Creating our own browser [Archive]

Geert

Apr 23, 2002, 10:18 AM

I don't know guys, but would it be hard to create our own MR browser?
a cocoa based browser, that works fast, looks nice, has all build in functions that the others have (so that you do not have to switch to IE for a plugin that only works with IE.

It will be some hard work I guess, but seen the fact htat most of us posting here are familiar with Apple and X. (So we know what a cool browser should look like at least)

Let's say that we would start such a project, and implement everthing all of us like. And making it the best browser yet, and then sell or give Apple our selfmade browser. (And certainly sell to wintel site making it buggy as IE is buggy to us :p)

I have to admit, i don't know how such a project is started, but love to give it a try, since all browser I came across did not fullfill my surfin needs.

Taft

Apr 23, 2002, 11:05 AM

Do you program at all??? Its not exactly a trivial task.

For a glimpse at how complicated it can be, take a look at the code for Chimera. This is a native interface that wraps a pre-existing rendering engine (Mozilla's engine, to be exact). So basically this browsers code does none of the rendering (which is basically the hardest part of a browser) and the code is still complex.

I will admit that I'd love to see it happen and I'd even take part in an attempt. But it is going to be a very hard process.

Taft

Geert

Apr 23, 2002, 11:38 AM

Yes indeed it will be hard to do such a thing, but nobody is rushing us, further would it be a great learning experience for all involved, and could perhaps lead to some unexpected stuff that be created.

But I would like to see as much comments as possible, pros, cons. We'll see where we end up.

Come on guys, start posting, this thread boosts your postcount!
general threads have been slowing down, and wouldn't it be great that while boosting our postcount we also could be "working" on something?

GeeYouEye

Apr 23, 2002, 12:08 PM

The real question is if anyone here knows how to program in Objective-C, which is what Cocoa is based on. I'd be glad to help, but I don't know that language.

D0ct0rteeth

Apr 23, 2002, 12:35 PM

I have some basic programming experience; (PHP, VB, Java and so on) but have no experience in anything like this...

glad to help in anyway...

C-

........................

Choppaface

Apr 23, 2002, 07:42 PM

as long as it parses webpages just like IE, cool

mac15

Apr 23, 2002, 07:46 PM

Thats would be hard but you could mess with the mozilla code to see what you can come up with

icetraxxg5

Apr 23, 2002, 08:03 PM

I will help! I do a lot of work in REALbasic/Java/WebObjects but never really ventured into cocoa/objective c because I thought it was a waste of time because only NeXtstep/OpenStep and MacOS X use it. But now I think I will try to learn it.

...If anyone wants todo something like this or some kind of other project please email me at icetraxxg5@comcast.net (mailto:icetraxxg5@comcast.net)

MacLuver23

Apr 23, 2002, 08:38 PM

:o You should make the browser color changable, I'd love to make IE's color change from blue to Key Lime! It will match my iBook! :) I would also love to change my System colors from Aqua or Graphite to Key Lime. Apple should give the system buttons and menus different colors, for all the old iMac and iBook users out there. Just my thoughts... :D

Durandal7

Apr 23, 2002, 08:40 PM

Hmm, Im going to have to agree and say that we start with Mozilla. At least that that way we don't have to start from scratch. I have some experience with Objective-C but I am certainly willing to learn more if we go ahead with this project. Just a thought, Macrumors is already one of the biggest mac forums now maybe it will be one of the biggest mac open source communities. We have a wide base of people with computing experience and a devotion to Apple. If we all cooperate we may turn out some exceptional programs.

jaykk

Apr 23, 2002, 09:26 PM

I wont mind learning Objective-C, since i have been programming in C/C++ so many years. I am learning WebObjects now. I should pick up a book on Cocoa next

sjs

Apr 23, 2002, 09:35 PM

mmmm...I love hot cocoa and I once wrote a term paper in college. Can I help?

GeeYouEye

Apr 24, 2002, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by MacLuver23
:o You should make the browser color changable, I'd love to make IE's color change from blue to Key Lime! It will match my iBook! :)

Umm.. you can...

Geert

Apr 24, 2002, 12:56 PM

let's see, so far most of you guys want to help. Great!
I've just ordered a couple of books on X, Appelscript, Cocoa.
I'm not familiar with c or C++, have good skills on visual etc, and seem to be a quick learner. So mozilla is our start then.

But how do we trade ideas quickly?
Make sure we don't do double work (eg someone working on flash plugin, and ending up 3 others are doing the same thing.)

Where do we start?

ps we'll implement all suggestions, so we'll make it a personal browser, every user can change the way he likes it.

MacLuver23

Apr 24, 2002, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by GeeYouEye

Umm.. you can...
You can!? Then please tell me how ( I want to make the buttons look like a key lime, but have an aqua liek effect, you know what I meen? (iBook238@mac.com):)

jelloshotsrule

Apr 24, 2002, 03:56 PM

macluver

go into ie. the view tab, then browser color...

mine has key lime as an option.

eyelikeart

Apr 24, 2002, 04:04 PM

what I want is a browser that allows me to completely cookies from websites I desginate....and to block out those stupid pop-up advertisements for casino b.s & whatnot... :rolleyes:

sparkleytone

Apr 24, 2002, 06:20 PM

if you start with mozilla, then whatever you create must be free.

afonso

Apr 24, 2002, 06:43 PM

are you actually aware of the HARD work this is going to take?

1. None of you as far as I can tell have much experience in Cocoa/ObjC.

2. I am guessing all of us here have most of our time occupied with work and plenty of other stuff...

Building a browser from scratch will take an enormous amount of time, specially considering what I mentioned above.

You have nooooooo idea...

It would be best to look at Mozilla to get a glimpse of what they do. Just please remember it's written in Carbon, not Cocoa, so it will look completely different when written in ObjC...

Chimera is evolving really rapidly... In my own personal opinion, support the author(s) for Chimera. That would be the wisest choice...

If you really want to compete with OmniWeb (Cocoa) and Chimera (Cocoa+/-), then you have an ENORMOUS task ahead of you...

------------------------------

Even so... yeah I do know C, C++, Java and bits of others... I do know Cocoa and ObjC, and I would be glad to help...

But... I am already starting a major project in Cocoa/ObjC that would take 99% of my time and patience, so I guess I wouldn't have much free time.
---------------------------------------------

Anyway, a nice old browser, just a browser, like what Cyberdog was centuries ago, would be just what I envision...

Too much bloated software laying around...

My 2 pence... ;)

Take care
Afonso

Gelfin

Apr 24, 2002, 07:12 PM

Yeah, most people I've seen here clearly don't write code for a living. You haven't the slightest idea of the magnitude of this task. It's kind of like deciding on a whim that you're leaving tomorrow on an expedition to the South Pole.

Objective C has some very strong points in its favor. The thing that works against it is that the syntax for the object oriented stuff is very unlike anything most C programmers are used to. It seems to be inspired largely by Smalltalk, and especially if you are entrenched in a C++ world (like I am), it's very hard to switch gears.

I would love to help on such a project if it weren't doomed (not to be negative or anything ;)), and if I wasn't already working 10+ hour days with a task queue already filled to bursting.

Besides, every single suggestion and idea I've seen here for a browser is already in progress in one form or another, and relatively very far along. OmniWeb is a pure Cocoa browser with a proper OS X interface, and it gets better with every release. Chimera is rapidly filling the "Cocoazilla" niche (and why they didn't call it that, I'll never understand). These are active projects. In OmniWeb's case, projects where people are actually paid to work on them. You aren't going to catch up to those guys, and they want their browser to be 100% compatible just as much as you do. It's not that they're lazy or incompetent or anything. The problem is that it's hard.

mmmdreg

Apr 25, 2002, 09:39 AM

How about we go steal some people from mozilla and chimera to help us ;)...anyway, I'm willing to be emotional support for all you unstable persons out there...when do we start?

Taft

Apr 25, 2002, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by Gelfin
Besides, every single suggestion and idea I've seen here for a browser is already in progress in one form or another, and relatively very far along. OmniWeb is a pure Cocoa browser with a proper OS X interface, and it gets better with every release. Chimera is rapidly filling the "Cocoazilla" niche (and why they didn't call it that, I'll never understand). These are active projects. In OmniWeb's case, projects where people are actually paid to work on them. You aren't going to catch up to those guys, and they want their browser to be 100% compatible just as much as you do. It's not that they're lazy or incompetent or anything. The problem is that it's hard.

For OmniWeb, I can say that they are honestly working hard and have a significant development team. For Chimera I'm not sure how many people and man-hours are being put into it.

I can't argue with the fact that this is a difficult task, but I don't see any reason not to try. An attempt could produce fruits that could be built into other browsers (assume you opensource the project). And for some people trying when the odds are against them is fun. Put me in that category.

Also, the syntax for Obj-C is most certainly different from C++ or Java style object syntax, but its actually easy to get used to. The syntax more closely resembles actual language and is really quite user friendly. When I learned it, I was feeling comfortable in the language after only a day or two of coding.

Taft

afonso

Apr 25, 2002, 10:05 AM

yes, objc is really easy to learn, BUT you must have an understanding about OO concepts beforehand and C programming experience...

otherwise, it just wont make any sense...

I still agree that it would be a fun side-project...

someone start up a webpage, to start deciding on basic functionality, basic GUI, and stuff like that...

:)

U guys are nuts... ok so am i...

later,
afonso

rainman::|:|

Apr 25, 2002, 02:28 PM

okay, i taught myself c++ and then promptly forgot most of it... and of course i can program f77 (lotta good that does me) but other than that i'm worthless. i would like to offer difficult and unnecessary feature suggestions, tho... thats one thing i'm good at :)

like... can we make a browser that ends world hunger or something?
hehe
seriously tho, someone needs to make a browser that disables popups and popunders, like eyelikeart said... but casinos? come on we all know we're talking about porn loops here... hehe ;)

i know Omniweb does it, but even configured to "only allow on link click" or whatever, there are still times it won't open a new window *when it's supposed to*... blah...

:)
pnw

Durandal7

Apr 25, 2002, 10:02 PM

Originally posted by afonso
someone start up a webpage, to start deciding on basic functionality, basic GUI, and stuff like that...

I'll start up a website. Begin psting some of the ideas we have here.

Durandal7

Apr 25, 2002, 10:52 PM

There I put a small website up at http://homepage.mac.com/asurace/index.htm

chmorley

Apr 25, 2002, 10:58 PM

isn't a reason not to try.

I have no time and can offer no help. As a matter of fact, I am not sure why I am posting, except to say that I deal with social/political issues that people say are "impossible" to solve. Sometimes they're right, but mostly for the wrong reasons (e.g., people get in the way because "no one does it this way" or support their own agendas rather than do what is most helpful). Mostly, though, they're wrong.

If you don't try, you will never know if it was possible or not. My bet is, none of you is so stupid as to think it will be a piece of cake. All of you know it will be a huge amount of work. So if you care about it enough to do it right, more power to you.

Chris

idkew

Apr 26, 2002, 12:28 AM

Originally posted by eyelikeart
what I want is a browser that allows me to completely cookies from websites I desginate....and to block out those stupid pop-up advertisements for casino b.s & whatnot... :rolleyes:

use omniweb and it will only popup when you click a link.

idkew

Apr 26, 2002, 12:31 AM

use omniweb and it will only popup when you click a link.

also- it will let you block cookies from user designated sites. very nice bowser, shareware. only lack is in javascript somewhat.

i use it as my primary browser now.:p

mmmdreg

Apr 26, 2002, 02:18 AM

Why not start working now to create a simple, working browser and when it works, we can start adding all the "extras" that we want...otherwise we're just going to have a bunch of ideas with no browser..

rainman::|:|

Apr 26, 2002, 02:56 AM

Originally posted by idkew

use omniweb and it will only popup when you click a link.

does that work right for you? my experience with omniweb, when set to function this way, is that some links you do click on don't work... it was rather annoying, because i liked being able to surpress popups...

:)
pnw

Nipsy

Apr 26, 2002, 06:19 AM

...not to rain on any parades here, but...

What you guys are talking about is a fairly enormous task.

I used to work for a browser maker (hint, it's not IE) before they were purchased by an ISP (hint, its a crappy ISP).

The move from our 3.0 to our 4.0 release was the result of over sixty people working for 16 months.

If you guys are serious about undertaking this sort of adventure, I would suggest that you get involved with the Mozilla project.

Chimera is what one determined guy can do to make Mozilla better.

If all of you actually have time to do this, working from Mozilla source can make this a viable project, working from scratch makes this a pipe dream.

mmmdreg

Apr 26, 2002, 06:22 AM

well we aren't exactly up to version 3.0 even are we? we have to get to 0.1a first...

Nipsy

Apr 26, 2002, 07:39 AM

Originally posted by mmmdreg
well we aren't exactly up to version 3.0 even are we? we have to get to 0.1a first...

One thing to consider, when version 1.0 of Netscape was written, it was called Mosaic, and it was written over several months by three guys (serious programmers).

When it was written, there were no graphics, no Flash, no JavaScript, no css, etc. Only text, and links.

It STILL took several months.

If you want this to be a success (something you can use with pride), you can:
a). Build off the foundation of Mozilla, and add to it
b). Get a warehouse full of engineers, and let them work for a months

If you just want to have fun doing some collaborative programming, you can probably piece together a crippled browser, which won't do anything new or special, over a year or so, from scratch.

A modern browser has at least 100 rule sets it has to adhere by (css1, css2, java, Flash, html rendering, url handling, dhtml, UI, text input, etc.), just to be a plain old browser.

Once you've accounted for those (no small feat), you need to begin addressing the features you want to add, with out breaking any of the existing functionality.

If your collective goal is to get together, and have fun doing a project, without expectation of ending up with a better browser, then more power to you.

If your goal is to create a product which is in some way better than the existing browsers, you will need to start with an existing codebase. Mozilla's is free...

Anyway, I don't really care either way, I'm just offering some advice that will save a lot of collective time & frustration, if indeed, a usable product is your goal.

mmmdreg

Apr 26, 2002, 07:52 AM

Originally posted by Nipsy

If you want this to be a success (something you can use with pride), you can:
a). Build off the foundation of Mozilla, and add to it
b). Get a warehouse full of engineers, and let them work for a months

Well let's get started...choice "a" seems to be the good option here since MR isn't exactly a "warehouse full of engineers"...we need better communication between each other still..but our advice can wait until the techs here come up with a simple browser...

Beej

Apr 26, 2002, 08:39 AM

I have ignored this post since it started because I feared it would be about, well, what it's about.

If you don't want to read negative comments that you've already read in this thread, skip to the next post.

You guys have no idea how much work this will be. I think there's been one person so far who's said they can program in Objective-C.

You guys have no idea how much work this will be.

You guys have no idea how much work this will be.

And, did I mention, you guys have no idea how much work this will be?

But, now I'll say what everyone else has said: if you actually start to do anything productive, I'll help.

And now I'll say what everyone else has also said: I can't program in Objective-C.

I'd put big money on us not ever being able to make a browser that can properly display www.macrumors.com. I'd love very much to be wrong.

Wait, I did say that you guys have no idea how much work this will be, didn't I?

afonso

Apr 26, 2002, 08:43 AM

you guys have NO idea how difficult this project is...

again?

ok...

you guys have NOOOOOOOO idea how difficult it will be...

;) just to continue from beej post...

anyway, if u really want to do this (why cant u just wait for chimera), then start-up with mozilla code...

if u actually understand what its written then i will be surprised ;)

take care,
afonso

Durandal7

Apr 26, 2002, 01:27 PM

I was under the impression that this would be based on Mozilla code and not made from scratch.

AlphaTech

Apr 26, 2002, 02:00 PM

Just wondering if the developer's cd that comes with OS X 10.1 (retail) has tools that will be, or could be, useful. I have said cd and am willing to share it (for those that don't already have it or access to a copy).

If anyone wants a copy, use the email feature from here to let me know. Also, I would be very interested in seeing what comes from this. To have a browser that combines the look/feel of ie, but has the stability that is native to OS X would be sweet. Personally, I don't care for the look of either netscape, or the browsers built on the same core. If it could be skinned better, and made more stable, THAT would be a worthy project.

How many here would willingly take part of a project like this, with the potential to take more then a little while (several months) but could yield the ultimate browser (at least for us Mac heads)???

Count me in.

Durandal7

Apr 26, 2002, 07:33 PM

10.1 DevCD has all sorts of programs that could come in handy in this project. The most useful one would be Project Builder but it also has various helpful tools (Icon Composer,Java Dev Tools,etc).

I would certainly be willing to put some time into this browser.

Beej

Apr 26, 2002, 08:18 PM

I've made a Mac Rumors browser!

The installation is a bit tricky, but for those of you who want a sneak preview of the product, here's how to install it:

You can skip step 1 if you already have OmniWeb in your Applications folder.

1. Download OmniWeb (direct download (http://www.omnigroup.com/ftp/pub/software/MacOSX/10.1/OmniWeb-4.1-beta-5-English.dmg)) and copy the "OmniWeb" application into /Applications.

2. Download this tiff file (save to disk (http://futuremechanix.com/mr/Splash.tiff)), and put it in your home directory

3. Open the Terminal (Applications/Utilities/Terminal)

4. Type: cp Splash.tiff /Applications/OmniWeb.app/Contents/Resources/

5. Open OmniWeb

So there you go... it wasn't hard to do after all!

Durandal7

Apr 26, 2002, 08:28 PM

When you said we had no idea how much work it would take, I guess you meant it would take a lot less then we thought.

Catfish_Man

Apr 26, 2002, 08:47 PM

...how about people try improving Mozilla, or better Chimera (Mozilla's crippled by being cross platform), instead of starting on their own project. I'm making a simple text only adventure game, and so far I've been working on it 45 minutes a day, 5 days a week, since the start of school. I still have a ton of things to add. However, for those people that insist on making their own, read on. Otherwise skip this next part.
<skip>
What exactly would we change? I'd be willing to put in a vote for Chimera, stripped down to a URL bar, back, forward, and stop buttons, and autocompleting URLs as you type (in other words, a browser that could view pages, and only view pages, but do it really really fast [this is basically what Chimera is doing, but I'm suggesting taking it a step further]).
</skip>
btw, anyone know how to get Omniweb to auto-open the music samples on amazon.com?

mmmdreg

Apr 26, 2002, 09:12 PM

aren't the music samples in Real format?

sjs

Apr 26, 2002, 09:40 PM

some are in Real, and of course we can't get those. there are lots of others we can get though.
have downloaded several free Alison Krauss songs from Amazon. Wow.

Taft

Apr 26, 2002, 10:37 PM

Originally posted by Beej
I've made a Mac Rumors browser!

The installation is a bit tricky, but for those of you who want a sneak preview of the product, here's how to install it:

You can skip step 1 if you already have OmniWeb in your Applications folder.

1. Download OmniWeb (direct download (http://www.omnigroup.com/ftp/pub/software/MacOSX/10.1/OmniWeb-4.1-beta-5-English.dmg)) and copy the "OmniWeb" application into /Applications.

2. Download this tiff file (save to disk (http://futuremechanix.com/mr/Splash.tiff)), and put it in your home directory

3. Open the Terminal (Applications/Utilities/Terminal)

4. Type: cp Splash.tiff /Applications/OmniWeb.app/Contents/Resources/

5. Open OmniWeb

So there you go... it wasn't hard to do after all!

Ha! You know its kinda weird, you're browser has the exact same functionality as OmniWeb. :rolleyes:

I've got one thing to say to all of you nay-sayers...you're killing my buzz, man.

It think I might have written this before, but by using Mozilla code, you really get a lot for free. All it would take is a few dedicated programmers with some knowhow of programming to get it running with Aqua. I've looked through the code for Chimera and it isn't all that complicated.

Also, a few of you are making the assumption that people here aren't at all familiar with programming or are incompetent. I, for one, am a programmer by profession and have designed and implemented many rather complicated projects. I have to imagine that others here also have experience.

While making a web browser is a rather complicated project, it is certainly no harder than a lot of the other projects out there. I think one of the reasons that there aren't more fully developed browsers out there is because it is simply not profitable to make them. There is only so much room in the browser market and IE and Netscape fill that room pretty fully.

From my experience and knowledge, I see no reason this task couldn't be tackled by some competent and dedicated programmers.

So who else out there is a programmer. Come on, admit it. Its not *that* embarrassing. ;)

Taft

Durandal7

Apr 26, 2002, 10:56 PM

I guess that this project is now officially Mozilla based since so many people seem to want it that way. That's the problem with open source, nothing is really official. I think I'll download the Mozilla source and start playing around with it.

Beej

Apr 27, 2002, 02:24 AM

Why are people still talking like we are going to make a web browser? I've already told you that I've made one!

...we just need to work on the installer. Oh yeah, and we also need to change it's name... ;)

Geert

Apr 27, 2002, 03:52 AM

Geert

Apr 27, 2002, 04:09 AM

Originally posted by asurace
I guess that this project is now officially Mozilla based since so many people seem to want it that way. That's the problem with open source, nothing is really official. I think I'll download the Mozilla source and start playing around with it.

Agree, Where can I download the source file, asurace?
I'll try to mess around in it as well:D
Although, hang on, are we talking about the same thing here?
...how about people try improving Mozilla, or better Chimera (Mozilla's crippled by being cross platform), instead of starting on their own project.
Is chimera same basically source code, or not, and where would I download the Chimera source code then if not.

It think I might have written this before, but by using Mozilla code, you really get a lot for free. All it would take is a few dedicated programmers with some knowhow of programming to get it running with Aqua. I've looked through the code for Chimera and it isn't all that complicated.

Also, a few of you are making the assumption that people here aren't at all familiar with programming or are incompetent. I, for one, am a programmer by profession and have designed and implemented many rather complicated projects. I have to imagine that others here also have experience.

While making a web browser is a rather complicated project, it is certainly no harder than a lot of the other projects out there. I think one of the reasons that there aren't more fully developed browsers out there is because it is simply not profitable to make them. There is only so much room in the browser market and IE and Netscape fill that room pretty fully.

From my experience and knowledge, I see no reason this task couldn't be tackled by some competent and dedicated programmers.

So who else out there is a programmer. Come on, admit it. Its not *that* embarrassing.

Taft

Thxs Taft.
OK, I must admit, I'm not a degreed programmer( I'm embarrassed now), I did some programming in basic, VB, pascal, and Applescript is mastered real quickly. Not familiar with others (that I know of of course, although if you count ms-dos,) So I think I got a good base.
But I'm want to start on some real programming, that's why I started the create a browser thread to get in touch with some other interested folks where I could share some thoughts, etc... with.
Seems to me some of you guys really dig such a project, right?
I think we should really go for it.
asap as somebody gives me location where those source codes can be downloaded, I'll start to do some "serious" work hahaha, I mean mess around.