New PowerBooks on Tuesday. [Archive]

Freg3000

Sep 14, 2003, 01:06 PM

There were 3 15" PowerBook models before MWSF: 867 MHz w/Combo, 1 Ghz w/Super, and a BTO 1 Ghz w/Combo. However, a 1999 to 2999 price range for only 15" is very wide (unless they are G5s). I don't believe that though, so would agree with Arn that this seems to be for the 15" and 17" PowerBooks only.

Perhaps the 12" PowerBook won't be upgraded because it is selling so well already, or because it can't be upgraded due to heat concerns. Just about 36 hours to go.....

Edit:
Originally posted by mxpiazza
i'd be VERY surprised if the laptops are g5's... lets be realistic here people, these things are simply waaaay too hot to be realistic laptop processors at the current production processes and speeds. however, if they do end up coming out with a g5 powerbook... my 1.8 g5 has a 30-day guarennteed return period.

True-at these clock speeds. Who says they couldn't make a 1.2 or 1.4 GHz G5? The G5 is cooler than the G4 at lower clock speeds. These prices without being pegged to certain models certainly makes it interesting.

psxndc

Sep 14, 2003, 01:09 PM

I'm glad this is happening early in the morning. Since my surgery is at 2:30 PM EST, if something goes wrong, at least I can die saying I finally saw the PB updates.

-p

PS It is minor surgery (abdominal hernia) so don't anyone go getting worried.

bennetsaysargh

Sep 14, 2003, 01:10 PM

i guees it is true! another week, another powerbook rumpr! wow, they didn't wait for even a day into the week for this one:p

yujini

Sep 14, 2003, 01:12 PM

With those pricings, there's no way it would be G5s.
I'd think apple would try to make as much profits
for the new g5 powerbooks.

IF it were 2 15inch pbooks and a 17inch,
then 17inch actually gets another price drop?

I'd guess that they'd go back to the original pricing
before the price drop if the G5s were in them.

XnavxeMiyyep

Sep 14, 2003, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by Freg3000

True-at these clock speeds. Who says they couldn't make a 1.2 or 1.4 GHz G5? The G5 is cooler than the G4 at lower clock speeds. These prices without being pegged to certain models certainly makes interesting. If the G5 truly is cooler than the G4 at those clock speeds, then I don't see why they wouldn't put it into at least the 15" and 17". It may be too big for the 12" at this point.

daveschroeder

Sep 14, 2003, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by mxpiazza
i'd be VERY surprised if the laptops are g5's...lets be realistic here people, these things are simply waaaay too hot to be realistic laptop processors at the current production processes and speeds.

Wrong. This is an incorrect statement that, for some reason, keeps getting repeated. As with all incorrect statements, saying it over and over again doesn't make it true.

According to IBM's PowerPC 970 documentation (http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/A1387A29AC1C2AE087256C5200611780/$file/PPC970_MPF2002.pdf), a 1.2 GHz PowerPC 970 comes in at 19W power dissipation (typical), while a 1.8 GHz PowerPC 970 comes in at 42W.

Meanwhile, Motorola's PowerPC 74xx documentation (http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/taxonomy.jsp?nodeId=03C1TR046708718653) indicates that a 1 GHz PowerPC 7455, the latest processor about which data is available, dissipates 35.5W (typical) (and 50W max).[1]

Power dissipation (typical) per MHz:

PowerPC 7455: 0.0355W
PowerPC 970 (1.1v): 0.0158W
PowerPC 970 (1.3v): 0.0233W

It's easy to see that, clock for clock, the PowerPC 970 consumes much less power - and therefore dissipates less heat - than the PowerPC 74xx. The current 1.8 GHz G5 numbers aren't significantly higher than a 1.0 GHz G4...it's therefore not hard to imagine the G5 making its debut in a portable machine in the future.

That said, the new machines on Tuesday will likely not be G5s, but it's not because the G5's are "waaay too hot", when in fact just the opposite it true.

[1] Yes, the prevailing rumors indicate that the PowerPC 7457 will be used in any new PowerBook, and will presumably consume less power, and therefore dissipate less heat, per clock. However, since the clock speed is likely being increased, total power dissipation is likely to remain similar.

eric67

Sep 14, 2003, 01:19 PM

What I think, and from my personal info is that the 12"GHz will be updated but nothind dramatical; whereas the 17" will probably get the 1.25 GHz, since there is enough space for improving the cooling system (it will most probably be a 7455 rev at the beginning before it goes 7457...); concerning the 15", then I have heard 2 types of rumors; the few 7457 processor ready will be put in the 15" @ 1.25GHz to allow speed jump without scarifying the battery life. so, my view :
15" @ 1GHz
15" @ 1.25GHz
17" @1.25GHZ
the 12" will get FirWire2, USB2 and maybe backlighted keyboard, as for all the 3 others.
let see in 36 hours now, if my guess from personal info were right

NicoMan

Sep 14, 2003, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by Freg3000
Perhaps the 12" PowerBook won't be upgraded because it is selling so well already, or because it can't be upgraded due to heat concerns. Just about 36 hours to go.....
That could be the case if Moto can't deliver the 7457s. The 15" and 17" might be OK with a warmer chip, but the 12" is a no-go.
Only a day and a half till the answer.

eric67

Sep 14, 2003, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by XnavxeMiyyep
If the G5 truly is cooler than the G4 at those clock speeds, then I don't see why they wouldn't put it into at least the 15" and 17". It may be too big for the 12" at this point.

they have to design a brand new mother board, if they do so, they want the latest technology (and even the future ones) to be included. in addition to desgin new chipset for the G5
I will be very (positively) suprised if Apple can intro a G5 laptop less than 3-4 month after announcing a G5 desktop....

hmmm

Sep 14, 2003, 01:27 PM

3 upgrades, 3 models, face it, it's going to be throughout the whole ranger, I mean, why buy a 12" PB when you can get a 900 G3 ibook for so much less with just as much performance (check out the benchmarks) - also both the 12 and 15 is unavailable for most Apple resellers, so it has to be those, especially when you can buy a 17" in just a few days - well whatever it is, I'm looking forward to tuesday!

XnavxeMiyyep

Sep 14, 2003, 01:27 PM

AppleMatt

Sep 14, 2003, 01:28 PM

:mad:bhgfuisdgifsmfkldsnkfldnklsn

In my arrogance I told myself that the 12" PowerBooks would not be updated, so instead just (4 hours ago) dropped £210 on a 20GiB iPod (god bless educational discount). My 12" works perfectly, but if the new one's have L3 cache...:(

Oh well, it's a nifty little gadget.

AppleMatt

natebailey11

Sep 14, 2003, 01:31 PM

Look at the pricing now... 2 15's and one 17 that start at 1999 and go up to 2999. Doesn't look like much of a change to me...

Now let's just hope that there is a big change in the actual models!

macphoria

Sep 14, 2003, 01:35 PM

So if $1999 - $2999 price range refers to two 15" and one 17", does that mean they'll lower the price on 17"? Maybe 17" without SuperDrive?

utilizer

Sep 14, 2003, 01:35 PM

Here's what I think will happen, if Apple truly wants this to be the year of the notebook:

15 in. - G4 7457 1 Ghz
15 in. - G4 7457 1.25 Ghz
17 in. - G4 7457 Dual 1.25 Ghz
(Otherwise, 1.33 Ghz for the the singles, if no duals)
The disparities between the speed of the G4 and G5 is significant enough to warrant this change. I mean, I would expect the top of the line PowerBook to match the performance of the mid-grade G5 Tower (1.8 Ghz). Anything less than that is completely unacceptable, but I'll buy it since my Pismo, even with the upgrade from NewerTech, is getting long in the tooth. I still need portability after all this time and simply can't afford one the G5s.
It's waaay too early for a G5 laptop, besides IBM's fab can barely supply enough as it is now with the demand for the towers.
Just imagine what the pent up demand will be for the 15 in. -- That's why they won't be duals; get 'em out the door as fast as you can! ;)

hmmm

Sep 14, 2003, 01:36 PM

eric67

Sep 14, 2003, 01:38 PM

Originally posted by XnavxeMiyyep
Your points are valid, but keep in mind that the first G3 desktops and laptops were released on the same day.

True, but I think Apple Development Unit did not hqve time to do the desktop and the maptop;
and the other hand Steve promised us the year of the labtop; and we are still waiting for some real laptop intro
But I doubt, Apple Expo Paris is mostly from the previous edition a software introduction, than hardware...
and in addition no web broadcasting, so probably no big new hardware news or intro

macphoria

Sep 14, 2003, 01:40 PM

12" probably will not get L3 Cache or DVI out. But if it gets 7457, it will have 512K L2 Cache and better performance.

macphoria

Sep 14, 2003, 01:45 PM

G5 PowerBook probably won't happen till next year. But wouldn't it be nice if it happened on Tuesday? They can use similar slogan they used for Power Mac, "The world's fastest personal laptop."

yossele

Sep 14, 2003, 01:46 PM

Maybe:
15" G5 @ 1.2GHZ
15" G5 @ 1.4GHZ
17" G4 @ 1.25/1.33GHZ

greenstork

Sep 14, 2003, 01:50 PM

arn, can you at least say if it is a rumor site or one of your sources that posted this info. You always say to filter the rumors for ourselves but without some source info, this is impossible.

If you are making the assertion based on a source of your own, it's usually true. However, if it's some guy at a rumor site that you know, I might be less likely to believe these prices. Any info would be great and obvioulsy, I don't need to know the source's name.

Thanks,
Dave

TWinbrook46636

Sep 14, 2003, 01:51 PM

The 7457 is available at 1.0 GHz and 1.3 GHz speeds while the 7455 is available at 1.0 GHz and 1.25 GHz speeds. It should be obvious how badly Motorola screwed up when these are announced.

My prediction:

12" G4 7457 @ 1.0 GHz |---- October

15" G4 7457 @ 1.0 GHz |---- September
15" G4 7457 @ 1.3 GHz |---- September

17" G4 7457 @ 1.3 GHz |---- September

The 12" may be delayed until next month. I would love to see a dual 1.0 GHz in the 15" and a dual 1.3 GHz in the 17" but I just don't see Apple doing it. They could if they wanted to though. I hope to see a 1.0 GHz option on the 15" model so I can save a little money... money that will go towards a PowerBook G5 one day of course.

hacurio1

Sep 14, 2003, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by Macrumors
We've received further confirmation that Apple will be updating PowerBooks on Tuesday. Details are scarce, but rumors suggest 3 models with a price range from $1999 to $2999. Specific sizes not specified.

Last week, AppleInsider (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/09/20030911084423.shtml) "positively confirmed" 15" PowerBook updates last week at Apple Expo, while in August ThinkSecret (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/08/20030818022136.shtml) had suggested that 12" PowerBooks would follow after 15" and 17" updates.

(While purely speculation, the three models could represent two 15" models and a 17" model.)

This is what I think. The 17" will have a G5, while the rest will have G4s @ 1.25 or 1.33GHz. It makes tons of sense. I don’t see the heat problem in a 17" Alu case; moreover, at low frequencies of 1.2 or 1.4, the G5 in the 17" is feasible.

hmmm

Sep 14, 2003, 01:52 PM

Is the 12" such a waste of space that they wouldn't upgrade it? I mean if it's Apple's most popular PB why would they want to slow down sales? The buying public aren't that stupid, are they? Basically, if they don't upgrade their number one model yet they upgrade everything else, then all the Apple Sales management should go back and retake their MBAs.

synthetickittie

Sep 14, 2003, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by hmmm
Is the 12" such a waste of space that they wouldn't upgrade it? I mean if it's Apple's most popular PB why would they want to slow down sales? The buying public aren't that stupid, are they? Basically, if they don't upgrade their number one model yet they upgrade everything else, then all the Apple Sales management should go back and retake their MBAs.

It just may be that they CANT update it or nothing worth an update.

Chaszmyr

Sep 14, 2003, 01:56 PM

Is it just me, or does all the secrecry lend itself to a big announcement? Say... a dual 1.25ghz 17''?

arn

Sep 14, 2003, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by greenstork
arn, can you at least say if it is a rumor site or one of your sources that posted this info. You always say to filter the rumors for ourselves but without some source info, this is impossible.

If we don't mention a site as a source, it's our own sources.

arn

XnavxeMiyyep

Sep 14, 2003, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by Chaszmyr
Is it just me, or does all the secrecry lend itself to a big announcement? Say... a dual 1.25ghz 17''? That would be nice, and it would be kind of funny to have a G4 latptop that's faster in a lot of things than 2/3 of the G5 desktops.:D

macmunch

Sep 14, 2003, 01:58 PM

How about a G4 DUAL 17" :D

when no G5

hmmm

Sep 14, 2003, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by synthetickittie
It just may be that they CANT update it or nothing worth an update.

But again, if the 900 ibook has roughly the same performance (as with the 15") then they have to. The 867 PB range is not worth the monay anymore

QCassidy352

Sep 14, 2003, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by arn
If we don't mention a site as a source, it's our own sources.

arn

:D
when it's arn's own sources... you can take it to the bank. I am surprised that they'd leave the 12" behind though, since it seems so popular.

edit:

But again, if the 900 ibook has roughly the same performance (as with the 15") then they have to. The 867 PB range is not worth the monay anymore

although I'm a big fan of the ibook 900, it's performance is much more comparable to the 12" powerbook than the 867 15" PB. The reasons for this are the L3 cache of the bigger 'book, the better video card (radeon 9000) and a 1 Gig RAM ceiling (the 12" PB can have a gig, but only with a 1 Gig RAM chip that costs almost as much as a whole ibook).

filmmaker2002

Sep 14, 2003, 02:00 PM

My guess?

3 models = 12, 15, and 17

12" at 1Ghz
Thinner enclosure
1MB L3
FW 800
Backlit keyboard
Superdrive
$1999

15" at 1.25Ghz+
AL enclosure
FW800
DVI out
Backlit keyboard
Superdrive only, no Combo
$2599

17"
Same as now but with faster processor
$2999

XnavxeMiyyep

Sep 14, 2003, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by QCassidy352
:D
when it's arn's own sources... you can take it to the bank. I am surprised that they'd leave the 12" behind though, since it seems so popular. As mentioned before, it may be too difficult to upgrade it, due to heating and space issues.

hmmm

Sep 14, 2003, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by filmmaker2002
My guess?

3 models = 12, 15, and 17

12" at 1Ghz
Thinner enclosure
1MB L3
FW 800
Backlit keyboard
Superdrive
$1999

15" at 1.25Ghz+
AL enclosure
FW800
DVI out
Backlit keyboard
Superdrive only, no Combo
$2599

17"
Same as now but with faster processor
$2999

I'm hedging my bets with you

mxpiazza

Sep 14, 2003, 02:02 PM

Originally posted by daveschroeder
Wrong. This is an incorrect statement that, for some reason, keeps getting repeated. As with all incorrect statements, saying it over and over again doesn't make it true.

According to IBM's PowerPC 970 documentation (http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/A1387A29AC1C2AE087256C5200611780/$file/PPC970_MPF2002.pdf), a 1.2 GHz PowerPC 970 comes in at 19W power dissipation (typical), while a 1.8 GHz PowerPC 970 comes in at 42W.

Meanwhile, Motorola's PowerPC 74xx documentation (http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/taxonomy.jsp?nodeId=03C1TR046708718653) indicates that a 1 GHz PowerPC 7455, the latest processor about which data is available, dissipates 35.5W (typical) (and 50W max).[1]

Power dissipation (typical) per MHz:

PowerPC 7455: 0.0355W
PowerPC 970 (1.1v): 0.0158W
PowerPC 970 (1.3v): 0.0233W

It's easy to see that, clock for clock, the PowerPC 970 consumes much less power - and therefore dissipates less heat - than the PowerPC 74xx. The current 1.8 GHz G5 numbers aren't significantly higher than a 1.0 GHz G4...it's therefore not hard to imagine the G5 making its debut in a portable machine in the future.

That said, the new machines on Tuesday will likely not be G5s, but it's not because the G5's are "waaay too hot", when in fact just the opposite it true.

[1] Yes, the prevailing rumors indicate that the PowerPC 7457 will be used in any new PowerBook, and will presumably consume less power, and therefore dissipate less heat, per clock. However, since the clock speed is likely being increased, total power dissipation is likely to remain similar.
ok buddy, before you run around throwing stuff around like you're better that someone else, i said they were too hot AT THESE PRODUCTION PROCESSES AND SPEEDS (1.6-2.0). I said nothing about lower clock speeds, and I am writing on the assumption that 1.6-2.0 are the only g5 processors that are being mass produced. so settle down.

Rocketman

Sep 14, 2003, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Macrumors
We've received further confirmation that Apple will be updating PowerBooks on Tuesday. Details are scarce, but rumors suggest 3 models with a price range from $1999 to $2999. Specific sizes not specified.

(While purely speculation, the three models could represent two 15" models and a 17" model.)

I have no special information, but I am going to guess it is:
PB15 speed bump01 1999 1.0 ghz 4xsuperdrive
PB15 speed bump 02 2499 1.25ghz 4xsuperdrive
PB17 speed bump 2999 1.25 ghz 4xsuperdrive
PB17 original 2799 (price drop) 1.0 ghz

I guarantee I will be mainly wrong.

But I bet the new computers have FW800, side ports, USB2, AirportX and lighted keyboards. Lighted keyboards is a slick feature I wish I had. Upgrade please :)

All G4 of course. The year of the laptop indeed.

Rocketman

synthetickittie

Sep 14, 2003, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by hmmm
But again, if the 900 ibook has roughly the same performance (as with the 15") then they have to. The 867 PB range is not worth the monay anymore

How do they have to? I man I totally get what you mean about it not being all that worth the money when compared anymore but if they dont have resources to a cool enough processor then how can they update it? Any g4 processor over what they have it in now it probably gonna be too hot for the little 12 inch

crees!

Sep 14, 2003, 02:04 PM

Hey Arn,

Any word on the availability? Whether it would be immediate, 1-2 weeks, or longer?

Vlade

Sep 14, 2003, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by yossele
Maybe:
15" G5 @ 1.2GHZ
15" G5 @ 1.4GHZ
17" G4 @ 1.25/1.33GHZ

They would put the G5 in the high end 17" ones WAY before the cheaper 15" ones, at least thats what I would do.

QCassidy352

Sep 14, 2003, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by XnavxeMiyyep
As mentioned before, it may be too difficult to upgrade it, due to heating and space issues.

As far as the processor goes I see your point, but surely they could at least add usb2, a better video card, and things like that? Especially the video card, and more base RAM?

hmmm

Sep 14, 2003, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by synthetickittie
How do they have to? I man I totally get what you mean about it not being all that worth the money when compared anymore but if they dont have resources to a cool enough processor then how can they update it? Any g4 processor over what they have it in now it probably gonna be too hot for the little 12 inch

Stupid idea, but who's asking me. Anyway how about a fan!! :)

XnavxeMiyyep

Sep 14, 2003, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by QCassidy352
As far as the processor goes I see your point, but surely they could at least add usb2, a better video card, and things like that? Especially the video card, and more base RAM? Those are good points. All of Apple's models should come with at least 512 MB of RAM, and all of the other things you mentioned. The laptops should be able to support 1 GB RAM chips, too.

hmmm

Sep 14, 2003, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by XnavxeMiyyep
Those are good points. All of Apple's models should come with at least 512 MB of RAM, and all of the other things you mentioned. The laptops should be able to support 1 GB RAM chips, too.

And at least USB 2 - especially when Apple see themselves as being so pioneering - yet they're only just starting to get USB2 sorteded - yet again - APPLE, SORT IT OUT!

macmanmk

Sep 14, 2003, 02:13 PM

This rumor just confirms the news I received from a source in Cupertino. I think the price points might be a bit high though.

crees!

Sep 14, 2003, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by macmanmk
This rumor just confirms the news I received from a source in Cupertino. I think the price points might be a bit high though.

Were you told different prices? What about availability... will they be available immeditately like the iMac?

greenstork

Sep 14, 2003, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by macmanmk
This rumor just confirms the news I received from a source in Cupertino. I think the price points might be a bit high though.

The ONLY thing this rumor said was powerbooks released 9/16 and gave a price range. It didn't say anything about models. So what exactly does it confirm, that there are powerbooks being released (since you say prices are off). Well geez, I should hope so after all this time.

I guess I sound like I am jumping all over your comment and I don't mean to. I am just curious as to what else if anything your source said. Did this person confirm models to be updated?

If I sound hungry it's because I am waiting on a 12" PB for my wife and she is ready for school and perfectly willing to buy an older model. Me, I want the new goodies and think we should wait. It's a bit of a pickle and I am hoping for 12" PB's come Tuesday.

avus

Sep 14, 2003, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by XnavxeMiyyep
Those are good points. All of Apple's models should come with at least 512 MB of RAM, and all of the other things you mentioned. The laptops should be able to support 1 GB RAM chips, too.

The current 12" Powerbook CAN support one 1GB PC2100 RAM chip for notebooks, and SwissBit makes one, but it is still very expensive - it is retailed in Japan, but it costs about $600 each there. I don't think any retailer in US carrys it.

SwissBit also make 1GB PC2700 RAM chips for notebooks, but I am not sure that you can put two in the 17" Powerbook to make it to 2GB.

XnavxeMiyyep

Sep 14, 2003, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by avus
The current 12" Powerbook CAN support one 1GB PC2100 RAM chip for notebooks, and SwissBit makes one, but it is still very expensive - it is retailed in Japan, but it costs about $600 each there. I don't think any retailer in US carrys it.

SwissBit also make 1GB PC2700 RAM chips for notebooks, but I am not sure that you can put two in the 17" Powerbook to make it to 2GB. Okay, I stand corrected on that statement.

Chaszmyr

Sep 14, 2003, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by crees!
What about availability... will they be available immeditately like the iMac?

I don't claim to have any insider information, but in my opinion the general rule is as follows:

Small upgrade (just a speed bump or something... like the new imacs) = immediate availability

Big upgrade (New processor class, something like that) = delayed availability

Freg3000

Sep 14, 2003, 02:32 PM

I think macmanmk was saying the he believes the prices are to high in his opinion, not that his numbers (wherever he got them from) are different or lower than Arn's sources.

KLFloyd

Sep 14, 2003, 02:35 PM

I hope they do what they can to bring the 12" up to par with it's bigger brothers. It's one of the best sellers because people who buy laptops want portability and the 17" is cool but it's just too big to carry around with you everywhere you go. I've got a 15" model now and find that it's even sometimes a little too large for my taste.

I'd like to see the G5's in the PowerBook as soon as it's practical. Maybe that's tomorrow? I hope so. Though something to consider, when Steve launches the PowerBook G5 do you think he'd so it in Paris or would he want to be on his own home turf?

I'm not in the market to upgrade for another 8 months to a year so I'll want the most bang for my buck by then.

One things for sure, I'll be getting up extra early Tuesday to check out the news.

DakotaGuy

Sep 14, 2003, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by XnavxeMiyyep
Your points are valid, but keep in mind that the first G3 desktops and laptops were released on the same day.

You have to remember also though the step from a 60x series of processor to the G3 (7xx) was not the redesign that would be required going from G4 to G5. I am not an expert but I think A LOT needs to be changed going from G4 to G5. Anyone with more knowledge could comment on this. I thought the main difference between the older PowerPC's and the G3 was the backside L2 cache.

Lord Bodak

Sep 14, 2003, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by XnavxeMiyyep
The laptops should be able to support 1 GB RAM chips, too.

They already do (at least the 12" and 17" do).

ryan

Sep 14, 2003, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by Vlade
They would put the G5 in the high end 17" ones WAY before the cheaper 15" ones, at least thats what I would do. Good thing that you're not in charge then. If the 17" were to have a G5 and the 15" were to keep the G4, then all the 15" sales would dry up. Why? Because, everyone would know that putting a G5 in a PowerBook would be possible and most people would simply wait until it became available across the entire line (or at the very least the 15").

Quite frankly I think for Apple to continue to sell machines without a G5 is going to become more and more difficult. Regardless of the real benefits the G5 may or may not have over the G4, the perception is that the G5 will solve all your speed woes. When it comes to marketing and sales, perception IS reality.

XnavxeMiyyep

Sep 14, 2003, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by ryan
Good thing that you're not in charge then. If the 17" were to have a G5 and the 15" were to keep the G4, then all the 15" sales would dry up. Why? Because, everyone would know that putting a G5 in a PowerBook would be possible and most people would simply wait until it became available across the entire line (or at the very least the 15").

Quite frankly I think for Apple to continue to sell machines without a G5 is going to become more and more difficult. Regardless of the real benefits the G5 may or may not have over the G4, the perception is that the G5 will solve all your speed woes. When it comes to marketing and sales, perception IS reality. I would think that the 17" and 15" would get the G5 at the same time, but maybe not the 12".

crees!

Sep 14, 2003, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by XnavxeMiyyep
I would think that the 17" and 15" would get the G5 at the same time, but maybe not the 12".

I could sort of see that.. but why would 2 of your 3 PRO laptops have a more advanced processor?

XnavxeMiyyep

Sep 14, 2003, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by crees!
I could sort of see that.. but why would 2 of your 3 PRO laptops have a more advanced processor? Because the 12" is too small to fit a G5 at the size they are now.

Falleron

Sep 14, 2003, 02:53 PM

I think:

12" = 1Ghz G4 (new motorola g4)
15" = 1Ghz or 1.25Ghz G4 (new motorola chip)
17" = 1.2Ghz G5

With the slogan the worlds fastest portable. Or, the worlds first 64bit laptop. The majority will have firewire 800 + usb 2 as well.

Mathieu

Sep 14, 2003, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by filmmaker2002

12" at 1Ghz
Thinner enclosure
1MB L3
FW 800
Backlit keyboard
Superdrive
$1999

15" at 1.25Ghz+
AL enclosure
FW800
DVI out
Backlit keyboard
Superdrive only, no Combo
$2599

17"
Same as now but with faster processor
$2999

I have to agree with this one. Price range is really too cheap for a G5. This is gonna be a small update.

Mathieu

Sep 14, 2003, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by Falleron
I think:

12" = 1Ghz G4 (new motorola g4)
15" = 1Ghz or 1.25Ghz G4 (new motorola chip)
17" = 1.2Ghz G5

With the slogan the worlds fastest portable. Or, the worlds first 64bit laptop. The majority will have firewire 800 + usb 2 as well.

With a 15" G4 at $2500 and a 17" G5 at $2999, who would buy the 15"?

SeaFox

Sep 14, 2003, 02:59 PM

Man, that $1999 better not be the 12". Two grand for a laptop with only a 12" screen is rediculous.

I say it will be two 15's and the 17.

hmmm

Sep 14, 2003, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by XnavxeMiyyep
Because the 12" is too small to fit a G5 at the size they are now.

What's the point of having a top range if the complete range is not top - by only upgrading the 17 and 15" to G5 and leaving the 12" as a G4, then in reality it puts the 12" back in the league of ibooks - it would make zero sense and lose Apple credibility in the portable market - something they don't need

Falleron

Sep 14, 2003, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by Mathieu
With a 15" G4 at $2500 and a 17" G5 at $2999, who would buy the 15"?
Well, it could well be that the 17" will be a 1.25Ghz G4. But, there may be a limited edition G5 powerbook (priced much higher). Yes I know that there would need to be hefty price + major internal update. However, its not wasted money since all powerbooks will go to the G5 at some point.

filmmaker2002

Sep 14, 2003, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by Mathieu
I have to agree with this one. Price range is really too cheap for a G5. This is gonna be a small update.

Then again...G5 processors are less expensive than G4s...you never know.

XnavxeMiyyep

Sep 14, 2003, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by hmmm
What's the point of having a top range if the complete range is not top - by only upgrading the 17 and 15" to G5 and leaving the 12" as a G4, then in reality it puts the 12" back in the league of ibooks - it would make zero sense and lose Apple credibility in the portable market - something they don't need Maybe, but would it be better for them to wait for the 12" Powerbook to be able to get a G5, too, or to release a G5 Powerbook as fast as possible?

Falleron

Sep 14, 2003, 03:05 PM

It may just be me, but I really dont see why the powerbook wont go G5's throughout! Whats stopping apple. I reckon IBM could produce a range of low power G5's.

hmmm

Sep 14, 2003, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by Falleron
Well, it could well be that the 17" will be a 1.25Ghz G4. But, there may be a limited edition G5 powerbook (priced much higher). Yes I know that there would need to be hefty price + major internal update. However, its not wasted money since all powerbooks will go to the G5 at some point.

I agree, either the whole range will go G5 or there'll be a new G5 range on top of the current (upgraded) G4 range - that'd be cool

AidenShaw

Sep 14, 2003, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by Falleron
Or, the worlds first 64bit laptop.

Tadpole has been selling 64-bit Alpha and SPARC notebooks for many years....

http://www.tadpolecomputer.com/html/

http://www.tadpolecomputer.com/layout/images/home/home_main1.jpg

nalfein

Sep 14, 2003, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by hmmm
What's the point of having a top range if the complete range is not top - by only upgrading the 17 and 15" to G5 and leaving the 12" as a G4, then in reality it puts the 12" back in the league of ibooks - it would make zero sense and lose Apple credibility in the portable market - something they don't need

12" are already near ibooks league with lack of L3 cache. People dont stop buying it because it's slower than it's big brother. Peoples are buying 12" because they want more portability. If there is not enough space in 12" to put G5 so wy would the 15" and the 17" should wait for a smaler version when they are already big enough.

Falleron

Sep 14, 2003, 03:08 PM

Chaszmyr

Sep 14, 2003, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by hmmm
I agree, either the whole range will go G5 or there'll be a new G5 range on top of the current (upgraded) G4 range - that'd be cool

Say hello to the UltraBook :-P

Not going to happen!

nalfein

Sep 14, 2003, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Tadpole has been selling 64-bit Alpha and SPARC notebooks for many years....

http://www.tadpolecomputer.com/html/

]

maybe you can call those mobile workstation instead notebook!! :D

hmmm

Sep 14, 2003, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Tadpole has been selling 64-bit Alpha and SPARC notebooks for many years....

http://www.tadpolecomputer.com/html/

http://www.tadpolecomputer.com/layout/images/home/home_main1.jpg

Sun® Workstation performance in a reliable, affordable notebook.
SPARCLE® notebooks from Tadpole® are the most affordable, full featured UNIX notebooks money can buy. Ideal for telecommuting, training, field support or remote systems administration, they deliver portable workstation-class performance. SPARCLE® notebooks can be used to demonstrate, run and develop Solaris applications or as a portable SPARC®-powered server. Offering unprecedented price/performance, SPARCLE® notebooks come well-equipped with an impressive set of standard features:

440MHz, 500MHz or 650MHz UltraSPARC® processors
14.1" XGA or 15" SXGA+ TFT LCD
Integrated CD-ROM or CD-RW/DVD
Up to 80GB internal disk storage
100% SolarisTM binary compatible
802.11b wireless networking
Up to 2GB DRAM
The SPARCLE® notebooks come pre-installed with the Solaris 9 Operating Environment and StarOfficeTM 6.0.

looks great, but at $3000 it hurts

SiliconAddict

Sep 14, 2003, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by DrGonzo
Could it be? The last powerbook rumor! I can only hope.

Is there truly such a thing as the last PowerBook rumor? :) That would be a sad day.

Bring on further rampant G5 PowerBook speculation

neutrino23

Sep 14, 2003, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by Vlade
I agree, who would pay 3000 bucks for a G4 right now, not me anyways!

These comments are interesting. Even in today's market lots of people would buy a really nice G4 computer at that price. I will get the 15" Al soon after it comes out. The processor is adequate but I really like (and will make use of ) the total package - DVI out, AE, FW, USB, etc.

Just for historical reference, about six years ago Apple sold the PowerBook 3400c. It had a 240MHz 603e PPC. Fully loaded the list price was $6,500. At the time it was the fastest laptop in the world.

Fully loaded in 1997 meant no FW, no USB, no CD-R, no Superdrive, 3GB HD, only 10MB Ethernet(optional), one ADB port, one serial port, one SCSI port, no Airport slot, 12.1" 800 x 600 display, 7.2 pounds, no backlit keyboard, 2.4" thick, no OS X (shipped with System 7.6.1), maximum RAM 144MB, no graphics card, 512k graphics memory, no video out, no DVI out.

I understand that in today's market a G4 is not leading edge. However, it's awesome to look how far we've come in six years. For less than half the money you now get a hell of a lot more PowerBook.

ColoJohnBoy

Sep 14, 2003, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by mxpiazza
i'd be VERY surprised if the laptops are g5's... lets be realistic here people, these things are simply waaaay too hot to be realistic laptop processors at the current production processes and speeds. however, if they do end up coming out with a g5 powerbook... my 1.8 g5 has a 30-day guarennteed return period.

Aaaaaagh! Why do people keep saying this?!?! Search around for threads! The G5 running at 1.2 GHz consumes less energy and produces A LOT less heat than a 1 GHz G4 (7455). While unlikely that they will be put in the laptops this early, it is NOT because of heat or energy consumption!!!

pkradd

Sep 14, 2003, 03:23 PM

I'm always amazed at the silliness of some posters. Apple just got delivery from IBM - somewhat late it seems, of the new VERY HOT RUNNING "G5" chips. The Power Mac requires enormous heat sinks and a bunch of fans to keep the processors from overheating. How in the world could one expect these chips to find their way into a slim portable? Obviously they can't and won't. A future variation of the current chip without the heat problems will be available in maybe 6 months. One other thing. LCD prices, particuarly the 12" and 15" varieties are going up in price. Manufacturers are shifting to other sizes and capacity is not meeting demand at this time.

macrumors12345

Sep 14, 2003, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by daveschroeder
Wrong. ["The PPC 970 dissipates too much heat for a PB"] is an incorrect statement that, for some reason, keeps getting repeated. As with all incorrect statements, saying it over and over again doesn't make it true.

According to IBM's PowerPC 970 documentation (http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/A1387A29AC1C2AE087256C5200611780/$file/PPC970_MPF2002.pdf), a 1.2 GHz PowerPC 970 comes in at 19W power dissipation (typical), while a 1.8 GHz PowerPC 970 comes in at 42W.

Meanwhile, Motorola's PowerPC 74xx documentation (http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/taxonomy.jsp?nodeId=03C1TR046708718653) indicates that a 1 GHz PowerPC 7455, the latest processor about which data is available, dissipates 35.5W (typical) (and 50W max).[1]

The statement keeps getting repeated because it is, in fact, true.

The Moto link you provided gives the specs for the *original* 7455 processor revision - not the current revision. If you look at a more recent document (http://e-www.motorola.com/files/32bit/doc/fact_sheet/PPCSALESFACT.pdf), you will see that the current revision of the MPC 7455 (released in Oct/Dec) dissipates only 14 watts at 1 Ghz (well, 13 watts at 933 Mhz and 15 watts at 1067 Mhz - you can do the imputation). So the 1.2 Ghz 970 would use 35% more power than the 1 Ghz 7455, which is already considered to be at the upper limits of power consumption for the Powerbooks (otherwise Apple would have put 1.1 or 1.2 Ghz 7455 processors in the Powerbooks months ago).

crees!

Sep 14, 2003, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by pkradd
I'm always amazed at the silliness of some posters. Apple just got delivery from IBM - somewhat late it seems, of the new VERY HOT RUNNING "G5" chips. The Power Mac requires enormous heat sinks and a bunch of fans to keep the processors from overheating. How in the world could one expect these chips to find their way into a slim portable? Obviously they can't and won't. A future variation of the current chip without the heat problems will be available in maybe 6 months. One other thing. LCD prices, particuarly the 12" and 15" varieties are going up in price. Manufacturers are shifting to other sizes and capacity is not meeting demand at this time.

This has to be stopped. Those who post non-sense like this should have their posting privledges revoked.

nick.hill

Sep 14, 2003, 03:33 PM

Would apple be going down the tablec PC kinda route anytime soon? If at all....

mxpiazza

Sep 14, 2003, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by ColoJohnBoy
Aaaaaagh! Why do people keep saying this?!?! Search around for threads! The G5 running at 1.2 GHz consumes less energy and produces A LOT less heat than a 1 GHz G4 (7455). While unlikely that they will be put in the laptops this early, it is NOT because of heat or energy consumption!!!
like i said... at CURRENT SPEEDS (which are 1.6-2.0) nothing has been stated that any g5's at lower clock speeds are being produced right now in mass quantities suitable for a new product introduction. read a little bit more closely before you rip someone's head off.

Chaszmyr

Sep 14, 2003, 03:36 PM

I still don't understand why people keep talking about heat being an issue with the G4 and G5, when Intel has no trouble cooling 3.2ghz P4s which consume more energy with heatsinks 1/4 the size

Freg3000

Sep 14, 2003, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by crees!
This has to be stopped. Those who post non-sense like this should have their posting privledges revoked.

I agree. Well, maybe not to that extent. But maybe on every PowerBook rumor, Arn could make a little reminder saying that this simply is not true. A G5 Powerbook at 1.2 GHz would be cooler than today's 1 GHz G4.

macrumors12345

Sep 14, 2003, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by ColoJohnBoy
Aaaaaagh! Why do people keep saying this?!?!

Once again, people keep on saying it BECAUSE IT'S TRUE. Please refer to my post above to see that the people claiming that the 970 is cooler than the 7455 are not comparing the 970 to the CURRENT revision of the 7455.

mxpiazza

Sep 14, 2003, 03:39 PM

also... anyone with a g5 just take a look at the heatsink on the thing... it's like 4 inches deep. most people should be happy that new powerbooks are being released, now here we are complaining and arguing and putting others down just because everyone now wants to believe that the new books are going to be g5... when is this going to end? never. we'll find out tuesday, but some of the people on this forum with their big mouths and attitudes are going to eat their words when the books are g4. and if they're g5, i'll never post another reply on these forums again, that is how sure i am of this. no matter how much anyone wants to or can justify that g5's are *possible*, it's not going to happen.

crees!

Sep 14, 2003, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by Freg3000
I agree. Well, maybe not to that extent. But maybe on every PowerBook rumor, Arn could make a little reminder saying that this simply is not true. A G5 Powerbook at 1.2 GHz would be cooler than today's 1 GHz G4.
Okay.. this has been settled. On to the next topic of discussion. :) I really hope it is 15.4' I know sites have been back and forth on this issue.. 15.4" vs 15.2".. We'll just have to wait and see i guess.

mxpiazza

Sep 14, 2003, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by macrumors12345
Once again, people keep on saying it BECAUSE IT'S TRUE. Please refer to my post above to see that the people claiming that the 970 is cooler than the 7455 are not comparing the 970 to the CURRENT revision of the 7455.
thank you macrumors12345, it's nice to hear from someone eho not only knows what they're talking about, but also has factual information to back it up, without being condesending.

pkradd

Sep 14, 2003, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by crees!
This has to be stopped. Those who post non-sense like this should have their posting privledges revoked.

Who appointed you chief bottle washer and sheriff? Get off you high horse and chill out. There will be no G5 powerbook nevertheless. The current chip will not be used in a portable.

jouster

Sep 14, 2003, 03:47 PM

Basing hardware assumptions on price is misleading, so all those who doubt the PB G5's appearance because "$2999 seems too low" may be misleading themselves.

In these relatively tough times, computer sales are generally flat, and many people are choosing according to price rather than specs or OS. Sure, releasing the "World's first 64 bit Laptop" (and let's not include those SPARC baesd ones, which only recently fell below five or six thousand bucks) certainly has a nice ring to it, but how many are you going to sell at, say $3500?

Demand and saleability drive pricing, and Apple could easily price itsef out of the market if it's not careful.

eric67

Sep 14, 2003, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by Chaszmyr
I still don't understand why people keep talking about heat being an issue with the G4 and G5, when Intel has no trouble cooling 3.2ghz P4s which consume more energy with heatsinks 1/4 the size

it is indeed true , but the P4 is not running at 3GHz in the omputer, there is a nifty processor clock adjustment system , and at the most the processor will rarely exceed 1.5GHz.
This is why Intel has introduced the P4M, which really means portable, than of course the clock speed goes down seriously...
and still the P4M and P4 centrino have a clock adjustment system to extend battery life

jouster

Sep 14, 2003, 03:52 PM

I posted this elsewhere, but I think it may be valid:

It seems to me that the whole PowerBook G5 issue boils down to one thing, more or less:

Apple has a choice. It can

(a) Build them soon, using lower specced 970s (say @ 1.2 Ghz) which dissipate as little heat as a MOT G4 or,

(b) Wait for the process shrink and release faster 970s @ 90 nM.

The decision will be made for financial reasons rather than technical ones, I would speculate. I believe they will wait for option (b) as they are making money on MOT powered 'books at the moment. Also, they may still have contractual obligations to MOT of which we are unaware.
Finally, there may be some advantages to using the 7457 that we are again unaware of.

Whatever, I'm not holding my breath for the G5 PB. I'm not too unhappy about that, as I just changed my mind regarding a PB purchase. I had saved the money for a 17" PB but at the last moment bought an old TiBook on ebay. I tried hard to convince myself the lapzilla was worth $3300, but in the end just couldn't justify it. An $800 TiBook will tide me over nicely to the next Gen PowerBook release.

DakotaGuy

Sep 14, 2003, 03:55 PM

After reviewing all the current G5 Benchmarks I wonder how much faster a 1.25 G5 would really be compared to a 1.25 G4.

Viv

Sep 14, 2003, 03:55 PM

It just seems a small point but IBM have had the same amount of time to get a G5 ready for a Laptop roll out as they did for the desktop roll out!

It just needed Apple to say at the time oh by the way we will want a G5 for the laptops as well can you do that?

So by IBM intranet rumor they have had 15 to 18 months to get it sorted and Apple have had the same amount of time to do a new mother board to carry it.

So on Tuesday I am hoping for a G5 laptop and if I don't get it I will wait for it.(':mad:')

You have been warned Apple, you want the money? its in the bank waiting for you.(':p')

JSRockit

Sep 14, 2003, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by arn
sorry...

rumor edited.

3 models. Screen sizes were not specified. So could simply represent pricing for 15" models only. or two 15" and a 17".

arn

A $1999 15" pBook would be awesome.

dongmin

Sep 14, 2003, 03:58 PM

The 17" PB design is barely 8 months old; no way is Apple gonna do an overhaul to put in a G5. Sorry.

Plus, as macrumors12345 has pointed out, the 970 DOES dissipate more heat per megahertz than the current 7455. The ONLY chip that let's Apple go beyond 1 ghz in the PBs right now is the 7457.

We won't see a G5 PB until sometime next spring or summer when the dieshrunk 970 is shipping in volume.

So stop with all this G5 powerbook nonesense. Pure fantasy, I tell ya.

JSRockit

Sep 14, 2003, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by dongmin
The 17" PB design is barely 8 months old; no way is Apple gonna do an overhaul to put in a G5. Sorry.

Plus, as macrumors12345 has pointed out, the 970 DOES dissipate more heat per megahertz than the current 7455. The ONLY chip that let's Apple go beyond 1 ghz in the PBs right now is the 7457.

We won't see a G5 PB until sometime next spring or summer when the dieshrunk 970 is shipping in volume.

So stop with all this G5 powerbook nonesense. Pure fantasy, I tell ya.

I didn't think the 17" pBook would have to be redesigned to fit a G5.

Also, I thought the G5, running at slower speeds, ran just as cool as the current G4 or at least cool enough to shove into a 15-17" pBook?

jouster

Sep 14, 2003, 04:02 PM

It does, but there is some doubt as to whether IBM can currently produce enought to use in PMs as well as PBs.

JSRockit

Sep 14, 2003, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by jouster
It does, but there is some doubt as to whether IBM can currently produce enought to use in PMs as well as PBs.

I guess they would have had to have been producing 1.3Ghz or whatever 970s the whole time they were making the 1.6Ghz to 2.0Ghz 970s... maybe that is a little hard...but it could be the reason IBM hasn't been able to keep up with the demand for the pMac chips.

jouster

Sep 14, 2003, 04:07 PM

Originally posted by JSRockit
I guess they would have had to have been producing 1.3Ghz or whatever 970s the whole time they were making the 1.6Ghz to 2.0Ghz 970s... maybe that is a little hard...but it could be the reason IBM hasn't been able to keep up with the demand for the pMac chips.

True, and impossible to prove or disprove at this point.

The only slim evidence in this theory's favor, I would say, is that 1.3 or close to it was IBM's original projection for the first 970s, was it not?

I still strongly believe there will be no G5 PBs on Tuesday.

JSRockit

Sep 14, 2003, 04:07 PM

Originally posted by SeaFox
Man, that $1999 better not be the 12". Two grand for a laptop with only a 12" screen is rediculous.

I say it will be two 15's and the 17.

Could be that the 12" will not be updated yet...then I would agree with you. $2000 for a 12" laptop is not uncommon in the PC world...but Apple would have to include a L3 Cache or a G5 and DVI to ask for that kind of money.

Maybe those prices are just for the 15" pBook.

JSRockit

Sep 14, 2003, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by jouster

The only slim evidence in this theory's favor, I would say, is that 1.3 or close to it was IBM's original projection for the first 970s, was it not?

yes...that is what makes this all interesting. we'll soon find out.

wood_e

Sep 14, 2003, 04:08 PM

Ok people, lets get it straight.

Apple and Motorola are basically finished. Motorola can't product processors well at all. They are the reason apple has been behind in clock speed for over half a decade. Now this update probably won't be to G5s, but it IS the end of the line for G4 powerbooks.

Why do I say this? G4s run hot in powerbooks. Granted the 12" problems in heat ARE NOT from the CPU, but from the hard drive and power board. The G5 was in development for a while, and I bet apple has a G5 laptop. It wouldn't be hard to impliment a G5 laptop at this point.

Look at it this way. the powerbooks have DDR (except for the 15") right now, but can the G4 take advantage of DDR ram? NO it can't, and since theres DDR channels already on the boards how hard would it be to put a DDR aware CPU on, new controlers andan ATA bus? Not very in my oppinion. The G5 at 1GHZ and with a DDR 2700 bus would be PREFECT for a low heat, damn quick laptop.

All of you saying the 17" will get a G5 and the rest G4s dream on. :rolleyes: Why would Apple do that? It makes no sense at all! Dual G4s maybe, but a G5 in one model and not the others? No way would Apple do that. The 12" is their best seller for a reason.

All that said... Tuesday probably won't bring G5 powerbooks, but I would not be suprised if it did. We have waited a long time, and there has to be something huge in the pipeline. I guess we have to wait it out... :)

s10

Sep 14, 2003, 04:09 PM

I have no idea of what the technical difficulties may be for not releasing a G5 powerbook, but I do know that from a marketing point of view it wouldn't be very clever to come with a little speed bumb G4's for the PB range AFTER the introduction of the G5 Towers, especially if clients know that G5 PB will come out next year.

But then again, Apple doesn't always take the most clever marketing steps....

I cannot remember... did they update the G3 Powerbooks after the introduction of the G4 Desktops?

utilizer

Sep 14, 2003, 04:10 PM

HP, for the most part, doesn't use P4 Mobiles in their laptops; they're the real deal desktop chips but incredibly loud with the fans and hard drive spinning.
So, I surmize that Apple could (and will) place two G4 1.25 chips in the 17 in. model this Tuesday.
Just clarify the naysayers that claim most of the high-end PC laptop makers use P4 Mobiles. Not true -- For their highest end, they offer true desktops in bulky, loud, and unattractive enclosures!:p

jouster

Sep 14, 2003, 04:10 PM

Well, maybe. But as I said earlier, technological reasons are not the only ones driving any company's strategy.

jcgerm

Sep 14, 2003, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by pkradd
Who appointed you chief bottle washer and sheriff? Get off you high horse and chill out. There will be no G5 powerbook nevertheless. The current chip will not be used in a portable.

What are you basing all of this on? It seems to me that looking at the actual spec for the chip rather than looking inside the case of a PowerMac would make more sense. People are also talking about a 1.2 GHz 970, rather than a 1.6 GHz 970 (the lowest available to LOOK at). That's a 400 MHz difference.

JSRockit

Sep 14, 2003, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by wood_e

All of you saying the 17" will get a G5 and the rest G4s dream on. :rolleyes: Why would Apple do that? It makes no sense at all! Dual G4s maybe, but a G5 in one model and not the others? No way would Apple do that. The 12" is their best seller for a reason.

Yes, the 17" pBook is most likely the least popular. The 15" will most likely surpass the 12" in sales really quick. I know alot of people who want the 15" pBook (friends, people in forums etc)...and in the PC world, 15" is the most popular size. The 12" and 17" pBooks would not have done as well if the 15" AlBook was introduced at the same time.

crees!

Sep 14, 2003, 04:12 PM

utilizer

Sep 14, 2003, 04:13 PM

Originally posted by s10

But then again, Apple doesn't always take the most clever marketing steps....

I cannot remember... did they update the G3 Powerbooks after the introduction of the G4 Desktops?

Nope...The Pismos were the last in the series of G3 PowerBooks, released during the summer. Then in September of 2000, G4s were announced. MWSF 2001 brought the Titanium PowerBook G4 at 400 Mhz and 500 Mhz.
I have a Pismo 400 mhz and bought one shortly before the G4s were marketed.

Just to humor some people, here are some more highlights in Apple expo history:
MWNY 2001 - The G4 Cube is introduced!
MWSF 2002 - New G4 towers, Cube is discontinued; TiPB upgrades.
MWNY 2002 - BY FAR -- The worst of the worst expos EVER: iDVD released.
MWSF 2003: PowerBooks 12 and 17 models released! An entire slew of stuff for everyone to enjoy.
WWDC 2003: G5s! 'Nuff said.

wood_e

Sep 14, 2003, 04:14 PM

s10 I believe they did update the G3 laptops after the introduction. This was cuz G3s were easy to come by, and like i said, the G4 was literally HOT. I remember the MASSIVE size of the G4 heatsink compared to the G3s.....

Apple has an option here. Release something customers won't buy because they brought out a clearly faster desktop, or release something a bit slower than their desktops, but with the technology used in thier new desktops.

I think Apple will be smart and use the latter of those.

JSRockit

Sep 14, 2003, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by wood_e

Apple has an option here. Release something customers won't buy because they brought out a clearly faster desktop, or release something a bit slower than their desktops, but with the technology used in thier new desktops.

I think Apple will be smart and use the latter of those.

That is exactly how I see it. If they brought their desktop machines up to par...then the pro laptop needs to be brought up to par as well. The iMac is a consumer model, so we cannot use that for any indication of what will happen to the pro level laptops.

Photorun

Sep 14, 2003, 04:23 PM

Why is it I'm tempted to go through this thread and PM every idiot saying "oooh G5" with a big fat "I told you so" after the G4 Powerbooks come out? You guys are ridiculous pipe dreamers! Get a grip!

These are in line with Apple's price gouging with outdated speed G4 line-up (yes, G4!) released. Yes that's disappointing but hey, look around, reality is oft disappointing. If the 15 inch was the $2000 at 1.3 GHz I'd contemplate it but I doubt it, Apple likes it's 50% or greater profit margins and I'd bet the $1999 is the 12, the 15 will come in at an inflated $2499 or knowing Apple more (like $2699 which I'd estimate the cost of building one would be more like $1400, nice profit margin) and the top one probably the 17 whatever processor they'll give it.

dhdave

Sep 14, 2003, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by Mathieu
I have to agree with this one. Price range is really too cheap for a G5. This is gonna be a small update.

Ok, but then why is Steve giving the keynote. Upping the 15" to the new ddr architecture and giving it a 1.25 ghz G4 isn't worth more than 5 minutes. These upgrades aren't even worthy of the keynote. I don't mean to fan the flames, but circumstances suggest to me a larger event than that. I'm totally ready to be wrong, but I don't think I am.

dh

JSRockit

Sep 14, 2003, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by Photorun
Why is it I'm tempted to go through this thread and PM every idiot saying "oooh G5" with a big fat "I told you so" after the G4 Powerbooks come out? You guys are ridiculous pipe dreamers! Get a grip!

These are in line with Apple's price gouging with outdated speed G4 line-up (yes, G4!) released. Yes that's disappointing but hey, look around, reality is oft disappointing. If the 15 inch was the $2000 at 1.3 GHz I'd contemplate it but I doubt it, Apple likes it's 50% or greater profit margins and I'd bet the $1999 is the 12, the 15 will come in at an inflated $2499 or knowing Apple more (like $2699 which I'd estimate the cost of building one would be more like $1400, nice profit margin) and the top one probably the 17 whatever processor they'll give it.

If the $1999 is for the 12", then it better have a G5 (which will not happen in the 12"). How else could they ask us to pay more...unless DVI and an L3 cache is added. Anyway, if the 15" pBook is $1999, I'm afraid that you might be right. The only thing that could be in our favor, the pipe-dreamers, is that the 970 is a cheaper processor than the G4 right?

porovaara

Sep 14, 2003, 04:31 PM

The 12" is designed for people that want the Powerbook power but want portability. What surprises me is people actually complaining about the screen size for $1999... as laptops get smaller they get MORE expensive. Bigger isn't really always better, especially if you have to carry a laptop around with you all the time.

Personally I hope that if the 12" is updated the following changes are made:

* Widescreen. 768 down is fine but bump it up to 1152 horizontal at least.
* Made more light, my current laptop is a 3.1lb Sharp Model with a 12" screen. Every little pound makes a huge difference.
* L3 Cache.
* More effective cooling. Those who say it doesn't get hot are delusional.

Hugin777

Sep 14, 2003, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by wood_e
It wouldn't be hard to impliment a G5 laptop at this point.

I read somewhere that the problem with a G5 notebook was that the system controller got too hot. They said it had to wait for 90nm before it could be used.

Whether IBM could do that now, I do not know...

The G5 at 1GHZ and with a DDR 2700 bus would be PREFECT for a low heat, damn quick laptop.

Do you think a 1GHz G5 would be faster than a 1GHz G4 ?

wood_e

Sep 14, 2003, 04:33 PM

Originally posted by Photorun
Why is it I'm tempted to go through this thread and PM every idiot saying "oooh G5" with a big fat "I told you so" after the G4 Powerbooks come out? You guys are ridiculous pipe dreamers! Get a grip!

These are in line with Apple's price gouging with outdated speed G4 line-up (yes, G4!) released. Yes that's disappointing but hey, look around, reality is oft disappointing. If the 15 inch was the $2000 at 1.3 GHz I'd contemplate it but I doubt it, Apple likes it's 50% or greater profit margins and I'd bet the $1999 is the 12, the 15 will come in at an inflated $2499 or knowing Apple more (like $2699 which I'd estimate the cost of building one would be more like $1400, nice profit margin) and the top one probably the 17 whatever processor they'll give it.

And what evidence supports this? You think a G4 is that much less expensive than a G5? G5s at lower mhz (or ghz) are easy to come by. MOTO can barley make enough 7457s.... By law of supply and demand G5s are going to be less expensive, so therefore they create a larget profitmargin. As for the R&D of a G5 laptop, I think the cost would be minimal to impliment a G5.

If i get an I told you do Tuesday so be it. I'm not neccessarily saying OMG G5 tuesday. I'm saying that its not impossible, but very likely to implement the G5 in the current line up.

I still think Apple will go G4 one more round though.

JSRockit

Sep 14, 2003, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by Hugin777

Do you think a 1GHz G5 would be faster than a 1GHz G4 ?

Not in 10.2.6 or 10.2.7...but maybe with Panther. Would you rather have a 1Ghz G4 that can't utilize DDR ram fully and has a FSB of 133mhz or would you rather have a G5 that can utilize DDR Ram, is 64-bit, and has a 400mhz FSB (guessing, not sure if it would be anywhere near the desktop FSB speeds)?

wood_e

Sep 14, 2003, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by Hugin777
I read somewhere that the problem with a G5 notebook was that the system controller got too hot. They said it had to wait for 9nm before it could be used.

Whether IBM could do that now, I do not know...

Do you think a 1GHz G5 would be faster than a 1GHz G4 ?

Those challenges are easily met with a heat pipe style cooling over the controler. I do believe a G5 at 1ghz would be faster than a G4.

Those who think the powerbook 12" RAM celing is 640MB you are indeed wrong. 1152 is the celing. You can get a 1GB DDR SODIMM and it will work in the powerbook. Those are just damn expensive, but it is possible to have over a gig of RAM in the 12".

Don't believe me? Search google...

Nutzoids

Sep 14, 2003, 04:40 PM

Not to be negitive but did anyone see the cleance page for the Apple Store? There are 2 different 12" and 15" PowerBooks and only 1 17". This makes me belive that we will be seeing updates for those most likely. Also is $400 too much of an increase for the 12" if they upgread the hell out of it? If Apple doesn't get all there computers over 1GHz they would be stabbing themsleves in the foot. I have been under a consant battle since the G5 came out. PC people refuse to think Apple is better...You know how many times I have to hear "Mac is Crap" This is there (PC people) slogan. I know you all have heard the same type of things. Imagin what the Higher-ups at Apple must hear! I don't think we will see too much from the 17" but the 12" and 15"....Ohh yeah it's on baby...:cool:

macphoria

Sep 14, 2003, 04:42 PM

With a 15" G4 at $2500 and a 17" G5 at $2999, who would buy the 15"?
People who can't afford that extra $500? People who prefer smaller form factor? I personally would get 15".

Do you think a 1GHz G5 would be faster than a 1GHz G4 ?
I think 1GHz G5 will be faster than 1GHz G4, but not by much.

cyril

Sep 14, 2003, 04:42 PM

Hi..I know you are looking for somebody with a coverage of the keynote... i will be there... I'm currently trying to set up something to have a live coverage.

In the meantime, I have posted pictures of what is currently happening in Paris. You can check them on http://www.apple-zone.com

3.1416

Sep 14, 2003, 04:42 PM

Originally posted by dhdave
Ok, but then why is Steve giving the keynote. Upping the 15" to the new ddr architecture and giving it a 1.25 ghz G4 isn't worth more than 5 minutes.

There are plenty of things Steve might show off other than new PBs. Perhaps iTunes music store for Europe and/or Windows, G5 Xserves, significant iApp or .mac updates, or something completely unexpected.

cb911

Sep 14, 2003, 04:47 PM

well, well... details are very scarce indeed... but only just over a day now until we can all find out for sure.;) :D

i'm betting that it'll be either a 7457 (which i understand will be a great imporvement over the current 1GHz processor used in PowerBooks) or it could also be the G5. Apple has been especially tight lipped about the new PowerBooks this time round... so i think thats a definite sign that something good will happen with them. ThinkSecret had detailed specs of the new iMacs way before they came out, but virtually no one had any info on the PowerBooks. and to top that off, all of the G5 PowerBook speculation has been coming from individuals, like people here on MR, etc.

even though there's been heaps of speculation, i still don't really have any idea what's going to be happening.:confused:

JSRockit

Sep 14, 2003, 04:48 PM

Originally posted by cb911
Apple has been especially tight lipped about the new PowerBooks this time round... so i think thats a definite sign that something good will happen with them. ThinkSecret had detailed specs of the new iMacs way before they came out, but virtually no one had any info on the PowerBooks. and to top that off, all of the G5 PowerBook speculation has been coming from individuals, like people here on MR, etc.

Maybe the pBooks upgrades just aren't going to happen!

wood_e

Sep 14, 2003, 04:50 PM

Originally posted by cb911
well, well... details are very scarce indeed... but only just over a day now until we can all find out for sure.;) :D

i'm betting that it'll be either a 7457 (which i understand will be a great imporvement over the current 1GHz processor used in PowerBooks) or it could also be the G5. Apple has been especially tight lipped about the new PowerBooks this time round... so i think thats a definite sign that something good will happen with them. ThinkSecret had detailed specs of the new iMacs way before they came out, but virtually no one had any info on the PowerBooks. and to top that off, all of the G5 PowerBook speculation has been coming from individuals, like people here on MR, etc.

even though there's been heaps of speculation, i still don't really have any idea what's going to be happening.:confused:

I don't think anyone gives a rats ass about new iMacs..... ohh a speed bump for a computer that people mostly use for internet, light gaming and other small tasks. Apple is tight lipped about everything. They hate rumors, and rumor sites. The long wait and little information lead me to believe something big will happen. We all have to wait.

Photorun

Sep 14, 2003, 04:51 PM

I noticed you asked upstream how long was it after the G4 Tower was announced that the G3 (Pismo) Powerbooks were updated.

G4 PowerMac (PCI) - September 1st 1999
G4 Powerbook - January 9th 2001

So your answer is almost a year and a half between Powerbooks going G4 and the PowerMac going G4.

NOT that 16 months is the normal length of time to turn a chip around to be put into a laptop. To wit:

G3 PowerMac (beige) - November 11th 1997
G3 Powerbook (3400) - November 15th 1997

Four days, at least according to theapplemuseum.com.

Don't let this be any indicator as I'm sure Apple wants faster chips in the Powerbook like yesterday. This being said don't believe the fools here thinking the G5 will be a-comin', ain't happening, too much technology to figure out as of yet. Hopefully by beginning of year though so about six months between G5 PMac and G5 PB... or so we can only hope... knowing Apple though it could be longer sadly.

JSRockit

Sep 14, 2003, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by wood_e
I don't think anyone gives a rats ass about new iMacs..... ohh a speed bump for a computer that people mostly use for internet, light gaming and other small tasks.

I think you are underestimating the importance of the iMac to Apple (ie good seller) and the applications it can be used for (ie not exactly slow).

tychay

Sep 14, 2003, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by mxpiazza
also... anyone with a g5 just take a look at the heatsink on the thing...

As people have already pointed out many times in many threads, the two 2Ghz G5's combine to produce less heat (94 watts) than a single 3.2Ghz Pentium 4 (over 100 watts). Looking at the size of the heat sink has nothing to do the amount of heat dissipation required. Apple chose a huge heat sink to allow them to run the fans at low speed (or off) and thus have a quieter system. I know of no modern desktop PC that approaches the noise level of the G5.

(Some may claim otherwise, but if you put them side-by-side you'll notice the difference.)

and if they're g5, i'll never post another reply on these forums again, that is how sure i am of this. no matter how much anyone wants to or can justify that g5's are *possible*, it's not going to happen.

Not very impressive since most people here are guessing that there will be a G4 in the new powerbooks. The reason has little-nothing to do with heat issues in the G5--as others have noted, IBM's own documentation shows the G5 can consumer less power than the G4 when clocked 1.1Ghz. It has everything to do with the existence of a new Motorola MPC7457. Simple logic is, if Motorola doesn't have a committed purchaser of this chip, why bother designing and producing it? And where can this chip be used besides a Powerbook?

(Some will claim that that would go into the iBook, but then you were left with what Apple would be doing with the new IBM G3 chips which clock in at 1Ghz.)

Originally posted by eric67
This is why Intel has introduced the P4M, which really means portable, than of course the clock speed goes down seriously...
and still the P4M and P4 centrino have a clock adjustment system to extend battery life

There is no such thing as a Pentium 4 centrino. The "Centrino" line uses the Pentium M, which runs at a much slower clockspeed than the Pentium 4M but outperforms it in almost every test due to the cache-starved situation that occurs in notebook PCs. This is probably why Intel calls the whole thing "Centrino"--to distract the consumer from the low Mhz without acknowledging any "Mhz-myth"

I believe the Pentium 4Ms are running at over 2Ghz which isn't that far below the speed of most Pentium 4's. And if you are really stupid, you can get notebooks running at over 3Ghz. (http://www.alienware.com/system_pages/area-51m.aspx) Sure the CPU itself consumers over 100 watts, but whatever floats your boat.

In any case, unlike Intel notebooks, no special notebook versions of desktop chips need to be made in the G4 because the PowerPC uses a fraction of the power for the same performance. So such a design consideration doesn't apply.

Originally posted by wood_e
Apple and Motorola are basically finished. Motorola can't product processors well at all...

Why do I say this? G4s run hot in powerbooks.

While I'll agree that Motorola's yield problems have caused serious problems for Apple. Motorola and Apple are not finished and the G4 does not run hot.

The current G4's aren't even produced at 130nm yet! Comparatively, when the G3 went down to 130nm it ran into issues preventing it from clocking at 1Ghz (though rumor-mongers may say that this was deliberate) and the Apple probably won't introduce a G5 notebook until it is at 90nm. The CPU bandwidth issue you mention can be fixed in later iterations of the G4.

Plus, I don't see the iMac moving to the G5 anytime soon.

wood_e

Sep 14, 2003, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by Photorun
This being said don't believe the fools here thinking the G5 will be a-comin', ain't happening, too much technology to figure out as of yet.

So am I a fool for having a very valid oppinion?

macmanmk

Sep 14, 2003, 04:56 PM

Were you told different prices? What about availability... will they be available immeditately like the iMac?
Just was told that prices would be about par with what they are now and that they WILL be shipping immediately.

wood_e

Sep 14, 2003, 04:57 PM

tychay,

Why would apple put a G5 in their imac? Granted eventually they will but not for at least a year, probably 2.

A g5 in an entry level machine in the next year is not happening.

JSRockit

Sep 14, 2003, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by macmanmk
Just was told that prices would be about par with what they are now and that they WILL be shipping immediately.

Let me guess...by the Janitor at the Soho store?

yujini

Sep 14, 2003, 05:01 PM

but the fact that they upgraded the imacs (which have about the same upgrades, from 1ghz to 1.25 (7455)) this monday seems to show that if they were to just upgrade the new powerbook line to a 1.25ghz (or 1.33 with USB 2.0 and such), they would have done it this monday (or maybe tomorrow). If they are going to announce something in paris, I would expect it to be a G5. If not, then i'd think they wouldn't announce anything at the paris expo. It's either tomorrow we'll see the new powerbook line like last monday, or we'll see something good on tuesday.

That's my guess.

There's no way for steve jobs to say "now let's look at the new powerbooks!!! AND IT USES A G4!!!"
why would he want to do that at the expo?
Has he ever announced a hardware that used an older generation chip (except when it's a new line of hardware)? I'd say that's the reason why they didn't announce the new iMacs at the expo (since it's using a G4).

macmanmk

Sep 14, 2003, 05:02 PM

Let me guess...by the Janitor at the Soho store?
Uh...no. I said the source in Cupertino. You know...the other coast. Open up a map sometime.

Photorun

Sep 14, 2003, 05:06 PM

No wood-e, you're a fool for being wrong, something I'll be happy to discuss after Tuesday with you.

Nutzoids

Sep 14, 2003, 05:12 PM

Play nice kids! We are all on the same side here.

Freg3000

Sep 14, 2003, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by utilizer

MWNY 2002 - BY FAR -- The worst of the worst expos EVER: iDVD released.

I watched the MWNY 2002 keynote, and iDVD was not introduced at that time. It was not even updated. iCal and iSync were announced, more switch ads were released, there was a Jaguar preview, and there was the intro of the 17" iMac. Even with that said, it was still boring.

Originally posted by wood_e

Those who think the powerbook 12" RAM celing is 640MB you are indeed wrong. 1152 is the celing. You can get a 1GB DDR SODIMM and it will work in the powerbook.

Mathematically, you are correct. However, I do remember someone on these boards saying that although you could get the total ram up to 1152 MB, the motherboard inside the 12" PB can only handle a gig. I am not sure who that person was, and even if he/she is correct. I do know that the system profiler sees both chips, but I am unsure if the PowerBook can use all of the ram to its maximum potential.

Finally, there are reasons on both sides for believing what chip will be in the new PowerBooks. Don't call people fools or idiots because they don't agree with your logic. We will all see on Tuesday. :)

tychay

Sep 14, 2003, 05:14 PM

Originally posted by wood_e
tychay,

Why would apple put a G5 in their imac? Granted eventually they will but not for at least a year, probably 2.

A g5 in an entry level machine in the next year is not happening.

Oing?? Please reread my post. I was commenting that Apple and Motorola are not "finished" because the G4 will be in Macs (Powerbooks and iMacs) for a while.

Originally posted by wood_e
but the fact that they upgraded the imacs (which have about the same upgrades, from 1ghz to 1.25 (7455)) this monday seems to show that if they were to just upgrade the new powerbook line to a 1.25ghz (or 1.33 with USB 2.0 and such), they would have done it this monday (or maybe tomorrow). If they are going to announce something in paris, I would expect it to be a G5.

This is faulty logic. The 7455 in the iMac is the same one they've been selling in their towers for over a year. It has yield and heat problems when clocking over 1.25 Ghz. Apple probably can't introduce a new Powerbook any sooner because as speed bump requires the new 7457 (G4) which simply wasn't available, perhaps still isn't available (they could pre-announce).

The same thing probably occurred when the Powerbook G4 was first released in 2001. The video subsystem was not as new as it could be which implies Apple was again waiting on the CPU availability.

wood_e

Sep 14, 2003, 05:15 PM

Photorun,

First of all think before you post something in a public forum.

One being wrong is subject to the beliefs of the beholder.

I haven't said there will definitley be G5s Tuesday. I said it was possible. I still think G4s are going to be announced unfortunatley. So how is that wrong?

According to you it isn't.

ColoJohnBoy

Sep 14, 2003, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by snofseth
This better be real I'm getting tired of these rumors, but if not a G5 i wont care I'm fine with my 12" until they go G5 sure the dvi would be nice but i cant afford an external monitor so dont care about that, but I am pissed my 12'' wobles but I have all 4 rubber feet. Lets see if these updates will be worthy of telling someone like my uncle or father they sould get one I hope so!, by the way when will they be annouced is it 4am in the moring tuesday? That would be cool wake up 2 new powerbooks maybe even something else panther or a new somethinng.

Punctuation?

wood_e

Sep 14, 2003, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by tychay
Oing?? Please reread my post. I was commenting that Apple and Motorola are not "finished" because the G4 will be in Macs (Powerbooks and iMacs) for a while.

Sorry for that. I still believe that Apple and Moto are on the outs as far as upper level computing is concerned. Steve hates motorola.

ae86_16v

Sep 14, 2003, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by hmmm
3 upgrades, 3 models, face it, it's going to be throughout the whole ranger, I mean, why buy a 12" PB when you can get a 900 G3 ibook for so much less with just as much performance (check out the benchmarks) - also both the 12 and 15 is unavailable for most Apple resellers, so it has to be those, especially when you can buy a 17" in just a few days - well whatever it is, I'm looking forward to tuesday!

Not with Altivec enhanced applications.

Mac User Canada

Sep 14, 2003, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by daveschroeder

According to IBM's PowerPC 970 documentation (http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/A1387A29AC1C2AE087256C5200611780/$file/PPC970_MPF2002.pdf), a 1.2 GHz PowerPC 970 comes in at 19W power dissipation (typical), while a 1.8 GHz PowerPC 970 comes in at 42W.

Meanwhile, Motorola's PowerPC 74xx documentation (http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/taxonomy.jsp?nodeId=03C1TR046708718653) indicates that a 1 GHz PowerPC 7455, the latest processor about which data is available, dissipates 35.5W (typical) (and 50W max).[1]

Power dissipation (typical) per MHz:

PowerPC 7455: 0.0355W
PowerPC 970 (1.1v): 0.0158W
PowerPC 970 (1.3v): 0.0233W

It's easy to see that, clock for clock, the PowerPC 970 consumes much less power - and therefore dissipates less heat - than the PowerPC 74xx. The current 1.8 GHz G5 numbers aren't significantly higher than a 1.0 GHz G4...it's therefore not hard to imagine the G5 making its debut in a portable machine in the future.

That said, the new machines on Tuesday will likely not be G5s, but it's not because the G5's are "waaay too hot", when in fact just the opposite it true.

There is no doubt that there is a direct coorelation between a processor's power consumption and the amount of heat it dissipates.

However, motherboards are populated with more than just processor chips.

Although G5s may be in the same ballpark as G4s with respect to heat dissipation, the overall dissipation of a G5 motherboard remains unknown to us at this time and may well be just a bit too hot for a laptop.

Or it may be perfectly fine.

Quoting manufacturer's chip-specific specifications serves as a useful guidline but does not provide a complete picture of potential new motherboards.

We'll simply have to wait and see, as painful as that is. ;-)

MUC

ae86_16v

Sep 14, 2003, 05:31 PM

Originally posted by mxpiazza
ok buddy, before you run around throwing stuff around like you're better that someone else, i said they were too hot AT THESE PRODUCTION PROCESSES AND SPEEDS (1.6-2.0). I said nothing about lower clock speeds, and I am writing on the assumption that 1.6-2.0 are the only g5 processors that are being mass produced. so settle down.

IBM mass produces the 1.2 - 2.0 GHz PPC 970 (G5) processors.

joeyjojoe

Sep 14, 2003, 05:33 PM

has there been any information about availability? will it actually be available on tuesday or just announced. i'm assuming announced since no resellers have said they received new boxes from apple.

panphage

Sep 14, 2003, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by macrumors12345
The statement keeps getting repeated because it is, in fact, true.

The Moto link you provided gives the specs for the *original* 7455 processor revision - not the current revision. If you look at a more recent document (http://e-www.motorola.com/files/32bit/doc/fact_sheet/PPCSALESFACT.pdf), you will see that the current revision of the MPC 7455 (released in Oct/Dec) dissipates only 14 watts at 1 Ghz (well, 13 watts at 933 Mhz and 15 watts at 1067 Mhz - you can do the imputation). So the 1.2 Ghz 970 would use 35% more power than the 1 Ghz 7455, which is already considered to be at the upper limits of power consumption for the Powerbooks (otherwise Apple would have put 1.1 or 1.2 Ghz 7455 processors in the Powerbooks months ago).

Please read your documents more carefully. That document was released in 2003, so the Oct/Dec comment means THIS Oct/Dec. That means those chips DO NOT EXIST!!! Just like the 7457 DOES NOT EXIST. I mean, they might be floating around somewhere in some R&D lab, but we have no proof. Another bit of evidence incriminating your holy grail PDF is that is says the 7457 is available in Q2 2003. I don't know where you live, but on Earth is is now nearly the end of Q3 2003 and no one seems to have 7457s.

It also shows a 933MHz 7455 that DOES exist as a consumer product using 19W typical. This is the exact same part and exact same numbers quoted earlier, this is the part that uses 30W max. This is the "1.0" chip that has been in powerbooks for like a year now. A 970 @ 1.8GHz uses 42W max. That's an 80% clockspeed gain for a 30% increase in power usage. Clock the 970 down to 1.4GHz and you have matched the currently in powerbooks 1.0GHz G4e. Unfortunately, the 1.4GHz 970 has never been proven to exist. The old rumors said the 970 would start at 1.4, but there's been no confirmation that IBM is producing clocked-down 970s. It seems like the COULD, I mean, there's a lot of unused capacity at Fishkill, but who knows if the ARE?

The problem getting a G5 system into a powerbook isn't going to be the heat or the size of the processor. It's going to come down to whether apple managed to design an ASIC that isn't going to eat batteries and make toast. They've had about 18 months to do so. We'll see Tuesday if they succeeded.

Now, if Motorolla has actually pulled off a miracle and shipped 7457s early like they said they could, that would still make a great laptop chip. 1.3Ghz, at a great 16W typical, well that's a good chip. If only it could take advantage of DDR Ram and a faster FSB, the G4 would be great. The poor thing is just starving because Motorolla either can't or can't be bothered to figure out how to get it fatter pipes.

nalfein

Sep 14, 2003, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by ae86_16v
IBM mass produces the 1.2 - 2.0 GHz PPC 970 (G5) processors.

Do you have some documents/links to proove 1.2ghz mass production??

panphage

Sep 14, 2003, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by ae86_16v
IBM mass produces the 1.2 - 2.0 GHz PPC 970 (G5) processors.

Ok, I think G5s are possible now, and I want them to come out tuesday, but..ahem...

PROVE IT.

Please document production of any 970 clocked below 1.6GHz.

EDIT: Heheh, someone's quicker on the draw.

zync

Sep 14, 2003, 05:38 PM

displaced

Sep 14, 2003, 05:40 PM

No matter what the rated clock speed, all G5 processors are identical. All that decides what speed they're run at is how well the device performs during testing.

So, should there be a requirement for G5s to be run at just 1.2GHz, there would be no change required to the production process.

Indeed, if a viable platform is found for sub-1.6GHz G5 processors, they'd be opening up a market for chips whose fabrication quality limits them clockspeed-wise, and would otherwise not be saleable.

Edit:

Just to clarify. Fabrication plants do not make "1.6 GHz" or "2.0 GHz" processors. They just make "processors". Testing then establishes how your manufacturing variances have panned out, and what your yield is at various clock-speeds.

XnavxeMiyyep

Sep 14, 2003, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by Photorun
No wood-e, you're a fool for being wrong, something I'll be happy to discuss after Tuesday with you. So are you saying anyone who is ever wrong a fool, or just wood-e would be a fool for being wrong?

orion123

Sep 14, 2003, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by dhdave
Ok, but then why is Steve giving the keynote. Upping the 15" to the new ddr architecture and giving it a 1.25 ghz G4 isn't worth more than 5 minutes. dh

Yeah cause 2 years ago when all he did was announce the Flower Power iMac in Paris, that was really groundbreaking.

Steve Jobs means nothing, certainly not G5

foniks2020

Sep 14, 2003, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by panphage
Ok, I think G5s are possible now, and I want them to come out tuesday, but..ahem...

PROVE IT.

Please document production of any 970 clocked below 1.6GHz.

EDIT: Heheh, someone's quicker on the draw.

What I haven't seen posted is the simple fact that either (a) the current G5s are overclocked by Apple (as usual, which would explain all the fans/heatsink stuff) or (b) the G5s are not overclocked but you can simply 'underclock them' down to 1 or 1.2 Ghz (which Apple has also been known to do for various reasons, 'fanless' being the operative reason AFAIK)

So considering these two very simple and minor possible tweaks I don't see any reason why 1 or 1.2 Ghz 970 chips couldn't be made available for PBs. Now the redesigned Motherboard et al is a whole different can of worms....

Edit:
Someone beat me to this revelation but the point still stands

pyrotoaster

Sep 14, 2003, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by orion123
Yeah cause 2 years ago when all he did was announce the Flower Power iMac in Paris, that was really groundbreaking.

Steve Jobs means nothing, certainly not G5
Steve Jobs means nothing?

Well, whatever you say Mr. Gates. :rolleyes:

petey

Sep 14, 2003, 06:04 PM

I really hope tuesday is the day. I have been hoping to become a new Mac user since WWDc, but I told myself to wait for the updates. My fingers are crossed.

Tom Golden

Sep 14, 2003, 06:32 PM

"All of the new models will run a Jaguar OS variant code-named Blackrider. Like Smeagol, the build train for the Power Mac G5, Blackrider is a special version of Mac OS X 10.2.7 with hardware support for the new models."-Thinksecret

If I am wrong correct me...but I thought that 10.2.7 was to enhance functionability for the g5, if the powerbooks don't have a g5 in them why bother putting a variant of 10.2.7?

Mineral

Sep 14, 2003, 06:33 PM

I can't wait for Tuesday. I have my mouse finger ready to click "buy" and my bank account healthy.

I just hope it is really something worth being this excited over.

Apple never seems to fail to surprise me, though.. 2.0Ghz G5's being the most recent HUGE surprise.. I was expecting 1.5 at the MOST.

And, btw, yes a 1.2 Ghz G5 would be a lot faster than a G4, because of faster RAM, more bus speed, etc.

greenstork

Sep 14, 2003, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by cyril
Hi..I know you are looking for somebody with a coverage of the keynote... i will be there... I'm currently trying to set up something to have a live coverage.

Wait, don't tell me. You might not be able to cover the keynote because YOU'RE STILL WAITING ON A POWERBOOK!

Roller

Sep 14, 2003, 06:45 PM

G4, G5, 12", 15".....

The only thing that's undeniable is that Apple has gotten very good at keeping secrets over the past few years.

jouster

Sep 14, 2003, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by ae86_16v
IBM mass produces the 1.2 - 2.0 GHz PPC 970 (G5) processors.

This is simply not true. There is no evidence that IBM is currently producing 970s at any speeds other than those used by Apple.

Of course, I'm sure they could, but they'd have to charge less, and since they are currently working flat out to sell the more expensive 1.6 to 2.0s, why bother?

skanker

Sep 14, 2003, 06:55 PM

Just to distract a little bit from the very intense G4/G5 PB discussion, here are my two cents:

On tuesday we will see – besides the PB updates – a new microphone for the iPod together with a firmware upgrade to add recording capability... iMic anyone? :)

displaced

Sep 14, 2003, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by jouster
This is simply not true. There is no evidence that IBM is currently producing 970s at any speeds other than those used by Apple.

Of course, I'm sure they could, but they'd have to charge less, and since they are currently working flat out to sell the more expensive 1.6 to 2.0s, why bother?

All G5s cost the same to produce, since there is only the one process used to create them.

(edit: although obviously there's a higher markup on the higher-rated products. But if there's a significant percentage of yield which is rated lower, being able to sell these on is also good)

It'd be interesting to track down some figures on the yields at different clock ratings. As I noted earlier, chip fabs do not produce processors at X or Y GHz. You churn the chips out, test, and sell them at whatever speed they work at.

The only difference between a 1.2 GHz and a 2.0 GHz G5 is the quality and tolerance of the final product.

It all depends on how predictable the fab plant's output is. AFAIK, Apple are the only company building 970-based systems. If IBM have a certain amount of cores unable to reach 1.6 GHz, but run fine at 1.2, they may be an option.

Anyone know of a breakdown of 970 production, broken down by clock-speed and percentage of yield?

Lord Bodak

Sep 14, 2003, 06:59 PM

Originally posted by Freg3000
Mathematically, you are correct. However, I do remember someone on these boards saying that although you could get the total ram up to 1152 MB, the motherboard inside the 12" PB can only handle a gig. I am not sure who that person was, and even if he/she is correct. I do know that the system profiler sees both chips, but I am unsure if the PowerBook can use all of the ram to its maximum potential.

Actually, I believe if you read the developer's notes for the 12" PB, it will actually handle 4 gigs of RAM. Of course, by the time a 4 gig chip is available for a reasonable price, odds are no one will be using the current 12" PB anymore.

kwajo.com

Sep 14, 2003, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by utilizer

Just to humor some people, here are some more highlights in Apple expo history:
MWNY 2001 - The G4 Cube is introduced!
MWSF 2002 - New G4 towers, Cube is discontinued; TiPB upgrades.
MWNY 2002 - BY FAR -- The worst of the worst expos EVER: iDVD released.
MWSF 2003: PowerBooks 12 and 17 models released! An entire slew of stuff for everyone to enjoy.
WWDC 2003: G5s! 'Nuff said.

how could you leave the G4 iMac out of MWSF 2002?!?! that was pretty major (and a pleasant design surprise). btw you are so right about MWNY 2002. . . that was my first keynote, and it almost put me off. but i kept watching them and have been rewarded. sometimes they are fun just for Steve's sense of humor. for example I loved iChat AV's introduction, and the shot of the bull in the pasture when referring to our "competitors" during this past keynote (i hope i got that right)

p.s. minor update is coming. i say this because I want my BigAlbook to stay fresher longer

Les Kern

Sep 14, 2003, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by XnavxeMiyyep
If the G5 truly is cooler than the G4 at those clock speeds, then I don't see why they wouldn't put it into at least the 15" and 17".

It's a G5.
It also comes with a 110v 15,000 rpm ducted fan housing that straps on your back like a HomeLite blower/vac to cool the chip.
Honestly, why clockdown a G5 when you have G4's that are plenty fast and tested tough?
If it is a G5, I'll send a picture of me eating my new(est) 15" that just shipped.

bentmywookie

Sep 14, 2003, 07:08 PM

I really can't imagine Apple dropping G5 powerbooks tuesday - they are not hyping the Paris expo whatsoever.

They let people know that something was going to happen with the release of the gen 2 ipod, and similarly, Apple themselves were generating some hype with WWDC this year.

They are reallly just not putting out any word regarding the Paris expo, so I really wouldn't expect anything beyond a speedbump.

I would love it though if the 12" were brought into parity with the 17" and 15" and also given a thinner enclosure.

crees!

Sep 14, 2003, 07:10 PM

Originally posted by petey
I really hope tuesday is the day. I have been hoping to become a new Mac user since WWDc, but I told myself to wait for the updates. My fingers are crossed.

Right there with you skilly.

bradz_id

Sep 14, 2003, 07:12 PM

It is obvious what will happen. The $1999 to $2999 prices are correct. The 15" PowerBook isn't the only computer that dying for a revision. What about the iBook? If they update the iBook, the 12" PowerBook won't be much of a PowerBook if it's as good as the iBooks. The solution? Drop the 12" PowerBook from the PowerBook Line, put a white case on it, Put a 1.1GHz PowerPC 750GX G3 (GOBI) in it and brand it "The New iBook. So now the $1999 to $2999 prices make sense. They are for 15" and 17" PowerBooks. Remember that ThinkSecret article here: http://www.thinksecret.com/news/augustpowerbooks.html "The hardware projects, known internally as Q16 and Q41, consist of upgrades to the the 15-inch and 17-inch PowerBook G4. The projects were scheduled to complete in the first part of August. There was no new codename for any 12" PowerBook at all. Apple will release new iBooks at the same time to reduce demand on the new PowerBooks.

rog

Sep 14, 2003, 07:13 PM

My take on this is, expect Apple to disappoint. They usually do. Even when they do something decent, like the G5 announcement and the 17" powerbook or the FP iMac, they ship in quantity months later, usually 1-3 months later than they originally said, so that by the time they come out, Wintels have gained another 300 MHz and dropped $200 more so the macs that were good when announced once again become so-so deals at best.

WM.

Sep 14, 2003, 07:13 PM

Originally posted by wood_e
Look at it this way. the powerbooks have DDR (except for the 15") right now, but can the G4 take advantage of DDR ram? NO it can't, and since theres DDR channels already on the boards how hard would it be to put a DDR aware CPU on, new controlers andan ATA bus? Not very in my oppinion.
That's not how it works at all. The G5 will require a totally redesigned motherboard, because:

1) It uses a different type of bus (to the system controller aka northbridge). Therefore:
2) You need a different controller. In the case of Apple's G5 architecture, it looks like that's the U3, which has a different interface (HyperTransport) to the I/O controller. Therefore:
3) You need a different I/O controller. In this case it looks like that's K2, which may or may not have a PCI bus (you need one for the PC Card slot). Therefore:
4) You may need a PCI controller. Whether this would be the same one (of unknown make and model) as on the 1.6 GHz PMG5 or a totally different one, we don't know. (The 1.8 and 2x2.0 G5's use an AMD-made controller that probably wouldn't be suitable for a PowerBook.)

WM

edit: D'OH!!! Just double-checked, K2 does have a PCI bus, and it would be suitable for a CardBus slot (AFAICT). So strike #4 above. But my point still stands: you can't just pop the G5 onto the existing motherboard. It would need to be totally redesigned.

Macaddict16

Sep 14, 2003, 07:14 PM

At best buy I was looking through the sku's and found a brand new sku for a 15" powerbook. That is all it said it did not say G4 or G5. The price was $1999 and its instock date was 9-16-03 and its out stock was 3-16-04.

Macaddict16

crees!

Sep 14, 2003, 07:15 PM

Originally posted by Les Kern
It's a G5.
It also comes with a 110v 15,000 rpm ducted fan housing that straps on your back like a HomeLite blower/vac to cool the chip.
Honestly, why clockdown a G5 when you have G4's that are plenty fast and tested tough?
If it is a G5, I'll send a picture of me eating my new(est) 15" that just shipped.

A picture you ask? For those who missed it in someone elses post earlier:

http://chris.reemergemedia.com/images/pbg5.jpg

WM.

Sep 14, 2003, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by s10
I cannot remember... did they update the G3 Powerbooks after the introduction of the G4 Desktops?
G4 desktops: September 1999.

Pismo G3 PowerBooks (400/500 MHz): January 2000.

HTH
WM

Hugin777

Sep 14, 2003, 07:20 PM

Originally posted by greenstork
Originally posted by cyril
I'm currently trying to set up something to have a live coverage.
Wait, don't tell me. You might not be able to cover the keynote because YOU'RE STILL WAITING ON A POWERBOOK!

ROFL :D

xtekdiver

Sep 14, 2003, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by DrGonzo
Could it be? The last powerbook rumor! I can only hope.

No, there should be one more tomorrow. :P

MasterMac

Sep 14, 2003, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by xtekdiver
No, there should be one more tomorrow. :P

And then another one right before the keynote begins :)

JSRockit

Sep 14, 2003, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by macmanmk
Uh...no. I said the source in Cupertino. You know...the other coast. Open up a map sometime.

The thread I responded to had no location. So it was the Janitor there instead?

Drinahn

Sep 14, 2003, 07:24 PM

Originally posted by nick.hill
Would apple be going down the tablec PC kinda route anytime soon? If at all....

Bleh, I hope not. Tablet PCs suck. Tablet PCs are the realisation of an attempt to solve the ePaper problem without having to do the tricky paper bit.

Till ePaper comes around, you'll need a decent PDA and a decent Powerbook. After ePaper, you'll need all three! yay!

Oh just to stir the pot a bit... I'm still very keen for the 17" to go Quad G5. ;-)

Regarding those who say: "Who'd buy a G4 now?" Answer: I would.. I'm using my 1GHz TiBook 15"... had it for 8 gruelling months... awesome beast, very happy... but it makes sense to update it for me. Keep bleeding edge and sell this one off.

pyrotoaster

Sep 14, 2003, 07:25 PM

Originally posted by bentmywookie
I really can't imagine Apple dropping G5 powerbooks tuesday - they are not hyping the Paris expo whatsoever.
Apple usually doesn't hype keynotes very much.
Originally posted by bradz_id
It is obvious what will happen. The $1999 to $2999 prices are correct. The 15" PowerBook isn't the only computer that dying for a revision. What about the iBook? If they update the iBook, the 12" PowerBook won't be much of a PowerBook if it's as good as the iBooks. The solution? Drop the 12" PowerBook from the PowerBook Line, put a white case on it, Put a 1.1GHz PowerPC 750GX G3 (GOBI) in it and brand it "The New iBook.
That's not obvious at all, or likely. The 12" Powerbook is doing very well. There's no reason to discontinue it.

WM.

Sep 14, 2003, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by utilizer
Nope...The Pismos were the last in the series of G3 PowerBooks, released during the summer.
No. To repeat my post of a few minutes ago, they were introduced in January 2000.
Then in September of 2000, G4s were announced.
No. To repeat myself again, it was 1999.
MWSF 2001 brought the Titanium PowerBook G4 at 400 Mhz and 500 Mhz.
I have a Pismo 400 mhz and bought one shortly before the G4s were marketed.

Just to humor some people, here are some more highlights in Apple expo history:
MWNY 2001 - The G4 Cube is introduced!
No. It was 2000.
MWSF 2002 - New G4 towers, Cube is discontinued; TiPB upgrades.
No, no, and no. The G4s were upgraded to 800, 933, and 2x1000 MHz about three weeks after the expo. The Cube was discontinued in about June 2001. There were TiBook updates in October 2001 (550/667), December 2001 (combo drive available for the first time, with available upgrade for people who'd bought PBs in the previous two months), and April 2002 (667/800).
MWNY 2002 - BY FAR -- The worst of the worst expos EVER: iDVD released.
No. Someone else addressed this above. I'll add that iDVD was introduced at MWSF 2001, along with new Power Macs (466, 533, 667, and 733 MHz, with available SuperDrive for the first time).
MWSF 2003: PowerBooks 12 and 17 models released! An entire slew of stuff for everyone to enjoy.
WWDC 2003: G5s! 'Nuff said.
Yes, finally.

No offense intended, just making sure the truth is out there...

WM

psxndc

Sep 14, 2003, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by petey
I really hope tuesday is the day. I have been hoping to become a new Mac user since WWDc, but I told myself to wait for the updates. My fingers are crossed.

My fingers are crossed too because it feels liek we've been waiting since WWII for PB updates.

-p

adamfilip

Sep 14, 2003, 07:34 PM

one thing with G5's in a laptop.

the G5 processors in the New PowerMacs are desktop processors you cant just plug one into a laptop and expect it to work..

also the packaging of the g5 chip is too large to fit in a laptop
and IBM would need to develop a paper thin packing setup just made to notebooks/laptops.

i havent heard of any reports stating that IBM is working on adapting the G5 to a thin packaging system..

so i dont expect g5 laptops for a while.

but IBM could have developed one and not disclosed the info until the new Powerbooks are out.

we shall See!

WM.

Sep 14, 2003, 07:39 PM

Originally posted by JSRockit
That is exactly how I see it. If they brought their desktop machines up to par...then the pro laptop needs to be brought up to par as well. The iMac is a consumer model, so we cannot use that for any indication of what will happen to the pro level laptops.
Actually, the G4 iMac has been an OK predictor of what will happen with the PowerBooks, and vice versa. When 800 MHz iMacs came out in January '02, they were quite a bit better than the PBs, which were then at 667 MHz. Three months later, the PBs went to 800 MHz (as well as getting DVI, a better video "card", a higher-resolution screen, etc.). In November '02, the PowerBooks went to 1 GHz for the first time. In January '03, they got DDR RAM for the first time. Three or four weeks after that, the iMacs hit 1 GHz and got DDR (on the 17" model) for the first time. Those last two introductions (12" and 17" PBs and 1 GHz iMacs) also brought us the Intrepid system controller, along with internal Bluetooth and AirPort Extreme.

I may have forgotten something in there, but I think I remembered enough to make my point: the PowerBooks and iMacs (and the eMacs too, I suppose) have much more in common than the PowerBooks and the Power Macs when it comes to adding features and the like. There are exceptions, of course, like FW800, but still...

HTH
WM

ilovemacs

Sep 14, 2003, 07:42 PM

First post on these boards, and i must say we got a good G4/G5 discussion going on here.

Here is everything that I'd like to see happen at the Expo on Tuesday @ 3am Eastern.

--------------------------------------------------
I currently own a 12"- Superdrive which I payed 1999 for 7 months ago.

This thing DOES get EXTREMELY Hot! There were red marks on my leg the other day from resting this on it.

so that brings me to #1:

An Updated 12" with significant cooling upgrades. A bit faster and a bit thinner would be nice as well. but leave them at the same price they are now 1599 and 1799.

#2:
I really want a 15" so bad that I put this 12" up on Ebay tonight, in hopes of a 15" getting a MAJOR update on Tuesday. I really want a backlit keyboard, and the larger screen.

#3: Either having Panther released or a release date within the next few weeks of that OS.

#4: A recording Device for the iPod which would be superior to CD quality sound, this is long overdue. and possibly some type of FM radio transmitter for the iPod. I'm honestly surprised Apple of all people hasn't released these devices earlier.

---------------------------------------------

This is what I hope will happen on Tuesday. I'm gunna take a nap monday afternoon, so I can be up at 3am to see what's going on over in Paris.

If anything i said above is indeed correct, I will have my Apple Loan Account Number Ready to buy something new from Apple!

WM.

Sep 14, 2003, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by Tom Golden
"All of the new models will run a Jaguar OS variant code-named Blackrider. Like Smeagol, the build train for the Power Mac G5, Blackrider is a special version of Mac OS X 10.2.7 with hardware support for the new models."-Thinksecret

If I am wrong correct me...but I thought that 10.2.7 was to enhance functionability for the g5, if the powerbooks don't have a g5 in them why bother putting a variant of 10.2.7?
Uh, the Smeagol variant of 10.2.7 was for the G5s. The Blackrider variant is for the new iMacs and PowerBooks (if they stay G4) and whatever else may come out before Panther ships pre-installed.

The Blackrider variant has since been renamed 10.2.8.

HTH
WM

Loopy

Sep 14, 2003, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by psxndc
I'm glad this is happening early in the morning. Since my surgery is at 2:30 PM EST, if something goes wrong, at least I can die saying I finally saw the PB updates.

-p

PS It is minor surgery (abdominal hernia) so don't anyone go getting worried.

Can you please order a 15 and just in case something goes wrong can you send it to me for safe keeping.

WM.

Sep 14, 2003, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by Lord Bodak
Actually, I believe if you read the developer's notes for the 12" PB, it will actually handle 4 gigs of RAM.
Well, I can't find it...the table listing the possible DIMM configurations is kind of hard to replicate and I think it's all screwed up anyway, but there is this footnote:

"1 GB is a theoretical max and is reserved for future expansion. 1 GB dual die package is not supported."

That's the only place it mentions DIMMs bigger than 512 MB or RAM capacity beyond 640 MB.
Of course, by the time a 4 gig chip is available for a reasonable price, odds are no one will be using the current 12" PB anymore.
Quite true. :)

WM

jouster

Sep 14, 2003, 07:53 PM

Originally posted by ilovemacs
First post on these boards, and i must say we got a good G4/G5 discussion going on here.

Here is everything that I'd like to see happen at the Expo on Tuesday @ 3am Eastern.

--------------------------------------------------
I currently own a 12"- Superdrive which I payed 1999 for 7 months ago.

This thing DOES get EXTREMELY Hot! There were red marks on my leg the other day from resting this on it.

so that brings me to #1:

An Updated 12" with significant cooling upgrades. A bit faster and a bit thinner would be nice as well. but leave them at the same price they are now 1599 and 1799.

Tough to get faster, thinner AND cooler all at once.

tizza

Sep 14, 2003, 07:53 PM

At last I can rest in peace! (hopefully) ;)

WM.

Sep 14, 2003, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by adamfilip
one thing with G5's in a laptop.

the G5 processors in the New PowerMacs are desktop processors you cant just plug one into a laptop and expect it to work...
Define "desktop processor".
also the packaging of the g5 chip is too large to fit in a laptop
What packaging? It's just a hunk o' silicon on a ceramic (???) plate, just like any other chip...
and IBM would need to develop a paper thin packing setup just made to notebooks/laptops.

i havent heard of any reports stating that IBM is working on adapting the G5 to a thin packaging system..

so i dont expect g5 laptops for a while.

but IBM could have developed one and not disclosed the info until the new Powerbooks are out.
Seems to me like the main "thick" part of the G5 as implemented in the Power Macs is all the stuff between the heatsink and the actual processor die, and the cooling stuff for the power supply section of the module, etc. etc. etc. But my guess is that that's all Apple-designed, and in any case with a slower, cooler processor, maybe the design could be different. No one really knows at this point.

In case anyone cares, I give G5 PowerBooks between a 33% and 40% chance of showing up in Paris.

FWIW
WM

jouster

Sep 14, 2003, 08:00 PM

Originally posted by WM.

In case anyone cares, I give G5 PowerBooks between a 33% and 40% chance of showing up in Paris.

FWIW
WM

33%? wow, that's exact!!!

jk!,

Welcome to Macrumors!!

aras

Sep 14, 2003, 08:01 PM

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
After reviewing all the current G5 Benchmarks I wonder how much faster a 1.25 G5 would really be compared to a 1.25 G4.

I agree - on most applications I don't think it will make much difference. Therefore until G5's can be 1.6 or 2.0 Gighz in Powerbooks - there is no reason to go G5 except for possibly battery savings. Though it probably requires a whole new motherboard.

Powerbook G5

Sep 14, 2003, 08:04 PM

Well it will be nice to have a new PowerBook released. The other day I spent a few hours working on my laptop trying to reinstall/clean the system folder and all because for some unknown reason everything would quit on me for no apparent reason and cause me to have to restart. I've since got it working again, but my nearly 5 year old PowerBook is definitely showing its age and nodging me softly into the direction of a new PowerBook.

WM.

Sep 14, 2003, 08:04 PM

Originally posted by displaced
All G5s cost the same to produce, since there is only the one process used to create them.

(edit: although obviously there's a higher markup on the higher-rated products. But if there's a significant percentage of yield which is rated lower, being able to sell these on is also good)

It'd be interesting to track down some figures on the yields at different clock ratings. As I noted earlier, chip fabs do not produce processors at X or Y GHz. You churn the chips out, test, and sell them at whatever speed they work at.

The only difference between a 1.2 GHz and a 2.0 GHz G5 is the quality and tolerance of the final product.

It all depends on how predictable the fab plant's output is. AFAIK, Apple are the only company building 970-based systems. If IBM have a certain amount of cores unable to reach 1.6 GHz, but run fine at 1.2, they may be an option.
I think IBM has announced that they're going to make some Linux blades with the 970, but AFAIK they haven't materialized.

Otherwise, I totally agree with both your posts, and just to make it real simple and easy for everybody else, here's how they make chips:

1) Make chip. All of them are created equal, as much as possible.
2) Test chip. Determine maximum stable clock speed for given temperature. (See Sonnet scandal of a few months ago. Fortunately that seems to have blown over, since they were doing nothing wrong or deceptive whatsoever.)
3) Stamp chip with appropriate clock speed and temperature--which may be based on what a customer wants. Again, see Sonnet scandal for more on this.

WM

SiliconAddict

Sep 14, 2003, 08:07 PM

:rolleyes: This is getting really, REALLY pathetic. Look. If apple couldn't ship a G5 PowerBook back when kids were going back to school they aren't shipping it NOW! This is moto's fault. Period. End of story. Enough already.
I'm going to be the first person to post that everyone shut up about G5's when the expo announces that everything is still G4. There won’t be any special edition. There won’t be any sneak surprise release. You are going to get speed bumps in the line, with some extra tweaking on the 15” line, and that is it. It ain't going to happen people.
1st quarter 2004 will most likely bring about the announced of the G5 PowerBooks and ship 2nd quarter.

Moto screwed Apple’s plans. No mystery here. Move on Columbo.

WM.

Sep 14, 2003, 08:15 PM

Originally posted by jouster
33%? wow, that's exact!!!
:D Well, my initial guesstimate was 40% (which I posted earlier in another thread), because it's nice and round and I don't think there's a 50% chance of G5 PBs. Then I decided that was too high, so I figured 1/3 (33%) was the next nice, round number down.

I totally see both sides of the argument here, and as I posted in that other thread we're buying a 15" regardless. A G5 will just be that much better, but only if MS can get off their ass and get VPC working on it--I'd like to have some PC apps running on the PB by the start of next summer. But I digress. :)
jk!,

Welcome to Macrumors!!
Thanks! I'm actually approaching five months of posting here, I think, but I tend to mostly post about news items...unless I'm bored, in which case I venture into the rest of the forums. :) This is probably the most I've posted in one thread except for that quasi-flamewar a few weeks ago...in both threads I've just been trying to clear up mis/disinformation...there can be a lot of it sometimes...

WM

Phil Of Mac

Sep 14, 2003, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by eric67
they have to design a brand new mother board, if they do so, they want the latest technology (and even the future ones) to be included. in addition to desgin new chipset for the G5
I will be very (positively) suprised if Apple can intro a G5 laptop less than 3-4 month after announcing a G5 desktop....

What makes you think they haven't already been working on that new motherboard? Apple has more than one design team.

Originally posted by mxpiazza
ok buddy, before you run around throwing stuff around like you're better that someone else, i said they were too hot AT THESE PRODUCTION PROCESSES AND SPEEDS (1.6-2.0). I said nothing about lower clock speeds, and I am writing on the assumption that 1.6-2.0 are the only g5 processors that are being mass produced. so settle down.

That's a bad assumption :)

Originally posted by Vlade
They would put the G5 in the high end 17" ones WAY before the cheaper 15" ones, at least thats what I would do.

The 17 inch isn't supposed to be more high end, it's just supposed to have a bigger screen. The PowerBook line in general is supposed to be high-end. The iBook is supposed to be cheaper. There isn't a high and low end that correlates with screen size.

Originally posted by jouster
It does, but there is some doubt as to whether IBM can currently produce enought to use in PMs as well as PBs.

What the hell are you talking about? They have Fishkill!

Originally posted by utilizer
MWNY 2002 - BY FAR -- The worst of the worst expos EVER: iDVD released.

MWNY 2002 was the worst expo ever? Does no one remember Amelio's debacle at MWSF 1996?

To add one:

MW Boston 1997: The deal with Microsoft. Steve's first keynote.

BlueDjinn

Sep 14, 2003, 08:16 PM

Everyone else is chiming in, so here's my predictions:

Current 12" PB Combo: Price Drop Only ($1,599 -> $1,499)

Current 12" PB SuperDrive: Price Drop Only ($1,799 -> $1,699)

New 15.4" PB SuperDrive: $1,999
1.0 GHz G4 AlBook (side ports)
Backlighting, FW800, AirportExtreme (card included), Bluetooth (card included)
256 MB DDR-PC2700

New 17" PB ComboDrive: $2,499
1.0 GHz G4
FW800, AirportExtreme (card included), Bluetooth (card included)
256 MB DDR-PC2700

New 17" PB SuperDrive: $2,999
1.33 GHz G4
FW800, AirportExtreme (card included), Bluetooth (card included)
512 MB DDR-PC2700

(basically, instead of 15" Combo/15" Super/17" Super, they'd go to 15" Super/17" Combo/17" Super)

utilizer

Sep 14, 2003, 08:17 PM

...and say the 17 in. gets dual 1.25 G4s and is convertible, i.e., converts to a tablet pc to a laptop and vice versa.
That's the bombshell. At least duals will be enough but hey, if it's G5s, bring 'em on! I really don't believe that though.
Realistically speaking, dual 1.25 G4s and that's that. Oh, and to those that say it's inefficient to run duals on battery power, I agree.
That's why the new PowerBooks will have a feature similar to the new G5s where you have a variant of the slewing component, meaning as soon as you unplug your PowerBook, one processor is disabled, therefore more battery life. When you plug it back in, boom: You've got your duals back! Now, that'll be neat!

DakotaGuy

Sep 14, 2003, 08:18 PM

Originally posted by yujini
There's no way for steve jobs to say "now let's look at the new powerbooks!!! AND IT USES A G4!!!"
why would he want to do that at the expo?
Has he ever announced a hardware that used an older generation chip (except when it's a new line of hardware)? I'd say that's the reason why they didn't announce the new iMacs at the expo (since it's using a G4).

I don't agree with this because a lot less has been introduced on stage by Steve Jobs. If it is a G4 "7557" there are quite a few improvements, higher clock speed, 512 on-chip L2 cache, higher L3 cache, and some rumors of a 200Mhz bus. Other things like a new enclosure for the 15", USB 2, FW 800, etc. This would be a Powerbook that Steve would want to show off. Heck if it has a G4 I could see them doing what they did to the Powerbook G3 on the last revision before the Powerbook G4. I don't know if anyone remembers, but they dropped the G3 from the name and it was just called a Powerbook for awhile.

mvc

Sep 14, 2003, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
:rolleyes: This is getting really, REALLY pathetic.

What is MOST interesting about this whole G5/G4 debate is the different emotional tenet of the two sides.

The positives are truly positive, and the negatives are REALLY negative in both their outlook and language.

Its like they have some vested emotional interest in the status quo, or maybe vested financial interest in Motorola. :rolleyes:

Why DO the negatives feel it is necessary to attempt to crush genuine debate with sweeping scornful remarks rather than factual discussion? Is it because they are really hurting inside? :p

They say cynics are just dissappointed idealists. :D

As for G5 powerbooks, anything IS possible; the technical heat/power consumption challenges are NOT insurmountable according to the numbers quoted on this board, Steve usually only shows up to speak for the bigger upgrades, and the long revision delay is difficult to explain as simply a Motorola supply problem.

Apple has both suprised and dissappointed us all before, so we will just have to wait and see which way it falls.

pyrotoaster

Sep 14, 2003, 08:24 PM

Hawthorne

Sep 14, 2003, 08:25 PM

Originally posted by utilizer
...and say the 17 in. gets dual 1.25 G4s and is convertible, i.e., converts to a tablet pc to a laptop and vice versa.
That's the bombshell.

That's not a limb, that's a twig. :D

Doubtful. It'd be cool, the pieces are there with Inkwell and the like, but doubtful.

jouster

Sep 14, 2003, 08:30 PM

Phil: I made the assumption that IBM was initiall slow in producing 970s because, well, SOMETHING held up the PM G5s at first.

ALso, there was a lot of talk about a month ago about Fishkill having initial problems ramping up.

I certainly don't expect that to remain the case, once the initial rush for G5s has levelled out.

Rocketman

Sep 14, 2003, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by crees!
Hey Arn,

Any word on the availability? Whether it would be immediate, 1-2 weeks, or longer?

Pardon me. Isn't it Arn's job to lurk silently? Why call god from his high horse when he already chummed the waters for you?

Merely Rocketman

pyrotoaster

Sep 14, 2003, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
If apple couldn't ship a G5 PowerBook back when kids were going back to school they aren't shipping it NOW!
The Powerbook - and the G5 for that matter - are most definitely not targeted towards the "Back to School" market. That's hardly a reason why Apple wouldn't release a G5 Powerbook.

A Powerbook G5 is possible, but a G4 is more likely.
This is moto's fault. Period. End of story. Enough already.
Well, sure. Just about everything is Motorola's fault. But that doesn't support arguments for or against a G5 Powerbook.
This is getting really, REALLY pathetic.
You know what's really, really pathetic? People who start a post by saying "This is getting really, REALLY pathetic." Let's keep the conversation friendly. :D

Rocketman

Sep 14, 2003, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by jouster

Apple has a choice. It can

(a) Build them soon, using lower specced 970s (say @ 1.2 Ghz) which dissipate as little heat as a MOT G4 or,

(b) Wait for the process shrink and release faster 970s @ 90 nM.

The decision will be made for financial reasons rather than technical ones,

I would speculate. I believe they will wait for option (b)

I would kind of disagree. I feel they will try to have a single motherboard design with legs. One which is updated every 2 months till they feel a release is practical. Who knows how many versions of a PB G5 motherboard there have been. Perhaps tens.

I think they have a motherboard "class" designed for the 90um process G5 (at the lowest end of processor speeds to be released) targeted for the PB G5's. What will be interesting with this is if they come out with a dual G5 Powerbook, which seems likely and practical.

Rocketman

Phil Of Mac

Sep 14, 2003, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by jouster
Phil: I made the assumption that IBM was initiall slow in producing 970s because, well, SOMETHING held up the PM G5s at first.

ALso, there was a lot of talk about a month ago about Fishkill having initial problems ramping up.

I certainly don't expect that to remain the case, once the initial rush for G5s has levelled out.

Maybe. But Fishkill has had plenty of time to run at full capacity. And I think that G5 production (in terms of the full system) was the bottleneck, not 970 production.

tizza

Sep 14, 2003, 08:46 PM

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
:rolleyes: This is getting really, REALLY pathetic. Look. If apple couldn't ship a G5 PowerBook back when kids were going back to school they aren't shipping it NOW! This is moto's fault. Period. End of story. Enough already.
I'm going to be the first person to post that everyone shut up about G5's when the expo announces that everything is still G4. There won’t be any special edition. There won’t be any sneak surprise release. You are going to get speed bumps in the line, with some extra tweaking on the 15” line, and that is it. It ain't going to happen people.
1st quarter 2004 will most likely bring about the announced of the G5 PowerBooks and ship 2nd quarter.

Moto screwed Apple’s plans. No mystery here. Move on Columbo.
I think it's really sad when posts like this are made. One of the reasons I joined mac rumors was to bounce ideas around about things that AREN'T fully known. At the end of the day none of us really know what's happening. If someone just wants the facts and can't handle speculation I would suggest they stick to www.apple.com.

DrGruv1

Sep 14, 2003, 08:47 PM

Unless, they've totally fixed battery and heat issues... and made an upgraded motherboad etc.. too many variables.

quotes:

something like "it'll be a long time before we see a g5 laptop."

apple guru in chicago "yeah it'll happen if you can carry a refrigerator with you"

-best

here's to hope again - isn't this speculation supposed to be FUN!?

jouster

Sep 14, 2003, 08:47 PM

Well, only a few hours til we get a much better idea.

Rocketman, I'd love it if they brought out a dual G% PB, as would many others I'm sure, but that's a brave prediction!

Has there EVER been a dual proc laptop?

ethernet76

Sep 14, 2003, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by hmmm
3 upgrades, 3 models, face it, it's going to be throughout the whole ranger, I mean, why buy a 12" PB when you can get a 900 G3 ibook for so much less with just as much performance (check out the benchmarks)
It's because of the Altivec engine. the iBook can run things like soundtrack or other apps that utilize the g4 architecture.

ethernet76

Sep 14, 2003, 08:52 PM

It's a great time to be a student though, new powerbooks, and the new ipods still with the discount. I'm so happy I waited. (buy a apple laptop get 200 off the purchase of an ipod and 100 off an apple printer thru september 27)

Beck446

Sep 14, 2003, 08:58 PM

Could someone clarify when exactly the keynote starts? I assume it will be around 4AM Eastern Time early on Tuesday morning. That would mean it's around 32 hours away.

PB

Phil Of Mac

Sep 14, 2003, 09:00 PM

Originally posted by jouster
Well, only a few hours til we get a much better idea.

Rocketman, I'd love it if they brought out a dual G% PB, as would many others I'm sure, but that's a brave prediction!

Has there EVER been a dual proc laptop?

"Introducing, the world's first dual processor laptop: The new PowerBook G4".

Freg3000

Sep 14, 2003, 09:06 PM

Originally posted by tizza
I think it's really sad when posts like this are made. One of the reasons I joined mac rumors was to bounce ideas around about things that AREN'T fully known. At the end of the day none of us really know what's happening. If someone just wants the facts and can't handle speculation I would suggest they stick to www.apple.com.

I absolutely agree. It is so strange how emotional people are getting. The Pro G5 PB people are giving their opinion, whether it comes from logical conclusions or blind hopes. However, the Pro G4 PB people almost act fascist in their attempts to squash the opposing idea. I don't get it. I haven't seen anyone predicting a G5 PowerBook be so vicious. Come 'on. No one knows. No matter how right you think you are, none of us will know until Tuesday in the wee hours of the morning (for the US at least).

So until then, let everyone say what they believe. I might expect such a heated and aggressive argument in a thread in the Political/War forum, but not here. We are actually having a great exchange of ideas and opinions.

Please, keep it civil. :)

skychum

Sep 14, 2003, 09:07 PM

Originally posted by ethernet76
It's a great time to be a student though, new powerbooks, and the new ipods still with the discount. I'm so happy I waited. (buy a apple laptop get 200 off the purchase of an ipod and 100 off an apple printer thru september 27)

Be careful waiting. The fine print in this coupon (http://a992.g.akamai.net/7/992/51/0234de97c4c7da/www.apple.com/education/promos/bts/pdf/EverythingYouNeed.pdf) says that you must "Order and take possession of qualifying products from June 29, 2003, through September 27, 2003." I don't know if this means that you need to physically have the stuff in your hands by the rebate deadline, or that you need to have mailed the rebate form in by the deadline, or simply ordered all the stuff by the deadline, but if it's one of the first 2, all the orders for new 'books will most likely slow your order.

MattG

Sep 14, 2003, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
"Introducing, the world's first dual processor laptop: The new PowerBook G4". That would rock...G5 or not, a dual processor notebook would be pretty incredible.

aras

Sep 14, 2003, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by BlueDjinn
Everyone else is chiming in, so here's my predictions:

Current 12" PB Combo: Price Drop Only ($1,599 -> $1,499)

Current 12" PB SuperDrive: Price Drop Only ($1,799 -> $1,699)

New 15.4" PB SuperDrive: $1,999
1.0 GHz G4 AlBook (side ports)
Backlighting, FW800, AirportExtreme (card included), Bluetooth (card included)
256 MB DDR-PC2700

New 17" PB ComboDrive: $2,499
1.0 GHz G4
FW800, AirportExtreme (card included), Bluetooth (card included)
256 MB DDR-PC2700

New 17" PB SuperDrive: $2,999
1.33 GHz G4
FW800, AirportExtreme (card included), Bluetooth (card included)
512 MB DDR-PC2700

(basically, instead of 15" Combo/15" Super/17" Super, they'd go to 15" Super/17" Combo/17" Super)

I like these predictions - Only the 15" powerbook will always be available in the fastest speed. It was mentioned before usually the only difference between 15" and 17" is going to be the monitor size. Then again maybe the 17" will be the first dual processor powerbook. But if apple were really working at it they might be able to stick 2 in a 15".

can't wait! Credit card in hand - this old lombard is on its deathbed..... :)

unionjack

Sep 14, 2003, 09:11 PM

I want to see a 12" PoweBook with a 1ghz processor and the capacity for 1ghz RAM. Is this even physically possible, or will I have to go the 15" route for a gig of RAM?

MattG

Sep 14, 2003, 09:21 PM

Originally posted by unionjack
I want to see a 12" PoweBook with a 1ghz processor and the capacity for 1ghz RAM. Is this even physically possible, or will I have to go the 15" route for a gig of RAM? I'm sure it's possible, they just haven't made one that can do that yet. I don't see why they couldn't use the type of RAM slots that they use in the 15", with the two sticks of memory right on top of each other. I'm sure they could fit it in there somehow...

Roller

Sep 14, 2003, 09:21 PM

Originally posted by Beck446
Could someone clarify when exactly the keynote starts? I assume it will be around 4AM Eastern Time early on Tuesday morning. That would mean it's around 32 hours away.

PB

The slot is supposed to begin at 9 AM Paris time, which is 3 AM EDT (12 AM PDT) - the times I've seen quoted here have been standard, but we're still on Daylight Savings Time.

Note that the actual keynote may start sometime after this.

Hemingray

Sep 14, 2003, 09:21 PM

Okay, you got it. By popular demand, I've made a mockup of what the Dual G5 PowerBooks will look like for all those of you who "can't wait." (Forgive me if this has already been done):

Rocketman

Sep 14, 2003, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by mvc
What is MOST interesting about this whole G5/G4 debate is the different emotional tenet of the two sides.

The positives are truly positive, and the negatives are REALLY negative in both their outlook and language.

Its like they have some vested emotional interest in the status quo, or maybe vested financial interest in Motorola. :rolleyes:

Why DO the negatives feel it is necessary to attempt to crush genuine debate with sweeping scornful remarks rather than factual discussion? Is it because they are really hurting inside? :p

They say cynics are just dissappointed idealists. :D

As for G5 powerbooks, anything IS possible; the technical heat/power consumption challenges are NOT insurmountable according to the numbers quoted on this board, Steve usually only shows up to speak for the bigger upgrades, and the long revision delay is difficult to explain as simply a Motorola supply problem.

Apple has both suprised and dissappointed us all before, so we will just have to wait and see which way it falls.

Snip nothing.

mvc you rock.

I resemble, "cynics are just dissappointed idealists".

Rocketman

snofseth

Sep 14, 2003, 09:25 PM

Is this the most post ever over 200 something and sure to be even more by thursday. The real question is how many diffent people have made a post if its like 20 total that would be sad some of you must have too much time on your hands

Rocketman

Sep 14, 2003, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by tizza
I think it's really sad when posts like this are made. One of the reasons I joined mac rumors was to bounce ideas around about things that AREN'T fully known. At the end of the day none of us really know what's happening. If someone just wants the facts and can't handle speculation I would suggest they stick to www.apple.com.

He was a negative ninnie, BUT you have to admit, and Steve agrees, that available tech has been well under either promised or expected from Moto. Apple is hoping IBM stays with their track record, and frankly I expect they will. They spend upwards of 10x what Apple does on R&D, Moto being a small fraction of Apple.

The fact is, negative ninnies have been RIGHT for the past 8-10 years.

God bless IBM for changing that. This PBG4 upgrade is the last nail in the Moto coffin and god bless Apple for leaving their sorry ass in the dust.

Pardon my French :)

Rocketman

Instant BUYER of PBG5's (quantity) at any speed.

jouster

Sep 14, 2003, 09:36 PM

Well, I'm not sure if the G4 "supporters" are fascist. That seems a little harsh. I would guess that many (and I count myself among them) would say they don't believe there will be a PB G5 yet, but would be delighted to be proved wrong.

Freg3000

Sep 14, 2003, 09:38 PM

Originally posted by snofseth
Is this the most post ever over 200 something and sure to be even more by thursday. The real question is how many diffent people have made a post if its like 20 total that would be sad some of you must have too much time on your hands

I am not totally understanding what you are trying to say, but I think some of us have posted like 20 times is because we really want new PowerBooks.

Which reminds me, I haven't given my PowerBook predictions. (Like you really want to hear another random person's thoughts) :)

12" 1 Ghz, Combo Drive, Bus 133 Mhz, Max 768 MB DDR 266 Ram, 512 L2 Cache, no L3, same IO.

15" 1.3 Ghz, Superdrive (BTO Combo), 166 Mhz, Max 1 GB DDR 333 Ram, 512 L2, 1 Mb L3, FW 800, AE (not built in), BT, Backlit keyboard, AL enclosure.

17" 1.3 Ghz, Same specs as today.

The only thing that gives me pause, is that if Apple now says 8 GBs of RAM is possible in the G5 (using 1 GB DIMMs) why can't 2 be in the 15" and 17" models? But, I'll stick with what I have now. :)

Originally posted by jouster
Well, I'm not sure if the G4 "supporters" are fascist. That seems a little harsh. I would guess that many (and I count myself among them) would say they don't believe there will be a PB G5 yet, but would be delighted to be proved wrong.

Yes, fascist is a very strong word. I mean something to a lesser degree. Hopefully the point I was making is clear. Not fascist, but outrageously over the top.

cesar

Sep 14, 2003, 09:38 PM

Dual 1.42GHz G4 PowerBooks?

Photorun

Sep 14, 2003, 09:38 PM

I was going to ask what the longest thread was in the forums. Any idea?

And to clear this up as I guess one of the naysayer G5 camp... it's not that I, or anyone who's pretty confident (and I'd bet money on it) that the G5 won't be showing up this fall, WOULDN'T LIKE the G5 to show up. I think that's safe to say, no trolls here.

I'd love a G5, hell at those price points I'd be ignoring some debts and buying one myself, a G5 1.2-??? GHz 15 inch... sign me up! Even if I have to do the ridiculous wait the G5 PMacs are doing (which you realize would mean they'd ship around the first of the year... eeek!). All evidence points contrary though, and it's just silly to see some with this whole G5 thing hyping others to think G5s will be some type of reality (bzzt wrong!) and through this we'll have people getting mad at Apple for something Apple hadn't any intention on coming out with (mark Apple's own words for crying out loud). So when all you G5 hopefuls get Tuesday's news about the G4 Powerbooks, don't get mad at Apple, get mad at your own dang selves for believing in something you've been told repeatedly just ain't happening yet.

/discussion