Apple store salesmen - The new "used car salesmen"? [Archive]

saltyzoo

Oct 31, 2007, 08:37 AM

The story of my mac mini purchase yesterday...

I hate pressure sales, and I really dislike "smarmy", semi-honest, bait-and-switch, used car sales tactics.

I'm a recent convert to mac, running on my MBP for about a month now and am loving it completely. My wife's windows laptop of 5 years age finally gave up the ghost yesterday and I talked her into switching to mac so we went down to the local apple store to pick one up....

We thoroughly browsed all the offerings and I carefully explained the pros and cons of each to my wife so she could decide which machine was best for her (She's a writer and spends 10 to 12 hours a day on her computer). I have to be fair and give credit where it's due. As we were browsing, the sales associates asked if we needed help, but never butted in when we said no. Big points for that.

However, when she decided on a mac mini 1.8Ghz and I let a salesman know we were ready to make a purchase things went downhill fast.

First off, I can look past the fact that they try to sell you every service and piece of software in the store. That's annoying, but it's just good sales practice. But, when he asks me if I want to upgrade the 1.8 to get the better super drive I was intrigued, thinking, by the way he phrased the question and how clearly I stated which model I wanted at the very beginning, that he meant I could add the superdrive onto the 1.8 version mini. But alas, no, when I asked how much this "superdrive upgrade" would cost, I was informed it was only $200 more and included a larger hard drive and a faster processor as well. Grrr. Don't pull that crap, just point out the benefits of the other version and be done with it, don't try to "trick" me into it and don't raise my hopes of something that doesn't really exist. Can you say "backfire"? Now I was doubting whether I should purchase anything from the guy at all.

Anyway, we go through the process (I actually said to my wife while waiting for him to go get the mini that gee, I miss Best Buy where I can just pick up the product I want and buy it and leave) and I ask whether Leopard is installed or not. He says, "no, this one was in stock prior to the release of Leopard and we aren't installing it on prior stock - But, it includes a copy of Leopard in the box so you can run either OS you want, I recommend you upgrade to Leopard before even using it."

So, I get home and open up the box. Tiger is installed as he said. But no Leopard disk. Then I realized, if the box was sealed and it came in to the store pre-Leopard release, how could they possibly put Leopard in the box? I'm struggling to see how his statement wasn't an outright lie. Also, keep in mind that every computer we demo'd had Leopard on it. Can you say "bait-and-switch"?

Anyway, I'm still a fan of the products, and I'll think twice about buying from the store again (online is for me apparently), but I feel like I was buying a used car not a nice computer.

PS> The computer is running great and she's loving it so far, though on Tiger not Leopard...

Morphos

Oct 31, 2007, 08:46 AM

There's good reason that no one's responded to this yet. Beyond the static in the middle of your paragraphs'o'rediculousness, you levee charges of your own misunderstanding at Apple.

I know hearing others use the phrase 'bait-n-switch' sounds so kewl that you want to throw it around too, fit in with the hip crowd. Pick up a book instead. Or try using the intarweb for searching.

Wikipedia sez, "Bait and switch is a form of fraud in which the fraudster lures in customers by advertising a product or service at an unprofitably low price, then reveals to potential customers that the advertised good is not available but that a substitute is."

In order for your rambling incoherent accusation to be correct, you would have had to been LURED to the Apple store with sugary promises of a bumper crop of cheap, cheap computers. Sound unbelievable? So does your sob story.

I really want to be a good, shining example of the beckoning world of apple products, but your story makes me want to stab my eyes out.

saltyzoo

Oct 31, 2007, 08:49 AM

Feverish Flux

Oct 31, 2007, 09:01 AM

What is wrong with you? Seriously.

I think this is more case of you being on the ultra-defensive versus anyone trying to get over on you. Apple Store employees are not on commission - what does he have to gain by selling you the better machine? More likely, he was making sure that you knew that the base machine has a combo drive and you wouldn't be able to burn DVD's.

As far as Leopard goes, my nephew informs me that they slit open the boxes and drop in a DVD prior to launch date, then tape the boxes back up. Most likely in the shuffle, they missed your particular box, which is unfortunate, but no one was trying to get over on you.

Aside form them not putting the disc in (an easy mistake), you're the one being unreasonable.

No one "baited and switched" you. No one has anything to gain by doing so.

koobcamuk

Oct 31, 2007, 09:01 AM

What is wrong with you? Seriously.

Lol. :rolleyes:

Anyway.... I do not like the Apple staff anymore, one bit. I know more than the lots of them - until we get to the geniuses (they know know a bit more than I).

They can't answer any of my questions and everything they try to fob me off with, I already know. I also don't like be hassled so much when I am just going in to buy a pair of headphones.

Anyway, you should go into the store/phone customer support and ask where your 10.5 CD is...

Pressure

Oct 31, 2007, 09:01 AM

You can get Leopard for free though.

We don't have any Apple Stores in Denmark so I haven't witnessed anything first hand.

superleccy

Oct 31, 2007, 09:03 AM

Yes, it's annoying that they try and flog you stuff like .Mac, AppleCare, ProCare etc... But they probably get extra commission for those, or perhaps they are put under a lot of pressure to sell them. That's forgiveable.

As for the SuperDrive upgrade... it was fair of him (and probably part of his job description) to point out that you had the option. So you misunderstood his choice of phrase - what's the problem?

And as for Leopard not being included... hell, it's a mistake. It happens, and I'd be annoyed too. Go back to the store, ask for your copy and get them to refund your petrol if you're still pissed off.

But I don't see how the terms "semi-honest" and "bait-and-switch" apply here.

SL

FF_productions

Oct 31, 2007, 09:05 AM

Yes, it's annoying that they try and flog you stuff like .Mac, AppleCare, ProCare etc... But they probably get extra commission for those, or perhaps they are put under a lot of pressure to sell them. That's forgiveable.

Apple retail employees don't get commission for selling these things. I'm still in shock at how I didn't get the Mac Specialist position. There are lots of un-informed employees at those Apple Stores.

superleccy

Oct 31, 2007, 09:06 AM

Apple retail employees don't get commission for selling these things.
OK, sorry my bad.

SL

koobcamuk

Oct 31, 2007, 09:08 AM

Apple retail employees don't get commission for selling these things. I'm still in shock at how I didn't get the Mac Specialist position. There are lots of un-informed employees at those Apple Stores.

Yeh, see my post above; they are so uninformed sometimes alright. You ask someone a complex question and watch them weasel out of it.

MDiddy

Oct 31, 2007, 09:09 AM

What is wrong with you? Seriously.

I'm certainly not going to stab my eyes out, but your account of the situation does leave a bit open for interpretation. Firstly, on your primary issue of 'bait & switch', if you bought a machine after 6pm on 10/26 from an Apple Store id SHOULD come with a Leopard 'CPU Upgrade' DVD. If it didn't, go back to the store and get one. The salesman didn't lie to you. It should have been there. Also, I think the framing of the 'upgrade to a SuperDrive model' issue is a *little* suspect, but certainlly would not be enough for most people to feel like they've been raped.

I hate coming across and an Apple fanboy, but the situation you're describing doesn't appear to warrant a rant as long as you wrote. Particularly if your machine is solid.

Cheers

saltyzoo

Oct 31, 2007, 09:13 AM

I'm being totally reasonable and stating where they did good and what was understandable. So to call me unreasonable is well, unreasonable.

So if not getting Leopard was a mistake, am I not allowed to express my annoyance with such?

But, it seems some of you are missing the point. Had my entire experience from the moment I began talking to the guy not felt like I was buying a used car none of it would have phased me in the least. You really had to hear exactly how he approached it to understand I guess. He didn't just try to sell me an upgrade, he did it in a sideways fashion. Without an exact transcript I don't expect you to understand what I'm saying.

I'm just expressing my experience and what it felt like to me. If that angers you then flame on and enjoy.

FF_productions

Oct 31, 2007, 09:13 AM

I remember getting Bait and Switched just once in my life.

I went into a cell phone shop looking for the cheapest T-Mobile Phone. I ended up walking out with the most expensive Sprint Phone.

koobcamuk

Oct 31, 2007, 09:16 AM

I am probably reading this from a different perspective - I know all the Mac models and their prices/pros/cons. They cannot dupe me into thinking I need a superdrive in a MacBook when I haven't ever burned a DVD - I am not about to start now.

If you weren't aware of the configuration options, it's your own fault - but they shouldn't make it sound like you can only upgrade the drive or something. It sounds like miscommunication. You must be aware that the people on this forum will most likely know all this straight off the bat. Saying that, I still don't like most of the floor staff.

FF_productions

Oct 31, 2007, 09:22 AM

Saying that, I still don't like most of the floor staff.

It is uber-painful (is that a word?) to watch them at work. They have little to no knowledge about computers. Now I don't expect them to be geeky, but at least know what you are selling to the customer and why they should buy it.

I remember going with my friend to get his MacBook, the salesmen didn't really say anything of importance. He looked like a bad impersonation of Elvis and made me wonder how he possibly got hired at the store.

You could show a little more respect when someone is about to drop $2000 on a new computer.

When I bought my Mac Pro, I ended up with a nicer person. She made it easier to swallow the $3000+ purchase.

saltyzoo

Oct 31, 2007, 09:25 AM

I am probably reading this from a different perspective - I know all the Mac models and their prices/pros/cons. They cannot dupe me into thinking I need a superdrive in a MacBook when I haven't ever burned a DVD - I am not about to start now..

LOL, I do as well, but I'm not so conceited to think maybe there was a change or option I wasn't aware of.

thasan

Oct 31, 2007, 09:28 AM

I hate coming across and an Apple fanboy, but the situation you're describing doesn't appear to warrant a rant as long as you wrote. Particularly if your machine is solid.

Cheers

same here... i think the salesman wasnt aware that leopard isnt there...:rolleyes:

koobcamuk

Oct 31, 2007, 09:28 AM

LOL, I do as well, but I'm not so conceited to think maybe there was a change or option I wasn't aware of.

I am not conceited. Thanks for that.

I know all the options. End of story. There aren't too many to know. You say you are a newcomer to the Mac world... so I was just saying that if you go into a store and don't know the options then be prepared for them to try to sell you a higher spec machine.

I am agreeing with you - they are mostly smarmy and 'casual'. They just wear a damn apple tshirt and think they own the place. I have actually gone into a store before and worn my apple tshirt and started convincing people to buy macs.

I have already convinced 4 people to by the iPhone just from showing them a bunch of things. I know for a fact I will know more than most of the Manchester store staff when it's released here on the 9th. I am a user, not someone who listened to a keynote and then tries to sell it.

saltyzoo

Oct 31, 2007, 09:35 AM

I am not conceited. Thanks for that.

Sorry, I didn't really mean it that way, but it certainly reads that way.

koobcamuk

Oct 31, 2007, 09:39 AM

Sorry, I didn't really mean it that way, but it certainly reads that way.

It's ok - I am agreeing with you.

Maybe I should say that they have tried this trick on me before and I stopped them right in their tracks and got them stuck in a corner.

I say, get 10.5 and forget this whole thing happened. Buy online. If we all do - they'll fire all these people :)

illmaticone

Oct 31, 2007, 09:44 AM

http://www.apple.com/macosx/uptodate/

go get ur free leopard from there

MarlboroLite

Oct 31, 2007, 09:47 AM

I agree with some above that sometimes you get a really bad Apple store employee who is totally clueless. I was in the store on monday looking at a MBP in person before I made the purchase, and so I asked the employee if there was a student discount available to buy in sotre---she had no idea, went back to check. Yep you can! Ok great...so she says let me show you time machine...go go to a nearby iMac and then....well she has no clue how to use time machine! Calls another employee....he has no clue either! It wasn't until the third person came that finally made it work.

I've read something like 5% of applicants to work at Apple Stores get accepted....maybe they are accepting the wrong 5%!

saltyzoo

Oct 31, 2007, 09:48 AM

Buy online. If we all do - they'll fire all these people

That was kind of my moral of my story, but I didn't come out and state it. ;)

I have Leopard coming for my MBP already, so it's not a huge deal. But now my wife is spending her first day with Mac OS on Tiger and I'm going to screw her up installing Leopard on her. :(

snickelfritz

Oct 31, 2007, 09:48 AM

I think you overreacted a little here.
The salesman probably could have handled the superdrive upgrade option a little differently, but from his perspective, the only real difference between the mac-mini models is probably the superdrive, so he chose to refer to it as a "superdrive upgrade".
IMO, it would be a great disservice for a salesman to not at least mention this detail before allowing someone to walk out with a computer that can't burn DVD.

The mistake regarding the Leopard DVD is forgivable, and completely unintentional. Just call the store and have them mail it to you.
Apple wants you to use Leopard.

No bait and switch occurred anywhere in your story, and I seriously doubt anyone lied to you or tried to trick you into buying something you don't want or need.
Honestly, of all the brick'n'morter stores I go to, the Apple Store has been consistently one of the best.

Enjoy your new Mac.

koobcamuk

Oct 31, 2007, 09:53 AM

But now my wife is spending her first day with Mac OS on Tiger and I'm going to screw her up installing Leopard on her. :(

It's not that different... it's not like she's going from Windows to Mac all over again...

Just keep the wallpaper the same and see if she notices a difference :D

saltyzoo

Oct 31, 2007, 09:55 AM

I think you overreacted a little here.

Posting a thread on the internet describing my experience is over-reacting? What would you consider under-reacting? Forgetting to breathe?

Seriously, I didn't make any sort of fuss to the guy. I bought what I intended to buy. How is this over-reacting? LOL

Apple fans still scare me a little sometimes.

Foxglove9

Oct 31, 2007, 09:59 AM

Yes, it's annoying that they try and flog you stuff like .Mac, AppleCare, ProCare etc... But they probably get extra commission for those, or perhaps they are put under a lot of pressure to sell them. That's forgiveable.

The problem is we are all Apple fanboys and girls so we know everything about the product and extra's and all that. But most Mac users aren't like that so it's actually a really good thing for the sales person to tell you all your options and all the extra's they offer like the Applecare, .Mac, upgrades and stuff. I mean you are buying a $600 (or more) computer it's nice that they take the time out to walk you through it all so you don't get home and find out a year and half later that you could have extended your warranty but the salepersons never told you about it.

But what annoyed me was when I bought my Macbook I specifically told the salesgirl that I was a mac expert and knew exactly what I wanted and yet she said she HAD to go through her speech and tell me about the one-on-one they offer, and classes and all that stuff. So what could have been a 5 minute $1200 Computer sale turned into a 30+ minute sale. And and never mind that she had no idea what the difference between DVI or VGA was. She was trying to sell me the wrong adapter even though I kept telling her I needed the DVI one. She also made a few other blunders. But anyway, I think she was new and probably under pressure so it was no biggie.

motulist

Oct 31, 2007, 10:06 AM

I'm still in shock at how I didn't get the Mac Specialist position. There are lots of un-informed employees at those Apple Stores.

I think the answer to your question is in the OP's initial comment. Reading through this thread, it sounds like Apple store salespeople are hired based on sales related skills rather than their knowledge of Apple products beyond the basics.

When I was shopping for my Powerbook at the Apple store about 4 years ago, I had a great experience. I don't know if things have changed since then, but I suspect that there's great variability in the experience one might encounter shopping at any store. Each store chooses it's own sales people, so the style of sales people will be controlled by who does the hiring at that particular store. And each sales person is an individual with a different style. Plus, everyone has better days and worse days. Even when a store has customer friendly sales policies, due to all these variations, things will be different for every sales interaction.

So it's just a fact of human nature and society that every time a person goes to buy from a sales person at any type of store, they're gonna have very different experiences.

Sorry to hear you had a less than ideal experience this time. The real question is, is this a systemic change for the worse, or was it just an unusual poor experience amongst otherwise generally good sales service.

Virgil-TB2

Oct 31, 2007, 10:14 AM

The story of my mac mini purchase yesterday... when she decided on a mac mini 1.8Ghz and I let a salesman know we were ready to make a purchase things went downhill fast ... when he asks me if I want to upgrade the 1.8 to get the better super drive ... I asked how much this "superdrive upgrade" would cost, I was informed it was only $200 more and included a larger hard drive and a faster processor as well. ... don't try to "trick" me into it and don't raise my hopes of something that doesn't really exist.Okay, speaking as person with over 15 years of retail and 25 years of service experience here...

saltyzoo is 100% right and most of the rest of the thread is completely wrong.

Apple does not hire it's store clerks because of techie experience (to answer all those saying that they are stupid and that the customers sometimes are more techie than they are). They hire them as customer service experts. This particular Apple employee gave this person a horrible customer service experience and did at least one thing that Apple forbids (the deceitful hard sell "upgrade"), and made one technical error by not confirming that Leopard was in the box.

Furthermore, he should not have just said "install Leopard when you get home." He should have at least gave the customer an offer of a pre-installed Leopard on some machine or gave him a cost/time for doing so when he balked at the idea of taking it home and doing it himself.

This employee should really have been reported. I know for a fact that Apple does not condone that kind of high pressure dishonest sales tactics and he should be called on it. As others have pointed out, this is not some commissioned high-pressure high-volume sales outlet like Best Buy or FutureShop, it's high-end retail for cripes sake. The employee did not offer to "go the extra mile" in any way with this customer, he just wanted him to buy the most expensive thing he could and then to rush him out of the store. He clearly didn't care about what the customer actually wanted.

All that being said... I find the comparison to a "used car salesman" is a bit over the top. Almost without exception, used car salesmen engage in criminal deceit and fraud.

This Apple employee should be shaken by the ears and perhaps let go or re-trained, but he did nothing criminal.

saltyzoo

Oct 31, 2007, 10:26 AM

The real question is, is this a systemic change for the worse, or was it just an unusual poor experience amongst otherwise generally good sales service.

That's a good question, and one that won't be answered here. Unfortunately, my first purchase at the same store wasn't much better so I'm 0/2.

All that being said... I find the comparison to a "used car salesman" is a bit over the top. Almost without exception, used car salesmen engage in criminal deceit and fraud.

Well, I used the comparison because I don't think that's true. You may feel like you were robbed, but usually it's just smarmy sales combined with personal ignorance.

Feverish Flux

Oct 31, 2007, 10:28 AM

He just wanted him to buy the most expensive thing he could and then to rush him out of the store.

And what would be his motivation for upselling him?

There is none.

Oct 31, 2007, 10:30 AM

I can't think of any electronics retailer who doesn't try to sell you some sort of extra when making a purchase. What i like about Apple is that they position their extras perfectly so that they are trying to sell you a complete solution, not just trying to get you to spend more money. And if you say no, Apple store employees just leave you alone. I remeber when i bought a computer at Best Buy and got to the cash, i stood there for 45 minutes, because the cashier would NOT stop talking about the extended warrranty, even when i threatened to walk away from the sale. On another occasion I bought an $80 printer from staples without any help form a sales associate and just picked it out and walked to the cash, and a swarm of five sales associate came rushing towards me to sell me an extended warranty on an $80 printer!!!!!!!!!

snickelfritz

Oct 31, 2007, 10:34 AM

Posting a thread on the internet describing my experience is over-reacting? What would you consider under-reacting? Forgetting to breathe?

Seriously, I didn't make any sort of fuss to the guy. I bought what I intended to buy. How is this over-reacting? LOL

Apple fans still scare me a little sometimes.

It would have been preferable that you convey your feelings to the store manager or salesman.
(How can Apple take steps to improve their Stores and policies if customers don't speak up when they have a complaint?)
I consider your silence in the store regarding this matter to be an underreaction to your impression of the sales technique at the time.

Posting flaming indictments of Apple's sales tactics and ethics on a Mac messageboard is an overreaction, since you clearly were not bait and switched, you were not lied to, and there was no attempt to "trick you" into upgrading, that I could see.
Everything that occurred in your story seems like perfectly ethical and reasonable sales technique. The omission of Leopard was clearly an honest mistake.

In any event, mentioning this to the store salesman would have been more productive than ranting about it in a public forum and referring to the sales rep as a "used car salesman" simply because he tried to sell you an upgrade. (I agree with him BTW; IMO it's a mistake to buy a computer in this day and age that cannot burn DVD; it's cheaper than CDROM and it's far more versatile.)

I have to admit you're right that I'm an Apple fanboy. :)
I'm not scary though, except in the morning before I've had my coffee.

foidulus

Oct 31, 2007, 10:34 AM

and I'm going to screw her up installing Leopard on her. :(

They have Leopard for females now? Is it better than their default os :p

Fastshutter

Oct 31, 2007, 10:49 AM

Like someone else already said, what happened to you wasn't bait and switch. By your own admission you walked into the store not knowing what you wanted. Bait-n-switch only happens when a retailer advertises one item with a great price to get you into the store and then try to sell you something else (and never intending to honor the advertisement).

On the other hand, if the salesman made it sound like the drive was upgradable by itself, but was really getting you to upgrade to a completely different model, than I can agree it was underhanded tactic.

As far as not including Leopard, that was his second mistake. Go back to Apple store and get your software!

I'm sorry to hear about your experience. My local Apple store is awesome. The sales staff are helpfull, and actually pretty knowledgable about Apple products. Ask them about 3rd party software and it is hit and miss. When I bought my last mac from them, I told the salesman exactly what I wanted and he grabbed it from the back no questions asked.

Saying you would rather go to best buy over an Apple store makes my stomach hurt ;)

saltyzoo

Oct 31, 2007, 10:56 AM

Isince you clearly were not bait and switched We can argue on the definition of bait-and-switch, but I consider being demo'd one operating system and told I'd get it and then being given another operating system instead a bait-and-switch.

you were not lied toNeither of us knows that for sure. You prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt. After listening to his sales pitch. I don't. I think he would have said anything he could get away with to get me to sign the credit card slip.

and there was no attempt to "trick you" into upgrading, that I could see. Well, you weren't there. It was very obvious to me. Maybe my opinion should count more than yours since I was there? :p

Everything that occurred in your story seems like perfectly ethical and reasonable sales technique. The omission of Leopard was clearly an honest mistake. Again, you give benefit of the doubt. Perhaps they were out of disks, but since I mention interest in it he didn't want to jeopardize the sale? Perhaps he just didn't like me because I knew what I wanted? Who knows. I'm not saying I'm right, but based on the whole experience it "feels" intentional.

(I agree with him BTW; IMO it's a mistake to buy a computer in this day and age that cannot burn DVD; it's cheaper than CDROM and it's far more versatile.)

Not when you already have 4 computers in the house that can burn DVD's and the user of this machine has never burned a DVD in their life and has no need to do so. Send me $200 and I'll swap machines to make you happy. k?

In any event, mentioning this to the store salesman would have been more productive than ranting about it in a public forum and referring to the sales rep as a "used car salesman" simply because he tried to sell you an upgrade.
Perhaps your right on this point. First off, I don't consider it my job to set Apple retail store policy or train their employees. I already wasted a good 30 minutes dealing with their sales process, I don't really feel like wasting more time beating my head against a wall - because secondly - I don't think my complaining is going to change their methods. At best it would probably get that one salesman in trouble for doing what all of them appeared to me to be doing.

Like someone else already said, what happened to you wasn't bait and switch. By your own admission you walked into the store not knowing what you wanted.

My wife and I shopped around to determine which model suited her best. I politely refused requests for help until we had decided what we wanted. When I contacted the sales guy, I told him EXACTLY what model I wanted. VERY specifically and in no uncertain terms. "I am ready to buy a mac mini 1.8Ghz, will you get one for me?"

Saying you would rather go to best buy over an Apple store makes my stomach hurt ;)

LOL, sorry to inflict pain on you, but it was true. AND, I think my best buy is selling mini's now so I could have done it in a 1/4 of the time. :o

koobcamuk

Oct 31, 2007, 11:01 AM

Just out of interest... are you British? We put up with crap and then complain later. It's what we're famous for. Well, that and a few other things. :rolleyes:

I think they come across as smarmy and "funky". The way they dress and hold themselves is so "down with the kids" that it annoys me.

One girl tried telling me that the iPhone would work with any headphones I had previously bought. When I whipped out my iPhone and showed her that is not the case, I said "Now do you see why I am asking for iPhone compatible earphones and not just any old pair?". She said "Oh, I see what you mean". Ill informed.

saltyzoo

Oct 31, 2007, 11:03 AM

Just out of interest... are you British? We put up with crap and then complain later. It's what we're famous for. Well, that and a few other things. :rolleyes:
LOL Nope. Closer to being a redneck than a Brit.

I think they come across as smarmy and "funky". The way they dress and hold themselves is so "down with the kids" that it annoys me. .

ROTFL I cannot disagree.

koobcamuk

Oct 31, 2007, 11:05 AM

LOL Nope. Closer to being a redneck than a Brit.

ROTFL I cannot disagree.

Your family-tree might stem this way though... ;)

Either way - I totally agree. Even if not with every point you make, just with the notion that the Apple Store sales team piss me off a hell of a lot.

Virgil-TB2

Oct 31, 2007, 11:06 AM

And what would be his motivation for upselling him?

There is none.You are right.

I was merely describing what appeared to be the guys attitude/intention, but you are right that it makes no sense for him to do it.

Maybe he just is used to working at other stores where this kind of thing is more typical?

Maclomaniac

Oct 31, 2007, 11:07 AM

As someone who used to work at an Apple retail store, I think it's a bit unfair to make sweeping generalizations about how all Apple employees suck and don't know anything (not that the OP did that, but others on these forums have).

When I worked in the store, everyone was hired because they were all big Mac fans (like the people here) and had above average knowledge - but not expert level, because the pay scale isn't that high. A lot of them regularly read MacRumors and other Apple sites. They are hired because of prior experience with Apple stuff, friendliness, etc, not usually because they have lots of sales experience (except managers, who usually have a lot of prior retail management experience).

I don't know how the employee phrased the whole superdrive/combodrive upgrade thing (it sounds perhaps, a bit obnoxiously), but checking with a customer to make sure he knows he's buying the right thing sounds like the right thing to do. A customer is just as likely to get mad later because he wasn't told a combo drive is just a DVD player and not burner. You never know if the customer walking in is a clueless PC-switcher, Windows lover coming in to harass you, or even a bigtime Apple fan who has a chip on his shoulder and totally certain he knows more than you about all Apple products ever made. If you talk to one of these people the wrong way, they could get really mad.

I'm sure there are a lot of idiots out there working for apple retail (hey, even if it's apple, it's still $8 an hour with no commission), but a lot of us were Mac fans just like the people here and had no intention of or experience in being a high pressure salesperson.

And the leopard thing was a mistake... I'm sure he really did think it was in there (and should have probably double checked) because they open all the boxes to slide in the CD. So an honest mistake, yes, but not a bait and switch or outright lie.

koobcamuk

Oct 31, 2007, 11:17 AM

it's still $8 an hour with no commission),

that would be illegal here. Must be at least $13 an hour I would think. Now I know why we pay more for Apple things ><

Maybe I will just go to the USA and experience the stores there nect time I buy a mac.

Not all apple staff are ignorant, but the majority are. Maybe.

skye12

Oct 31, 2007, 11:41 AM

All the facts were presented. Seems to be a more a problem
with you parting with your money than anything else.

Apple store people have to deal with the public. Thats NOT easy.

saltyzoo

Oct 31, 2007, 11:46 AM

All the facts were presented. Seems to be a more a problem
with you parting with your money than anything else.

Apple store people have to deal with the public. Thats NOT easy.

LOL Ok, even though I never complained about price and I bought everything I intended too for the price that was asked. (Although I didn't get everything I was told I bought)

Canerican

Oct 31, 2007, 12:40 PM

Apple Store sales people are pretty good, and they do upsell quite a bit. I think that it was fine to outline what the extra $200 gets you, because the upgrade is significant past the Super Drive. It might have been a mistake, who knows.
Apple Store sales people are inexperienced, and are sales oriented, not customer satisfaction oriented. I have sold cars for a major dealership in the past, and trust me, what Apple does to pitch isn't bad compared to some of the things I have seen.

Canerican

Oct 31, 2007, 12:50 PM

[QUOTE=koobcamuk;4422821]that would be illegal here. Must be at least $13 an hour I would think. Now I know why we pay more for Apple things ><

Maybe I will just go to the USA and experience the stores there nect time I buy a mac.
[\QUOTE]

High wages does not equal good sales people and better productivity. It just equals higher wages for the sake of higher wages.

In scientific management you do not actually need to increase one's wage to make them more productive, improving work conditions, employer-employee relations, and improving fringe benefits is more effective.

There are two times when improving the wage is good - if an emplyee is being a "living wage" which in America is generally lower than any industrialized and advanced economy, and in order to increase happiness and productivity on the short run.

Giving higher wages will attract "better" workers, but giving a raise doesn't do much.

chedda

Oct 31, 2007, 01:23 PM

I might (probably) be wrong but would the leopard dvd install on a combo drive ? I don't think it comes on cd like tiger so perhaps he was awkwardly trying to save you ?

koobcamuk

Oct 31, 2007, 01:29 PM

Giving higher wages will attract "better" workers, but giving a raise doesn't do much.

I meant that we get paid more overall here. I am trying to justify why Apple is raping us in the ass over prices.

saltyzoo

Oct 31, 2007, 01:31 PM

I might (probably) be wrong but would the leopard dvd install on a combo drive ? I don't think it comes on cd like tiger so perhaps he was awkwardly trying to save you ?

combo drives can read dvd's just fine.

So he BS's me to upgrade drives, and then doesn't use that as a hook to get me to upgrade? Nope. Doesn't make any sense at all.

Redline13

Oct 31, 2007, 02:11 PM

We can argue on the definition of bait-and-switch, but I consider being demo'd one operating system and told I'd get it and then being given another operating system instead a bait-and-switch.

The idea that they "tried to bait-and-switch" you is ridiculous. How does Apple benefit from doing this? It was just a mistake on the clerk's part. Mistakes happen.

Sdashiki

Oct 31, 2007, 02:11 PM

DING DING!

reality checking in:

Non-Commission doesnt mean "dont upsell and upgrade"

Take CrapBuy, they arent on commission and yet they are just as pushy sometimes as places which are on commission.

Just as with the Apple store, they have retail #s to meet, and if you as a sales person arent selling enough .mac or applecare, you will be talked to and possibly fired.

Apple sales people are going to be "pushy" because they are expected to upsell or get yelled at. But like any smart customer, you say no thank you and move on.

saltyzoo

Oct 31, 2007, 02:33 PM

How does Apple benefit from doing this?
I made it clear that Leopard was important to me. If they didn't have it they may lose the sale. Commission or not I don't think they want warm bodies leaving the store without making their purchase.

All that said, it very likely was a mistake. BUT again, you're missing the point. If the guy hadn't acted in a way that made me distrust him, I wouldn't be feeling like it was intentional, I would be wholeheartedly agreeing that it was a mistake. That's why not pulling that kind of smarmy sales trickery is important. Treat people like people and they'll accept it when you make an honest screw up.

Redline13

Oct 31, 2007, 02:45 PM

I made it clear that Leopard was important to me. If they didn't have it they may lose the sale. Commission or not I don't think they want warm bodies leaving the store without making their purchase.

All that said, it very likely was a mistake. BUT again, you're missing the point. If the guy hadn't acted in a way that made me distrust him, I wouldn't be feeling like it was intentional, I would be wholeheartedly agreeing that it was a mistake. That's why not pulling that kind of smarmy sales trickery is important. Treat people like people and they'll accept it when you make an honest screw up.

No one was trying to rip you off. Like any other salesman on the planet he tried to up sell you. Then someone forgot to put the upgrade disc in your box. Nothing "smarmy" here. Move along. I hope you and you wife enjoy the new computer.

milo

Oct 31, 2007, 02:47 PM

I remember getting Bait and Switched just once in my life.

I went into a cell phone shop looking for the cheapest T-Mobile Phone. I ended up walking out with the most expensive Sprint Phone.

So you're saying they advertised a cheap T-Mobile phone but didn't have that cheap phone in stock? Because otherwise it's not bait and switch.

The OP isn't bait and switch either, something just got left out of the box by accident.

Furthermore, he should not have just said "install Leopard when you get home." He should have at least gave the customer an offer of a pre-installed Leopard on some machine or gave him a cost/time for doing so when he balked at the idea of taking it home and doing it himself.

Did he balk at it? It doesn't say that in the OP. Some people are perfectly fine with doing the install themselves, especially if it means getting the machine or OS sooner.

We can argue on the definition of bait-and-switch, but I consider being demo'd one operating system and told I'd get it and then being given another operating system instead a bait-and-switch.

You can consider whatever you want, but there's a legal definition of bait and switch, and your case clearly doesn't fit it. Just as considering a dog to be a monkey doesn't make it a monkey.

So what happened when you contacted the store and let them know they said the disk was included but it wasn't? Did they say you could get a disk or refuse you?

CashGap

Oct 31, 2007, 03:09 PM

It's very hard for technical people to understand, but product knowledge is one of the least valuable assets to a retail salesperson. And what little they do need to know is very easy to teach.

When the hiring authority hears "My first Apple was a ][c, and last week I made my own custom install DVD with 10.5, iLife '08 and my nine essential utilities, then installed it over the wire to all the machines in my apartment", they do not merely doze off, they flick to the next channel!

Approachability, flexible hours, ability to follow instruction and ability to shrug off rude treatment are probably the key qualifications of any retail employee, including Apple store specialists.

iPhil

Oct 31, 2007, 03:12 PM

Where it's commissioned or not sales .. The .Mac /Pro care / Applecare (type items-from futurshop/bestbuy/circuit city etc.) are the highest profit margins..

That's why the sales people are required to ask the customer about those items ..

Apple store employees are not commissioned but they're given a Quarterly Goal on .mac / pro care /Apple care, If the sales team meets the goal then they get Quarterly bonus..

I bet your wondering how i know this info on apple sales ?

well i can't say.. because where i found the info,  pulled it ..

snickelfritz

Oct 31, 2007, 03:19 PM

You seem convinced that the staff at this store have an agenda that is contrary to Apple policies. For what possible reason?

The insinuation in a public forum that the staff at this Apple Store is dishonest or unethical simply because of a mistake or bad sales technique is not justified.
Accusing them of poor organization and bad sales training is probably closer to the truth. I can't prove it though; I wasn't there.

slu

Oct 31, 2007, 03:34 PM

Why didn't you just get a Mac Mini-Tower?

Nothing here was "smarmy". The guy's job is to sell you as much stuff as possible. He did not lie to you about the "upgrade" since he told you how much it would cost and what else you get for your extra $200. This is know as a "mis-understanding" or "mis-communication". They also have those little signs with price and specs all over the place that clearly indicate what the options are for each model.

You were not "bait and switched" because someone forgot to put in a copy of Leopard. We can't argue about the definition of bait and switch either, just like we can't argue about the definition of "water". These have already been defined. And after being told that you should have gotten a copy of Leopard, if you don't go back and get your copy of Leopard, then you are the one at fault.

You sound like one of those people (as do some others in this thread) that think sales people, waiters, or anyone in a customer service position must treat them like a god and who treats people in these positions as subservient. Seriously, I am not saying all Apple employees are perfect, or that even most are because I don't know, but I have never really had a bad experience at any store (not just Apple) except for one or two occasions. Is this because I am lucky or because I know what to expect, am polite, and am firm about what I want (if I already know)? What do you expect? These guys barely make any money at all. What type of help do you expect for 8 bucks an hour?

You seem to have lots of complaints about Apple and I wonder what you think complaining here will get you? If you are not satisfied you should complain to Apple, they are the only ones that can give you any satisfaction. Although I am not sure you would have been satisfied under any circumstance.

Commence calling me a scary "Apple Fan Boy" now....

snickelfritz

Oct 31, 2007, 03:35 PM

I made it clear that Leopard was important to me.

This is an important detail, and I think I would be pissed-off as well if I got home without a copy of Leopard.
After all, that is one of the primary reasons you went to the store!
The salesmen should have made absolutely sure your Leopard disk was included in the box.
I would write this off as poor customer service training, and lack of attention to your needs.

koobcamuk

Oct 31, 2007, 03:44 PM

These guys barely make any money at all. What type of help do you expect for 8 bucks an hour?

Please... is that even minimum wage in the USA?

If he wants money, he can damn well earn it! He should work hard regardless. Maybe he was working too hard!

milo

Oct 31, 2007, 03:49 PM

Please... is that even minimum wage in the USA?

Oh, if only. Try $5.85 for the federal minimum (although some states have various higher ones).

slu

Oct 31, 2007, 03:52 PM

Please... is that even minimum wage in the USA?

If he wants money, he can damn well earn it! He should work hard regardless. Maybe he was working too hard!

Federal minimum wage is $5.85/hr. Many states have higher minimum wages, some up to 7 or 8 dollars per hour.

If anyone wants money, they can certainly earn it somewhere if they have the skill, motivation, opportunity, etc. People that work at Apple Stores certainly accept the job knowing the wage, but what type of person (generally) do you attract for the same wages they give at McDonald's?

koobcamuk

Oct 31, 2007, 04:05 PM

what type of person (generally) do you attract for the same wages they give at McDonald's?

I'll get banned if I answer this. I am bowing out of this one :)

saltyzoo

Oct 31, 2007, 05:09 PM

You seem to have lots of complaints about Apple and I wonder what you think complaining here will get you? If you are not satisfied you should complain to Apple, they are the only ones that can give you any satisfaction. Although I am not sure you would have been satisfied under any circumstance.

This statement is as wrong as everything else you said, so I'll just focus on it for simplicity.

I had no complaints about Apple whatsoever. I have a complaint about two Apple retail salesman and the shop they work in. I have been very careful and fair about not generalizing - unlike you. I am in fact, very happy with my Apple, and I've already said so several times. That does not change the reality of my experience.

milo

Oct 31, 2007, 05:21 PM

This statement is as wrong as everything else you said, so I'll just focus on it for simplicity.

I had no complaints about Apple whatsoever. I have a complaint about two Apple retail salesman and the shop they work in. I have been very careful and fair about not generalizing - unlike you. I am in fact, very happy with my Apple, and I've already said so several times. That does not change the reality of my experience.

So what did apple say when you called up to tell them you didn't get the leopard disk as promised?

tingly

Oct 31, 2007, 05:31 PM

Looks to me like he simply hadn't gotten to the part where the price was mentioned. I wouldn't assume same price, cheaper or more expensive with the superdrive until I asked or he said. If he charged your CC without telling a higher price, that'd be bad. The missing OS could be straightened out with a quick trip to the apple store, in and out with your DVD.

The conclusions in the first post were a bit of an over-reaction, tho you're better reasoned now with "coulda been a mistake". That's all that people were reacting to.

FF_productions

Oct 31, 2007, 05:41 PM

So you're saying they advertised a cheap T-Mobile phone but didn't have that cheap phone in stock? Because otherwise it's not bait and switch.

The guy really pushed towards Sprint, as if T-Mobile didn't exist. This was my first time getting a Cell Phone, so I went ahead with it.

The guy was asian and had really bad english, and kept saying Sprint is becoming the best provider and that I should really sign up for it.

I'm not going to complain though, I ended up with a pretty nice phone. Maybe I was a little too harsh to even call it bait and switch. i don't the OP got bait and switched at all either.

I also ended up understanding that I didn't get the job at Apple because I just didn't have enough retail experience. They could care less for what I knew and how much I knew about Apple stuff. The goal is to sell their product and let the computer do the teaching.

saltyzoo

Oct 31, 2007, 05:42 PM

So what did apple say when you called up to tell them you didn't get the leopard disk as promised?

I got my leopard disk for my MBP from fedex today. Waste of time to call them and fight about it.

Looks to me like he simply hadn't gotten to the part where the price was mentioned. I wouldn't assume same price, cheaper or more expensive with the superdrive until I asked or he said. If he charged your CC without telling a higher price, that'd be bad. The missing OS could be straightened out with a quick trip to the apple store, in and out with your DVD.
No, I had to prod him to get the price and find out that it was the other model. Again, you had to be there. I asked for model A and he says, would you like the superdrive upgrade - when what he really meant was "would you like model B that has a superdrive?".

The conclusions in the first post were a bit of an over-reaction, tho you're better reasoned now with "coulda been a mistake". That's all that people were reacting to.

Sorry, but I disagree. Either way I didn't get what I was told I would get. He "bought" my reaction by his sales methods. Had he been straight with me it would have never occurred to me it was anything but a mistake.

Canerican

Oct 31, 2007, 05:54 PM

naftalim

Oct 31, 2007, 06:13 PM

Guys, lets be fair, its in our interest for an Apple Store to succeed, because that means the company does well, and invests in new products for us. Retail is tough, (Not that Ive ever done it)

I dont mind if someone tries to sell me something, so long as they do it with integrity and don't take me for a fool. I dont think that Apple Stores practice Bait and Switch, I do know that the big chains do.

Like any sales position, training is important, a good salesperson knows how to establish a personal rapport with the customer and to LISTEN to what the customer wants. Not many people can do that.

Signed

Waiting for the Apple Store to come to Vancouver, BC

tingly

Oct 31, 2007, 06:22 PM

I've never heard of an upgrade for anything that didn't cost more money.

To completely dismiss the possibility that not including the DVD was a mistake was unreasonable. It was also a leap to a conclusion, considering that you can still get it from the store for free. Get all the facts, then accuse away, that's reasonable.

saltyzoo

Oct 31, 2007, 06:29 PM

You call it bait and switch, and then you say it might have been a mistake.

Which one is it?

And what you are describing isn't bait and switch, its outright theft. If youi believe that, call the Attorney General for your state

Not at all. I have no doubt that Apple would make it right in the end. Again, that is not the point.

iliketomac

Oct 31, 2007, 06:48 PM

True, no commission whatsoever for Apple employees BUT management highly stresses metrics! (that's --> .mac, applecare, procare, and one-to-one). The store still needs to make its daily, weekly, monthly, and quarterly goals --> and it's all about METRICS!

nineteentwelve

Oct 31, 2007, 06:51 PM

When I worked my stint as a Mac Specialist at the Trafford Centre store in Manchester, we had to get 10% .Mac, 20% Pro-Care and 30% AppleCare on the Macs we sold. Also, we had to sell a certain percentage of AppleCare with iPods too.

No commission, just nice discounts.

skubish

Oct 31, 2007, 06:54 PM

CalBoy

Oct 31, 2007, 07:25 PM

The story of my mac mini purchase yesterday...

I hate pressure sales, and I really dislike "smarmy", semi-honest, bait-and-switch, used car sales tactics.
You weren't "baited" or "switched.":

the action (generally illegal) of advertising goods that are an apparent bargain, with the intention of substituting inferior or more expensive goods : [as adj. ] a bait-and-switch scheme.

Neither Apple nor the employee did this. I know you're upset, but that doesn't give you the right to make up new definitions ;)

But, when he asks me if I want to upgrade the 1.8 to get the better super drive I was intrigued, thinking, by the way he phrased the question and how clearly I stated which model I wanted at the very beginning, that he meant I could add the superdrive onto the 1.8 version mini. But alas, no, when I asked how much this "superdrive upgrade" would cost, I was informed it was only $200 more and included a larger hard drive and a faster processor as well. Grrr. Don't pull that crap, just point out the benefits of the other version and be done with it, don't try to "trick" me into it and don't raise my hopes of something that doesn't really exist. Can you say "backfire"? Now I was doubting whether I should purchase anything from the guy at all.
He didn't trick you. I'm sure he was just trying to tell you that a better model was available just in case you missed it on the floor or didn't know about it. You're being awfully cynical here.

Anyway, we go through the process (I actually said to my wife while waiting for him to go get the mini that gee, I miss Best Buy where I can just pick up the product I want and buy it and leave) and I ask whether Leopard is installed or not. He says, "no, this one was in stock prior to the release of Leopard and we aren't installing it on prior stock - But, it includes a copy of Leopard in the box so you can run either OS you want, I recommend you upgrade to Leopard before even using it."

So, I get home and open up the box. Tiger is installed as he said. But no Leopard disk. Then I realized, if the box was sealed and it came in to the store pre-Leopard release, how could they possibly put Leopard in the box? I'm struggling to see how his statement wasn't an outright lie. Also, keep in mind that every computer we demo'd had Leopard on it. Can you say "bait-and-switch"?
No I can't say "bait-and-switch" because that didn't happen. You assume that this was all one person's fault. In reality, he probably wasn't in charge of putting the Leopard disk in each box; such a task was undoubtedly done by someone else (the probability of it is just against him being the person who slips it in there). Mistakes happen every once in a while. Just call Apple and tell them that it was not in the box, and I'm sure they'll send one out to you.

There's good reason that no one's responded to this yet. Beyond the static in the middle of your paragraphs'o'rediculousness, you levee charges of your own misunderstanding at Apple.

I know hearing others use the phrase 'bait-n-switch' sounds so kewl that you want to throw it around too, fit in with the hip crowd. Pick up a book instead. Or try using the intarweb for searching.

Wikipedia sez, "Bait and switch is a form of fraud in which the fraudster lures in customers by advertising a product or service at an unprofitably low price, then reveals to potential customers that the advertised good is not available but that a substitute is."

In order for your rambling incoherent accusation to be correct, you would have had to been LURED to the Apple store with sugary promises of a bumper crop of cheap, cheap computers. Sound unbelievable? So does your sob story.

I really want to be a good, shining example of the beckoning world of apple products, but your story makes me want to stab my eyes out.
I agree with your general assertions, but I think you were a bit rude. There's no need for that.

PS: Spelling words correctly usually helps you seem more mature and worthy of recognition. ;)

I'm being totally reasonable and stating where they did good and what was understandable. So to call me unreasonable is well, unreasonable.
Hi unreasonable :) Just kidding. I can understand if you were upset, but I really can't find an actual reason to blame the poor employee. In this case, the only thing he did wrong was forget to check the box for Leopard. However, I think it's perfectly ok for you to complain; that's what these forums are for.

So if not getting Leopard was a mistake, am I not allowed to express my annoyance with such?
You are. I do hope that others who have troubles feel free to post complaints because that's the only way things are ever changed.

But, it seems some of you are missing the point. Had my entire experience from the moment I began talking to the guy not felt like I was buying a used car none of it would have phased me in the least.
You haven't really given us anything to make us feel that he was indeed acting like a used-car salesman. Provide some proof of this, and maybe we'll be able to sympathize.

I'm just expressing my experience and what it felt like to me. If that angers you then flame on and enjoy.
I'm glad you did express your thoughts. Others who don't are leaving potential problems buried under the rug.

I have Leopard coming for my MBP already, so it's not a huge deal. But now my wife is spending her first day with Mac OS on Tiger and I'm going to screw her up installing Leopard on her. :(
I don't know what's going to "screw her up" with an upgrade to Leopard. Tiger and Leopard aren't radically different. The upgrade on my mbp took only about 45 minutes, and I didn't have to do a thing after that.

Seriously, I didn't make any sort of fuss to the guy. I bought what I intended to buy. How is this over-reacting? LOL

Apple fans still scare me a little sometimes.
Comparing him to a used-car salesman is a bit of an over-reaction. However, I do agree; Apple (and Microsoft) fanboys are scary sometimes.

We can argue on the definition of bait-and-switch,
No, we can't. Definitions are not up for interpretation by one upset poster on one specific forum. Get a PHD in Linguistics and English, and then we'll talk.

but I consider being demo'd one operating system and told I'd get it and then being given another operating system instead a bait-and-switch.
I know you're upset, but it was an honest mistake. The employee got nothing out of this, and you have an easy path towards remedy.

Neither of us knows that for sure. You prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Yes, we usually do give the benefit of the doubt to the accused. ;)

Well, you weren't there. It was very obvious to me. Maybe my opinion should count more than yours since I was there? :p
Truth be told, just because you were there doesn't mean anything. Most witnesses are terrible at remembering just what happened. Right now, your opinion of this guy is based on emotions, while we're trying (most of us) to be objective.

I might (probably) be wrong but would the leopard dvd install on a combo drive ? I don't think it comes on cd like tiger so perhaps he was awkwardly trying to save you ?
Combos can read DVDs, just not write them. If it weren't for this, a whole lot of low-end macbook owners would be quite upset! :p

DesignerOnMac

Oct 31, 2007, 07:51 PM

That was kind of my moral of my story, but I didn't come out and state it. ;)

I have Leopard coming for my MBP already, so it's not a huge deal. But now my wife is spending her first day with Mac OS on Tiger and I'm going to screw her up installing Leopard on her. :(

Remember that the Apple OS license only allows you to install the OS on ONE computer, your still going to need another copy for the mac mini

saltyzoo

Oct 31, 2007, 07:56 PM

Sorry calboy, but showing me one product then giving me another is a bait and switch. The bait was Leopard. The switch was tiger. All your linguistics phd bs is irrelevant.

You haven't really given us anything to make us feel that he was indeed acting like a used-car salesman. Provide some proof of this, and maybe we'll be able to sympathize.

Sorry, next time I'll hire a videographer so random people on the internet will believe me. lol

Here's one for all of you that keep saying "what did he gain by misleading you?" as some kind of proof that he didn't. What do I gain by making up the story? I didn't get paid for posting this. Do I think that's proof that I'm 100% right? No. But neither is your silly argument that he had nothing to gain therefore it's impossible he did anything wrong.

Remember that the Apple OS license only allows you to install the OS on ONE computer, your still going to need another copy for the mac mini

You have got to be kidding right? You think I'm going to spend my time to go get the disk so I can have a legal license when I am in fact entitled to the legal license?

Good lord. Some of you people really just are out there.

CalBoy

Oct 31, 2007, 08:04 PM

Sorry calboy, but showing me one product then giving me another is a bait and switch. The bait was Leopard. The switch was tiger. All your linguistics phd bs is irrelevant.

Can't you accept that it was an honest mistake? I'm sure if you call Apple, the rep will more than happily send out a copy to you ASAP. Don't call it a 'bait-and-switch' until Apple says, "sorry, you're out of luck."

Sorry, next time I'll hire a videographer so random people on the internet will believe me. lol
Even if you had pointed to some kind of suspect behavior in your tale, it would have helped. As far as I can tell (with what you provided us with) you became hyper sensitive to his suggestion to upgrade the mini, and then you basically assumed he was trying to take something from you simply because the box doesn't have a copy of Leopard. It's called a mistake. They happen everyday. Get over it and move on.

Here's one for all of you that keep saying "what did he gain by misleading you?" as some kind of proof that he didn't. What do I gain by making up the story? I didn't get paid for posting this. Do I think that's proof that I'm 100% right? No. But neither is your silly argument that he had nothing to gain therefore it's impossible he did anything wrong.
Posters do make up stories sometimes (you don't see them here because the mods are great at removing them promptly). I don't think you made up your story, but I also happen to think that your story isn't meritorious of any claim of fraudulent behavior on the part of Apple or its employee.
You have got to be kidding right? You think I'm going to spend my time to go get the disk so I can have a legal license when I am in fact entitled to the legal license?
Don't agree to a contract you can't live up to. The Leopard DVD that is intended for your mini is meant soley for the mini. If you have problems with this, contact Apple and its attorneys.

Good lord. Some of you people really just are out there.

Following the law is "out there." Imagine that. :rolleyes:

DesignerOnMac

Oct 31, 2007, 08:04 PM

LOL Ok, even though I never complained about price and I bought everything I intended too for the price that was asked. (Although I didn't get everything I was told I bought)

I worked retail for a number of years and went to product training for new systems once a year. The store had a flyer in the Sunday newspaper, advertising sale items...loss leaders as we called them on the selling floor. The idea of the flyer was to get the customer into the store, show them the computer on sale, but then mention it does not have this or that, and upgrade them to another model etc.

The dictionary definition of bai and switch is:

In retail sales, a bait and switch is a form of fraud in which the fraudster lures in customers by advertising a product or service at an unprofitably low price, then reveals to potential customers that the advertised good is not available but that a substitute good is. ...

I also do not think this salesman was a typical Apple Store employee. I have been to many Apple Stores and have yet to find a pushy salesperson or anyone who has not been helpful.

DesignerOnMac

Oct 31, 2007, 08:07 PM

I made it clear that Leopard was important to me. If they didn't have it they may lose the sale. Commission or not I don't think they want warm bodies leaving the store without making their purchase.

All that said, it very likely was a mistake. BUT again, you're missing the point. If the guy hadn't acted in a way that made me distrust him, I wouldn't be feeling like it was intentional, I would be wholeheartedly agreeing that it was a mistake. That's why not pulling that kind of smarmy sales trickery is important. Treat people like people and they'll accept it when you make an honest screw up.

So your assuming this salesperson KNEW in ADVANCE that Leopard are not in the box???

saltyzoo

Oct 31, 2007, 08:10 PM

Don't agree to a contract you can't live up to. The Leopard DVD that is intended for your mini is meant soley for the mini. If you have problems with this, contact Apple and its attorneys.

I am legally entitled to install and run the software on the machine. What physical disk I use to do so is irrelevant. If you have problems with this feel free to contact Apple and report my "crime" to their attorneys.

If I had two disks and got them mixed up and used the same one twice I guess I'm going to be sued for piracy too huh? LOL And you think I'm going to take anything you say seriously?

JNB

Oct 31, 2007, 08:14 PM

caj

Oct 31, 2007, 08:17 PM

saltyzoo

Oct 31, 2007, 08:18 PM

It's really just not ok to say anything even indirectly negative about anything remotely related to Apple is it? lol

Despite the fact that I've said more positive things than negative all you see is the negative and overstate what I've done. I've not claimed fraud or any crime was committed. Those are all your words. Semantics about whether it fits the legal definition of bait and switch, etc, etc.

I described my experience. I gave plenty of kudos along the way where they are due. Flame on, but realize how silly you look to a normal person.

caj

Oct 31, 2007, 08:19 PM

.

haha, nice dude!

you must have posted this while i was posting mine

peace, caj

CalBoy

Oct 31, 2007, 09:42 PM

I am legally entitled to install and run the software on the machine. What physical disk I use to do so is irrelevant. If you have problems with this feel free to contact Apple and report my "crime" to their attorneys.
It isn't entirely irrelevant. Many people have been trying to go around the EULA lately (and claiming so quite blatantly on these forums). The disk that comes with the mini (or was supposed to come) is intended for the mini because it was free. There have been people who have been trying to use this free upgrade disk on a second Mac, and that's what I was alluding to more.

FYI: Contract breach is a civil matter, not criminal. Hence, it is not a 'crime' per se.

If I had two disks and got them mixed up and used the same one twice I guess I'm going to be sued for piracy too huh? LOL And you think I'm going to take anything you say seriously?
A mix up is one thing. An intentional act is another. It's awfully simplistic of you to simply cast aside intent in your analysis of what is "allowed."

It's really just not ok to say anything even indirectly negative about anything remotely related to Apple is it? lol
Plenty of us object to some of Apple's actions. I can tell you that I'm pretty POed with there new "no cash/giftcard" policy on iPhone. I also don't like the fact that some members have had several bad macbooks or iMacs in a row. However, these are legitimate problems/comlaints. I almost get the feeling that you didn't like this guy's face and just decided to think of him as a "used -car salesman" for the duration of your shopping. If you have a real complaint, we're all ears. Heck, even with this non-existent complaint we're hear trying to make sense of what happened to you. Don't attack us because we don't see it from your point of view.

Semantics about whether it fits the legal definition of bait and switch, etc, etc.
It isn't semantics. What you described in your OP is most definitely illegal. Like I said before, you haven't even told us what happened when/if you called Apple about the missing disk. Have they agreed to send out the disk to you? Wait for them to actually deny you something that was promised before you accuse them of consumer fraud.

I described my experience. I gave plenty of kudos along the way where they are due. Flame on, but realize how silly you look to a normal person.

I think we can do without the value judgements. Most of us here work, go to school, etc without having Apple on our minds all the time. Like I said before, I get really mad at some of Apple's policies, but I can't find anything egregious in your narrative. It was an honest mistake, and for some reason, you don't want to accept that.

mrzeve

Oct 31, 2007, 10:20 PM

or perhaps they are put under a lot of pressure to sell them.

Ding Ding Ding.

I would never let a costumer walk out with a Mac Mini basic without first letting them know about the advantages of the more expensive models. For $200 more you are getting upgrades in three departments, hard drive, dvd drive, and processor. Usually though, the most intriguing thing for a customer, as it was for you, is the ability to burn DVDs. If your looking to burn DVDs, your going to need this more expensive model.

I don't think it was anything dishonest or misleading.

And, he wasn't lying to you about Leopard. The staff in the stock room should have put Leopard in your box, but they didn't. Taking your receipt to the store and informing them that it wasn't included with the computer should do it for you.

saltyzoo

Nov 1, 2007, 05:27 AM

It isn't entirely irrelevant. Many people have been trying to go around the EULA lately (and claiming so quite blatantly on these forums). The disk that comes with the mini (or was supposed to come) is intended for the mini because it was free. There have been people who have been trying to use this free upgrade disk on a second Mac, and that's what I was alluding to more.
So accusing me of violating the EULA when you know very well I'm not is ok because a lot of other people on the forum are doing it?

FYI: Contract breach is a civil matter, not criminal. Hence, it is not a 'crime' per se.
Hence my use of quotes around the word crime.

A mix up is one thing. An intentional act is another. It's awfully simplistic of you to simply cast aside intent in your analysis of what is "allowed."
My purchase of the mini grants me a license for the software. What physical disk I use to exercise that license is not relevant. No, I cannot use the disk to install on a machine that I do not have a valid license to use it on. But I'm not doing that, now am I?

BTW, The disk I received in the mail yesterday has no mention whatsoever of a license for a specific machine. Nowhere in any of the packaging does it state anything except that it is not for resale and is intended for use bundled with hardware. I did not violate that at all. I used it only on hardware that should have been bundled with this software. Whether they put the disk in the box, I lost the disk, or the disk was abducted by aliens, or whatever is not relevant. I'm legally licensed to use the software on that machine.

Plenty of us object to some of Apple's actions. I can tell you that I'm pretty POed with there new "no cash/giftcard" policy on iPhone. I also don't like the fact that some members have had several bad macbooks or iMacs in a row. However, these are legitimate problems/comlaints. I almost get the feeling that you didn't like this guy's face and just decided to think of him as a "used -car salesman" for the duration of your shopping. If you have a real complaint, we're all ears. Heck, even with this non-existent complaint we're hear trying to make sense of what happened to you. Don't attack us because we don't see it from your point of view.
I'm only attacking you in response for your attacks on me. lol Calling me a hater, telling my I'm unreasonable, etc. I've not attacked anyone that has simply disagreed with me.

It isn't semantics. What you described in your OP is most definitely illegal. Like I said before, you haven't even told us what happened when/if you called Apple about the missing disk. Have they agreed to send out the disk to you? Wait for them to actually deny you something that was promised before you accuse them of consumer fraud.
Nothing in my OP, is illegal, and I never said it was. If I went to Apple and they refused to give me the disk - that would be illegal. I have stated many times on this thread that I'm certain they would give me the disk if I asked. I've already stated I haven't gone to the store about it (and don't intend to) because it's a waste of time. I'm not suggesting that they wouldn't give me the disk. I'm CERTAIN that they would.

I'M NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT APPLE. I'm complaining about 2 particular apples salesmen in my local retail store that treated me in a way that I feel reflects poorly on Apple.

I think we can do without the value judgements. Most of us here work, go to school, etc without having Apple on our minds all the time. Like I said before, I get really mad at some of Apple's policies, but I can't find anything egregious in your narrative. It was an honest mistake, and for some reason, you don't want to accept that.

LOL I'm the one value judging? That's pretty funny. I'm not the one calling people a hater, and such things. I'm just defending myself and my opinion on what occurred.

milo

Nov 1, 2007, 07:47 AM

The guy really pushed towards Sprint, as if T-Mobile didn't exist. This was my first time getting a Cell Phone, so I went ahead with it.

The guy was asian and had really bad english, and kept saying Sprint is becoming the best provider and that I should really sign up for it.

I'm not going to complain though, I ended up with a pretty nice phone. Maybe I was a little too harsh to even call it bait and switch. i don't the OP got bait and switched at all either.

I also ended up understanding that I didn't get the job at Apple because I just didn't have enough retail experience. They could care less for what I knew and how much I knew about Apple stuff. The goal is to sell their product and let the computer do the teaching.

Thanks for clearing that up. Definitely a lame situation, but that doesn't make it bait and switch.

I got my leopard disk for my MBP from fedex today. Waste of time to call them and fight about it.

So is it a big deal or not? You keep going on about how awful it was you didn't get that disk, but you didn't even bother to make a single phone call to get it sorted out? With all due respect, it almost seems like you want to avoid giving Apple a chance to make good because you'd lose your reason to complain. And way to assume bad faith by jumping to the conclusion that you'd have to "fight about it". Now you're not only going on about what happened, but imagining hypothetical situations where Apple continues to screw you over in the future.

Not at all. I have no doubt that Apple would make it right in the end. Again, that is not the point.

If that's the case, then why assume that you'd have to fight about it?

Remember that the Apple OS license only allows you to install the OS on ONE computer, your still going to need another copy for the mac mini

Except that the mini was supposed to come with Leopard, and it didn't. You really think that installing from the retail disk instead of going back and getting the upgrade disk is somehow illegal or immoral?

Sorry calboy, but showing me one product then giving me another is a bait and switch. The bait was Leopard. The switch was tiger. All your linguistics phd bs is irrelevant.

NO, IT'S NOT.

In retail sales, a bait and switch is a form of fraud in which the fraudster lures in customers by advertising a product or service at an unprofitably low price, then reveals to potential customers that the advertised good is not available but that a substitute is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait_and_switch

Bait and switch is a legal term. It's a form of fraud, and is subject to legal penalties. Using it correctly isn't "linguistics phd bs", it's just using the term to mean what it actually means. Trying to spin an experience you found unpleasant as something that sounds worse, just makes you look ignorant and probably will just make readers here more likely to lose any sympathy and take Apple's side. How are we supposed to take your post seriously when you insist on misrepresenting the situation?

It's not "semantics". It's that a term actually means something. Just give up on the whole "bait and switch" thing and stick to your legitimate complaints.

saltyzoo

Nov 1, 2007, 08:00 AM

So is it a big deal or not? You keep going on about how awful it was you didn't get that disk, but you didn't even bother to make a single phone call to get it sorted out? With all due respect, it almost seems like you want to avoid giving Apple a chance to make good because you'd lose your reason to complain. And way to assume bad faith by jumping to the conclusion that you'd have to "fight about it". Now you're not only going on about what happened, but imagining hypothetical situations where Apple continues to screw you over in the future.
There's nothing to give them "a chance" about. The salesman made me feel like I was buying a used car. That's it. lol I haven't said anything at all beyond that. Other than that I'm perfectly happy with my purchase.

It's not "semantics". It's that a term actually means something. Just give up on the whole "bait and switch" thing and stick to your legitimate complaints.

It is semantics because I'm not filing a legal complaint. I'm using the term in a commonly used fashion to describe being baited by one product and then switched to another. Exactly what the salesman ATTEMPTED to do. I didn't fall for it, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Nowhere in my thread did I say that they broke the law. Even when I said I was "struggling to see how his statement wasn't an outright lie." in my original post, I never claimed he actually lied. I simply expressed my inability at the time to see how it could have been a mistake. Given the passage of some time, I can soften on this point, but again, had he not lost my trust with his sales methods it never would have been an issue in the first place, and it does not change what my thoughts were when I opened the box and saw that there was no disk.

CashGap

Nov 1, 2007, 08:08 AM

Folks, the tough part is that OP probably has issues with LOTS of retailers, service providers, etc. Walk in with a world-class chip on your shoulder and it happens.

Take this little nugget:

" Then I realized, if the box was sealed and it came in to the store pre-Leopard release..."

Now, if the store had opened the box and slipped in a Leopard update disk, OP would have written the following:

" Then I realized, the box on my supposedly-new machine had been opened and resealed! When I brought this to the managers attention, loudly so that everyone else could know what they tried to pull, he tried to say that they'd opened it to insert the update disk. A likely story. I paid for a new machine and I think they bait-and-switched me for a used unit! Bait and switch! Bait and switch!".

Remember the lady a few weeks ago that went all Axl Rose at the Apple store because if she'd admitted dropping her laptop, Mommy Dearest was going to flip out on her? Similar.

saltyzoo

Nov 1, 2007, 08:12 AM

Nice. Just make up stuff I might say now. LOL Classic. Great debate skills.

PS> Remember, I'm supposedly the one making "value judgments". lol what a joke. Not to mention that post doesn't reflect my behavior in the least. Remember, I didn't say a thing at the store let alone make a big stink. I got flamed for that too. LOL

PPS> You really might want to actually read the thread before you post something stupid.

koobcamuk

Nov 1, 2007, 08:24 AM

Folks,

I think you've been a bit harsh here. He was just venting. Maybe bait and switch isn't the best terminology, but we should let this one fly... :rolleyes:

milo

Nov 1, 2007, 08:33 AM

There's nothing to give them "a chance" about. The salesman made me feel like I was buying a used car. That's it. lol I haven't said anything at all beyond that. Other than that I'm perfectly happy with my purchase.

I'm talking specifically about the missing Leopard disk. If it truly is a big deal, you can call them up and tell them they need to send you the missing disk. If you don't care enough to even try to get that disk, it seems like it wasn't a big deal to you.

If you're in a restaurant and the waiter doesn't bring the salad you ordered, are you going to ask him for the salad, or are you going to do nothing and then complain online about how awful the restaurant is for cheating you out of that salad?

Most companies want their customers to be happy and are eager to remedy a mistake. If you don't give them the opportunity to fix their mistake, I don't see how their not fixing it is their fault.

It is semantics because I'm not filing a legal complaint.

Just because others may use the term incorrectly doesn't make your use correct. You're making an accusation of fraud, but from your description that accusation clearly doesn't apply.

B&S is advertising a cheap (money-losing specifically) product, it's not available, and they try to sell you something else instead.

Did they advertise a cheap mini that turned out not to be available? If the answer to that is no, it's not bait and switch. Period.

Did they advertise a machine that came with leopard for free, then tell you when you got to the store that it wasn't available and you'd have to pay more for it? If the answer to that is no, it's not bait and switch. Period.

I don't get why you're so insistent on sticking with a term that a number have people have pointed out is incorrect. What's so bad about just saying "They pressured me to buy something I didn't want" or "They said the disk was in there but it wasn't"?

motulist

Nov 1, 2007, 08:34 AM

saltyzoo, don't worry about the people arguing against your opinion. I think they're angry not because you're wrong about the substance of situation, but because you were exaggerating your take on the situation and coming on overly strong in condemning the salesman's actions.

To those that are arguing against saltyzoo, I think you're right in saying he was exaggerating and calling him on his hyperbole, but he does have some legitimate reason to be annoyed. Part of his complain is just based on his subjective opinion of how he likes his shopping experiences to be, so you can't really argue against a persons opinion. But more importantly, the guy told him that inside the box was an installer disk for the brand new OS, and there wasn't. I know I'd be pretty annoyed if that happened to me, and I bet you'd be annoyed if it happened to you.

I think you've all made your point that he was unfairly exaggerating the situation, and clearly he was, but that's because for legitimate reasons he was pissed at the time he wrote his comment.

In my opinion, this thread has run its course.

saltyzoo

Nov 1, 2007, 08:52 AM

I'm talking specifically about the missing Leopard disk. If it truly is a big deal, you can call them up and tell them they need to send you the missing disk. If you don't care enough to even try to get that disk, it seems like it wasn't a big deal to you.

It was important because my wife needed a computer and I had one evening to get it set up for her to use the next day to do her work. Without the disk I could not do the job completely or correctly.

It is not important enough to go back to the store because I received Leopard in the mail for my MBP the very next day - thereby making it unnecessary to get the disk - but the damage was already done by not having the software I purchased and was told I was given when I needed it.

If you're in a restaurant and the waiter doesn't bring the salad you ordered, are you going to ask him for the salad, or are you going to do nothing and then complain online about how awful the restaurant is for cheating you out of that salad? A more accurate comparison would be if you went to a drive through, got back on the interstate and noticed your fries weren't in the bag after you were already 5 miles down the road.... The damage is done, no point in going back. But you are still out your fries when you wanted them (and paid for them).

Most companies want their customers to be happy and are eager to remedy a mistake. If you don't give them the opportunity to fix their mistake, I don't see how their not fixing it is their fault. Just as I wouldn't fault McDonald's because a clerk at one store forgot my fries, I'm not faulting Apple, so I guess we agree.

I think you've all made your point that he was unfairly exaggerating the situation, and clearly he was, but that's because for legitimate reasons he was pissed at the time he wrote his comment.

In my opinion, this thread has run its course.

I agree with both these statements. Well, except for the "unfairly" part. I think I was more than fair. Exaggeration I'll give you. I even considered asking a mod to close the thread, but my amusement at some of the vitriolic posts that are still being posted stopped me. I really do find it humorous that people think it's wrong for me to have used my MBP disc to install Leopard on a machine that was supposed to come with it. LOL that's funny stuff.

CashGap

Nov 1, 2007, 09:10 AM

"I think you've been a bit harsh here."

Sorry, for a minute I thought he was a harmless Apple Store employee that we could tee off on! Gotta keep straight who's actions are OK to exaggerate and misinterpret, and whose aren't.

PPPS> I held off on any name-calling, like "Used Car Salesmen", and held off on redefining any legal terms, and on accusing anyone of any crimes... harsh I guess...

saltyzoo

Nov 1, 2007, 09:15 AM

milo

Nov 1, 2007, 09:25 AM

A more accurate comparison would be if you went to a drive through, got back on the interstate and noticed your fries weren't in the bag after you were already 5 miles down the road.... The damage is done, no point in going back. But you are still out your fries when you wanted them (and paid for them).

But in this case, you think it's too much of a burden to make one phone call to apple and ask them to mail you a disk?

I agree with both these statements. Well, except for the "unfairly" part. I think I was more than fair.

Funny, I think it's a stretch to call false accusations of consumer fraud "fair". But I guess you have your own interpretation of what the term "fair" means as well.

saltyzoo

Nov 1, 2007, 09:29 AM

But in this case, you think it's too much of a burden to make one phone call to apple and ask them to mail you a disk?

yeah, it's a pointless call. I'm really confused why you would say that. Are you sure you've been reading what I've been writing?

Funny, I think it's a stretch to call false accusations of consumer fraud "fair". But I guess you have your own interpretation of what the term "fair" means as well.

I've never accused anyone of fraud. Not once.

milo

Nov 1, 2007, 09:37 AM

Bait and switch is a form of consumer fraud.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait_and_switch

So, yeah. You made a false accusation of fraud.

saltyzoo

Nov 1, 2007, 09:40 AM

We disagree. That's allowed right?

milo

Nov 1, 2007, 09:45 AM

We disagree. That's allowed right?

Well, we don't really disagree. This isn't a difference of opinion.

You're using a term incorrectly, and as a result, are continuing to make false accusations.

If you're tired of your error being corrected, I'd recommend stop making that error.

saltyzoo

Nov 1, 2007, 09:47 AM

peeaanuut

Nov 1, 2007, 09:56 AM

When I bought my mini my salesman was the same way, but I didnt concider it bait and switch. I had decided on the low end mini but had a few questions. He tried the superdrive upsale, which I expected. However I had an external DVD-Burner that was already dual layer and he said that should work. he tried the more ram thing, but I told him I had planned to get ram somewhere else.

he offered the upsales, good salesman, but he didnt push, even better salesman. However, when I went back to get my wireless mighty mouse a few weeks later, he called me on not taking back when I got the mini and said "I knew you would be back". I took the jab as a joke, which it was.

I think the problem is that people put a higher standard on Apple. While you can do that with the product, the store employees are just people. Apple isnt teaching them to be rude, nasty or "used car salesman"like, but if they are already like that when they get hired, it is what it is.

I say boohoo to the OP and take your lumps. You allowed yourself to fooled on the Leopard disc and you took offense at being upsold because you think you know better than the sales guy did. No bait and switch, just a overblown ego on a customer and a not 100% perfect sales person.

saltyzoo

Nov 1, 2007, 10:00 AM

You allowed yourself to fooled on the Leopard disc Huh?

peeaanuut

Nov 1, 2007, 10:09 AM

sportsnut

Nov 1, 2007, 10:14 AM

saltyzoo

Nov 1, 2007, 10:16 AM

what product have you ever purchased that came in that manor? Even if it is something that says it "includes" something, I open the box at the store to make sure everything is in there. Or at least in the parking lot (part of that is that I am inpatient). You assumed the salesman was correct (even though you doubted everything else he was doing) and didnt check for yourself.

You allowed yourself to be fooled.

I see what you meant now, thanks.

I think that's ridiculous. So now, it's my fault I was the victim of shoddy work? Don't blame the guy getting paid to do the work, blame me for not checking up on him?

No, despite the way I've been painted on this thread by some, I'm not that mistrusting to go digging in the box to verify everything is there.

Ding Ding Ding ! We have a winner folks :)

Maybe the OP should have just sent his wife to pick up her own mac. ;)

So if you are robbed at gunpoint, it's your fault for not having had a bigger gun with you?

Sorry, but blaming me for the disc not being there is pretty pathetic.

Feverish Flux

Nov 1, 2007, 10:17 AM

Am I summing it up right by saying that you think the salesman knowingly gave you a box that did not have Leopard in it?

Morphos

Nov 1, 2007, 10:23 AM

I agree with your general assertions, but I think you were a bit rude. There's no need for that.

PS: Spelling words correctly usually helps you seem more mature and worthy of recognition. ;)

Hey cowboy, read it again. The two words you lovingly highlighed were misspelled on purpose, and the third was a quote used multiple times after mine from Wikipedia.

I'm all out of vinegar though. I'm just glad that others could push the agenda of dictionary-loving fact-friendly folks like myself. Being certain of the truthiness of your own personal definition of words only works for the clever.

milo

Nov 1, 2007, 10:25 AM

roland.g

Nov 1, 2007, 10:30 AM

I worked for Apple for over a year about 5 years ago now doing retail sales. Now I will say that b/c of the dot com economy bust, the Apple employees at the time were and older, more computer educated, and more tactful bunch. Since then they have had a lot of turnover which is understandable and for the most part their current employees simply do not know as much and cannot be expected to be the world's most rounded sales force.

All that said, anyone attempting to buy a low end Mini or MacBook should be made aware (and maybe he didn't do it right) that even if you don't think you will, you most likely will want a superdrive and it is worth the extra money, and adds to resale (which minis do quite well with). As soon as someone plays with iMovie, not having a SD and iDVD is a bummer. Putting data even on a 4.7GB rather than 700MB disc is also a big plus. And it is something every purchaser should consider.

Honestly what drew you to the 1.83 vs. the 2.0 with superdrive, I don't know. Maybe you really don't need it, want it. I know you have a MBP, but transferring projects to burn is a pain. Get what you want, I'm sure you did. And if the salesperson didn't use the best presentation in trying to "upsell" you to a $200 more machine, just write it off as poor tact, but I don't think the intention was malicious.

As far as the Leo drop-in, there is always a lot of confusion at OS release time as to what will happen. I personally saw it with 10.3 Panther. On release day we were hearing both that they were and weren't going in the boxes b/c it seemed like the decision was so last minute, and that's just unfortunate. I'm sure you can either get the disk still, or get an up to date which while it's $10, isn't going to kill you either. Best thing to do is to call Apple support, explain it, or go down to the store and they will give you a free one.

Maui

Nov 1, 2007, 10:31 AM

OP -- I think you have been seriously wronged by a huge conspiracy at Apple, and all of these people telling you to ignore this most grievous offense are just part of the conspiracy. It's good you have so much time and energy to pursue this. Some people would be stupid enough to just, you know, call the store and say "hey you forgot my Leopard CD," but being combative and defensive is a much better way, since obviously people are out to get you.

You should hurry and file the lawsuit, today hopefully. Don't put up with this sort of horrible treatment. Try to get punitive damages for all of the incredible harm you have suffered.

saltyzoo

Nov 1, 2007, 10:35 AM

Not only do I disagree with you, the dictionary disagrees with you.

People who are wrong generally believe that they are right. I'm glad you're OK with that.

Bait: An enticement; a temptation.

Switch: To shift, transfer, or divert

Both definitions right out of the dictionary. They agree with my opinion perfectly.

I agree that the definition of the legal term "bait and switch" does not meet my assertion of what happened, and I have agreed to that from the beginning.

But see, I can have a different point of view without claiming you have no right to have yours. That's the difference between us at this point.

slu

Nov 1, 2007, 10:42 AM

I don't agree that I'm mis-using the term. I believe there are multiple meanings for the term, and that mine is acceptable to many people that aren't nit-picking or over defensive (I'll bet I'd not got one negative comment on my use of the term if I'd applied it to a Dell salesman, wanna take that bet?). I am not using the legal term.

You disagree with me on the above. I'm ok with that.

You shouldn't be OK with that because you are wrong. I know I am beating a dead horse here and wasting my time, but just because you believe the you know the definition of something doesn't make it true. I believe the Earth is flat. We can disagree on that, but it still makes me wrong. And individually defining the two word that make up the phrase doesn't define the phrase either. That is why the phrase has it's own definition in the dictionary.

And you never answered the person who asked you why, if missing Leopard disk is such a big deal, why won't you spend the 5 minutes it would take to get one sent to you? If you are so bothered by it, it doesn't make any sense not to get Apple to make it right. And if it is no big deal to you since you have another disk you are going to use, why all the drama? I am starting to think you just like raising a little hell around here.

My friend bought a new Mac right after iLife '08 came out. He even bought it online and not in the store! It was advertised to come with iLife '08 or a disk. Guess what? It was missing. You know what he did? He did not come to the boards and start a "used car salesman" thread...he called Apple that day, spent less than 5 minutes on the phone and had his disk in 2 days. Sure it was a very minor inconvenience, but he was satisfied with the speedy resolution of the problem. If he never called and complained about getting ripped off by Apple, he'd have gotten no sympathy from me either.

I am not saying you can't complain, but it is tough to get people to take your complaints seriously when don't even give Apple a chance to make it right. If you called Apple or went back in store and asked for the missing Leopard disk and they refused to give it to you, you would get tons of support here. But since you did nothing but choose to complain, and you chose to do it in an exaggerated and over-the-top manner, you are getting the reactions you currently see.

saltyzoo

Nov 1, 2007, 10:44 AM

And you never answered the person who asked you why, if missing Leopard disk is such a big deal, why won't you spend the 5 minutes it would take to get one sent to you? If you are so bothered by it, it doesn't make any sense not to get Apple to make it right. And if it is no big deal to you since you have another disk you are going to use, why all the drama? I am starting to think you just like raising a little hell around here.

I have, in fact, answered this question no less than 3 times on this thread.

You don't agree that my experience was like going to buy a used car. I think it was. Ok, move along.

RCGMac

Nov 1, 2007, 10:50 AM

roland.g

Nov 1, 2007, 10:54 AM

So basically instead of trying to see it another way and actually find solutions to your problem, you really just want everyone to agree with you that Apple salespeople have an agenda and are slime, out to put one over on all the unsuspecting customers they can.

milo

Nov 1, 2007, 10:57 AM

Bait: An enticement; a temptation.

Switch: To shift, transfer, or divert

Both definitions right out of the dictionary. They agree with my opinion perfectly.

I agree that the definition of the legal term "bait and switch" does not meet my assertion of what happened, and I have agreed to that from the beginning.

But see, I can have a different point of view without claiming you have no right to have yours. That's the difference between us at this point.

This has nothing to do with "rights". You have the right to say there are thirteen inches in a foot. And I have the right to point out that you are wrong.

I'm anxiously looking forward to your angry rant when you go to a restaurant, and on ordering the surf and turf, aren't brought a plate containing an ocean wave and a clump of sod. And all these years I thought words could be assembled into things called "phrases" instead of just read literally one at a time with no regard for context...thanks for finally clearing that up...

saltyzoo

Nov 1, 2007, 10:59 AM

I am also wondering if you think that the salesman, or the Apple Store forgot the disk on purpose? If that was the case then you would have some grounds for this "bait and switch" claim. My common sense tells me that it was just accidentally left out of the box in the rush of adding the new disks to the box.

At the moment I opened the box, after just coming from a frustrating purchase where the salesman lost my trust, yeah my feeling was that he knew it wasn't there. I still don't know the truth, but given time my reaction is less emphatic.

I have no "legal" bait and switch claim because I have no doubt Apple would provide the disc therefore it's a moot point. And I've never claimed anything otherwise.

So basically instead of trying to see it another way and actually find solutions to your problem, you really just want everyone to agree with you that Apple salespeople have an agenda and are slime, out to put one over on all the unsuspecting customers they can.

Not at all. I never asked anyone to agree with me. I'm simply defending my description of the experience I had.

I'm not asking for a solution to my problem. Haven't once asked for one. I'm not expecting my next visit to a used car salesman to be pleasant either. I am, however, disappointed that going to my local apple store will instill a similar feeling of dread. But, guess what, that's my problem. I'm not asking for a solution to that either. :p

slu

Nov 1, 2007, 10:59 AM

I have, in fact, answered this question no less than 3 times on this thread.

You don't agree that my experience was like going to buy a used car. I think it was. Ok, move along.

Where? Where you say this?

It was important because my wife needed a computer and I had one evening to get it set up for her to use the next day to do her work. Without the disk I could not do the job completely or correctly.

It is not important enough to go back to the store because I received Leopard in the mail for my MBP the very next day - thereby making it unnecessary to get the disk - but the damage was already done by not having the software I purchased and was told I was given when I needed it.

So you are saying you wife could not do her job without Leopard? Since when was Leopard a requirement for Word? Where is the "damage" exactly?

As you said, I think it is time for me to move on, but I just wanted to add one more thing: I have bought several used cars in my time and have nothing but good experiences. Forget about Apple...now you are unfairly characterizing used car salesmen! :D

RCGMac

Nov 1, 2007, 11:04 AM

At the moment I opened the box, after just coming from a frustrating purchase where the salesman lost my trust, yeah my feeling was that he knew it wasn't there. I still don't know the truth, but given time my reaction is less emphatic.

I have no "legal" bait and switch claim because I have no doubt Apple would provide the disc therefore it's a moot point. And I've never claimed anything otherwise.

Ok, I was just wondering, I am glad time has softened your view a bit. I still doubt the salesman would even know which boxes had the disc in it and which didn't, there is also a fairly reasonable chance that he wasn't even working on the shift they dropped the discs in.
Haha, I can see it now, a group of boxes for the "good customers" with Leopard in it, and a group of boxes for the "bad customers" with Leopard left out. :p

Feverish Flux

Nov 1, 2007, 11:06 AM

At the moment I opened the box, after just coming from a frustrating purchase where the salesman lost my trust, yeah my feeling was that he knew it wasn't there.

What exactly did he have to gain by this? What was the motive?

saltyzoo

Nov 1, 2007, 11:08 AM

Where? Where you say this? Not my job to train Apple salesmen, or read for you. ;)

So you are saying you wife could not do her job without Leopard? Since when was Leopard a requirement for Word? Where is the "damage" exactly?
Uh, I paid for Leopard and didn't get it. I was not told I'd have to make another trip or wait for it. In fact, he told me that I should install Leopard as soon as I opened the box. Sounds like damage to me.

As you said, I think it is time for me to move on I meant to the next subject, not that you shouldn't participate in the thread. Just wanted to clarify.

but I just wanted to add one more thing: I have bought several used cars in my time and have nothing but good experiences. Forget about Apple...now you are unfairly characterizing used car salesmen! :D

Now you are on to something!!! I'd better call my lawyer. I wonder if the mods will bury this thread for me? :p

saltyzoo

Nov 1, 2007, 11:12 AM

What exactly did he have to gain by this? What was the motive?

People do things all the time with no motive or gain. Some idiot pee'd on the floor of my office bathroom today (in a corporate bank building). Did he gain anything or have a motive for doing it? I doubt it.

My thought at the time I opened the box was that I wonder if they were selling Leopard so fast they were making people go back for it to weed out those that didn't really want it that bad to conserve their stock. But, I've resisted posting that thus far as I haven't the tiniest shred of evidence to support such a claim. But it is conceivable. More likely, if it was intentional it was for some reason I'd never guess in a millions years anyway.

Haha, I can see it now, a group of boxes for the "good customers" with Leopard in it, and a group of boxes for the "bad customers" with Leopard left out. If this is true I'm in real trouble. :D

milo

Nov 1, 2007, 11:15 AM

My thought at the time I opened the box was that I wonder if they were selling Leopard so fast they were making people go back for it to weed out those that didn't really want it that bad to conserve their stock. But, I've resisted posting that thus far as I haven't the tiniest shred of evidence to support such a claim. But it is conceivable. More likely, if it was intentional it was for some reason I'd never guess in a millions years anyway.

Nope. The drop-in is a completely different version of the disk than the one for sale.

roland.g

Nov 1, 2007, 11:23 AM

I'm simply defending my description of the experience I had.

to a bunch of strangers on the internet?

I'm not asking for a solution to my problem. Haven't once asked for one. I'm not expecting my next visit to a used car salesman to be pleasant either. I am, however, disappointed that going to my local apple store will instill a similar feeling of dread. But, guess what, that's my problem. I'm not asking for a solution to that either. :p

Well try to forgive and forget, and maybe your next visit will surprise you and change that feeling. Being predisposed probably won't help. But then again I'm trying to help. And you'd made it clear that's not what you want. Is this your only bad experience or is it a pattern now that has put a sour taste in your mouth. Don't let one person on one day ruin something that really shouldn't be that big of a deal. See there I go again.

Story: did I get burned for being an early adopter. Wanted a new iMac, wanted Leopard, didn't plan on getting an Apple TV. Leopard delayed, no new iMac. So the week they came out, I bought an Apple TV. Great device. 2 months later, 160GB drive came out $100 more. I had the 40GB version. Apple never updates products that soon. I felt a bit ripped off. Was upset a couple days, sent Apple some feedback, got over it. Had no intention of buying an iPhone, they came out, 2 weeks later still no iMacs, so I played with the phone and bought one. Then the big price drop. Did I feel ripped off. Not really, but there was a big outcry, so I got my $100 credit. Had already bought a new iMac. Used it to get a bluetooth headset.

saltyzoo

Nov 1, 2007, 12:11 PM

to a bunch of strangers on the internet?

What can I say, I'm stubborn and opinionated. :cool:

CalBoy

Nov 1, 2007, 01:32 PM

So accusing me of violating the EULA when you know very well I'm not is ok because a lot of other people on the forum are doing it?
Had you taken the Leopard disk that was intended for the mini and loaded it onto your mbp, that would have been a violation of the EULA. Either way, I never accused you of violating it; I was just trying to warn you that the potential was there. You need to learn how to be less defensive, esspecially on an internet forum.

Hence my use of quotes around the word crime.
I think we can both agree that your use of quotes around the word 'crime' was intended to reflect sarcasm at my point about violating a contract.

My purchase of the mini grants me a license for the software. What physical disk I use to exercise that license is not relevant. No, I cannot use the disk to install on a machine that I do not have a valid license to use it on. But I'm not doing that, now am I?
It is relevant. The disk that comes with the mini is intended for the mini. Similarly, the Tiger disk that came with your mini can't be used on a different Mac even after/if your mini dies.

BTW, The disk I received in the mail yesterday has no mention whatsoever of a license for a specific machine. Nowhere in any of the packaging does it state anything except that it is not for resale and is intended for use bundled with hardware. I did not violate that at all. I used it only on hardware that should have been bundled with this software. Whether they put the disk in the box, I lost the disk, or the disk was abducted by aliens, or whatever is not relevant. I'm legally licensed to use the software on that machine.
I have a feeling that Apple sent you a brand new single license copy. If you checkout Apple's page on the upgrade (whether free or $10) you'll see that there are special provisions.

I'm only attacking you in response for your attacks on me. lol Calling me a hater, telling my I'm unreasonable, etc. I've not attacked anyone that has simply disagreed with me.
I never attacked your personally. Tearing your illogical and badly written story to shreds on its merits doesn't attack you. I'm not one of the posters who has gone around writing "stupid" or something along those lines. Watch who you're accusing.

Nothing in my OP, is illegal, and I never said it was. If I went to Apple and they refused to give me the disk - that would be illegal. I have stated many times on this thread that I'm certain they would give me the disk if I asked. I've already stated I haven't gone to the store about it (and don't intend to) because it's a waste of time. I'm not suggesting that they wouldn't give me the disk. I'm CERTAIN that they would.
Sorry, misworded. I meant to write that what you accused the store rep of doing is illegal (bait-and-switch; not the accusation).

I'M NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT APPLE. I'm complaining about 2 particular apples salesmen in my local retail store that treated me in a way that I feel reflects poorly on Apple.
I never said you were complaining about Apple, but you also can't seem to get beyond the fact that it was an honest mistake. Forgive and forget. You can't hold a grudge against people for too long, esspecially for something they didn't intend to do. However, feel free to complain about the fact that they forgot to put Leopard disks into your box. That's perfectly fine. Things change when you accuse the person of being a "used car salesman who baited and switched me."

LOL I'm the one value judging? That's pretty funny. I'm not the one calling people a hater, and such things. I'm just defending myself and my opinion on what occurred.
I never called you those things. I never even hinted at them. You're the one who tried to imply that I wasn't a "normal person."
"I think you've been a bit harsh here."

Sorry, for a minute I thought he was a harmless Apple Store employee that we could tee off on! Gotta keep straight who's actions are OK to exaggerate and misinterpret, and whose aren't.

PPPS> I held off on any name-calling, like "Used Car Salesmen", and held off on redefining any legal terms, and on accusing anyone of any crimes... harsh I guess...
I love this post. 2 thumbs up. :)
I've never accused anyone of fraud. Not once.
Bait-and-switch is a type of consumer fraud, so in fact, you have tried to accuse someone of this.
I don't agree that I'm mis-using the term. I believe there are multiple meanings for the term, and that mine is acceptable to many people that aren't nit-picking or over defensive (I'll bet I'd not got one negative comment on my use of the term if I'd applied it to a Dell salesman, wanna take that bet?). I am not using the legal term.

You disagree with me on the above. I'm ok with that.
You don't have to agree that you're misusing the term, but the fact is you are. You aren't any kind of legal or other authority who can decide these things. The fact is, you used the wrong term, and you don't want to accept that. Face it, you made a mistake using this terminology. Let go of it and move on.
Hey cowboy, read it again. The two words you lovingly highlighed were misspelled on purpose, and the third was a quote used multiple times after mine from Wikipedia.

I'm all out of vinegar though. I'm just glad that others could push the agenda of dictionary-loving fact-friendly folks like myself. Being certain of the truthiness of your own personal definition of words only works for the clever.
I figured you were being sarcastic, but I just thought that if you had put the purposely misspelled words in quotes or something, it would have helped your post flow better. Not trying to attack you or anything (because I largely agreed with your post's points).

saltyzoo

Nov 1, 2007, 02:10 PM

Had you taken the Leopard disk that was intended for the mini and loaded it onto your mbp, that would have been a violation of the EULA. Either way, I never accused you of violating it; I was just trying to warn you that the potential was there. You need to learn how to be less defensive, esspecially on an internet forum. Thank you for your concern. I'm certain you were worried about my immortal soul. ;) Of course, it makes no sense why you would be concerned about that when I've made it clear both machines have legal licenses for Leopard. But, whatever.

I think we can both agree that your use of quotes around the word 'crime' was intended to reflect sarcasm at my point about violating a contract. Well since you like to split hairs lets do. It in fact, IS a crime to pirate software and can be punishable by jail time as well as fines. So there. :p

It is relevant. The disk that comes with the mini is intended for the mini. Similarly, the Tiger disk that came with your mini can't be used on a different Mac even after/if your mini dies. I think I am morally, ethically, and legally abiding by the spirit of the EULA. I doubt any "normal" (that's a joke) person would disagree with me.

I have a feeling that Apple sent you a brand new single license copy. If you checkout Apple's page on the upgrade (whether free or $10) you'll see that there are special provisions. Thanks again for your concern for my moral well-being. I'm all warm and fuzzy. ;)

I never attacked your personally. Tearing your illogical and badly written story to shreds on its merits doesn't attack you. I'm not one of the posters who has gone around writing "stupid" or something along those lines. Watch who you're accusing. My response was not directed soley at you. I had just been attacked by more than one person at the time I wrote that post.

I never said you were complaining about Apple, but you also can't seem to get beyond the fact that it was an honest mistake. Nope, sorry, we don't know that for sure. You can pretend you do all you want, but you don't.

I never called you those things. I never even hinted at them. You're the one who tried to imply that I wasn't a "normal person."
Again, I was not necessarily referring to you specifically. But if you think I'm being unethical or breaking the law because I'm intentionally using one install disc on two computers that I have valid licenses for then that's probably not the view most normal people would take on the situation.

Bait-and-switch is a type of consumer fraud, so in fact, you have tried to accuse someone of this.
No, I have in fact, not done any such thing. I've repeatedly said that what he did was NOT legally bait-and switch.

You don't have to agree that you're misusing the term, but the fact is you are. You aren't any kind of legal or other authority who can decide these things. The fact is, you used the wrong term, and you don't want to accept that. Face it, you made a mistake using this terminology. Let go of it and move on. No, I'm not. You and a few others are insisting that I'm not allowed to use the phrase to mean anything else, and that's just wrong. Perhaps it bothers you that I would do that, but I can use a phrase any way I want. The words Bait and switch describes in a non-legal way what happened. Period. I'll even go so far to say that now that I know my audience, I would avoid using that term if I posted this again. But, I used the words accurately according to the dictionary, so I'm not going to take them back. All I'm going to to is reiterate that I don't mean the legal term by using the phrase.

Forgive and forget. You can't hold a grudge against people for too long, esspecially for something they didn't intend to do. However, feel free to complain about the fact that they forgot to put Leopard disks into your box. That's perfectly fine. Things change when you accuse the person of being a "used car salesman who baited and switched me."
Let me see here. Do I actually think he really is a used car salesman? Maybe he was trying to sell me an Audi. No, I didn't mean he was really a used car salesman any more than I thought he was actually running a full scale bait-and-switch on me. You know, it's just possible I was describing on a web forum HOW IT FELT during my purchase, not filing a factually legal suit against him or trying to start up a posse to lynch him. Maybe, possibly. Ya think?

Virgil-TB2

Nov 1, 2007, 02:11 PM

You weren't "baited" or "switched.":

Neither Apple nor the employee did this. I know you're upset, but that doesn't give you the right to make up new definitions ;)

He didn't trick you. I'm sure he was just trying to tell you that a better model was available just in case you missed it on the floor or didn't know about it. You're being awfully cynical here. ...And you are being completely naive. You are also wrong.

By the definition in your own post, the customer was indeed the victim of a "bait and switch."

The customer was offered an "upgrade" to a product he already stated his intention to purchase. The "upgrade" turned out not to be an upgrade at all but an entirely different, and more expensive computer. This is the exact definition of "bait and switch" as you yourself posted.

I think the problem is a lot of young people are getting confused about the definition of "upgrade." An upgrade implies that the same product with better features is on offer, not an entirely different product.

In the last year or two it has become massively popular to misuse the "upgrade" word and several current commercials (at least in my part of the world), are using the word in it's new context, but it hasn't even been put in the slang dictionary yet, let alone the standard Oxford.

An entirely different computer is simply not an "upgrade" to the computer the person was trying to buy.

It's ... well it's an entirely different computer! :)

CashGap

Nov 1, 2007, 02:15 PM

"The customer was offered an "upgrade" to a product he already stated his intention to purchase. The "upgrade" turned out not to be an upgrade at all but an entirely different, and more expensive computer. This is the exact definition of "bait and switch" as you yourself posted. "

Thus, everyone who has ever uttered the phrase "Would you like to supersize your combo meal" has committed bait-and-switch. It is NOT the 20oz soda with an extra 10oz of soda crammed in the cup it is (hide the women and children, cover the ears of the sensitive) AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT CUP OF SODA!

Thankfully, you're wrong. If we lock up the McDonald's counter folks and the Apple Store people, who's next?!?!?!

saltyzoo

Nov 1, 2007, 02:18 PM

And you are being completely naive. You are also wrong.

By the definition in your own post, the customer was indeed the victim of a "bait and switch."

The customer was offered an "upgrade" to a product he already stated his intention to purchase. The "upgrade" turned out not to be an upgrade at all but an entirely different, and more expensive computer. This is the exact definition of "bait and switch" as you yourself posted.

I think the problem is a lot of young people are getting confused about the definition of "upgrade." An upgrade implies that the same product with better features is on offer, not an entirely different product.

In the last year or two it has become massively popular to misuse the "upgrade" word and several current commercials (at least in my part of the world), are using the word in it's new context, but it hasn't even been put in the slang dictionary yet, let alone the standard Oxford.

An entirely different computer is simply not an "upgrade" to the computer the person was trying to buy.

It's ... well it's an entirely different computer! :)

Thank you. I agree, but I still don't think it rises to the legal definition because they allowed me to purchase the lower model. If they had said they were "out" of that model or somehow did not allow me to buy it, then it would meet the legal definition.

But, I think it's close enough for me to be allowed to use the term on a web forum describing my experience. :cool:

CalBoy

Nov 1, 2007, 02:21 PM

Thank you for your concern. I'm certain you were worried about my immortal soul. ;) Of course, it makes no sense why you would be concerned about that when I've made it clear both machines have legal licenses for Leopard. But, whatever.

Well since you like to split hairs lets do. It in fact, IS a crime to pirate software and can be punishable by jail time as well as fines. So there. :p

I think I am morally, ethically, and legally abiding by the spirit of the EULA. I doubt any "normal" (that's a joke) person would disagree with me.

Thanks again for your concern for my moral well-being. I'm all warm and fuzzy. ;)

My response was not directed soley at you. I had just been attacked by more than one person at the time I wrote that post.

Nope, sorry, we don't know that for sure. You can pretend you do all you want, but you don't.

Again, I was not necessarily referring to you specifically. But if you think I'm being unethical or breaking the law because I'm intentionally using one install disc on two computers that I have valid licenses for then that's probably not the view most normal people would take on the situation.

No, I have in fact, not done any such thing. I've repeatedly said that what he did was NOT legally bait-and switch.

No, I'm not. You and a few others are insisting that I'm not allowed to use the phrase to mean anything else, and that's just wrong. Perhaps it bothers you that I would do that, but I can use a phrase any way I want. The words Bait and switch describes in a non-legal way what happened. Period. I'll even go so far to say that now that I know my audience, I would avoid using that term if I posted this again. But, I used the words accurately according to the dictionary, so I'm not going to take them back. All I'm going to to is reiterate that I don't mean the legal term by using the phrase.

Let me see here. Do I actually think he really is a used car salesman? Maybe he was trying to sell me an Audi. No, I didn't mean he was really a used car salesman any more than I thought he was actually running a full scale bait-and-switch on me. You know, it's just possible I was describing on a web forum HOW IT FELT during my purchase, not filing a factually legal suit against him or trying to start up a posse to lynch him. Maybe, possibly. Ya think?

And you are being completely naive. You are also wrong.

By the definition in your own post, the customer was indeed the victim of a "bait and switch."

The customer was offered an "upgrade" to a product he already stated his intention to purchase. The "upgrade" turned out not to be an upgrade at all but an entirely different, and more expensive computer. This is the exact definition of "bait and switch" as you yourself posted.

I think the problem is a lot of young people are getting confused about the definition of "upgrade." An upgrade implies that the same product with better features is on offer, not an entirely different product.

In the last year or two it has become massively popular to misuse the "upgrade" word and several current commercials (at least in my part of the world), are using the word in it's new context, but it hasn't even been put in the slang dictionary yet, let alone the standard Oxford.

An entirely different computer is simply not an "upgrade" to the computer the person was trying to buy.

It's ... well it's an entirely different computer! :)

I have better things to do than perpetuate this pointless discussion, so I'm going to just leave it at this:

OP, I can understand why you were mad at the guy for forgetting to check the box to make sure that it had Leopard, but I don't think he had any intention of doing so. I don't think he was being malicious, and I know for certain that he didn't defraud you in anyway that's close enough to fit any definition of "bait-and-switch." You can go on thinking that you can use that term, but in fact, you've used it incorrectly. The dictionary, the legal system, and vernacular usage all disagree with you.

In the end, I'm glad you got your disk and that your wife is enjoying (I presume) her new mini. Let go of this experience and move on. It will be better for you and for everyone else.

milo

Nov 1, 2007, 02:46 PM

No, I have in fact, not done any such thing. I've repeatedly said that what he did was NOT legally bait-and switch.

But yet you've repeatedly said it is bait and switch...that sure sounds like you've made that particular false accusation.

No, I'm not. You and a few others are insisting that I'm not allowed to use the phrase to mean anything else, and that's just wrong.

You can use a phrase to mean anything else. If you want to use "monkey" to mean "dog", go right ahead. But just don't be surprised when people point out that you are wrong and correct you. If you actually want people to interpret your words correctly, you're better off using them correctly in the first place.

I still don't get why you're so insistent on clinging to a "meaning" that a number of posters have repeatedly shown to be wrong. Why don't you just admit it and move on?

The customer was offered an "upgrade" to a product he already stated his intention to purchase. The "upgrade" turned out not to be an upgrade at all but an entirely different, and more expensive computer. This is the exact definition of "bait and switch" as you yourself posted.

What? The definition of bait and switch means advertising a cheap model that isn't available. In this case, the mini was available, wasn't it? You really need to read the definition again, you seem to have completely misunderstood it. This was just a simple case of a salesman trying to upsell. Sure, it can be annoying, but it's not B&S and it's completely legal.

saltyzoo

Nov 1, 2007, 02:55 PM

If you want to use "monkey" to mean "dog", go right ahead.

Bait means bait and switch means switch. I was given bait, and it was switched to something else. I'm not changing the meanings of the words. I'm just not applying the legal definition to them, I'm applying the common usage definition to them. That's not changing monkey to mean dog.

Morphos

Nov 1, 2007, 03:04 PM

The customer was offered an "upgrade" to a product he already stated his intention to purchase. The "upgrade" turned out not to be an upgrade at all but an entirely different, and more expensive computer. This is the exact definition of "bait and switch" as you yourself posted.

Oh, sweet zombie raptor jesus. This guy can't be serious can he? We have 6 friggin' pages of why 'ye old bait-n-switche' is neither bait nor switch, nor whatever the hell we want to define it as and this happens?

Bravo Virgil. There truly is no end in sight to this. I'm beginning to think that the guy who wet the floor at Salty's office was baiting and switching him.

Bait means bait and switch means switch. I was given bait, and it was switched to something else. I'm not changing the meanings of the words. I'm just not applying the legal definition to them, I'm applying the common usage definition to them. That's not changing monkey to mean dog.

Wow. Like OMGWTF wow. Lets step through this... again.
Also, keep in mind that every computer we demo'd had Leopard on it. Can you say "bait-and-switch"?

This all refers to Leopard, right? Centers around that? Then the bait has to be promises of Leopard. Then you were switched to a lack of Leopard, right? That's the platform you've chose?

Sweet mother Mary god of ****. THAT'S NOT BAIT AND SWITCH. Where's the underpriced and unavailable sales item offered as an alluring bait? Where's the offer of a higher-priced item you were switched to?