New G4 iBooks [Archive] - MacRumors Forums

Sun Baked

Oct 22, 2003, 08:05 AM

Originally posted by soakwashrinse
Might be a few new 12-inch PowerBook owners kicking themselves in a few hours. :)

Seriously, if these had been around a month ago when I bought my 15-inch 1.25GHz PowerBook, I might have bought a G5 desktop and complimentary 12-inch iBook instead... or maybe even just an iBook to tide me over until the next (G5 or whatever) major PowerBook revisions.

Oh well, still very happy with what I have. Seems that the Rev A 12" PowerBook was the iBook G4 everybody was waiting for... :p

Along with AppleWorks, the Rev A 7445 processor, some games, and the plastic case -- to make it a consumer iBook instead of the PowerBook.

Basically what people were saying for quite awhile. :D

---

Seems the eMac is now the only OS 9 boot machine (or it should be, though not advertised as one any more) -- along with the retro Powermac (but that's not a product line it's probably real close to being a true legacy machine like the 9600 was for awhile).

Marc the Mac

Oct 22, 2003, 08:09 AM

Can anyone tell me which is better?

The ibook G4's ATI Mobility Radeon 9200 graphics processor with 32MB of DDR SDRAM

Or the 12" Powebook's NVIDIA GeForce FX Go5200 with 32MB of DDR SDRAM

edesignuk

Oct 22, 2003, 08:11 AM

WOW, I can't quite believe it, it's great, but don't you think this will eat in to PowerBook sales?

erova

Oct 22, 2003, 08:16 AM

Sun Baked

Oct 22, 2003, 08:17 AM

Probably will come down to whether you want the Plastic case, consumer SW package (AppleWorks, games, etc), and the 7445 Processor.

Or the Aluminum case, Business SW (Office demo, business widgets, etc), and the 7447 processor.

The PowerBook will probably be around 25-40% faster than the iBook at the same MHz rating, depending on the app.

Totalshock

Oct 22, 2003, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by edesignuk
WOW, I can't quite believe it, it's great, but don't you think this will eat in to PowerBook sales?

I don't think so... I noticed they took care to keep the 12" model to a low-end 800 MHz processor this time, meaning that the crowd interested in an ultraportable is pretty strongly steered towards the PB12.

If I didn't have a PB12 already, the new 12" would be just about perfect for my needs, I think... other than its inability to handle monitor spanning... and potentially its limitation to 1024x768 on an external monitor. Anyone know for sure on these two details? (Not buying, just curious.)

Toppa G's

Oct 22, 2003, 08:29 AM

Originally posted by agdickinson
they are now slot loading and have a DVD/RW

No DVD/RW...just CD/R and DVD/ROM. But still one heck of a machine for entry level iBooking.

bbarnhart

Oct 22, 2003, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by soakwashrinse
Might be a few new 12-inch PowerBook owners kicking themselves in a few hours. :)

Oh well, still very happy with what I have.

You should be. There is only one 12" model running at 800 MHz.

yellow

Oct 22, 2003, 08:32 AM

Originally posted by edesignuk
WOW, I can't quite believe it, it's great, but don't you think this will eat in to PowerBook sales?

I would say that this is a portent to the G5 being placed into the PowerBook in the next 6 months. "Get the new G5 PowerBook, asbestos shields & bags of ice not included."

GrannySmith_G5

Oct 22, 2003, 08:35 AM

wow, I wasn't expecting them so soon. I think they look very good. I just might get one with an educational discount.

QCassidy352

Oct 22, 2003, 08:36 AM

aah... and tell me again why I just bought a 12" PB?? :mad:

if I'm not mistaken, that Radeon 9200 will kick the ever-living **** out of the FX 5200go... :mad:

edit: actually, as I look at it more and more, this is very nice. There are still quite a few differences between the ibook and the 12" PB. And best of alll, now people will have to stop ***ching that about the 14" ibook. :-) (composes self, gets over it, and is happy once again that Apple is making things better)

Abraxsis

Oct 22, 2003, 08:36 AM

Personally I dont like the plastic cases of the iBook. Now if they still had the partially metal cases then I might be kicking myself ... just a little bit though. I LOVE my Rev. B 12" Powerbook, absolutly love. Ive even decided to break the rules of ettiqute and sell my PC laptop that I receieved last May for my college graduation. Mom and Dad didnt like the idea but I explained it to them and I think they understood. Ive considered keeping it too, but I rather someone who can't really afford a new laptop to have my slightly used one. Im generally like that, when I upgrade something Ill either give my old one to a needy family or sell it dirt cheap. OK now Im rambling, sorry. Congrats, to those who were waiting for the new iBooks .... enjoy.

QCassidy352

Oct 22, 2003, 08:42 AM

ok, another thing. If you go to the edu store, you'll see a low end model configured for edu only... save 50 bucks, go from combo to CD, and lose 128 RAM... that's not much of a deal, IMHO.

heljy

Oct 22, 2003, 08:52 AM

other than its inability to handle monitor spanning... and potentially its limitation to 1024x768 on an external monitor. Anyone know for sure on these two details?

I just checked ou apple's site and it says the iBook only supports mirroring :( The only reason that I sold off my iBook 600Mhz is that it does not support higher resolution on an external monitor. I wonder if there is any heck to get around that...

rog

Oct 22, 2003, 08:53 AM

Sadly, these are using the old slow style portable G4 with only 256 kb L2 cache and no L3. Given that huge compromise, it's sad that they bumped up the price $100 on the low end, although now it has a combo drive. Also, the top 12" iBook is only 800 MHz when it has been a 900 MHz G3 with 512kb cache for over 6 months. For most non-altivec tasks, it will be slower than the model it replaces, although $200 cheaper. There's no excuse for not offering a 12" model with a faster processor. The 14" still has the same poor 1024x768 resolution and you have to buy this overweight much less portable machine if you want the fastest iBook. Booooo Apple. Big mistake! Since these iBooks will likely be around for another 6 months, it is just embarassing that Apple will have an $1100 800 MHz machine in its lineup, with a crippled G4 in 2003. PCs at that speed were that price in 2000, and an old 800MHz P3 probably trounces the celeron like verison of the G4 that Apple is using in the iBook. I am beginning to think this "upgrade" makes the OS9 booting 900 MHz G3 model more attractive.

johnnyjibbs

Oct 22, 2003, 08:54 AM

I gasped when I saw the new specs - mighty close to my new PB12" - but then I found that the 12" iBook G4 only goes up to 800 MHz, and on the old processor, so the PB will still be better. I wouldn't want a 14" screen so I think Apple has done well to make this distinction.

And if you want to use iDVD you still need a PowerBook :D . Way to go Apple!

And we're back to just two generations of processors. So much for the Gobi and Mohave processors then (unless these are them rebranded! Oh no, the L2 cache is a giveaway).

FlamDrag

Oct 22, 2003, 08:55 AM

I've never paid extra close attention before... but is the case a little tiny bit different?

Steradian

Oct 22, 2003, 08:56 AM

I thought this thread was a joke until I went to the apple.com site...wow...pinch me

johnnyjibbs

Oct 22, 2003, 09:15 AM

The 12" PB is the reason that the iBook G4 12" only goes up to 800 MHz. There needs to be a good dirfference in speed and features to justify shelling more for the PB, particulalry now they both have slot-loading drives. The 14" can afford that extra power because it is not as portable as the 12" iBook/PowerBook, and is still nowhere near the PB 15" in features.

I'm still sure as hell happy I got the PB 12" rev B 'cos I have the 80GB DVD-R version (something you can't do on the iBook). But these new "iBook G4s" are really neat.

What I like is the attractive price of these. So you could always get an iBook for £799 before but only with a CD-ROM? Now for £849 you can get a laptop that is much better than equivalent £800 PC laptops. Apple was sorely lacking a cheap laptop that fit this category - the £1050 of the iBook 12" combo was too much. And the new 14" for £999! Absolutely amazing! Apple surely has finally sorted out a portable for everyone.

Expect Apple notebook sales to fly now, even here in the UK! YEAR OF THE NOTEBOOK! Now we just need some advertising...

Stella

Oct 22, 2003, 09:18 AM

For iBooks with Raedon cards, there is a firmware hack. It works well, I hacked my iBook - pure bliss - dual monitors.

I wonder if Apple disabled the hack in these iBook G4s?

Originally posted by heljy
I just checked ou apple's site and it says the iBook only supports mirroring :( The only reason that I sold off my iBook 600Mhz is that it does not support higher resolution on an external monitor. I wonder if there is any heck to get around that...

baby duck monge

Oct 22, 2003, 09:23 AM

wise, but irritating, move to only let the 12 inchers go up to 800. guess i won't ge upgrading...

nycmacartist

Oct 22, 2003, 09:24 AM

If I were to buy a G4 Ibook, would I be able to install Panther into my G4 tower?

blueflame

Oct 22, 2003, 09:24 AM

the ibooks appear to have a more grey apperance
what do you think

besson3c

Oct 22, 2003, 09:24 AM

Is this IBM's G3 with Altivec that Apple has decided to call the G4, or is this produced by Motorola?

Powerbook G5

Oct 22, 2003, 09:24 AM

Wow, those are nice looking iBooks! With Panther pre-loaded, too. :)

jamilecrire

Oct 22, 2003, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by edesignuk
WOW, I can't quite believe it, it's great, but don't you think this will eat in to PowerBook sales?

Yes, only until the G5 Powerbooks are released. My guess is by the end of the year or early 2004.

MattG

Oct 22, 2003, 09:26 AM

Slot loading drives!!! Very cool!

And I'm glad they finally phased out the "CD-ROM" drives (the ones that don't read DVDs or burn CDs). What good is that anyway?

DillHarris

Oct 22, 2003, 09:27 AM

Originally posted by blueflame
the ibooks appear to have a more grey apperance
what do you think

Yeah... They are definatley 2 tone if you look at the hi res photos.

johnnyjibbs

Oct 22, 2003, 09:27 AM

Originally posted by besson3c
Is this IBM's G3 with Altivec that Apple has decided to call the G4, or is this produced by Motorola?

This is Moto's 'old' 7455 G4 because it only has 256k L2 cache (not 1MB). On non-altivec tasks, the 800MHz 12" will likely be slower than the old 900 G3. Still a good update though, and the 14" is MUCH better value than it used to be.

caveman_uk

Oct 22, 2003, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by nycmacartist
If I were to buy a G4 Ibook, would I be able to install Panther into my G4 tower?
With Jaguar the install discs were same for the powermac and the ibook I had so I guess unless they're machine specific now yes it'd probably work. It's almost certainly outside of the licence conditions though.

Expensive way of buying panther....:D

cbonz

Oct 22, 2003, 09:29 AM

I think this update further solidifies the G5 powerbook within the next 6-8 months. If it doesn't happen at MWSF look for it at WWDC. Makes more sense at WWDC. G5 Power Mac one year, Powerbook the next. One can only hope...

blueflame

Oct 22, 2003, 09:30 AM

So what is the preformance difference from the rev A 17in PB and the NEW 14 in Ibook?
obviously the screen size, but to some, that is no drawback, the Fw800, and..... a littel slower ram speed?
other than that? so which is better?
Andreas

silvergunuk

Oct 22, 2003, 09:31 AM

A G4 iBook?! It can only mean the G5 powerbook will closely follow. Feel the power!

johnnyjibbs

Oct 22, 2003, 09:33 AM

Maybe, but there is probably a bigger gap between PB and iBook now than there was a little while ago. The 12" iBook G4 has distanced itself from the 1GHz PB 12", and the 14" is in a different market, while still nowhere near the 15 or 17" PBs. As I mentioned on the other forum, you still need a PB if you want a DVD-R drive (internal) or an 80GB hard drive.

deepkid

Oct 22, 2003, 09:33 AM

Would have been great to keep a $999 or cheaper bottom-end iBook. It will be interesting to see how many people would opt for any iBook over $1,099 when also considering the 12 inch powerbook.

While it's great to see a $799 eMac, there seems to be a huge price gap between it and the $1,099 model.

mrwilly123

Oct 22, 2003, 09:34 AM

anyone want an 12" ibook 800 g3/384/30 gb with applecare?

Helmut Kool

Oct 22, 2003, 09:35 AM

This is great! I couldn't believe my eyes when I read these news. I'll probably get a 12" model for christmas. G3 to G4, more default memory, faster memory, better graphics chip, USB1 to USB2, Airport to AE, and price down 200 euros!

eric67

Oct 22, 2003, 09:37 AM

Originally posted by Totalshock
I don't think so... I noticed they took care to keep the 12" model to a low-end 800 MHz processor this time, meaning that the crowd interested in an ultraportable is pretty strongly steered towards the PB12.

If I didn't have a PB12 already, the new 12" would be just about perfect for my needs, I think... other than its inability to handle monitor spanning... and potentially its limitation to 1024x768 on an external monitor. Anyone know for sure on these two details? (Not buying, just curious.)

I think there is another reason, maybe the small enclose of the iBook is not compatible with the heat released by the 1GHz G4 7455. in addition alu is a much better heat conductor than plastic, in other words, the Alu will release heat better than the plastic case.

Latino

Oct 22, 2003, 09:37 AM

Originally posted by heljy
I just checked ou apple's site and it says the iBook only supports mirroring :( The only reason that I sold off my iBook 600Mhz is that it does not support higher resolution on an external monitor. I wonder if there is any heck to get around that...

Hi heljy

You may want to have a look at http://www.rutemoeller.com/mp/ibook/ibook_e.html

Don't know if it will work with these new ibooks, but on my iBook 900 it works beatifully. Dual desktop with the laptop screen, and a large CRT running at 1600x1200... although that hurts performance just a little. Running at 1280x1024 is much speedier

hayesk

Oct 22, 2003, 09:37 AM

Originally posted by nycmacartist
If I were to buy a G4 Ibook, would I be able to install Panther into my G4 tower?

Not legally.

jayb2000

Oct 22, 2003, 09:37 AM

I can't imagine this would hurt PB sales.

14" iBook
256K L2 cache @ 1GHz
14-inch TFT Display
1024x768 resolution
• 256MB DDR266 (128MB built-in & 128MB SO-DIMM)
• 60GB Ultra ATA drive
• Combo Drive (DVD-ROM/CD-RW)
• AirPort Extreme Card
• Bluetooth Module
• Keyboard/Mac OS X - U.S. English
• 14.1-inch TFT XGA display
• 1GHz PowerPC G4
• ATI Mobility Radeon 9200 w/ 32MB DDR video memory

Subtotal $1,648.00

12" PowerBook
1024x768 resolution
512K L2 cache
NVIDIA GeForce FX
Go 5200 (32MB DDR)
Full size keyboard
10/100BASE-T Ethernet
FireWire 400
AirPort Extreme Ready
Mini-DVI out
• 1GHz PowerPC G4
• 256MB DDR266 (256MB built-in)
• 60GB Ultra ATA drive @ 4200rpm
• Combo Drive (DVD-ROM/CD-RW)
• AirPort Extreme Card
• Keyboard/Mac OS - U.S. English
• 12.1-inch TFT Display

Subtotal $1,748.00

So, for $100 more, you get better external display capabilities, double the cache, higher RAM capacity, it weighs a pound less.

All else being equal (bluetooth, AE, drive, etc) I can't imagine why anyone would get the 14" iBook.

I can see the 12" iBook, for cost purposes, but it looks to me like the 12" PB would kill the 14" iBook sales.

johnnyjibbs

Oct 22, 2003, 09:38 AM

In fact, it seems like they are almost wanting to phase out the 12" iBook considering the 12" only has a 30GB hard drive as well. When you think about it, most PC consumer laptops (with keyboards) have 14" 1024x768 screens, just like the 14" iBook. The 12" PB fills the more portable niche.

Nice to see that finally all Macs have at least a Combo drive!

tutubibi

Oct 22, 2003, 09:38 AM

New 12" iBook G4 is probably the best value in the current Apple lineup. I must admit I was suprised with price/features of new iBooks.
Way to go Apple!

I was always hoping that Apple will rename G3 iBook to something like eBook and update new iBook to lower G4s. That would be equivalent to eMac/iMac on the desktop side.
So now that iBooks are G4 and priced at bellow $ 1100 USD, does this make eBook more likely? Can Apple make G3 notebook for something like $ 699?

peteMG

Oct 22, 2003, 09:38 AM

Bolt from the blue! I suppose this got lost in the music hoopla, or perhaps I just missed a day. I hope the case is largely the same.. those are some of the sturdiest machines I've seen. They're right up there with the ol' toilet seats.
Originally posted by cbonz
I think this update further solidifies the G5 powerbook within the next 6-8 months. If it doesn't happen at MWSF look for it at WWDC. Makes more sense at WWDC. G5 Power Mac one year, Powerbook the next. One can only hope...
As long as a G5 powerbook is out by the time Applecare runs out on my tibook and all the paint has chipped off, I'll be happy.

fuzzbucketzoe

Oct 22, 2003, 09:39 AM

I know why they had to enfeeble the 12" ibook -- to protect 12"pb sales -- but it's still annoying. In my travels, the 12" model is far more popular in cafes, etc -- it's lighter and more attractive (it seems there is a pretty broad consensus on this point). The 12" ibook is a great consumer portable.

and the intro model over $1000? yeesh

If they had to go G4 (and I wish they didn't have to) I guess my wish list would look like this:

12" 800 cd - $999
12" 800 combo - $1099
12" 933 combo - $1199
14" 1Ghz - $1399

for reasons already listed in this thread, people still have need for the pb over the ibook. It's too bad Apple felt the need to limit options on one of its most popular models.

eric67

Oct 22, 2003, 09:39 AM

Originally posted by blueflame
So what is the preformance difference from the rev A 17in PB and the NEW 14 in Ibook?
obviously the screen size, but to some, that is no drawback, the Fw800, and..... a littel slower ram speed?
other than that? so which is better?
Andreas
the G4 iBook sports as 7455 G4 processor while the AluBook sports(or should sport) a 7447 processor.
that's it
7455 has half the 7447 memory cache and release more heat.

alphaone

Oct 22, 2003, 09:41 AM

I can't believe nobody else pointed this out!

The G3 processor is now effectively dead with Apple. That is of course unless they have other plans for it...:D

eric67

Oct 22, 2003, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by jayb2000

All else being equal (bluetooth, AE, drive, etc) I can't imagine why anyone would get the 14" iBook.

I can see the 12" iBook, for cost purposes, but it looks to me like the 12" PB would kill the 14" iBook sales.

not exatly, one has 12" display whereas the other has 14" display,
depending what you have to do, you better take the 14" for your eyes....

woodsey

Oct 22, 2003, 09:44 AM

Anyone know if they run OS 9?

tpjunkie

Oct 22, 2003, 09:45 AM

PB G5 is coming sooner than expected. I think thats the only reason we're seeing the g4 ibooks that use motorola (as opposed to an ibm altivec enhanced g3)...i guess that microchannel cooling stuff was for real.

kristianm

Oct 22, 2003, 09:47 AM

This is a downgrade, not an upgrade. It seems like they want to get customers over to the 12" PB. No they are a bit easier to compare, although some people will forget to look at the cache difference.

Just my opinion...

What happened to the IbM chips everyone was talking about?

Maybe they have to buy a certain amount of G4's from Motorola?

There must be some strange reason.

heljy

Oct 22, 2003, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by Stella
For iBooks with Raedon cards, there is a firmware hack. It works well, I hacked my iBook - pure bliss - dual monitors.

I wonder if Apple disabled the hack in these iBook G4s?

You know of where I can get the firmware? *darn* Maybe I shouldnt have sold my iBook after all....

machinehien

Oct 22, 2003, 09:50 AM

Well the G3 as a sub-brand was getting long in the tooth. Imagine if Intel was still trying to market the Pentium II, irregardless of how much clockspeed they could squeeze out, that's why they just rebadged it as the Pentium III. In the end the G3 processor was becoming a liability when people were weighing the features for a consumer notebook.

Shadey

Oct 22, 2003, 09:52 AM

I wonder if the 12" iBook is available in the store immediately. If so, big slip up for Apple, what with the release of Panther.

Giaguara

Oct 22, 2003, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by soakwashrinse
Might be a few new 12-inch PowerBook owners kicking themselves in a few hours. :)

Seriously, if these had been around a month ago when I bought my 15-inch 1.25GHz PowerBook, I might have bought a G5 desktop and complimentary 12-inch iBook instead... or maybe even just an iBook to tide me over until the next (G5 or whatever) major PowerBook revisions.

Oh well, still very happy with what I have.

I will get my 12" Powerbook today. As I can't afford to have 2 machines, I'd still have got it even if these new ibooks were out when I ordered it.

These new ibooks seem like a good deal for most users.

I wish Apple would have kept an "eBook" or something - a still G3 ibook for mostly kid users or those who don't need the highest performance. Maybe a model that would be even more resistant (as material) and really targeted to small users.

I had a good timing to sell the ibook though. ;)

CubeHacker

Oct 22, 2003, 09:58 AM

One thing people seem to be overlooking is that the ibook G4 has a better video card than the 12" Powerbook. Just how much better, i'm not sure, but for anyone more concerned with graphical prowess for games or something, the ibook is much more attractive than the 12" Powerbook.

Of course, I doubt too many Mac users are buying laptops to play games on :)

iShater

Oct 22, 2003, 09:58 AM

*FAINTS*

Wow, that was a big surprise. I just opened macminute to just see what is new today and *BAM* it hit me.

I was just thinking last night of selling my 12" 800Mhz ComboDrive iBook and getting a powerbook. I guess mine just dropped a few hundred $ in value ;)

Way to go though, I love the new prices! And specs! :D

Ok, I just realized that the mid-range machine is a 14", so I guess portability AND power is only in the powerbook line. Still not bad for the entry level machine to be so heap and have so much.

macMaestro

Oct 22, 2003, 09:59 AM

Yeah, there is definitly a two tone going on on the iBook. Grey on the inside, white on the outside. I like it. It looks real sleek. Subtle and sleek. Now if only they'd drop the price acouple hundred bucks, I'd be able to afford one of these babies. :D

http://a240.g.akamai.net/7/240/51/e309f284a41e68/www.apple.com/ibook/gallery/images/ibookg4_front.jpg

kristianm

Oct 22, 2003, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by Giaguara I had a good timing to sell the ibook though. ;)

Great timing. Everyone is probably going to bite on the G4 which means I'll never get my iBook sold. Never mind, I'll wait for the G5 powerbook.

Rincewind42

Oct 22, 2003, 10:01 AM

IBM would not be releasing a G3+Altivec soon, if at all. They JUST released the 750GX - which did NOT add Altivec - and thus would not likely be releasing another G3 product so soon. Additionally, it would make more sense from a business standpoint for them to put their Altivec work into the 970 series and beyond anyway - their customers buy the G3 for what it does best. If IBM wants to get into the arena with Altivec, then they need to make the 970 more attractive for those roles, not imbue the G3 with it. It's not technically as simple as slapping an Altivec unit into the CPU - doing so would probably make the G3 unattractive for it's current applications!

kristianm

Oct 22, 2003, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by macMaestro
Yeah, there is definitly a two tone going on on the iBook. Grey on the inside, white on the outside.

My quite old one is like that as well. White plastic on the outside, grey metal-looking plastic on the inside.

yamabushi

Oct 22, 2003, 10:02 AM

The ATI 9200 is about the same as the NV FX5200go. Here is a review. http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Hardware/Reviews/fic_r92p/index.html That means that the graphics power on the 15" and 17" PB is still way ahead of the iBook.

sethwerkheiser

Oct 22, 2003, 10:04 AM

Wow. We just bought our 900mhz G3 in May for $1299, and now a 800mhz G4 is just $1099. That's okay, the wife can have the older one, I'll get a G4 :)

robotrenegade

Oct 22, 2003, 10:09 AM

These are going to be hot!!

NicoMan

Oct 22, 2003, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by edesignuk
WOW, I can't quite believe it, it's great, but don't you think this will eat in to PowerBook sales?
The 12" iBook tops at 800 MHz, only got 256KB L2 cache, can't have a superdrive and seems more limited memory expansion-wise. I still see both lines being quite distinct.

kkubaryc

Oct 22, 2003, 10:13 AM

At AppleExpo in paris, I compared my iBook 500's screen to the 12" G4 PowerBook. Even with Apple's moronic lit up display table (which makes most laptop screen difficult to see), the difference was obvious. The iBook (albeit an older one) has a much dimmer screen. I'm reminded of this everytime I look at my wife's PB 867 screen and have to put on sunglasses. In a normal high-light working environment, I find the iBook screen very difficult to see. The crappiest Dell Inspiron laptops screens are much brighter than my iBook (though the Dell weighs 50 pounds).

Anyway, don't forget the actual screens when you compare.

I thought I would get a g4 iBook the second I heard about it. Then I looked at the actual specs. I'm of the camp that finds the 14" to be just silly, and the 12" is crippled. Furthermore, the memory is rated at twice the frequency of the system bus. Excuse me? That's sad. Oh well.

What I would do, though, is buy a new 12" iBook and try to trade it for my wife's 867 PowerBook. Too bad they don't just sell that model for the price of an iBook.

pgwalsh

Oct 22, 2003, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by machinehien
Well the G3 as a sub-brand was getting long in the tooth. Imagine if Intel was still trying to market the Pentium II, irregardless of how much clockspeed they could squeeze out, that's why they just rebadged it as the Pentium III. In the end the G3 processor was becoming a liability when people were weighing the features for a consumer notebook. The celeron processor was a PII for a long time.. Now it's based of the PIV, but it's basically a PII with some PIV extentions.

Shadey

Oct 22, 2003, 10:16 AM

Originally posted by pgwalsh
The celeron processor was a PII for a long time.. Now it's based of the PIV, but it's basically a PII with some PIV extentions.

And a 400MHz bus, and a .13 micron, and 256KB of L2 cache... Besides, the Celeron hasn't been based on the Pentium II for about a year and a half.

theRebel

Oct 22, 2003, 10:18 AM

Any chance that this is a 750GX being called a G4 rather than a 7455?

I do not see any mention of Altivec on any of the iBook related pages.

The battery life of the new iBooks is quoted at 6 hours. How could they be getting 6 hours out of the 7455?

Giaguara

Oct 22, 2003, 10:21 AM

Design and touchwise, these new ones are not as cool looking as the provious. What's that greyishness? I want to see those (I try to resist till friday) and try them too. The 800 / 900 mhz models were less pleasant for touch as well, compared to the models up to 700 (800?) mhz, those white that you would be still able to mod to be transparent, so where the plastic case was transparent and painted on white under it, rather than having all white case.

I loved those ibooks. When I see this greyish one ... I love the powerbooks. But feature and pricewise, great machines. ;) :p

macnews

Oct 22, 2003, 10:22 AM

These are an "upgrade" for Apple and the market the ibook is aimed at. While it may be a bit slower, it is also cheaper. My guess would be Apple does not want three processors in the family as it hurts sales with the "lesser" processor - even though it might be faster in some configurations.

iBook buyers tend to be students, average joe/jane blows that are looking for their first laptop and not doing some intense processing. These will work fine for running word, appleworks, surfing the net, etc.

I'm just happy we get a new set of rumors about G5 powerbooks maybe in sooner rather than later!

themacolyte

Oct 22, 2003, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by rog
Also, the top 12" iBook is only 800 MHz when it has been a 900 MHz G3 with 512kb cache for over 6 months. For most non-altivec tasks, it will be slower than the model it replaces, although $200 cheaper. There's no excuse for not offering a 12" model with a faster processor.

Real world tests will have to be done of course, but over the course of normal use I think the 800 MHz G4 will be noticeably faster than the 900 MHz G3. Each new iteration of OS X makes greater use of the Altivec unit so that mundane OS tasks are sped up. Every iLife app benefits as well. A mere 100 MHz drop in raw speed is nothing if Altivec is speeding up general tasks (AAC encoding in iTunes, picture resizing in iPhoto, etc.) by a factor of 2 to 8.

In code that doesn't use the Altivec unit, the 11% drop in speed won't be glaringly apparent.

slowtreme

Oct 22, 2003, 10:23 AM

WOW!

cgmpowers

Oct 22, 2003, 10:26 AM

Yeah I thought the iBook looked a little different...but then again I have crappy eyes..

It really is nice looking...although, I still miss colors...(was a former keylime iBook owner)...

Christopher

Originally posted by macMaestro
Yeah, there is definitly a two tone going on on the iBook. Grey on the inside, white on the outside. I like it. It looks real sleek. Subtle and sleek. Now if only they'd drop the price acouple hundred bucks, I'd be able to afford one of these babies. :D

simX

Oct 22, 2003, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by rog
Sadly, these are using the old slow style portable G4 with only 256 kb L2 cache and no L3. Given that huge compromise, it's sad that they bumped up the price $100 on the low end, although now it has a combo drive. Also, the top 12" iBook is only 800 MHz when it has been a 900 MHz G3 with 512kb cache for over 6 months. For most non-altivec tasks, it will be slower than the model it replaces, although $200 cheaper. There's no excuse for not offering a 12" model with a faster processor. The 14" still has the same poor 1024x768 resolution and you have to buy this overweight much less portable machine if you want the fastest iBook. Booooo Apple. Big mistake! Since these iBooks will likely be around for another 6 months, it is just embarassing that Apple will have an $1100 800 MHz machine in its lineup, with a crippled G4 in 2003. PCs at that speed were that price in 2000, and an old 800MHz P3 probably trounces the celeron like verison of the G4 that Apple is using in the iBook. I am beginning to think this "upgrade" makes the OS9 booting 900 MHz G3 model more attractive.

http://homepage.mac.com/simx/.Pictures/wah.gif

bcharm

Oct 22, 2003, 10:31 AM

Isn't it possible for Apple to up the bus speeds any higher on the iBooks with IBM's CPUs?

tutubibi

Oct 22, 2003, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by theRebel
Any chance that this is a 750GX being called a G4 rather than a 7455?

I do not see any mention of Altivec on any of the iBook related pages.

The battery life of the new iBooks is quoted at 6 hours. How could they be getting 6 hours out of the 7455?

Good eye! There is definitely no mention of Velocity Engine on iBook G4 specs.
But I don't think it's IBM processer as they have more than 256KB L2.

Veldek

Oct 22, 2003, 10:43 AM

I'd be interested in the battery time of these new iBooks. The older ones were advertised with 5 respectively 6 hours. I'd guess the new ones haven't got that much, have they?

punter

Oct 22, 2003, 10:44 AM

Originally posted by soakwashrinse
Might be a few new 12-inch PowerBook owners kicking themselves in a few hours. :)

MEEEE!!!! Well not really.

I tried so hard to future proof myself by waiting for the usb2 12"PB to arrive. And I didn't get long and now all I have is available in an ibook for 700 AUD less!! (slightly smaller drive, slightly slower proc)

How does my video card compare? I note the ibook doesn't SUPPORT dual screens (no doubt there'll be a hack).

I think I will never ever look at the details of the new powerbooks again :(

*Repeats* i like my 12"PB, it's what I wanted and it's just as fast as the day i bought it

fred

Oct 22, 2003, 10:44 AM

greenstork

Oct 22, 2003, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by cbonz
I think this update further solidifies the G5 powerbook within the next 6-8 months. If it doesn't happen at MWSF look for it at WWDC. Makes more sense at WWDC. G5 Power Mac one year, Powerbook the next. One can only hope...

I couldn't agree with you more. I had thought that some sort of Altivec G3 was coming but seeing the G4 in the iBook can only mean that the PB is getting a G5. I'm going to say MWSF given that Apple is doing fewer events every year and wants the events that they do to be special.

sushi

Oct 22, 2003, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by jayb2000 I can see the 12" iBook, for cost purposes, but it looks to me like the 12" PB would kill the 14" iBook sales.
Please remember that some of us older folks prefer the bigger pixels (lower resolution displays) since it makes things easier to read. The reason Apple makes the 14 inch iBook is that there is a market for them.

Sushi

pb&j

Oct 22, 2003, 10:48 AM

Are these new iBooks housing Moto's G4? or are they a new G3 relabeled? If they are in fact Moto's, then what happened to the talk of the G3 sticking around for a 'long time'??? Will someone please respond to this and straighten me out on whether or not the G3 is truly dead. :confused:

johnnowak

Oct 22, 2003, 10:54 AM

Where the heck did this come from. Yeesh.

G5 powerbooks within 6 months, please!

tutubibi

Oct 22, 2003, 10:56 AM

Sun Baked

Oct 22, 2003, 10:58 AM

Just to say again...

The is a lot like a PowerBook 12, with

1. A Motorola 7445 Processor (may be the newest x45 revision)

2 . Consumer software package (Appleworks, games, etc)

3. Plastic case

4. Less RAM soldered onto motherboard -- and still no superdrive.

5. Slightly larger, with 1/3 lb more beef.

---

And because it's using the same chipset as the PowerBooks/iMac -- the Intrepid -- OS 9 booting is DEAD.

Ramsos

Oct 22, 2003, 11:01 AM

The new ibooks have a slot loading combo drive isn't that new to ibooks, and while I know they are not available with a superdrive I'm pretty sure you can use an external dvd-r drive and burn dvd's now that its a g4(DVD Studio Pro).

dho

Oct 22, 2003, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by tutubibi
Good eye! There is definitely no mention of Velocity Engine on iBook G4 specs.
But I don't think it's IBM processer as they have more than 256KB L2.

That could very well be true, but with 6 hours of battery it makes me wonder. They might have not wanted to put in the extra L2 to keep it bellow the current pbook. This could be just what makes an Ibook an Ibook until the wait is over for a pbg5. All they would need to do then is slap on a higher speed IBM "g4" and add more L2.

Is their a limiter on the ibm chip that says it needs to have 512kb L2?

or, not. That is just what makes sense to me.

edit: I am just backing up "theRebel" who originally noticed the 6 hours battery life.

mxpiazza

Oct 22, 2003, 11:05 AM

manu chao

Oct 22, 2003, 11:09 AM

The 12in iBook uses a 50Wh battery with an 800Mhz G4 and claims 6h, the 14in iBook uses a 61Wh battery with an 933Mhz G4 and claims 6h (I'm sure the 6h applies only to the 933Mhz version).
The 15in Powerbook uses a 46Wh (12in:47Wh) battery with an 1Ghz G4 and claims 4.5h.
The iBooks are thicker (12in: 1.35in against 1.18in, 14/15in: 1.35in against 1.1in) than the Powerbooks and a little bit heavier as well. Thicker, heavier computer allows for a bigger battery plus lower speeds give you a better battery live.

But the 867Mhz/1Ghz Ti-books had about a 61Wh battery and only five hours of battery live, from which one could conclude that the new iBooks have a more power-efficient processor (e.g. a version of the 7447 with only 256K of cache). BTW, what is the difference between the 7455 and 7447/57? On the face of it a bigger L2 cache, and lower power consumption. But that lower power consumption has to have a reason (and don't tell me it's the omission of the L3 cache, the 7457 has a L3 cache and is still more power-efficient).

kristianm

Oct 22, 2003, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by themacolyte
Each new iteration of OS X makes greater use of the Altivec unit so that mundane OS tasks are sped up.

Maybe 10.4 will require a G4 or better? All altivec from now on?

johnnyjibbs

Oct 22, 2003, 11:11 AM

A lot of people seem to be jumping the gun with this. I think Apple has got it right.

At first sight, I was a little worried that my new PB 12" was suddenly not as good anymore. But then I looked some more.

First off, if the rev A PB 12" 867 was apparently slower than the 900 G3 iBook on non-altivec tasks, then this new iBook 800 will be slower because it uses exactly the same processor as the old PowerBook. They probably capped it at 800MHz because of the heat problem, especially without a metal case to dissapte the heat. So the new iBook 800 is still worse performance-wise than the rev A PowerBook.

Meanwhile, the 14" is bigger so can cope with the increased heat. They can afford to increase its speed also because it is a different market to the 12". If you're thinking, where is the more powerful 12" iBook, I'll say this: I'm typing on one right now (i.e. the 12" PowerBook). A more powerful 12" iBook would cannibalise 12" PB sales, hence it is only the entry-level model now.

What is best is that these iBooks now have far more aggressive pricing, certainly in the UK, - you get a hell of a lot for £849 (base model).

Will PowerBooks go G5 soon? I probably think not, and I'm not just saying that in the hope that they don't. These iBooks are not that close to the PowerBooks in performance, even the 14"PB 1 GHz vs the 12" PB. Therefore there is no need for the PBs to jump to G5 yet. Also, if the G5 1.6 and even 1.8 are slower or roughly equal to dual 1.25 G4 on some tasks, then that just shows how powerful the G4 really is. It also appears that a G4 is more powerful clock for clock than a G5, so I'm glad I don't have a 1.2 GHz G5 in my PB. My computer is way fast enough - too many people play down the G4.

I think G5s will enter PowerBooks either in late Spring (the next update) but more realistically one year from now or more. Honestly, these are good notebooks (both iBooks and PowerBooks), if you want one, go get.

dho

Oct 22, 2003, 11:18 AM

johnnyjibbs:
just to warn you, I think you might be flamed by some Moto haters pretty quick. You better grab on to something.

usersince86

Oct 22, 2003, 11:24 AM

Though they’re not exactly the same, the specs are similar. With the new iBooks, by upgrading the HD to 40G and adding the BlueTooth module, you’re PRETTY CLOSE to the 12” PowerBook Combo Drive for $425. less:

=========
iBOOK 12”
=========
* 800MHz PowerPC G4
* 256MB DDR266 SDRAM (128MB built-in & 128MB SO-DIMM)
* 256K L2 cache
* 40GB Ultra ATA drive
* Combo Drive (DVD-ROM/CD-RW)
* FW400 & USB 2
* Keyboard/Mac OS X - U.S. English
* 12-inch TFT XGA display
* ATI Mobility Radeon 9200 w/ 32MB DDR video memory
* BlueTooth
Subtotal $1,174.00

===============
POWERBOOK 12”
===============
* 1GHz PowerPC G4
* 256MB DDR266 (256MB built-in)
* 512K L2 cache
* 40GB Ultra ATA drive
* Combo Drive (DVD-ROM/CD-RW)
* FW400 & USB 2
* Keyboard/Mac OS - U.S. English
* 12.1-inch TFT Display
* NVIDIA GeForce FX Go 5200 (32MB DDR)
* BlueTooth
Subtotal $1,599.00

It depends on what you want, of course, but this is a nice move for Apple. Maybe when the PB goes G5 (or whatever) you’ll be able to an iBook w/SuperDrive.

Sun Baked

Oct 22, 2003, 11:26 AM

The Rev. A PowerBook 12 used the 7445 Rev F(3.3) Processor.

There is a newer Rev G(3.4) available.

And until somebody pops open a G4 iBook we won't know which spec range (aka temp range) or which revision it'll be.

But at 800MHz, it should not be too hot. It's clock way down from the old W spec chips Apple used in the PowerBooks.

Plus plastic is an insulator, so the case won't feel as hot as the PowerBook. (Though inside is another story)

tutubibi

Oct 22, 2003, 11:27 AM

If new iBooks are using 7445 (more likely since no need for L3 support that 7455 provides) it should not be too hot. Also, it should have a good battery life.
Look at the specs:

http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/taxonomy.jsp?nodeId=018rH3bTdG8653

Power disipation for 800 MHz is max 24 W, typical 17 W.
For reference, Pentium M (Centrino) has around 22 W for 1.3 GHz.

chamberlain

Oct 22, 2003, 11:27 AM

I'm thinking it is not a Moto G4. There is no mention of AltiVec in the tech specs. But in the tech specs of the Powerbook (and any other G4) it is very clear.

Example:

iBook -
800MHz, 933MHz or 1GHz PowerPC G4 processor with 256K on-chip level 2 cache running at full processor speed

Powerbook -
1GHz PowerPC G4 processor with Velocity Engine, 512K SRAM on-chip L2 cache, 133MHz system bus (12-inch models)

I guess we'll have to wait for someone to get one and open it up. But what good is a G4 without AltiVec. All marketing I suppose.

BOOMBA

Oct 22, 2003, 11:28 AM

I just bought 2 of the 1 Ghz models.

This is swell.

Blaaze

Oct 22, 2003, 11:29 AM

holy ****. that's awesome!

ColoJohnBoy

Oct 22, 2003, 11:30 AM

Edot

Oct 22, 2003, 11:32 AM

Now Apple only has two processors to program for instead of 3. Will this mean that Panther is the last version of OS X to run on a g3?

pilotgi

Oct 22, 2003, 11:35 AM

I would have preferred that this upgrade included the next gen G3 instead of the G4. I don't need Altivec and this so called upgrade uses an older processor, although the marketing spin appears to represent an upgrade because they went from G3 to G4.

This raises an interesting question as to whether Apple will continue to use Moto processors in the future. How many more years will Apple continue to use the G4 now that it is available in the iBook?

I think they're just using up their stockpile of G4's until a new G3 chip is available that supports ddr and a 200Mhz or better bus. They just won't call it a G3. Probably some kind of "MobilityX" processor.

gotohamish

Oct 22, 2003, 11:39 AM

dongmin

Oct 22, 2003, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by Abraxsis
Personally I dont like the plastic cases of the iBook. Now if they still had the partially metal cases then I might be kicking myself ... just a little bit though. it seems though you've never used an iBook. The iBook (USB) has always had aluminum on the inside (hence the flatter, more greyish color) and white plastic on the outside. The thicker plastic actually makes the iBook more durable, in my opinion. It's not as prone to scratching or bending (of the screen).

edit: "It was designed with durability in mind, using ultratough polycarbonate plastic — the same material used in bulletproof glass — with an internal magnesium frame for added strength." (Apple)

woodsey

Oct 22, 2003, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by gotohamish
Rubbish. My 500 G4 TiBook still WHUPS the 900 G3 iBook at EVERYTHING I throw at it.

Sadly you are very mistaken. The 900 iBook would trounce your TiBook in everyday performance, especially graphics. Your G4 would only be faster in altivec operations.

And Im not just having a go at you. I own a TiBook too.

alset

Oct 22, 2003, 11:48 AM

Sad to see that portability now means loss of power. I want a faster chip in the 12". The 14" machine is a joke for students.

Still, I'm happy to wake up to this great news!

Dan

macphoria

Oct 22, 2003, 11:52 AM

What a pleasant surprise. I was expecting yet another G3 update.

Ensoniq

Oct 22, 2003, 11:53 AM

Regardless of the word "AltiVec" missing from Apple's tech pages, this is an iBook G4 and has AltiVec. It's the Motorola processor...get over it. :)

Whether or not PowerBook G5 machines will be here in 6 months, the new iBook is not evidence to either support or negate it. Apple did a great job of distinguishing the iBook and PowerBook lines...far better than I could have thought with both lines using the G4 now.

Basically, there is exactly a $500 difference between each of these sets of machines:

12" iBook 800 Combo ... 12" PB 1GHz Combo

14" iBook 933 Combo ... 12" PB 1 GHz SuperDrive

14" iBook 1 GHz Combo ... 15" PB 1 GHz Combo

These are the comparable iBook/PB siblings. The 15" & 17" SuperDrive PB models are way out of the iBook's league...so there is no comparison.

So if you look at those machine pairings listed above, I think Apple separated each quite well, even though they all share the G4 chip. Max RAM, cache size, video processor, DVI out, FW 800, SuperDrive...big enough differences in each pairing to justify the $500 difference if you're a "power whore", or to enjoy the $500 savings if you're "budget minded."

If by some chance there is a PowerBook G5 in 6 months, then we know the iBooks will get up to 1.33 GHz G4s. And if they are the IBM 750VX (which will absolutely be called a G4 by Apple marketing), then it's higher speeds, higher cache and bye-bye Motorola.

Even if the 800 MHz G4 iBook is slower in SOME tasks than the 900 MHz G3 it replaced, it's $200 less and a better overall package again for the "budget minded". Apple can't please all the "power whores" all the time... :)

Without a doubt, Apple's best iBook lineup ever. No one should be disappointed about anything. Buy the iBook for the PowerBook based on your needs, but don't insult the new iBook. It's a waste of energy.

neilw

Oct 22, 2003, 11:54 AM

For what it's worth, this pretty clearly suggests the near-term evolution plan for the iBooks. When the PowerBooks go G5 in their next rev (I hope), the iBooks will then move on to use 1 GHz / 1.25 GHz 7447s. That'll be a nice performance bump.

I'm a little surprised how many seem to think the 12" iBook and PowerBook are too close together. I'd expect an 1 GHz G4 w/512 MB L2 to be considerably faster than the 800 MHz G4 w/256 MB L2. At least enough to keep the machines in separate classes.

machinehien

Oct 22, 2003, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by ColoJohnBoy
Irregardless isn't a word. ;)

You got me there.

Irregardless, I don't care if IBM's G3 could raise the dead, Apple needed to move forward to the next gen chip up. G3's have been around the iBook lineup since 99'. My 700 Mhz iBook I got in 2001 doesn't seem that far off from what the iBook lineup was last week. At least they updated the some of the ports, added Airport Extreme and a better graphics card.

macphoria

Oct 22, 2003, 12:00 PM

I wonder if this "older G4" will cause heat related problems in new iBooks?

chamberlain

Oct 22, 2003, 12:01 PM

Regardless of the word "AltiVec" missing from Apple's tech pages, this is an iBook G4 and has AltiVec. It's the Motorola processor...get over it.

Hey hey now, It looks like you got your panty's in more of a bunch than I do. :p

jcshas

Oct 22, 2003, 12:03 PM

Allright, as much as I try to tell myself I'm not going to get caught up in a silly game of upgrading every time Apple comes out with something newer and cooler, it just doesn’t work. I purchased my 800 MHz G3 iBook (combo) in August. Surley there can't be that much of a performance difference between my 800 G3 iBook and the new 800 G4 iBooks, right? Maybe then I won't feel so bad! BENCHMARKS, I NNED TO SEE BENCHMARKS!

wizard

Oct 22, 2003, 12:04 PM

Interesting Question to say the least.

Personally I like this rev of the iBooks, kinda wished that they went with the newset rev of the G4 but that didn't happen.

The only problem is that this happened sooner than expected so the bank account isn't ready. I do hope that the units still unofficially support expansion beyond 640MB of memory. Limited memory capacity is one thing that would keep me away from these machines. I'm sure in the next 24 Hrs we will hear the skinny on this. I do hope that all of that 256MB of memory is soldeed in an that they arent using the expansion bay to get that number.

Dave

Originally posted by Marc the Mac
Can anyone tell me which is better?

The ibook G4's ATI Mobility Radeon 9200 graphics processor with 32MB of DDR SDRAM

Or the 12" Powebook's NVIDIA GeForce FX Go5200 with 32MB of DDR SDRAM

ColoJohnBoy

Oct 22, 2003, 12:06 PM

DAMN IT ALL!!! IT ISN'T A WORD!!!

But that's just the anal-retentive English major in me talking.

I think these updates are great. Pretty much like every update - could have been better, could have been worse. There's logical reasoning behind every decision made on these iBooks, faulty or not. I would have liked to see a better graphics chip (Radeon 9000 Pro), more L2 cache, and a G3 with AltiVec (I don't like Motorola, and would rather Apple convert their whole line to IBM processors. Oh well....), but hell, I think these are pretty damn good. My roomie has a 12" 700 MHz iBook, 20 GB HD, and ComboDrive. When I told her about the iBook G4, she started uttering a string of obscenities I dare not repeat here. Needlees to say, some people would just prefer to have an iBook, even if it isn't the best. It's perfect for what they do.

mrsebastian

Oct 22, 2003, 12:08 PM

makes sense to me why apple did this. first off, i don't know exact numbers, but i sincerely doubt the difference between the faster g3 or slower g4 will mean much to actual working speed. maybe a little in apps like photoshop, but day-to-day i expect the new and last model to feel very similar. so as far as apples costs compared to perceived value, works in apples favor here.

second, the g3 is acient! were talking back to the days of the beige box. so they had to drop the old processor. i may be wrong, but i would also assume 10.3 runs much better and with less bugs on a g4 than a g3 -- so it was high time to dump the g3.

finally, i think apple is making the ibook more attractive to shoppers looking for something for their kids (ie: college). with itms, ipod, and apple certainly marketing to a younger audience with all these products, so it makes sense to offer them a matching ibook to go with their ipod... funny, i just remembered a dream i had this morning and i was using an apple made cell phone... anyway, apple keep up the good work and i expect my pb17 to be available with a g5 soon!

agdickinson

Oct 22, 2003, 12:09 PM

Cool,

Posted the article and my name got deleted
:(
Thanks guys....
:mad: NOT :D

Lancetx

Oct 22, 2003, 12:11 PM

One other thing of note when distinguishing the G3/900 vs G4/800 iBooks is that the G4 has a 133MHz bus as opposed to the 100MHz on the old G3/900. Plus the G4/800 uses DDR RAM which the G3 does not. This doesn't even take into account the graphics upgrade from the Radeon 7500 to the 9200. I'm sure this more than makes up for the 100MHz CPU clock speed reduction and whether it's an Altivec operation or not, the new G4 iBook will outperform the previous G3 model.

jxyama

Oct 22, 2003, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by jcshas
Allright, as much as I try to tell myself I'm not going to get caught up in a silly game of upgrading every time Apple comes out with something newer and cooler, it just doesnt work. I purchased my 800 MHz G3 iBook (combo) in August. Surley there can't be that much of a performance difference between my 800 G3 iBook and the new 800 G4 iBooks, right? Maybe then I won't feel so bad! BENCHMARKS, I NNED TO SEE BENCHMARKS!

here's one benchmark for ya.

at a saving of (say) 1 second per operation per application, how long will it be before the new G4 iBook will make up the 2+ months you've had your G3 iBook?

just trying to make you feel better... there's no benchmarking for the time you've already spent working/playing with your current machine...

:)

mrsebastian

Oct 22, 2003, 12:19 PM

Originally posted by jcshas
Allright, as much as I try to tell myself I'm not going to get caught up in a silly game of upgrading every time Apple comes out with something newer and cooler, it just doesn’t work. I purchased my 800 MHz G3 iBook (combo) in August. Surley there can't be that much of a performance difference between my 800 G3 iBook and the new 800 G4 iBooks, right? Maybe then I won't feel so bad! BENCHMARKS, I NNED TO SEE BENCHMARKS!

though it's a pain, you're better off upgrading immediately when apple comes out with a new version of your hardware product. the longer you wait the less you are gonna get for your older model. if you upgrade immediately, you might even break even. as a basic guidline, with every revision the value of the previous model will go down by about 25% and if it gets eol'd, like this 500mhz g3 imac sitting here at the office, it's worth *****!

the secret to saving as much of the original purchase price is to upgrade as soon as it's revised and used the power of ebay to sell the old one!

wizard

Oct 22, 2003, 12:20 PM

While it is easy to agree with you about the 800 MHz processor, it will at tiems appear to be slower that the old machine, I have to disagree strongly about the 14" model.

Many of us like the resolution of that monitor just fine. If you don't like it look else where for a portable (Powerbook maybe). The last thing Apple needs to do is to push onto the market a crappy screen on their low cost machines.

As far as the processor goes, I think it remains to be seen what the results will be performance wise. On the other hand it doesn't really matter as absolute performance is not the reason to get an IBook. Performance as a portable is, to this end I'm more concerned about battery life than anything else. Sure I would hope that overall the new machines perform better than the units they replace, but not at the expense of the battery. I'm sure we will learn very quickly just how well thse machine do behave relative to the old ones. My geuss is that it will be a pleasant surprise for some. The cobination of AltVec, faster memory, and a new GPU should make for an interesting mix performance wise.

Thanks
Dave

Originally posted by rog
Sadly, these are using the old slow style portable G4 with only 256 kb L2 cache and no L3. Given that huge compromise, it's sad that they bumped up the price $100 on the low end, although now it has a combo drive. Also, the top 12" iBook is only 800 MHz when it has been a 900 MHz G3 with 512kb cache for over 6 months. For most non-altivec tasks, it will be slower than the model it replaces, although $200 cheaper. There's no excuse for not offering a 12" model with a faster processor. The 14" still has the same poor 1024x768 resolution and you have to buy this overweight much less portable machine if you want the fastest iBook. Booooo Apple. Big mistake! Since these iBooks will likely be around for another 6 months, it is just embarassing that Apple will have an $1100 800 MHz machine in its lineup, with a crippled G4 in 2003. PCs at that speed were that price in 2000, and an old 800MHz P3 probably trounces the celeron like verison of the G4 that Apple is using in the iBook. I am beginning to think this "upgrade" makes the OS9 booting 900 MHz G3 model more attractive.

theRebel

Oct 22, 2003, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by Ensoniq
Regardless of the word "AltiVec" missing from Apple's tech pages, this is an iBook G4 and has AltiVec. It's the Motorola processor...get over it. :)

I sure hope that it is indeed a G4 with Altivec as opposed to a G4 without Altivec, but does anyone have any actually evidence to support that assumption? I want to believe that Apple would not label it as a G4 without including Altivec, but it just seems odd that they make absolutely no mention of such a major selling point.

Found the 7445 (http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC7445&nodeId=018rH3bTdG8652) on Motorola's website. Is this the processor that these iBooks are using?

TrenchMouth

Oct 22, 2003, 12:21 PM

i think these things are great, and i can understand where some people might be annoyed with the price/performance compaired to the 12 powerbook. but this thing is great for me. i dont want to shell out $1700 right now. 1200 is just right and thats how much i would be spending for the 12ibookG4 with 640Megs of Ram. i am coming from a 500Mhz G3 ibook though, so this to me will be a huge upgrade. its all perspective, and from mine its a great deal. i like it to be small, i dont need all the power in the world, but and this will be a good step up from what i have right now. good job Apple.

jcshas

Oct 22, 2003, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by jxyama
here's one benchmark for ya.

at a saving of (say) 1 second per operation per application, how long will it be before the new G4 iBook will make up the 2+ months you've had your G3 iBook?

just trying to make you feel better... there's no benchmarking for the time you've already spent working/playing with your current machine...

:)

THANKS! That's what I needed to hear! Maybe it's just seperation anxiety. I had to ship my iBook back to Apple yesterday - "backlight cuts out on screen movement"

Curufinwe

Oct 22, 2003, 12:32 PM

jcshas - I hear you man. I just got back my iBook from such a replacement. Everytime I budged it the screen would go black! Fortunately , the apple fix worked. Still, I hope they have these issues worked out in the new machines. Backlight failure makes a laptop super useless and this was only 5 months after buying it.

DakotaGuy

Oct 22, 2003, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by pb&j
Are these new iBooks housing Moto's G4? or are they a new G3 relabeled? If they are in fact Moto's, then what happened to the talk of the G3 sticking around for a 'long time'??? Will someone please respond to this and straighten me out on whether or not the G3 is truly dead. :confused:

If I had a million dollars to bet, I would bet these are Motorola G4 processors. The IBM G3 is dead.

CrackedButter

Oct 22, 2003, 12:39 PM

Personally i think the ATI card should be in the PB's while the Geforce FX should be in the iB's. Looking at the link somebody earlier posted, the ATI card beats the FX at everything...so it makes sense to put it in the 12"PB.

johnnyjibbs

Oct 22, 2003, 12:44 PM

Today almost means the end of Mac OS 9 also! Now, if I am not mistaken, the Power Mac G4 is the only computer still being sold that boots into Mac OS 9. And that's only being sold as a legacy machine. Even the eMac page has a footnote at the bottom saying that Mac OS 9 can only be accessed from classic mode. Mac OS X is finally here for good.

(Note: I have never used Mac OS 9)

memphismac

Oct 22, 2003, 12:46 PM

I've got a Graphite DVSE iMac, but I want to add a portable to my Apple stable.

I'm very excited about the new iBook releases, but I've a PowerBook vs. iBook question.

I know the iBook doesn't have a SuperDrive, and I've read that you can't use iDVD without it. But are there new patches for iDVD3 that would allow me to edit with iDVD and burn with a 3rd party burner?

I was really considering the 15" Powerbook with a Superdrive (i think the 12" screen is just too small). I want to be able to burn DVDs of home movies. Maybe not today, but in a year or two. But the $1000 difference between 15"pb and new 14"ib could buy a lot of other stuff (like a 3rd party burner).

Somebody offer some advice to this notebook newbie,

Brian

p.s.
I'll be using it mostly for Internet/word/excel/iTunes, but I'd also like to do some iMovie and iPhoto editing. I'll save the old iMac for the occasional Photoshop stuff.

slowtreme

Oct 22, 2003, 12:50 PM

the ATi 9200 is an r250 core I think, not the r300 or r350.

If that's the case, it's really just an ATi 7500/8500 with a new name. This puts it under the performance level of the FX5200. that's pretty poor compared the the midlevel chips like the FX5600 and ATi 9600, and well under the performance of the top end chips in the FX5900 and ATi 9800.

eric67

Oct 22, 2003, 12:51 PM

wizard

Oct 22, 2003, 12:51 PM

Interesting question agian. It shuld be noted that they are specifing that the cache runs at full processor speed. It was my understanding that on the 7455 it ran at half speed. I have to wonder it these are the 7457 with half the cache disabled. Could it be that like Intel, Motorola disables part of the cache on under performing 7457 so that marginal processors can be used elsewhere? Anybody got the real scoop on the 7455's cache speed?

A full speed cache could be significant when it comes to performance of these machnes.

One thing I did notice it that they did not rev the motherboard. That extra 128mG is instaled in the expansion slot. Pretty sleazy if you ask me. On the otherhand the spec does indicate expansion capability to 1.2 GB of RAM, so maybe things aren't that bad.

Unfortunately my initial excitement has dwindled a bit. It does not appear that these are really the type of upgrades that Apple can be proud of. It looks like an attempt to grab a bit of the hoiday market with the G4 brand. Apparenlty the motherboard is not that much more advanced than the one on the machines this model replaces. I'm begining to see these as a very short term release.

Thanks
Dave

Originally posted by theRebel
Any chance that this is a 750GX being called a G4 rather than a 7455?

I do not see any mention of Altivec on any of the iBook related pages.

The battery life of the new iBooks is quoted at 6 hours. How could they be getting 6 hours out of the 7455?

Jon the Heretic

Oct 22, 2003, 12:52 PM

A few opinions of my own:

* Yes of course it has Altivec. Stop this silly speculation. All G4s have altivec. This is definitional for the G4 brand.

* It seems clear this G4 is from Motorola like all before it...

* The G3 as we know it is dead. However, G3/G4 and G5 are brands not actual chips. IBM and Motorola don't own the brandnames and use the actual chipnames for the most part. This means that an advanced IBM-made G3 with Altivec could absolutely be sold as a "G4" in the future. It is up to Apple. A G4 is essentially a G3 with altivec afterall; scalar performance is virtually identical at the same clockspeed. An altivec-enhanced G3 should be extremely comparable in performance to a G4, so the branding even makes sense.

* 800Mhz G4 v. 900Mhz G3: Before Quartz Extreme, Apple accelerated some graphic Quartz elements with altivec. A G4 is just plain snappier than G3 running OS X at the same clockspeed. Benchmarks would not show this, but users will feel it. A G3 is a poor CPU for MacOS X.

Plus, a G4 has much better memory bandwidth than a G3, which affects overall system performance even when the system bus speed is held constant.

Better memory bandwidth + Quartz optimization: I doubt a single user will miss that extra 100Mhz of G3 in normal usage, and will be glad they have it when running Altivec-enhanced apps. Hence, that 11% difference in clockspeed will not translate to a 11% drop in perceived performance.

nagromme

Oct 22, 2003, 12:53 PM

I can't tell if the 2-tone is silver or grey, but either way I really like how the look has changed.

* NO MORE CHEESY CLEAR KEYS (they match the inside now)

* Slot-load drive

And I always did like the white case. This will make my laptop decision all the harder...

Lucky edu buyers can get a G4 with 256 RAM, 32 VRAM, and Bluetooth for $1023! Or upgrade to Combo drive, 40 HD, and 640 RAM for $1166!

(It's ALWAYS cheapest to get the minimum RAM in an iBook and buy 512 3rd-party for ~$100. Just hang on to the leftover 128 as a spare.)

As for the 14" 1024x768... it's perfect for people who don't like staring at tiny pixels. I'm surprised how popular that model is--but if demand is there, then Apple should keep the model.

LinuxGigolo

Oct 22, 2003, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by theRebel
Any chance that this is a 750GX being called a G4 rather than a 7455?

I do not see any mention of Altivec on any of the iBook related pages.

The battery life of the new iBooks is quoted at 6 hours. How could they be getting 6 hours out of the 7455?

Interesting. Although, there's no mention of Altivec on the AlBook pages, either.

EDIT: Err... uh.. actually, Apple calls it the "Velocity Engine" and it's mentioned on the first page of the PB site. But not at all on the iBook site.

sethypoo

Oct 22, 2003, 01:01 PM

This is great news for students!

No matter how much certain people complain about there not being enough L2 cache and no L3 cache, this is regardless a great thing for students.

Most students I know are on a limited budget, so a simple computer for word processing, web-surfing, listening to/downloading music, and chatting is all we really need.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't trade in my Rev. A 12" PowerBook for anything, I absolutly love this machine, but the new iBook G4's are great news for those on a limited budget. The only reason I got my PowerBook was 1) I shopped around, and 2) I had a savings account :).

iBook G4's for education start at $949. that is amazing. You can get a speedy 14" iBook for only $1399 with the educational discount.....for those who want "speed", I'd recommend getting the 933Mhz model (with the educational discount-$1199), upgrading the RAM to 640MB, and getting AirPort Extreme.

This was smart of Apple.
Great job! :D:D:D:D:D

wizard

Oct 22, 2003, 01:04 PM

Yep many do play down the G4. The question that is running through my mind is just what G4 is in these new machines. It was my understanding that only the most recent G4 rev's have a L2 cache running at processor speed. This is what Apple is advertising. The potential is for higher performance form these machnes than some may expect. It si a shame that with all of the technical information posted Apple couldn't have been clearer about just what is in the machine.

Thanks
Dave

Originally posted by johnnyjibbs
A lot of people seem to be jumping the gun with this. I think Apple has got it right.

At first sight, I was a little worried that my new PB 12" was suddenly not as good anymore. But then I looked some more.

First off, if the rev A PB 12" 867 was apparently slower than the 900 G3 iBook on non-altivec tasks, then this new iBook 800 will be slower because it uses exactly the same processor as the old PowerBook. They probably capped it at 800MHz because of the heat problem, especially without a metal case to dissapte the heat. So the new iBook 800 is still worse performance-wise than the rev A PowerBook.

Meanwhile, the 14" is bigger so can cope with the increased heat. They can afford to increase its speed also because it is a different market to the 12". If you're thinking, where is the more powerful 12" iBook, I'll say this: I'm typing on one right now (i.e. the 12" PowerBook). A more powerful 12" iBook would cannibalise 12" PB sales, hence it is only the entry-level model now.

What is best is that these iBooks now have far more aggressive pricing, certainly in the UK, - you get a hell of a lot for £849 (base model).

Will PowerBooks go G5 soon? I probably think not, and I'm not just saying that in the hope that they don't. These iBooks are not that close to the PowerBooks in performance, even the 14"PB 1 GHz vs the 12" PB. Therefore there is no need for the PBs to jump to G5 yet. Also, if the G5 1.6 and even 1.8 are slower or roughly equal to dual 1.25 G4 on some tasks, then that just shows how powerful the G4 really is. It also appears that a G4 is more powerful clock for clock than a G5, so I'm glad I don't have a 1.2 GHz G5 in my PB. My computer is way fast enough - too many people play down the G4.

I think G5s will enter PowerBooks either in late Spring (the next update) but more realistically one year from now or more. Honestly, these are good notebooks (both iBooks and PowerBooks), if you want one, go get.

slowtreme

Oct 22, 2003, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by nagromme
As for the 14" 1024x768... it's perfect for people who don't like staring at tiny pixels. I'm surprised how popular that model is--but if demand is there, then Apple should keep the model. GRRR the 14" should be able to display 1280x960. what's the point of a bigger screen, if I cant get more screen. you can always make your fonts bigger if you cant see the small stuff... YMMV

Phil Of Mac

Oct 22, 2003, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by nycmacartist
If I were to buy a G4 Ibook, would I be able to install Panther into my G4 tower?

No, the installers that come with the computer only allow you to install it on the same model computer.

Originally posted by besson3c
Is this IBM's G3 with Altivec that Apple has decided to call the G4, or is this produced by Motorola?

The IBM G3+Altivec has never existed outside of speculation and the most unreliable of rumors. It's time to put this one to rest.

evilsprung

Oct 22, 2003, 01:06 PM

After this announcement, it makes my Rev A 12" pb seem like an old geezer from the last century...so sad.

macphoria

Oct 22, 2003, 01:06 PM

macphoria

Oct 22, 2003, 01:11 PM

Even though I welcome G4 into iBook, I wonder about heat problems and shorter battery life associated with more powerful G4. And that brings up another issue; fan noise.

I suppose we'll hear about these issues soon enough.

sethypoo

Oct 22, 2003, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by macphoria
Even though I welcome G4 into iBook, I wonder about heat problems and shorter battery life associated with more powerful G4. And that brings up another issue; fan noise.

I suppose we'll hear about these issues soon enough.

Yes, but wouldn't plastic absorb and dissipate the heat a little better than the aluminium on the PowerBook's?:confused:

edenwaith

Oct 22, 2003, 01:15 PM

Also notice that the low end eMac has a combo drive instead of a CD-ROM drive. Same with the lowest-end iBook. Combo drives all along the iBook line.

I'd say that the G4 comes somewhat as a surprise since there didn't seem to be much (if any?) news about it. There was even a Crazy Apple Rumor which poked fun at the hoo-hum response of the next incarnation of the iBooks. But Apple certainly did a lot better! This might butcher some of its PowerBook sales, but it looks like that they gimped the iBooks just enough to give some nice features to the PB (super drive, extra-wide screen, FW 800).

About the only downer is that Apple no longer has a sub-$1000 laptop any more. Well, maybe in another 6 to 12 months the price will come down. But the iBook of my dreams is coming very near. A combo-drive with at least a 30 GB HD, and adding a G4 on top of that is amazing. Now, get it down below $1000, and I'll be sold.

But with these improved iBooks, it makes it even more tempting to eventually get some as gifts for family members...well, once I have enough money, that is. :)

Phil Of Mac

Oct 22, 2003, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by macphoria
If I were you, I would go with PowerBook. For one, you would save space by having all components in one machine. Second, I'd rather have a machine equipped with all the features by the original manufacturer, than a machine that needs third party equipment and software. Because it is guaranteed to work properly and is not likely to have any issues with future software updates.

Plus, it'll be a lot better than running Photoshop on your old iMac :)

sushi

Oct 22, 2003, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by slowtreme
GRRR the 14" should be able to display 1280x960. what's the point of a bigger screen, if I cant get more screen. you can always make your fonts bigger if you cant see the small stuff... YMMV
Obviously Apple is selling enough of this model to keep offering 14 inch versions.

Plus older folks and those with less than perfect eyesight appreciate bigger pixels!

Sushi

lewdvig

Oct 22, 2003, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by pgwalsh
The celeron processor was a PII for a long time.. Now it's based of the PIV, but it's basically a PII with some PIV extentions.

Knucklehead! The P4 Celeron is a P4 with half or quarter the level 2 cache (depends on the P4 being compared) no HT and a slower FSB. The architecture could not be more different than the PII. Where did you get such nonsense from?

cr2sh

Oct 22, 2003, 01:22 PM

Wow, my chin hit the floor when I typed "macrumors.com" this afternoon. I still can't believe it. Forget everything, jesus.. g5 powerbook is coming.

This is going to drive prices on things like (Powerbook g5's Lombard) into the ground... wow, this is freaking amazing.

edenwaith

Oct 22, 2003, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by memphismac
I've got a Graphite DVSE iMac, but I want to add a portable to my Apple stable.

I'm very excited about the new iBook releases, but I've a PowerBook vs. iBook question.

I know the iBook doesn't have a SuperDrive, and I've read that you can't use iDVD without it. But are there new patches for iDVD3 that would allow me to edit with iDVD and burn with a 3rd party burner?

I was really considering the 15" Powerbook with a Superdrive (i think the 12" screen is just too small). I want to be able to burn DVDs of home movies. Maybe not today, but in a year or two. But the $1000 difference between 15"pb and new 14"ib could buy a lot of other stuff (like a 3rd party burner).

Somebody offer some advice to this notebook newbie,

I'd also go for the PowerBook. You can take the 1 GHz model, and customize it to have a SuperDrive, and that will bring the total up to $2199, so that would be an $800, instead of $1100 if you went for the 1.25 GHz model. Plus you get some great additions for the PB line such as FW 800, more video memory, and up to 2 GB of RAM, whereas the iBook maxes out at 640 MB.

jamilecrire

Oct 22, 2003, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by mrwilly123
anyone want an 12" ibook 800 g3/384/30 gb with applecare?

Yes, I've got one already (900MHz). Just keep it it runs fine and in several years you can still play with OS 9!

Phil Of Mac

Oct 22, 2003, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by cr2sh
Wow, my chin hit the floor when I typed "macrumors.com" this afternoon. I still can't believe it. Forget everything, jesus.. g5 powerbook is coming.

Yeah, maybe next summer.

You can have the consumer and pro product lines on the same processor. Apple did it with the Pismo and original iBook, with the iMac and Power Mac G3, with the iMac and Power Mac G4, and now with the iBook and PowerBook G4. One day all lines will be on the G5 or the G6 as well.

Oirectine

Oct 22, 2003, 01:27 PM

Oh man...

This makes my TiBook even more obsolete... :-/

Oh Apple, I can't stay mad at you for long! Come here and give me a hug! :)

lewdvig

Oct 22, 2003, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by slowtreme
the ATi 9200 is an r250 core I think, not the r300 or r350.

If that's the case, it's really just an ATi 7500/8500 with a new name. This puts it under the performance level of the FX5200. that's pretty poor compared the the midlevel chips like the FX5600 and ATi 9600, and well under the performance of the top end chips in the FX5900 and ATi 9800.

It is very important that you understand this.

Your problem is you are talking 5200 Ultra, but the PB has the 5200GO.

Difference? The 5200Go has half the memory bandwidth (64 bit) and lacks any hidden surface removal technology (z-buffer culling). It is also much, MUCH slower clocked (GPU and RAM).

The memory difference should effectively half the performance (everything else being equal) and the HSR absence means the 5200 is effectively useless for games.

A 5200 desktop card with 64bit memory on a 3.3GHz P4 gets 4600 3dmark points. The same machine with a 8500/9000 gets 9000-12000.

It is possible that this is a 64bit 9200. Such parts existed when the M7 and M9 came out but they were largely derided by the review sites - why include discreet video only to cripple it? My guess is that this 9200 will use a 128 bit memory bus.

The 9200 absolutely decimates the NVidia part. ATI have owned mobile performance since the M7.

You are right, this is a RV280 derived part. The 9200 is a M9/9000 with AGP8x support and a new packaging called flex fit - this may mean upgradability in the future. But not directly from Apple.

Neat features that hopefully will be supported in OS X:

3D Performance – Play The Latest 3d Games Faster
MOBILITY™ RADEON™ 9200 is supports DirectX® 8.1 programmable pixel and vertex shaders and AGP8X.
SMARTSHADER™ technology enables lighting and shadow effects never seen before on a notebook. SMOOTHVISION™ anti-aliasing technology, along with the industry’s best anisotropic filtering, delivers the best visual quality without compromising performance. MOBILITY™ RADEON™ 9200 delivers the advanced 3D performance for notebooks.
Longer Battery Life – Get Industry Leading Power Management
ATI’s third-generation POWERPLAY™ technology provides the most advanced power management solution for notebook graphics today. MOBILITY™ RADEON™ 9200 uses the least power, dynamically adjusting power consumption based on user activity, resulting in longer battery life.
Optimizes performance and battery life, keeping users connected with their customers, suppliers and colleagues longer.
Cutting-edge video technologies
FULLSTREAM™ removes blocky artifacts from video and provides sharper image quality during streaming media playback.
Users can experience integrated video without the hangs; a useful tool to enhance presentation software and other business multimedia applications.
Connect the notebook to a big screen television for a true cinematic experience with no sacrifice in quality.
ATI’s VIDEO IMMERSION™ II technology makes it possible by integrating industry-leading digital video features that not only improves the overall visual experience of watching DVD - but also lowers the power consumption of the notebook, providing longer battery life.
Integrated MPEG-2 decode including iDCT, motion compensation, and hardware sub-picture decoder
8-bit alpha blending and video keying for effective overlay of video and graphics
Multi-monitor management and multi-display support
MOBILITY™ RADEON™ 9200 provides the highest quality output support for DVI-I, TV and CRTs.
ATI’s HYDRAVISION™* technology brings a rich set of multi-monitor features that are exceptionally easy to use.
Connects up to three monitors at one time and HYDRAVISION™ allows user to tailor their desktop to the way they work, improving productivity.

Dr_Maybe

Oct 22, 2003, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by nagromme
I can't tell if the 2-tone is silver or grey, but either way I really like how the look has changed.

* NO MORE CHEESY CLEAR KEYS (they match the inside now)

* Slot-load drive

Where do people get these strange ideas? The two-tone color scheme is the same as on the 2.3 iBooks (the ones with the 900Mhz COMBO).

The only changes in appearance is the Slot-loading drive.

You can't really see the keyboard on the high-res pictures on Apples site, so I can't tell if this has changed. I doubt it. But if you have alternative pictures, please show us.

manu chao

Oct 22, 2003, 01:34 PM

Anybody got the real scoop on the 7455's cache speed?

The L2 cache speed was 1:1 since the 550/667 Powerbooks (link (http://www.macinfo.de/tests/powerbook-g4-800/mercury800-1.html)). Which corresponds to 7455 (and maybe the 7450). In other words, the only indication that these might be 7447 would be the long battery life, longer than the last Ti-books having the same battery capacity. On the other hand the size of the L2 cache would point to an 7445.

lewdvig

Oct 22, 2003, 01:39 PM

The iMac goes back to the store today. These iBooks are exactly what I wanted.

macrumors12345

Oct 22, 2003, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by Shadey
And a 400MHz bus, and a .13 micron, and 256KB of L2 cache... Besides, the Celeron hasn't been based on the Pentium II for about a year and a half.

Actually, 128k L2 cache, but otherwise correct. Though the 400 Mhz bus is deceptive in that most systems only come with DD266 memory anyway, so it is effectively 133 Mhz double data rate (266 Mhz effective bandwidth), much like Apple's DDR266 memory spec on the iBook is deceptive because the FSB is only 133 Mhz single data rate (133 Mhz effective bandwidth).

jettredmont

Oct 22, 2003, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by dho
That could very well be true, but with 6 hours of battery it makes me wonder. They might have not wanted to put in the extra L2 to keep it bellow the current pbook. This could be just what makes an Ibook an Ibook until the wait is over for a pbg5. All they would need to do then is slap on a higher speed IBM "g4" and add more L2.

Is their a limiter on the ibm chip that says it needs to have 512kb L2?

or, not. That is just what makes sense to me.

edit: I am just backing up "theRebel" who originally noticed the 6 hours battery life.

L2 cache is on the chip itself. It is VERY rare for a chip to change how much L2 cache it ships with without an overall relayout of the chip.

IMHO, it is quite unlikely that this is the Moto 7447 chip with less L2 cache than the rest, and it is also fairly unlikely that this is some unreleased IBM chip (750GX). If I were told this isn't the 7445 chip from Moto, I'd definitely lean towards the 750GX possibility over an L2-deprived 7447 from Moto.

Personally, I am more thinking that this is still a 7445 and that the battery life was increased through other means (maybe that 1/3rd extra pound is battery ...)

jettredmont

Oct 22, 2003, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by kristianm
Maybe 10.4 will require a G4 or better? All altivec from now on?

Very unlikely. There are too many G3's out there in use for a new version of OS X to require a G4 or better by next year.

However, yes, I can imagine in 3-5 years the G3 will be phased out of support and THEN the next version of OS X (Alley Cat ... or was that Tabby?) will require Altivec.

illumin8

Oct 22, 2003, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by johnnyjibbs
And if you want to use iDVD you still need a PowerBook :D . Way to go Apple!
Is there any type of hack that can work around this? I heard that iDVD will only work on a G4 with an internal Superdrive, not an external Firewire DVD-R, but I wanted to know if there was a workaround. Although you PowerBook owners say "way to go Apple!" because they've purposefully crippled the iBook, there is no technical reason why they couldn't allow iDVD to run on the iBook now that it has Altivec. What a lame move to cripple your computer system on purpose.

Also, I heard a rumor that these new iBooks are actually using the IBM 750GX/FX processor which is a G3 + Altivec. Anyone know if this is true? If so, I'd love to see benchmarks because it might perform better clock-for-clock than a Motorola G4. The battery life would be much better too because the G3 is such a good mobile processor.

Doraemon

Oct 22, 2003, 02:08 PM

Does anyone know their machine ID (PowerBook6,3 or 4,5 or something else?)?

dho

Oct 22, 2003, 02:09 PM

jettredmont:

Thanks for setting me straight.:)

Also, Steve might have just found a new way to spoof battery life.
"They don't need to know the chip was under-clocked to 400mhz and has the screen completely dimmed and set to 640*480 "

evolu

Oct 22, 2003, 02:11 PM

I can just imagine Windoze users coming to apple.com to download iTunes and be intrigued (sp?) by apple's lower priced products on the home-page.

I think this was all timed very sharply. Very sharp indeed.

latergator116

Oct 22, 2003, 02:17 PM

OMFG!!!!. so unecpected!!!

greenstork

Oct 22, 2003, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by robotrenegade
These are going to be hot!!

Literally, with a Motorola 7455. Apple is pleased to announce the new G4 iBook easy bake oven. Move over ti Books, make way for the new hotpad.

johnnyjibbs

Oct 22, 2003, 02:22 PM

I reckon these new iBooks do have alti-vec, hence the G4 name. G4s have alti-vec. But Apple probably isn't making a big deal about this any more because of potential confusion with the G5.

The G4 apparently has a 128-bit core (the "Velocity engine') and the blurb always mentioned how this was better than "32-bit chips found in traditional computers". So despite the G4 being a 32-bit chip, it looks like it's actually 128-bit. But this could be confusing for consumers and conflict with the 64-bit marketing of the G5 ("worlds first 64-bit computer"). Hence, the need to drop this text from the G4 pages.

raiderz182

Oct 22, 2003, 02:22 PM

well guys i just read 7 pages of arguments about the comparison of the ibook to the powerbook.... what about the ibook vs dell laptops or gateway , etc.

acherkasky

Oct 22, 2003, 02:23 PM

I am very close to buying the 12" Ibook...but I amconcerned about speed. All we will use it for is to surf the internet and send and read email..maybe store some photos.
Is the 12" fast enough and do I need to upgrade it a bit?
thanks

latergator116

Oct 22, 2003, 02:26 PM

Do these now have the nice new keyboards like the powerbooks?

Dros

Oct 22, 2003, 02:27 PM

The tech specs say:
Processor and memory

* 800MHz, 933MHz or 1GHz PowerPC G4 processor with 256K on-chip level 2 cache running at full processor speed
* 133 MHZ system bus
* One of the following memory configurations:
o 256MB of SDRAM (128MB built in and 128MB in SO-DIMM slot)
o 384MB of SDRAM (128MB built in and 256MB in SO-DIMM slot)
o 640MB of SDRAM (128MB built in and 512MB in SO-DIMM slot)
* One open SO-DIMM slot; support for up to 1.25GB

What is the meaning of that last line, the open SO-DIMMM with support for up to 1.25 GB?

greenstork

Oct 22, 2003, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by johnnyjibbs

Will PowerBooks go G5 soon? I probably think not, and I'm not just saying that in the hope that they don't.

While I agree with most of your other points, I just don't get why you wouldn't want the PB to go G5, it makes no sense at all other than buyer remorse on a recently purchased product.

3.1416

Oct 22, 2003, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by pilotgi
I would have preferred that this upgrade included the next gen G3 instead of the G4. I don't need Altivec

Yes, you do. Quartz is heavily optimized for Altivec.

johnnyjibbs

Oct 22, 2003, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by greenstork
While I agree with most of your other points, I just don't get why you wouldn't want the PB to go G5, it makes no sense at all other than buyer remorse on a recently purchased product.
I don't not want the PB to go G5, although having just got a new PB G4 there is buyer remorse if they occur too soon :p

Only kidding! I think they will come but probably later than everyone says but I could be wrong. I don't think these iBook updates mean anything significant for the PB timeline, there's a bigger difference between the iBook and PowerBook at present than most people seem to think.

applemacdude

Oct 22, 2003, 02:36 PM

Finally Apple ditched teh G3:rolleyes:

Now we may see G5 Pb's in MWSF......

degasHo

Oct 22, 2003, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by ColoJohnBoy
Irregardless isn't a word. ;)

From Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary 11th Edition (and http://merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary)

Main Entry: ir·re·gard·less
Etymology: probably blend of irrespective and regardless
Date: circa 1912
nonstandard : REGARDLESS
usage Irregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that "there is no such word." There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.

nslyax

Oct 22, 2003, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by nycmacartist
If I were to buy a G4 Ibook, would I be able to install Panther into my G4 tower?
Yes. When I bought my 800 MHz ibook, I used it's installer to put Jaguar on our CRT imac and went fine. Of course that would be illegal, and I immediately removed it from the imacs HD. ;)

greenstork

Oct 22, 2003, 02:55 PM

macMaestro

Oct 22, 2003, 02:55 PM

What if the Powerbook CAN'T go G5 right now. What if Johnny Ive just can't for the life of him figure how to make a G5 in a laptop under 128°?

mariner77

Oct 22, 2003, 02:58 PM

No matter how you look at it, these new iBook are an UPGRADE, and I'm upgrading from an iBook G3.

First, let's look at what I bought for $1200 (edu):

800 MHz G4
133 MHz bus
DDR RAM
60 GB HDD
Airport Extreme
Bluetooth
USB 2.0
Radeon 9200M
OS X 10.3
50 W-Hr/6 Hr battery
(remember the AlBook 1.25 G4 only has a 45 W-Hr battery!)

compare this with my iBook G3 ($1240):
800 MHz G3
100 MHz bus
SDR RAM
30 GB HDD
Airport
USB 1.1
Radeon 7500M
OS X 10.2
46 W-Hr/5 Hr battery

First you might say, no big deal, G4 is not that much faster than G3 at the same MHz. This has been true for a long time but I think with OS X 10.3 coming, the advantage of G4 is going to become more obvious. Secondly, we are seeing more and more consumer devices supporting USB 2.0, speedwise it's a significant upgrade from USB 1.1. Third, I get 10.3 for "free". Fourth, I love the battery life my iBook, Apple is improving it even more! The iBook is the LONGEST lasting computer on the road. If you carry your computer around all the time like me, it's a BIG deal. Finally, I want to say that 12'' PB has its place and people who bought it shouldn't feel bad about their decision. Personally, I buy the computing power I need, not what I want (plus I'm poor), the iBook G4 is perfect for me. Using car analogy, I think of the old iBook G3 has a Toyota Camery I4, the iBook G4 as a new model Toyota Camery V6, and the 12'' PB as a Lexus ES 300. It's all about maximizing your marginal return. :D

illumin8

Oct 22, 2003, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by ColoJohnBoy
Pretty much like every update - could have been better, could have been worse.
You just used a sentence fragment. Next time you decide to play grammar nazi, please be willing to take it as well as you can dish it out... :D

I'm just kidding. It's just annoying to me to see people waste a post complaining about things which are insignificant. As long as you can understand the concept he was trying to get across, there's no need to correct people unnecessarily.

Just so I'm on-topic: I think I may skip the $2500 1.25 G4-PowerBook purchase and just buy a G4-iBook to tide me over until the G5 PowerBook is out next year sometime. There is no sense in paying $2500 now just to be drooling over another $2500 computer I want next year... It makes much more sense to save money.

rt_brained

Oct 22, 2003, 03:07 PM

A G5 Powerbook is do-able.

I don't have time to comp it up right now, but I figure it's about 6 inches tall, has 7 cooling zones, a perfed metal front and a Zero Halliburton suitcase handle on the side for portability.

sparks9

Oct 22, 2003, 03:07 PM

Apple raised the price from 999 to 1099, that's not good.

greenstork

Oct 22, 2003, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
No, the installers that come with the computer only allow you to install it on the same model computer.

This was not true of my G4 MDD dual 1 GHz. When I could not find the original Jaguar CD for a work computer, I used my home Jaguar CD that came with my MDD. It worked just fine. However, the software restore CD's were computer model specific. This installed classic amongst other things.

rjstanford

Oct 22, 2003, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by raiderz182
well guys i just read 7 pages of arguments about the comparison of the ibook to the powerbook.... what about the ibook vs dell laptops or gateway , etc. Well, on a price standpoint they're starting to compare. For example, take a look at This Dell (http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?cs=19&oc=600Msap&m_1=B14BXNP&m_11=WHXP&m_8=30GB&m_19=IP2100I&kc=6V390&c=us&l=en&s=dhs):

1.4ghz Centrino
256 mb RAM
14" SXGA+ (1400x1050)
30gb Drive

Add:
CD/RW + DVD (Combo Drive)
TrueMobile 1300 Card (Airport Extreme)
Free router (Airport Extreme basestation)

Price goes to $1517 - $200 rebate = $1317 - $100 coupon ( 951F40158E42 ) = $1217

The 12" iBook model (chosen as the cheapest offered) with the AE card is $1198, doesn't come with free shipping, and doesn't include a free wireless router. And its quite a bit slower, and has lower resolution. It is available with Mac OS X however, which is its saving grace. Don't forget to compare street price to street price. You could add $200 to the Apple to get the 14" version (still lower res, and the Dell has 1024x768 as a no cost option), the Dell price would go up by $59 for the larger hard drive.

So you've got fairly comparable offerings and prices, with a significantly faster CPU on the Dell (yes, really) and the convenience of Panther on the Apple. Your choice now depends more on your specific needs (number crunching/performance vs. more casual frequent OS interaction and/or hatred of Windows) - the price premium for the Apple is within 10-20% or so.

-Richard

greenstork

Oct 22, 2003, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by sethypoo
Yes, but wouldn't plastic absorb and dissipate the heat a little better than the aluminium on the PowerBook's?:confused:

No

Lancetx

Oct 22, 2003, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by sparks9
Apple raised the price from 999 to 1099, that's not good.

Well, for that $100, you're going from a G3 to a G4, CD-ROM drive to a combo drive, 128MB RAM to 256MB, Airport wireless capability up to Airport Extreme, Radeon 7500 to 9200, etc, etc. It's well worth the $100 "increase" although really it's more like a $200 decrease from the old G3/900 combo drive iBook. And if you still want a CD-ROM based model, you can get that through the educational store for $949. But I for one am glad Apple has gone with at least combo drives across the board for all systems now.

latergator116

Oct 22, 2003, 03:17 PM

ech. I dont like the new default background on panther. It looks too much like the original one

gotohamish

Oct 22, 2003, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by woodsey
Sadly you are very mistaken. The 900 iBook would trounce your TiBook in everyday performance, especially graphics. Your G4 would only be faster in altivec operations.

And Im not just having a go at you. I own a TiBook too.

Okay smart boy, but I have both next to me, every day, and in EVERYDAY use, the TiBook is faster.

Faster in the finder, faster in all apps, perhaps not for gamers, but I don't play games on them.

I'm only telling it as I see it.

acherkasky

Oct 22, 2003, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by rjstanford
Well, on a price standpoint they're starting to compare. For example, take a look at This Dell (http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?cs=19&oc=600Msap&m_1=B14BXNP&m_11=WHXP&m_8=30GB&m_19=IP2100I&kc=6V390&c=us&l=en&s=dhs):

1.4ghz Centrino
256 mb RAM
14" SXGA+ (1400x1050)
30gb Drive

Add:
CD/RW + DVD (Combo Drive)
TrueMobile 1300 Card (Airport Extreme)
Free router (Airport Extreme basestation)

Price goes to $1517 - $200 rebate = $1317 - $100 coupon ( 951F40158E42 ) = $1217

The 12" iBook model (chosen as the cheapest offered) with the AE card is $1198, doesn't come with free shipping, and doesn't include a free wireless router. And its quite a bit slower, and has lower resolution. It is available with Mac OS X however, which is its saving grace. Don't forget to compare street price to street price. You could add $200 to the Apple to get the 14" version (still lower res, and the Dell has 1024x768 as a no cost option), the Dell price would go up by $59 for the larger hard drive.

So you've got fairly comparable offerings and prices, with a significantly faster CPU on the Dell (yes, really) and the convenience of Panther on the Apple. Your choice now depends more on your specific needs (number crunching/performance vs. more casual frequent OS interaction and/or hatred of Windows) - the price premium for the Apple is within 10-20% or so.

-Richard

Thanks for the above...however, being anovice in regrads to much of the tech stuff...will the 12" IBook suit me well for email and for surfing? I do like the 12 inch size (so does my wife!)

Phil Of Mac

Oct 22, 2003, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by dho
jettredmont:

Thanks for setting me straight.:)

Also, Steve might have just found a new way to spoof battery life.
"They don't need to know the chip was under-clocked to 400mhz and has the screen completely dimmed and set to 640*480 "

With an LCD it actually takes more effort to simulate a lower-than-native resolution than to actually display the native rez.

latergator116

Oct 22, 2003, 03:42 PM

So does anyone know if they have imporved keyoboards??

Lancetx

Oct 22, 2003, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by rjstanford
The 12" iBook model (chosen as the cheapest offered) with the AE card is $1198, doesn't come with free shipping, and doesn't include a free wireless router.

Everything on Apple's store site has free ground shipping as long as you order at least $50. It's been that way now for a good while.

Plutoniq

Oct 22, 2003, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by Dros
The tech specs say:
Processor and memory

* 800MHz, 933MHz or 1GHz PowerPC G4 processor with 256K on-chip level 2 cache running at full processor speed
* 133 MHZ system bus
* One of the following memory configurations:
o 256MB of SDRAM (128MB built in and 128MB in SO-DIMM slot)
o 384MB of SDRAM (128MB built in and 256MB in SO-DIMM slot)
o 640MB of SDRAM (128MB built in and 512MB in SO-DIMM slot)
* One open SO-DIMM slot; support for up to 1.25GB

What is the meaning of that last line, the open SO-DIMMM with support for up to 1.25 GB?

I was just about to point that out until i read your post. Obviously, it means that the Ibooks, with 128mb of inbuilt RAM soldered to the board, can accomidate the new 1gb RAM chips (very expensive!!!!) for a max of 1.2gb (well, more like 1.25gb). Apple, however, will only offer BTO up to 640mb.

AdamR01

Oct 22, 2003, 03:51 PM

Does anyone else think its odd that Apple doesnt have a PDF with all of the technical specs of the new iBook? All of the other models do and I could swear that there was a PDF available right away when the new PowerBooks came out.

avus

Oct 22, 2003, 03:59 PM

If the iBook gets a G4, AP Extreme, DDR RAM, slot loading drive, etc., then Apple should give the AlBook 12-inch Firewire 800 and Gigabit Ethernet...like, RIGHT NOW! I believe that the next Powerbook "12-inch" revision would come with another G4 w/ L3 cache (I have no clue about the 15-inch and the 17-inch) so I would wait and continue using the iBook 800 (Panther would speed it up, right?) until the next rev. of the PowerBook.

Snowy_River

Oct 22, 2003, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by LinuxGigolo
Interesting. Although, there's no mention of Altivec on the AlBook pages, either.

Actually, it is. Here's a run-down...

From the PowerMac G4 tech specs:
http://www.physics.arizona.edu/~wathen/images/G4.jpg

From the PowerMac G5 tech specs:
http://www.physics.arizona.edu/~wathen/images/G5.jpg

From the PowerBook tech specs:
http://www.physics.arizona.edu/~wathen/images/PowerBook.jpg

From the iMac tech specs:
http://www.physics.arizona.edu/~wathen/images/iMac.jpg

From the eMac tech specs:
http://www.physics.arizona.edu/~wathen/images/eMac.jpg

And, finally, the only G4 that doesn't mention the velocity engine, from the new iBook tech specs:
http://www.physics.arizona.edu/~wathen/images/iBook.jpg

Now, I'm not saying that this necessarily means anything. Indeed, it appears that the iBook and the eMac are running on the same processor (other specs appearing equivalent). However, until someone gets a first-hand look at the new iBooks, I don't think that anyone is in a position to say "IT IS THIS WAY, SO GET OVER IT", or "IT ISN'T THAT WAY, SO STOP TALKING ABOUT IT".

Just my two cents worth... if that...

Marlon_JBT

Oct 22, 2003, 04:06 PM

I'm speechless...

and kicking myself! ARGH!!!

I always thought I had a G4 iBook!

Dros

Oct 22, 2003, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by Plutoniq
I was just about to point that out until i read your post. Obviously, it means that the Ibooks, with 128mb of inbuilt RAM soldered to the board, can accomidate the new 1gb RAM chips (very expensive!!!!) for a max of 1.2gb (well, more like 1.25gb). Apple, however, will only offer BTO up to 640mb.

Thanks, I thought it was only semi-obvious :) , just because it seems like "support for only 640MB" is being constantly mentioned as a difference between the iBooks and Powerbooks. The 1 GB SO-DIMM from Crucial is $489, it appears. If max memeory was such a concern then the 2 slots of the Powerbook will reduce the price differential quite a bit.

arizona_kimbo

Oct 22, 2003, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by evilsprung
After this announcement, it makes my Rev A 12" pb seem like an old geezer from the last century...so sad.

I agree. With the educational discount I could have bought a 14" ibook for less than the Rev. A 12" Powerbook. I still love my Powerbook, but this sucks.

macmax

Oct 22, 2003, 04:20 PM

well , i am buying one.

macmax

Oct 22, 2003, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by arizona_kimbo
I agree. With the educational discount I could have bought a 14" ibook for less than the Rev. A 12" Powerbook. I still love my Powerbook, but this sucks.

how much is the educational discount???

RajK

Oct 22, 2003, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by macmax
how much is the educational discount???

$100 in the US.

#Johnny5

Oct 22, 2003, 04:24 PM

Yes, these new G4-based iBooks are great. And they're priced great, too. But I hate how Apple always alienates such a huge part of their potential userbase by dropping older, slower hardware from their lineups. I want a portable Mac to use as a secondary computer to my tower. And that means I don't want to spend more than 600, 700 dollars on it. I want it to use almost in the same way I would use a PDA, only be able to do real work on it (Office, Quicken, iTunes, etc.). That means I have no use for Altivec - even if the whole OS is faster. I just want a cheap Mac. Right now, Apple is selling the G3 iBook in the Education site for $900. The G4 iBook sells there for only $50 more, and has the better video card, DDR ram, not to mention the G4. So Apple could have easily set the price of the G3 iBook closer to $700 and still pulled a HUGE profit. And people like me might actually but one. Now, I'm stuck looking at Dells, cause I only have so much money to spend, and $1000 is a few hundred too much. Or more likely than not, I'll end up sitting with what I have for another year until I win the lottery.

The iPod is the same way - if Apple would just offer a cheaper version, they would be selling a TON more!

macmax

Oct 22, 2003, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by RajK
$100 in the US.

thanks

LethalWolfe

Oct 22, 2003, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by illumin8
Is there any type of hack that can work around this? I heard that iDVD will only work on a G4 with an internal Superdrive, not an external Firewire DVD-R, but I wanted to know if there was a workaround. Although you PowerBook owners say "way to go Apple!" because they've purposefully crippled the iBook, there is no technical reason why they couldn't allow iDVD to run on the iBook now that it has Altivec. What a lame move to cripple your computer system on purpose.

:rolleyes:

How do you think product tiers are created? Companies don't build completely different models for each price point from the ground up. They contrust a top tier model and then remove features to create lower priced models. Go look at any tiered product be it computers, cars, or TVs and the lower end products will almost always just be "crippled", as you put it, versions of the higher end products.

Lethal

lewdvig

Oct 22, 2003, 04:26 PM

My bet is that it has the new 750 from IBM. Apple can call it whatever they want.

Who amoung us will be so brave as to open an iBook up?

kwikdeth

Oct 22, 2003, 04:27 PM

i still don't understand why Apple has to punish users for wanting a small form factor. Every time Apple comes out with one of these, they always cripple the small machine with stupid limitations. It goes for both the 12" Ibooks and the 12" AlBook. I would be very willing to pay a premium for having a more powerful processor in my powerbook. While the 17" is badass and I love it, the 12" is a much more useful machine for me and it just pisses me off that its always underpowered. This is a trend that Apple has followed ever since the days of the Duo. If they wanted to really make a bang, they should make a 12" AlBook with a 1.33 processor and radeon 9600 mobility, dammit! I would be willing to pay a much higher price point for a machine with that kind of power. sure, there would likely be more heat issues, so that is a technological hurdle, but seriously! there is no reason for this! Make a 12" AlBook with 1.33 and radeon 9600, capable of holding at least 1GB of RAM, and a superdrive. (and for the cherry on top, backlit keyboard) That would be worth $2700 or so to me. I just don't get why Apple has to punish the real power-users (isn't this what they're trying to turn us all into? Doesn't it occur to them that as cool as they are, some people simply don't need 17" of screen space when traveling with a laptop?) And of course, let's not mention the regular crippling of the small laptop with glaring, idiotic omissions, like the lack of L3 cache in the Rev A 12" alBook.... what the ****???? I know that there has to be a portion of the market that wants these... I sure do. I want a badass powerbook that's going to fit in my bag, not a gigantic behemoth that has to go in it's own special case so even more people can go, "hey, let's mug that guy and take his 17" powerbook..." when it could easily be hiding in my run-down, nasty P.O.S. army bag from the Surplus Store that even a bum would think twice about taking.

[mod. edit - Don't circumvent the profanity filter.]

lewdvig

Oct 22, 2003, 04:33 PM

Amen Bro

The 12" with the top of the line spec would sell like crazy in Japan and for people that want ultracompacts. I think it would sell for more, frankly. I for one, hate the 14" iBook.

14" notebooks are the value segment. This iBook has to compete with crappy plastic Athlon notebooks that run circles around the iBook in absolute terms for way less money. Smaller is suppoed to cost more.

The iBook smokes the Sony 505 series in form factor.

Go to Dynamism.com to see what epople are prepared to pay for fast ultra slims.

Anyone can make a 17" portable brick. Prices for good ultra-slims have always been higher. They have higher prestige value. Executive notebooks is what I think they are often referred to.

aras

Oct 22, 2003, 04:36 PM

Guess ibook release makes the G3 processor generally extinct.

no more G3 machines right?

fabsgwu

Oct 22, 2003, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by sethwerkheiser
Wow. We just bought our 900mhz G3 in May for $1299, and now a 800mhz G4 is just $1099. That's okay, the wife can have the older one, I'll get a G4 :)

When you do, make sure to do some side-to-side speed tests :)

DakotaGuy

Oct 22, 2003, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by lewdvig
My bet is that it has the new 750 from IBM. Apple can call it whatever they want.

Who amoung us will be so brave as to open an iBook up?

My bet is that it's a Motorola processor.

mariner77

Oct 22, 2003, 04:46 PM

To quinch further rumors. I just called Apple for a direct clarification regarding whether the new iBook G4 has a velocity engine. The answer is "Yes, all G4's have velocity engine." 'Nuf said.

But they wouldn't tell me if the G4 is a 7455 or a 7457. I really wish it's the low powered version of 7447. It's the perfect chip for the iBook.

mariner77

Oct 22, 2003, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by fabsgwu
When you do, make sure to do some side-to-side speed tests :)

Even better. I'll do side by side speed test of iBook G3 800MHz vs the iBook G4 800MHz, running Panther. :D

scem0

Oct 22, 2003, 04:57 PM

Not a bad update. Not a great one either though.

I think apple needs to get their prices down though.

scem0

manu chao

Oct 22, 2003, 04:59 PM

- Could it be that the velocity engine is not mentioned anymore because all Apple computers now have it? It is not a feature that distinguishes one computer from another anymore.

- All those doing price comparisons between PCs and Macs, why don't you include the cost of these small upgrades that a necessary to bring a PC at least somewhat closer in terms of software. I am not an expert on Windows software, but would it not be fairer to compare XP Professional (instead of Home) with Mac OS X, same for iPhoto etc.
It's fine to say a PC is cheaper but Mac OS X is better, but what about saying a PC plus some additional software is only a little bit cheaper than a Mac, but is still beaten in terms of software/OS by Mac OS X?

- I know it is not the same, but the really low-end Macs are used Macs (not that used Macs would be really cheap).

CaptainScarlet

Oct 22, 2003, 05:00 PM

gotohamish

Oct 22, 2003, 05:06 PM

Here's an interesting note...

iBook, 12", bluetooth, 60GB, airportX etc.

960 pounds (w/edu discount)

Same thing on the US apple store with NO discount...

780 pounds.

You can almost get to NYC and pick one up for the same price, and the warranty is international so it makes no difference.

H

gotohamish

Oct 22, 2003, 05:07 PM

Also, for those in the market, there will be some SWEET G3 iBook clearances very soon.

lewdvig

Oct 22, 2003, 05:08 PM

This is new, isn't it?

Tony Hawk Pro Skater 4 is part of the software bundle. Cool.

I imagine this means the game runs nice at native resolution. I am really starting to like this machine.

OS X, iLife, and even the ability to play some games. All at a good price.

johnnyjibbs

Oct 22, 2003, 05:13 PM

Has anyone noticed that on the 14" build-to-order options, you can replace the combo with a CD-ROM drive (takes the price down £80) but you can't on the 12" model. Seems like a strange option, considering as I earlier commented on the fact that today saw the end of the CD-ROM-only Mac being sold.

lewdvig

Oct 22, 2003, 05:14 PM

I think this is what I am going to get:

• 256MB DDR266 SDRAM (128MB built-in & 128MB SO-DIMM)
• 60GB Ultra ATA drive
• Combo Drive (DVD-ROM/CD-RW)
• AirPort Extreme Card
• Bluetooth Module
• Keyboard/Mac OS X - U.S. English
• 12-inch TFT XGA display
• 800MHz PowerPC G4
• ATI Mobility Radeon 9200 w/ 32MB DDR video memory

Subtotal $1,835.00 CDN

lewdvig

Oct 22, 2003, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by lewdvig
My bet is that it has the new 750 from IBM. Apple can call it whatever they want.

Who amoung us will be so brave as to open an iBook up?

Good thing I did not wager money :D

rjstanford

Oct 22, 2003, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by Lancetx
Everything on Apple's store site has free ground shipping as long as you order at least $50. It's been that way now for a good while. Sorry, my mistake!

-Richard

rjstanford

Oct 22, 2003, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by #Johnny5
I just want a cheap Mac. Right now, Apple is selling the G3 iBook in the Education site for $900. The G4 iBook sells there for only $50 more, and has the better video card, DDR ram, not to mention the G4. So Apple could have easily set the price of the G3 iBook closer to $700 and still pulled a HUGE profit. Not necessarily. Video cards, processors, et cetera - just because they're "better" doesn't mean that they're "more expensive". In fact, especially with things like RAM, more recent (but not brand new) is often cheaper, just like the G5 costs Apple less to buy than the G4.

-Richard

Chealion

Oct 22, 2003, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by acherkasky
I am very close to buying the 12" Ibook...but I amconcerned about speed. All we will use it for is to surf the internet and send and read email..maybe store some photos.
Is the 12" fast enough and do I need to upgrade it a bit?
thanks

For what you want to do, a 400Mhz second hand iMac will be more then suffecient! Browsing the web, and checking email, heck I still do that on my 10 year old Performa. Browsing is very slow though, as that 68LC040 just can't render fast enough. But for email its more then adequate :)

rjstanford

Oct 22, 2003, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by manu chao
All those doing price comparisons between PCs and Macs, why don't you include the cost of these small upgrades that a necessary to bring a PC at least somewhat closer in terms of software. I am not an expert on Windows software, but would it not be fairer to compare XP Professional (instead of Home) with Mac OS X, same for iPhoto etc.
It's fine to say a PC is cheaper but Mac OS X is better, but what about saying a PC plus some additional software is only a little bit cheaper than a Mac, but is still beaten in terms of software/OS by Mac OS X? Not really - actually XP home and professional are almost identical (they are identical for all important purposes unless you're a mid-sized or larger business). As for the software - some you win, some you lose. If you added "MS Office" to the mix, the PCs would get it much cheaper. How about a progressive-scan DVD player? $10 for the PC add-in to WMP, N/A for the mac. Expose? Not available for the PC. The Windows image stuff isn't iPhoto, but iPhoto gets spanked by most $100 products that would fill in the gap... some you win, some you lose. Heck, add in the 125dpi screens available (as free options) on most PC laptops and the Macs can't match them. So the previous comparisons are about as reasonable as you're going to be able to get, I'm afraid.

-Richard

bankshot

Oct 22, 2003, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by nycmacartist
If I were to buy a G4 Ibook, would I be able to install Panther into my G4 tower?

This'll probably get lost in the noise, and maybe someone else already answered but I didn't check all 10 pages of comments so far...

Your software restore disc(s) that come with the iBook will probably NOT install Panther on your tower. The OS installer on the software restore discs that come with new hardware is not the same as the general installer that comes with the retail boxed OS. I bought an iBook a year ago with Jaguar preloaded. I had also already bought Jaguar for my G4 tower but hadn't bothered installing it yet. Since I was reinstalling to customize, I figured I might as well do both machines at once, and why not from the same disc since both were legally paid up? I stuck the iBook's Jaguar disc into the G4 and got a message like "This software cannot be installed on this computer." So apparently it was checking to be sure it was running on an iBook before continuing.

Maybe it'll be that way again, maybe not. And either way, the only "legal" way to do it is to pay for Panther for any existing machine(s) too... but let's not get into a big piracy discussion this time. :rolleyes:

nologo

Oct 22, 2003, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by Plutoniq
I was just about to point that out until i read your post. Obviously, it means that the Ibooks, with 128mb of inbuilt RAM soldered to the board, can accomidate the new 1gb RAM chips (very expensive!!!!) for a max of 1.2gb (well, more like 1.25gb). Apple, however, will only offer BTO up to 640mb.

Umm...

If the iBook supported a 1GB SODIMM, then the max of the iBook would be 1.1GB, not 1.25. The iBook G4 only has 128mb ram built in, and one extra slot. Thus, 1,128megs of ram.

Or is there something that I'm missing?

nslyax

Oct 22, 2003, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by nologo
Umm...

If the iBook supported a 1GB SODIMM, then the max of the iBook would be 1.1GB, not 1.25. The iBook G4 only has 128mb ram built in, and one extra slot. Thus, 1,128megs of ram.

Or is there something that I'm missing?

True. But 1GB = 1024
so 1024 +128 = 1152 which is over 1150 so rounds up to 1200. That's the only way I can figure out. Honestly, I don't know where Apple got 1.2 from.

BTW, anyone know when I move up from "newbie"?

Phil Of Mac

Oct 22, 2003, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by #Johnny5
The iPod is the same way - if Apple would just offer a cheaper version, they would be selling a TON more!

Would they sell enough more to offset the lost of profit per unit? If there was a $200 iPod, lots of people who bought $400 iPods would buy the $200 instead. That's lost money, man.

By the way, if it was a G3+Altivec from IBM, don't you think IBM would have announced such a chip beforehand? No. They didn't. Maybe it's a G3 without Altivec? Then it's illegal to call it a G4. Truth in advertising.

bankshot

Oct 22, 2003, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by rjstanford
Not necessarily. Video cards, processors, et cetera - just because they're "better" doesn't mean that they're "more expensive". In fact, especially with things like RAM, more recent (but not brand new) is often cheaper, just like the G5 costs Apple less to buy than the G4.

Exactly. I just posted about this on another forum, but it bears repeating. The value to the consumer may be less than the cost for Apple to produce the thing. Just because the market now values a G3 iBook at around $700 (or less) doesn't mean that it costs less than that to make. It may well cost Apple $800 to build one. Obviously they don't want to lose money per sale just to gain marketshare, so they can't sell older/slower/worse products at lower prices like that! Apple products tend to have a minimum quality standard, and to meet that, there's a minimum cost of production, regardless of whether the technology is 2 years old and slow.

It's exactly the same thing with the iPod. People scream that they should continue selling 5 GB iPods but for $100-200. If Apple could make them and still turn a profit at that price point, I'm sure they would do it in a heartbeat. But just using a lower capacity hard drive doesn't magically cause the whole thing to cost less to build. I'll bet the iPod costs at least $200 to manufacture with those electronics in that form factor, with any capacity hard drive of that physical size -- even half a gig. There's a cost barrier there, and it's higher than the relative value to the market, so that product simply can't sell for profit. It will never exist.

So why can the PC manufacturers sell $500 and under PCs? One, because of economies of scale - a 95+% PC market affords them this luxury versus Apple. And two, because of Apple's minimum quality standards as I mentioned before. Apple as a company simply isn't interested in making a $500 piece of crap computer that sucks just to gain marketshare. So while I'm sure they'd love to offer a quality lower end computer at sub $500 prices and maintain profitability, it simply can't be done.

rdowns

Oct 22, 2003, 06:24 PM

Originally posted by Abercrombieboy
If I had a million dollars to bet, I would bet these are Motorola G4 processors. The IBM G3 is dead.

If you had a million dollars, you wouldn't be using an

iMac DV 400 "Blueberry" named "Macky"

or an

iBook 600 Combo Drive named "Booker"

:D

Potus

Oct 22, 2003, 06:39 PM

Originally posted by TrenchMouth
i think these things are great, and i can understand where some people might be annoyed with the price/performance compaired to the 12 powerbook. but this thing is great for me. i dont want to shell out $1700 right now. 1200 is just right and thats how much i would be spending for the 12ibookG4 with 640Megs of Ram. i am coming from a 500Mhz G3 ibook though, so this to me will be a huge upgrade. its all perspective, and from mine its a great deal. i like it to be small, i dont need all the power in the world, but and this will be a good step up from what i have right now. good job Apple.

Hey, I'm typing this on a 300Mhz Blueberry iBook w/320Megs of Ram running 10.2.8.which works like a champ and looks as good as the day I unpacked it. I will be upgrading any day, but it's not because this isn't a great computer. Others have better computers but this one has served me well and will continue to serve when I get my next laptop. That is what I appreciate about Apple: QUALITY and the fact that I can usuaully get a computer that's ahead of the pack for a price I can afford that will last me many years.

rdowns

Oct 22, 2003, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by applemacdude
Finally Apple ditched teh G3:rolleyes:

Now we may see G5 Pb's in MWSF......

Nope, G5 iMac.

jouster

Oct 22, 2003, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by lewdvig
My bet is that it has the new 750 from IBM. Apple can call it whatever they want.

Who amoung us will be so brave as to open an iBook up?

Kodawarisan will tear one apart the day it arrives.

cb911

Oct 22, 2003, 06:45 PM

wow! :D i was really surprised to see Apple bring out new iBooks. i guess they had to come, but i just didn't expect it.

nice to see that they have a slot loading drive as well. :D

can't wait for Kodwarisan to get their hands on one...

Potus

Oct 22, 2003, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by acherkasky
Thanks for the above...however, being anovice in regrads to much of the tech stuff...will the 12" IBook suit me well for email and for surfing? I do like the 12 inch size (so does my wife!) Lol. But to answer your question: the iBook would be fantastic for the use your wife would put it to. Check out the eMac as well, if she doesn't need portability.

Potus

Oct 22, 2003, 06:54 PM

Originally posted by bankshot
Exactly. I just posted about this on another forum, but it bears repeating. The value to the consumer may be less than the cost for Apple to produce the thing. Just because the market now values a G3 iBook at around $700 (or less) doesn't mean that it costs less than that to make. It may well cost Apple $800 to build one. Obviously they don't want to lose money per sale just to gain marketshare, so they can't sell older/slower/worse products at lower prices like that! Apple products tend to have a minimum quality standard, and to meet that, there's a minimum cost of production, regardless of whether the technology is 2 years old and slow.

It's exactly the same thing with the iPod. People scream that they should continue selling 5 GB iPods but for $100-200. If Apple could make them and still turn a profit at that price point, I'm sure they would do it in a heartbeat. But just using a lower capacity hard drive doesn't magically cause the whole thing to cost less to build. I'll bet the iPod costs at least $200 to manufacture with those electronics in that form factor, with any capacity hard drive of that physical size -- even half a gig. There's a cost barrier there, and it's higher than the relative value to the market, so that product simply can't sell for profit. It will never exist.

So why can the PC manufacturers sell $500 and under PCs? One, because of economies of scale - a 95+% PC market affords them this luxury versus Apple. And two, because of Apple's minimum quality standards as I mentioned before. Apple as a company simply isn't interested in making a $500 piece of crap computer that sucks just to gain marketshare. So while I'm sure they'd love to offer a quality lower end computer at sub $500 prices and maintain profitability, it simply can't be done.

I couldn't have said it better myself. In fact, I wouldn't have because I'd never thought of it in those terms. Thanks.

jettredmont

Oct 22, 2003, 06:59 PM

Originally posted by Dros
The tech specs say:
Processor and memory

* 800MHz, 933MHz or 1GHz PowerPC G4 processor with 256K on-chip level 2 cache running at full processor speed
* 133 MHZ system bus
* One of the following memory configurations:
o 256MB of SDRAM (128MB built in and 128MB in SO-DIMM slot)
o 384MB of SDRAM (128MB built in and 256MB in SO-DIMM slot)
o 640MB of SDRAM (128MB built in and 512MB in SO-DIMM slot)
* One open SO-DIMM slot; support for up to 1.25GB

What is the meaning of that last line, the open SO-DIMMM with support for up to 1.25 GB?

No, it does not mean support for 1GB SO-DIMMs.

It says "One open SO-DIMM slot", in addition to the on-board RAM and the one slot that is filled with some amount of memory in each shipped configuration.

This means that you would be able to (today) go out and buy a 512MB memory stick and add that to your iBook for a total of 1.125GB of RAM.

Their math doesn't add up, though, unless the on-board RAM can also be upped to 256MB through minor surgery. You can't get 1.25GB of RAM if you start off with one unmatched 128MB chunk of memory ...

GregA

Oct 22, 2003, 07:20 PM

Originally posted by jayb2000
<heavily snipped>
I can't imagine this would hurt PB sales.

14" iBook - Subtotal $1,648.00
12" PowerBook - Subtotal $1,748.00

So, for $100 more, you get better external display capabilities, double the cache, higher RAM capacity, it weighs a pound less.What is "better external display capabilities". I've never really looked into this - so am I understanding right that I could use an external display separately to my laptop display (on the PowerBook ONLY) - ie making my desktop larger.

When I edit video I need screen real-estate. Having the laptop screen for some windows, and an external display for the rest, would be great. I take it PowerBooks do this but iBooks don't?

Thanks... btw what do I look for in the Specs that tells me if a machine can do this? (incl. iMacs etc)

theRebel

Oct 22, 2003, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Then it's illegal to call it a G4. Truth in advertising.

Where is the definition of G4 that says that it has to include Altivec?

Phil Of Mac

Oct 22, 2003, 07:24 PM

Originally posted by theRebel
Where is the definition of G4 that says that it has to include Altivec?

Everywhere. Almost everything written about the G4 since 1999 in print and on the web, and in Apple's advertising, says the G4 is a PowerPC processor with Velocity Engine. Not to mention Motorola's use of the term G4.

lmalave

Oct 22, 2003, 07:26 PM

Yeeeeehaww!

See my sig: I had purchased a PB 12" with AirportExtreme for $1498 with edu.

Fortunately, I was able to change that order for a new 12" iBook with maxed out RAM and a whopping 60GB drive for only $1345!!!

I'm getting a computer that more closely suits my needs (I never use external monitors and 640MB memory is more than I need), and for less money!

I'm freakin psyched! I'll probably have to wait a couple more weeks for the new iBook (especially since it's BTO), but it's well worth it.

P.S. Does anyone know how soon these babies are shipping?

Edit: OK, I see it says it will ship in 3-5 days.

FYI, I noticed that Edu users can order the 12" with CD-ROM drive (instead of combo) for only $949. If I'm not mistaken, that's the same price that the low-end iBook was going for before, since there was only a $50 Edu discount on the iBook. So Edu users have nothing to complain about: they're getting a much better computer for $949 than they did previously, and they're getting a G4 12" combo drive model for $200 less than the previous G3 combo drive model. Hopefully a lot more students will consider iBooks after this upgrade.

wdlove

Oct 22, 2003, 07:27 PM

Goodbye and good luck G3, may you rest in peace. The new G4 iBook should be a great machine for students.

jettredmont

Oct 22, 2003, 07:35 PM

Originally posted by kwikdeth
i still don't understand why Apple has to punish users for wanting a small form factor. Every time Apple comes out with one of these, they always cripple the small machine with stupid limitations. It goes for both the 12" Ibooks and the 12" AlBook. I would be very willing to pay a premium for having a more powerful processor in my powerbook.

There are three primary concerns with a smaller form factor:

1) Physical space. Less room outside == less room inside. Things like a G4 supporting L3 cache and the L3 cache itself both take up internal space.

2) Heat dissipation. Less room inside also == less air moving around with an acceptable level of noise. It is significantly harder to cool a CPU with 0.1" of space than it is with 1" of space.

3) Usability: Durability, noise, comfort, etc. You can save some internal space by making the "shell" thinner, but then you make your product more fragile. You can skimp on shock absorbing structures, but then any drop (more likely to happen to a small object than a larger one, in general) kills it. You can crank the fans up to pump 300MPH winds through your laptop, but I don't think your non-deaf users would appreciate it.

Quite frankly, if you've looked inside a 12" laptop from Apple you should be astounded at how well they've been put together. No space is wasted.

That means, of course, that it will take a significant effort to put in a larger CPU or a larger battery or a massively heat-generating GPU or a L3 cache or whatever. And, no, you're offer of an extra thousand bucks just won't pay for that kind of engineering effort.

Please tell: who in the computer industry is putting together a laptop like you described? I can't see anyone doing it. There is a reason ...