Dell DJ and Dell Music Store Details

[MacRumors]

CNet provides (http://news.com.com/2100-1027_3-5082948.html) some rumored details to the upcoming service from Dell.

According to their sources, MusicMatch will be launching their online music service next week, and will be providing a stand-alone Dell branded version of the service.

Ironically, MusicMatch currently provides the PC jukebox software bundled with the PC version of the Apple iPod. Apple has been working on its own version of iTunes for Windows, however, and is due by the year's end.

CNet's article comments on the industry feeling that an integrated jukebox/store application is the way to go... and reports that BuyMusic.com is also working on it's version of a standalone jukebox/store application.

Meanwhile, according to a statement (http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/6865977.htm) from Apple, Dell is also rebranding a Creative MP3 player as the upcoming Dell DJ:

It appears that Dell is re-branding one of the second-tier music services that will be announced soon, just like they are re-branding Creative's MP3 player. There is little original here

[dstorey]

nice to see some original creative thinking going on at Dell and Musicmatch then....:rolleyes: though being dell, it'll be preinstalled I would guess on all their new machines and give it huge market penetration, in much the same way as emmm$ can do with their service...people often use what softwares given to them on PC's as they don't know or dont care how to install new software or look for alternatives. Apple has this problem on the wintel side of the fence, unless they can strike a deal with the likes of AOL to include it as a component that is installed with their service...mayber the iPod will be enough to get it onto peoples computers though....

[MacFan26]

I hope this means that iTMS for Windows is coming out soon. Last thing I want to hear about is all my friends and their Dells, downloading music from their own service.

[LimeLite]

the industry feeling that an integrated jukebox/store application is the way to go

Oh is that what they think? It never ceases to amaze me when I see jobs whose criteria is stating the obvious.

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by Macrumors
CNet's article comments on the industry feeling that an integrated jukebox/store application is the way to go...
Isn't it what the iTMS/iPod combo is?

[Tom800]

Good thing that they're rebranding the Creative JB - The Zen MX is pretty sweet, and maybe Dell will let it play AAC files. I wish the iPod would get the same sound quality that Creative's had for years.

[bbarnhart]

I think we should all launch an online music store. It can be powered by the same back end.

I wonder what will happen when customers realized that the half dozen or so PC centric online music stores are basically the same store with just a different front. If Apple wants to stay ahead of the game it needs to find a way to differentiate itself.

Exclusives are good. I've bought several songs that you can't buy at a traditional store (usually remixes). Good luck, Apple.

[dbally]

I should start a company where I'd take products by companies we all know and love and then put my name on them and sell them as my own. Since they'd all have my brand on them, they'd obviously be original and unique. Damn! Dell beat me to it.

:D

[mymemory]

Ok, why is it taken so long for Apple to come out with a shi** version of iTunes for PC???

People are coping the ideas and have time even to produce the software.

Damn, with the slow ditribution of the G5 and the iTunes software I gues some people are under too much pot at Apple.

If Apple has the crappy market share they actually have is because they want to.

[Omek]

Danget! Why can't Mike Dell come up with his own dang ideas!?!? He copies EVERYTHING Apple does and calls it "innovation." Ya right... please... Dell can kiss my arse.

As for iTunes for Windows, expect Apple to get on the ball once Dell and these other people start releasing new online music stores. I'm sure they'll have it ready by late October when they release Panther... ;)

[cwkoller5]

I can't help but remember just before the iPod debuted that Jobs said this would "change everything." The press passed this off as Jobsian überhype and RDF, but in retrospect ... he was right.

Apple was obviously in the early stages of developing ITMS when the iPod came out, and it was the combo that created the critical mass, but regardless, thanks to Apple, music will never be the same.

I imagine with Jobs, this philosophy goes far beyond music, so eventually all digital media (as part of the Digital Hub concept) will receive the same treatment. But the main beneficiaries are always going to be Mac users. This may seem like Apple letting Dell and MS simply scoop up the Windows side of the equation, and letting them claim the "innovation" for themselves, but in this case, it's readily apparent to all that Dell is "copying" the true innovators. Dell is seen in the press as lunging for the money with no inspiration or risk on their part, just drafting in Apple's innovative wake.

And dayyam, is that DJ fuhglay!

If/When ITMS for Windows launches (probably at the same time as Dell's), Apple should be able to hold its dominance. The real test here, isn't if Apple can innovate (a given), it's whether they can ultimately capitalize on their intellectual capital, instead of historically allowing others to sneak off with the profit and market share.

I'm hoping they can this time. I'm sure that's what the market is looking at, because never have I seen as many opportunities for Apple (in these days of distain for the MS "monoculture" and its national security risks) as right now.

Let's see if they can seize this chance to break out of the niche...

[DGFan]

You should all know by now that Dell doesn't actually invest in research or invent stuff. They sell "Dell" printers and other peripherals that aren't theirs. It just makes sense they would do the same with a music service and player.

[kuyu]

WOW! those "dudes" at dell certainly are original. Did you see that new silver laptop they "invented." Here's some insight into the creative process at every wintel manufacturer. Step one: buy some Apple stuff and copy it. Step two: Rinse and repeat.

[cthorp]

They don't copy ideas. Their interns come up with them. Just kidding of course.

How about the ad where the interns travel accross the country and "discover" they should bundle the software people use with the machines. It drives me crazy!!! They must of visited an apple store on their trip.

[Freg3000]

I can't understand why Apple is taking so much more time to get a PC iTMS out. Although it does not need too be first (as shown by buymusic.com) it does need to come out soon. Especially is the Dell one is released relatively soon. People know Dell, and would naturally use their service if there is no iTMS.

The only thing I am hoping for that justifies why Apple is taking so much time, is that they will have much less stringent DRM management. Hopefully Dell (Music Match) is just pounding out contracts without broad rights just to get it out there.

Apple Hurry Up!!!

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by Tom800
Good thing that they're rebranding the Creative JB - The Zen MX is pretty sweet, and maybe Dell will let it play AAC files. I wish the iPod would get the same sound quality that Creative's had for years.

I don't understand your comment about poor sound from the iPod. AFAIK the iPod is the only MP3 player that's been endoursed<sp?> by various home theater sites/mags as being good enough to use as a home theater component. And I'm sure that w/the introduction of the dock and it's line-out that that has only improved things for the iPod in regards to home theater.


Lethal

[Java]

I think this will work to Apple's advantage. I am hypothesizing here, but I feel Dell's online music service will serve up some .wma files with varrying DRM so some songs can be transfered to the dPod, some can't. Customers will be frustrated after they realize that it is not as glamorous as it looked.

Then comes along Apple. Same DRM rights across the board, great quality with AAC, and will turn the tide over to Apple.

Apple's iTMS for Windoze will come out at exactly the right time it needs too. Meanwhile we have to put up with Tommy Lee and Michael Dell as the leaders of the PC Music Stores.

Just my $.02.

[fred]

Originally posted by mymemory
Ok, why is it taken so long for Apple to come out with a shi** version of iTunes for PC???

People are coping the ideas and have time even to produce the software.

Damn, with the slow ditribution of the G5 and the iTunes software I gues some people are under too much pot at Apple.

If Apple has the crappy market share they actually have is because they want to.

I must say there are probably other issues (acceptable Windows licensing terms -- notably DRM issues --from the Big 5 record labels) , but aside from that I must say I am disappointed in Apple's PACE of innovation. When they do deliver they deliver far above average products.... but where's the PDA and/or tablet and other consumer electronics products Apple should be in in order to compete with Sony, Dell and Gateway ?

[zim]

The only way that any of these other services will work is by making them work with the dominate player, the ipod, as I see it, it is dominate. Just about every other student that I see at college has one, well every other student in the design/art building.

The only think that I see Dell doing right is the bundle, I wonder, would apple be able to do an amazon thing and license its library of music to be sold through another provider?

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by fred
I must say there are probably other issues (acceptable Windows licensing terms -- notably DRM issues --from the Big 5 record labels)
I don't get it: why should it be any different than what we already have on Macs. It's the format of the files and the iTMS account that provides for DRM. And those 2 will be no different with iTunes for Windows.:confused:

[tYNS]

I posted a message a long time ago before the Apple Music Store was launched that a PC iTunes was needed. I also said stated that it should be done at launch or "shortly" after. Why? for this exact reason.

I used to be a PC guy and never really realized how much the rest of the computer industry rips apple off all the time. Although apple does their share of ripping off too. PC companies generally tend to rip-off the REALLY good idea and innovations.

Anyhow, because of this rash of expanding online music stores, I think Apple has lost their niche. It has taken WAY too long to get the PC version of iTunes out now. Many alternatives have filled the void. It is basically going to be a struggle to get people to download there software and use it now. As a previous writer wrote, dell has desktop dominance and will surely bundle musicmatch music store software on their machines.

If iTunes does come out for PC it better be 100% bug-free. When there are so many choices out there, one bad experience with any application will make the user go to the next one and try.

PC iTunes BETTER come out quick too. Being the first on the MAC means nothing if you really want to make a large business out of a venture.

[macmax]

I really love Apple , you all know it by now, but Apple has a huge marketing problem.

If people don't know you are there, they will never see you.

We need more adds, a revolution, lot's of noise, sound , colors.

Not these lame adds like the world is all white.

And noise, lot's of noise so everyone would understand once and for all who researched and developed good things.

I bet there will be lot's of folks going crazy with this "new" idea from Dull

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by NicoMan
I don't get it: why should it be any different than what we already have on Macs. It's the format of the files and the iTMS account that provides for DRM. And those 2 will be no different with iTunes for Windows.:confused:

PC users tend to be more hack happy than Mac users. I mean, you release something on a PC and it's probably hacked w/in days. Also, the current community that uses iTMS is relatively small so if someone hacks/by-passes the DRM it's not a huge deal in the eyes of the record companies. But if the same thing happens on the PC side of things that is a huge deal. It's basically the reason that the iTMS has the most liberal DRM. Apple provides a smaller and easier to control client base than the windows world.


Lethal

[thedoc1111]

Dell, glamourous…

;)

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by LethalWolfe
PC users tend to be more hack happy than Mac users. I mean, you release something on a PC and it's probably hacked w/in days. Also, the current community that uses iTMS is relatively small so if someone hacks/by-passes the DRM it's not a huge deal in the eyes of the record companies. But if the same thing happens on the PC side of things that is a huge deal. It's basically the reason that the iTMS has the most liberal DRM. Apple provides a smaller and easier to control client base than the windows world.
Lethal
I don't know if you can say that PC users are more hack-happy. The numbers of hackers is obviously much higher, but in percentage to the total user base I'm not so sure. But anyway, it is all a question of trust between Apple's DRM rights management and the Big 5.

[Jerry Spoon]

"There is little original here."

That holds true with Dell putting out their borrowed concepts and it holds true with Apple not getting off of there rears and really taking hold of a market like they could and should.

[Mr. G4]

Did you remember Apple hired only one programmer to do the job :)

Originally posted by mymemory
Ok, why is it taken so long for Apple to come out with a shi** version of iTunes for PC???

People are coping the ideas and have time even to produce the software.

Damn, with the slow ditribution of the G5 and the iTunes software I gues some people are under too much pot at Apple.

If Apple has the crappy market share they actually have is because they want to.

[QuiteSure]

I think Apple's timing is OK and this will work out great. I am willing to bet that the Musicmatch and Dell stores will be far inferior to iTMS; when iTMS for Windows makes its appearance, the music buying audience will become extremely excited, and Apple will prevail, no longer shunted in its world of perceived overpriced "niche" minority.

At that point, the Windows world will have their first Apple experience, which will far surpass the other experiences available. As witness to this experience, their first actual, first-hand view of Apple products and superior user experience, this vast unwashed mass of Windows users will begin to consider whether, just as the iTMS is more pleasurable to use than its Windows-based competition, the Apple computer experience is similarly superior to the Windows user experience.

Then market share will increase dramatically.

Just wait. It WILL happen.

[Awimoway]

Nice to see Apple trash-talking Dell. Go get 'em.

[the_dalex]

but where's the PDA and/or tablet and other consumer electronics products Apple should be in in order to compete with Sony, Dell and Gateway ?

I think Apple is very smart to stay out of these markets at this point. PDA and Tablets are going to continue to be niche products for a while, and the necessary technology for a full-featured, slim, light tablet just isn't available yet. PDA sales have dropped tremendously over the past two years, and with tablets you have to give up a lot and pay a ton.

[Nutzoids]

Over the years Apple has gone up and down...Steve has been fired and re-hired...I will leave my trust with the experts. I know they have a plan...we just don't know it...WHERE IS THE TRUST?


I give it just a few short years until Apple Takes over the market share...Well at least hits it hard...and makes the PC world rock something feirce! We are at the for-front of a revolution!

[yoda13]

This is actually quite flattering to Apple. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Most new advances in the realm of personal computers and personal computing devices can be traced back to ideas or products that have originated with Apple. This is no different. I just hope that Apple hurries up and gets the windows version of the iTMS out soon. There is a golden opportunity here and I hope that they don't miss it:)

[LimeLite]

Originally posted by NicoMan
But anyway, it is all a question of trust between Apple's DRM rights management and the Big 5.
Apple's digital rights management rights management?

I'll be right back, gotta go use the ATM machine. :D

[j33pd0g]

I don't think Gates will allow a windows version of iTunes. It'll be out for a half a day and then mysteriously it'll be pulled at the request of Microsoft. Back on topic: The dell DJ store will only be for DJ's, right? And it'll bite.

[howard]

keep in mind apple has had there music service up and running for months now with great success...its been hailed as very successful...all these new comers are the competitors nor in a way...even though its on a different platform.

apple has had all this time to iron out all the bugs int he system, and also add thousands of tunes to there service...they have the 1up and should be doing pretty well if they can keep the drm unrestrictive for the pc world and if they can get lots and lots of tunes on there...

thats really what it will come down to in the end....i'll use the service where i can search for some thing and find it...no matter what it is..as long as its been released it will be there. thats really how it is with kazaa, now they just make it legit.

on another note...it should be a little cheaper per song...thats just my opinion..and none of that have to buy a full album or only partial albums...

[Tom800]

Originally posted by LethalWolfe
I don't understand your comment about poor sound from the iPod. AFAIK the iPod is the only MP3 player that's been endoursed<sp?> by various home theater sites/mags as being good enough to use as a home theater component. And I'm sure that w/the introduction of the dock and it's line-out that that has only improved things for the iPod in regards to home theater.


Lethal

Check the tech specs for each - the Creative has a much better amp inside - 98db. I've heard both extensively, and the iPod sounds tinny and 'boxed' compared with the power and lifelike sound of the Creative.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by fred
I must say there are probably other issues (acceptable Windows licensing terms -- notably DRM issues --from the Big 5 record labels) , but aside from that I must say I am disappointed in Apple's PACE of innovation. When they do deliver they deliver far above average products.... but where's the PDA and/or tablet and other consumer electronics products Apple should be in in order to compete with Sony, Dell and Gateway ?

Apple is far too focused to do that. They don't want to wildly go out into every market at once. Right now they're focusing on music.

Wildly going out into every market at once almost killed Apple.

Originally posted by j33pd0g
I don't think Gates will allow a windows version of iTunes. It'll be out for a half a day and then mysteriously it'll be pulled at the request of Microsoft. Back on topic: The dell DJ store will only be for DJ's, right? And it'll bite.

Why would Apple do what Microsoft requests?

[Steven1621]

CNet's article comments on the industry feeling that an integrated jukebox/store application is the way to go...


hmmm....i wonder who thought of that first...

[SeaFox]

Originally posted by Macrumors
CNet provides (http://news.com.com/2100-1027_3-5082948.html) some rumored details to the upcoming service from Dell.

According to their sources, MusicMatch will be launching their online music service next week, and will be providing a stand-alone Dell branded version of the service.

Ironically, MusicMatch currently provides the PC jukebox software bundled with the PC version of the Apple iPod.

There's nothing ironic about it. MusicMatch knows PC users want access to the iTMS, especially Windows iPod owners. They have the outlet to connect to the iPod. Apple's taking its time with Wintel iTunes... Hey! let's do ourselves before they can!

[SeaFox]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac

Posted by j33pd0g:
I don't think Gates will allow a windows version of iTunes. It'll be out for a half a day and then mysteriously it'll be pulled at the request of Microsoft. Back on topic: The dell DJ store will only be for DJ's, right? And it'll bite.

Why would Apple do what Microsoft requests?

Nah, Microsoft wont request it. They'll just release one of thier weekly "patches" and it will stop working. They can keep it up as long as Apple doesn't sue them. No one will blink twice at the fact Microsoft is releasing a new patch everytime Apple fixes iTunes for Windows so it works again, they're used to getting an update every few days from M$ because of their well-known sloppy coding.

Even when Apple sues they can keep it going while the 3 year trial runs, all the while the competitors can try and retry their own music stores.

[Phil Of Mac]

Wow. THAT'S why the Windows iPod doesn't work either?

:rolleyes:

Why would Microsoft even bother to try blocking the Windows iTMS? What gain is there for them?

[tychay]

Originally posted by Tom800
Check the tech specs for each - the Creative has a much better amp inside - 98db. I've heard both extensively, and the iPod sounds tinny and 'boxed' compared with the power and lifelike sound of the Creative.

Don't take this as an insult:

Tech specs have little to do with sound quality.
Apple's tech specs (http://www.apple.com/ipod/specs.html) don't list their dB, however they recently had to release a patch for European iPods because France has a restriction of 100dB. Therefore one can easily assume that the iPod is over 100dB.
Not to sure what sound volume has to do with sound quality.
"tinny and boxed" is probably more likely due to an improper testing environment, improper testing parameters (comparing to each other instead of a reference), or possible artificial bass boost in the Creative.
If the last is the case, this can easily be adjusted since iTunes synchronizes the equalizer settings to the iPod. In other words you can shape the sound on a per song basis. Note that doing this on the iPod itself limits you to one of 20 presets. This is classic Apple, but I actually consider this a plus.
Apple uses the well-regarded Wolfson codec (http://www.designchain.com/coverstory.asp?issue=summer02) which has the highest sound quality of any portable codec. Of course if you are playing back an AIFF/WAV then Wolfson's restrictions will introduce (inaudible) changes in the sound.
The Apple earbuds are the only decent quality bundled headphones of any player on the market.


Now in your defense, there are a number of people who agree with you (http://members.brabant.chello.nl/~m.heijligers/ipod/) but these people still highly recommend the iPod.

Some other replies:

Re: Apple's delay in iTunes for Windows. Did anybody read the article? Dell was able to shortcut the time to market by using an existing MP3 player (Creative) and existing software (MusicMatch). So far, the only company to successfully develop in less time was the disastrous BuyMusic.com which has neither a software or hardware component (as a web developer, I'd say they don't have much of an internet component either).

BTW, the fact that they are rebranding MusicMatch shows that unlike Apple, Dell is not leveraging their internet infrastructure to support digital downloads. Nor are they leveraging their supply chain advantages in producing the player. Nor is their any retail advantage beyond "bundling"--a big advantage for a big ticket item like a computer, but negligible for a consumer item like an MP3 player. While Dell's strategy is in keeping with their modus operandi, it is a much weaker offering than it appears because it doesn't play to their strengths and does nothing to overcome perceived Dell weaknesses: they have no previous experience in software; they do not develop any hardware but simply streamline hardware component assembly and bundling; they close themselves out to retailers through direct sale.

There is no evidence that Apple wasn't developing iTunes for Windows from earlier. The one job listing notwithstanding.

Many others have answered why there wasn't a simultaneous release of iTMS on both platforms.

[Tom800]

Originally posted by tychay
[B]Don't take this as an insult:

Tech specs have little to do with sound quality.
Apple's tech specs (http://www.apple.com/ipod/specs.html) don't list their dB, however they recently had to release a patch for European iPods because France has a restriction of 100dB. Therefore one can easily assume that the iPod is over 100dB.
Not to sure what sound volume has to do with sound quality.
"tinny and boxed" is probably more likely due to an improper testing environment, improper testing parameters (comparing to each other instead of a reference), or possible artificial bass boost in the Creative.
If the last is the case, this can easily be adjusted since iTunes synchronizes the equalizer settings to the iPod. In other words you can shape the sound on a per song basis. Note that doing this on the iPod itself limits you to one of 20 presets. This is classic Apple, but I actually consider this a plus.
Apple uses the well-regarded Wolfson codec (http://www.designchain.com/coverstory.asp?issue=summer02) which has the highest sound quality of any portable codec. Of course if you are playing back an AIFF/WAV then Wolfson's restrictions will introduce (inaudible) changes in the sound.
The Apple earbuds are the only decent quality bundled headphones of any player on the market.


Now in your defense, there are a number of people who agree with you (http://members.brabant.chello.nl/~m.heijligers/ipod/) but these people still highly recommend the iPod.



I don't work on the basis of tech specs either - I only mention the 98db as Creative plasters it all over their site as the key to their sound quality. I suppose that the louder sound is indicative of a more powreful amp. The iPod is nowhere near as loud other than on 'shrill' tracks, trust me. I don't know how that 100db thing that you mention came about.

My main point comes from listening to the same music, from the same source files (160 mp3), over months and months on each device, sometimes side by side in direct comparrison. The iPod sounds terrible compared to the Creative. Now its got AAC, which lends it a hand, but the sound still isn't there in terms of bass (there isn't much) or dynamic punch.

I'm using the Koss Porta-Pro headphones on each, and also occaisionally the Grado SR-80s, but these hardly run on the iPod at all. But this is not a matter of being an audiophile (which I'm not), it's just that the iPod is not as good soundwise! I don't know how else to describe this - listen to both and the iPod sounds tinny and boxed. All the energy is gone!

[thies]

the question is, will Apple manage to *finally* bring it's music store to countries outside the US or will the alternatives be here first and leave apple out in the cold?

[tsunake]

Originally posted by Tom800

I'm using the Koss Porta-Pro headphones on each, and also occaisionally the Grado SR-80s, but these hardly run on the iPod at all. But this is not a matter of being an audiophile (which I'm not), it's just that the iPod is not as good soundwise! I don't know how else to describe this - listen to both and the iPod sounds tinny and boxed. All the energy is gone!

The iPod is designed as a portable music player. It would seem that Apple chose a lower power amplifier over higher quality sound. This was almost certainly a conscious design decision - being able to listen to your music all day is a lot better than it sounding awesome for an hour. If you don't like this design philosophy, buy a headphone amp, or use the Creative.

Creative chose to supply a larger battery at the cost of size and weight. Perhaps that's the better decision, but I know I'm more than satisfied with my iPod.

If anyone has signal to noise numbers for the current iPods or a mAh rating for the Creative Zen NX's battery, I'm interested.

[gerardrj]

Originally posted by fred
... but where's the PDA and/or tablet and other consumer electronics products Apple should be in in order to compete with Sony, Dell and Gateway ?

Steve has been interviewed several times on these topics:

PDA: Jobs does not see Apple making a PDA any time soon. There's nothing they can bring to the table that would make for a "stand out" product. Jobs generally comments that todays' PDAs are about as full featured and easy to use as they can be.

Tablet: Sure there are companies that have tablet PCs. Have you seen the sales numbers for the things? They're lousy. No-one is making money from them. Jobs made the comment that tablet PCs didn't seem to be in demand, so Apple wouldn't make one yet. The same with a hand-held video player, the market just isn't looking for such a device at the moment.

Since the Amelio days ended and Jobs returned, Apple has been all about producing a few high quality products that are easy to use, easy to live with and do what you want them to do. While Jobs was off the farm, Apple took Dell and GateWay and other's tack and made dozens of products in every shape and size. They were almost all crap, and it was super confusing to the average buyer. What was the difference between many of the Quadras and the Performas? Almost nothing except branding.
Jobs thinks (apparently correctly from the market share numbers) that his route is best. Make the entire widget: hardware, software, services. All under one controllable umbrella. Use that strength not to pound people in to submission with proprietary formats, but to provide a unique an enahanced experience while using open standards, trusting in the owner's sense of right/wrong, and putting out some of the best design ever to hit consumer electronics shelves.

[Tom800]

Originally posted by tsunake
The iPod is designed as a portable music player. It would seem that Apple chose a lower power amplifier over higher quality sound. This was almost certainly a conscious design decision - being able to listen to your music all day is a lot better than it sounding awesome for an hour. If you don't like this design philosophy, buy a headphone amp, or use the Creative.

Creative chose to supply a larger battery at the cost of size and weight. Perhaps that's the better decision, but I know I'm more than satisfied with my iPod.

If anyone has signal to noise numbers for the current iPods or a mAh rating for the Creative Zen NX's battery, I'm interested.

Well the Creative site talks about 14 hours of non-stop playback at normal use settings... And the battery is removal so you can swap them and get a much as you want.

The Zen NX is now the size of the older, larger iPods, so I don't think sound quality equates to size. I think Apple simply know they don't need to compete in this area as they can sell on style and ease of use.

[tychay]

Originally posted by Tom800
I don't know how that 100db thing that you mention came about.

My main point comes from listening to the same music, from the same source files (160 mp3), over months and months on each device, sometimes side by side in direct comparrison. The iPod sounds terrible compared to the Creative. Now its got AAC, which lends it a hand, but the sound still isn't there in terms of bass (there isn't much) or dynamic punch.

I'm using the Koss Porta-Pro headphones on each, and also occaisionally the Grado SR-80s, but these hardly run on the iPod at all.

You're very dismissive of my post. The "100db thing" (http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/main_news.cfm?NewsID=5335) can be found with any net search in which they state that the max volume of the iPod is 104dB except in Europe where France's restriction limits it to 100dB (there are workaround on the net).

As I stated earlier, a side-by-side comparison is not correct. Instead both should be compared independently to a known reference sound (high quality stereo system + speakers with known flat response curves). Most audiophile setups do not qualify since they prefer a rounder/deeper sound than what an audio engineer wants. Otherwise I can simply adjust the sound with an equalizer (on a song-by-song basis in iTunes and then synced down to the iPod) or more volume (iTunes has volume adjustment that will raise the volume on some songs and lower the volume on others). This is what I recommend everyone who has a problem with their iPod's "tinny" sound do (select their entire library and use the equalizer to boost the base). The iPod is shooting for accurate reproduction of the sound and you need to use the equalizer to make it sound more what you might be used to.

One nice trick is to put two sources output the same music and the same sound and have a friend flip between them. I found it honestly very hard to tell the difference between the best LAME encoded MP3s and CDs (well, I'll be honest, I couldn't tell the difference--I guess I have poor comparitive abilities, despite the fact that I have a better than normal hearing sensitivity).

In general, any study has shown that the iPod and the best Creative players have similar sound output quality with perhaps the Creative being a little better at reference wave forms as the iPod introduces artifacts at -5dB according to the linked article--6 decades lower than the softest audible sound.

Ironically, I have the same two model headphones as you do. They're both great. I noticed that a lot of people now recommend the SR-80s over the previous favorite SR-60. Why? The SR-80s put out a louder distortion-free bass (http://www.goodcans.com/HeadphoneReviews/60vs80.htm) even though the capabilities of the two headphones are the same.

Take care,

terry

[rikers_mailbox]

*long time lurker - first time poster*

"Apple has been working on its own version of iTunes for Windows, however, and is due by the year's end."


hmm . . . iTunes for Windows. How about iLife for Windows?? Imagine, a new Apple designed digicam (high quality .mpeg and .jpeg) nearly as inventive as the iPod was for music. . . then add in the whole line of iLife for Windows. . and *poof*, you have an Apple Media Suite for Windows.

That will mark the demise of Micro$oft. Mark my words, and give it 3 years.

-rik

[SeaFox]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Wow. THAT'S why the Windows iPod doesn't work either?

:rolleyes:

Why would Microsoft even bother to try blocking the Windows iTMS? What gain is there for them?

1) Don't most of the other music stores use WMA files?
2) Apple would be using AAC and Quicktime would surely be a required component in iTunes for Windows.
3) Wasn't Microsoft working on their own music store?
:rolleyes:

Next you'll ask me why GM would want to keep Ford from making SUV's.

[iPost]

You people are really naive if you think Apple was the first to think of the idea of an online music store. This was being talked about years ago during the dot-com era (I know, I was working at one such dot-com that was trying to do it), but no one was able to get the record labels to buy into it and license their content. Apple was the first to be able to do it, precisely because they have a small, self-contained market. The record labels were just testing the waters with Apple to see if they really wanted to do something like this. Once the tests showed that money could be made, they opened up their content to others like buymusic and Dell. It was the record labels that were holding this idea back... Don't get me wrong, Apple has a wonderful record of great innovations (and I'm a proud Mac user), but the online music store really can't be counted as such (neither can the iPod -- sorry, Rio gets the original innovation prize for a portable digital music player). In both cases, Apple was just implementing ideas that had already been around for years.

Are you really surprised that others are going to do this once the labels allow them to? People have been waiting years to get the permission to open sites like this.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by iPost
Don't get me wrong, Apple has a wonderful record of great innovations (and I'm a proud Mac user), but the online music store really can't be counted as such (neither can the iPod -- sorry, Rio gets the original innovation prize for a portable digital music player). In both cases, Apple was just implementing ideas that had already been around for years.

Other than the Newton and the QuickTake digital camera, Apple has not had a "record of great innovations" if you mean inventing something entirely of their own.

There were personal computers before the Apple II. But the Apple II was the first one normal people would actually buy.

There were GUI's before the Lisa and the Mac. However, the Lisa and the Mac were much better and mass marketed.

There were portable CDM (compressed digital music) players before the iPod. Except for the iPod, they all sucked, and largely still do.

(I say compressed digital music instead of digital music because CD's are digital music.)

There were online music stores before iTMS. I bought music from one of them. However, except for iTMS, they all suck.

Apple rarely invents things. What Apple does is improve things. That is the nature of their innovation, and both iTMS and iPod can be counted as Apple innovations.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by SeaFox
1) Don't most of the other music stores use WMA files?
2) Apple would be using AAC and Quicktime would surely be a required component in iTunes for Windows.
3) Wasn't Microsoft working on their own music store?
:rolleyes:

Next you'll ask me why GM would want to keep Ford from making SUV's.

I highly doubt MS would deliberately sabotage iTunes in any case. It would be more trouble than it's worth.

[Bengt77]

Originally posted by Nutzoids
I give it just a few short years until Apple Takes over the market share...Well at least hits it hard...and makes the PC world rock something feirce! We are at the for-front of a revolution!

How I would love you to be proven right in due time. I just don't believe it right now. Hopefully they can (re)gain the trust they (admittedly really do) deserve and build upon that to become a L.A.R.G.E. player O.U.T.T.H.E.R.E.

Gawd, how I hope that'll happen...

:(

[Abstract]

Apple has rarely created something completely on their own. Yes, that includes the iSoftware that comes with Apple computers, Safari, etc etc etc.

Phil of Mac is right.

[ryaxnb]

You do realize that if the MMMS (MusicMatch Music Store) uses Windows Media it will not work on the iPod, don't you? The iPod is the leading music player (not necessairily MP3.) And even if the Dell DJtakes away say 20% of the market for the iPod, people will probably still be buying it. And there will be plenty of people who already have one. Like BuyMusic, the MMMS may not work with the iPod!

[Nutzoids]

Originally posted by Bengt77
How I would love you to be proven right in due time. I just don't believe it right now. Hopefully they can (re)gain the trust they (admittedly really do) deserve and build upon that to become a L.A.R.G.E. player O.U.T.T.H.E.R.E.

Gawd, how I hope that'll happen...

:(


Ok well lets look at this Giant push forward that Apple is doing... Shall we?

Before Apple was just fine with what they did. To a lot of people...And I mean A LOT...iTMS for Windows is going to be there first Apple experience...The same thing holds true for the iPod...Before if you were a Mac user there was tons of Microsoft products you could use...Apple is getting rid of most of them...Opting for Mac software. Now Apple is crossing over to the world of PCs.We (Apple and there users) are invading the Microsoft world...And you can tell there getting nervous!


:D

[SeaFox]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
I highly doubt MS would deliberately sabotage iTunes in any case. It would be more trouble than it's worth.

It would certainly fit into past character for MS. They've hobbled competitor's products in the past without any major repercussions except a finger wagging and "Now cut that out!" from the courts.

[greenstork]

Originally posted by QuiteSure


At that point, the Windows world will have their first Apple experience, which will far surpass the other experiences available. As witness to this experience, their first actual, first-hand view of Apple products and superior user experience, this vast unwashed mass of Windows users will begin to consider whether, just as the iTMS is more pleasurable to use than its Windows-based competition, the Apple computer experience is similarly superior to the Windows user experience.



This is exactly why it doesn't matter when iTMS for Windows comes out. It is far more important that Apple gets it right rather than being first.

Dell, and Buy.com and others in the future will follow suit but what will set Apple apart is the experience. For all those who griped that Apple should have been first, I say who cares. The competition would have followed either way. It's the great software, slection, and ease of use that will keep them coming back.

[LoopHoles]

Originally posted by tYNS
It has taken WAY too long to get the PC version of iTunes out now. Many alternatives have filled the void. It is basically going to be a struggle to get people to download there software and use it now. As a previous writer wrote, dell has desktop dominance and will surely bundle musicmatch music store software on their machines.

it's going to be no struggle to download PC iTunes for iPod owners.

Apple should release the PC iTMS and boom! right then and there drop the base iPod price to $199 for a 5GB iPod. don't know if HDDs that small are still being manufactured, though.

btw, has anyone checked out the musicmatch web site, yet? from the screenshots, their store is so amazingly similar to the iTMS with the blue background, the arrows, and the round silver buy buttons. still, that doesn't make it look as user-friendly for some reason. if i were designing an online music store, i'd copy it just as well.

[Analog Kid]

Originally posted by tychay
...
BTW, the fact that they are rebranding MusicMatch shows that unlike Apple, Dell is not leveraging their internet infrastructure to support digital downloads. Nor are they leveraging their supply chain advantages in producing the player. Nor is their any retail advantage beyond "bundling"--a big advantage for a big ticket item like a computer, but negligible for a consumer item like an MP3 player. While Dell's strategy is in keeping with their modus operandi, it is a much weaker offering than it appears because it doesn't play to their strengths and does nothing to overcome perceived Dell weaknesses: they have no previous experience in software; they do not develop any hardware but simply streamline hardware component assembly and bundling; they close themselves out to retailers through direct sale.


Exactly... This is a me-too offering, and hardly deserves the rancor that people are throwing at it...

I mean, may as well complain that Dell makes computers in a market where Apple makes them too...

The iPod is a sweet device-- it's no surprise that others-- Creative, Dell, whoever, would take some cues from what does well in the market.

The iPod has been largely unchanged from it's original release-- most likely because there's not much they can do to improve it at this point. Not surprising that if Apple can't figure out how to improve it that Creative wouldn't be able to think of anything either...

I'm kind of surprised that Dell is taking a step into the online music market-- it's pretty far from their core competences... I guess that's why they just re-branded another service.

I wonder if they talked to Apple about re-badging iTMS, or rebadging the iPod. I'd guess that Apple would refuse such a deal... Shame, because it would really boost Apple's volumes, but I think Apple is more interested in trying to establish their own presence...

Also interesting that a company so focused on buisness users would make such a huge step towards consumers... Maybe they see this as a way of establishing themselves as a consumer company as well.

Dell's doing nothing more than sticking their toe in the water at this point. They want to look at expanding their market image, and to do that they need their name on it. If they put their name on an iPod people would be much more upset.

Yes, this means Apple won't have this market to themselves. They'll have to compete, and settle for a market share rather than the whole market. My guess is they'll do what they've done in the past and produce a higher quality product targeted at a smaller share of the market and they'll go on living as a successful company with happy and loyal customers.

If WMA becomes a standard (god forbid), then iPod will start to support it-- or it will die. I'm sure MS would be happy to see their codecs running on whatever hardware is out there.

If the DRM is too restrictive, the market will die and the labels will continue to see their revenue diminish.

Or we'll all just look at each other and say "baaaaaa" while we wait for the labels to fleece us...

If no one else is willing to, then I'll be the one to wish Dell the best of luck in their new venture. The more, the merrier. Online music sales will become standard, MP3 players will be the new walkman, and now there's one more powerful voice telling the labels they're too tight and charging too much.

And when the Recording Industry Ass. of America gets up in front of Congress again to whine about how Internet distribution is killing their buisness, Dell will be standing with Jobs saying that any curtailment would kill theirs.

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by LimeLite
Apple's digital rights management rights management?

I'll be right back, gotta go use the ATM machine. :D

Correction: ATM telling machine...;)

[NicoMan]

Originally posted by j33pd0g
I don't think Gates will allow a windows version of iTunes. It'll be out for a half a day and then mysteriously it'll be pulled at the request of Microsoft. Back on topic: The dell DJ store will only be for DJ's, right? And it'll bite.
If Microsoft were to force iTunes for Windows out of the picture, I think it would again raise legal questions for Microsoft. You know, anti-competitve practice, abuse of dominant position, etc... I don't think Microsoft would want to do that just now.

[Edot]

Originally posted by iPost
You people are really naive if you think Apple was the first to think of the idea of an online music store. This was being talked about years ago during the dot-com era (I know, I was working at one such dot-com that was trying to do it), but no one was able to get the record labels to buy into it and license their content. Apple was the first to be able to do it, precisely because they have a small, self-contained market. The record labels were just testing the waters with Apple to see if they really wanted to do something like this. Once the tests showed that money could be made, they opened up their content to others like buymusic and Dell. It was the record labels that were holding this idea back... Don't get me wrong, Apple has a wonderful record of great innovations (and I'm a proud Mac user), but the online music store really can't be counted as such (neither can the iPod -- sorry, Rio gets the original innovation prize for a portable digital music player). In both cases, Apple was just implementing ideas that had already been around for years.

Are you really surprised that others are going to do this once the labels allow them to? People have been waiting years to get the permission to open sites like this.


I think people are confusing these two words.


From Dictionary.com


Invention

\In*ven"tion\, n. [L. inventio: cf. F. invention. See Invent.] 1. The act of finding out or inventing; contrivance or construction of that which has not before existed; as, the invention of logarithms; the invention of the art of printing.


Innovate

v : bring something new to an environment; "A new word processor was introduced" [syn: introduce]