PowerBook G5 with Liquid Cooling

[MacRumors]

AppleInsider reports (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=167) that Apple engineers, faced with the cooling obstacles of the G5 processor in the Powerbook, are testing liquid cooled systems for the portables.

While this might allow Apple to release a G5-powered PowerBook earlier, it would increase cost and size requirements, possibly limiting the technology to the 17" PowerBook to start.

[XnavxeMiyyep]

Well, I'm not sure if it's good or bad news, but the Powerbooks are going to have to get a bit thicker eventually, or they won't be expandable enough.

[Digidesign]

I'd rather have it thicker and cooler/quieter, then thin and hot/noisy (PB 550/667's loud fans come to mind).

[Powerbook G5]

I've heard some interesting ideas for G5 PowerBooks, but the more I hear, the happier I am for having just buying a G4 now since any of these extreme tech ideas would be a real pain in the ass to deal with as a Rev. A model with almost guaranteed problems with so much new technology. If I were to have waiting for a second rev PowerBook G5, I'd be waiting for a good year or two.

[gopher]

Not necessarily. You can add quite a few PCI ports to a Powerbook now:

http://www.magma.com/ has an incredible solution to add a PCI chasis to a Powerbook.

[sanaco]

now if we could only use the hydrogen from water as power
that would very "cool"ing

[Freg3000]

I can't imagine how this could be done. But then again, I am not an Apple engineer. Is it as "simple" as it sounds? Just using a liquid to physically cool the processor, rather than blowing air on it?

[Steamboatwillie]

Really I would think that they should focus on creating less heat from the cpu. Fancy cooling devices only *move* the heat from the cpu to somewhere else. That's fine in a desktop where blowing the heat out into the room is acceptable. In a laptop it's totally different. That heat has to go somewhere, hence the modern lap warmer that happens to do computing as well! Monkeying with water cooling, in my opinion, is a waste of time and money for laptops.

[CMillerERAU]

I wonder if they'd use water or something that is more cooling like freon, then again I'd much rather have a powerbook leak water on me than freon.

[vitruvius]

mmm... so now PowerBooks will be like cars, they need fuel (cells) to run, and change the coolant so it dont get too hot... so whats next? oil change?:rolleyes:

ahh i cant wait....:D

[3G4N]

this seems like it would likely increase the weight of the laptop too. (L)uugh.

[dongmin]

Originally posted by Steamboatwillie
Really I would think that they should focus on creating less heat from the cpu. Fancy cooling devices only *move* the heat from the cpu to somewhere else. That's fine in a desktop where blowing the heat out into the room is acceptable. In a laptop it's totally different. That heat has to go somewhere, hence the modern lap warmer that happens to do computing as well! Monkeying with water cooling, in my opinion, is a waste of time and money for laptops.

I'm sure they're considering all the options. Hopefully the new die-shrunk 970 will be cool enough for the PowerBooks. But who knows, even a die-shrunk 970 plus whatever new architecture they're putting in is still too hot.

I'd say options like liquid cooling represent worst case scenarios.

[gothamac]

This company is selling what they call the "worlds first personal Supercomputer" and they have an interesting cooling system.


"Up to -35'C. That's how cool the CPU gets. That's how hot this system is. The most spectacular cooling system ever built using vapor compression cycle, is capable of removing CPU's heat over 50 times more efficiently than any air cooling solution. The enclosure itself, houses multiple air-flow thermal zones design with independent fans for all major temperature generating components."

Take a look at the tiny graphs showing it kicking the G5's butt.

http://www.go-l.com/desktops/machl35/features/index.htm

At the bottom of the page there's a link to the online store, It doesn't work on the top bar. Check out thoses prices.

[Big Lar]

These guys are already using a liquid heat sink for the CPU: http://www.go-l.com/laptops/hollywood/features/index.htm

Liquid cooling is better for concentrating cooling in tight spaces. But you complicate the system because you have to move the hot material to another location and then blow air over it. The heat doesn't accumulate in the liquid.

AS for getting hydrogen out of water, it takes more energy to get the hydrogen out of water than you recover when you run it through a fuel cell, so that will never work. That's basic chemistry and physics.

[3-22]

I forgot who (or where), but someone was working on a cooling system that transfered heat to the back of the screen. This gave you a large cooling area, plus no hot lap.

[JoeRadar]

It is about time someone mentioned this in a rumor column. I have been aware of the more exotic cooling mechanisms in the PC world, and I am surprised it took this long for the subject to make it into the G5 PB threads.

While feasible, I still think Apple should wait on a G5 notebook for several reasons including:

(1) catch up with current orders for G5 PowerMacs;

(2) release a G5 Xserve;

(3) wait for 90 nm version of 970;

(4) wait for the POWER5 derived chip which was designed to support smaller/cooler systems.

[mainstreetmark]

Freon, itself, isn't really cold. It just happens to be a liquid/gas that can be cheaply compressed (which releases heat) and expanded (which soaks up heat). Having a compressor and coils in a notebook seems impracticle.

Liquid cooling, in this case, is just using the inherent heat capacity of the coolant to carry the heat away. The heat moves from the hot thing (the chip) to the coolant, where it's carried away and cooled off at a more leasurely pace, or an accelerated pace, such as a car radiator.

Air cooling works just the same way, but it has a far less heat capacity and a much slower heat transfer (hense, tons of fins - more surface area = more 'paths' for the heat to move). As pointed out, you can just jet the air out the back and be done with it.

If they use liquid cooling they'd need some sort of radiator to get rid of the heat (which, ironically, will almost certainly be air cooled anyways). The question is, where? I've always thought that the back of the laptop lid has a ton of unused surface area. They could pump liquid up into the lid where it would have plenty of time and space to cool down. Who cares if you have a warm lid.

But, unfortunatly, to pump a liquid straight up in the air 12 inches would require a pretty beefy little pump, so we may not see that method. Of course, they could move the entire processor up there and give it it's own environment. Situated vertically, the processor could heat up the coolant which would naturally rise, lava-lamp style. Maybe a small pump to assist the convection currents. The keyboard part of the laptop would then contain only the much cooler stuff like the drive. Might even make room for a PCI slot. :) Or, a 5.25" floppy drive.

Hmm - i should get back to work.

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by gothamac
Take a look at the tiny graphs showing it kicking the G5's butt.

http://www.go-l.com/desktops/machl35/features/index.htm


where'd they get a single 2.0 ghz g5?

[jayscheuerle]

Seems like an excellent way to limit battery time to around 15 minutes.

You think moving air taxes batteries?

I'm thinking there's smarter solutions than this...

[Big Lar]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gothamac
[B]This company is selling what they call the "worlds first personal Supercomputer" and they have an interesting cooling system.


"Up to -35'C. That's how cool the CPU gets. That's how hot this system is. The most spectacular cooling system ever built using vapor compression cycle, is capable of removing CPU's heat over 50 times more efficiently than any air cooling solution.


Hmm, an overclocked P4 with an air conditioning system on it. Works like this" compress the gas, it gets hot, then cool it, then expand it, it gets cold. Run this cold gas over the processor. Should work just fine. I expect that it's noisy.

[blogo]

Originally posted by gothamac
This company is selling what they call the "worlds first personal Supercomputer" and they have an interesting cooling system.


"Up to -35'C. That's how cool the CPU gets. That's how hot this system is. The most spectacular cooling system ever built using vapor compression cycle, is capable of removing CPU's heat over 50 times more efficiently than any air cooling solution. The enclosure itself, houses multiple air-flow thermal zones design with independent fans for all major temperature generating components."

Take a look at the tiny graphs showing it kicking the G5's butt.

http://www.go-l.com/desktops/machl35/features/index.htm

At the bottom of the page there's a link to the online store, It doesn't work on the top bar. Check out thoses prices.

Then again, just the case costs like 600$

[jer2665]

Originally posted by Freg3000
I can't imagine how this could be done. But then again, I am not an Apple engineer. Is it as "simple" as it sounds? Just using a liquid to physically cool the processor, rather than blowing air on it?


the screensavers was talking about this one day, for a pc, it tells you the basic idea

http://www.techtv.com/screensavers/howto/story/0,24330,3517323,00.html

[iwantanewmac]

Originally posted by gopher
Not necessarily. You can add quite a few PCI ports to a Powerbook now:

http://www.magma.com/ has an incredible solution to add a PCI chasis to a Powerbook.

Did you look at the prices as well? :)

[gothamac]

"where'd they get a single 2.0 ghz g5?"

I don't see the word single?

This company has copied the Apple store. What's with the first "get yours free" box. The ball looks like idisk.

[Gymnut]

Originally posted by gothamac
This company is selling what they call the "worlds first personal Supercomputer" and they have an interesting cooling system.


"Up to -35'C. That's how cool the CPU gets. That's how hot this system is. The most spectacular cooling system ever built using vapor compression cycle, is capable of removing CPU's heat over 50 times more efficiently than any air cooling solution. The enclosure itself, houses multiple air-flow thermal zones design with independent fans for all major temperature generating components."

Take a look at the tiny graphs showing it kicking the G5's butt.

http://www.go-l.com/desktops/machl35/features/index.htm

At the bottom of the page there's a link to the online store, It doesn't work on the top bar. Check out thoses prices.

Isn't this the same site where the panoramic monitors were met with skepticism?

[Snowy_River]

Originally posted by CMillerERAU
I wonder if they'd use water or something that is more cooling like freon, then again I'd much rather have a powerbook leak water on me than freon.

More likely they'd use an oil that has a high heat capacity. This would be similar to some of the older supercomputer cooling systems, where the entire circuit boards were immersed in oil. That might make the tinkerers among us think twice about taking apart a PowerBook...

[myrdred23]

Originally posted by gothamac
This company is selling what they call the "worlds first personal Supercomputer" and they have an interesting cooling system.


"Up to -35'C. That's how cool the CPU gets. That's how hot this system is. The most spectacular cooling system ever built using vapor compression cycle, is capable of removing CPU's heat over 50 times more efficiently than any air cooling solution. The enclosure itself, houses multiple air-flow thermal zones design with independent fans for all major temperature generating components."

Take a look at the tiny graphs showing it kicking the G5's butt.

http://www.go-l.com/desktops/machl35/features/index.htm

At the bottom of the page there's a link to the online store, It doesn't work on the top bar. Check out thoses prices.


Hmm, trully an interesting machine. However, theres a few things I've noted, looking at that page.

First of all, the page layout is pretty much almost identical to Apple's, with the system spec charts and the buttons, layout, everything, set up the same way as Apple's website.

Another, is the benchmarks. Please, take these with a grain of salt. The G5 SPEC benchmarks are the ones Apple used at WWDC, that were recorded with the very inefficient GCC, whereas all the other ones are done w/ Intel's uber-P4-compiler. I'm sure if IBM's new compiler was used, the results would be drastically different (that compiler showed improvements of up to 2-2.5x on the same code).

Having said that, this system still looks hot. It is definetily the most "Pro" windows system I've seen, and some of the things (OS stored in RAM, not HD space, for really fast loading) are revolutionary (to a certain extent). It seems that this machine is aiming at the same market as the high-end G5, as it includes the same multitude of ports that the PowerMac has (even FW800), and some other cool features. Heh, I'd love to play around with this machine, to see how it really lives up to the hype the site presents.

Having said that, there are some pretty obvious disadvantages to this system. First is the OS, it seems that it comes with WinXP in its read-only RAM, and I don't think you are even able to change this to Linux, while keeping the system's fast RAM-loading of the OS. Another is the 32-bitness of the Pentium. In a few years, it will be obsolete. Also, I'd be interesting to know how loud this thing gets. Oh, and obviously, the price makes the G5 look like dollar-store material. Heh.

-Myrd

[Snowy_River]

Originally posted by Big Lar
AS for getting hydrogen out of water, it takes more energy to get the hydrogen out of water than you recover when you run it through a fuel cell, so that will never work. That's basic chemistry and physics.

While strictly speaking that's true, the idea of using a fuel cell to power a computer is still an attractive one. Instead of a battery, you'd have a fuel cell with a hydrogen tank. In order to recharge the "battery" you'd do something like plug it into a recharger that has a water tank, from which it would extract the hydrogen needed to fill up the "battery"'s tank.

Fuel cells are highly efficient, in comparison to most other means of extracting energy from the 2H+O => H2O reaction. If memory serves, current prototype fuel cells are in the range of 80-90% efficient (as compared with 50-60% efficiency for gas turbines).

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by myrdred23
Having said that, this system still looks hot. It is definetily the most "Pro" windows system I've seen, and some of the things (OS stored in RAM, not HD space, for really fast loading) are revolutionary (to a certain extent). It seems that this machine is aiming at the same market as the high-end G5, as it includes the same multitude of ports that the PowerMac has (even FW800), and some other cool features. Heh, I'd love to play around with this machine, to see how it really lives up to the hype the site presents.



The other minor downside is that you can't buy one. Did anybody try clicking on one of the payment links?

Hot enough to be a vapor?

[MrMacMan]

Originally posted by Freg3000
I can't imagine how this could be done. But then again, I am not an Apple engineer. Is it as "simple" as it sounds? Just using a liquid to physically cool the processor, rather than blowing air on it?

Indeed, taking the heat to go into the water and not overheating.


There are obstacles...

Currently Water Cooling is used for Overclockers and People who hate to hear any trace of a fan.



Back the the absurd:

I remember when Tom's Overclocked a P4 To 3.6 GHZ and had it like -70 + Degrees Celsius... insane...


:o

[beefcake]

As has already been pointed out, a water cooled notebook would either be very heavy or have very poor battery life. Pumping the water through the monitor just doesn't seem like an option. Regardless of volume, pumping water to a height of even 10 inches would take enough energy to kill your battery. I'm not sure what the Apple engineers have up their sleave, but I can't see how an efficient water-cooled notebook could be feasible. Water adds weight, and unless Apple plans to defy the laws of physics, the heat would still end up on your lap.

On another note, what is all this http://www.go-l.com/ stuff I've seen today. Is it just a spoof or are these guys for real? The specs, though insane for a laptop, don't even seem possible at the time (128-bit P4?)

[Richter]

Originally posted by vitruvius
mmm... so now PowerBooks will be like cars, they need fuel (cells) to run, and change the coolant so it dont get too hot... so whats next? oil change?:rolleyes:

ahh i cant wait....:D I'l like to see LCD screen wipers next

=P

[Stelliform]

I definitely would wait until Rev. B on any radical change like liquid cooling...

[gothamac]

"It is also the first commercially available personal computer with an Accelerated* Front Side Bus speed of 933Mhz "

G5 has 1 ghz.

The way they copied the Apple store is almost creepy. I wouldn't trust this place.
I think it is interesting though to see the kind of prices for PC's when they're
comparable to Macs pro line. Windows people like to campare prices with Walmart machines, the never mention these systems.

[eric67]

the title means it all
Motorola to sell its PowerPC division to Tundra SemiConductors
www.hardmac.com

that's maybe why Apple is quickly advancing on a working prototype with a G5 processor... because it might be not so much G4 ahead... the rumored altivec-G3 might indeed be the solution for the iBook, but for the PowerBook...

[altglbrs]

Originally posted by beefcake
Regardless of volume, pumping water to a height of even 10 inches would take enough energy to kill your battery.

If you have a closed, sealed system, you aren't lifting the water.... just circulating it.

[AVON]

This Go-L.com company is not real.
A bunch of people at my university have been researching the company today. Everyone was really interested in the products, but it's not real.

Link (http://thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=132020)

Oh, and liquid cooled laptops do exist:
Hitachi will soon release a water-cooled notebook computer.

"The Japanese company said it has come up with a viable water-cooled prototype that essentially works like a radiator. The main advantage of the water-cooled notebook, according to Hitachi, is that its chips can run at higher clock speeds without the danger of overheating."

Using a stainless-steel tube of water-based liquid to cool down its Pentium 4 processor, heat is dissipated from the back of the LCD display.

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by gothamac
"where'd they get a single 2.0 ghz g5?"

I don't see the word single?

This company has copied the Apple store. What's with the first "get yours free" box. The ball looks like idisk.

i see it. at least twice.

and i quote

The Pentium 4 HT 3.5GHz has a floating-point performance 1.7_times faster than an AMD_Athlon 3200+ and over 1.8 times faster than a single-processor Power Mac G5 2.0GHz CPU.

The Pentium 4 HT_3.5GHz's Integer Performance is equally impressive about
45% times faster than an_AMD 3200+ and almost 85% times faster than a single-processor Power Mac G5 2.0GHz.

taken from this page:

http://www.go-l.com/desktops/machl35/processor/index.htm

between the performance graphs.

[supercres]

Originally posted by Powerbook G5
I've heard some interesting ideas for G5 PowerBooks, but the more I hear, the happier I am for having just buying a G4 now...

True that.

[SiliconAddict]

Cost is not an issue*
I want my G5 NOW. Strap a water cooler on my back if necessary but I an American. I want my instant gratification NOW! NOW NOW NOW! ;)







*Please note that this applies to this specific poster and individual acceptable purchase prices may very.

[rjstanford]

Originally posted by Macrumors
AppleInsider reports (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=167) that Apple engineers, faced with the cooling obstacles of the G5 processor in the Powerbook, are testing liquid cooled systems for the portables. And this is a page one story why, exactly? I mean, its not as if the theorized 1.2ghz G5 puts out more heat than the old G4 - and even the bigger G5 is cooler than many of the el-cheapo non-centrino intel laptops, which can be cooled pretty well with some fairly quiet fans (think thinkpad)... Is Apple looking at water cooling? Probably. They are a large laptop manufacturer, after all. Seriously intending to use it soon? Probably not. There just isn't much of a need to justify that sort of early adoption - at least, not that I can see.

-Richard

[zapp]

Here is how to get rid of a lot of heat and make power at the same time, Thermocouples. If you put a thermocouple on each piece of heat producing hardware including the hard drive, then channel the power it creates back into the batery you accomplish two things, get rid of the heat, extend battery life. A thermocouple take the difference in heat between two metals and creates electric current. I am sure it has been thought of, but it would be a better solution than liquid cooling. And there is no waste heat you need to get rid of. Now there are probably a thousand reasons why it wouldn't be feasible, but Galileo that just crashed into Jupiter has been using that very same source of power for the last 14 years or so, of course the heat was generated from the slow decay of radioactive material. Have fun with it, cause I didn't patent it.



Think I will go for a ride now.

[mainstreetmark]

Thermocouples require a LOT of heat. Gallileo wasn't heated by some CPU, they had some pretty nasty stuff in there (plutonium?)

Let me do a quick google, and see what i can find on them...
http://www.picotech.com/applications/thermocouple.html

That looks good - 300C => 12mV

[Steven1621]

i would say that i would settle for the extra size, weight, can cost if i could have the g5 in a portable.

[PHGN]

Speaking as an engineering student:

Liquid cooling has big advantages because, for a number of reasons (e.g. higher density, higher specific heat capacity, ease of efficient pumping, better conduction at the interface etc.), it is capable of a higher 'power' heat transfer -- ie more heat energy in a given period of time.

However all that heat still has to go somewhere, so the minimum temperature that can be achieved is no lower than the temp of the coolant as it enters the heat sink arrangement.

Normally a liquid cooled system will run cooler than an air cooed system for two reasons:

To transfer heat to the air fast enough requires a steep thermal gradient from the hot body to the cold body. Water conducts heat better than air so the gradient need not be as steep; the hot body will heat up until the gradient is steep enough to remove heat as fast as it is generated.

Liquid cooled systems can very easily take the heat from a small area and transfer it to a larger one, allowing a faster transfer of heat out to the air. That’s the function of the finned heat sink; take the heat from the die and spread it out so there is more contact with the air for faster cooling.

Problems I can foresee:
Leaks
Compounded by my ability to drop laptops down flights of stairs.

Bear in mind that eventually the heat ends up somewhere outside the laptop, almost certainly the air, so you still need an air-cooled part of the cooling system. (Thus a water cooled system can never go below air temp unless...

Refrigerated cooling systems are a different matter. Still need to output the heat somewhere and need more power as well. And generate much heat themselves.

On a side note, the nuclear reactors in submarines are mostly water-cooled. On an Ohio Class SSBN they don't use pumps. They rely on convection alone to move the coolant. The pumps are one of the main sources of noise on a nuclear sub. Rumour has it that the Ohio class boats are on average quieter than the equivalent volume of open sea water.

Oh and think of the impact on battery life of convection cooled system!

[FlamDrag]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
Seems like an excellent way to limit battery time to around 15 minutes.

<chuckle> so true.

This seems like - something that they just cooked up in their little brains and published.

For fun, let's pretend that it's true. Just because Apple is looking into it, doesn't mean that it's going into the first, second or third G5 Powerbook revision. Hell, maybe they have some sort of 3.5Ghz G5 mobile prototype that doubles as a Ronco Rotisserie oven. Maybe THAT is what they're trying to cool via liquid cooling. What I'm trying to say is that even if it's true, it's more likely IMHO that this is a long-term option.

<off topic>
If they decide to go with it, they should put little hydroelectric plants in there and harvest the energy of the moving water.

[dongmin]

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
I want my G5 NOW. Strap a water cooler on my back if necessary but I an American. I want my instant gratification NOW! NOW NOW NOW! ;)

well if you want it this bad, you can always strap on a G5 Power Mac and generator on your back.

[Rocketman]

Originally posted by Macrumors
AppleInsider reports (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=167) that Apple engineers, faced with the cooling obstacles of the G5 processor in the Powerbook, are testing liquid cooled systems for the portables.

While this might allow Apple to release a G5-powered PowerBook earlier, it would increase cost and size requirements, possibly limiting the technology to the 17" PowerBook to start.

Let's state the obvious. This would allow max speed chips and dualies in powerbooks on introduction. No half-measures.

Rocketman

[macphoria]

I'm glad they are working on solutions. I just hope this does not drive up the price.

[cevin]

Perhaps Apple should take a look at this technology.

http://science.slashdot.org/science/03/09/23/120234.shtml?tid=134

[Code101]

Any processor that has to be cooled this way is not worth having in a notebook! I'll wait for the .09 process and then it may be room temp cooled. If not, I still won't buy it!

Intel is already at .09 with Prescott and Nocona!

I don't like this. IBM has done good but not good enough. Must move faster with the .09 process.

[Code101]

Originally posted by gothamac
"It is also the first commercially available personal computer with an Accelerated* Front Side Bus speed of 933Mhz "

G5 has 1 ghz.



Only 800MHz to the RAM! the speed between the processor and memory controller could be 5GHz for all I care. The fact is that form the memory controller to the RAM, it's only 800MHz. No different than Intel.

Apple tries to make the 970 sound like it's the first of everything commercially. Just like the first 64bit desktop line. The AMD Opteron was out before the 970. It's a 64 bit processor running on only the 32bit side of the core because there isn't a release of Windows XP 64 bit addition for AMD yet. Just like Jaguar and Panther is not 64bit. The G5 being able to run 64 bit is limited to the OS and applications that are not yet 64bit. Just like Opteron.

[Plutoniq]

Well, Apple has been using Heat-Pipe technology in various Powerbook heatsinks for some time. I know the original "Kanga" G3 (250mhz G3) had to use it (I think it was the first implemented with it), and I know my current Pismo uses heat-pipe heatsink.

Good thing 'bout heat-pipes is they use no energy, it's a passive process which uses heat to cycle water (wick like system). You can essentially contort heat-pipes to any shape, so it's a good way of transporting heat from point A to B.

I'm sure modern G4 books use 'em.

p'z

[backdraft]

http://www.go-l.com/desktops/machl38/features/index.htm

Seems pretty BOGUS! FireWire 800 on a PC, since when did Apple allow this? A 3.5ghz P4 where? when?

"Based on Microsoft's Professional NT Technologies, Windows XP Professional is the world's most widely used, stable, and versatile Operating System. And with thousands of additional proprietary enhancements and performing improving adjustments, to uniquely and exclusively match the new Mach 3.5 Personal SuperComputer with Microsoft’s Operating System, get ready for a Windows experience and enhanced productivity, taken to radically new extreme levels, for high-end enterprise and professional use, to ultimate gaming quests, Internet surfing and content creation and unlimited personal applications"

This is a load of crap.

http://www.go-l.com/winxp4l/winxp4l/index.htm

More crap.

http://www.go-l.com/technology/gm/index.html

Huh?

I wonder how Apple would respond.

-backdraft

P.S. Feel free to e-mail Apple. I see a lawsuit coming up. *cough* website *cough*

[Plutoniq]

Originally posted by backdraft
http://www.go-l.com/desktops/machl38/features/index.htm

Seems pretty BOGUS! FireWire 800 on a PC, since when did Apple allow this? A 3.5ghz P4 where? when?


Apple doesn't own Firewire technology anymore than Microsoft owns USB 1.1/2.0

They probably own the "Firewire" label (name itself), but the technology is licensed from a third-party developer.

Third-Party Firewire 400 and 800 has been available on PCI & Cardbus for both PC's and Macs for a while now, well firewire 800 only more recentley.

So, get your facts right before blurting out stupid accusations.

p'z

[macphoria]

http://www.go-l.com/desktops/machl38/features/index.htm

Seems pretty BOGUS! FireWire 800 on a PC, since when did Apple allow this? A 3.5ghz P4 where? when?

"Based on Microsoft's Professional NT Technologies, Windows XP Professional is the world's most widely used, stable, and versatile Operating System. And with thousands of additional proprietary enhancements and performing improving adjustments, to uniquely and exclusively match the new Mach 3.5 Personal SuperComputer with Microsoft’s Operating System, get ready for a Windows experience and enhanced productivity, taken to radically new extreme levels, for high-end enterprise and professional use, to ultimate gaming quests, Internet surfing and content creation and unlimited personal applications"

This is a load of crap.

http://www.go-l.com/winxp4l/winxp4l/index.htm

More crap.

http://www.go-l.com/technology/gm/index.html

Huh?

I wonder how Apple would respond.

-backdraft

P.S. Feel free to e-mail Apple. I see a lawsuit coming up. *cough* website *cough*
Their site sure looks like a rip off of Apple's site.

The machines they have on that site are monsters. Pretty darn expensive too.

I like their monitors though.

[backdraft]

Originally posted by Plutoniq
Apple doesn't own Firewire technology anymore than Microsoft owns USB 1.1/2.0

They probably own the "Firewire" label (name itself), but the technology is licensed from a third-party developer.

Third-Party Firewire 400 and 800 has been available on PCI & Cardbus for both PC's and Macs for a while now, well firewire 800 only more recentley.

So, get your facts right before blurting out stupid accusations.

p'z

Its bogus: http://www.spymac.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=41369&postid=614539#post614539

[Apple //e]

didnt toshiba make a sub 1" watercooled notebook back in 2000? i think some porteges still have watercooling.

[macolicous]

Hello I just bought a 15in AlPb and I was wondering if anyone could tell me the best lock/strongest. I know Apple suggests the Kensington but I was wondering if there was anything stronger or more tamper proof. Thanks in advance.

[panphage]

Originally posted by Code101
Any processor that has to be cooled this way is not worth having in a notebook! I'll wait for the .09 process and then it may be room temp cooled. If not, I still won't buy it!

Intel is already at .09 with Prescott and Nocona!

I don't like this. IBM has done good but not good enough. Must move faster with the .09 process.

I'm pretty sure Intel isn't shipping any .09 chips yet. Almost positive. Going to a smaller process isn't any guarantee of a cooler chip, there's less surface area to cool, that's one thing that makes cooling harder.

Another person with his Opteron comments. Sigh. I love AMD but there is one tiny little obscure company that MAY have shipped some Opteron boxes meant for workstation use rather than as a server. Let's just let Apple have this, the Itanium was meant as a server chip and no one is selling them, the Opteron is an enterprise-level chip as well. When the Athlon64 is shipping, then you can compare an AMD chip in the same market as the G5. But the Opteron is just not part of that market, no matter what one obscure company decides to do with it. The Opteron competes with the POWER4, not it's kid brother 970.

[lduncan]

Originally posted by Plutoniq
Well, Apple has been using Heat-Pipe technology in various Powerbook heatsinks for some time. I know the original "Kanga" G3 (250mhz G3) had to use it (I think it was the first implemented with it), and I know my current Pismo uses heat-pipe heatsink.

Good thing 'bout heat-pipes is they use no energy, it's a passive process which uses heat to cycle water (wick like system). You can essentially contort heat-pipes to any shape, so it's a good way of transporting heat from point A to B.

I'm sure modern G4 books use 'em.

p'z

Finally, someone with a clue of what they are talking about.

When they say "liquid cooling", they do not mean mechanically pushing water around pipes inside the laptop, nor do they mean refridgerent cooling, ie compressing and expanding a liquid/gas.

The technology is called a heat pipe. Essentially it is a thin sealed tube with a liquid with a high heat capacity and relatively low boiling point. One end of the tube sits on the hot surface and the liquid inside is heated and vapourised. The vapour then moves via diffusion to the other end of the tube and condeses, dumping it's latent heat. Once condensed, the liquid is drawn by capillary action through thin groves in the tube, back to the other end of the tube to be heated again. The key is the capillary action, which allows the liquid to flow when the pipe is oriented in almost any direction.

I'm pretty sure it's already in use in the G4 laptops, to effectively distribute some of the heat from the cpu to other areas of the laptop.

[guenesis]

Originally posted by myrdred23
Hmm, trully an interesting machine. However, theres a few things I've noted, looking at that page.

First of all, the page layout is pretty much almost identical to Apple's, with the system spec charts and the buttons, layout, everything, set up the same way as Apple's website.

Another, is the benchmarks. Please, take these with a grain of salt. The G5 SPEC benchmarks are the ones Apple used at WWDC, that were recorded with the very inefficient GCC, whereas all the other ones are done w/ Intel's uber-P4-compiler. I'm sure if IBM's new compiler was used, the results would be drastically different (that compiler showed improvements of up to 2-2.5x on the same code).

Having said that, this system still looks hot. It is definetily the most "Pro" windows system I've seen, and some of the things (OS stored in RAM, not HD space, for really fast loading) are revolutionary (to a certain extent). It seems that this machine is aiming at the same market as the high-end G5, as it includes the same multitude of ports that the PowerMac has (even FW800), and some other cool features. Heh, I'd love to play around with this machine, to see how it really lives up to the hype the site presents.

Having said that, there are some pretty obvious disadvantages to this system. First is the OS, it seems that it comes with WinXP in its read-only RAM, and I don't think you are even able to change this to Linux, while keeping the system's fast RAM-loading of the OS. Another is the 32-bitness of the Pentium. In a few years, it will be obsolete. Also, I'd be interesting to know how loud this thing gets. Oh, and obviously, the price makes the G5 look like dollar-store material. Heh.

-Myrd
Hi Myrd,
I think that the site you are referring to is a hoax. While on the face of it, it looks pretty slick, it's rife with spelling errors and stock footage, plus some made up components. I think someone with an axe to grind against Apple is spoofing them. But maybe you already know that, and are just going along with the joke. ;)

guenesis

[acj]

Originally posted by lduncan
Finally, someone with a clue of what they are talking about.

When they say "liquid cooling", they do not mean mechanically pushing water around pipes inside the laptop, nor do they mean refridgerent cooling, ie compressing and expanding a liquid/gas.

The technology is called a heat pipe. Essentially it is a thin sealed tube with a liquid with a high heat capacity and relatively low boiling point. One end of the tube sits on the hot surface and the liquid inside is heated and vapourised. The vapour then moves via diffusion to the other end of the tube and condeses, dumping it's latent heat. Once condensed, the liquid is drawn by capillary action through thin groves in the tube, back to the other end of the tube to be heated again. The key is the capillary action, which allows the liquid to flow when the pipe is oriented in almost any direction.

I'm pretty sure it's already in use in the G4 laptops, to effectively distribute some of the heat from the cpu to other areas of the laptop.

Indeed. It is used on nearly all laptops. This is not new technology by any means. Heatpipes transfer heat 10s of times faster than metal. The trans-alaska oil pipeline in my backyard is supported by thousands of heatpipes. They freeze the ground so cold in the winter that it doesn't that durring the summer, so the pipeline doesn't sink. Heatpipes work great on a small scale too.

[Code101]

Originally posted by panphage
I'm pretty sure Intel isn't shipping any .09 chips yet. Almost positive. Going to a smaller process isn't any guarantee of a cooler chip, there's less surface area to cool, that's one thing that makes cooling harder.

Another person with his Opteron comments. Sigh. I love AMD but there is one tiny little obscure company that MAY have shipped some Opteron boxes meant for workstation use rather than as a server. Let's just let Apple have this, the Itanium was meant as a server chip and no one is selling them, the Opteron is an enterprise-level chip as well. When the Athlon64 is shipping, then you can compare an AMD chip in the same market as the G5. But the Opteron is just not part of that market, no matter what one obscure company decides to do with it. The Opteron competes with the POWER4, not it's kid brother 970.

The Intel Prescott .09 chips arn't shipping yet. We should see them next month sometime. Intel has been at .13 for well over two years now. I don't care which chip is more in the market. I just want to clear up the fact that the G5 is not the first 64 bit desktop processor.

As for the G5 in a powerbook, I won't get one with a cooling system like that. Time to go to .09 fast!

[singletrack]

Tundra aren't buying the Motorola Semi Conductor division, just their interconnect technology...

http://www.tundra.com/page.cfm?TREE_ID=101320

Reading further, it would appear that Motorola could offload it's bridge business and a lot of it's RapidIO business to Tundra which would appear to be what is in the offing here. Moto would then just do the CPU with Tundra doing the system interconnect parts and RapidIO bridges to PCI, RAM or whatever. Interesting but Apple/IBM have gone a different way with the G5.

[greenstork]

Originally posted by Code101
I just want to clear up the fact that the G5 is not the first 64 bit desktop processor.


I'm glad you cleared that up because Apple never made that claim. If you actualy read their advertisements, website, etc., you'd see that they say the G5 is the first 64 bit personal computer.

[greenstork]

Originally posted by panphage

Another person with his Opteron comments. Sigh. I love AMD but there is one tiny little obscure company that MAY have shipped some Opteron boxes meant for workstation use rather than as a server. Let's just let Apple have this, the Itanium was meant as a server chip and no one is selling them, the Opteron is an enterprise-level chip as well. When the Athlon64 is shipping, then you can compare an AMD chip in the same market as the G5. But the Opteron is just not part of that market, no matter what one obscure company decides to do with it. The Opteron competes with the POWER4, not it's kid brother 970.

Don't you hate it when technology is just too damn fast for you:

Athalon64 shipping (http://news.com.com/2100-1006-5080640.html?tag=nl)

[Code101]

Originally posted by greenstork
I'm glad you cleared that up because Apple never made that claim. If you actualy read their advertisements, website, etc., you'd see that they say the G5 is the first 64 bit personal computer.

Same thing! The Opteron is a Personal computer CPU as well. People had working Opteron based PC's on their desk before the G5 came out. Many months before!

[panphage]

Originally posted by greenstork
Don't you hate it when technology is just too damn fast for you:

Athalon64 shipping (http://news.com.com/2100-1006-5080640.html?tag=nl)

Well, I would say "damn" but that article is from today, about a product launch today. I'm three hours behind, curses!

Code, my man, please pay attention. The Opteron is NOT a personal computer chip, it's a server chip like the POWER4. It made it's way into some workstation-class machines from some fringe players. The Opteron cannot be a personal computer chip BY DEFINITION: If the Opteron is AMD's consumer 64-bit chip, then what product is AMD's enterprise 64-bit chip? And what then is the Athlon64, a below-consumer chip? AMD's 64-bit Celeron?


I happen to think apple's marketing is wrong, the G5 is pretty much a workstation-class product, BUT I also realize that Apple can't market it as a workstation when there are no Professional-level graphics cards available for it.

[jade]

it is all about the 32 bit use of the processor, I believe the g5 chip is the first 64 bit chip that doesn't run 32bit programs in emulation. The Other 64bit chips have to emulate the 32bit environment, making it slower thanan eqivalent speed 32bit processor for todays software. G5 runs the current software natively. And I belive personal computer is very applicable to the g5 because: in what average retail store can you purchase an AMD 64bit computer. That's the difference, personal computer means available in regualr channels. (compusa, apple stores, best buy, whatever)

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by MrMacman
Currently Water Cooling is used for Overclockers and People who hate to hear any trace of a fan.

Steve Jobs is one of those people.

Originally posted by PHGN
Speaking as an engineering student:

Liquid cooling has big advantages because...

Thanks for the report!

Originally posted by PHGN
On a side note, the nuclear reactors in submarines are mostly water-cooled. On an Ohio Class SSBN they don't use pumps. They rely on convection alone to move the coolant. The pumps are one of the main sources of noise on a nuclear sub. Rumour has it that the Ohio class boats are on average quieter than the equivalent volume of open sea water.

I sure couldn't hear it when I was out fishing with my dad and one of them came sailing through :)

(We used to fish in the Strait of Juan de Fuca. Submarines are always going through the Strait, coming and going from Bangor. In fact, just offshore of my home town, we used to have a Russian spy ship watching them!)

Originally posted by Plutoniq
Apple doesn't own Firewire technology anymore than Microsoft owns USB 1.1/2.0

They probably own the "Firewire" label (name itself), but the technology is licensed from a third-party developer.

Intel invented USB, and Apple invented FireWire.

That said, both Intel and Apple are willing to let just anyone use the technology.

I think Apple should cool their PowerBooks with liquid nitrogen. I will buy the protective gloves for Kodwarisan myself if this happens.

[revenuee]

http://www.go-l.com/desktops/machl35/features/index.htm


this site has been discussed, and is on going in another thread.

It's not real

1. those cooling systems have only been implemented in supercomputers, and when i say supercomputer i mean; room sized, teraflop (not gigflop like the g4's were advertized) producing, millions of dollars worth- systems, as well as in the research of potential superconductors

2. the company advertizes a 3.8 ghz processor that doesn't exist, expandable to 16 gigs of ram, which can't be done (yet), with 4 internal 250 gig harddrives, all neatly packaged in a 15" laptop.

3. the companies store accepts wire tranfers to a numbered account

4. Firewire is apple, I Link is sony - to everybody else it is IEEE 1394

my conclusion this site is probably

a. a masters or senior level project that a couple of business/multimedia students put together. This is often done at my University, i've just never seen one so good

b. a communications project showing how the internet has to be viewed critically because it is so easy to post information by just about anyone with a computer, internet connection, and some time.

[Daveman Deluxe]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Intel invented USB, and Apple invented FireWire.

That said, both Intel and Apple are willing to let just anyone use the technology.

Right on, Phil. Apple charges licensing fees for each FireWire port produced (something like a dollar a port), and Intel does the same with the USB part.

[valmiki]

One possible application of a chip-sized cooling device is described here: http://www.eetimes.com/news/97/973news/micro.html

It's a stirling engine design, built by http://www.sunpower.com. Stirling engines can also be used to recycle heat into electricity.

Another option is thermoacoustic cooliing: http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,49720,00.html

[revenuee]

i think the first line of that article supports my point

"Engineers at Sun Power Inc. are engaged in an ambitious micromachine research effort that aims to shrink cooling technology to the chip level."

i think the key word is "aims", suggesting that it doesn't exist yet, atleast not in working, marketable way.

reading on the article supports this interpretation.

[revenuee]

If this is what the G5 PB will need, i wouldn't hold our breaths for it coming out anytime soon. These new cooling technologies iare going to take some time before they are implemented into personal computers. I also doubt that we will see such a system in a laptop before we see it in a desktop.

[valmiki]

Originally posted by revenuee
i think the first line of that article supports my point

"Engineers at Sun Power Inc. are engaged in an ambitious micromachine research effort that aims to shrink cooling technology to the chip level."

i think the key word is "aims", suggesting that it doesn't exist yet, atleast not in working, marketable way.

reading on the article supports this interpretation.

right. the article appears to be from 97, but from the materials available on their website, they don't have chip-size coolers ready

[panphage]

Well, here's another case where folks might want to actually READ the article in question. It mentions that IBM has had watercooling for Thinkpads since "the late 90's". It also mentions a hitachi system with watercooling.

Past that, it is rife with sloppy detail. It refers to the "powerpc G5 processor" twice. We all know there is no G5 processor...apple makes sure to say that G5 refers to the entire system, like Centrino. It also mentions the "intense heat" of the proc. Sorry, the data doesn't support "intense heat" coming from the proc. If they had mentioned the ASIC I'd cut them some slack.

"In January, a researcher at Sandia National Laboratories announced that he had created technology to disperse the heat generated within laptop computers more efficiently than the current cooling systems. The new process uses heat from the CPU to convert methanol into a vapor with the aid of a heat pipe "wick" created out of finely etched lines. The vapor then releases the heat it is carrying in a specified area, where it turns back to liquid and returns to collect more heat.

At the time, the technology was being licensed to an upstart company, but no
further information was made available."

Uhh...well, heat pipes are everywhere now. Zalman even has one for GPUs. Maybe the article writer meant that this specific methanol carrying heatpipe was obscure. I've seen pics of the inside of the tibook, and that machine has several heatpipes running all over the place.

Why not try thermo-electric cooling? http://www.thermaltake.com/products/subzero/subzero4g.htm Now there's a powerburner for you.

[MARJAR]

Originally posted by Big Lar
These guys are already using a liquid heat sink for the CPU: http://www.go-l.com/laptops/hollywood/features/index.htm


Can't believe how 'similar' this companys' website is to Apples'

[valmiki]

more on thermo-acoustic chip-cooler: http://www.darpa.mil/MTO/HERETIC/projects/6.html

there are termoacoustic resonators that can turn heat into electrical energy as well - say prolonged battery life

[Lanbrown]

Originally posted by Code101
Only 800MHz to the RAM! the speed between the processor and memory controller could be 5GHz for all I care. The fact is that form the memory controller to the RAM, it's only 800MHz. No different than Intel.

Apple tries to make the 970 sound like it's the first of everything commercially. Just like the first 64bit desktop line. The AMD Opteron was out before the 970. It's a 64 bit processor running on only the 32bit side of the core because there isn't a release of Windows XP 64 bit addition for AMD yet. Just like Jaguar and Panther is not 64bit. The G5 being able to run 64 bit is limited to the OS and applications that are not yet 64bit. Just like Opteron.

The Opteron is designed for the workstation and server market. If you want to nit pick though, Sun, IBM, HP and even DEC has/had 64-bit workstations back in the 90's. Why do people always bring the Opteron up like that was the first 64-bit chip?

[Lanbrown]

Originally posted by Code101
Same thing! The Opteron is a Personal computer CPU as well. People had working Opteron based PC's on their desk before the G5 came out. Many months before!

People have had 64-bit systems on their desks from IBM, Sun, HP, DEC, etc. for YEARS.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by revenuee
4. Firewire is apple, I Link is sony - to everybody else it is IEEE 1394

Actually, Apple's letting everyone call it FireWire.

Originally posted by panphage
Past that, it is rife with sloppy detail. It refers to the "powerpc G5 processor" twice. We all know there is no G5 processor...apple makes sure to say that G5 refers to the entire system, like Centrino.

http://www.apple.com/g5processor/

[JoeRadar]

Originally posted by Lanbrown
People have had 64-bit systems on their desks from IBM, Sun, HP, DEC, etc. for YEARS.

Yes, I have two 64-bit DEC alpha-based systems from about 1997. One is designed to be a desktop system, the other a server. I actually haven't turned them on for over a year.

However, I don't think anyone thought of the Alpha systems or most of the other 64-bit systems as mass market, consumer-oriented personal computers. That, IMHO, is the difference between today's G5 and Athlon systems.

[Daveman Deluxe]

I wonder if an inexpensive Peltier cooler would be out of the question to use as a G5 PowerBook's cooling device.

[gothamac]

Forbes.com has a stoy about this L computers.
Could this company be real?

http://www.forbes.com/2003/09/24/cx_ah_0924tentech.html?partner=yahoo&referrer=

[atszyman]

Originally posted by Daveman Deluxe
I wonder if an inexpensive Peltier cooler would be out of the question to use as a G5 PowerBook's cooling device.

The only problem with a Peltier cooler is that you've effectively made one side of the cooler cold at the expense of heating the other side. You've moved the heat the thickness of the cooler but you still have to get it somewhere else. I suppose you could use the aluminum case to heatsink the hot side of the cooler, but I don't think you'd be able to keep the laptop on your lap for very long. That and they evidently draw quite a bit of power, which wouldn't be good for the battery life.

http://www.heatsink-guide.com/peltier.htm