iTunes Canada... Soon [Archive]

NavyIntel007

Oct 20, 2003, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by danbirchall
Rollout in Europe will make it available to a nice big population (although since there are licensing issues for each country, I don't know whether they'll be able to roll it out to all of Europe at once), but given that the population of Canada (http://www.statcan.ca/english/edu/clock/population.htm) is only a small fraction of the U.S. population (http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/popclock), I don't think the Canadian rollout will have much of an impact.

Canada has essentially 10% the population of the United States. It's fair to say that Canada would also have 10% of the US sales of iTMS. If you figure sales to remain steady for the week, iTunes should pick up 2 million downloads by Thursday. 10% of that is 200,000 songs a week. That doesn't sound like a lot but that's 10.4 million songs over a year.

The question is, will there be a Canadian iTMS or will they just be allowed access to the current store? Will there be a french translation of the iTMS for people in Quebec? Will songs be priced $.99 CAD or in the US conversion?

Personally, I say keep the store uniform, at least for North America. Only charge the canadians $.99 CAD because if you do USD prices, most albums are worth buying at a store. iTMS North America should have different language settings (French, English, Spanish).

rodnarms

Oct 20, 2003, 01:16 PM

I have e-mailed the CRIA, Canada's RIAA and received a response.

"Dear Mr. Armstrong,

I'm not aware of iTunes' business plans for the introduction of their service in Canada but I can tell you that they haven't contacted us yet . I imagine they'll be in touch some time in the near future, however, now that we've got the licensing framework in place.

We'll publish any new news of iTunes' introduction at our website so please continue to visit.

Regards,

Jennifer Hardy
Manager of Administration
Canadian Recording Industry Association"

That means there is no indication as of yet that Apple is dealing with the industry - only the artists.

Steamboatwillie

Oct 20, 2003, 01:23 PM

Image the current iPod ads with Bob & Doug McKenzie + Geddy Lee singing "Take off to the great white north"

Way to go eh! ;)

NavyIntel007

Oct 20, 2003, 01:34 PM

Maybe I can finally buy the "Men With Brooms" soundtrack.

:D :cool:

tfriesen

Oct 20, 2003, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by Totalshock
I hadn't thought about that, but you bring up a good point. I wonder for how long the whole of Canada will be ex-communicated from all Apple products for this?

You mean we're not already (still)?!?

MacsRgr8

Oct 20, 2003, 02:20 PM

Why would someone rate this as "negative"?.. 2 to date :confused:

DeusOmnis

Oct 20, 2003, 02:20 PM

Europeans and Canadians dont even have computers, what's the big deal about?

DeusOmnis

Oct 20, 2003, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by MacsRgr8
Why would someone rate this as "negative"?.. 2 to date :confused:

Although I didnt rate it as a negative, the second group wasnt even contacted yet by apple, although i'm not sure how much that matters (they might just follow through with whatever the contacted group does).

dbasskin

Oct 20, 2003, 02:34 PM

Well, it's certainly nice to be noticed. Just a couple of clarifications:

First, CMRRA is a licensing agency, not an "association". I was on the phone to Apple the day of the IMS launch last April, seeking for a meeting to discuss licensing the service to do business in Canada. We regard IMS as one of the best-designed and most exciting online music distribution services ever created, and we'd be very excited to see it in the Canadian marketplace. At the time, Apple didn't want to meet with us. It's now clear that they were putting their efforts into the Windows version, and didn't want to expand to any further territories until they could do so on both the Mac and PC platforms, which seems to me to be a sound business decision.

We're looking forward to a rapid and mutually beneficial negotiation with Apple so that IMS can open in Canada as quickly as possible. Our company represents music publishers (and the songwriters they represent) and we will be licensing Apple in order to authorize them to make and sell reproductions of our clients' songs. Apple will make separate arrangements with the record labels for the use of their recordings. Once all the contracts are in place, I suspect that Apple will waste little time in opening IMS in Canada. Certainly it's full speed ahead as far as we're concerned.

If you have further questions on this subject, I invite you to visit our site and post a question in the "Ask Us A Question" section. You'll receive a prompt response.

David A. Basskin
President
CMRRA Ltd.
Toronto, Canada

BlueDjinn

Oct 20, 2003, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by dbasskin If you have further questions on this subject, I invite you to visit our site and post a question in the "Ask Us A Question" section. You'll receive a prompt response.

David A. Basskin
President
CMRRA Ltd.
Toronto, Canada

Wow, very nice to hear from you directly, Mr. Basskin!

I did have one question, which I'm posting here instead of writing directly to you because frankly, it's more idle curiousity than "official business."

Basically, someone else pointed out that PureTracks managed to get up & running (well, sort of; I understand they're having massive bandwidth issues already) in Canada with what I presume are similar licensing agreements to the iTunes store. I was just wondering if they were able to cut through the paperwork more easily due to being *based* in Canada, or what? I realize you may not be at liberty to discuss these details, but would be interested in hearing whatever you are able to discuss.

Gabriel

Oct 20, 2003, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by dbasskin
Well, it's certainly nice to be noticed. Just a couple of clarifications:

First, CMRRA is a licensing agency, not an "association". I was on the phone to Apple the day of the IMS launch last April, seeking for a meeting to discuss licensing the service to do business in Canada. We regard IMS as one of the best-designed and most exciting online music distribution services ever created, and we'd be very excited to see it in the Canadian marketplace. At the time, Apple didn't want to meet with us. It's now clear that they were putting their efforts into the Windows version, and didn't want to expand to any further territories until they could do so on both the Mac and PC platforms, which seems to me to be a sound business decision.

We're looking forward to a rapid and mutually beneficial negotiation with Apple so that IMS can open in Canada as quickly as possible. Our company represents music publishers (and the songwriters they represent) and we will be licensing Apple in order to authorize them to make and sell reproductions of our clients' songs. Apple will make separate arrangements with the record labels for the use of their recordings. Once all the contracts are in place, I suspect that Apple will waste little time in opening IMS in Canada. Certainly it's full speed ahead as far as we're concerned.

If you have further questions on this subject, I invite you to visit our site and post a question in the "Ask Us A Question" section. You'll receive a prompt response.

David A. Basskin
President
CMRRA Ltd.
Toronto, Canada

Wow! Try to get a response like that out of the RIAA (yes I know the two organizations don't do the same thing). Maybe Michael Moore was right about Canada.

I'm curious: does Apple Canada not use NDAs? I'm amazed that you are able to talk so freely about your discussions with Apple, in the US you have to completely sign away your right to talk if you want to do business with apple in any way. (other than buying their stuff of course)

BlueDjinn

Oct 20, 2003, 02:56 PM

Actually, it occurs to me that nothing that Mr. Baskkin has said is really vital--at no time has he revealed any launch dates, specific artist names, etc., so I can't imagine that anyone at Apple would be too bent out of shape about this.

dbasskin

Oct 20, 2003, 02:56 PM

As I don't speak for Puretracks, you'll have to take up your questions directly with them regarding bandwidth or other operating issues.

CMRRA is committed to a level playing field. We don't, and won't, play favourites in the licensing of online services, just as we have always made mechancial licenses available on standard terms and conditions to all record labels doing business in Canada. The answer to your question is very simple: Apple refrained, until very recently, from licensing discussions with us, for their own reasons. It's not up to me to question or comment on those reaosns, save to say, once again, that we look forward to their launch in Canada. Puretracks wanted to be in business in Canada and actively pursued a licensing deal, along with other services. There's no great mystery to all this.

As for retail pricing issues, again, you'll have to take that up with Puretracks.

David A. Basskin
President
CMRRA Ltd.
Toronto, Canada

Mr.Hey

Oct 20, 2003, 02:59 PM

coolfactor

Oct 20, 2003, 03:03 PM

I feel honoured to have you participate on this board. I feel proud to be a Canadian.

arn

Oct 20, 2003, 03:03 PM

Thanks for the additional information Mr. Basskin.

So it appears the CMRRA represents individuals and "independent" artists, while the Labels likely handle their own licensing. [edit: apparently, my perception was mistaken, see Mr Basskin's response below]

Anyhow, it's great news that Apple is actively pursuing non-U.S. licensing.

arn

T.Rex

Oct 20, 2003, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by NavyIntel007
Canada has essentially 10% the population of the United States. It's fair to say that Canada would also have 10% of the US sales of iTMS.

It might even be higher than 10% of the US sales, since some estimates peg the percentage of people in Canada accessing the internet through broadband connections as high as 64%, compared to only 37% in the US.

I just hope that the songs are priced at $0.99 Canadian, otherwise it simply will not be competetive as our cd prices are significantly lower than they are in the US, and the gap between the US and Canadian currencies only seems to be getting smaller as of late. (the Canadian dollar having gained 20% in value this past year).

Raid

Oct 20, 2003, 03:23 PM

It's about time! Man now if they will only let us know when to expect an Apple store....

dbasskin

Oct 20, 2003, 03:24 PM

Almost every recording consists of two works, each of which is protected by copyright: the song and the recording. In order to legally sell downloads of recordings, the seller must have the permission of the owner of the song (the "music publisher") and the owner of the recording (typically the record company).

CMRRA is a licensing agency which represents the vast majority of music publishers doing business in Canada. Our clients range from the largest multinational companies to small independent songwriters who control their own publishing. On their behalf, we negotiate agreements for the licensing of their songs. Traditionally, these agreements have been negotiated with record companies. Now, with the introduction of legal online distribution services, we are negotiating agreements with such companies.

We have presently entered into agreements with MusicNet, Napster (formerly pressplay) and Puretracks, and expect to enter into many more agreements soon, including one with Apple respecting IMS. We strive to achieve a level playing field in the licensing of all services. We have nothing to do with retail pricing. As should be obvious, the scope of our activity is limited to Canadian distribution.

The online services must deal separately with the record labels from which they want to license master recordings. They deal with us for the songs. And, hopefully, a new marketplace will thrive.

David A. Basskin
President
CMRRA Ltd.
Toronto, Canada

eric67

Oct 20, 2003, 03:31 PM

Hello,

Few days ago I was posting on this forum anews reported by a french PC-users web site, related to AOL digital radio on teh web, as well as iTMS-like pay-to-download music online store.
not before 2004
_____________________________________________
quote:

definitely. A french web site (http://www.clubic.com/n/n10189.html) reports that AOL is planing to launch a "iTMS"-like system during the second semester 2004
next week AOL will launch in UK a digital radio, but nothiing related to iTMS.
_____________________________________________

OK, now that we know that at least in the US there is a collaboration between Apple and AOL, I would imagine that the AOL roadmap pointing to middle of 2004 for its music download service, could actually be together with Apple....
I see it very likely. It is a good point for Apple, having a partner as AOL, is definitly a good point for negociating licence agreement with different Author/singer representative/organization in Europe.
In addition, Apple does not have to get them all on board immediately at the launch of iTMS Europe...they will anyway join under the pressure later on...
Apple only has to pay attention to diversity and choice for the different songs on iTMS. Are there examples of independent singers/band who directly licenced or signed a contract with iTMS??

Raid

Oct 20, 2003, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by dbasskin
Now, with the introduction of legal online distribution services, we are negotiating agreements with such companies.

We have presently entered into agreements with MusicNet, Napster (formerly pressplay) and Puretracks, and expect to enter into many more agreements soon, including one with Apple respecting IMS. We strive to achieve a level playing field in the licensing of all services.

Thanks for your quick responses Mr. Basskin. Does your statement imply that there is an existing legal framework for Apple to base it's agreement with the CMRRA on? If so, can you comment on how long negotiations could take?

dbasskin

Oct 20, 2003, 03:39 PM

We are presently in discussions with Apple and look forward to the speedy conclusion of a deal that will allow IMS to launch in Canada. I can't provide further information on the details of what is, in essence, the negotiation of a private business arrangement.

As to how long the negotiation will take, it's impossible to make predictions in this area. We've only just begun our discussions with Apple, and we hope for the best.

David A. Basskin
President
CMRRA Ltd.
Toronto, Canada

eric67

Oct 20, 2003, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by T.Rex
I just hope that the songs are priced at $0.99 Canadian, otherwise it simply will not be competetive as our cd prices are significantly lower than they are in the US, and the gap between the US and Canadian currencies only seems to be getting smaller as of late. (the Canadian dollar having gained 20% in value this past year).

Well here start a little problem....why should it be cheaper for you in Canada than in the US?? I do understand the point regarding the currency gap between US and Canadian dollar, but this will always change from time to time (up or down) and I doubt that the price of an iTMS music track would be indexed on the Canadian dollar change vs. US dollar....
I am leaving in Europe, when the Euro was created, it was around 1.12 US$ = 1 Euro, then Euro was down to 0.90US$=1 Euro, and today you need close to 1.2US$ = 1 Euro, so if you look at the variation, (nearly 30% between the lowest and highest rate), would you expect that the price of a song will vary??
I bet that the price will be 0.99 Can$ and 0.99Euro; it will of course be a good deal for Apple, but it is also possible that the licencing agreement on this side of the atlantic will be more in favor of the record companies.

martijnvandijk

Oct 20, 2003, 03:48 PM

as all the deals are made on a country by country basis with copyright authorities, I strongly doubt wether there will be such a thing as iTMS for Europe. I think it is much more likely that Apple will roll it out as it becomes possible per country

at least I hope so

MacsRgr8

Oct 20, 2003, 03:50 PM

Same feelings... UK + Ireland first. Then France. Then Germany. We'll see about the rest...

NavyIntel007

Oct 20, 2003, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by eric67
Well here start a little problem....why should it be cheaper for you in Canada than in the US?? I do understand the point regarding the currency gap between US and Canadian dollar, but this will always change from time to time (up or down) and I doubt that the price of an iTMS music track would be indexed on the Canadian dollar change vs. US dollar....
I am leaving in Europe, when the Euro was created, it was around 1.12 US$ = 1 Euro, then Euro was down to 0.90US$=1 Euro, and today you need close to 1.2US$ = 1 Euro, so if you look at the variation, (nearly 30% between the lowest and highest rate), would you expect that the price of a song will vary??
I bet that the price will be 0.99 Can$ and 0.99Euro; it will of course be a good deal for Apple, but it is also possible that the licencing agreement on this side of the atlantic will be more in favor of the record companies.

For starters CDs in canada are usually no more than $13. So having anything more than $.99 a song would not make money. In canada they don't make up employee pay on the american dollar. So a canadian making $9/hour is doing the same amount of work as a US employee making $9/hour and yet the money is not worth the same.

Are we to say that Canadians don't work as hard as people in the US? Absolutely not, that's obsurd.

The difference between $.99 CAD and $.99 USD is small. It's not as if the artists are making any more money on CDs in canada when clearly the CD prices in canada are sometimes half (with currency conversion) of what they cost in the States.

ClimbingTheLog

Oct 20, 2003, 04:09 PM

Wow - I can't believe how cordial and accommodating Mr. Basskin has been. His US counterparts would have filed suit against MacRumors to have the site shut down for disseminating trade secrets.

I guess cooler weather makes for cooler heads up North. Of course, since there hasn't been a perpetual heatwave in DC maybe that theory isn't entirely true.

dweebert

Oct 20, 2003, 04:21 PM

BlueDjinn

Oct 20, 2003, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by dbasskin
As I don't speak for Puretracks, you'll have to take up your questions directly with them regarding bandwidth or other operating issues.

CMRRA is committed to a level playing field. We don't, and won't, play favourites in the licensing of online services...Puretracks wanted to be in business in Canada and actively pursued a licensing deal, along with other services. There's no great mystery to all this.

(nod) Thank you, again, for your candor and quick response!

My apologies--I didn't mean to imply that anything "shady" was going on with PureTracks; I was honestly curious whether there was simply some sort of a legitimate "hold time" for foreign companies that native (Canadian-based) companies didn't have to go through, or whatever. As you explained, evidently it was simply a matter of priorities for Apple--first worry about the Windows version, then start focusing on other countries, which is what is obviously happening now.

We appreciate your willingness to discuss these matters in such detail, and look forward to seeing the iTMS brought to Canada and other nations--for both Mac and Windows! (and, who knows, Linux at some point as well?)

Oct 20, 2003, 05:34 PM

i want the euro itms !!! don't want to wait until spring ... hmmm ... at all, how important is the european market for apple, they lost marketshare here ...though in switzerland they have around 8% !!!
.a

nek

Oct 20, 2003, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by Totalshock
Hmmmm.... and just when it seemed the company had forgiven and forgot over that whole spec leak by (Canadian company) ATi....
I think it was also the Canadian version of Time magazine that leaked info on the original iMac the day before it was introduced. :D

As far as the iTMS in Canada is concerned, it seems that we have a better arrangement in licencing songs. If the owner of the song negotiates through CMRRA with Apple separately from Apple's negiations with the record labels, then an independent artist could simply have their song professionally recorded and cut out the middle man (record labels) for online distribution.

imtechr

Oct 20, 2003, 10:26 PM

I think its great that we can get an answer right from the guy in charge! Hopefully we'll see this soon its killing us canadians to wait! .99 is a lot nicer than 1.29 or 1.49 especially with 5000 songs plus.

danbirchall

Oct 21, 2003, 12:52 AM

Originally posted by NavyIntel007
The question is, will there be a Canadian iTMS or will they just be allowed access to the current store? Will there be a french translation of the iTMS for people in Quebec? Will songs be priced $.99 CAD or in the US conversion?

My bet is that it'll be the current store; they just have to have the technology in place to verify and accept credit cards issued by Canadian banks.

(The systems that do verification of U.S. credit cards don't usually handle ones from other countries.)

Of course... I'd hazard a guess that Apple already has that technology in place, since I haven't heard much wailing and gnashing of teeth from northern friends about being unable to shop at the Apple store on-line.

In fact, I'd suspect that Apple has the credit-handling bits in place for Japan, Australia, and most of Europe as well, at the very least.

So the holdup really is licensing (and possibly that patent, in Europe) -- once that's dealt with, they should be able to just 1) tweak the credit card signup page to handle different address formats for different regions, and 2) rule the world. There is no step three. :D

danbirchall

Oct 21, 2003, 01:01 AM

Originally posted by dbasskin
Almost every recording consists of two works, each of which is protected by copyright: the song and the recording. In order to legally sell downloads of recordings, the seller must have the permission of the owner of the song (the "music publisher") and the owner of the recording (typically the record company).

CMRRA is a licensing agency which represents the vast majority of music publishers doing business in Canada.

For those who don't know the music biz, the CMRRA is roughly analagous to BMI (http://www.bmi.com/) (Broadcast Music, Inc.) or ASCAP (http://www.ascap.com/) (The American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers) here in the U.S.

They're still concerned with folks getting their royalty checks, but since the song owner/music publisher is often the person (or people) who wrote the song, this is entirely different from the RIAA, which is concerned with making sure the labels get theirs - CMRRA, BMI and ASCAP end up making sure artists and people like that get theirs. :)

dbasskin

Oct 21, 2003, 01:10 AM

Actually, the US equivalent of CMRRA (http://www.cmrra.ca) is the Harry Fox Agency (http://www.harryfox.org). The Canadian equivalent of ASCAP (http://www.ascap.com) and BMI (http://www.bmi.com) is SOCAN (http://www.socan.ca). All these organizations represent songwriters and music publishers but for different purposes: CMRRA and HFA license the reproduction right in songs in Canada and the USA, respectively, while SOCAN licenses the performing right in music in Canada, and ASCAP and BMI do so in the US.

Complicated? Well ... yes. But so are computers. I strongly recommend you visit our web site for the full story on CMRRA. We're always happy to answer questions about our work. Just post a question on our site and you'll get a prompt response - usually from me!

David A. Basskin
President
CMRRA Ltd.
Toronto, Canada

LethalWolfe

Oct 21, 2003, 01:10 AM

Originally posted by danbirchall
For those who don't know the music biz, the CMRRA is roughly analagous to BMI (http://www.bmi.com/) (Broadcast Music, Inc.) or ASCAP (http://www.ascap.com/) (The American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers) here in the U.S.

They're still concerned with folks getting their royalty checks, but since the song owner/music publisher is often the person (or people) who wrote the song, this is entirely different from the RIAA, which is concerned with making sure the labels get theirs - CMRRA, BMI and ASCAP end up making sure artists and people like that get theirs. :)

Nicely timed posted, I was about to ask if the CMRRA was like ASCAP/BMI. :)

Mr. Basskin, thank you very much for taking time out, repeatedly, to answer Q's and educate us a bit as to the iTMS Canada situation. I know it's something many of us, especially Canadian Mac users, have been wondering about since iTMS was first announce.

Lethal

EDIT: I guess I should thank you, Mr. Basskin, for clearing up the ASCAP/BMI thing and thank danbirchall for attempting to clear it up. :D

Phil Of Mac

Oct 21, 2003, 01:15 AM

How do we know dbasskin isn't just an impostor? You'd think that Mr. Basskin would be a very busy man...

Just kidding :)

florio

Oct 21, 2003, 01:22 AM

I am also a bit sceptical as to Mr Basskins authenticity. Why we he come out to answer questions? Doesn't make sense. Maybe we should ask him a few questions about Canada...

Anyway, as a Canadian...I have to agree with the pricing strategy. They have to be .99CDN. We earn Canadian Dollars here and a dollar is a dollar, no matter where you earn it. Most Canadians will mot pay 1.49 for a song when most new release CD's are $13 dollars at A&B, Wal-Mart, Future Shop or even the Mom and Pop shops.

Flo

florio

Oct 21, 2003, 01:25 AM

In addition to my above post go to www.futureshop.ca

You can see that CD prices for new release CD's are much cheaper than in US dollars, which is the exact opposite for most other imports.

Flo

RStone

Oct 21, 2003, 01:52 AM

As a Canadian, and one who has bought many CD's over time, I must say that I've honestly never seen a $13.99 new release until now. Normally, when you walk into your local CD shop (HMV, Music World...the big ones), if you're lucky you'll get away with $16.99 or so I find. $18.99 is very common, and many sell for $20+ (most of the ones I take interest in when I'm browsing anyways)

The cheaper prices I think has to do with Universal dropping CD prices....or maybe it's just me. I dunno. Either way, I will still pay $0.99 a song even if I can get a full CD for $13. Most of the time, I don't want the whole album anyways, just those few good tunes on there.

I hope we get the iTMS soon...listening to the previews is fun and all, but it'd be nice to click the buy button sometime :D

EDIT: Almost forgot. I live in Ontario, where the sales tax adds up to 15%. So even if I can get a CD for $13, it ends up being around $15, etc.

florio

Oct 21, 2003, 01:56 AM

Rstone...

Where are you from...I live in Vancouver and from what I heard, we have the cheapest prices in Canada.

Flo

dbasskin

Oct 21, 2003, 01:56 AM

... but nobody ever called me imaginary. I'm quite real, I can assure you. I'll be the first to agree that most music industry executives don't deal with the public directly. It's their loss.

I'm not most music industry executives, and CMRRA isn't your typical industry organization. See our site (http://www.cmrra.ca) for more information.

David A. Basskin
President
CMRRA Ltd.
Toronto, Canada

eric67

Oct 21, 2003, 02:59 AM

Originally posted by NavyIntel007
For starters CDs in canada are usually no more than $13. So having anything more than $.99 a song would not make money. In canada they don't make up employee pay on the american dollar. So a canadian making $9/hour is doing the same amount of work as a US employee making $9/hour and yet the money is not worth the same.

Are we to say that Canadians don't work as hard as people in the US? Absolutely not, that's obsurd.

The difference between $.99 CAD and $.99 USD is small. It's not as if the artists are making any more money on CDs in canada when clearly the CD prices in canada are sometimes half (with currency conversion) of what they cost in the States.
I think there is a little misunderstanding. It is obvious that the price/track can not be higher than the average CD price...other wise it is not competitive, what I wanted to point out was the potential problem with iTMS in different countries...
clearly there will be a problem once iTMS will be spread overdifferent contries...except if Apple does a country-localized iTMS...otherwise, I will probably by music on iTMS canada, and not in Europe...I do understand your point concerning price/track if a CD is around $13 CAD, not such a problem in Europe, in France it is around 15-18 Euro/CD, so 0.99 Euro/track coud be quite competitive, but I can buy the same track on iTMS canada for even $0.99 CAD it will be a good deal....

florio

Oct 21, 2003, 03:13 AM

I am sure that they will be able to detect where the cardholder is from. They know I am in Canada, so it will charge my card $0.99 CDN...and they will know that you are in Europe with a European Credit Card. An American could not pay the CDN rate nor could a Europeean pay the CDN rate. iTunes will know where you are....and you would have no choice.

I suspect that the biggest problem will lie in getting the same Record companies in the US to accept less per track (for CDN customers) for the same music. One CDN dollar is approximately $0.73 US. From what I have heard, Apple makes only about $0.08 per song, so they would not be able to sell the music at the lower rate without striking a new deal for the costs per track. The only way that lowering the price would be possible is if the Canadian branches of the record companies (Universal Canada, BMG Canada etc.) are free to make there own licensing arrangements independant of what has already happened in the US.

From an American looking at the price Canadians pay....sure it would look cheaper....but we Canadians still view it as $0.99 (Not $0.73 US).

Does that make sense? I may have lost myself...

Flo

BlueDjinn

Oct 21, 2003, 07:42 AM

I'd say it's time to move questions for Mr. Basskin over to his site directly--he's been extremely generous with his time & posts here, but has also gently-but-repeatedly suggested that the discussion should be moved to their site :)

arn

Oct 21, 2003, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by florio
I am also a bit sceptical as to Mr Basskins authenticity. Why we he come out to answer questions? Doesn't make sense. Maybe we should ask him a few questions about Canada...

To clear the air, Mr. Basskin is not an imposter.

arn

Dave K

Oct 21, 2003, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by RStone
(HMV, Music World...the big ones)
There's part of your problem.

While Music World tends to be in line with the $13.99 - $16.99 window (at least in T.O.), HMV is routinely ~$1-2 more expensive for CD's than any of the other major players.

In my experience, if you're shopping there you're going to be over paying on everything...

mogura

Oct 22, 2003, 12:19 AM

I'm not sure if this has been noted yet, but, the CMRRA http://www.cmrra.ca/default.html is the same licensing agency that is currently part of the group http://www.cpcc.ca/ imposing levies on recordable media in Canada. Currently this levy is relatively small and managable, however, this agency has been trying to increase not only the percentage of the levy, but also what the levy is applicable to:

http://www.sycorp.com/levy/, a report on their good work: http://music.instabizsolutions.com/index.php/article/view/228/1/39/. With all the bureaucracy involved in administering such a levy, it makes me wonder who exactly is getting this money. http://www.avav.ca/unfair_media_levy.html

Say what you want, but this is the music industry doing their own style of stealing from other people and industries.

As a rodnarms noted in regards to iTMS:

I have e-mailed the CRIA, Canada's RIAA and received a response.

"Dear Mr. Armstrong,

I'm not aware of iTunes' business plans for the introduction of their service in Canada but I can tell you that they haven't contacted us yet . I imagine they'll be in touch some time in the near future, however, now that we've got the licensing framework in place.

We'll publish any new news of iTunes' introduction at our website so please continue to visit.

Regards,

Jennifer Hardy
Manager of Administration
Canadian Recording Industry Association"

That means there is no indication as of yet that Apple is dealing with the industry - only the artists.

While this is a good first step, I find it quite suprising that Apple hasn't contacted the CRIA in this matter.

As for the levy, my main concern is that it unfarily penalizes music consumers who abide by the law and consumers in other industries who use recordable media such as the Photographic industry, who use various types of camera cards, hard drives, CD's and DVD's purely for recording of images.

http://www.ccfda.ca/

I might also add that along with other companies, Apple Canada is a member of the ccfda, who are against this blatant tax grab.

mogura

Dec 4, 2003, 08:36 AM

Not being happy stealing millions already from Canadians, seems David Basskin has found another means to get more of our money!

http://www.globetechnology.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20031203.gtsocan1203/BNStory/Technology/

"SOCAN argues that everyone is downloading music, so all ISPs should pay a blanket royalty fee." Really? And this research comes from whom...SOCAN??? Very simplistic rationalization.

"I believe that those who benefit from selling access to music should compensate the creators," Compensate you for nothing...with this kind of rationalization, companies, groups, orgainzations could start demanding taxation in the form of levies, fees or extra service charges for services we are already paying for.

SOCAN, CMRRA are morally bankrupt and are looking towards taxation schemes to deal with their inability to manage these new technologies.

...where do I send in my CD purchase receipts for my rebate?

jimjiminyjim

Jan 16, 2004, 11:27 PM

When is soon, anyway? Once madcow disease leaves stops being an issue? My goodness!

idkew

Jan 17, 2004, 12:31 AM

i just don't understand how any canadian would pay per song when they can legally download the song for free. i only see this happening for obscure music, which is prolly not on iTMS. for most other stuff, i would be happy with a .mp3 downloaded and checked out for quality for free.

what is it that makes someone who is paying a tax to download for free to pay more to download for pay?

jimjiminyjim

Jan 17, 2004, 10:40 AM

To use most file-sharing programs, you aren't allowed to be a "free-loader." And it's illegal to upload.

It's only legal to download so that we can be taxed. There is still the sense of it being "wrong."

There are a surprising number of people who recognize some things as "wrong" and want to do things legally, morally, without a heavy conscience.

iTunes Music Store in Canada!

mogura

Jan 17, 2004, 01:38 PM

I agree. Also, while it is technically legal to download, it isn't "the right thing to do".

As much as the CCRA and their cronies don't like it, their little "levy" only works to legitimize downloading.

What we need are more music stores, and Puretracks just doesn't cut it because they use WMA files which gives me no choice (sorry microsoft) We need the king of all music stores...iTMS.

And we need to get this levy recinded. Hopefully some of the legal persuits that are currently going on to repeal this tax grab will be sucessful.

winmacguy

Jan 17, 2004, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by NavyIntel007
For starters CDs in canada are usually no more than $13. So having anything more than $.99 a song would not make money. In canada they don't make up employee pay on the american dollar. So a canadian making $9/hour is doing the same amount of work as a US employee making $9/hour and yet the money is not worth the same.

Are we to say that Canadians don't work as hard as people in the US? Absolutely not, that's obsurd.

The difference between $.99 CAD and $.99 USD is small. It's not as if the artists are making any more money on CDs in canada when clearly the CD prices in canada are sometimes half (with currency conversion) of what they cost in the States.

Telstra Australia just opened their online music store on Thursday available to Australian residents only so I cant buy from it. Their tracks are based on the .99US per track and priced at 1.17 AUS I think ( what ever the current exchange rate is)

I would expect when we get iTMS in NZ after Australia gets theirs that our tracks will be priced at .99C US = NZ $1.58 approx depending on currency fluctuations

The US dollar is regarded as International currency so most prices in different countries when being traded internationally are based on the US dollar. It has nothing to do with how hard someone works for $9 Can and hour or $9 US an hour

So my guess is you might find that iTMS will be priced at .99C US per track world wide but with country specific stores other wise eveyone would end up paying NZ .99C per track which works out at about .60c US going on the current exchange rate (approx) and then the US industry really would struggle

winmacguy

Jan 17, 2004, 02:31 PM

Microsoft to modify software
Ted Bridis
JANUARY 16, 2004

MICROSOFT has agreed under pressure to change its Windows software to resolve complaints by the US Justice Department that it unfairly influenced how customers buy their music online, the US government said.

Microsoft will offer updated software for its Windows XP operating system in February or March to stop its disputed practice of compelling consumers who buy music on the web to use only Microsoft's internet browser. The company continues to maintain its design was legal.
Government antitrust lawyers concluded that the design violated the landmark antitrust settlement approved by a federal court in October 2002.

winmacguy

Jan 17, 2004, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by jimjiminyjim
When is soon, anyway? Once madcow disease leaves stops being an issue? My goodness!

Sounds like there is going to be a bunch of iTMS stores opening up world wide very soon

http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,8401276%5E15306%5E%5Enbv%5E,00.html

The research indicates the number of internet-connected Australians who frequently downloaded music illegally fell from 14per cent in October 2002 to 8per cent in July 2003. AMR analyst Nick Steigrad said that while this showed there was a growing opportunity for commercial music services, Bigpond was likely to face stiff competition from Apple Computer, which is expected to replicate its US iTunes online music store in Australia in the next few months.

iTunes is the most popular online music retailer, partly because of the popularity of Apple's iPod music players.

However, Mr Milne said BigPond's music service would benefit from its existing customer base of 1.5million Australians. Ninemsn, a joint venture between Microsoft and Publishing & Broadcasting Ltd, also plans to launch an online music service early this year, while Telstra's main competitor Optus said it preferred to let internet users choose their own music service.

winmacguy

Jan 17, 2004, 03:12 PM

Call me slow (I'm a guy )

It just occured to me that with HP's release of the HiPod and iTunes in April for all their PCs and laptops world wide then it would make sense to release iTMS world wide at the same time in each respective country

jero

Jan 17, 2004, 04:37 PM

good for canada!

jimjiminyjim

Jan 17, 2004, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by winmacguy
Call me slow (I'm a guy )

It just occured to me that with HP's release of the HiPod and iTunes in April for all their PCs and laptops world wide then it would make sense to release iTMS world wide at the same time in each respective country

That would be an impressive feat. It would be (yes, this is apple...) completely unprecedented. The work that's been done however makes it a possibility.

Wow. Not to underestimate the value of what apple has done for their home country, but this thought made me realize the enormity of such a project. Huh. iTunes World!! This is all very interesting.

AlbinoPigeon

Jan 17, 2004, 08:55 PM

Just to clear up a few things about CD pricing in western Canada to people from the US and those in other parts of Canada:

Pricing in western Canada, thanks in no small part to A&B Sound, has been remarkable affordable for as long as I can remember.

CD's around $13 CAD ($15 CAD max) was very common for new releases. And now with the reduction in CD prices by Universal Canada, A&B slashed their CD prices ACROSS THE BOARD not just for Universal CD's like Futureshop and HMV did.

Case in point: The Coldplay "Rush of Blood to the Head" release price of $9.99 CAD. Now for less (because of the exchange rate) than the iTMS you have the actual CD.

Granted, prices aren't always as low as that, but with $12 CAD on the low end and $15 CAD on the high end, Canadians (at least those in western Canada) wont be paying $1.49 CAD per song. And certainly not $15.99 CAD for an album.

One last bid of information...CD prices were compared continent-wide and Vancouver came out on top with an average price of $10.78 USD compared to New York at upwards of $20.00 USD.

EDIT: typo

winmacguy

Jan 17, 2004, 09:59 PM

Originally posted by jimjiminyjim
That would be an impressive feat. It would be (yes, this is apple...) completely unprecedented. The work that's been done however makes it a possibility.

Wow. Not to underestimate the value of what apple has done for their home country, but this thought made me realize the enormity of such a project. Huh. iTunes World!! This is all very interesting.

It would be big for Apple to pull this off although will a lot of their decisions lately such as the deal with HP and the success of iTMS in the US and the success of the iPod as well as the initial decission by Steve to make iTunes for the PC market. All of these decisions point to a shift in the ideaology of Apple, possibly bought on by the marketing team...?? or a change of mind by Steve...who knows

But in order for AAC to become the accepted audio format on the web and to slow or stop internet piracy of CDs iTunes has to be spread around the globe and this could never happen through Apple alone. It can only happen by Apple partnering with a major PC supplier for the obvious reason that Apple only has between 2-5% of the world wide market for computers.

Of course while theyre at it they may as well sell a few more Apple computers to a few more PC owners and increase their customer base.

So all of recent moves and decisions by Apple would point to a April or there abouts release for the various International flavours of iTMS. Plus it is the Northern Spring in April which is when customer sales pick up after the winter hibernation period... hopefully

My 2 cents worth

Duff-Man

Jan 17, 2004, 10:00 PM

Duff-Man says.....just to add to a previous post...I shop at a&b *a lot* and they almost always have the best prices and a decent selection (even here on the island)...they also sell on-line and ship anywhere....my only criticism is that they sometimes take a long time to get "special order" items.........oh yeah!
http://www.absound.ca/

fatbarstard

Jan 17, 2004, 10:21 PM

Well this is good news. Cos once Apple gets itself sorted in Canada then it should be easier to get sorted in other parts of the world...

The big problem with music rights (like TV rights) is that they have to negotiated separately for every country so that means than Apple's legal team have to negotiate with EVERY country it wants to get ITMS into...

Talk about a crappy process but there you go.. in the arcane world of intellectual property rights one size done NOT fit all..

Clearly Apple have had their eye on getting iTunes developed for the PC and getting deals like HP and the new mini iPods done first....

Now we will see some action for us poor folk whose parents were selfish enough not to live in the US... :D :D :D

bindlerotor

Jan 18, 2004, 12:02 AM

The iTMS/Pepsi promotion is actually with Pepsi North America, which encompasses the US and Canada.

So my theory is that Canada will have it in time for that promotion ie Feb 1.

winmacguy

Jan 18, 2004, 02:19 AM

Originally posted by fatbarstard
Well this is good news. Cos once Apple gets itself sorted in Canada then it should be easier to get sorted in other parts of the world...

The big problem with music rights (like TV rights) is that they have to negotiated separately for every country so that means than Apple's legal team have to negotiate with EVERY country it wants to get ITMS into...

Talk about a crappy process but there you go.. in the arcane world of intellectual property rights one size done NOT fit all..

Clearly Apple have had their eye on getting iTunes developed for the PC and getting deals like HP and the new mini iPods done first....

Now we will see some action for us poor folk whose parents were selfish enough not to live in the US... :D :D :D

I have it on good authority that Apple NZ are re doing their whole website since the current one is pretty out of date design wise and that the new version will include the iTMS for NZ and that will be due later this year probably after Australia gets their version of iTMS which sounds like it is only a few months away

Spaceman Spiff

Jan 18, 2004, 02:02 PM

Originally posted by MacsRgr8
Why would someone rate this as "negative"?.. 2 to date :confused:

Excuse me?

I haven't met a single Canadian without a computer, and I've been across 5 of the provinces! That's a very rash comment there!

Canuck

Jan 18, 2004, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by dbasskin
Well, it's certainly nice to be noticed. Just a couple of clarifications:

First, CMRRA is a licensing agency, not an "association". I was on the phone to Apple the day of the IMS launch last April, seeking for a meeting to discuss licensing the service to do business in Canada. We regard IMS as one of the best-designed and most exciting online music distribution services ever created, and we'd be very excited to see it in the Canadian marketplace. At the time, Apple didn't want to meet with us. It's now clear that they were putting their efforts into the Windows version, and didn't want to expand to any further territories until they could do so on both the Mac and PC platforms, which seems to me to be a sound business decision.

We're looking forward to a rapid and mutually beneficial negotiation with Apple so that IMS can open in Canada as quickly as possible. Our company represents music publishers (and the songwriters they represent) and we will be licensing Apple in order to authorize them to make and sell reproductions of our clients' songs. Apple will make separate arrangements with the record labels for the use of their recordings. Once all the contracts are in place, I suspect that Apple will waste little time in opening IMS in Canada. Certainly it's full speed ahead as far as we're concerned.

If you have further questions on this subject, I invite you to visit our site and post a question in the "Ask Us A Question" section. You'll receive a prompt response.

David A. Basskin
President
CMRRA Ltd.
Toronto, Canada

Just so long as there are none of the assinine Canadian Content rules, I welcome iTunes to Canada. If we have to put up with the CanCon rules, allow Canadians to sign in to the US and tell them to go to hell.

We have had to endure CanCon rules in radio and TV for far to long. Americans would revolt if +40% of their content had to be the likes of Ann Murray and Gordon Lightfoot. Utter garbage to the point where most Canadians close to the border listen to US stations in their cars and through cable at home.
Canuck

AlbinoPigeon

Jan 18, 2004, 07:24 PM

Originally posted by Canuck
Just so long as there are none of the assinine Canadian Content rules, I welcome iTunes to Canada. If we have to put up with the CanCon rules, allow Canadians to sign in to the US and tell them to go to hell.

We have had to endure CanCon rules in radio and TV for far to long. Americans would revolt if +40% of their content had to be the likes of Ann Murray and Gordon Lightfoot. Utter garbage to the point where most Canadians close to the border listen to US stations in their cars and through cable at home.
Canuck

Excuse me, but Canadian content rules are there for a reason. It's to insure that canadian artists are given their fair share of play time in the face of radio compaines that would much rather fire their staion staff and repeat top 40 bull-******.

If you think that only Murray and Lightfoot constitute Canadian content then you should tune into a different station. Canadian artists are thriving the world over because of these rules.

If you're so anti-canadian when it comes to music you should shut your hole and move to the states. And as for your comment about people along the boarder listening to american radio stations, that's crap! I live in Vancouver and have the chance to take in Clearchannel's crap 24/7, but I don't, and neither does anyone I know.

Maybe one needs to have a pathetically low IQ like yours in order to tolerate Clear's crap.

BTW: Canadian content is regulated by the CRTC and not any artist or industry organizations.

EDIT: Typo

florio

Jan 18, 2004, 09:07 PM

what Canuck said is complete garbage. While it is true that Canadian radio stations must play a certain percentage of Canadian content...i am certain that no one is twisting their arm to play the likes of Sarah McLaughlin, Bryan Adams, Bare Naked Ladies, Nickelback, Shania Twain....and a whole lot more...

...40%???.....Who are you...where do you get your facts.

AlbinoPigeon

Jan 19, 2004, 12:02 AM

I am almost certain the percentage is around 20%

DJY

Jan 19, 2004, 12:29 AM

Originally posted by winmacguy
I have it on good authority that Apple NZ are re doing their whole website since the current one is pretty out of date design wise and that the new version will include the iTMS for NZ and that will be due later this year probably after Australia gets their version of iTMS which sounds like it is only a few months away

Mmmm you know anything specific about Oz iTMS mate? or is still the vague guess / references / rumours I've heard which suggest first quarter of 2004?

Mmm we now at at least two online music download options here in Australia... and if Apple don't get a wriggle on they will miss the boat... mmmm all of those potential iPOD buyers out there that will buy a different brand!!

I think both other online download options - are only WMA files though?!??! (yuck!)

My fingers are staying crossed for a local iTMS... and soon!

iMan

Jan 19, 2004, 05:22 AM

There is a lot of press, rumors and information flying around in my country nowadays that indicates ITMS is coming! And it is coming soon.

Actually record-company excecutives are quoted as saying things like "we will like this to come as soon as possible" and "I think norwegians will be able to use iTunes to buy online music before spring is well underway". Spring here is usually late March to mid-May - indicating that the worldwide launch of iPod mini's and ITMS might coincide in April....

Yippikayeee :D

Canuck

Jan 19, 2004, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by AlbinoPigeon
Excuse me, but Canadian content rules are there for a reason. It's to insure that canadian artists are given their fair share of play time in the face of radio compaines that would much rather fire their staion staff and repeat top 40 bull-******.

If you think that only Murray and Lightfoot constitute Canadian content then you should tune into a different station. Canadian artists are thriving the world over because of these rules.

If you're so anti-canadian when it comes to music you should shut your hole and move to the states. And as for your comment about people along the boarder listening to american radio stations, that's crap! I live in Vancouver and have the chance to take in Clearchannel's crap 24/7, but I don't, and neither does anyone I know.

Maybe one needs to have a pathetically low IQ like yours in order to tolerate Clear's crap.

BTW: Canadian content is regulated by the CRTC and not any artist or industry organizations.

EDIT: Typo

I'm from Vancouver as well. If you think local radio is great you're a headbanger.
BTW If Canadian artists are so great then they should easily be able to compete without protection from the CRTC.

You will notice there are no New Age or quality Jass stations in Vancouver because there isn't enough playable Canadian content to make up the required 40%.

Good Canadian artists have to go elswhere to become successful because their music is repeated so often under the CanCon guidline that everyone becomes turned off by it and doesn't buy it.

Where are the classical radio stations in Vancouver? There aren't any with the exception of the CBC which has an almost comical playlist. Mario Barnardi conducts the Spuzum orchestra, Mario Barnardi conducts the Kelowna orchestra, Mario Barnardi conducts the Calgary orchestra, Mario Barnardi conducts the Hamilton orchestra, etc. etc. CanCom gone mad.
King FM out of Seattle is superior in every respect.

Jack Layton LOL,LOL, LOL Save me from losers who think they can spend MY money better than I can.

Canuck

Jan 19, 2004, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by florio
what Canuck said is complete garbage. While it is true that Canadian radio stations must play a certain percentage of Canadian content...i am certain that no one is twisting their arm to play the likes of Sarah McLaughlin, Bryan Adams, Bare Naked Ladies, Nickelback, Shania Twain....and a whole lot more...

...40%???.....Who are you...where do you get your facts.

...and a whole lot more. You right, they don't neeed CanCon rules. Radio stations should be allowed to play whatever their listeners want to hear. If Canadian talent is as good as you say, it will get played.
Just explain to me why some of the Canadian crap NEVER gets played anywhere else.

40% yes.

BTW Shania Twain and Bryan Adams are not considered Canadians according to those who hand out Canadian Music Awards. Something about not enough Canadians on their production staff. Utter garbage.

winmacguy

Jan 19, 2004, 01:53 PM

Originally posted by DJY
Mmmm you know anything specific about Oz iTMS mate? or is still the vague guess / references / rumours I've heard which suggest first quarter of 2004?

Mmm we now at at least two online music download options here in Australia... and if Apple don't get a wriggle on they will miss the boat... mmmm all of those potential iPOD buyers out there that will buy a different brand!!

I think both other online download options - are only WMA files though?!??! (yuck!)

My fingers are staying crossed for a local iTMS... and soon!

Well the article I saw from Ausralian IT news said that iTMS was coming to Australia in a couple of months and Apple NZ is currently completely rebuilding the Apple NZ website from the
ground up as it still looks like it was done in OS9 and from what i have been told they are building iTMS into it to release it by the middle of this year. I am hoping that we get it pretty soon as well since 91 ZM @ www.zmonline.com is currently doing their second big iPod promo giveaway on during the 8-10pm night slot with the 10GB iPod. Done forget that all those PC users (myself included although I havent picked up my iPod yet) can still transfer all their songs from iTunes to their iPods anyway. As long at they have the original CDs. If not then they got them thru Kazaa,Grokster or Napster for free and will be likely to be among the percentage of p2p users who still have the apps on their PCs to keep doing that and will be unlikely to see the point of "actually paying " for music when they can still get it for free! I know a a number of PC users who fit this catergory.

They sound mystified when i tell them about iTMS and ask me why i would want to pay for down loading when I can use p2p for free.

I am certainly aware that you guys have two music services over there that we cant use :(

aldo

Jan 19, 2004, 02:47 PM

Personally I think that Australia and UK are best suited for the next rollout... mainly due to the fact that Quebec (FRENCH BASTARDS!) isn't in either ;).

68k_575

Jan 19, 2004, 10:27 PM

CanCon only applies to radio and TV stations. If stores had to put up with it, we'd have pretty small stores, and forget about ITMS.

winmacguy

Jan 20, 2004, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by aldo
Personally I think that Australia and UK are best suited for the next rollout... mainly due to the fact that Quebec (FRENCH BASTARDS!) isn't in either ;).

Spotted this article in Australian IT news today regarding the new arrivals on the Australian Online Music Downloading scene....

Battle brews over net music
Kate Mackenzie
JANUARY 20, 2004

AUSTRALIAN companies are flocking to become part of the music download revolution, but no-one is quite sure what shape the brave new world of sound will take.

Observers are not sure who will dominate the new music delivery scene. The first salvos in the battle will be fired in the first half of this year, as the players struggle for brand awareness.
Familiar online heavyweights such as ninemsn and Telstra BigPond will tussle with relative unkowns like Amped and MuleMusic.

Internet company Destra, has already teamed up with four well-known retailers to offer its online music store.

Destra chief executive Domenic Carosa said the large music retailers accounted for most music sales, and his company would try to capitalise on this by offering download vouchers to customers.

"The biggest challenge for the retailers is how to convince people walking into your shop into an online sale," he said.

There were great opportunities for retailers on the internet, because much larger collections of music could be made available, he said.

"When you walk into a Sanity or HMV or a JBHiFi music shop, less than 5 per cent of the music available is physically in that store."

Other online music retailers are adopting different strategies.

Ninemsn, for example, is the country's most popular website, but its competitors argue this does not translate into a good understanding of the music business.

But Destra has been criticised for going to market too early without features such as artist information.

Telstra BigPond claims its direct relationship with 1.5 million customers, and its ability to bill them for songs on their internet access bills, will give it an advantage, but its model is relatively untested.

AMR Interactive principal analyst Jason Juma-Ross said it was too early to say who would succeed, but no offering seemed to have all essential ingredients.

"It's all happening over the next few months. We're waiting to see what happens with Apple, what happens with Microsoft.

"Obviously, Microsoft or ninemsn have a large number of existing visitors to the site, so, like Telstra, they've got a big advantage in that way," Mr Juma-Ross said.

While they are loath to admit it, each is almost certainly awaiting the local launch of Apple's iTunes, which has proved a huge success in the US.

The most popular song on Apple's iTunes website yesterday was Sunrise, by Norah Jones.

Apple Australia has repeatedly declined to comment on local iTunes plans, although music industry sources have tipped a launch in the first quarter of 2004.

Unlike other services launched in Australia, iTunes works with Apple's operating system and its phenomenally popular iPod digital music player.

A report by AMR Interactive says Apple's iTunes will make the most impact in the short term because of the hype surrounding its US service and the success of the iPod.

Music industry observer Phil Tripp said the WMA file format offered by other services, which required Windows Media Player 9, was a stumbling block for Apple competitors.

Only iTunes sold songs that could be used in Apple's iPod player, and its one-click purchasing system had no peer, Mr Tripp said.

"When Apple comes into this territory, they will take no prisoners in terms of marketing, and advertising," he said.

Even Apple admits it has not made a profit out of iTunes, seeing it as a way of boosting iPod sales. BigPond's pricing model - BigPond users pay $1.49 per song instead of $1.89 - prompted speculation the service was mainly designed to boost the ISP's customer acquisition and retention.

BigPond managing director Justin Milne said helping the ISP business was part of the motivation for BigPond Music, but denied it was the main reason.

"There are two commercial reasons. One is that we expect to make money from music, and we'll be making money from it from day one.

"Making money from entertainment will be more important going forward," he said.

"The other commercial reason to go into a venture like this is to add value to the proposition to join BigPond."

Mr Tripp was sceptical of the BigPond venture.

"With Telstra, the first question is why would you want to buy music from a company that can't even get email right?" he said.

Mr Tripp said first-mover advantage was a fallacy.

Most of the current and proposed online services would fail to deliver the range of songs and ease of use that customers would want, he said.

"The problems with the current flock of online music sellers that are madly rushing into the market is they offer only 15 per cent of the music the public really wants," Mr Tripp said.

"That means 85 per cent of what the public wants isn't there, so it's a less than satisfactory buying experience in terms of quantity."

The Australian Recording Industry Association is planning to launch a separate music chart, detailing the most popular downloaded songs.

Raid

Jan 20, 2004, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by aldo
Personally I think that Australia and UK are best suited for the next rollout... mainly due to the fact that Quebec (FRENCH BASTARDS!) isn't in either ;).

While le Quebecois might quirk up the legal process a bit I'm sure Apple will follow suit with other Canadian companies. Companies will either comply to the legal requirements for operating in Quebec (this might mean a french version of the ITMS and maybe special consideration for French-Canadian content), or they simply might not offer the service in Quebec. I hope they don't leave that province without an ITMS.

Also before calling them French bastards (even in jest) take a trip to Montreal and party there. Toronto's scene is pretty uptight making it worth the 6-7 hour drive to a Montreal party... well that and the cute girls with the French-Canadian accents.... <drool> :cool:

AlbinoPigeon

Jan 21, 2004, 02:37 AM

Originally posted by Canuck
I'm from Vancouver as well. If you think local radio is great you're a headbanger.
BTW If Canadian artists are so great then they should easily be able to compete without protection from the CRTC.

You will notice there are no New Age or quality Jass stations in Vancouver because there isn't enough playable Canadian content to make up the required 40%.

Good Canadian artists have to go elswhere to become successful because their music is repeated so often under the CanCon guidline that everyone becomes turned off by it and doesn't buy it.

Where are the classical radio stations in Vancouver? There aren't any with the exception of the CBC which has an almost comical playlist. Mario Barnardi conducts the Spuzum orchestra, Mario Barnardi conducts the Kelowna orchestra, Mario Barnardi conducts the Calgary orchestra, Mario Barnardi conducts the Hamilton orchestra, etc. etc. CanCom gone mad.
King FM out of Seattle is superior in every respect.

Jack Layton LOL,LOL, LOL Save me from losers who think they can spend MY money better than I can.

First of all, the correct number is 35%, not 40%.

As I illustrated in my previous post, it's not about which music is "better". For radio networks in the states it's about a rotating play list that features the same set of "popular" musicians over and over again. This is not variety. Canadian artists shouldn't have to compete against foreign artists to have access to their own airspace. That's crap.

The CRTC's content rules are in place because: "Culturally, Canadian programs and music give voice to Canadians, to their talent and their shared experiences. Economically, it means jobs for thousands of Canadians – from creation to production and distribution on the airwaves." (From CRTC's site)

Just one question…what the hell is a "Jass" station? If your infantile mind was trying to form the word "Jazz" then I’ll tell you why there are no new age or JAZZ stations in Vancouver. BECAUSE IT MAKES NO SENCE FISCALLY! (Not because of a lack of Canadian content.)

Jazz, new age, and classical are among the smallest market segments, once you start playing that stuff you’re down at the bottom of the listener base pile. What does that mean? No ad dollars coming in. What does that mean? No radio station! If you want to listen to that type of music buy a CD dumbass.

Also, your comment about overplay of Canadian content forcing Canadian artists to leave makes no sense at all! Repeat by radio stations is caused by managers trying to save money and repeat THEIR ENTIRE PLAYLIST. Not just the Canadian stuff. That's what a top-40 station does. Besides top-40, all other stations in Vancouver play a wide selection of artists, with little or no repeat. And they are good stations, when you don’t have a CD. Face it, all radio is getting bad nowadays, but compared to what it could be, Vancouver’s radio landscape is pretty darn good.

Canadian artists are great the world over because Canadian content rules allow them to break through to the Canadian population and build a solid fan base. Afterward, their label may release in other markets and because of the momentum, they have a higher chance of being successful.

Lastly, judging by your glaringly obvious low mind capacity, you probably don’t vote at all, and thus are horribly unaware of what the Liberals have done in their unchallenged reign, or what the Conservatives will do if given the chance. One of the cornerstones of the Canadian social system is universal health care, which wouldn't have happened if not for the federal NDP. (Remember that the next time you need medical attention). So while you lay in your bed wanking to pictures of Stephen Harper and Paul Martin, remember that Martin is sticking to huge tax cuts for big business (Businesses like his steamship company that are almost all based off shore, and thus help few, if any, Canadians), and Harper would have Canada sucking on the limp member of the Bush administration's industrial war complex.

Canuck

Jan 21, 2004, 08:50 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AlbinoPigeon
[B]First of all, the correct number is 35%, not 40%.

(Mindless socialist drivel deleted)

For some one who was, "Almost certain that it was 20%" there is no point responding. You simply do not know what you're talking about.

I repeat - Jack Layton LOL,LOL,LOL

apoptoticdream

Jan 21, 2004, 02:34 PM

We have had to endure CanCon rules in radio and TV for far to long. Americans would revolt if +40% of their content had to be the likes of Ann Murray and Gordon Lightfoot. Utter garbage to the point where most Canadians close to the border listen to US stations in their cars and through cable at home.

Wow. You don't deserve the "canuck" name. Have you ever driven thru the Canadian Rockies listening to Gordon Lightfoot? The man is a genius. iTMS isn't for people with small ears anyways. iTMS should be about exploration, not condemnation.

merges

Jan 21, 2004, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by bindlerotor
The iTMS/Pepsi promotion is actually with Pepsi North America, which encompasses the US and Canada.

So my theory is that Canada will have it in time for that promotion ie Feb 1.

The official rules (http://www.apple.com/itunes/pepsi/rules.html) say you need to be a legal U.S. resident... they might change, but as of now I'd say that you're not quite spot-on with that prediction.

bindlerotor

Jan 21, 2004, 09:38 PM

Originally posted by merges
The official rules (http://www.apple.com/itunes/pepsi/rules.html) say you need to be a legal U.S. resident... they might change, but as of now I'd say that you're not quite spot-on with that prediction.

It was really just wishful thinking, I guess.

Canuck

Jan 22, 2004, 01:34 AM

Originally posted by apoptoticdream
Wow. You don't deserve the "canuck" name. Have you ever driven thru the Canadian Rockies listening to Gordon Lightfoot? The man is a genius. iTMS isn't for people with small ears anyways. iTMS should be about exploration, not condemnation.

You're quite right Lightfoot is a genius. I just don't like to hear the same Lightfoot tune 6 to 10 times a week for months on end.
A good friend, who has interviewed hundreds an hundreds of singers and songwriters over the years confirms that the heavily played Canadian artists suffer significant sales drops due to overplaying their music here.

If you like Rock stations there is quite a bit of choice in Vancouver radio. If you like New Age, Jazz or classical there is little or no choice in Vancouver. Not because there isn't a demand but because there are not enough palatable Canadian artists to fill the CanCom requirements, without becoming too repetative. These genres have great success in Seattle radio where they don't have to limit the talent pool to insist 40% Canadian content.

I have to say that our good Canadian will never have any trouble getting played. They don't need the CanCom rules to succeed, it's only the crap that needs CanCom.

The CBC is absolute proof of that.

SilvorX

Jan 22, 2004, 04:32 PM

Gordon IS a god as some of you are saying :D, Candian supergroup "the Guess Who" wrote a tribute song to him back in 1960 called "Lightfoot", this was before Gordon ever made it big in the states.
http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playlistId=809629&selectedItemId=809472 for the Lightfoot fans who also like a touch of guess whoism

I'm waiting patiently for iTMS coming to canada so that canadian bands like Big Sugar and the Headstones will finally get their fame on it.

What's wrong with french ppl though? I'm of french ancestory, and I'm proud of it. :P

The late Izzy Asper brought out Cool FM to air about a year or year and half ago in Winnipeg on the radio, it's supposed to end up going national sooner or later, it's a jazz music station, to kick off the creation of the new jazz radio station back then, Randy Bachman, famous for The Guess Who and Bachman Turner Overdrive fame performed his jazzy hit "Lookin' Out for number 1", since he's a big fan of jazz himself, and he's releasing his first album in 8 years called "Jazz Thing" which is jazz of course.

http://www.canada.com/entertainment/features/cooljazz/index.html

it requires WMP9 :(, and pop up blocking disabled, but its a pretty good radio station.

Lenny Breau was one of the greatest jazz guitarists who ever lived, he was famous in the 1970s in the states for jazz, and he was good friends with Randy Bachman, but he ended up getting killed at his apartment about 20 years ago :(, but Bachman has released much of Breau's collection to cd within the last few years, some of them are on http://guitarchives.com/

marckb

Jan 22, 2004, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by Canuck:
> ...and a whole lot more. You right, they > don't neeed CanCon rules.
> Radiostations should be allowed to play
> whatever their listeners want to hear.
> If Canadian talent is as good as you
> say, it will get played.

> Just explain to me why some of the
> Canadian crap NEVER gets played
> anywhere else.

> 40% yes.

> BTW Shania Twain and Bryan Adams
> are not considered Canadians according
> to those who hand out Canadian Music
> Awards. Something about not enough
> Canadians on their production staff.
> Utter garbage.

Gosh you're ignorant. CanCon is 35% for english radio (+ 65% french language content for french radio). CanCon is determined on the "MAPL" system. To be deemed Canadian, recordings need only meet TWO of the 4 criteria:

M (music) - the music is composed entirely by a Canadian.

A (artist) - the music and/or the lyrics are performed principally by a Canadian.

P (production) - the musical selection consists of a live performance that is (i) recorded wholly in Canada, or (ii) performed wholly in Canada and broadcast live in Canada.

L (lyrics) - the lyrics are written entirely by a Canadian.

Finally, the rule that deemed Bryan Adams "non-canadian" has been fixed. Since 1991, Canadian artists who share a writing credit receive at least half the credit for MAPL requirements.

Finally, there are just as many artists that believe Canadian Content regulations help develop the industry as there are those that think it props up mediocre artists.

I personally think the most important consideration is that for profit companies (which are given the privilege of using the public's airwaves) will always play the EASIEST, most PROFITABLE music. While in many occasions this music is indeed what people want to hear, that is as much because of the MILLIONS of dollars spent on promoting those artists as the quality of the product. If Canadian artists had access to the promotional, celebrity machine that US artists do, we wouldn't need CanCon. In the meantime, it's crucial.

Canuck

Jan 22, 2004, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by marckb
Originally posted by Canuck:
> ...and a whole lot more. You right, they > don't neeed CanCon rules.
> Radiostations should be allowed to play
> whatever their listeners want to hear.
> If Canadian talent is as good as you
> say, it will get played.

> Just explain to me why some of the
> Canadian crap NEVER gets played
> anywhere else.

> 40% yes.

> BTW Shania Twain and Bryan Adams
> are not considered Canadians according
> to those who hand out Canadian Music
> Awards. Something about not enough
> Canadians on their production staff.
> Utter garbage.

Gosh you're ignorant. CanCon is 35% for english radio (+ 65% french language content for french radio). CanCon is determined on the "MAPL" system. To be deemed Canadian, recordings need only meet TWO of the 4 criteria:

M (music) - the music is composed entirely by a Canadian.

A (artist) - the music and/or the lyrics are performed principally by a Canadian.

P (production) - the musical selection consists of a live performance that is (i) recorded wholly in Canada, or (ii) performed wholly in Canada and broadcast live in Canada.

L (lyrics) - the lyrics are written entirely by a Canadian.

Finally, the rule that deemed Bryan Adams "non-canadian" has been fixed. Since 1991, Canadian artists who share a writing credit receive at least half the credit for MAPL requirements.

Finally, there are just as many artists that believe Canadian Content regulations help develop the industry as there are those that think it props up mediocre artists.

I personally think the most important consideration is that for profit companies (which are given the privilege of using the public's airwaves) will always play the EASIEST, most PROFITABLE music. While in many occasions this music is indeed what people want to hear, that is as much because of the MILLIONS of dollars spent on promoting those artists as the quality of the product. If Canadian artists had access to the promotional, celebrity machine that US artists do, we wouldn't need CanCon. In the meantime, it's crucial.

Ok 35%, but I'm surprised you think Canadian talent can't compete. If they're good enough the "promotional celebrity machine" will beat a path to their door.

I think the good entertainers can, as another poster pointed out. I just don't agree that we have to suffer through some clearly less entertaining content to the exclusion of better works, just because it's Canadian.
I want the best entertainment for my money and I don't care where it comes from any more that I care where hockey players come from. I just want to see and hear the best.
Your points are all made from the "artist's" perspective, what about the public who pay the freight and has no choice but to listen less than the best.

BTW- don't you think it absurd that the Bryan Adams fiasco had to be "fixed" at all.
If the goofy MAPL logic prevails elswhere I would guess that Mike Weir won't be considered a Canadian if he wins the Canadian Open because he plays with Americam made balls and clubs and has an American coach.

marckb

Jan 22, 2004, 07:25 PM

First, I never once said I don't think Canadian talent can't compete, and in an ideal world, promoters and record companies with loads of dough would indeed be beating down their doors.

But it's naive to think that success in mass media has just to do with talent. It has to do with big budget promotion. Buzz is created around new artists by flying them across the country, arranging dozens or hundreds of interviews, negotiating magazine articles, having them appear on red carpets to have their photos taken, etc. The american record companies can afford to do this on an unprecedented scale. For a Canadian artist to have to compete on the same playing field is extremely difficult. By making radio stations play 35% Canadian content, we have forced industry to look beyond the easy product provided by their American parent companies. Why would they spend the extra money to send A&R people across Canada to find new artists when it's so much cheaper to just promote pre-developed American artists?

Finally, let me reiterate that the radio waves belong to the citizens, so I have no problem forcing radio stations to do whatever we ask. If they don't like it, they are welcome to hand back their licenses. There are plenty of people who would apply for them.

> Ok 35%, but I'm surprised you think
> Canadian talent can't compete. If
> they're good enough the "promotional
> celebrity machine" will beat a path to
> their door.

> I think the good entertainers can, as
> another poster pointed out. I just don't
> agree that we have to suffer through
> some clearly less entertaining content
> to the exclusion of better works, just
> because it's Canadian.

> I want the best entertainment for my
> money and I don't care where it comes
> from any more that I care where
> hockey players come from. I just want
> to see and hear the best.

> Your points are all made from the
> "artist's" perspective, what about the
> public who pay the freight and has no
> choice but to listen less than the best.

> BTW- don't you think it absurd that the
> Bryan Adams fiasco had to be "fixed" at
> all.

> If the goofy MAPL logic prevails
> elswhere I would guess that Mike Weir
> won't be considered a Canadian if he
> wins the Canadian Open because he
> plays with Americam made balls and
> clubs and has an American coach.

Canuck

Jan 22, 2004, 09:06 PM

Originally posted by marckb

Finally, let me reiterate that the radio waves belong to the citizens, so I have no problem forcing radio stations to do whatever we ask. If they don't like it, they are welcome to hand back their licenses. There are plenty of people who would apply for them.

This isn't about what artists or radio stations want, it's about Canadians being entitled to the best product on our airwaves. We are being forced by a bunch of do-gooders to listen to less than the WORLD of music has to offer. I could care less if half the crap we hear on radio never gets heard, because on a world ranking it never deserved to get played.

marckb

Jan 23, 2004, 08:31 AM

Actually, I think that CanCon is great for the consumer. It's not as though non-Canadian music is banned! It's simply restricted to 65% on the radio, which is still a huge majority.

As a frequent purchaser of Canadian music (which I buy because I like it, not because the government mandates it), I believe however, that if CanCon didn't exist, it would be too easy for record companies to simply package up American music and market it here. Developing a Canadian artist costs way more, and CanCon forces record companies to do it. And it obviously doesn't cost the consumer anything, as records cost way less in Canada than in the US.

marckb

Jan 23, 2004, 08:51 AM

Checked Statistics Canada, and in 2000, 15.5% of new releases in Canada were Canadian, which could be explained by the rules (supplying artificial demand created by CanCon).

However, in 2000, 16% of sales in Canada were by Canadian artists, which, considering the size our marketing budgets compared to American artists, is huge. And you can't say people are being forced to BUY Canadian music because of CanCon, can you?

Canuck

Jan 23, 2004, 09:11 AM

Originally posted by marckb
Checked Statistics Canada, and in 2000, 15.5% of new releases in Canada were Canadian, which could be explained by the rules (supplying artificial demand created by CanCon).

However, in 2000, 16% of sales in Canada were by Canadian artists, which, considering the size our marketing budgets compared to American artists, is huge. And you can't say people are being forced to BUY Canadian music because of CanCon, can you?

Assuming the <>16% figure is relatively constant: You make my point, 15.5% of what the record industry is prepared to put money into releasing, and 16% of what the public buys is Canadian. This represents the saleable/tolerable music content which means that to fill CanCon rules it must be played more frequently to the exclusion of other available music.
Which is exactly what is happening.

Clearly, if there must be CanCon rules 35% is too high.

marckb

Jan 23, 2004, 11:17 AM

Assuming the <>16% figure is relatively constant: You make my point, 15.5% of what the record industry is prepared to put money into releasing, and 16% of what the public buys is Canadian. This represents the saleable/tolerable music content which means that to fill CanCon rules it must be played more frequently to the exclusion of other available music.
Which is exactly what is happening.

Clearly, if there must be CanCon rules 35% is too high.

Actually, the number has been going up annually from about 11% in 1992, to about 16% in 2000. Who knows how hight the number is now.

As for the CanCon regulations as they relate to radio, if we reduced the 35% play requirement, then opportunities to hear Canadian music would immediatly drop, and of course people would buy even less Canadian music, because without the big promotional machine, Radio is one of the only ways to learn about new Canadian artists.

The 35% levels the playing field slightly for Canadian artists and consumers, forcing the for-profit radio industry to make an effort to play some Canadian music.

iMan

Jan 23, 2004, 11:46 AM

Originally posted by Canuck
I want the best entertainment for my money and I don't care where it comes from any more that I care where hockey players come from. I just want to see and hear the best.
Your points are all made from the "artist's" perspective, what about the public who pay the freight and has no choice but to listen less than the best.

Now, as far as I know we do not have rules here in Norway for how much national content has to be played on radio. Still norwegian music is doing ok - and maybe even better than they would with a protection like CanCom is (they HAVE to be good to get airplay). But then we do have several state-owned non-commercial radios here.
Still, considering what commmercial radios would play is for the benefit of the good music is just loads of crap. Commercial stations play commercial music - the like of Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera... No one will have me believe that the majority of music played on any commercial radiostation is "the best there is out there". If that was true we would never hear a Britney song played. Most of the music played is not BAD though - it is just lightweight and mindless. About the same kind as the people arguing commercial stations generally play good music ;)

marckb

Jan 23, 2004, 02:17 PM

Now, as far as I know we do not have rules here in Norway for how much national content has to be played on radio. Still norwegian music is doing ok - and maybe even better than they would with a protection like CanCom is (they HAVE to be good to get airplay). But then we do have several state-owned non-commercial radios here.

That's an interesting comparison iMan. However, I don't think that the situation in Norway and Canada can be compared, mainly because of our proximity to the US, and the fact that we share many mass media (you can get all the major US TV networks over the airwaves in much of Canada).

The most important difference however is that Canada and the US speak the same language, with very similar pronunciation. For better or worse, Canadian culture is tightly intertwined with American culture. I don't think we should (or could) change this, but I do think we have a responsibility to develop Canadian music, and CanCon rules have proven to work to this end...

iMan

Jan 23, 2004, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by marckb
I don't think that the situation in Norway and Canada can be compared, mainly because of our proximity to the US, and the fact that we share many mass media (you can get all the major US TV networks over the airwaves in much of Canada).

The most important difference however is that Canada and the US speak the same language, with very similar pronunciation. For better or worse, Canadian culture is tightly intertwined with American culture.

Well, jokingly we usually (and with a bit of irony :) ) consider ourselves as the most american country outside of the US here...

My point I guess was somewhat of the french attitude: One should thrust ones culture and heritage enough that it will prevail and grow with the influence of other cultures. What I say (eventhough I must say I think Canuck is taking it a bit far) is that in having to protect ourself we also show a great deal of weakness and little belief. If you really believe you are superior (like the french do ;) ) you might appear arrogant, but at the same time no one will be able to touch your heritage...

bryanc

Jan 23, 2004, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by Canuck

King FM out of Seattle is superior in every respect.

Having lived in both Vancouver and Seattle for years, I can say I much prefer CBC to King FM. The advertizing on King drove me crazy.

CBC is one of the many things about which I feel I'm getting good value out of my tax dollars. Obviously, YMMV.

Given that we have plenty of good orchestras and smaller ensembles in Canada, and that they play the full range of classical music, I don't see how CanCon is a problem.

I'd love for there to be more and better classical music stations (in Canada and elsewhere), but, as has already been pointed out, Classical music (and, to a lesser extent, Jazz) is a small market.

I'm looking forward to the emergence of more 'internet radio stations' which should be able to serve small markets better, both because of lower overhead costs, and access to larger audiences.

Of course, it will be interesting to see how things like CanCon play out in such a global market.

Cheers

bryanc

Jan 23, 2004, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by iMan
My point I guess was somewhat of the french attitude: One should thrust ones culture and heritage enough that it will prevail and grow with the influence of other cultures. What I say (eventhough I must say I think Canuck is taking it a bit far) is that in having to protect ourself we also show a great deal of weakness and little belief.

As a Canadian, I can't help getting a giggle out of this.

For those of you who don't know, one of the most constant issues in Canadian public life is the issue of protecting the french language and french culture.

I'm basically in agreement. Given a level playing field (i.e., equal access to audiences) there should be no need for rules like CanCon...good music shouldn't need to be protected by legislation. However, and this is the important point, it is *not* a level playing field. The corporate machinery that fabricates these inane pop stars, is as far removed from a level playing field as one could possibly imagine.

Given that fact, I think rules like CanCon are a pragmatic, if philosophically inelegant, solution.

Cheers

SilvorX

Jan 24, 2004, 01:52 AM

the #3 spot for 1970 for the iTMS charts feature can speak for itself :D, one of the only times in canadian history that a canadian musician/band has had a top 5 song of a year in the states, the only other artists to do so include bryan adams and shania twain. the guess who changed canadian rock forever hands down, concidering they were from the 'middle of nowhere' canada, they still made it huge worldwide, and no matter where that song is played in concert, it always gets fans up on their feet :)

iMan

Jan 24, 2004, 05:13 AM

Originally posted by bryanc
For those of you who don't know, one of the most constant issues in Canadian public life is the issue of protecting the french language and french culture.

I guess you understood I was referring to french as in France, I don't know too much of french Canada. From what I hear though they appear to have a bit of that french arrogance ;)
I understand the awareness to the corporate industrial music machine though... but what I see you are saying is that you canadians are mindless robots that is not able to make own choices except giving in to bigtime marketing and have no sense of quality in music (I am being provocative now ;) )

marckb

Jan 24, 2004, 05:29 AM

I guess you understood I was referring to french as in France, I don't know too much of french Canada. From what I hear though they appear to have a bit of that french arrogance
I understand the awareness to the corporate industrial music machine though... but what I see you are saying is that you canadians are mindless robots that is not able to make own choices except giving in to bigtime marketing and have no sense of quality in music (I am being provocative now )

I don't think it's an issue of Canadians being mindless robots. It's more a matter of access. Canada is huge, with a very dispersed population, so it's very difficult for bands to introduce themselves to the public. When you've seen an artist on TV a million times and read reviews, and seen them profiled in Rolling Stone, you're much more likely to buy their album over an artist you've never heard of. Not because you necessarily believe they are better, but because the Canadian band is often an unknown quantity.

Forcing radio networks to play a minimal amount of Canadian content (over the radio waves which are owned by the people) is the only way to build our recording industry. It's not as though the public is being forced to buy their albums! Besides, there are tonnes of fantastic Canadian bands, and most Canadians (other than Canuck) support CanCon anyway.

Canuck

Jan 24, 2004, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by marckb

Forcing radio networks to play a minimal amount of Canadian content (over the radio waves which are owned by the people) is the only way to build our recording industry. It's not as though the public is being forced to buy their albums! Besides, there are tonnes of fantastic Canadian bands, and most Canadians (other than Canuck) support CanCon anyway.

I will concede that CanCon is here to stay, but argue the need for 35% Canadian content, more than double what is is published.

I would argue that Canadians support CanCon. You may be correct that the age group that likes Canadian Bands are ok with CanCon, but I can assure you that the Baby Boomers in Vancouver are so fed up with the "music" radio offerings in Vancouver that no one I know listens to anything but talk radio in their cars and cable from Seattle at home.

As I pointed out before, at 35% there is not enough good Canadian content to support Jazz, New Age or Classical radio stations. And there is a demand, and the demand falls within a desirable target audiance.

If CanCon was dropped to the reflect the actual rate of Canadian publication in that genre I think we would create room for a greater variety of music offerings in radio.

My guess is that very little would change on the "rock etc." stations with my proposed CanCon rules, because it seems the majority of Canadian production is within this genre.

Twenty-odd years ago the wine industry in BC which predicted doom and gloom at their loss of protection and overcame the obstacles. Under protection BC wines were bloody awful. Today the Okanagan is arguably the best quality wine producing region in North America.

I see little reason that Canadian music cannot prform the same feat.
Besides, does anyone remember Sheila Copps being right about anything.

SilvorX

Jan 24, 2004, 07:58 PM

puretracks updated their "incompatibility" page:

We value our Mac audience, however the Windows Media player for the Mac
platform is not currently compatible with Microsoft protected audio content.
Puretracks is currently working to make our service available to Mac users.

does this mean they'll use acc for mac users instead of wma? or just wait until wmp10 comes out?

Rower_CPU

Jan 24, 2004, 08:02 PM

So, is Puretracks using something more current than the codecs listed here:
Windows Media Player 9 for OS X (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/software/Macintosh/osx/default.aspx)?

merges

Jan 26, 2004, 01:20 AM

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
So, is Puretracks using something more current than the codecs listed here:
Windows Media Player 9 for OS X (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/software/Macintosh/osx/default.aspx)?

Apparently the Mac OS X version of WMP9 doesn't know how to work with copy-protected Windows Media files, which Puretracks seems to be using to limit burns, copies, and the like.

Raid

Feb 11, 2004, 11:48 AM

Maybe this article from the Globe&Mail will illustrate Canada is a pretty good market. The difference in sales looks like it can be directly related to the size of the population (and I know many people disappointed with the quality and limited library at puretracks).

link (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040211.wpure0211/BNStory/Business/)

Puretracks chalks up one million downloads

By TERRY WEBER

Just four months after its launch, Canada's Puretracks on-line music service has crossed the one million download mark and is looking to further strengthen its hold on the market by offering pre-paid user cards. In a statement Wednesday, Toronto-based Puretracks — which began service in mid October — said the addition of prepaid cards means people without credit cards will be able to use the site to buy music digitally. “Previously, Canadians without a credit card were unable to purchase music downloads, especially teens looking for a safe, high quality alternative to file-sharing sites,” Puretracks co-founder and co-chief executive officer Derek van der Plaat said. The cards come in denominations of $20 and $50 and can be bought at retailers including Zellers and Mac's convenience stores as well as CD Plus, Nicholby's Express, Avondale Food and Relay outlets. The move comes as Puretracks — with a catalogue of more than 250,000 tracks — announced that it has crossed the one-million download threshold after roughly four months of operation. By comparison, Apple Computer Corp.'s iTunes service crossed the four-month mark with 10 million downloads, although that service's U.S. customer base is also roughly 10 times the size of the comparable market in Canada. By December, iTunes had announced that downloads had topped 25 million. “Puretracks is all about delivering the best in on-line digital music, and this milestone demonstrates that hundreds of thousands of Canadian music fans and our business partners agree,” Puretracks co-CEO and founder Alistair Mitchell said.