to a much lower amount (not sure what exactly). but if you're going to tell me that this woman is some type of ambulance chaser, than sorry, but that's full of it. and now, you know the whole story

[bousozoku]

Originally posted by eyelikeart
Yeah...tire spikes is a bad idea...period. Aside from the enormous amount of flattened tires we'd see, I imagine a ton more accidents will be caused from people trying to avoid them. :eek:

Either way, we get them off the street for a while.

After my incident on my bike with the car not stopping for a red light, I have little sympathy for red lights runners. This was especially bad because the man drove slowly down the street honking and cursing. He apparently thought it was legal to turn right on red without stopping. (They also make left turns on red around Orlandoh!)

[Daveman Deluxe]

It goes the other way too. I'm often a pedestrian and I'm often a driver. When I'm a pedestrian, I'm sick of seeing discourteous drivers (although most drivers are courteous to pedestrians).

When I'm a driver, I can't stand pedestrians that will walk both against the traffic light AND the pedestrian signal. One time a guy was waiting to cross at the crosswalk in front of me. Then when the light going the other way just turned yellow, he starts crossing the intersection. We had to wait for him to cross the street, even though we had a green light and he was crossing against the light. There's also an intersection near one of the dorms on campus that is usually busy with both students and automobiles. A lot of times, students will cross the street even though the signal is flashing "don't walk". It makes it very difficult for drivers to turn left or right when they have the light. If the first person needs to turn, he'll often be the only person to get through that cycle.

Here's a stupid law though: in my town, if anybody is waiting to cross the street, regardless of whether he is waiting at a protected or unprotected crosswalk, all traffic is required to stop to let him across. They actually conduct sting operations to catch drivers that don't do this. Not only is jaywalking legal, but it's protected. I think I might jump out into traffic just so I can sue the driver that hits me for not stopping. :rolleyes:

Pedestrians should cross at crosswalks and only when the pedestrian light says they can, just as automobile traffic must obey the traffic laws.

Edit: To clarify the traffic law, cars have to stop if somebody's trying to cross in the middle of the block as well.

[crazytom]

I saw a campus crosswalk the other day that had a countdown timer for when the light would change...that's something I'd never seen before.

We also have one of those 'motion sensitive' crosswalks and very prominent signs to yeild to pedestrians. I don't know how well it's working, but it sure slows traffic down between classes!

Or, the entire situation could be treated the way the Bush administration wants to take care of the 'forest fire' problem (cut down the trees). We can ban either traffic or pedestrians---whichever is more beneficial to big business (I'd guess that it'd be pedestrians, since they don't use much oil)!

[eyelikeart]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
see, right there you just put your foot in your mouth. but i don't blame you. i blame mcdonalds and our media


but if you're going to tell me that this woman is some type of ambulance chaser, than sorry, but that's full of it. and now, you know the whole story

Well u are right, I did not know the full story on it. U are also right in that our media does blow things way out of proportion, in order to sell a story. It's unfortunate when things such as that are misconstrued into something that engages negative emotion out of the public.

It doesn't curb my opinion of frivolous lawsuits though. Take the Star Wars Kid for example. I'm sure he's embarassed, but no one really knows what his homelife is like. For all we know, he could be a Cartman (Southpark) case. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to learn this kid's mother is an overbearing freak like that. :eek:

[jelloshotsrule]

yeah, i agree that people go too far, by all means.

but, much of the time the suits are

1. taken out of context
2. exaggerated
3. the full story is not told.


word.

knowing is half the battle. ;)

[eyelikeart]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
word.

knowing is half the battle. ;)

"G.I. Joooeeeeeeee....." :D

yeah...the media should be put at this crosswalks without warning signs or anything... ;)

[Doctor Q]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
not many roundabouts...

clearly you haven't been to new jersey.:) Actually, I used to live in New Jersey. I was referring to Los Angeles, where turning circles are a rare novelty.

Sounds like we should put up signs at each crosswalk saying "Pedestrians you hit will be encouraged to sue you!". That might get a driver's attention, speak to his/her primal instincts (getting where he/she is going but preserving his/her bank account), and be cheaper to install than the sensors and flashing lights.

[rainman::|:|]

i would just like to remind everyone that it IS legal to make left turns on red, if you're on a one-way, and you're turning on to a one-way. Too many idiots don't know that, and are surprised when they have a line of angry SUVs behind them...

pnw

[big]

good Urban plannign can solve this, as well as substainable neighborhoods and walkable communities.....

[rhpenguin]

Here in Ontario we have crosswalks that work. How hard is it to stop your car so someone can cross the road?!

[Daveman Deluxe]

Originally posted by big
good Urban plannign can solve this, as well as substainable neighborhoods and walkable communities.....

I agree. Less cul-de-sacs and more cross-streets is the best solution, as well as mixed-use zoning (i.e. retail on the ground floor, residential above it).

Widening roads is not the solution to traffic congestion. Designing road grids to disfavor arterial roads (i.e. busy, clogged roads) is the solution.

[shadowfax]

Originally posted by Daveman Deluxe
I agree. Less cul-de-sacs and more cross-streets is the best solution, as well as mixed-use zoning (i.e. retail on the ground floor, residential above it). i love places like that. in Prague, we had an italian restaurant under our hotel/apartment. the entire street was like that, too. little shops and things under each building, with each extending up 4+ stories with apartment flats and such... it was very convenient.

[eyelikeart]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
i would just like to remind everyone that it IS legal to make left turns on red, if you're on a one-way, and you're turning on to a one-way. Too many idiots don't know that, and are surprised when they have a line of angry SUVs behind them...

how true that is...I used to do exactly that (the turn, not piss off SUV owners) each day going to work... ;)

[big]

one place is Seaside Florida.. incredably beautiful! also, here in Huntsville, AL we are breaking ground on our own TND designed by DPZ from Miami... it will be a jewel once gas prices sky rocket.

your crossing the street issue is going to be a miniscule problem in the coming years, once everyone realizes we can no longer afford our way of life. we are going to have to down size our activities and live off the land, large cities are going to be in trouble, since they can not be self substaining....

but grid streets is the way to go, Cul-De-Sacs waste land that would be perfect for farming and do not make the streets safer. having wide streets is just asking drivers to go faster, where a 15' wide street is perfect to offer the following combination in design

5' sidewalk, 5' grass strip w/trees, on street parking 2 lanes of traffic, then on street parking, 5' grass strip w/trees & 5' sidewalk.

one thing I like about a tree lined streets, the covering branches creates an "outdoor room" again which slows drivers due to the visual perception and gives kids a place to play in the shade. I also love traffic calming items, like adding a "round about" in the center of an intersection, (not a true round about, but a 5' circle) this causes cars to actually slow down and say "what the hay? I'll go slow around this thing"

with tighter lots, one or two lots can easily be given to the neighborhood as parks. allow houses to have shorter set backs, add porches and voila, a close tight knit community that encourages persons to come out and sit on the porch.

change zoning to allow corner lots or the like to offer small groceries (could you imagine walking to the store for milk) etc etc etc... there are so many things we need to relearn....

if I was a cheer leader, it would have to be for New Urbanism

some good resources...

https://www.cnu.org/
http://www.planning.org/
http://www.seasidefl.com/
http://sherroddrawings.com/
http://kunstler.com/
http://www.pps.org/
http://asg-architects.com/
http://mparchitects.com/
http://www.newurbanism.org

[Durandal7]

I was eating lunch at a pizza place in Estes Park, CO a while back and was at an outdoor table. The table was right on the main street. Anyway, there was this three-way intersection getting almost no traffic and Estes Park had hired a police officer whose job was to run around the intersection yelling at jaywalkers. Everyone ignored him and there was a crowd of about 50 jaywalking at any time while this guy ran around waving his arms yelling at them in a state of panic. One of the funniest things I have ever seen.

[Daveman Deluxe]

Everything big said

Absolutely correct. I'd like to go a step further and say that I believe there will be a revolution in the United States within the next one hundred years. I think people (especially younger people) are pining for a simpler life. Don't even get me started on the state of our government, our economy, and our medical care system.

If you ask me, the pinnacle of U.S. history was just before the invasion of the Philippines. Ever since then, it's all gone downhill. Those in power need to remember this: "Just because we CAN kick arse doesn't mean we HAVE to."

[big]

thanks guys... but you should read the latest Kuntsler article.... not that I wave a flag for everything he says, but if you look at the last Oil Summit in Paris, it appears the world has already passed the production peak. For those who know, the next few years are going to be a sad state of affairs for the US.

I would say Europe is about to become the world's leading economy, especially when we realize our life in Cul-De-Sacs and driving to work everyday can never be maintained (unless we go to war with Saudi).

here are a few good Oil sites that should make national headlines...

http://www.oilcrisis.com/
http://www.iags.org/
http://www.globalpublicmedia.com/
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/