APPLE is killing MOTOROLA!

[cikutek]

How can MOTOROLA compete with INTEL, when APPLE sells fewer computers in a year than INTEL-based PCs in a month (or maybe a week)?!?

Over 20 years ago when APPLE started, 68000 was hands down the best, most powerfull, most advanced CPU on the market! Why APPLE didn't capture 20-30% of the PC market? Don't tell me it's because they didn't have a good CPU. They had the BEST, FASTEST CPU in the world!!!

Do you really think that INTEL could afford $7 bln a year of R&D cost with sales like APPLE???
APPLE's total revenue is less than INTEL's R&D budget!!!
With APPLE sales of $5.4 bln last year what do you think MOTOROLA gets for their CPUs? $500 mln, maybe? Of that $500 mln how much can they use for R&D? $100-$200 mln?
!!!!!Last year INTEL's sales were $26.5 bln!!!!!!

It's a miracle that with such marginal computer maker as APPLE, MOTOROLA is still in the CPU business!
Well, it's actually because of CISCO, GM, Nortel and others that use PowerPC-based chips. APPLE alone with their <10% market share is no match to all INTEL-based PC makers.

[Skandranon]

Heh. You notice how no one has replied to your remark? Because no one cares what you think.

Take note.

[MacAztec]

Originally posted by Skandranon
Heh. You notice how no one has replied to your remark? Because no one cares what you think.

Take note.

True, True...

I think we have a new GoCyrus on board!

And to this guy, Apple failed because of their prices. If they didn't have....errrr whats his name...on board, there would have been no comptetetion in the late 80s early 90s.

Then, the PC was developed, and was a piece of ***** machine. People saw they were cheaper, and that was just the beginning....

[rainman::|:|]

whenever i see posts like this, i think of Dennis Leary's song, "He's an @sshole" hehe...

Pricing was a big no-no for Apple, but in my mind the biggest problem is that the little startup company was suddenly competing with IBM, which had been around 100 years prior, and made a fortune with typewriters... they had the means that Apple didn't to get their product to the masses...

:)
pnw

[AlphaTech]

"APPLE alone with their <10% market share is no match to all INTEL-based PC makers."

Them there are fighting words my friend.

How bad were the peecee makers doing just last year??? At the same time that they were closing retail locations, Apple was opening theirs. For how many years have the peecee world been saying Apple was on it's death bed?? Apple just ignored their 'predictions' (more like wet dreams) and just kept on going. Mac laptops, and desktops, have been showing up in both tv programs, ads and movies quiet a bit. Granted, many times the Apple is covered up, but anyone that has seen one in a store can recognize it.

Don't gauge a companies sucess by market share alone. For a small computer maker, Apple has impressive sales numbers, with more then enough captial to see it through some lean times. How many other people here bought new systems in the past two years or less?? How many plan to buy additional systems in the coming year??? How many Mac's have you owned over the past decade, and how happy have you been with them??? I can almost guarantee that more people that have/use Mac's are consistently pleased with them, and buy additional ones as soon as they can.

How many peecee's over 3-4 years old are in real use these days??? I would almost bet money that there are a higher percentage of older Mac's still in service over peecee's. How many people in here either have, or know someone with, a beige G3 or pre-G3 system that is still in active service??

I would be interested in hearing some feedback on that.

As for Apple killing motorola.... The way I see it, Apple is giving motorola steady income, who would turn down that???? No one with at least 1/2 a brain won't.

[AlphaTech]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
whenever i see posts like this, i think of Dennis Leary's song, "He's an @sshole" hehe...

I LOVE that song... Does anyone have it on cd??? How about on their computer??? That would be a funny shutdown item to have... have it play that song every time you go to shut off your computer :D

[rainman::|:|]

Originally posted by AlphaTech


I LOVE that song... Does anyone have it on cd??? How about on their computer??? That would be a funny shutdown item to have... have it play that song every time you go to shut off your computer :D

wasn't sure if anyone would know what i was talking about... well, off to Undernet to find it then :) they have everything in #mp3passion

pnw

[bonehead]

How many people in here either have, or know someone with, a beige G3 or pre-G3 system that is
still in active service??

I typed this on a 9500/200 which replaced my SE/30 four years ago. At work I use a 9600/300.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by AlphaTech
How many people in here either have, or know someone with, a beige G3 or pre-G3 system that is still in active service??

I would be interested in hearing some feedback on that.

We have a 7500 running a FileMaker database, another one in a conference room, and 3 beige G3s (desktop, not tower) floating around, one as an everyday workstation for my girlfriend (yes, we work together, and no, we didn't meet on the job). :D

[britboy]

Originally posted by AlphaTech
How many peecee's over 3-4 years old are in real use these days??? I would almost bet money that there are a higher percentage of older Mac's still in service over peecee's. How many people in here either have, or know someone with, a beige G3 or pre-G3 system that is still in active service??


I've got a 7600/133 back home in the UK, still in perfect working order. I've added an external 9GB hard drive, but other than that it's the same as the day it was bought. I love that machine, not least because it has a 21" monitor. That was just huge after coming from a dinky little powebook 140!

[D0ct0rteeth]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
...competing with IBM, which had been around 100 years prior, and made a fortune with typewriters...

actually paul IBM was founded in 1901 in Endicott NY as a Time Clock company.... not typewriters....

IBM has been making computers since WW2 (originally the size of a house)

But yes, apple was a better product... (and smaller)

C-

[Macmaniac]

I used a Performa until 6 months ago, apple stuff lasts along time! I see lots of PC out it the garbage they must be under 3 years old, macs are built to last.

[ftaok]

I do agree with cikutek, but his delivery is a little blunt.

This is what I've been saying all along, how can you expect Motorola (or IBM) to compete with Intel/AMD with their PPC development when the market for those chips is so small? While MOT has had lots of manufacturing problems, the performance gap (real or perceived) is a combination of blunders by both Motorola and Apple. If Apple were to sell more Macs, then Motorola would have more incentive to produce faster chips. But if Motorola would develop faster chips, then Apple could sell more Macs. Chicken and egg thing going here.

I think Apple is going in the right direction here by moving the consumer desktop line to G4s, thus giving Motorola a bigger slice of the PPC market. If the G5 is indeed a Motorola chip, then it would seem that Apple is giving the entire Mac market back to Motorola. They aren't stupid, Apple's not gonna hand over the keys to the future to Motorola unless they know that some good stuff will be coming out of Chicago.

Only time will tell.

[iGav]

Yet Intel with all that R&D budget, they still can't produce a decent ********* chip with it.........:p

[sparkleytone]

regardless of your fanaticism, he's got one of the most valid points I have seen on these boards in a very long time.

[mcrain]

Originally posted by sparkleytone
regardless of your fanaticism, he's got one of the most valid points I have seen on these boards in a very long time.

Ok, if it is such a valid point explain this to me:

1. Moto is a business,
2. IBM is a business,
3. Both make PPC based chips,
4. Both sell to Apple, and
5. Both companies are continuing their research and development of the PPC chips.

Why?

If it was such a bad idea and they were unable to compete, don't you think their shareholders would say something?

[Hemingray]

Like ftaok said... it's gotta start SOMEWHERE!

How can Apple reach more people when Moto supplies them with sub-standard chips?

Apple's computers rely completely on what Motorola puts out (it's the freakin' HEART of the thing). So the ball is in Motorola's court. Motorola's either got to have the motivation (which they obviously don't), or Apple has to move on. It's Motorola who's killing Apple... or Apple killing themselves because they keep holding out for Moto to deliver the goods.

[Backtothemac]

*****brain, or what ever your name is. Shut the **** up! Go away to flame again another day. Notice how the little p***y doesn't come back to face the wrath. No. He pops his head in, and gets all of us Mac users suited up in our flame retardant Kevlar body armour and then runs and hides like a little girl. Do yourself a favor. Go lock yourself in a closet.

[Taft]

Originally posted by ftaok
I do agree with cikutek, but his delivery is a little blunt.

This is what I've been saying all along, how can you expect Motorola (or IBM) to compete with Intel/AMD with their PPC development when the market for those chips is so small?
...
I think Apple is going in the right direction here by moving the consumer desktop line to G4s, thus giving Motorola a bigger slice of the PPC market.
...


The original poster answered his own d**n question. How do expect Motorola to compete with Intel??? Because Intel isn't Motorola's only competition and isn't the only market in which Moto competes. They have a huge stake in the embedded processor market. PPC technology is used in a huge variety of products and most of the troubles Moto is seeing right now is not related to a slowdown in the PC market its because of a slowdown in the embedded market.

I'm sure many of you know that a PPC chip is used in the Gamecube. Of course that processor is an IBM processor, but its an example of a high selling product using PPC outside of PCs. Also, routers and other networking equipment. From what I've seen, Apple sales don't represent the majority of Motorola's sales.

Everyone needs routers. Only 5% of the world owns Macs. Do the math.


The original post seems quite uninformed and is certainly flamebait.


Taft

[ftaok]

Originally posted by Taft


The original poster answered his own d**n question. How do expect Motorola to compete with Intel??? Because Intel isn't Motorola's only competition and isn't the only market in which Moto competes. They have a huge stake in the embedded processor market. PPC technology is used in a huge variety of products and most of the troubles Moto is seeing right now is not related to a slowdown in the PC market its because of a slowdown in the embedded market.

I'm sure many of you know that a PPC chip is used in the Gamecube. Of course that processor is an IBM processor, but its an example of a high selling product using PPC outside of PCs. Also, routers and other networking equipment. From what I've seen, Apple sales don't represent the majority of Motorola's sales.

Everyone needs routers. Only 5% of the world owns Macs. Do the math.

Uninformed post. Total flamebait.

Taft Hey Taft,

I am well aware that most of Motorola's PPC chips go into things other than Macs. Hell, I'm a shareholder in the company.

I'm not trying to bait anyone here. All that I'm saying is that maybe Motorola would be more motivated to produce faster PPCs for Apple if Apple could move more machines. Moving the consumer line to Motorola's chip is a step in the right direction (my opinion) in solidifying Motorola's attention. Right now, Motorola's G5s seemed to be destined for Cisco's gear. So Cisco will dictate what features are most important, not Apple. If Cisco's needs coincide with Apple's needs, then all the better, but if not, don't look for optimal G5s for Macs. Motorola has to go for the bigger market, and if that means routers, then that's the direction that they gotta take.

BTW, when I was referring to blunders by both Apple and Motorola, the Apple ones (I'm only listing the Apple ones since the Motorola ones are painfully obvious to all) that I'm referring to are a)dumping of the clone project and b)killing MOT stock back when the G4 tower was released.

a)When the Mac Clones were available, Motorola had many customers for the PPC (Apple, PowerComputing, UMAX?, and themselves). With this type of structure, there was a steady stream of business that was hungry for faster chips. When Steve came back, he killed that and pi$$ed MOT off. The story was that Motorola got rid of all MacOS machines and switched to Dells.

b)When MOT dropped the ball and couldn't produce G4s that ran faster than 450Mhz, Apple came out publicly bashed Motorola for messing up their quarter. MOT stock dropped around 20% in a little over a week. A little discretion could have been shown then.

Anyways, Apple and Motorola are rebuilding their ties now. Hopefully for both, the next generation of PPCs for Macs will be generations ahead of what we have now.

[ftaok]

Originally posted by Hemingray
Like ftaok said... it's gotta start SOMEWHERE!

How can Apple reach more people when Moto supplies them with sub-standard chips?

Apple's computers rely completely on what Motorola puts out (it's the freakin' HEART of the thing). So the ball is in Motorola's court. Motorola's either got to have the motivation (which they obviously don't), or Apple has to move on. It's Motorola who's killing Apple... or Apple killing themselves because they keep holding out for Moto to deliver the goods. hemingray,

Yeah, it's gotta start somewhere. And I think that Apple has shown their hand by moving the consumer line to Motorola.

As for the "sub-standard chip" comment, to my knowledge, Motorola aren't the ones who are designing the mobos. I'm no hardware expert, but don't you think the G4 would run better on a faster system bus? Maybe Motorola's designs don't allow for a faster bus, I don't know, but if that's the case, Apple should be pushing Motorola for faster bus speeds rather than raw clock speed.

And the sub-standard components don't start and end with the Motorola stuff. Apple is still bundling 16MB video cards with the "pro" laptops and 8MB ones on the "consumer" ones. Dell is offering 32MB and 64MB on most of their laptops. Motorola has no hand on this one at all.

My opinion - neither one is killing the other.

[Taft]

Originally posted by ftaok
Hey Taft,

I am well aware that most of Motorola's PPC chips go into things other than Macs. Hell, I'm a shareholder in the company.

I'm not trying to bait anyone here.

Sorry, I meant the original post was uninformed flamebait. You definitely had a more civilized, rational post. Sorry I didn't make it clearer. My bad.

And I agree Moto designs chips that are more tailored towards their major markets, ie routers and such. But I think thats an argument that helps show Apple really isn't controlling them enough to be hurting them. If Apple isn't really controlling the direction of PPC at Motorola, how can they be blamed for Moto's problems? I think Moto is cooking their own problems and if anything I think that Moto's focus on embedded markets is going to hurt Moto in the long run.

I really don't understand why Apple doesn't go with IBM. I mean, IBM is making their own PCs running Linux and seem to be producing faster chips that are more capable of PC tasks. Actually, are they still making those PCs? I haven't heard anything about them in a while. In any case, they seem to be in a better situation for making PC capable chips.

Again, sorry about the hostility. It really wasn't directed towards you.

Taft

[sparkleytone]

backtothemac that was the most useless POS post i have ever seen on these forums, surpassing by far mac15, gocyrus, and some others. no offense mac15, i like ya, just not when you post one word responses :P

Flame wars are all well and good, but only if the repartee is indeed intelligent.

[Shibby]

I have an original apple lisa at home running great was using it yesterday.

[ftaok]

Originally posted by Taft


Sorry, I meant the original post was uninformed flamebait. You definitely had a more civilized, rational post. Sorry I didn't make it clearer. My bad.

And I agree Moto designs chips that are more tailored towards their major markets, ie routers and such. But I think thats an argument that helps show Apple really isn't controlling them enough to be hurting them. If Apple isn't really controlling the direction of PPC at Motorola, how can they be blamed for Moto's problems? I think Moto is cooking their own problems and if anything I think that Moto's focus on embedded markets is going to hurt Moto in the long run.

I really don't understand why Apple doesn't go with IBM. I mean, IBM is making their own PCs running Linux and seem to be producing faster chips that are more capable of PC tasks. Actually, are they still making those PCs? I haven't heard anything about them in a while. In any case, they seem to be in a better situation for making PC capable chips.

Again, sorry about the hostility. It really wasn't directed towards you.

Taft No problem. I guess that we're just gonna disagree. I do agree that Apple's situation will in no way "kill" Motorola.

But the 2 companies are on their way to recovering past glory (my opinion). The move towards Motorola's chip (consumer G4s) is a step in the right direction. If Apple wants to get Motorola on the move, then they have to make themselves an important customer. And that is only generated with more orders for Motorola chips.

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by sparkleytone
backtothemac that was the most useless POS post i have ever seen on these forums, surpassing by far mac15, gocyrus, and some others. no offense mac15, i like ya, just not when you post one word responses :P

Flame wars are all well and good, but only if the repartee is indeed intelligent.

Oh, sorry, let me rephrase.
...In bad English accent...

Notice how the young lad comes into the forum and raises a rather unpopular opinion with little factual basis and then does not stand around to defend his opinion against the rebutal. Just my opinion here, but isn't it odd that the people who come in claiming that the house is on fire never defend their original statement. In addition to that, to lay blame at the buyer of a product instead of on the company that produces the product is pure poppycock.

...end English accent...

There is that better? I am not a zealot, but I cannot stand people like cikutek who post for no other reason than to start a flame war. Yes, my initial response will probably do the same, but there is a HUGE difference between an offensive flaming and a defensive flaming.

Oh, and sparkley, believe me I am not a slack-jaw like GoCyrus, and have no idea who Mac15 is, so please read my other posts in the forums before you compare me to a PC hugging zealot.

[GetSome681]

Originally posted by ftaok
hemingray,

Yeah, it's gotta start somewhere. And I think that Apple has shown their hand by moving the consumer line to Motorola.

As for the "sub-standard chip" comment, to my knowledge, Motorola aren't the ones who are designing the mobos. I'm no hardware expert, but don't you think the G4 would run better on a faster system bus? Maybe Motorola's designs don't allow for a faster bus, I don't know, but if that's the case, Apple should be pushing Motorola for faster bus speeds rather than raw clock speed.

And the sub-standard components don't start and end with the Motorola stuff. Apple is still bundling 16MB video cards with the "pro" laptops and 8MB ones on the "consumer" ones. Dell is offering 32MB and 64MB on most of their laptops. Motorola has no hand on this one at all.

My opinion - neither one is killing the other.

I was under the impression that there was a limitation to ddr, etc in the g4 itself. The new apollo's might have fixed that..but that was my impression of why ddr hasn't been in the mac yet. The original poster is correct though. He's not necessarily saying that Motorola is trying to kill apple, nor are they not trying to produce better chips. But rather, they cannot reach an end that surpasses their means. Developing new chip technologies is expensive, as must testing is involved, and usuaully fabrication advances often require new machines, which themselves cost a fortune. Obviously Intel has more $$ to throw around in developing more technologies and chips than Motorola does. It's not an issue of Motorola not trying, or not caring, b/c obviously they woudln't be making PPC chips if they weren't making money off them, or apple. The poster is just saying that although Motorola has had their screw ups, we can't totally blame them for their lack of tech advancement, as they aren't and can't spend more money on R&D than they bring in, and that therefore limits them. I do agree with a lot of other people as well though, in that Motorola seems much more efficient in their approach than does Intel, and hopefully we will see some great things from the APPL-MOT camp. I for one am waiting with money in hand!! :p

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by GetSome681
I was under the impression that there was a limitation to ddr, etc in the g4 itself. The new apollo's might have fixed that..but that was my impression of why ddr hasn't been in the mac yet....

That is correct. The CPU must support the higher front side bus speed (FSB) of DDR. So does the mobo.

For all we know, the current PPCs might support it already, but without a mobo that accects the DIMMs and runs them at proper speed, we'll never know.

[sjs]

Well, I think its safe to say Cikutek's second post may have been his last...

Unless he enjoys this stuff and WAS in fact baiting you guys...

In which case you fell for it. What does that say about YOU?

From a business standpoint his case is not perfect, but on principle he has got it just about right!

Which leads us inevitably to this conclusion:

Either:

a) Steve knows he is on a sinking ship (motorola falling ever further behind), but there is nothing he can do about it.

OR:

b) Steve knows it looks bad now, but he has a PLAN , knows what's in the pipeline of new products (chips, RAM, mobos, etc), knows where OSX is headed, and is going to pull a rabbit out of his hat. Meaning that sometime in the next year its all going to come together, OSX and hardware, and suddenly we are going to be right back up to SPEED with wintel. And a better user experience...and of course better design.

I am betting on the latter. How about you?

[Backtothemac]

sjs,
I agree with the later. He is way to smart, and has way to much self respect to go down on a sinking ship. Hell, the ship isn't even taking on water yet. What everyone is forgetting is that Apples Market share for the last quarter was 8%! That is the first sign of a turn around, and it is only going to get better.

--
Official Assistant to the Buck Private of the anti-zealot campaign.

[sjs]

Of course, I am referring to Motorola as the possibly sinking ship, not Apple.

It does look like Moto is sinking, and I wouldn't invest my money in their company, but the fact that Steve is putting his business in their hands seems to indicate that he KNOWS something.

[Backtothemac]

Oh, my God, this just came to me. Can't Apple buy Motorolla's PPC unit for like 500 million or something like that? Imagine if Apple and AMD bought Motorolla's interests in the PPC, and then teamed together to produce the chips. AMD has the ability to crank out some amazing chips as we have seen on the other side of the fence. Man that would just friggin rock.


--
Assistant Buck Private of the anti-zealot campaign.

[mc68k]

Originally posted by AlphaTech
How many people in here either have, or know someone with, a beige G3 or pre-G3 system that is still in active service??

I would be interested in hearing some feedback on that.

I bought my S900 (case/mobo/ps) last summer for the express purpose of souping it up and running OS X on it. I like a good challenge. I could have bought a new system, but where's the fun in that?

[mc68k]

Back to the original topic, Motorola is diverse therefore Apple could not kill the whole company— if anything just the semi-conductor division.

Moto has had mass layoffs recently in all divsions, so they might be in trouble in more areas than one...

[Taft]

Originally posted by Taft

...
And I agree Moto designs chips that are more tailored towards their major markets, ie routers and such. But I think thats an argument that helps show Apple really isn't controlling them enough to be hurting them. If Apple isn't really controlling the direction of PPC at Motorola, how can they be blamed for Moto's problems? I think Moto is cooking their own problems and if anything I think that Moto's focus on embedded markets is going to hurt Moto in the long run.
...


Jeeze!! I'm an idiot today! What I meant to say was:

I think Moto is cooking their own problems and if anything I think that Moto's focus on embedded markets is going to hurt Apple in the long run.

Thats what you get when you try to work and post at the same time.

Taft