Another Day, Another Panther Build (7B59)

[MacRumors]

Mac Rumors Article Link (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/09/20030906061929.shtml)

Apple continues its aggressive seeding of Panther, with Mac OS X Client Build 7B59. Some known bugs still remain in these late builds -- including some filesystem issues.

Of interest, beyond Panther Client, Apple has also seeded Mac OS X 10.2.8 -- which replaces the previous 10.2.7 seeds. This latest version of Jaguar contains improved functionality and reliability for Audio, Bluetooth, Classic, Finder, Graphics, LDAP, Power Management, Safari, Firewire Devices, as well as security updates.

The current PowerMac G5s ship with a version of Mac OS X 10.2.7.

[alset]

Sweet! Moving right along. Let's hope to see it soon, cuz lack of Expose is killing me.

Dan

[edesignuk]

It's good to see the fast rate of development they are currently running @ with Panther, can't wait for the GM!

[arn]

Yeah, you guys are running out of things to say about new Panther builds - eh? :)

I think the most interesting -- yet insignificant thing -- is the jump to 10.2.8. Don't know why they did this... perhaps to make it easier on themselves for support issues.

arn

[DylanSchell]

I think it's fairly obvious why apple would go to 10.2.8, it would be incredibly confusing for new G5 owners to "upgrade" from 10.2.7 to another 10.2.7.

[Doraemon]

Does anyone know the Build number of 10.2.8?

Thanks! :)

[mvc]

They'd better hurry up with Panther or they are going to run out of digits for Jaguar. Currently 10.2.8, next 10.2.9? then what?? 10.2.9.1??? :p

[esheep2001]

Yet again I buy another brand spanking new machine and have to do an update to the OS straight away. Unless of course it takes so long to get my G5 out that I end up with 10.2.8 anyway. Then again, given how things are going I'm expecting my machine to come with 10.5 :-)

e.

[sickracer2015]

10.2.8 isn't a new update its replacing 10.2.7.. most likely since its including the latest security updates a G5 user can update to it along with others. 10.2.8 is build number 6R57.. but now i question of a G5 user can update to it.. since G5 computers ship with 10.2.7 but the build number is 6Sxx and as that looks to me the 10.2.7 is a lot newer than the current 10.2.8 build. maybe its not for G5 users

[gopher]

Originally posted by mvc
They'd better hurry up with Panther or they are going to run out of digits for Jaguar. Currently 10.2.8, next 10.2.9? then what?? 10.2.9.1??? :p

It will be like AOL Instant Messanger.

[QuiteSure]

I'd like to see a new poll:

Are you waiting to buy a new Mac to until Panther is installed?

I know I am! It will reduce the price of the computer by $129

[webplummer]

Why do they need to release a 10.2.8 update with Panther just around the corner? It seems they are putting an awful lot of development time into an update that will just be steamrolled by Panther in a few short months' time. And while rumor sites keep saying Panther is expected to ship by the end of the year, I have my fingers crossed that Steve will announce beginning of October shipping for it. Whatever.

[qazwsxedc30]

If you install panther does it clear your hard drive?

[skirtley]

Why is 10.2.7 not for every Jaguar User? Is it a good Idea to Split up End users with different Updates?

Apple Supports 2 OSs, 1 for Servers and One for Users.

Why not keep us all on the same playing field?

[Lord Bodak]

Hate to add more fuel to the Powerbook rumors, but couldn't 10.2.8 add support for the new Powerbooks?

[Rocketman]

Originally posted by webplummer
Why do they need to release a 10.2.8 update with Panther just around the corner? It seems they are putting an awful lot of development time into an update that will just be steamrolled by Panther in a few short months' time. And while rumor sites keep saying Panther is expected to ship by the end of the year, I have my fingers crossed that Steve will announce beginning of October shipping for it. Whatever.

OS development is a continuous process. The OS is actually Apple's primary product, the fact they give it away with every computer notwithstanding.

The change to entirely new chips, busses, memory, even general architecture is a major challenge for the OS writers. Given the sheer numbers of "standards" and plugs and cards Apple has supported over even the last 3-5 years, much less 20 it is actualy somewhat shocking.

At this point what they need is for the OS to be as bulletproof as they have been claiming for about 3 years now. All the changes they have been doing to the kernal and filesyatem risks ruining that claim. I just hope they are paying special attention to basic function reliability and accuracy first and adding bells and whistles last.

Top 5 priorities for Apple:
Windows iTunes
Deliver ALL G5 orders
Settle on a rock solid OS build for G5's
In-house clustering software and hardware
A portable appliance that phones, musics, records, pictures, and internets.
And bills to my CC iTunes downloads, ringer tone downloads,
internet service, and optional .mac access.

6. A 15" G5 0.65um dual 3.0 Ghz PowerBook :)

Rocketman

[airmac]

Originally posted by QuiteSure
I'd like to see a new poll:

Are you waiting to buy a new Mac to until Panther is installed?

I know I am! It will reduce the price of the computer by $129


Me too. I got an iBook 900 in january and it is a thing of beauty. I bought something cheap cause i'm waiting for a powerful powerbook with 10.3. My dream toy? 1600x1200 15'4 WHITE aluminum Powerbook G5 ;)

[cubist]

Originally posted by skirtley
Why is 10.2.7 not for every Jaguar User? Is it a good Idea to Split up End users with different Updates? ...

I second the motion. If 10.2.7 is released, it should be in software update fairly soon. And we know it's released, because folks have it on their G5's.

As for what comes after 10.2.9, it will be 10.2.10, of course.

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by arn
I think the most interesting -- yet insignificant thing -- is the jump to 10.2.8. Don't know why they did this...

Probably to avoid confusion... 10.2.7 will stay the G5 version of 10.2.6... Does that make sense?

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by airmac
Me too. I got an iBook 900 in january and it is a thing of beauty. I bought something cheap cause i'm waiting for a powerful powerbook with 10.3. My dream toy? 1600x1200 15'4 WHITE aluminum Powerbook G5 ;)
Not to be annoying, but 1600*1200 would be a 4:3 aspect screen, which is not the 15" and 17" aspect ratio. 1440*900 would be quite cool for the 15", with the 17" being bumped up to 1680*1050 or (let's be crazy) 1920*1200. Muahahahaha. (here we go I have lost it again while speaking about the (possibly) new PBs...).

Sorry about this off-topic, though.

[chabig]

They'd better hurry up with Panther or they are going to run out of digits for Jaguar. Currently 10.2.8, next 10.2.9? then what?? 10.2.9.1???

Who says version numbers are limited to single digits? Obviously the version after 10.2.9 would be 10.2.10

Chris

[rotorblade]

Why do they need to release a 10.2.8 update with Panther just around the corner? It seems they are putting an awful lot of development time into an update that will just be steamrolled by Panther in a few short months' time.

Considering many people will not be able to use Panther with their current computer(s), anything to clean up the last minute bugs/issues is a good thing. While I'm sure Apple would love for everyone to run out and buy a new computer tomorrow, that just isn't going to happen. I buy a new computer every 5 years, so I'm not do until 2004. Yet, I'll take anything to improve the OS until then. :-)

[airmac]

Originally posted by NicoMan
Not to be annoying, but 1600*1200 would be a 4:3 aspect screen, which is not the 15" and 17" aspect ratio. 1440*900 would be quite cool for the 15", with the 17" being bumped up to 1680*1050 or (let's be crazy) 1920*1200. Muahahahaha. (here we go I have lost it again while speaking about the (possibly) new PBs...).

Sorry about this off-topic, though.

haha you got me there. i guess i'm working on 1600x1200 for too long now :cool:

The thing is i never used wide screens, but 1440*900 would be cool.

[DHagan4755]

Could mean that PowerBooks are indeed around the corner, thus also meaning that 10.2.7 is done. Since 10.2.7 is done, and will be shipping on PowerBooks, iMacs, and PowerBook G5s, Apple is now prepping a bug release that further supports the new hardware and fixes bugs in existing apps.

[Freg3000]

Originally posted by rotorblade
Why do they need to release a 10.2.8 update with Panther just around the corner? It seems they are putting an awful lot of development time into an update that will just be steamrolled by Panther in a few short months' time.

Considering many people will not be able to use Panther with their current computer(s), anything to clean up the last minute bugs/issues is a good thing. While I'm sure Apple would love for everyone to run out and buy a new computer tomorrow, that just isn't going to happen. I buy a new computer every 5 years, so I'm not do until 2004. Yet, I'll take anything to improve the OS until then. :-)

If I am not mistaken, I think that Panther actually supports every computer than Jaguar did, less one. And for all of those old machines that are still supported, they run incredibly faster according to reports. I don't think that is the reason.

[Jeff Harrell]

Originally posted by mvc
They'd better hurry up with Panther or they are going to run out of digits for Jaguar. Currently 10.2.8, next 10.2.9? then what?? 10.2.9.1??? :p

10.2.10, of course. There's nothing unusual about that. SGI releases a new "dot" release of their operating system every quarter. They started with version 6.5, and now they're up to 6.5.21.

Of course, we'll almost certainly see 10.3 before 10.2.9, but you never know.

[Freg3000]

Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
10.2.10, of course. There's nothing unusual about that. SGI releases a new "dot" release of their operating system every quarter. They started with version 6.5, and now they're up to 6.5.21.

Of course, we'll almost certainly see 10.3 before 10.2.9, but you never know.

Of course it is possible to create a 10.2.x numbers after 10.2.9. But the point was that it would be confusing. I mean, from a math perspective, there is no difference between 10.2.1 and 10.2.10. Just another insignificant digit.

Anyway, I say just screw 10.2.8 and all the other 10.2.x release, just give me Panther! I know it's not that easy, but I want it now! :)

[coachingguy]

I'm checking software update daily for an OS update, I don't care if it's 10.2.7 or .8 or .9. The point (no pun intended) is that whoever let 10.2.6 go public should be shot. I upgraded my new iBook 900 combo to 10.2.6 and have had nothing but problems since. Sleep, power, stability, speed...Everything we love about our favorite Apple Os, is running like crap. Having read other boards, there are quite a few people who have had problems similar to mine with 10.2.6. I downgraded to 10.2.4 which has helped some of the problems, but I'm still terribly frustrated. Having been an apple user since OS 6.x, I was thrilled with the initial stability of OS X, I was waiting for the speed which came with Jaguar. The next upgrade need to repair my confidence in X. Thanks for allowing my rant.

[DGFan]

Originally posted by Freg3000
Of course it is possible to create a 10.2.x numbers after 10.2.9. But the point was that it would be confusing. I mean, from a math perspective, there is no difference between 10.2.1 and 10.2.10. Just another insignificant digit.

Anyway, I say just screw 10.2.8 and all the other 10.2.x release, just give me Panther! I know it's not that easy, but I want it now! :)

From a math perspective I am not familiar with numbers containing two decimal points.

:confused:

[Edot]

Originally posted by Freg3000
Of course it is possible to create a 10.2.x numbers after 10.2.9. But the point was that it would be confusing. I mean, from a math perspective, there is no difference between 10.2.1 and 10.2.10. Just another insignificant digit.

Anyway, I say just screw 10.2.8 and all the other 10.2.x release, just give me Panther! I know it's not that easy, but I want it now! :)

Actually, from a math perspective the zero in the number 10.2.10 IS significant. It is right of the decimal and right of a number. Don't we all love significant digits!!

[Edot]

Originally posted by DGFan
From a math perspective I am not familiar with numbers containing two decimal points.

:confused:

HAHA True! Kind of makes my previous post moot!:eek:

[CooCooCaChoo]

Originally posted by Rocketman
OS development is a continuous process. The OS is actually Apple's primary product, the fact they give it away with every computer notwithstanding.

The change to entirely new chips, busses, memory, even general architecture is a major challenge for the OS writers. Given the sheer numbers of "standards" and plugs and cards Apple has supported over even the last 3-5 years, much less 20 it is actualy somewhat shocking.

At this point what they need is for the OS to be as bulletproof as they have been claiming for about 3 years now. All the changes they have been doing to the kernal and filesyatem risks ruining that claim. I just hope they are paying special attention to basic function reliability and accuracy first and adding bells and whistles last.

Top 5 priorities for Apple:
Windows iTunes
Deliver ALL G5 orders
Settle on a rock solid OS build for G5's
In-house clustering software and hardware
A portable appliance that phones, musics, records, pictures, and internets.
And bills to my CC iTunes downloads, ringer tone downloads,
internet service, and optional .mac access.

6. A 15" G5 0.65um dual 3.0 Ghz PowerBook :)

Rocketman

Filesystem issues have always existed. Every service pack on Windows has an NTFS bug fix, what DOES need to be ensured is that the filesystem contains no bugs that could cause filesystem corruption. If it were ME I would conduct an beginning to end filesystem audit.

Regarding the 'tinkering" with the kernel, they NEED to be done so that more applications can be ported EASIER without the need to try and code around issues. poll() for example is one feature that has been added so that certain UNIX programs can be ported to MacOS X.

What I would like to see is an international iTunes and for iTunes to have a virtual "bank" so that one could put money into it rather than a CC being processed heaps of times.

[T'hain Esh Kelch]

Since no one pointed out...

Safari tweaks, does this mean Safari 1.1 is going to be released with 10.2.8?

That would be.. SWEEEET!!

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by coachingguy
I'm checking software update daily for an OS update, I don't care if it's 10.2.7 or .8 or .9. The point (no pun intended) is that whoever let 10.2.6 go public should be shot. I upgraded my new iBook 900 combo to 10.2.6 and have had nothing but problems since. Sleep, power, stability, speed...Everything we love about our favorite Apple Os, is running like crap. Having read other boards, there are quite a few people who have had problems similar to mine with 10.2.6. I downgraded to 10.2.4 which has helped some of the problems, but I'm still terribly frustrated. Having been an apple user since OS 6.x, I was thrilled with the initial stability of OS X, I was waiting for the speed which came with Jaguar. The next upgrade need to repair my confidence in X. Thanks for allowing my rant.
I think 10.2.7 G5 was needed quickly, with all the fuss about the latest PowerMac delays. Apple had to rush a recompiled version of the OS for the G5, hence the name 10.2.7. Can you imagine, Apple being unable to ship the G5s because of the lack of OS? Now I think we are all gonna be bumped up to 10.2.8 soon (G5s, G4s and G3s) to repair those annoying bugs, and then Panther will come along for those willing to shell the dosh.

[TylerL]

Apple's always made "one last release" that would run on hardware no longer supported by upcoming OS revisions.
68040 machines got 8.1
Pre-G3 PPC machines got 9.1
(OS 9 holdouts got 9.2.2)
OldWorld G3 users get 10.2.8

...also there are other reasons people would want to stick with an older major version for consistency's sake.
I help run a high school where we are just starting to deploy OS X to the masses. There's a bunch of little issues (Safari sucks when printing to HP LaserJets, etc) that we'd love to have fixed, but our Users would freak out with a major OS change so soon.
We can have all our computers upgrade themselves to 10.2.8 overnight when its released. The masses won't notice (other than fewer inconveniences), and we'll have less weird issues/bugs to deal with.

[guzhogi]

Anybody find it weird that Macs are using 3 generations of processors (G3, G4 & now G5)? I hope Motorola can get its groove on so that iBooks can be upgraded to G4 while the PowerBooks get upgraded to G5s so that Apple can get rid of all the G3 specific code and have all computers have Altivec. It would be cool if all Macs came w/ G5s, but then there'd be little difference between the iBook & PowerBook. As far as 10.2.7, as said before, I heard on MacOSRumors that Apple changed the name from 10.2.7 to 10.2.8 That's probably so people w/ G5s won't get confused. Just remember, "A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet." And after 10.2.9, it probably will be 10.2.10 I am also unaware of numbers w/ 2 decimal points, but 10.2.1 would not necsessarily be equal to 10.2.10 since when rounding, 10.2.1 could stand for 10.2.05 to 10.2.14999999… while 10.2.10 qould stand for 10.2.1049999999… or something. Math & significant figures are weird.

[IJ Reilly]

I've been waiting for some word about how Classic will be supported in Panther. I'd expect some changes from Jaguar, or at least I'm hoping for some. What do we hear?

[cubist]

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
I've been waiting for some word about how Classic will be supported in Panther. I'd expect some changes from Jaguar, or at least I'm hoping for some. What do we hear?

I recall hearing some time ago that the Classic apps would run and look like Aqua apps. However, nothing has been said lately. I also recall hearing some time ago that X11 apps would run and look like Aqua apps, and we've heard nothing from anyone about that either.

Maybe all the beta testers have been sworn to secrecy, or they just don't test things like that, because all that matters to them is whether Safari has brushed metal or not (sheesh).

[machem]

I think 10.2.8 would "wrap up" all issues before 10.3 --- In other words, if 10.3 didn't work for you (for whatever reason, maybe an older machine), 10.2.8 would the the last full revision before 10.3.

Actually, from a math perspective the zero in the number 10.2.10 IS significant. It is right of the decimal and right of a number. Don't we all love significant digits!!

Actually, the trailing zero is not not significant. But trying to apply standard significant figure rules to revision numbers is almost as pointless as discussing powerbook release rumors for eight months.

[Flynnstone]

Perhaps there is two versions of 10.2.7, on for the G5 and one for G4, G3. To release this would be confusing. Perhaps 10.2.8 merges the two together.

All these are details ! The good thing is that OS X is getting better!

[kwajo.com]

Originally posted by cubist
I recall hearing some time ago that the Classic apps would run and look like Aqua apps. However, nothing has been said lately. I also recall hearing some time ago that X11 apps would run and look like Aqua apps, and we've heard nothing from anyone about that either.

Maybe all the beta testers have been sworn to secrecy, or they just don't test things like that, because all that matters to them is whether Safari has brushed metal or not (sheesh).


i just started classic and launched 'SimpleText' (Ahhh, memories. . . ) to see if this was true. Result: no. they look the same as they always did. i can't tell you anything about performance because i never used it that much anyway. but classic launches really fast on my 17-inch powerbook, even without turning off extensions; a couple seconds, and it is done. sweet.



peace

[SYN]

the news blurb talks about FS issues, is that in the seed notes? If so, any details? Does that mean they're working on fixing the FS refresh issues that have plagued OSX for 4 revisions now?

[jbirk5000]

Originally posted by rotorblade
Considering many people will not be able to use Panther with their current computer(s)...

well, i was playing around with Panther 7B49 and i put it on an old G4/400 as well as an Indigo iBook 366... runs great on either machine... in fact, the crazy thing is that the iBook boots up to the desktop about 20-30 seconds faster than a gig-15inch-Powerbook G4 running 10.2.6.
I know that's just booting up and not running tons of apps, but it's still kind of cool.

[jabester10280]

I'm new to this is 10.2.8 safe for G4s?

[Catfish_Man]

Originally posted by jabester10280
I'm new to this is 10.2.8 safe for G4s?

It's a beta. It's technically not safe for anyone. Just wait for it to actually be released.

[coumerelli]

Originally posted by jbirk5000
well, i was playing around with Panther 7B49 and i put it on an old G4/400 as well as an Indigo iBook 366... runs great on either machine... in fact, the crazy thing is that the iBook boots up to the desktop about 20-30 seconds faster than a gig-15inch-Powerbook G4 running 10.2.6.
I know that's just booting up and not running tons of apps, but it's still kind of cool.

WOW! I wonder how it'll run on my G3 400 iMac? :confused: :p

(and I just added a gig of RAM!)
[edited for more info]

[Jeff Harrell]

Originally posted by coumerelli
WOW! I wonder how it'll run on my G3 400 iMac?

I've got 7B53 running on a 400 MHz iMac with 640 MB of RAM, and it runs very well. Better than Jaguar did.

[Bluefusion]

Well, 10.2.8 will certainly be the shortest-lived update of Apple history... but hopefully Panther really is right around the corner, and not three months or more away, as this 10.2.8 update seems to hint at (updates are almost ALWAYS 3 months apart @ Apple... makes me worried...)

Aside from that, they've messed up the numbering order now! Every OS update has had a sequentially increasing number of minor updates. The 10.0 series ended with 10.0.4, 10.1 ended with 10.1.5, and Jaguar was SUPPOSED to end with 10.2.6! Now they're two versions off... :P

(I predict Panther will now end at 10.3.9, which sounds REALLY weird, lol)

[Bluefusion]

Originally posted by jbirk5000
well, i was playing around with Panther 7B49 and i put it on an old G4/400 as well as an Indigo iBook 366... runs great on either machine... in fact, the crazy thing is that the iBook boots up to the desktop about 20-30 seconds faster than a gig-15inch-Powerbook G4 running 10.2.6.
I know that's just booting up and not running tons of apps, but it's still kind of cool.

My 800-MHz LCD iMac (768 MB) boots up faster in Panther than my friend's Dual GHz (512 MB) in Jaguar, and the overall system seems quite a bit snappier than his.

Panther rocks, no matter what system you put it on :)

[AidenShaw]

Originally posted by Bluefusion
boots up faster in Panther than ... in Jaguar

How is this measured?

Just to warn people that simple "subjective" impressions are important, but can be misleading.

For example, Windows XP "boots up" much faster than Windows 2000, when "boot up" is defined as "how long before the login window appears".

When you login, however, you find that "booting up" hasn't really completed, the disk is still clicking and things are finishing up in the background. The system can be a little slow until it all completes, and the system is really "booted".

All in all, the improvement is WinXP is significant -- but some of it is sleight of hand.... It's faster than Win2K - but not by as much as it would seem just by timing the login windows.

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by kwajo.com
i just started classic and launched 'SimpleText' (Ahhh, memories. . . ) to see if this was true. Result: no. they look the same as they always did. i can't tell you anything about performance because i never used it that much anyway. but classic launches really fast on my 17-inch powerbook, even without turning off extensions; a couple seconds, and it is done. sweet.

Well that's kind of disappointing. I was hoping for tighter integration between OSX and Classic. The way it's done now is a big wart on an otherwise unblemished frog. I had heard someone mention that in Panther, Classic apps were Quartz aware, so you don't get that nasty eraser effect. Can you report on that?

[ELYXR]

Originally posted by Lord Bodak
Hate to add more fuel to the Powerbook rumors, but couldn't 10.2.8 add support for the new Powerbooks?


Good point. We'll know Monday. :rolleyes:

[T'hain Esh Kelch]

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
I've been waiting for some word about how Classic will be supported in Panther. I'd expect some changes from Jaguar, or at least I'm hoping for some. What do we hear?
Now there's a double video buffer, which means that you wont get those artifacts onscreen that have to be redrawn my moving something in place. (Hope you get my meaning)

Originally posted by Flynnstone
Perhaps there is two versions of 10.2.7, on for the G5 and one for G4, G3. To release this would be confusing. Perhaps 10.2.8 merges the two together.
Oh no, 2x10.2.7 = Would be stupidest thing ever.
There is _one_ 10.2.7 and one 10.2.8.

[T'hain Esh Kelch]

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
Well that's kind of disappointing. I was hoping for tighter integration between OSX and Classic. The way it's done now is a big wart on an otherwise unblemished frog. I had heard someone mention that in Panther, Classic apps were Quartz aware, so you don't get that nasty eraser effect. Can you report on that?
Look at my last post. This has nothing to do with Quartz-awareness.

[bitfactory]

Originally posted by AidenShaw
How is this measured?

Just to warn people that simple "subjective" impressions are important, but can be misleading.

For example, Windows XP "boots up" much faster than Windows 2000, when "boot up" is defined as "how long before the login window appears".

When you login, however, you find that "booting up" hasn't really completed, the disk is still clicking and things are finishing up in the background. The system can be a little slow until it all completes, and the system is really "booted".

All in all, the improvement is WinXP is significant -- but some of it is sleight of hand.... It's faster than Win2K - but not by as much as it would seem just by timing the login windows.

let me give you the measurement.... on my D1GHz machine (with B49 build) - the boot panel (with the progress bar) is on the screen for all of 2 seconds before you are presented with the login panel. with Jaguar this number is more like 15 seconds for the boot panel. you'll see when you try it.

[Freg3000]

Originally posted by DGFan
From a math perspective I am not familiar with numbers containing two decimal points.

:confused:

Originally posted by Edot
Actually, from a math perspective the zero in the number 10.2.10 IS significant. It is right of the decimal and right of a number. Don't we all love significant digits!!

Of course there are no numbers with two decimal places. :) And of course, that trailing zero is significant. My mistake. if it were 1,028,000. The last 3 zeros would be insignificant. After a decimal place that ) is a sig fig. Thank you for the correction. :D

[Code101]

I'm hoping for the classic side of mac OS to just stop! Mac OS Classic is why I never used a Mac in the first place. Mac OS 8 & 9 is no better than Windows 98 and ME. Since the release of OS-X, I have loved the MAC. I wish they would just disable classic support in Panther all around. It's time to get out of the classic days for the Mac and time to get out of the DOS days for the PC! UNIX and NT is the way to go.

[Jeff Harrell]

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
Well that's kind of disappointing. I was hoping for tighter integration between OSX and Classic. The way it's done now is a big wart on an otherwise unblemished frog. I had heard someone mention that in Panther, Classic apps were Quartz aware, so you don't get that nasty eraser effect. Can you report on that?

The thing to remember is that Classic is effectively dead. The Classic feature of Mac OS X (TruBlueEnvironment, in other words) already works about as well as it ever will. Don't expect any future improvements to Classic specifically.

You may see future improvements that have nothing to do with Classic but that have neat side-effects related to Classic, but that's kinda neither here nor there.

Classic's dead and buried. Move on.

[fantomas1976]

Can any of you guys/girls running 10.3 tell me if Quicktime and or Itunes can produce variable bit rate AAC files? I know it is quassi VBR now (having specific bit rates)....but I was hoping that with Panther it went full VBR.. For example instead of 192 AAC you can get a 203 AAC (VBR) file.

Thanks!

[WM.]

Originally posted by Freg3000
If I am not mistaken, I think that Panther actually supports every computer than Jaguar did, less one.
Less two: beige G3 and Wallstreet PowerBook.

HTH
WM

[sososowhat]

Originally posted by bitfactory
let me give you the measurement.... on my D1GHz machine (with B49 build) - the boot panel (with the progress bar) is on the screen for all of 2 seconds before you are presented with the login panel. with Jaguar this number is more like 15 seconds for the boot panel. you'll see when you try it.

What matters to me is time from power-on to desktop ready. The 2-second (or 15 second) progress bar is just a portion of that. On my 1GHz, single processor, 1.75G RAM, with only one account/no password here's what I time:

seconds
0 Power on
5 Beep
20 Fan kicks on loud briefly
24 Apple image
34 Twirly hourglass thing spins
57 Progress bar comes on
36 Screen goes blue
66 Desktop background appears
70 System quiet, ready to roll

Questions:
1) What's going on in the first 34 seconds? Is this not OS related?
2) What's happening between second 35 & 57?
3) How is this likely to change under Panther
4) How does this compare with other users of similar - or dis-similar Macs?

edits (spelling & one more question)

[arn]

Originally posted by fantomas1976
Can any of you guys/girls running 10.3 tell me if Quicktime and or Itunes can produce variable bit rate AAC files? I know it is quassi VBR now (having specific bit rates)....but I was hoping that with Panther it went full VBR.. For example instead of 192 AAC you can get a 203 AAC (VBR) file.

Thanks!

From my understanding it's AAC is a VBR format. I guess you're asking for more specific target bitrate options?

You want to target 203 instead of 192?

arn

[FredAkbar]

To the person that asked about whether installing Panther erases your hard drive:

When you install a new version of OS X, you have 3 choices:

Clean Install: deletes your old OS-related folders like System, Users, Library (I think), etc. and installs new, fresh versions of them. You would lose your users and home folders, but nothing else that might be on your hard drive.

Archive & Install: takes your old System folder and puts it in a folder on your hard drive called "Previous Systems" (which you can delete later, though it's not easy for an inexperienced user). This choice will preserve your old users and home folders automatically, and you can just continue to use them without any problems (unless I'm mistaken).

Erase & Install: erases your hard drive or hard drive partition that you've selected, and installs a fresh copy of Panther (in this case) on it.

Hope that clears it up for everyone :)

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
The thing to remember is that Classic is effectively dead. The Classic feature of Mac OS X (TruBlueEnvironment, in other words) already works about as well as it ever will. Don't expect any future improvements to Classic specifically.

You may see future improvements that have nothing to do with Classic but that have neat side-effects related to Classic, but that's kinda neither here nor there.

Classic's dead and buried. Move on.

Sorry, no can do. I still run a few old applications, and for that I need Classic. It's not dead and buried anyway -- maybe you are thinking of OS9. Classic is very much is alive and kicking, and will need to remain so for some years to come.

The behavior of the Classic Environment can definitely be improved, and it looks like it will be in Panther, though not as much as I'd hoped or expected.

[TylerL]

Originally posted by sososowhat
Questions:
1) What's going on in the first 34 seconds? Is this not OS related?
2) What's happening between second 35 & 57?
3) How is this likely to change under Panther
4) How does this compare with other users of similar - or dis-similar Macs? 1: The first step is memory tests, OpenFirmware initialization, and the finding/execution of the default system file (BootX in this case). This happens regardless of what system is installed.

2: BootX starts up the kernel, which discovers the hardware and load drivers, as well as mounts the boot drive r/w and starts standard UNIX daemons.
Hold down Apple-V at startup to see all the cool stuff that goes on during that time.

3: Not much will change, actually. Same boot process. Just streamlined even more.

4: 400MHz iMacs using my 10.2.6 image go from "bong" to NetInfo-bound login screen in 67 seconds.
The faster the machine, the faster your logins, but certain peripherals can slow it down too.

[Sherman]

10.3 boots MUCH FASTER than Jaguar! I've timed it, on a 466Mhz iBook SE it boots 45 seconds faster for a couple of reasons, you can find this out by watching what it's doing through verbose mode (cmd+V on startup). First of all, it doesn't check the disk. It doesn't have to, added point of a Journaled file system. It gets through loading the kernel extensions about 4x faster than it used to, which is good.

It also works a lot faster in general. Hell, the scrolling no longer "lags" even.

I think Apple has finally gotten the optimization down. It took them a little while, but they finally got all the speed they could out of a machine, much like OS 9 did. OS 9 was so heavily optimized, it was nuts.

One last note: Where the hell are my advanced battery settings? Whatever happened to processor cycling? Reducing the amount of CPU time given to background apps? Grarrgh!

[jj2003]

Originally posted by kwajo.com
i just started classic and launched 'SimpleText' (Ahhh, memories. . . ) to see if this was true. Result: no. they look the same as they always did.


Now when you're at it, could you try to swing a window in front of SimpleText. And moving the SimpleText window behind the Dock. Does the graphics still get messed up? (like in Jaguar, mine atleast...)

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
Well that's kind of disappointing. I was hoping for tighter integration between OSX and Classic. The way it's done now is a big wart on an otherwise unblemished frog. I had heard someone mention that in Panther, Classic apps were Quartz aware, so you don't get that nasty eraser effect. Can you report on that?
Not that I want to be annoying or anything, but I would say that Classic must be ranking pretty low on the Panther priority list. And you know what? As the new OSX versions come out (I mean puma, jaguar, panther...), It's gonna get lower and lower... and lower on that priority list.
Just my guess...

[iLife]

Originally posted by Code101
I'm hoping for the classic side of mac OS to just stop! Mac OS Classic is why I never used a Mac in the first place. Mac OS 8 & 9 is no better than Windows 98 and ME. Since the release of OS-X, I have loved the MAC. I wish they would just disable classic support in Panther all around. It's time to get out of the classic days for the Mac and time to get out of the DOS days for the PC! UNIX and NT is the way to go.

I'm with you. I'd always hated the prior versions of the Mac OS, and even at work anytime i have to run classic my inner voice groans and stammers (to the point where i'll use fireworks more than photoshop because the PS they have will only run in classic)

My aim when i get my new G5 is to be able to run absolutely everything without having to downgrade to classic, and just forget classic as a remnent of the past.

[Code101]

Originally posted by NicoMan
And you know what? As the new OSX versions come out (I mean puma, jaguar, panther...), It's gonna get lower and lower... and lower on that priority list.
Just my guess...


One can hope so:) I hate classic! Classic is the downfall of Apple. OS-X is the only way to go!

[Code101]

Originally posted by iLife
I'm with you. I'd always hated the prior versions of the Mac OS, and even at work anytime i have to run classic my inner voice groans and stammers (to the point where i'll use fireworks more than photoshop because the PS they have will only run in classic)

My aim when i get my new G5 is to be able to run absolutely everything without having to downgrade to classic, and just forget classic as a remnent of the past.

Couldn't agree with you more:)

Bring on 10.3!!!

[WM.]

Originally posted by sososowhat
On my 1GHz, single processor, 1.75G RAM
To add to what TylerL said, the more RAM you have, the longer it takes to check.

I believe the only single-processor 1 GHz Power Mac is a FW800, ergo non-OS 9-bootable. But if I'm forgetting something here and your Mac can boot 9, you can hold down Command and Option (?) while you open the Memory control panel and turn off Startup Memory Tests.
seconds
0 Power on
5 Beep
20 Fan kicks on loud briefly
24 Apple image
34 Twirly hourglass thing spins
57 Progress bar comes on
36 Screen goes blue
Eh? Typo here?

FWIW
WM

[Rocketman]

I wonder if "rumours" such as tis Panther relelase are what Apple seeds to rumor sites to gain acceptance for future OS releases?

One would think Apple owed it to them to give them a bigger bone once in a while such as an exclusive, premiere, world renown release of some actual commercial product.

Get traffic up at rumor sites where bleeding edge types hang out and refer info to buyers daily.

Rocketman

[WM.]

Originally posted by FredAkbar
When you install a new version of OS X, you have 3 choices:

Clean Install: deletes your old OS-related folders like System, Users, Library (I think), etc. and installs new, fresh versions of them. You would lose your users and home folders, but nothing else that might be on your hard drive.

Archive & Install: takes your old System folder and puts it in a folder on your hard drive called "Previous Systems" (which you can delete later, though it's not easy for an inexperienced user). This choice will preserve your old users and home folders automatically, and you can just continue to use them without any problems (unless I'm mistaken).

Erase & Install: erases your hard drive or hard drive partition that you've selected, and installs a fresh copy of Panther (in this case) on it.
I don't think your Clean Install is one of the options. Rather, I believe the third option is to simply upgrade--nothing aside from the system files will be affected. (My understanding is that this isn't the case with the Panther seeds, but it is how the previous OS X upgrades [Puma, Jaguar] have gone IIRC.)

HTH
WM

[Rocketman]

Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
The thing to remember is that Classic is effectively dead. The Classic feature of Mac OS X (TruBlueEnvironment, in other words) already works about as well as it ever will. Don't expect any future improvements to Classic specifically.

You may see future improvements that have nothing to do with Classic but that have neat side-effects related to Classic, but that's kinda neither here nor there.

Classic's dead and buried. Move on.

Okay. fair enough for Apple Computer Inc.

But what about a third party like Dr Bott or Outpost.com or whoever.com?

THEY could make a series of products that bring legacy ports, peripherals, software to OSX from a variety of sources such as Apple II, NeXT, MacOS 4.2, Mac )S 6, Mac OS 7.2, Mac OS 8.6, Mac OS 9.2, Mac OS X10.3.

The G5 has several PCI-X slots, Firewaire and USB ports and whatever else might be needed including audio and video and display in and out.

Rocketman

[Rocketman]

Originally posted by Code101
One can hope so:) I hate classic! Classic is the downfall of Apple. OS-X is the only way to go!

I have a solution. An application that reads and determines or asks the proper destination program and format, and CHANGES THE FORMAT to suit. Most "problem files" are Apple specific modified or files Apple has full specs for or access to full specs for.

As such Apple should make a "Classic Importer" application or task. Support Systems 4-9.

Rocketman

[Art Vandelay]

Just to clarify why they changed it to 10.2.8...

There were two 10.2.7 releases. One for G5s (build 6Sxx) and one for non-G5s (build 6Rxx). You can't install 10.2.7 6Sxx on non-G5s and you can't install 10.2.7 6Rxx on G5s. The non-G5 version was simply renamed 10.2.8, probably to avoid confusion that two different 10.2.7s would have caused. 10.2.8 still will not run on G5s. G5s can only run their version of 10.2.7 and Panther. 10.2.8 will only be for non-G5 Macs.

[gopher]

Originally posted by Art Vandelay
Just to clarify why they changed it to 10.2.8...

There were two 10.2.7 releases. One for G5s (build 6Sxx) and one for non-G5s (build 6Rxx). You can't install 10.2.7 6Sxx on non-G5s and you can't install 10.2.7 6Rxx on G5s. The non-G5 version was simply renamed 10.2.8, probably to avoid confusion that two different 10.2.7s would have caused. 10.2.8 still will not run on G5s. G5s can only run their version of 10.2.7 and Panther. 10.2.8 will only be for non-G5 Macs.

Oh that is confusing. I sure hope the installer of each knows what it will and won't accept, and that people moving external hard drives to from between machines don't get surprised by a system that doesn't work with one or the other.

[merges]

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
Sorry, no can do. I still run a few old applications, and for that I need Classic. It's not dead and buried anyway -- maybe you are thinking of OS9. Classic is very much is alive and kicking, and will need to remain so for some years to come.

Really, this is not, and shouldn't be, Apple's problem. Developers should be modernizing their applications, and if they're not doing so, other developers should step in and grab the sales in that market.

Classic is to Mac OS X as old IBM mainframes running decades-old COBOL is to high-powered Sun machines running Oracle databases and other critical apps.

The technologies in Mac OS X are an order of magnitude better than the fundamental Classic technologies. There is no good reason not to Carbonize (and take advantage of other Mac OS X technologies in) an older application, or even to rewrite it in Cocoa: Sure it takes some time, but it's new revenue and really compelling new opportunities for users.

As for the few apps (like old games, or non-critical utilities) that won't ever be updated, I think that users should just deal with Classic the way it is. It works, for the most part very well, and it would be an awful waste of effort on Apple's part to re-engineer so much of that legacy code to make a small percentage of users using a small percentage of Mac applications happier.

[avus]

Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
The thing to remember is that Classic is effectively dead. The Classic feature of Mac OS X (TruBlueEnvironment, in other words) already works about as well as it ever will. Don't expect any future improvements to Classic specifically.

You may see future improvements that have nothing to do with Classic but that have neat side-effects related to Classic, but that's kinda neither here nor there.

Classic's dead and buried. Move on.

I think Apple should keep Classic the way it is now - it works very well for me, as I prefer using Illustrator 8 under Classic than Version 10 natively (too slow) or Version 8 under OS 9 (I just can't tolorate frequent freezes under OS 9 any longer - OS X really spoiled me). No quirks, I can Cut and Paste between two apps, etc. I don't know whether upcoming Version 11 will be good enough to abandon Classic entirely (if that's the case, great), but Classic is really a nice feature of OS X and should be included for now.

[Jeff Harrell]

Originally posted by merges
Classic is to Mac OS X as old IBM mainframes running decades-old COBOL is to high-powered Sun machines running Oracle databases and other critical apps.

You're on the right track with this analogy, I think, but you missed it slightly. If your G4 (or G5 or whatever) is an IBM mainframe, then Mac OS X is OS/390. Classic, on the other hand, is TPF running under VM. It's older than dirt, in relative terms, but it works, and some folks depend on it heavily. It's not going away, but don't expect any future development on it, either.

[MrMacMan]

10.2.8

Oh My!

Why no 'new' 10.2.7 ??

:confused:

And what the hell is gonna happen to 10.2.7 --> are they gonna skip the release all together?

It seems pretty stable...

:confused:

[Freg3000]

Originally posted by MrMacman

And what the hell is gonna happen to 10.2.7 --> are they gonna skip the release all together?

It seems pretty stable...


It seems that apple will skip the 10.2.7 release, and keep that solely for the G5. But, the 10.2.8 Apple will release is the same 10.2.7 you have under a different name.

So I think. ;)

[bitfactory]

Originally posted by sososowhat

seconds
0 Power on
5 Beep
20 Fan kicks on loud briefly
24 Apple image
34 Twirly hourglass thing spins
57 Progress bar comes on
36 Screen goes blue
66 Desktop background appears
70 System quiet, ready to roll


turned on automatic login and let it fly (7B49, Dual1GHz, 1GB ram)

0 Power on
1 Beep
6 Fan kicks in
10 Gray Apple Logo and circle spinning thingy
30 Apple Boot Panel
31 Progress Bar (Boot Panel)
32 Screen Blue
34 Desktop Picture
39 All desktop icons displayed - ready (with 2 external firewire drives mounted).

i also have Fontbook autoloading at startup.

the time to look at is the boot up panel... in Jaguar this was spent with items like "Initializing Network," "Starting Netinfo," etc...

now it happens so fast i wonder why its even part of the login process.

[jimsowden]

Does anyone have a select pass to the apple developer site and can gove me one of their extra apple seed keys?

[Wonder Boy]

Originally posted by FredAkbar
To the person that asked about whether installing Panther erases your hard drive:

When you install a new version of OS X, you have 3 choices:

Clean Install: deletes your old OS-related folders like System, Users, Library (I think), etc. and installs new, fresh versions of them. You would lose your users and home folders, but nothing else that might be on your hard drive.

Archive & Install: takes your old System folder and puts it in a folder on your hard drive called "Previous Systems" (which you can delete later, though it's not easy for an inexperienced user). This choice will preserve your old users and home folders automatically, and you can just continue to use them without any problems (unless I'm mistaken).

Erase & Install: erases your hard drive or hard drive partition that you've selected, and installs a fresh copy of Panther (in this case) on it.

Hope that clears it up for everyone :)

how would i go about reseting to zeros a la classic? nothing better than a nuked HD. its like starting your life over.

[inkswamp]

This is not too far off-topic. I have a question about Panther that I've asked around about and haven't yet gotten an answer. Anyone with the current build of Panther, if you would do this little test and tell me what happens, I would really appreciate it. This is an interface bug that I found in the Finder in column view that I submitted to Apple. They issued an urgent technote about it a week later and yet, despite several revisions to Jaguar since, the bug still persists.

Here it is.

In column view, hit Apple+shift+N to create a new folder. Name the folder "parent." Now, select "parent" (still in column view) and hit Apple+shift+N to create a subfolder in "parent." Name this new folder "child." Before finishing the naming of "child", hit Apple+delete as if you mean to move "child" to the trash. One would expect that child would be the "current" folder since you just created it and are currently naming it. But, if you watch, the Finder still has "parent" highlighted for whatever reason and summarily trashes the parent folder. I wiped out some very important files at work due to this bug several times (fortunately, there were backups) as it still happens to the parent folder even if you didn't just create it. That means, a folder full of very important stuff could be accidentally trashed without the user knowing. I would like to hear that Panther finally fixes this.

Thanks.

[Wonder Boy]

quote:
Originally posted by MrMacman

And what the hell is gonna happen to 10.2.7 --> are they gonna skip the release all together?

It seems pretty stable...



i used a 10.2.7 g5 at my local apple store a couple weeks ago. i was using soundtrack when the mouse would move by itself, and attempt to quit. after a few seconds, i could take control back. it did this several times until the possesed mouse took over, shut down soundtrack, then the computer turned right of. I tried restarting but it would freeze as soon as the desktop appeared. from my experience, 10.2.7 for the g5 is not stable at all.

[hayesk]

Originally posted by Wonder Boy
i used a 10.2.7 g5 at my local apple store a couple weeks ago. i was using soundtrack when the mouse would move by itself, and attempt to quit. after a few seconds, i could take control back. it did this several times until the possesed mouse took over, shut down soundtrack, then the computer turned right of. I tried restarting but it would freeze as soon as the desktop appeared. from my experience, 10.2.7 for the g5 is not stable at all.

Uhmm... was there Apple Remote Desktop or Timbuktu running on that machine? I know of know bug that would make the mouse move by itself.

Also, I've heard that there is a bug with Soundtrack and the G5s. Have you played with other apps?

[Wonder Boy]

Originally posted by hayesk
Uhmm... was there Apple Remote Desktop or Timbuktu running on that machine? I know of know bug that would make the mouse move by itself.

Also, I've heard that there is a bug with Soundtrack and the G5s. Have you played with other apps?

No, nothing was running. i wanted to see how well it ran as the only opened app.

No, i didn't try another apps, soundtrack is the only one i am really interested in.

[naz]

Originally posted by FredAkbar
To the person that asked about whether installing Panther erases your hard drive:

When you install a new version of OS X, you have 3 choices:

Clean Install: deletes your old OS-related folders like System, Users, Library (I think), etc. and installs new, fresh versions of them. You would lose your users and home folders, but nothing else that might be on your hard drive.

Archive & Install: takes your old System folder and puts it in a folder on your hard drive called "Previous Systems" (which you can delete later, though it's not easy for an inexperienced user). This choice will preserve your old users and home folders automatically, and you can just continue to use them without any problems (unless I'm mistaken).

Erase & Install: erases your hard drive or hard drive partition that you've selected, and installs a fresh copy of Panther (in this case) on it.

Hope that clears it up for everyone :)


I always forget what to do when a new OS comes out...

so with clean install does a software like Office stay on the hard drive or gets deleted?

[fantomas1976]

Originally posted by arn
From my understanding it's AAC is a VBR format. I guess you're asking for more specific target bitrate options?

You want to target 203 instead of 192?

arn

Well sort of... I am looking for AAC to act like VBR mp3 does. Where the bit rate you enter is the mininum bit rate that is encoded and if a song needs it can go higher for tougher to encode parts and lower for easier parts.. right now AAC, though not technically CBR or ABR (because it has a variable bit reservoir), behaves like it is. If i was to encode silence, under VBR mp3 I would get a "lower" bit rate where as in AAC I still get the same bit rate no matter the material I give it.. I heard that Apple was working on implementing true VBR AAC, but I was just hoping one of you could confirm if It was it Panther or not..

[MrMacMan]

Originally posted by Freg3000
It seems that apple will skip the 10.2.7 release, and keep that solely for the G5. But, the 10.2.8 Apple will release is the same 10.2.7 you have under a different name.

So I think. ;)

Cool!

Special Release!

:D

I'll keep it on my hard drive then.

'The OS That only the G5 Was suppose to have!'

:eek: :D

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by NicoMan
Not that I want to be annoying or anything, but I would say that Classic must be ranking pretty low on the Panther priority list. And you know what? As the new OSX versions come out (I mean puma, jaguar, panther...), It's gonna get lower and lower... and lower on that priority list.
Just my guess...

I guess I'm just going to have to disagree completely with just about everybody here. Classic is absolutely essential to the migration process. Probably better then half of the Mac owners I know are still stuck in OS9. If they're forced to dump their entire investment in Classic applications at once in order to complete an OSX buy-in, they might as well get a Windows box -- which is what a lot of them will do if faced with that choice. I already have a tough enough time convincing some long-time Mac owners that they won't have to immediately repurchase all of their software if they make the move to OSX. So let's not suggest making it true would constitute an improvement.

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by merges
As for the few apps (like old games, or non-critical utilities) that won't ever be updated, I think that users should just deal with Classic the way it is. It works, for the most part very well, and it would be an awful waste of effort on Apple's part to re-engineer so much of that legacy code to make a small percentage of users using a small percentage of Mac applications happier.

I'm not suggesting a major re-engineering effort. In working with people who are relatively new to the Mac, I find they react to the different OSX and Classic presentations as being jarring and confusing. Much of this is cosmetic and can be fixed, probably without a tremendous amount of effort. The number of people still using Classic applications is not small, and I'd suggest that these boards are not a good representative sample of what Mac owners are doing. If you want the OS9 holdouts to migrate, then Classic is essential, and better Classic looks and feels, the more likely they are to move.

[theipodgod16]

can you run panther on a g3?

[GreyArea]

Originally posted by theipodgod16
can you run panther on a g3?

Yes - on my imac DV400 with 320(ish)Mb Panther runs faster than Jag.

[FredAkbar]

Originally posted by naz
I always forget what to do when a new OS comes out...

so with clean install does a software like Office stay on the hard drive or gets deleted?
No, the only way something like Office would be deleted was if you did an "Erase and Install."

But, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, clean install is apparently not an option in Panther...or something like that. I would think they would keep it in there, though.

[edit: now that I think of it, it is possible for a program to stop functioning properly once you upgrade, like if it's something that installs files in your System or Library folders. But most programs don't do that, and I wouldn't think Office does, other than maybe some pref/data files that would just be created again when you ran Office after you installed Panther. Can anyone clear this up more? I'm not positive about this whole thing.]

But pretty much the bottom line is, don't worry about losing your programs. Just do an "Archive and Install" and everything will be fine. There's no real reason to reformat your partition/drive when you install Panther, is there?

[SeaFox]

Since people chime in questions about Panther in these build related threads, I have one relating to WindowsXP.

I run a WindowsXP machine in multiuser mode besides my Mac and I have an issue with it's handling of multiple users.

The prefs are set so to switch from one running account to another the user has to enter their password. The problem comes up when a user decides to shut the computer down and other users are logged on. Windows throws up a plain-vanilla alert box saying that if you turn the machine off other users may lose unsaved work.

Now the problem, since I can't log into the other accounts (not having their passwords) I can't switch over and save their documents. So I either have to 1) leave the machine on until they all return and save their work, or 2) Turn the machine off and risk people losing unsaved documents. There's no way to tell Windows to save the documents (either the changes or as new files) and Windows itself doesn't tell me if there are document changes to lose. The same alert comes up whether the other users are simply logged in or if they have heaps of Word files open and typed in, unsaved.

My question is, how does Panther handle multiple users working on one machine? Does it even have the option to require the password again when changing to another account? If so does it have a better way of dealing with possibly unsaved work?

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by FredAkbar
No, the only way something like Office would be deleted was if you did an "Erase and Install."

But, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread, clean install is apparently not an option in Panther...or something like that. I would think they would keep it in there, though.
Maybe the erase and install will be only available once Panther is finalized. But also when you install OSX off a CD, when the first screen comes on, you can go to the menu bar and launch the disk utility, where you can do all the reformating you want...

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
Classic is absolutely essential to the migration process. Probably better then half of the Mac owners I know are still stuck in OS9.
I agree that it is absolutely essential to the migration process. But I don't think that Apple are going to commit a lot of resources to improve the way Classic works or look. Sure it is still going to be around in Panther and the next few releases of OSX (whatever their name might be) and it's still going to be quite capable of running OS9 apps, but as time goes by Apple are going to put less and less importance in Classic. I know Apple computers have always had a very long life span, but how many more years till It's impossible to buy OS9 apps and most Mac owners will have upgraded to a OSX-with-Classic running machine? That's why, IMHO, I don't think changes to the way Classic works or looks are likely.

My £0.02.

[TylerL]

Originally posted by SeaFox
My question is, how does Panther handle multiple users working on one machine? Does it even have the option to require the password again when changing to another account? If so does it have a better way of dealing with possibly unsaved work?
Panther will bring up a window explaining that their are other users on with unsaved work, blah blah, and will require an administrator's password.

[airmac]

Originally posted by Code101
I'm hoping for the classic side of mac OS to just stop! Mac OS Classic is why I never used a Mac in the first place. Mac OS 8 & 9 is no better than Windows 98 and ME. Since the release of OS-X, I have loved the MAC. I wish they would just disable classic support in Panther all around. It's time to get out of the classic days for the Mac and time to get out of the DOS days for the PC! UNIX and NT is the way to go.

I guess you're not familiar with os 9 which didn't crash on me once in a year! Os 9 is still a lot snappier than os 10 and yes i'm aware of preemptive multi tasking and symmetric multiprocessing BUT if you're using one single application, like photoshop, than i suddenly find myself in a much more friendly environment... But hay didn't Steve sad we like options? But comparing os 9 with Windows 98 and ME is like comparing a monkey and a donkey.
Yeah, we came from a monkey :D

[Jeff Harrell]

Originally posted by inkswamp
One would expect that child would be the "current" folder since you just created it and are currently naming it.

One would? One shouldn't. The selected folder is the highlighted one. When you create a new folder in column view, it doesn't become selected until you finish giving it a name.

I wiped out some very important files at work due to this bug several times

Simply by moving them to the trash? That seems unlikely.

I would like to hear that Panther finally fixes this.

Panther doesn't "fix" it because it isn't a bug. It's correct behavior.

[Jeff Harrell]

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
Classic is absolutely essential to the migration process.

For some people, sure. But not for most. The vast majority of classic Mac applications have Mac OS X versions, or Mac OS X equivalents. There are, of course, some exceptions, but the thing about those is that they are exceptions.

If they're forced to dump their entire investment in Classic applications at once in order to complete an OSX buy-in, they might as well get a Windows box -- which is what a lot of them will do if faced with that choice.

That's fine. People switch from the Mac to Windows every day. Many of them are very happy after having done so. Many of them regret it, and switch back. It's a matter of personal choice.

If Apple executed a Chinese fire drill every time somebody said the magic words "I might as well get a Windows box," they'd be stuck constantly playing catch-up. That's not their business plan.

The thing about Mac OS X is this: it's better than the classic Mac OS, and it's better than Windows. This is true in large part because it is not "bug for bug" compatible with either.

There comes a point where you have to make a decision about how to allocate engineering resources. Should Apple continue to tweak and twiddle with technology that has been end-of-lifed, or should they spend that time and energy improving their core products instead?

The correct answer is "B".

Classic, as it exists now, is more than sufficient for the vast majority of Mac OS X users. Apple should not, and I predict will not, do much with it in the future.

[Jeff Harrell]

Originally posted by SeaFox
My question is, how does Panther handle multiple users working on one machine?

The same way, more or less. If an account has a password, you have to enter it with you switch to that user. If there's no password for that account, you're prompted the first time you log in as that user--at which point you leave the password box blank and just hit enter--but not after that.

If more than one user is logged in and you try to restart, the system prompts you for an admin username and password, along with a warning that unsaved changes in other environments will be lost.

There's really no other way to handle this.

[JGowan]

Originally posted by Jeff Harrell The thing to remember is that Classic is effectively dead.

Classic's dead and buried. Move on.CLASSIC is NOT dead.

OS 9 is Dead. We ALL saw the Keynote address (Big tombstone, Jobs saying OS9 is dead, etc.)

However, Classic will remain in the OS for quite a long, long time... OS11, OS12, OS13... a loooongg time. People have thousands of apps that they need to run, many of which will never be rewritten to run in the actual OS, Apple will have to give them a virtual world to live in. Period. And if, along the way, Apple is able to make improvements that makes Classic more like OS9.2.? then, I'm sure they will.

People happy with performance will continue to buy new computers. People needing to run thousands of SW aps and can't because of an OS change, will keep said people running old machines and NOT BUYING new machines, no matter how fast they are.

Apple can't afford to kill CLASSIC. 'Nuf said.

[chabig]

Simply by moving them to the trash? That seems unlikely.

I too lost some files this way. What you're forgetting (we all do) is that when you delete files on a server, they are gone. They don't go to the trash, but are deleted immediately.

Chris

[airmac]

Originally posted by JGowan
CLASSIC is NOT dead.

OS 9 is Dead. We ALL saw the Keynote address (Big tombstone, Jobs saying OS9 is dead, etc.)

However, Classic will remain in the OS for quite a long, long time... OS11, OS12, OS13... a loooongg time. People have thousands of apps that they need to run, many of which will never be rewritten to run in the actual OS, Apple will have to give them a virtual world to live in. Period. And if, along the way, Apple is able to make improvements that makes Classic more like OS9.2.? then, I'm sure they will.

People happy with performance will continue to buy new computers. People needing to run thousands of SW aps and can't because of an OS change, will keep said people running old machines and NOT BUYING new machines, no matter how fast they are.

Apple can't afford to kill CLASSIC. 'Nuf said.

Well said.

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by JGowan
CLASSIC is NOT dead.

OS 9 is Dead. We ALL saw the Keynote address (Big tombstone, Jobs saying OS9 is dead, etc.)

However, Classic will remain in the OS for quite a long, long time... OS11, OS12, OS13... a loooongg time. People have thousands of apps that they need to run, many of which will never be rewritten to run in the actual OS, Apple will have to give them a virtual world to live in. Period. And if, along the way, Apple is able to make improvements that makes Classic more like OS9.2.? then, I'm sure they will.

People happy with performance will continue to buy new computers. People needing to run thousands of SW aps and can't because of an OS change, will keep said people running old machines and NOT BUYING new machines, no matter how fast they are.

Apple can't afford to kill CLASSIC. 'Nuf said.

Quite right, and it would be smart for Apple to improve Classic's integration within OSX if it's going to be around for as long as most of us predict. It's about easing the transition and protecting nearly 20 years of legacy applications, and doing it in the way Apple is capable of doing (eg, not a kludgy). Maybe some of us can afford to be OSX snobs, but Apple can't.

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
Quite right, and it would be smart for Apple to improve Classic's integration within OSX if it's going to be around for as long as most of us predict.
True it is going to be around for a while, but I don't think it is in Apple's interest to work on improving Classic's integration within OSX, IMHO. I think that when people buy a new Mac (coming from a OS9 machine) and start running OSX and within Classic all their legacy apps, Apple will want those people to see the differences between Classic and (Carbon and Cocoa) OSX apps. You have to make people want to be part of OSX. That's why improving Classic looks to give it a Aqua look and feel will never happen. Just my opinion, though.

[airmac]

Originally posted by NicoMan
True it is going to be around for a while, but I don't think it is in Apple's interest to work on improving Classic's integration within OSX, IMHO. I think that when people buy a new Mac (coming from a OS9 machine) and start running OSX and within Classic all their legacy apps, Apple will want those people to see the differences between Classic and (Carbon and Cocoa) OSX apps. You have to make people want to be part of OSX. That's why improving Classic looks to give it a Aqua look and feel will never happen. Just my opinion, though.

Hm so why apple is still selling laptops and dekstops that boots into OS 9? In our country Slovenia (only 2 million people live there) 90% dtp studios still use os 9, surprised? Mainly cause of the font and character issues especially when old archive stuff is ported on OS X. Believe me, it is a slow and painful process. But we're a small market so who cares ha?!
And no, I don't want Classic to give a Aqua look and feel, I expect the same environment.
BTW, I still work in OS 9 and for now I don't have ANY need for OS 10.
Just my opinion too.

[VicMacs]

ive installed osx alone in some machines but classic does not work, my question is: can it work? i mean, is classic really an app or a gateway to a pre-installed os 9? i know it may seem like a silly question but ive seen the litte apple wait-watch instead of the rainbow spinning wheel in my osx-only machines and ive come to wonder...

mac lords, answer please...

I agree in that mac os 9 (what I grew up in, is not and will not be out of my life for a while... You can choose to have it or not but apple will not take away the option of haveing it.. it costs them practically nothing!

[merges]

Originally posted by IJ Reilly
I'm not suggesting a major re-engineering effort. In working with people who are relatively new to the Mac, I find they react to the different OSX and Classic presentations as being jarring and confusing. Much of this is cosmetic and can be fixed, probably without a tremendous amount of effort. The number of people still using Classic applications is not small, and I'd suggest that these boards are not a good representative sample of what Mac owners are doing. If you want the OS9 holdouts to migrate, then Classic is essential, and better Classic looks and feels, the more likely they are to move.

I see your point, but to be fair, what you describe is the antithesis of Classic. In fact, what you suggest would be a huge engineering effort, and is exactly what Apple specifically avoided when it implemented Classic.

The problem still lies with developers. If Classic were "upgraded" as you suggest (which would be a huge engineering effort), in many cases developers would likely see little incentive to bring their apps to Mac OS X as native. The effort here is to move *all* applications to native Mac OS X platforms and technologies, which will end up raising desktop computing to another level. That's what brings *new* customers, who, in the world of Mac OS X, are equally as or more important than people who are too afraid to switch from Mac OS 9 or earlier.

New customers buy new hardware, buy new apps, etc., and that's what Apple needs.

[merges]

Originally posted by VicMacs
ive installed osx alone in some machines but classic does not work, my question is: can it work? i mean, is classic really an app or a gateway to a pre-installed os 9? i know it may seem like a silly question but ive seen the litte apple wait-watch instead of the rainbow spinning wheel in my osx-only machines and ive come to wonder...

Essentially, Classic is a "program" that boots up an already-installed Mac OS 9 System Folder. Classic is kind of like VirtualPC in that way, except that it is better-integrated with Mac OS and the older apps don't have to run in a single window or anything; they behave pretty much like the way they used to.

So, you need to have Mac OS 9 installed in order to "run" Classic. And Classic is "run" automatically when you start up an old program.

Which brings up another important point; sure Classic may stick in the OS for a couple more years, but how long do you think Apple will be supporting Mac OS 9 installations? Or including them on every Mac sold? I wouldn't be at all susprised if at some point they just cut it off entirely, and I think that would be a wise move, actually.

[WM.]

Hey Jeff:

Any idea why that Restart button (in the screenshot) is so wide? Do you think it's just a bug, or could it be intentional?

TIA
WM

[Jeff Harrell]

Originally posted by WM.
Hey Jeff:

Any idea why that Restart button (in the screenshot) is so wide? Do you think it's just a bug, or could it be intentional?

TIA
WM

To be honest, I didn't even notice it until you pointed it out. I'm not sure what the deal is there.

In retrospect, I'm pretty sure I did a bad, bad thing by posting that screen shot. NDA and all that. I wasn't really thinking when I posted it. Oooooops.

[SeaFox]

Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
The same way, more or less. If an account has a password, you have to enter it with you switch to that user. If there's no password for that account, you're prompted the first time you log in as that user--at which point you leave the password box blank and just hit enter--but not after that.

So in the fast user switching of the demo of Panther at WWDC, the user accounts were all password-free? Does it still do the spinning cube effect if you have to enter a passoword to access the other account?

If more than one user is logged in and you try to restart, the system prompts you for an admin username and password, along with a warning that unsaved changes in other environments will be lost.

Hmmm, interesting. Since I'm the admin on the WinXP box I have never tried to shutdown from another user account. I wonder if it would even allow me to shutdown the machine.

There's really no other way to handle this.

If the MacOS supported hibernation it could freeze the other users' environments. The documents on disk would not be changed, but the changes would still be there on the working copies when the user logs in again. I doubt WIndows does this even though it has hibernation available.

[IJ Reilly]

Originally posted by merges
I see your point, but to be fair, what you describe is the antithesis of Classic. In fact, what you suggest would be a huge engineering effort, and is exactly what Apple specifically avoided when it implemented Classic.

The problem still lies with developers. If Classic were "upgraded" as you suggest (which would be a huge engineering effort), in many cases developers would likely see little incentive to bring their apps to Mac OS X as native. The effort here is to move *all* applications to native Mac OS X platforms and technologies, which will end up raising desktop computing to another level. That's what brings *new* customers, who, in the world of Mac OS X, are equally as or more important than people who are too afraid to switch from Mac OS 9 or earlier.

New customers buy new hardware, buy new apps, etc., and that's what Apple needs.

I don't understand why improving the behaviors of Classic would be such a "huge engineering effort." Apple has apparently already handled the display issue, which was a big one on my list (and I suspect, also one of the more difficult to solve). This also suggests that Apple is interested in improving the Classic user experience. I also don't get the objections to making the Classic Environment less obtrusive and clumsy, especially if it's destined to be around for a while. That's just so... un-Mac like.

Customers buying new hardware isn't really the solution to the need for Classic. I've moved up many times over the years, and I've never had any need or reason to leave my applications behind. Gradually the need for Classic will diminish, but we're not going to wake up one day and suddenly realize that it's a vestigial appendage.

[WM.]

Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
To be honest, I didn't even notice it until you pointed it out. I'm not sure what the deal is there.
Maybe Restart is the right width, but Cancel is narrow--look at the buttons when you go to Apple menu--->Restart... . They're both the same width (talking about Jaguar here). OTOH, if you look in the Print dialog, the Cancel button there is the same width as the one in your screenshot.

Aaagh! :)

WM

[WM.]

Originally posted by SeaFox
So in the fast user switching of the demo of Panther at WWDC, the user accounts were all password-free? Does it still do the spinning cube effect if you have to enter a passoword to access the other account?
Yes and yes, from what I understand. (I don't have Panther, but I've read about it a lot...)

HTH
WM

edit: Jeff's right. I don't specifically remember SJ typing in a password, but that was three months ago. :) And of course you'll only ever get the spinning cube if your machine supports QE.

[Jeff Harrell]

Originally posted by SeaFox
So in the fast user switching of the demo of Panther at WWDC, the user accounts were all password-free?

No, one of the accounts shown had a password.

Does it still do the spinning cube effect if you have to enter a passoword to access the other account?

Only on machines that support Quartz Extreme.

[inkswamp]

Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
One would? One shouldn't. The selected folder is the highlighted one. When you create a new folder in column view, it doesn't become selected until you finish giving it a name.

If you're currently naming a folder, it stands to reason that any keyboard action would apply to that folder. The user reasonably assumes that said folder is the "selected" folder. It has always worked that way before on the Mac. It works that way in icon and list view in both OS 9 and X. Why should column view behave differently?

Simply by moving them to the trash? That seems unlikely.

If I don't realize that it's been moved there because I rightly thought that the child folder was the one being trashed, not the parent folder, then when I empty the trash, it's gone. I lost several folders of stuff due to this bug and couldn't figure out what was going on until I noticed one of the folders sitting there once before I emptied the trash. Bear in mind that this was happening when I first started using OS X and was new to column view. I would notice this immediately now (especially since I've been bitten by it) as I'm more accustomed to how column view functions and its particular quirks.

Panther doesn't "fix" it because it isn't a bug. It's correct behavior.

Apple themselves beg to differ with you as they issued a technote not a week after I sent this to them indicating that this behavior was inadvertent and would be addressed at a later time. Your opinion is that it is correct behavior. You're entitled to think that way, however, Apple has stated that it was not supposed to function that way.

Anyway, thanks for not answering the question.

[inkswamp]

I'm already guessing that I'll be challenged on this. Here is the technote that Apple issued after I sent this problem to them.

Apple technote about column view problem. (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=107313)

Notice that they say "inadvertently" in the description of this problem and "Wrong Folder Moved to Trash" in the topic. This is not the intended behavior of column view.

Sorry to carry on like this but I don't take well to people implying that I'm lying. :mad:

[Bluefusion]

Originally posted by SeaFox
So in the fast user switching of the demo of Panther at WWDC, the user accounts were all password-free? Does it still do the spinning cube effect if you have to enter a passoword to access the other account?

You can make accounts password-free... if you have passwords (some accounts might have one, and some may not), a login window comes up on your screen, where you can type in the authentication... THEN it spins the cube.

I'm not sure if I remember this correctly, but does typing in an authentication from the standard startup login panel cause the cube to rotate to the user account from the bottom up? (Keynote's Cube effect, where the animation comes from, has a "bottom up" version) Cause it should, if it doesn't... that would look cool :)

[mvc]

Originally posted by inkswamp
If you're currently naming a folder, it stands to reason that any keyboard action would apply to that folder…

There are a numer of bugs like this which Panther HAS fixed. In list view in Jaguar, for instance, try creating a new child folder while higlighting an existing "open" folder, it appears above the parent folder instead of inside it. And whenever you create a folder in list view, it isn't highlighted for renaming, unlike previous behaviours in OS9 and the behaviour in other views in Jaguar. I reported both these bugs and apparently the last at least is corrected in Panther (don't know about the first).

My point is, oddball/inconsistent finder behaviour is still occurring, but Apple is fixing it slowly.

Of course, the real thing they should fix is that stupid change they made to command-shift-n rather than command-n for a new folder - how often do you want a new window rather than a new folder?

This annoys me daily. At least they could allow us to configure our own key commands like every other application under the sun.

[Edot]

I have used 7b53 and noticed that Image Capture seems to now support scanners and OCR. However, these features either are not implemented yet or my scanner is not supported or I have not installed the correct drivers. It is a popular Canon Scanner and when I launch Image capture it does recognize it as being turned on. There are prefs for scanning and Mysterious Scanning and OCR Services. What is the deal with this? Are these features implemented in 7b59 or not? This would be excellent because Jag lacks any scanning support, and you must purchase a program or use classic software to scan. I should probably be frustrated with the scanner manufacturer and not Apple. What is the deal with this? Anyone??:confused:

[FredAkbar]

In Jaguar, when there's something in the trash, and you use the Terminal to delete it, the trash Dock icon doesn't automatically update to show the now-empty trash.

Is this fixed in Panther?

[inkswamp]

Originally posted by mvc
And whenever you create a folder in list view, it isn't highlighted for renaming, unlike previous behaviours in OS9 and the behaviour in other views in Jaguar.

I'm pleased to hear that this particular issue has been addressed in Panther. Probably a lot of these subtle differences in behavior come from the fact that column-view was a NeXT-ism, if I understand correctly, and Apple's developers have probably labored mightily to hammer it into the expected Mac-like behavior. That certainly understandable, but any quirks like the one I cited previously that potentially destroys a user's work should be fixed without question.

Here's a weird one that I hope gets fixed in Panther. It's not destructive but it's damn annoying.

Open a window in list view. Shrink the window down so that the "name" header (the blue area of the column headers) extends past the right edge of the window. Now, click on one item's title as if you mean to rename it. As soon as the title becomes active for editing, the entire window contents suddenly shifts over to the left. Grrrrr... This doesn't happen if the name header doesn't extend past the window's right edge. I like to keep my list view windows thin and this bug drives me nuts.

[mvc]

Originally posted by inkswamp
Here's a weird one that I hope gets fixed in Panther. It's not destructive but it's damn annoying…

Here's another - its so general most people wouldn't see it as a bug, but its an A-Grade Finder usability blooper.

Try saving a NEW document from within an application into a folder which is open on your desktop as a window in list view, then switch to that open window, and double-click something else to open that…
…Watch the finder only THEN update the window, belatedly rearrange the window contents BEFORE your doubleclick is registered and voila, you find yourself opening the WRONG item - especially annoying if the new item is a 300mb photoshop file when you clicked a word doc? Last modified view shows it up the best.

What is jaguar doing with all my unused processor cycles - why can't it refresh a visible window before it is made the focus :mad:

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by FredAkbar
In Jaguar, when there's something in the trash, and you use the Terminal to delete it, the trash Dock icon doesn't automatically update to show the now-empty trash.

Is this fixed in Panther?
Just being curious. Why delete from the terminal? If it is because you can't delete the content otherwise, I guess you are already having a trash problem anyway. You could then just drag a random file into the trash and then out of it to refresh it? But you are right, it is a bug.

[inkswamp]

Originally posted by mvc
Watch the finder only THEN update the window, belatedly rearrange the window contents BEFORE your doubleclick is registered and voila, you find yourself opening the WRONG item

Yes! I've been dealing with exactly that issue over the last few days. I help publish an online Pink Floyd fan webzine (http://sparebricks.fika.org, if anyone's interested) with some fellow Floyd freaks. Our publication process involves me generating the pages, posting an early version for review, then all the contributors and the editor sending me fixes and changes just before it publishes. I work with the list of site files in list view sorted by more recently modified (so I know which ones to upload once I'm done with a round of edits) and found that I frequently had to click on files that I had updated just to force them to sort properly. Very, very annoying.

Obviously, I don't hate Jaguar (love it, in fact... all of these comlaints pale in comparison to my complaints about OS 9) but I certainly look forward to some of these rougher edges being smoothed out on Panther. I hope. :)

[mvc]

Originally posted by inkswamp

Obviously, I don't hate Jaguar (love it, in fact... all of these comlaints pale in comparison to my complaints about OS 9) but I certainly look forward to some of these rougher edges being smoothed out on Panther. I hope. :)

Yeah, certainly prefer X to 9 overall. Well, guess you and I are the only people who do any actual WORK on our Macs and notice these things since we are the only ones complaining. Rest must just be surfing for porn all the time :D

just kidding y'all

[Jeff Harrell]

Originally posted by inkswamp
If you're currently naming a folder, it stands to reason that any keyboard action would apply to that folder.

It might stand to reason to you, but it does not stand to reason to me. To me, the folder affected by operations would be the selected one, which you can clearly see right there in front of you in column view.

It has always worked that way before on the Mac. It works that way in icon and list view in both OS 9 and X. Why should column view behave differently?

Because column view is different. If you don't like the way it works, you are of course free to avoid it.

Apple themselves beg to differ with you as they issued a technote not a week after I sent this to them indicating that this behavior was inadvertent and would be addressed at a later time. Your opinion is that it is correct behavior.

Yes, my opinion is that it's the correct behavior. Keyboard operations and whatnot refer to the selected folder. Not to some other folder. In the scenario you described, the parent folder is the selected folder. You can tell this by looking at it. So the behavior is correct.

Now, if Apple were to change the operation of column view so that command-shift-N both creates and selects a new folder, and directs keyboard operations to the newly created folder, that would be the correct behavior. Changing the Finder so that it directs keyboard operations to a folder other than the selected folder, however, would not be correct behavior.

Anyway, thanks for not answering the question.

I answered the question. The answer is "Yes," that's how it works in Panther.

[inkswamp]

Originally posted by Jeff Harrell
It might stand to reason to you, but it does not stand to reason to me. To me, the folder affected by operations would be the selected one, which you can clearly see right there in front of you in column view.

Again, Apple disagrees with your reasoning as per their technote indicating that it leaves selected the "wrong" folder.

I feel that it's inconsistent Finder behavior because it doesn't work that way in either icon or list view. If I create a new folder in icon or list view and try to trash it mid-rename, the parent folder doesn't go to the trash too. In those views, the new folder being named is the selected folder. Why should column view exhibit markedly different behavior, especially behavior that is potentially confusing and destructive to a user's data?

Anyway, we're obviously not going to agree so I can only restate that.

[WM.]

Jeff and inkswamp:

Seems to me like your opinions aren't quite as mutually exclusive as you think. Jeff is saying, the parent folder is selected, so it should be affected by any user input (e.g. cmd-delete), but it would be OK if the child folder were selected and thus affected. inkswamp is saying simply that the parent shouldn't be affected. So it seems to me that you two do or could agree that the newly-created child folder should be selected, not the parent.

Right?

I suppose Apple's technote and subsequent inaction (although maybe they just haven't gotten around to fixing it yet) is kind of a curveball here, because you can both claim that Apple agrees with you 100%...but I'm a uniter, not a divider. :D

WM

[Jagga]

Reply: Question on Inkswamp's Column view new folder Panther question, and rebuttal towards Jeff. Ok I'm a poweruser mostly on how Windows works, and with a few months on Mac OS X 10.1.4-10.1.5. Inkswamp's stated "In column view, hit Apple+shift+N to create a new folder. Name the folder "parent." Now, select "parent" (still in column view) and hit Apple+shift+N to create a subfolder in "parent." Name this new folder "child." Before finishing the naming of "child", hit Apple+delete as if you mean to move "child" to the trash.".Now any user whom created the 'new' folder; then called it "child" without hitting return; normally should SEE "child" as being selected, as its name is CURRENTLY being named, right?! Hence if I backspace during the naming procedure, or even hit caps-lock, its STILL selected by the keyboard input, no??!! How else would that folder be created if its not selected by the kernel??? Very strange to me? Jeff I tried to re-read and read again your answer to inkswamps post to try to understand your personal position on this..........yes Panther is doing this, but after reading my post do you FEEL it should happen this way inside Column view and not list/icon view?? Personally Im still new to Mac so when I'm going through the hard drive---especially when following someone else's post on where my user folder is on the Mac Home>User>Office X (not exactly, but you get my drift, hehe.)--I'd like to know where I am relative to where I've been at all times, hence my preference for Column view.

:) How do you take care of this situation with my sort or preference??