TiBooks in a few weeks!!!!! [Archive]

IndyGopher

Apr 12, 2002, 02:01 PM

I'm going to add another voice of dissent here....

The last PowerBook that came standard with a SuperDrive was the Revision A Wallstreet PowerBook.. back when SuperDrive meant it read 720K/800K/and HD Floppies.

Where is this DVD-R/W style SuperDrive supposed to be coming from? Certainly not from any company that trades on any stock exchange.. since news of such a drive's existence would be plastered all over... this would be (and will be, eventually) a major breakthrough in size... it took Pioneer until the 104 model to get it the same size as a Normal, Full Sized 5.25" drive. (The 103 is noticibly longer, and difficult to mount in many enclosures)

So, I am going to steadfastly declare the 'superdrive equipped powerbook' is a complete fabrication. Hell, they even put the DVD/CDRW combo drive in the iBook first just because of size constraints.. and now less than a year later you think they're gonna slap a DVD-RW/CDRW combo in the same space... not gonna happen.

I also stand by my statement of several months ago that putting any burner into a portable whose battery cannot survive an entire burn would be foolish. So you'll be seeing lithium polymer batteries in the powerbook before (or at least at the same time as) adding a superdrive.

mcrain

Apr 12, 2002, 04:25 PM

If a small enough superdrive existed, apple could always do a power managment routine that would allow burning only when it was plugged in.

AlphaTech

Apr 12, 2002, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by chibianh
aren't we trying to get peecee people to SEE the light? and not blind them with it? heh :p

I say we do both... show them the light, and if they don't come over, blind them with it :D.

King Cobra

Apr 12, 2002, 04:32 PM

Remember when Apple first put their iBook on the market with a combo drive before the Powerbook? It would be pretty hard to fit in a Superdrive into such a small space.

This might not happen until closer to around 2003 if the following update lacks it.

Has it been done yet? Fitting a small enough DVD-R drive into the Ti?
________________

In the time it takes to read this message, an Apple computer will already have performed 15 billion float-point operations more than a consumer PC.

AlphaTech

Apr 12, 2002, 04:38 PM

IndyGopher... I'm adding my voice to yours... No SuperDrive TiBooks, at least not this year. I think a fast burner is a better option for most of the mobile professionals. I'm sure that many of them have Superdrive equiped towers either at home or work anyways. Get a gigabit rated network line, and slide the data to the tower with the dvd-r/w drive and do it there.

I can't see the current combo drive doing much to deplete the TiBook's battery any faster, since they burn pretty quick.

Vanilla

Apr 12, 2002, 05:19 PM

I would just like to state that my job requires that I alternate between Atlanta and London, roughly spending 1-2 months in each at a time. For this reason I use a portable. I hardly ever use it on battery only, preferring to set the machine up at my current workplace attached to the mains with a mouse and connected to the local network.

Therefore comments referring to "burn times" extending past battery life etc. is irrelevent for me as its always coupled to the mains. The vast majority of my work colleagues who also use portables use them for exactly the same reason, namely the ability to easily transport your computer system from one venue to the next. Actual use on battery only is incredibly rare. Frankly I have better things to do on a plane or a train than tap away on my computer: sleep for one.

An additional point is that I used to work in Tokyo. My friends there all use portables as space is at a premium and portables are a perfect solution to such restrictions.

IMO the original perception of laptops being geared towards road warrior types burning through batteries on the move, while still valid is no longer the dominant reason for the growth in portables. Rather its is simply the convenience of being able to pick up your system and instal it elsewhere (home, office etc.) that is the key attraction.

For this reason I would personally welcome a superdrive addition and anything else that brings the power of desktops into the flexibility of the portable.
Vanilla

quanta

Apr 12, 2002, 06:34 PM

What if the new powerbook is as revolutionary as the Ti was and is a new design altogether which can house the superdrive, cool itself efficiently enough for a faster processor and DDR RAM and has a faster bus?

To Alphatech, i'm going to be one of those mobile pros, but i don't have the sweet tower back at the desk... this will be it for me as you may remember, so i'm keeping my fingers crossed for the most possible options. Whatever the result, a faster burner or a Superdrive, i'm stoked to be positioned to take advantage of the next big thing, rather than fizzle with the last of a dying breed... ha ha ha. ha.

A chrome Tibook would look pretty flashy (he he), but it's a little austentaciour for my type. i'd like one with a rubberized, rugged appeal to it. Hmmmm.

yeah.

Hemingray

Apr 12, 2002, 06:35 PM

Originally posted by AlphaTech

I say we do both... show them the light, and if they don't come over, blind them with it :D.

The pee-cee users that don't come towards the light are obviously already blind in the first place. :D

SPG

Apr 12, 2002, 08:37 PM

The superdrive won't fit and maybe there is a new DVD-R/-RW drive that will, but either way the DVD burning laptop will eventually be here and I for one would prefer Apple be the company to debut it. Most people wouldn't have a huge need for it, although if it weren't a premium option it would be nice to have, and besides that DVD burning can be achieved quite well through Toast and an external Firewire DVD burner. I know that's not burning on the run, but battery issues could very well preclude that on a mobile machine anyway.
Let's hope they do come out with it, but I'd be very satisfied with a new powerbook that doesn't burn DVD's as long as there are some serious improvements over the current one.
Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go burn another DVD.

Rower_CPU

Apr 12, 2002, 08:39 PM

How about 12 weeks...MWNY seems more likely than WWDC for new hardware.

Better video, better battery life...superdrives can wait.

cb911

Apr 12, 2002, 09:51 PM

if they are going to release the G5 at NY then it makes sense to get the TiBook out there as soon as possible, so there isn't a double up of releases at NY

Rocketman

Apr 12, 2002, 10:08 PM

I got this cool (free) logitech #861050-1010 USB camera (with PC only software trying to force MSN use of course). Free is free. I figure plenty of people have them but it does not recognize automagically or even after software updastew to latest Carbon LIB today (on OS 9.2.2).

I guess anu USB webcam software MIGHT work but Quickmovie V2.1 from connetix failed despite being mac and USB (supposedly).

Ideas? Reply direct to USBcamera@v-serv.com

Rocketman
:confused:

mcrain

Apr 13, 2002, 08:56 AM

All I can ask for that is critical is that they don't release a brand new computer without firewire 2 and THEN release firewire 2 a few months later. I would be really really mad if I bought a new 'puter and it couldn't use all the new peripherals that were being released.

So, a new TiBook would make me hornier than a teen at a bikini contest, but if it doesn't have Firewire 2, it would be just as frustrating.

M

mcrain

Apr 13, 2002, 08:57 AM

Hey everyone, I'm over 200!!!

Wowsers.

Mr. Anderson

Apr 13, 2002, 09:06 AM

Originally posted by cb911
if they are going to release the G5 at NY then it makes sense to get the TiBook out there as soon as possible, so there isn't a double up of releases at NY

This is 'proof'?

Rationalizing Apple marketing strategy based on what you think, might not work here. Apple's track record speaks for itself, you can't really pin them down to anything.

But don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a TiPB at WWDC, but I'll believe it when I see it.

AlphaTech

Apr 13, 2002, 11:05 AM

I agree dukestreet, I will believe that the new TiBook (or whatever it will be called) is here when I can put my hands on it. I just hope that when it does arrive, it blows everyone away, and is not just another minor update. Speed is important, but more then a few MHz would be great. Considering how there is only a maximum of 167MHz difference between the rev a and rev b TiBooks. I can only imaging/dream about Apple releasing a GHz TiBook at the next release (NY????).

emdezet

Apr 13, 2002, 11:09 AM

The current iBooks and PowerBooks are set for sell-out in Germany as of Monday. Apple says, no more notebook shipments in April.
Believe it guys, the new PBooks are flyin' in.

emdezet

AlphaTech

Apr 13, 2002, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by emdezet
The current iBooks and PowerBooks are set for sell-out in Germany as of Monday. Apple says, no more notebook shipments in April.
Believe it guys, the new PBooks are flyin' in.

emdezet

We will believe it when they are either posted on the Apple Store web site, in retail channels, or in our hands.

Hey mcrain, sorry to be brutally blunt, but who gives a rat's rectum that you just hit 200 posts?? 500 is something to mention, 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000.... those are marks that you could mention... But 200??? sheeeesh, talk about easily impressed.

King Cobra

Apr 13, 2002, 11:36 AM

Yeah, really. C'mon on. Even I didn't make a big deal at 200. I just discussed about something in reply to someone, and put a small, cute comment in the end.

And I did it all in one post!

As for the Powerbooks, they had just better be flyin' in. And I will be waiting to see some much improved speeds.

Question: If Apple decides to improve on the Powerbook not only in speed, what else could be done? (If you want to bring up shiny colors knock yourselves out...it a rumor page :) )
_______________

Any time is a great time for iPod.

AlphaTech

Apr 13, 2002, 11:52 AM

Thanks for backing me up on that King Cobra...

As for improvements/updates that I would drool over in the next PowerBook release/update/revision... how about DDR memory, ATA100/133 drive interface, 32MB or 64MB video cards (I would prefer ATI's mobile Radeon 7500 or 7800)... Of course, you know how I want Hard Chrome to be one of the finishes, or maybe black anodized/powder-coated. All three are hard finishes that won't get marred too easily, and will make them stand out from the croud. For those that want it, they could also offer a copper/gold edition, although that might be too much for the factories to pump out. Apple has typically used one finish for quite some time before switching. Just look at how long the PowerBook G3 case was around before they went to the Titanium. We probably won't see a different case until they make a new version, such as a G5 PowerBook... I would still love to have the chrome though :D.

3xtrmn8r

Apr 13, 2002, 12:55 PM

In regards to pros burning onto DVD at IHOP.

DVD burning via AO3/4 may be alright for smaller projects, but DLT is a way better soluiton for pros.

Duplication houses usually require masters on DLT, or they'll glady take burned DVD's and convert it over to DLT for about $1200. Do that a couple of times and you'll find that it gets kind of expensive. Plus DLT holds a heckuva lot more.

Anyway, AO3/4 drives have a fan on the back of them, meaning they get hot!! In order to get one in a PowerBook, Pioneer needs to have it running cooler in the desktops first.

Hazzeem

Apr 13, 2002, 01:27 PM

If apple were to release the new powerbooks/ibooks at WWDC, it would make total sense. Granted this is mostly based on rumor, but follow me for a second. When you consider the upcoming release of 10.1.4 (rumor) and apple's newfound dedication to bluetooth capability (fact) a logical conclusion would be that something new is on the way.

I see .4 being an upgrade that starts *shipping* with the new portables. It might be available to the public, but since it would only be small bug fixes (that would have included in an update anyway) and built-in support for bluetooth it wouldn't really be necessary to release it to the general public. So new bluetooth enabled powerbooks/ibooks get released at WWDC along with 10.1.4 to include the functionality.

With all the speculation about sell-outs in this country and shipping dates at that store...it all leads a lot of hints toward an upcoming hardware release.

Since the current revB powerbook is almost 8 months old it's GOT to be the powerbook, right? RIGHT?? :rolleyes:

Mr. Anderson

Apr 13, 2002, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by emdezet
The current iBooks and PowerBooks are set for sell-out in Germany as of Monday. Apple says, no more notebook shipments in April.

That would sync with a WWDC release. Hmm. If this happens in a few more places, I'll be more inclined to beleive that its going to show up. But this is also a good opportunity to watch and see if it does happen, aid in gauging further speculation down the road, specifically MWNY.

If anyone can remember this thread by the time WWDC rolls around. :D

SPG

Apr 13, 2002, 05:58 PM

3xtrmn8r, You're right about the DLT, but more and more replicators are taking the authoring DVDR's burned on the Pioneer S201, and even the General DVDR's are becoming more accepted. Have you seen a firewire DLT drive? Are they available? As far as I know, they don't exist yet, so if there aren't any firewire DLT drives than authoring and delivering from a laptop on anything but a DVD-R or HD, isn't going to happen. I guess that the final step will still require a desktop machine so DVD creation on a laptop will still be the realm of the amateurs, or the semi pro's making one off's on DVDR. That's not to say that it's not a good idea to have DVD burners in laptops, just that they're not really intended to be a real DVD authoring solution. A DVD burner would be nice to have to send out a copy of a video edit for review though, so the mobile FCP crowd would definitely welcome it.

jefhatfield

Apr 13, 2002, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by AlphaTech

We will believe it when they are either posted on the Apple Store web site, in retail channels, or in our hands.

Hey mcrain, sorry to be brutally blunt, but who gives a rat's rectum that you just hit 200 posts?? 500 is something to mention, 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000.... those are marks that you could mention... But 200??? sheeeesh, talk about easily impressed.

in a few months, 1000 posts will not be such a big deal...that will happen when eyelikeart hits 2000 or even 2500 and a few others hit 1500

about a year ago or less, posters who hit 200 were unofficially called demi-gods and they were john123, spikey, and kela, and maybe one or two others (of course, then there were just over 2,000 members on macrumors.com)

cb911

Apr 14, 2002, 07:15 AM

its getting even closer to WWDC and there are no more TiBooks being sold in Germany or Japan. i'm not sure about anywhere else in the world, and i haven't checked Apple stores here in Aus to see if they are still shipping.
have you checked out that rumor on the main page of Macrumors? it mentions that the new TiBooks might have a thicker casing. this would be able to fit a superdrive no worries. and having the larger area means that there is more room for heat dissapation.
i just hope they don't make it too much thicker...
and as for the issue of a superdrive being overkill, i for one would welcome it with open arms. i'll be using my new TiBook as my only computer. i won't have access to a desktop with superdrive, so it would be awesome it the new TiBook had it.
all these rumors are making the release of a new TiBook heaps more beliveable. soon we'll be waiting for G4 iBooks!
back to the subject of TiBook finishes, has anyone heard any rumors about chrome or any different finishes? it would be SSOOOOOO good if there was an option of a chrome TiBook!!!:D

jefhatfield

Apr 14, 2002, 11:26 AM

cent 1 - titanium can only be annodized into red and black with weak yields

cent 2 - is superdrive worth a thicker tibook case and possibly more weight to lug around? i mean, does a tibook need to be a friggin movie studio in a backpack? it might be cool, but part of the tibook's greatness is its slim/weight factor...and i have no clue as to what should be done

my two cents:D

AlphaTech

Apr 14, 2002, 12:54 PM

jef,

I wouldn't mind if the PowerBook G4 wasn't made from titanium in the other color versions. Although, I am sure that they would be able to hard chrome it up. Would you grab a black titanium PowerBook??? I think that many people would.

I don't need, or really want, a superdrive inside of the PowerBook G4. I think a faster cd burner would be more useful. I think that many of the video professionals, and amatures alike, that use the laptops, have external storage to fill up as they need to. It would be better, in my opinion, to just slide the files to a high powered tower to manipulate and then burn the dvd's on. That is what the dual processor towers are for.

It is also easier to store video when you have multiple drives inside the tower then trying to do it with a laptop. Considering how you can easily fit up to four (or five if you know how) hard drives into the G4 tower. There are four screw holes in the G4 tower's zip drive bay, at least there was in the versions before the QuickSilver. I will have to check my resources to see if they are still there in the QuickSilver models. I have installed zip drives into the G4's and used all four screws (two per side).

Either way, we should see some new products either at WWDC or MWNY. I just hope it is enough to satisfy at least some of our cravings for speed and performance.

bonehead

Apr 14, 2002, 04:25 PM

As a video professional who is waiting to buy an updated TiBook, I would rather Apple not include the superdrive if it means an increase in size and weight. Why? Well, most people who do this for a living have access to another computer that can burn DVDs. If you don't, lease a tower. You get to write off the entire lease payment every month and at the end of the lease you buy it or turn it in for a new computer. If you really make a living in video, the extra $150 a month isn't going to kill you. Also, you can use your desktop as a render machine if you need to. Plus, the TiBook doesn't have Level 3 cache so I would think FCP (or whatever you use) would run faster on the desktop. Please correct me if I am wrong about that. Anyway, you would still have the lightness of the TiBook and a faster system for those rare times you weren't editing/animating/compositing on a plane or a train or at the beach. One other thing. Even if the TiBook comes with a 60GB hard drive, you're going to need a lot more storage than that if you want to have multiple projects on your machine at one time. So you're going to need to lug around external FireWire drives. If you had the desktop also, you could cram in four or five drives as AlphaTech has noted. This would give you ample space to have critical media backed up in case something happened to your TiBook. Anyway, this is just my opinion, but I wanted to respond to those who say video people need/want a superdrive in the TiBook no matter what the size/weight cost.

SPG

Apr 14, 2002, 06:33 PM

As someone who makes a living authoring DVD's a tiBook with a superdrive is of no use to me. As someone who also goes on location to film his own side projects, a tiBook with a DVD burner would be great.
This is how it's supposed to work... shoot, load in the footage as lowres photoJPEG to rough edit, replace actual used shots with DV, burn your edit to DVD, fedex to client or film festival. Essentially do everything without having to come back to the studio. I know people who have rough edited entire movies while still on location.
I think what Apple is really aiming for is the above scenario as the hook to entice the amateur film makers and the travelling pros, and anyone who wants to only own a single machine (read hobbyist, students, etc.).
At first I thought that the DVD burner would be a silly addition, but the more I think about it the more I see it becoming a neccessity in the not so distant future, especially considering the growing size of todays files...remember a DVD is 4.7Gigs of data.
____________________
Cha-Ching!

AlphaTech

Apr 14, 2002, 06:38 PM

I don't think the superdrive or DVD burner will go inside a TiBook until they can get the form factor down. I can't see Apple allowing the TiBook to get fatter to accomidate the superdrive. I can see them pushing Panasonic to get the drive thinner and such in order to get it to fit into the TiBook's form factor.

Of course, once that happens, all the peecee laptop makers will be pushing to have it inside of their systems. Another case of the peecee world playing follow the leader with Apple.

Rower_CPU

Apr 14, 2002, 06:42 PM

Exactly...
Let function follow form in this case and wait for the drives to become slimmer...maybe they need a diet (I know I do!).

SPG

Apr 14, 2002, 06:42 PM

Pioneer makes the Superdrive, not Panasonic.
There very well may be a new incarnation of the superdrive. The current one definitely won't even come close to fitting so there would have to be some kind of redesign. The romored thickness increase may be minimal.
_________________
It's getting snappier every day.

buffsldr

Apr 14, 2002, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by jefhatfield
cent 1 - titanium can only be annodized into red and black with weak yields

my two cents:D

That's news to me. Do you have a reference for that Jeff?

jefhatfield

Apr 14, 2002, 07:26 PM

i wish i remember where i read it, and i also don't remember which color was easier to make

the unfortunate thing is that the colored tibooks would cost more to make...i think black would be really cool though

AlphaTech

Apr 14, 2002, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by SPG
Pioneer makes the Superdrive, not Panasonic.
There very well may be a new incarnation of the superdrive. The current one definitely won't even come close to fitting so there would have to be some kind of redesign. The romored thickness increase may be minimal.
_________________
It's getting snappier every day.

My bad... I knew it started with a P at least. I had just got back from riding the Harley for a few hours and was adjusting to sitting still again. :D

As for anodizing titanium, there are many factors that come into play. There is a titanium supplier in MA that could know. I will see if I can gather any information about limitations on anodizing or plating as it pertains to Titanium.

I do know that they can be treated to get a blue color, as well as a golden one. Not sure about any others. I also seem to remember some that can be done with heat alone, and not need a chemical reaction to colorize it. Titanium is great stuff...

cb911

Apr 17, 2002, 01:35 AM

yeah, titanium is pretty good. forget about anodizing, does anyone know if titanium can be chromed? or would Apple have to change the material that the case is made from?

anyway, now it looks like Apple already has the superdrive issue sorted. apparently there won't be any change to the case. this must mean that the TiBook will have a superdrive and keep its current shape!!:D

edit>

i was just thinking about the TiBook with a 800 or 1GHz processor. does anyone know what Apple will do to keep the temperature down? will there have to be another fan, or has some really big development of the G4 happened?

bonehead

Apr 17, 2002, 02:59 AM

I believe that the chips going into the next rev TiBook will be Apollos. Don't they use less power and thus generate less heat? How much of the heat of the current TiBook is generated by the proc? Does anyone know? Thanks.

iGav

Apr 17, 2002, 04:23 AM

From what I've found on the net Titanium can be hard chromed.... but it's alittle bit of a process.... one quote from www.finishing.com is as follows:

only way you'll really plate titanium successfully is to nickel plate it and then heat it hot enough for the nickel to diffuse into the titanium. There is an ASTM standard for this

http://www.uschromeofca.com/titanium.html also has more information about chroming Ti, apparantly they use it on the Space Shuttle... Kewl!!

I agree with AlphaTech and Rower_CPU about the the superdrive in the TiBook, as the technology evolves it'll become smaller, and then they can squeeze it in, not make the TiBook larger.... that'd be BAD!!

I think we'll have to wait until the G5 Powerbook is released, I think by the time this happens (10 to 15 years) :p Pioneer should just have about made it small enough to fit....... As long as Apple don't make the same reduction in size again as they did from the G3 to the TiBook......:p

I wonder what would be the most popular though.....

• Current Silver colour
• Anodised Black
• Hard Chrome- all nice and shiney.....

I'll go with the chrome.......;)

cb911

Apr 17, 2002, 07:53 AM

iGAV, thanks for the links, they were a big help and interesting. 10 to 15 years for a superdrive? who wants to wait that long? i think they are alot closer than we think. i reckon there's a good chance that next TiBooks will have a superdrive.

AlphaTech

Apr 17, 2002, 09:00 AM

Just in case noone else is aware of this, but hard chroming is a two step process. The material first gets nickle plated, and then chrome plated, hence the 'hard' chrome. I had this done to several pistol magazines years back, the chrome is still there, and it only added a few thousandths of an inch to the thickness of the material.

mcrain

Apr 17, 2002, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by AlphaTech
Hey mcrain, sorry to be brutally blunt, but who gives a rat's rectum that you just hit 200 posts?? 500 is something to mention, 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000.... those are marks that you could mention... But 200??? sheeeesh, talk about easily impressed.

Actually, to be blunt right back at you, the number of posts a person has is a ludicrous thing to make a big deal about. Who gives a rats a** if you have 4000 posts? It doesn't mean anything. It certainly doesn't mean you know more than I do.

To anyone who has seen me on the boards will know, I am here to engage in intellectual discussion and to learn all I can. I'm not a computer science or computer engineering person, so I won't pretend to know about computers.

However, by your logic, because I have 200 posts, I'm smarter than someone with 2 posts, but dumber than someone with 2000 posts.

In reality, the person with 2 posts, but a computer background, knows more than the guy with no life and no education with 2000 posts.

I know sarcasm is a hard thing to express over a post, but the number of posts I have doesn't mean squat to me. The number of posts you have doesn't mean squat to me. Your experience in the subject at hand, Macs, is all I care about.

So, guess what. I don't give a rats rectum how many posts I have, and I would hope that people who are "easily impressed" by 500, 1000, 2000 or more posts aren't either, but that's probably too much to ask!

mcrain

Apr 17, 2002, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by AlphaTech
the chrome is still there, and it only added a few thousandths of an inch to the thickness of the material.

I'd buy a chrome powerbook, but I know I'd be completely anal-retentive about keeping it perfectly shiny with no fingerprints. Probably to the point of having to wipe it every time I opened it or touched the outside.

I'm sure that could get annoying and counter-productive at some point.

AlphaTech

Apr 17, 2002, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by mcrain

I'd buy a chrome powerbook, but I know I'd be completely anal-retentive about keeping it perfectly shiny with no fingerprints. Probably to the point of having to wipe it every time I opened it or touched the outside.

I'm sure that could get annoying and counter-productive at some point.

Hard chrome doesn't care about fingerprints, and unless you have oily skin or just ate a nasty burger, you will be fine. It also takes more then a little effort to scratch the stuff (hence why it is called 'hard'). Use a little car wax (the good stuff) on it and you won't need to worry about much :D.

That would be the final deciding factor for me getting a new laptop this year, the finish of the case.

jefhatfield

Apr 17, 2002, 10:51 AM

the posts thing is just in fun...at least it started that way in the early days...we would congrat each other on 100, 200, etc (nobody was at 300 yet for the first year i think)

some of the smartest people who belong here have probably never posted once

if you want computer experts, go to www.experts-exchange.com where there are hundreds of thousands of techies on board there worldwide...the mac section is really informative

Jookbox

Apr 17, 2002, 04:12 PM

Hey mcrain, sorry to be brutally blunt, but who gives a rat's rectum that you just hit 200 posts?? 500 is something to mention, 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000.... those are marks that you could mention... But 200??? sheeeesh, talk about easily impressed.

and on the other end of the spectrum, those that have... say... over 1000 posts within a couple months have too much time on their hands or just being a slacker at work.

Rower_CPU

Apr 17, 2002, 04:14 PM

AlphaTech

Apr 17, 2002, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by Jookbox

and on the other end of the spectrum, those that have... say... over 1000 posts within a couple months have too much time on their hands or just being a slacker at work.

I think it has more to do with a lack of a woman in my life at the moment. Besides the fact that it is a bit slow at work right now. We have done enough preventative maintenance on the computers that we don't get flooded with calls anymore. We also have completed the major application installs (like updating everyone to orfice 2001 as well as choice others). Major is any time we have to install on more then 20% of the people here (300 users at this location, for two techs, myself included).

cb911

Apr 17, 2002, 04:43 PM

i don't really care how many posts someone has, as long as they know what they are talking about and are genuinely interested in learning or helping others with Mac stuff.

i was just thinking that if Apple doesn't release a chromed TiBook, i might be able custom airbrush it or someting. does anyone know what sort of paint i would have to use? i was also wondering if anyone has any pictures of customised TiBooks. i've seen some pics of painted iBooks, some of them turned out really good, but no one seems game enough to try it on a TiBook!

AlphaTech

Apr 17, 2002, 04:52 PM

cb911, I would be very careful about painting, especially with an airbrush, your TiBook. If you are adept enough, consider taking it apart, removing all of the insides from the base, and then painting it. I would also mask off the screen, and the ports/openings.

You would want to scuff the surface, prime and then paint with a high temp enamel. Maybe put a few coats of clear on it too. Not a project for the faint of heart.

I thought that the people that made the skins for the G3 and G4 towers were working on something for the laptops. Has anyone seen/heard anything additional about this??

I'll probably just wait for Apple to come out with something even cooler then the TiBook is now before getting a new one. I just need to get some room on the old credit card before MWNY just in case that is when it happens. Otherwise, come MWSF, I am getting another Mac. Either tower or desktop.

cb911

Apr 18, 2002, 01:55 AM

AlphaTech, i was thinking of just taking off the top and bottom covers and airbrushing them. there is no way i would go near the screen. so Apple might be working on something for the laptops? come on, someone out there must have some info on this.
i was also wondering, if i stuffed up the covers of the TiBook, just the top and bottom, could i buy replacements? how much would new covers cost?
is there anyone that makes aftermarket TiBook covers? i know that there are companies working on top covers to reduce flex in the screens.

jefhatfield

Apr 18, 2002, 05:46 AM

Originally posted by Jookbox

and on the other end of the spectrum, those that have... say... over 1000 posts within a couple months have too much time on their hands or just being a slacker at work.

it took me nearly two years to hit 1000 and i am amazed at how some people did it in just a few months...but i will admit that all those heavy posters who did it in such a short time know much more about macs than me

i only consider myself a mac user and not a mac artist or mac technician...by default, a lot of mac artists become mac technicians if they stay in the field long enough

...and many technicians, of the computer type or not in the IT biz, if they stay in this brutal field long enough, eventually toss their screwdrivers, soldering irons, and multimeters, and become fledgling picassos:D

i actually know of a few pale, fat techies who took up sports...maybe they can lose a hundred pounds and get some friggin sunlight for a change...he he

eyelikeart

Apr 18, 2002, 09:40 AM

Originally posted by jefhatfield
the posts thing is just in fun...at least it started that way in the early days...we would congrat each other on 100, 200, etc (nobody was at 300 yet for the first year i think)

some of the smartest people who belong here have probably never posted once

hey...congrats on 1100 jef!!! :p

AlphaTech

Apr 18, 2002, 09:57 AM

Jef, I started off as a graphic designer but was always working on the computers no matter where I was. Might have something to do with the fact that I have been on computers since I was about 8. My parents had the forethought to get a computer as soon as it was affordable (back in 78 we paid about what a top end G4 tower runs now). After that, I was hooked. At college, I was a lab tech for the Mac department. I was able to pick up everything fast enough to be effective in assisting other students, as well as some of the professors. After college (with graphic desing BFA in hand), I set up the network for a small sign shot that I was working at. Since I created the network, I had to maintain it, as well as add more systems onto it as needed. This is all before ethernet took off. Every job since then, I was always working on the computers, both as a designer and as a partial tech.

I have been a dedicated computer tech for over two years now and don't ever want to go back to the design field. I support mostly Mac systems (about 250 of them) with some peecee's (about 40 of them). My main love is still the Mac's but I know that peecee's do have their uses. Unfortunately, there is some software that needs to be used and either only runs on windblows, or does it better.

I am essentially self taught when it comes to computers, with very little formal training. A few classes between high school and college, and that is all. I never bothered with any of the m$ certifications, since I have found them to be worthless in the area I work in. Real world knowledge is worth tons more then something from m$ saying that you know what they want you to. Besides the fact that just because m$ says something, doesn't mean it is true in the real world (as many tech's know).

As for the number of posts I have now... I never go halfway on something. If it is worth doing, go full bore :D. I might be posting less some days, especially when we have good weather up here. I want to ride the HD as much as possible :D. I also need to wash it already...

AJW

Apr 18, 2002, 02:54 PM

Battery life should come before a SuperDrive for the TiBook, otherwise we'll just be burning coasters at $5 a pop because the batteries ar getting killed by the SuperDrive before the DVD is done. And if I'm going to plug in a power cord, I might as well plug in a (probably faster) FireWire DVD/RW as well.

I did hear something (at AtAT???) about Apple and Pioneer demoing a thin, slotload SuperDrive to developers at MWTk...

cb911

Apr 18, 2002, 11:49 PM

AJW, do you have any figures of how much power a superdrive uses? it might not be anymore than the current combo drive.

and could someone please let me know if there is anywhere to buy replacement covers (top and bottom) for the TiBook? and does anyone know of aftermarket TiBook covers?

jefhatfield

Apr 19, 2002, 12:35 AM

Originally posted by AlphaTech
[B

I am essentially self taught when it comes to computers, with very little formal training. A few classes between high school and college, and that is all. I never bothered with any of the m$ certifications, since I have found them to be worthless in the area I work in. Real world knowledge is worth tons more then something from m$ saying that you know what they want you to. Besides the fact that just because m$ says something, doesn't mean it is true in the real world (as many tech's know).
[/B]

most techs in the field are without certifications or cs degrees because they do not address the real world...do we see any baseball players with a ba/bs degree in batting with a specialty in hitting curve balls?

PyroTurtle

Apr 19, 2002, 12:40 AM

ok, a single DVD on my tower burns in less than half an hour...
my Ti400's battery with the DVD Drive running, screen brightness all the way up, and copying things to tower via airport, copying stuff to external hard drive, and being on-line via ethernet, my battery still last 2 hours miniumum...i couldn't think of any other ways to drain the battery really...and still, 2 hours!
plus, on top of that, the 867 tower i have takes LESS energy to burn that DVD than i do using an airport card acourding to my power regulator...so, battery problem isn't issue in that respect...
i wish i had a SuperDrive in my Ti, it would be nice...and the last superdrive in a powerbook was an LS-120 SuperDrive which read 740K, 800K, 1.4MB, and 120MB disks...sorry, that was bugging me...
now, just get that form factor down and you'd be set!

jefhatfield

Apr 19, 2002, 09:28 AM

so there is someone who wants a superdrive in the tibook...cool

well if that happens, six months later the ibooks will have them (and cater to us home users)

and six months later after that, all the pcs will have them and the superdrive will be the common flavor of the day

after apple started with combo drives, the pc world started using the combo drives everywhere

after apple had firewire, sony then took up suit, and then i started seeing firewire, or ieee 1394 as the pc world calls the technology

steve jobs is really talking his innovation over ms style profits without regard to quality role seriously and after its all said and done, steve jobs will be put into the inventors hall of fame right up there with steve wozniak

way to go, my jobs (and i rarely compliment mr jobs since i am a woz fan)

Mr. Anderson

Apr 19, 2002, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by jefhatfield
so there is someone who wants a superdrive in the tibook...cool

well if that happens, six months later the ibooks will have them (and cater to us home users)

There is still the issue of the thickness or lack of it in the TiPB. If the can get the superdrive super thin that's great. But as it stands right now, it would fit in the iBook. I'm sure Apple would want to put the SD in the TiPB first, but maybe that won't happen.

Ha, 800 baby!

(That was in response to the earlier threads on this page:cool: )

mcrain

Apr 19, 2002, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by dukestreet
Ha, 800 baby!

(That was in response to the earlier threads on this page:cool: )

I wonder if anyone will give you a hard time for saying anything about 800 posts, considering some people are so touchy around here.

It's fine to blabber on and on about inane crap, but mention the number of posts you have, and you better have asbestos undies on.

What a silly world.

IndyGopher

Apr 19, 2002, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by PyroTurtle
..and the last superdrive in a powerbook was an LS-120 SuperDrive which read 740K, 800K, 1.4MB, and 120MB disks...sorry, that was bugging me...

Except Apple never made that drive... it was a third-party thing from VST... and the drives were not called superdrives.. the drives were LS-120 drives, or superdisk drives... the 120 Meg disks were called superdisks. And if they were supposed to read 720 and 800 K disks, then they had the highest failure rate in history... I have never had one work with a low density disk. Same with the PC version, and the USB external version.

Dunepilot

Apr 19, 2002, 06:39 PM

Originally posted by IndyGopher

And if they were supposed to read 720 and 800 K disks, then they had the highest failure rate in history... I have never had one work with a low density disk. Same with the PC version, and the USB external version.

I seem to be REALLY unlucky with external drives.

I have an LS120 released a little after the original iMac, and it rarely works at all - the data doesn't seem to be secure, the driver is nigh-on-useless, and I haven't seen any updates for it for a while given that the product seems to have died when faced with the onslaught of cheap optical media.

But no, I'm not even lucky with optical media. I have an Iomega 'ZipCD' (not the predator, the fat purple USB one). It burns a coaster maybe half of the time it burns. This is running under OS 9.2.2 and minimal extensions, nothing else plugged on the bus!

What a piece of junk.:mad:

Why do I always get landed with stuff that doesn't work!?

Grokgod

Apr 20, 2002, 12:29 AM

hey , dont you actually go out and buy that crap?

Anything by Iomega is total crap. Period!

I just posted that so that I could land on 70 posts.

Hurray! No wait !, i dont care and neither should any one else.

emdezet

Apr 20, 2002, 05:46 AM

As I keep introducing myself: I work at a local Apple retailer's.

So yesterday I came in early to fix my girl's iMac I had brought along,
it kept booting to the open firmware prompt.
Since everbody else was busy I kept answering the phone while Norton kept munching on the drive.

One call I got was especially funny. A customer with a Ti667-order called in, because he had "heard" the _new_ PowerBooks were just coming up. And he honestly asked me if I knew their features and pricing.

I started the conversation along the lines of:
"Apple have made no official announcements, I have no crystal ball and am not clairvoyant."
But he insisted: "You know what I mean- unofficially - through the grape vine etc."
So I told him what y'all have been chewing on. But when I inquired what application he'd put the 'Book to, he answered with an embarassed smile in his voice:
"Nah, this is not a rational decision. Two years ago I converted from Mac to Windows, and I HAVE HAD IT!!!! I want my Mac back, and I want it to totally KICK ASS! So I just want the best Apple notebook out there."

I guess, this guy is going to cancel his order and wait.
What I don't understand: Why would someone place an order for a notebook, because the price just dropped a couple of hundreds of Euro, and not implicitly understand that a new model was coming, and we are just cleaning out our shelves? That's the way it has been working for decades now!

AmbitiousLemon

Apr 20, 2002, 08:02 AM

Originally posted by jefhatfield

most techs in the field are without certifications or cs degrees because they do not address the real world...do we see any baseball players with a ba/bs degree in batting with a specialty in hitting curve balls?

ok i see this kind of talk A LOT on this site and ive kept my mouth shut, but hey im in the mood so what the hell...

Yes most techs dont have a degree, but you know what else? Most techs are morons. the reason techs dont have degrees is because the people with degrees are doing more important work. the peopel with the degrees dont want some crappy tech job, and so companies that need a tech are stuck with hiring worthless hacks who typically do more harm than good.

You guys seem to be of the opinion that a degree wouldnt help, or that people who get degrees dont learn anything worthwhile. Sounds to me like someone is just a little bitter. fact of the matter is, people with technical degrees are getting afr better jobs than any technical position.

those of you who are techs shoudl be thankful there are so few educated people that companies are forced to hire unqualified people like you.

And before you critiscize someone with a degree perhaps you should ask yourself why didnt you get one. Chances are you arent smart enough or lack the discipline. I guess people will always knock the people who are smarter and more talented than them... so all you kids who read these thread be sure to listen to these guys and learn you lesson "its cool to be dumb, so dont pay attention in school and dont go to college. college is for nerds."

jefhatfield

Apr 20, 2002, 10:33 AM

i agree with everything you say, amibitiouslemon...good points

i will play devil's advocate for one moment

i have a technical certification and an associate's degree (liberal arts) and a bachelor's degree (business), i am a computer science teacher, and i am working on a graduate degree in computer science/engineering as well as another technical certification...when it is all over i will hopefully have my phd in computer engineering and my mcse

however, before i even got my first set of letters behind my name, i was in the working world for 16 years...a customer of mine was the co-founder of sun microsystems and he dropped out of school in the first year...silicon valley and the high tech industry is built on computers (by non-degreed steve jobs, then non-degreed steve wozniak) and non-degreed mike dell...it it built on software with non-degreed bill gates, larry ellison, and paul allen...and it is still hopefully built around the internet and commerce (non-degreed shawn fanning)...now these non-degreed people were and are not idiots by any stretch of the imagination and being from northern california, i don't think i just mentioned fly-by-nights here...bill gates came to our local college and talked and no one took him seriously because software was not yet a force in the IT industry but nobody cared if he had a degree or not, we just knew he was a multi-millionaire at the time...in silicon valley, money talks louder than degrees or certifications

but since i do understand the research side of IT since i worked at autodesk and some other companies, many of the products that those above mentioned non-degreed people made trillions on did so on the shoulders of many of the world's bright phds who did the legwork on the motherboard, componenets, and developement...most of these people in the early days of silicon valley had their phds in either electrical/electronic engineering and mathenatics and for the most part, still do today and like yesteryear, they are the unsung heroes of silicon valley...and many, if not most of these brilliant mathematicians and engineers with phds do not speak english as their first language as i have met many from india and china

but when i recieve my graduate degree and have the best certification i can receive from microsoft, i will still realize that people who do not have letters behind their names are just as important in the IT field...my entire business clientele comes from being microsoft certified and one "man" in redmond washington with no degree could yank that away from me any second...bill gates almost did away with the entire concept of an IT certification because he thought it got in the way of speedy sales, his favorite topic

anyway, thanks for the comment and giving me something to say...the IT world is not so black and white as you will realize once you get in the working field of IT and sorry if i gave you the impression that education is a waste of time...i am also a teacher, but i mentioned that already (if i think education is a waste of time, then i just wasted away 14 semesters so far;)

AlphaTech

Apr 20, 2002, 11:00 AM

ok, AmbitiousLemon, let me get one of my spare cans of whoop-ass out... :D

One, I have a degree, just not in computer (BFA in graphic design). I have been on, and working on, computers for about 23 years now.

Two, even at college, I was fixing the computers because I could think things through to a solution and it worked. That is where I started gaining my knowledge of fixing systems, not just working on them.

Three, since I did go to an art college, and didn't know that I wanted to be a tech at the time (we are talking about back in 88 when I started college here) does that make me any less of a tech??? By boss doesn't think so, and she has been doing this for over 10 years now (with the company we are at).

Four, the tech field is highly competative right now. If you don't measure up, you get replaced, pure and simple. I have seen it done at our Boston site many times. The good ones get brought on staff, the crappy ones usually don't last more then two or three weeks.

Four, I have one certification from Apple currently, and I am working on getting the second one. I have the desktop one, and studying for the portables. MSCE classes, tests, and exams cost tons, and wouldn't do me any good as far as advancing my carreer. I am primarily a Mac tech (very few good ones out there) but I also support peecee's (since we have 40 at the site I work at, along with 250 Mac systems).

Five, the people that try to say that non-degreed tech's are not worth anything are usually the ones that are bitter about us getting the better jobs because we have real world experience. Not just a slip of paper saying you spent umpteen thousands on an education, but have no work experience. Sorry, but there are not many fields out there that are willing to bring you on without at least some experience.

I would be interested to see how many tech's that read this actually do have a computer science degree, and how they came to be in the carreer/position they are. I would also like to see how many Mac tech's that read this, also have a CS degree and how many are either self taught or were forced to learn because you couldn't get any of the peecee techs where you were to help you any.

Not bad... almost a six pack :D

jefhatfield

Apr 20, 2002, 11:07 AM

being a dedicated liberal, i hate it when my own democratic party tells a bold lie in order to get votes...i usually expect that from that other party;)

but one thing the democrats have done, to get the education/teacher vote, has been to push education and that it ok

but i always run into democratic party literature around election time which tries to find a co-relation between education and wage/salary and it just is not there

it is kind of like the richard nixon campaign with his "friends" at the national institutes of health who tried to find a connection between viruses and cancer when most doctors knew that was hogwash...but it was politics and nixon thought he could get a little leverage with NIH by giving them millions for this research...no one likes to bite the hand that feeds them

education political lobbyists like to make the argument that education=money but if you believe that, come stay with me in northern california and i will show you all the out of work graudates from u.c. snata cruz or u.c. berkeley who have totally perfect educations but have awful 7 dollar an hour jobs if they even have a job...the left wing political correctness bullhockey being shoveled to us in california public universities saying that money is "bad" or something to that effect, creates an entire generation of intellectuals who can't find work due to their ultra leftist beliefs and belief that money is greed, and greed is the root of all evil

now come on, who will pay your bills?

i don't see out of work people who graduated from nearby stanford, university of santa clara, or golden gate university because their education has a more conservative bent and is more realistic with the world of commerce versus the world of liberal political education

when my republican friends call me on the bs that the democrats put out about education being more important than foreign policy and all that the dems can say is education=better salary, i stay quiet and while the dems try to push their agenda, a huge gaping hole was left in out foreign policy and the result of that, in my opinion, was seeing the twin towers go down

education has its place, but there are other issues important to california and the united states

jefhatfield,
registered democrat

jefhatfield

Apr 20, 2002, 11:25 AM

Originally posted by AlphaTech
ok, AmbitiousLemon, let me get one of my spare cans of whoop-ass out... :D

One, I have a degree, just not in computer (BFA in graphic design). I have been on, and working on, computers for about 23 years now.

Two, even at college, I was fixing the computers because I could think things through to a solution and it worked. That is where I started gaining my knowledge of fixing systems, not just working on them.

Three, since I did go to an art college, and didn't know that I wanted to be a tech at the time (we are talking about back in 88 when I started college here) does that make me any less of a tech??? By boss doesn't think so, and she has been doing this for over 10 years now (with the company we are at).

Four, the tech field is highly competative right now. If you don't measure up, you get replaced, pure and simple. I have seen it done at our Boston site many times. The good ones get brought on staff, the crappy ones usually don't last more then two or three weeks.

Four, I have one certification from Apple currently, and I am working on getting the second one. I have the desktop one, and studying for the portables. MSCE classes, tests, and exams cost tons, and wouldn't do me any good as far as advancing my carreer. I am primarily a Mac tech (very few good ones out there) but I also support peecee's (since we have 40 at the site I work at, along with 250 Mac systems).

Five, the people that try to say that non-degreed tech's are not worth anything are usually the ones that are bitter about us getting the better jobs because we have real world experience. Not just a slip of paper saying you spent umpteen thousands on an education, but have no work experience. Sorry, but there are not many fields out there that are willing to bring you on without at least some experience.

I would be interested to see how many tech's that read this actually do have a computer science degree, and how they came to be in the carreer/position they are. I would also like to see how many Mac tech's that read this, also have a CS degree and how many are either self taught or were forced to learn because you couldn't get any of the peecee techs where you were to help you any.

Not bad... almost a six pack :D

good points alphatech and amibitious lemon!

and fun argument

i have worked at autodesk (autocad) and currently have a major silicon valley company and another huge company as private clients...i
have also worked in IT at a hospital, and since then, 12 years, i have seen only one person with a cs degree in a corporate IT department out of hundreds of IT co-workers...btw, he has a cs degree and is a mac tech...but he knows all the theories and how to program pc stuff;)

here is what i have seen since being in IT since 1990 and since being in the working world since the 1970s (i have my own IT business with my wife today)

the biggest group of IT people are self taught

the 2nd biggest group are degreed in electrical engineering, electronic engineering, and mathematics/statistics

the next group of people in IT are liberal arts and business majors

and the 4th group are people who studied the physical or biological sciences

and the 5th group is the group of one person...he is that mac tech with a cs degree

and the 6th group...there is no 6th group, so between now and retirement (next 15 years) i will look for a 6th group so i can have a six pack like you...he he

btw...a friend of mine who worked for parc in silicon valley told me that one of the best engineers there was at nearby hp this young kid without a degree who won some science competition...when i asked here was his name steve...she said yeah, that steve jobs guy...i corrected here and said it was that other steve...steve wozniak:p

and for the pro degree people, steve wozniak went back to college and got a college degree and now makes 1/1,000,000,000,000,000,000 of what he made as an non college degreed co-founder of apple

just imagine if steve wozniak went to college instead of inventing the apple 1...where would we be now...let's thank our lucky stars steve wozniak waited to finish college later

Rower_CPU

Apr 20, 2002, 01:45 PM

Allright, 'Lemon, here goes:

Since I'm another one of the techs here, I'll throw down too.

Me: French major, Spanish minor...graduating this May (is that a 6th group jef? ;) ). No certifications, no "official" training, no letters behind my name.

My job: Technician for a multimedia lab (computers, a/v equipment) that specializes in foreign language education. OS X Server administration, Windows 2K Server administration (when I'm forced to :mad: ). Approximately 100 computers on-site, plus all the VCRs, TVs, Laserdisc Players, printers, etc.

Am I "qualified" for this job? Probably not by your standards, but you have to look at the big picture to see things more clearly.

I've worked in the lab in various positions for about 4 years. I started out as a student assistant who checked videos, etc. out to the students and helped them if they didn't know how to use a program or eject their CD from a Mac. :rolleyes:

I then moved to multimedia poduction in the lab for our federally funded projects (CD-ROM and web design). In this time I taught myself how to administer our brand new OS X Server, since the previous tech was lazy and wanted nothing to do with it, and learning the Mac OS, since that is the platform we use for production. I also was building my own PCs at home, learning hardware and software troubleshooting.

Last summer, the previous tech left for a different job, and the position became open. At first I didn't even consider applying, since I didn't have any certifications or official training. But then some people at work suggested I apply, and after some thought, I did. I beat out the other applicants for several reasons: 1) I knew the labs better than almost anyone else, since I'd been there so long, 2) My self taught experience was sufficient to beat out applicants with degrees from tech schools, 3) I have great people skills and I try hard to be proactive and solve problems ahead of time (rather than sit back and wait for them to happen). Only three for me, I'm a lightweight, I guess.

So, how could this be, 'Lemon? How could I, an undergrad student without a degree to my name, beat out several other applicants with tech degrees?
There's more to being a tech than just your official training and certifications. "Real world" experience, and many other factors come into play.

xjenkins

Apr 22, 2002, 01:09 PM

I noticed at the weekend that micro anvika a major london based mac retailer are selling off their display powerbooks, maybe coincedence (sp?) but why would they do that if there wasn't a replacement soon??

jefhatfield

Apr 22, 2002, 01:18 PM

SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD SIGN!

and from the past posts i have seen here in the last couple of years, retailers sell display models before an new product comes out

tibook is in for an overhaul this year

superdrive, or dual g4, or 800-1,000 mhz sound likely to me

xjenkins

Apr 23, 2002, 12:46 PM

yeah, i thought it was a telling sign, I almost bought one, then i read this thread.......

mcrain

Apr 23, 2002, 01:43 PM

I've got to throw down on the education issue.

I've got an engineering degree followed by a JD. My spouse has a biology degree followed by an MD in less than a month.

Non-degreed computer techs are cashing in on a dot.com euphoria where everyone thought that anything computer related had to generate huge amounts of cash.

I hate to say this, but the whole dot.com bust just goes to show that those with either real talent or those with real education in the tech field will rise to the surface, and those that were "techs without degrees or talent" but getting huge salaries are now submitting their resumes to 100's of companies every day, and trying to convince the hiring manager that a degree isn't all its cracked up to be.

Just because grey haired people were stupid once and thought that computer revolution meant money grows on trees, does NOT mean that you can become a rich computer dot.commer in this day and age.

I will probably never have an IPO that makes me an overnight billionaire, but then again, most people won't, and those that do, either have real talent or a degree.

Sure, you can take your chances hitting the lottery in some tech job somewhere arguing with everyone that your lack of a degree in your field really isn't important, or you can realize that most managers look for education.

Me, I don't want to take that chance. I will just have to keep paying our taxes so there will be plenty of money in the State's coffers to pay for your unemployment benefits when the BS about not needing a degree eventually hits the fan.

One last question... Why would anyone be arguing that the lack of a degree in their chosen field means nothing? It is not the size of the degree, it's the motion of the ocean, or something like that?

Don't get me wrong, my point isn't that EVERYONE without a degree is a talentless hack getting overpaid because of the dot-com boom. NO, my point is that those of you who really are telentless hacks need to either come up with a better argument than I don't need a degree or actually get one.

mcrain

Apr 23, 2002, 01:47 PM

Oh, I forgot to mention. I've done all the computer work for two different firms, including networking and server setups and maintenance. Does that mean I'm some sort of computer tech expert? If so, then I've got ocean front property to sell you.

The tech's our firms hired to set things up and "fix" problems with the computers certainly didn't seem to know much more than me. And, they were the "experts."

AlphaTech

Apr 23, 2002, 01:55 PM

mcrain, I don't have a techie degree, but I do have a BFA in graphic design. I worked to get into the tech field, and actually got hired as a dedicated tech in Jan of 2000. When did the dot com thing go bust??? I never really tracked it too much.

I haven't used my resume since I started working where I am now. I don't even remember where mine is. I hope to never need it again, and considering how I am doing in my carreer and how well the company that I work for is doing, I won't need it. I am seriously looking forward to being here long enough to retire. The benefits here rock, as do the people (except for the few that don't have two brain cells to rub together).

At the start of 2001 I was made the lead tech for the site I work out of. Granted, there are not many tech's here, but having the title and responsibility to go along with it is something. There are also days where I work long hours, mostly by choice, but sometimes out of necessity. When you need to have a system configure and delivered, or fixed and back on a desk for the following morning, you work late. Or when you get a panic call just as you are about to leave, you stay and make things right.

Ok, back to the TiBooks.... I am starting to put out feelers to see if anyone is interested in mine or not. It's a PowerBook G4 500MHz with 1GB of RAM, dvd-rom drive and a 20GB drive (I have a 60GB installed, but want to keep that). If I get offered enough, I could be persuaded to leave the 60GB drive inside the laptop, but the buyer needs to make the offer sweet.

jefhatfield

Apr 23, 2002, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by mcrain
I've got to throw down on the education issue.

I've got an engineering degree followed by a JD. My spouse has a biology degree followed by an MD in less than a month.

Non-degreed computer techs are cashing in on a dot.com euphoria where everyone thought that anything computer related had to generate huge amounts of cash.

I hate to say this, but the whole dot.com bust just goes to show that those with either real talent or those with real education in the tech field will rise to the surface, and those that were "techs without degrees or talent" but getting huge salaries are now submitting their resumes to 100's of companies every day, and trying to convince the hiring manager that a degree isn't all its cracked up to be.

Just because grey haired people were stupid once and thought that computer revolution meant money grows on trees, does NOT mean that you can become a rich computer dot.commer in this day and age.

I will probably never have an IPO that makes me an overnight billionaire, but then again, most people won't, and those that do, either have real talent or a degree.

Sure, you can take your chances hitting the lottery in some tech job somewhere arguing with everyone that your lack of a degree in your field really isn't important, or you can realize that most managers look for education.

Me, I don't want to take that chance. I will just have to keep paying our taxes so there will be plenty of money in the State's coffers to pay for your unemployment benefits when the BS about not needing a degree eventually hits the fan.

One last question... Why would anyone be arguing that the lack of a degree in their chosen field means nothing? It is not the size of the degree, it's the motion of the ocean, or something like that?

Don't get me wrong, my point isn't that EVERYONE without a degree is a talentless hack getting overpaid because of the dot-com boom. NO, my point is that those of you who really are telentless hacks need to either come up with a better argument than I don't need a degree or actually get one.

what you say about IT people after the dot.com boom is the most untrue thing i have ever heard...at least for silicon valley...so what i am about to say may not disagree with where you live and your local job markets and what you have seen

so here it goes:

mcrain, i have two degrees and a technical certification, and working on another degree and certification, but from what i have seen where i live, silicon valley, talent is the only measure that is respected

you are a lawyer, so a degree and being a member of the bar is necessary in most states to practice law...but to start a high tech company or be a techie, you need talent and in some cases, a good dose of luck

look at the major employers in silicon valley and their ceo's or major founder(s) w/o degrees...apple, microsoft, oracle, dell, and sun

i am only talking techie related jobs and work culture in silicon valley but elsewhere, IT people may need pieces of paper to move up in the field...but when you are at the heart and soul of the world's third or fourth largest industies (behind transportation, tourism, and agriculture) i would rather have talent run the show instead of pieces of paper...silicon valley is deadly brutal that way...it is not what the hell you have on the wall, it is what the hell can you do for me today...and they could care less what you did for them yesterday or what you did for anybody else...quarterly reports make this industry look like survivor

ps - besides the pieces of paper i have, i am also a teacher, so i am certainly not anti-education but having been in the working world 25 years, it does not take a rocket scientists to realize the difference between education and the working world:D

mcrain

Apr 23, 2002, 02:15 PM

So both of you support my contention. Unless you have REAL talent, i.e. ability to pump out a groundbreaking piece of software or major hardware maintenance, you are SOL. (SOL=***** out of luck, if you need a translation)

To everyone who isn't able to pump out something major, you're going to get booted off the island, and unless you have a degree in something, you're flipping burgers.

Sounds like exactly what I was trying to say.

How many talentless hacks who used to have very high paying jobs and stock options have you seen fall by the wayside in Silicon valley? I'd bet it is a lot.

AlphaTech

Apr 23, 2002, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by mcrain
To everyone who isn't able to pump out something major, you're going to get booted off the island, and unless you have a degree in something, you're flipping burgers.

That applies to just about ANY field. If you can't do the job well enough, you get the ax/boot. The only field that it doesn't apply to is truck driving where all you need is an a$$ that you can sit on for hours at a time and a license.

jefhatfield

Apr 23, 2002, 02:30 PM

the people with degrees and certifications got fired in silicon valley

here's what happened

if you don't have a degree but you work in silicon valley in the IT field, it simply means you have talent

so when there was a large grow spurt, all the geniuses with talent were already running the companies but needed manpower and they simply hired people with degrees and certifications because they had no time to screen anybody in the fast growth period...a piece of paper was a quick measure for hiring purposes

so when things hit the fan in the valley, either the talent w/o degrees in IT had to go or the unproven techs with pieces of paper

so first the mbas were dumped followed by all the techies with degrees and certs...the ones who were there before the boom, the original techies with talent...well, they remained and are still there

i have worked this IT field here for three years and i have never met a non-degreed techie out of work...there are plenty of techies with degrees and certs who are out of work and the only reason they got the paper was because mom told them too in many cases

someone with extreme talent like jobs, woz, gates, allen, dell, and "that oracle guy" had no time to spend their late teens and early 20s sitting in a classroom...they were out changing the world and many unknown but equally talented non-degreed techies run many of the companies here and work the better jobs in the silicon valley

we are not like any other industry and that is where the outsiders get us wrong...it is like the football fans who wonder how such a gay, effeminate city like san francisco could have such a black and blue five time super bowl team

unless you grew up in silicon valley or san francisco, you will never understand valley IT or the 49ers

...i will admit, i do not know jack about where you live and if i came to chicago, i would prabably accidentaly walk into the wrong neighborhood:D

i do like chicago hope and e.r. ans sammy sosa can hit consistently

Rower_CPU

Apr 23, 2002, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by mcrain
So both of you support my contention. Unless you have REAL talent, i.e. ability to pump out a groundbreaking piece of software or major hardware maintenance, you are SOL. (SOL=***** out of luck, if you need a translation)

To everyone who isn't able to pump out something major, you're going to get booted off the island, and unless you have a degree in something, you're flipping burgers.

Sounds like exactly what I was trying to say.

How many talentless hacks who used to have very high paying jobs and stock options have you seen fall by the wayside in Silicon valley? I'd bet it is a lot.

How about this situation:
You're a tech. You have mountains of real-world experience. You're working for a company/school/whatver. They don't have funding to sponsor your certifications, and even if they did, they wouldn't want to pay it, because with those new qualifications they would have to pay you more, or you would leave to go work where they did pay you more.

It benefits MANY enterprises to have so-called "uncertified" techs (talented and smart though they may be) that they can pay less than someone with a bunch of letters after their name.

Me, I'm getting my Bachelors in French with a minor in Spanish this May. What does that have to do with my job as a tech. Absolutely nothing. But, I'll still be able to get a raise because I have a piece of paper from my university saying I'm a smart person...

What will a friggin' CS degree do for a computer tech? Not a whole hell of a lot, in my opinion.

Keep collecting taxes and leave the tech work to us. ;)

jefhatfield

Apr 23, 2002, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by Rower_CPU

What will a friggin' CS degree do for a computer tech? Not a whole hell of a lot, in my opinion.

Keep collecting taxes and leave the tech work to us. ;)

here is an alternate theory...there exists a techie gene and we are who we are and will always be talented techs who are almost always as equally untalented getting dates

so you lawyers could pick up the chicks while we techs salivate over motherboards

how's that?

being a techie is an orientation and if it is not you, you could never fake it with a cs degree or technical certification

mcrain

Apr 23, 2002, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by jefhatfield
we are not like any other industry and that is where the outsiders get us wrong...it is like the football fans who wonder how such a gay, effeminate city like san francisco could have such a black and blue five time super bowl team

unless you grew up in silicon valley or san francisco, you will never understand valley IT or the 49ers

...i will admit, i do not know jack about where you live and if i came to chicago, i would prabably accidentaly walk into the wrong neighborhood:D

i do like chicago hope and e.r. ans sammy sosa can hit consistently

How many members of the 49ers are from the San Fransisco area originally? How many were drafted and then moved there? The 49ers are no different than any other professional football team, they are as easy to understand as any other football team regardless of location.

As for Chicago, it's a pretty interesting town, but no worse than Oakland as for being "tough."

Sosa, he's a baseball player. Bonds may have talent, but he's a schmuck.

mcrain

Apr 23, 2002, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by jefhatfield
here is an alternate theory...there exists a techie gene and we are who we are and will always be talented techs who are almost always as equally untalented getting dates

so you lawyers could pick up the chicks while we techs salivate over motherboards

how's that?

being a techie is an orientation and if it is not you, you could never fake it with a cs degree or technical certification

Quite possibly the best ever explanation!! Bravo!! LMAO.

Rower_CPU

Apr 23, 2002, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by jefhatfield

here is an alternate theory...there exists a techie gene and we are who we are and will always be talented techs who are almost always as equally untalented getting dates

so you lawyers could pick up the chicks while we techs salivate over motherboards

how's that?

being a techie is an orientation and if it is not you, you could never fake it with a cs degree or technical certification

Sounds good to me. But wait...I have a girlfreind...does that make me a bad tech? :D

AlphaTech

Apr 23, 2002, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by Rower_CPU

Sounds good to me. But wait...I have a girlfreind...does that make me a bad tech? :D

mmmmm... probably not, just distracted at times... not that I am saying that would be a bad thing.... :D... I could use some of that myself.

Xapplimatic

Apr 23, 2002, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by cb911
if they are going to release the G5 at NY then it makes sense to get the TiBook out there as soon as possible, so there isn't a double up of releases at NY

And a double up would be a problem? Apple typically makes multiple announcements at major shows and Apple followers prefer it! Why just announce one new computer when you can announce two? Or a new computer, a new digital device and a new OS upgrade? Apple typically stacks accouncements. It's rare when they only have one improved product to announce.. in fact, I can't think of a single point in the last year where they had less than three new or improved products to announce at a show.

As far as Superdrive in TiBook.. I find it a highly practical idea for those who have use for it. For one thing, a DVD is not just for editing movie clips! A DVD makes an excellent mobile solution for backing up your critical files! Nothing wrong with having more choices! I know Apple has an in with Pioneer, and Hollywood, and a major woody for the latest and greatest in DVD and video.. they will be the most likely to get a DVD+RW into a portable. It really isn't a question of why or if. It's just a question of when. Maybe not right now, but it will happen. As far as news of the existance of such a thing being all over the media, I would be quick to point out that Apple has had many exlcusives in the past where Apple was first to announce the use of a product before the parent company even squeaked about it. Case in point Nvidia's GeForce 4 in the latest Power Macs.. Apple was first. And it wasn't the first time.

SPG

Apr 23, 2002, 05:35 PM

Wellllll, right. Double ups do seem to be a problem to Apple these days. The iMac was introed with no mention of the towers untila few weeks later to give the iMac some breathing room. The iPod was its own event.
A major announcement like G5 would also have other updates, minor speed bumps, maybe a 10.1.__ release, but all new G5 and a laptop release that didn't use the G5? Nope, not gonna happen. The Laptop will come first if it's not G5, then a the next MW, the G5.

re: Educational degrees... The tech field isn't the only one that doesn't look as closely at them, the entertainment field (not just actors but cameramen to editors to producers) doesn't require a degree to get an interview. The only times I needed a resume in the past ten years was as a formality, and even then it either wasn't even read or if it was, it was just used as a reference to see how to spell my name. Ability and contacts is how the real world works, unfortunately for many of us.
Also as jefhatfield pointed out he is in California which is notoriously blind to degres especially compared to the more conservative east coast where everyone needs to quantified, not neccesarily qualified.

Rower_CPU

Apr 23, 2002, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by SPG
Wellllll, right. Double ups do seem to be a problem to Apple these days. The iMac was introed with no mention of the towers untila few weeks later to give the iMac some breathing room. The iPod was its own event.
A major announcement like G5 would also have other updates, minor speed bumps, maybe a 10.1.__ release, but all new G5 and a laptop release that didn't use the G5? Nope, not gonna happen. The Laptop will come first if it's not G5, then a the next MW, the G5.

Apple has actually been a little schizophrenic about product announcements.

MWNY '01 - Quicksilvers, and iMac update (double release)
MWSF '02 - the new iMac needed to have sole ownership of the spotlight, speed bumped QS came later
MWTokyo '02 - Updated iPod, new Cinema HD, Bluetooth capapbilites; technically a multiple release (though not of the major hardware)

As usual, if you try to discern a logical pattern in Apple's release scheme you're going to wind up with a headache.

AmbitiousLemon

Apr 23, 2002, 05:57 PM

on the note of techs. i think all of you are missing the point entirely (perhaps this is why you werent abel to get a degree). i was saying the reason techs dont have degrees isnt because a degree is useless (as so many of you seem to believe) but that it is instead due to the fact people with degrees get better jobs. a tech job is pretty low on the ladder for someone with a technical degree. people with tech degrees are doing bigger and better things with their degrees than some tech position.

does this mean that people with degrees would do a poor jb as a tech, i certainly dont think so. ive found that most techs rarely know more than i do, whereas my firends with degrees in cs ee and what not know a whole lot more than i do and will always be able to solve my problems. ive found that tech generally cant do any better than i can do. saying that a degreed person could not do a better job or (as many of you have said) culd not perform the job at all, is just plain ignorance. thats like saying a person with a phd could not work a job at mcdonalds.

most competent techs i know are college kids who quickly excel in the tech industry but take off to a better job once they get that degree. i find it shocking so many of you are so hostile toward people with degrees, frankly i think this is plain and simple jealousy. you guys need to get of this, if you are not smart enough to get that degree then accept that some people have skills that you dont have and get over it. if you are smart enough and you are still that bitter, maybe you need to ask yourself why you havent gotten that degree you are so jealous of. you guys sound like a bunch of high school kids who proclaim that all the kids who get "A"s are losers and will never succeed in life, and are simply not cool like the kids who fail their classes. serisously, for a bunch of old timers you guys sure are immature.

AmbitiousLemon

Apr 23, 2002, 06:04 PM

Originally posted by Rower_CPU

Apple has actually been a little schizophrenic about product announcements.

MWNY '01 - Quicksilvers, and iMac update (double release)
MWSF '02 - the new iMac needed to have sole ownership of the spotlight, speed bumped QS came later
MWTokyo '02 - Updated iPod, new Cinema HD, Bluetooth capapbilites; technically a multiple release (though not of the major hardware)

As usual, if you try to discern a logical pattern in Apple's release scheme you're going to wind up with a headache.

i think the releases are less orchestrated than many of us (including myself) often believe. the quicksilvers were probably not released because they were not ready (of course the imacs also were nto ready but apple had to wheel out the big guns after all the hype they generated). it has been widely rumored that the powermac update was so quiet because apple had planned to release powermacs with the even more rumored new motherboards, but had problems delivering the whole product. if these rumors are true then apple's releases more likley represent what they have available. i think we can all imagine steve riding everyone's asses trying to get everything ready in time. and all the MW announcements that dont ship for a few months are likely a sympton of these release strategy. there are some holes in my reasoning here but i think you guys get my general point.

IndyGopher

Apr 23, 2002, 08:06 PM

jefhatfield

Apr 23, 2002, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
on the note of techs. i think all of you are missing the point entirely (perhaps this is why you werent abel to get a degree). i was saying the reason techs dont have degrees isnt because a degree is useless (as so many of you seem to believe) but that it is instead due to the fact people with degrees get better jobs. a tech job is pretty low on the ladder for someone with a technical degree. people with tech degrees are doing bigger and better things with their degrees than some tech position.

does this mean that people with degrees would do a poor jb as a tech, i certainly dont think so. ive found that most techs rarely know more than i do, whereas my firends with degrees in cs ee and what not know a whole lot more than i do and will always be able to solve my problems. ive found that tech generally cant do any better than i can do. saying that a degreed person could not do a better job or (as many of you have said) culd not perform the job at all, is just plain ignorance. thats like saying a person with a phd could not work a job at mcdonalds.

most competent techs i know are college kids who quickly excel in the tech industry but take off to a better job once they get that degree. i find it shocking so many of you are so hostile toward people with degrees, frankly i think this is plain and simple jealousy. you guys need to get of this, if you are not smart enough to get that degree then accept that some people have skills that you dont have and get over it. if you are smart enough and you are still that bitter, maybe you need to ask yourself why you havent gotten that degree you are so jealous of. you guys sound like a bunch of high school kids who proclaim that all the kids who get "A"s are losers and will never succeed in life, and are simply not cool like the kids who fail their classes. serisously, for a bunch of old timers you guys sure are immature.

from what you say, i could tell you have not grown up in silicon valley or nearby like i did

the three people knocking degrees, all of us have a bachelor's degrees or more (unlike you) and two of us have certifications on top of those degree or degrees

i hate to spout it again... two degrees, one certification, one more degree and certification on the way, cs teacher, cs tutor in the college environment, three years in the field, and i am pro-education, for god's sake

but this field of IT in the san jose and surrounding areas is about talent and talent only and the ones who excel and get to the top do not have degrees

having a degree will not be bad for the field and a degreed person will reach the middle of the ladder, but like i said before, talent is it

now, i am almost about to blow my cover...my friend started sun microsystems (look it up) and i was a friend of david packard...and yes, for those of you who know about this stuff in san jose, i live near david packard's daughter and big sur, california and the whole region of locals are intimitately tied in with the valley and david packard, steve jobs, woz, ellison ,etc..

i would love to see you and mcrain tell me your theories of silicon valley in front of mr. packard if he were still alive

i mean, jesus christ, come on... do i try and speculate about where you two grew up without having been raised there...just because you may have come to northern california on vacation or atented school here does not make you a native

only a native could even know what i am talking about

if you want to push degrees, go into law, medicine, or accounting where a lawyer, physician, or cpa needs a degree to be in their field

...but unless you work the IT field and get paid, and live here, and most likely were raised here, your arguments are as ridiculous as me trying to solve the middle east crisis in five hundred words

again, when was the last time i tried to tell you what your hometown and area were like?

as forrest gump said, "stupid is as stupid does"

the more i hear, the more i can see you need to visit the area and just get a clue

:rolleyes:

AmbitiousLemon

Apr 23, 2002, 08:39 PM

indy thanks for pointing out that i made quite a few typos, that really was helpful. typing on an unfamiliar keyboard after being awake for over 50 hours sometimes mean i hit the wrong keys. so sorry.

and jef before you blow your top try reading my post. ill say it again simply so as not to tax your attention span.

the reason techs generally do not have technical degrees is because the people who have technical degrees get far better jobs than any tech position.

its quite simple actually. and if you know anyone who has received a technical degree forma reputable school you know that they are offered very lucrative job positions well before they graduate simple because educated people are so hard to come by.

and as far as degrees go, i think this might be another source fo confusion. im talking about real degrees from reputable schools. not ms certification or a degree from some "school" that advertises during day time tv. im talking about tier one schools. MIT, Caltech, Harvard, Stanford, etc. i dont consider a cs degree from cal state who cares worth much, and would agree that such a degree does the person littel good over someone who has has no such degree.

jef you are cleraly talking out of your ass. try reading my posts before you spout off about who you (may or may not) know. i never suggested that talent was not an integral part of teh equation, but people who do not have a knack for technology do not generally receive technical degrees from prestigious universities. you name a small handful of people who have been successful in technology but you seem to forget about all the people out there struggling with just as much talent that will never become the next bill gates. you also seem to forget about all the intelligient, talented, uneducated people who are stuck working for companies started by these guys you name who are unable to move up for the simple reason that they do not have a college education. hows that for irony?

but again my point was not that you must have a degree to work as a tech. i have stated this explicitly many times, but you seem to keep ignoring the fact. my point is that the people who do get degrees arent failing at tech positions but are instead achieving at higher levels. people with technical degrees from prestigious universities are being recruited very actively and if you are not aware of this then i would say you are out of touch with the industry.

Rower_CPU

Apr 23, 2002, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
i dont consider a cs degree from cal state who cares worth much, and would agree that such a degree does the person littel good over someone who has has no such degree.

And I don't consider the opinion of someone from UC Berkeley worth very much.

Save your pompous opinions about the CSU system for someone who cares.

jefhatfield

Apr 23, 2002, 08:50 PM

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon

but again my point was not that you must have a degree to work as a tech. i have stated this explicitly many times, but you seem to keep ignoring the fact. my point is that the people who do get degrees arent failing at tech positions but are instead achieving at higher levels. people with technical degrees from prestigious universities are being recruited very actively and if you are not aware of this then i would say you are out of touch with the industry.

ok, that is fair...so we don't disagree on the above quote

but the "handful" of people i mentioned are the kings of silicon valley...name a degreed tech/founder on the same level that i mentioned

btw...since you are such an expert of my life and my town/region...where were you raised?

and how many years do you have in the working world in general and in the IT field? after being in the real world, then tell me that i am talking out of my ass

i would love to put in several lenghty essays on your hometown and region and have you laugh your ass off;)

to be fair, tell me where you were raised and in all fairness, i will put my ass on a limb and speculate

ps - i am not trying to flame you since you are definitely one of my favorites, even though i could tell you are a teen or in your 20s...but i don't question your smarts, though...so don't take my statements as an attack

AlphaTech

Apr 23, 2002, 09:21 PM

Good post jefhatfield....

AmbitiousLemon, how do you explain that my manager (would be a director in title if she was a man) doesn't have a cs degree??? She did get the m$ certifications years ago, but even she says that they are not worth much of anything in today's IT/IS field. She doesn't bring in tech's because they have degrees or certifications. She goes by actual real world experience. If the tech she brings in isn't able to do the job, he/she is gone in short order.

I had a hand in her hiring the current lead pc tech for our Boston site (I work out of Needham, MA). He doesn't have a bachelor's degree, nor does he have any of the m$ certifications. What he does have is real world experience and the ability to get the job done. All of us (especially those of us that are on staff, or want to be on staff) do whatever it takes to get the job done.

While it is true that you have to have a mind that can handle the kinds of issues that computers present, and how to troubleshoot them, you don't have to be a superbeing to be a well respected, non-degreed tech.

As for people with degrees in CS, or whatever you are referring to, being in higher positions, not true. All the people that I know with cs degrees are developing software, or supporting one application (typically the one they wrote or the company that they work at created). True tech's support multiple applications on the systems (and the better tech's support multiple platforms such as Mac and pc :D ). I would much rather be a tech where I can leave work at the office then a software developer/programmer that takes their stuff home.

Oh yeah, and I don't have a degree from one of your 'tier one' schools. But I am a very successful tech. :p As I have stated before, I do have a BFA in graphic design, as well as my first Apple certification (desktop), and working towards getting the porable certification as well.

AmbitiousLemon

Apr 23, 2002, 09:35 PM

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
And I don't consider the opinion of someone from UC Berkeley worth very much.

hey rower sorry if i disparaged your school or something, didnt mean much by it. i just wanted to make it clear that i was referring to universities that are among the world leaders. the california public universities are quite simply and unarguably the best in the country so i wasnt trying to say that the cal state schools were crap or anything. i just meant to say that they are not in the same category as the schools i was referring to. i will mention though that UC berkeley's academic standings have been in the top 3 for many years and are currently at number 2 in the country (second to harvard) so you dont need to insult me [usnewsandworldreports].

jef, good to see you have calmed down a bit. as i havent slept in some 60 hours ill try to keep it short [as the typos as indy pointed out pile up if i try to think too much on this little sleep]. silicon valley is not the center of the universe. i never once mentioned silicon valley so id ont see why you are so hung up on it. you seem to agree with me [according to your last post] but seem caught up on the fact that i didnt grow up in northern california. silicon valley actually has very little to do with what i am discussing as the computer industry is not alone in the high tech field. [o and since you asked i grew up in huntington beach, ca]. people i know who are being or have been recruited are not only being recruited by computer companies but by the government, aerospace, biotech, and many other industries that require advanced degrees in science. the computer industry is just another cog in the wheel and silicon valley is only a tiny part of teh bigger picture. but again my point was that people with advanced degrees are being recruited into other positions that are much better than any tech job. this is why techs dont generally have degrees in science, it is not that degrees somehow make someone a bad tech as many of you were previously stating. so jef i would encourage you to look beyong your own small part of teh world and realize that there are other things going on outside northern california.

jefhatfield

Apr 23, 2002, 09:36 PM

the software side techies do often have degrees more often than not...and they are often techie degrees

the hardware side techies often do not have techie degrees or certifications...but there are those hardware side techies who have non cs degrees

the cs degree tends towards the developers more than the on site techs and network admins

and actually both the software and hardware side need each other...but there is a real rivalry...but it is friendly in silicon valley

thank god for all non degreed and degreed techs...the IT field needs us all and i am glad that we are all in this field, or will be in this field, together

also the cal state and uc systems are both very good, and certainly both acceptable for the IT field...go mustangs...go bears...he he

peace,

jefrhatfield;)

AmbitiousLemon

Apr 23, 2002, 09:46 PM

hm. i think we are all talking about very different things. reading alpha's posts makes that pretty clear. im talking about teh very high end while you guys seem to be thinking much more narrowly. how many times do i have to say im not saying a tech needs a degree? will you people get over your i know so and so and he/she doenst have a degree crap? my posts are no longer than yours so please actually read them before commenting on them. you will notice that i am talking about schools and positions that are unrelated to what you are talking about. and this is my point. these areas are where your degreed people are going. they are going here because the pay is better and the work is more interesting [to them] not because they cant cut it in your field. as i said before making such a claim is like saying an person with a degree couldnt work at mcdonalds. its not that they cant its simply that they are moving toward greener pastures. honestly i think most of you are too close to the issue. you are illiciting emotional responses that undermine your thinking.

AlphaTech

Apr 23, 2002, 09:54 PM

AmbitiousLemon, get some sleep, then think about what you are saying before you type. Also, try using at least something close to grammer that my 7-1/2 year old niece knows about (and uses).

When you refer to tech's, people (generally) think of the people that maintain/repair their systems. I hope you are not talking about us. Yes, PROGRAMMERS, do need degree's but they are NOT considered to be 'techs'. Hardware developers are also NOT considered techs. Server admins, desktop support, people in the IT/IS field ARE considered techs... get your terms correct next time.

Oh, and GET SOME SLEEP before you post again.

buffsldr

Apr 23, 2002, 10:00 PM

Why so personal? Can you all try to keep your posts on point without resorting to personal attacks. Not cool.

AmbitiousLemon

Apr 23, 2002, 10:09 PM

ok this is my last post, gonna try to grab a couple hours sleep. all this talk about my grammer is worrying me as i think im too far gone to notice it.

but one quick note to alpha, although my posts might seem a bit rambling and grammatically challenged i hope you can still see i am not talking about the it/is fields but looking at all areas in which science majors go.

as this conversation is getting as stale as my mind i think ill catch a lil shut eye now.

jefhatfield

Apr 23, 2002, 10:39 PM

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
ok this is my last post, gonna try to grab a couple hours sleep. all this talk about my grammer is worrying me as i think im too far gone to notice it.

but one quick note to alpha, although my posts might seem a bit rambling and grammatically challenged i hope you can still see i am not talking about the it/is fields but looking at all areas in which science majors go.

as this conversation is getting as stale as my mind i think ill catch a lil shut eye now.

sorry, ambitiouslemon, i thought we were talking IT/IS 9i jumped in mid stream)...now if we are talking high technology in general...biotech, aerospace, engineering, architecture, etc... then i would agree that degrees are needed in most cases i could think of

but please come visit san jose before you call it small or insignificant...there are 2600+ high tech companies in the region and apple, oracle, hp, sun, and many others are based here while dell, ibm, and microsoft have a major presence here so silicon valley is not a narrow view...not in IT/IS but in the general picture of science in general, sure, we are a small cog in a big wheel

these arguments are not fair mostly because it is three degreed IT/IS people in the field against one college student...i admit, when i was a college student working toward my ba twenty years ago, i thought i had it all figured out, too

and that is probably normal...actually, i would trade in my old body and 40 years of wisdom for being an idealistic teen/21 year old like you and the young generation today will have to carry the torch when us baby boomers retire and pass on

don't take what i am saying as a personal attack, which would be impossible anyway, since i do not know you personally...for all i know, you could be the world weary larry ellison joining here for a voyeruristic ride:p

eyelikeart

Apr 23, 2002, 11:01 PM

I don't care what anyone says...

I think one of the best things a person can do for themselves is to get an education....whether it be formal or not...

but in my experience as a graphic artist...the best education I've received is real world experience...actually working in the field and seeing what really goes on as opposed to textbook study...

I don't think education warrants a person's natural intelligence...and while it can have a significance on their career...there are some very well known exceptions (as pointed out by jefhatfield)...

my big wake-up call to this is the fact that I'm returning to college after having dropped out 4 years ago...sure I have a meager Associate's Degree in Graphic Design...nothing at all in tech...but still...I do have somewhat of a college degree...

but I've also interned for an NBC affiliate doing news graphics...I've done a ton of contract work for design firms locally...plus I'm the guy all of my Mac friends call whenever they have a problem with their systems...and in every attempt I've been successful and have learned something...I even call upon the help of people I know with much more knowledge than I (Alpha u reading this?? ;))...

would I consider myself tech-material...probably not...do I care? not really...

what I do I do for me...and that's what's most important...I want to become Apple Certified for me...not so I can qualify to be "high tech material" or whatever it's been called here...

I often wish I were one of those who could shun all formal forms of education just because I have a vision and that "gift" that the silicon valley heros seem to possess...

this is getting too damned long...so I'll stop it here...but I shall be back...he he he ;)

MacAztec

Apr 23, 2002, 11:38 PM

Rower_CPU

Apr 23, 2002, 11:41 PM

Originally posted by MacAztec

Bah...you are wrong!

I went to MWSF 01 and all they had was L3 Cache, 733 MHZ g4, G4 Ti Powerbooks, but NO quicksilvers!

I didn't say anything about what they released at MWSF '01...but you provide another example of how unpredictable Apple can be.

MacAztec

Apr 23, 2002, 11:47 PM

My bad man...

I thought you said MWSF '01, but you really said MWNY '01. Hehe,

I believe that MWSF 01 has been the greatest MacWorld in the past 3 years. This years SF was horrible. Everyone knew what was going to be released, and it was all over the internet! Even before we got there, there were signs everywhere with pics of the new iMac from Apple.

WHen I went in 01, they release the new Powerbook, Superdrive, L3 Cache, and I believe the Cinema Display? It was so cool! I remember that some guy that was demonstrating the Powerbook saw that I was so interested, he gave me a T-Shirt!

Another super duper cool thing that I swear I aint lyin about.

My dad had been going since like 96, and knew the place very well. He told me to stay here (next to the stage) and said he was going to the bathroom.

He came back and told me that one his way up the escalator, steve jobs was talking to someone on the rail. I didn't have much knowledge of steve jobs, but I noticed my dad was out of breath. I think he was excited :D!

Best macworld ever!

IndyGopher

Apr 24, 2002, 12:01 AM

All I can say about the last couple pages of this thread is that I sure wish vBulletin had a usenet-style twit filter.

Dunepilot

Apr 24, 2002, 07:53 AM

Talk about the most irritating thread I've ever read.

But it can happen when people get onto something they're passionate about.

mcrain

Apr 24, 2002, 09:40 AM

Originally posted by AlphaTech
When you refer to tech's, people (generally) think of the people that maintain/repair their systems. I hope you are not talking about us. Yes, PROGRAMMERS, do need degree's but they are NOT considered to be 'techs'. Hardware developers are also NOT considered techs. Server admins, desktop support, people in the IT/IS field ARE considered techs... get your terms correct next time.

Ok, I've kept quiet for a while, but I have to address one point. My earlier point was that anyone who wanted to really make it in the computer industry either had to have real talent or vision (a la the people who founded apple, hewlett packard, even W$) or an education.

I then get attacked by "techs" who don't have degrees with the argument that in the Silicon Valley most successful types like the people who founded apple, hewlett packard, et. al don't have degrees. Their argument implies that I was arguing that in order to be a successful "tech" you must have a degree.

Let me clarify. (edit--> I don't mean to assume I know everything about Silicon Valley, only the following appears to be factually correct based upon everyone's arguments so far) In order to be successful in the computer industry, and have upward mobility into positions of management, ownership, or major development, you have to have either real talent/vision (e.g. Jobs, Woz) or an education.

Now, if you want to "maintain/repair systems" or work in the "server admins, desktop support, in IT/IS" as a tech, most likely you don't need a degree, all you need is the ability to actually keep the computers up and running.

Most support staff in most fields don't require degrees, but rather practical skills. A secretary with a degree isn't worth crap compared to a secretary who can type and take dictation.

jefhatfield

Apr 24, 2002, 09:45 AM

thanks, i did get a little off topic with the education thing and people's attempts to tell me what the industry and region of my birth was all about because they read an article or watched a low budget tv movie ...only to find out i attacked someone thinking this was the case when it wasn't so i am the idiot who took my adversary here on this thread out of context...so sorry for that, mr citrus

and to mr taxman, he he, all three techs who attacked you have 4 year degrees and two are certified on top of that

but our speculations about apple products here, while we do not work at apple (most of us), seem to keep me going here

the tibook and ibook are the two products that i am interested in, but since this thread has been up so long, we already know that there are not "new tibooks in a few weeks";)

the thread to be changed to "new tibooks when apple feels good and ready"