Dell DJ Price and Specs?

[MacRumors]

One reader notes that Dell made a small revelation (http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/sna.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs&~folder=topic&~topic=dhs_solutions_mp3) on their website, providing some pricing and specs for their upcoming Dell Digital Jukebox (Dell DJ).

The "Dell Music Bundle" ($343 retail, $268 now) is described in the "Learn more..." link. This bundle includes a Dell DJ 15 Music Player, Sony Elements of Style Headphones, Dell DJ Car Adapter Kit, and Dell DJ Sport Case.

The "Dell DJ 15 Digital Music Player" is a 15GB of music with USB 2.0 and "up to 16hours" of battery life according to Dell.

Also described and mentioned by name is the MusicMatch software which will serve as the jukebox software for the Dell DJ.

[arn]

So, current iPod is:

10GB - $299.00
20GB - $399.00

Dell DJ looks to be 15GB for less than $300.

(I don't know how much those accessories cost retail)

arn

[peterj1967]

16 hrs of battery life would be pretty impressive

[Stike]

Music Match! I love that! Most PC people are switching from Musicmatch to iTunes now, because they hate it...
So, the iPod will beat the crap outta thhe Dell DJ :D

[jon snow]

I agree, musicmatch was unusable. I own two ipods, a 5g and 30g, and while xplay was a good piece of software for my windows laptop, it was nothing compared to the ease of use and compatibility of itunes. Even with more battery life, there is no way that this Dell produce will be close to the style and functionality of the ipod.

[daRAT]

Musicmatch is the weak link in the Dell DJ package, unless they have a 'special' edition that is a simple version.

My biggest complaint about MM was the "nag" screens wanting you to buy MM.

Got Itunes loaded on the Mac and the XP box, so I am happy :]

Thanks Apple!

[mathematician]

Note that people will first check the hard facts on MP3 Players (iPod versus Dell DJ) and the Dell DJ wins in Battery Life, Storage Size, Equipment (the $300 model).

Then they will complain that
- MusicMatch is not very nice.
- iTunes doesn't even work with the Dell DJ

Apple has to lower the price for the iPod to make AAC/p a standard!

[aethier]

Originally posted by mathematician
Note that people will first check the hard facts on MP3 Players (iPod versus Dell DJ) and the Dell DJ wins in Battery Life, Storage Size, Euipment.


they are saying that the Dell Dj is 15 gigs, last i checked the ipod goes up to 40

aethier

[tutubibi]

Originally posted by mathematician
Note that people will first check the hard facts on MP3 Players (iPod versus Dell DJ) and the Dell DJ wins in Battery Life, Storage Size, Euipment.

Then they will complain that
- MusicMatch is not very nice.
- iTunes doesn't even work with the Dell DJ



Excelent post . That's what Joe Average is likely to do.

[ReelFocused]

A little competition could be a good thing.

[duce]

That's the point isn't it. Apple needs to let Dell and MM create their own technology, and not let them ride on Apple's coat tails. Dell is trying to promote specs not function. Same old game "my MHz are bigger than your MHz.
I wonder if this will go the way of IBM when IT choose IBM and later DELL because you could not be faulted to choose the perceived leaders. When ever you ask PC user why they bought a DELL they have no real justifiable reason. Only that they have those at work and my IT guy recommend it. Dammed lemmings every where.
Sorry for the rant, but it is maddening to know people will make poor choices because of misinformation.

[Macmaniac]

I bet Dell will butcher the design, I can see the review now. "While the specs for the Dell DJ are modest, its ease of use is 0, its joystick navigation system is clumsy, and having to use mutiple scrolling devices to get to ones music is very annoying, its no iPod."
All Apple needs to do is drop $50 off each iPod to be more competive!

[Vlade]

Originally posted by Macmaniac

All Apple needs to do is drop $50 off each iPod to be more competive!

Yes, that would be great!

[pkradd]

No Firewire on the Dell. SJ has already publicly stated in an interview with Newsweek that Apple is trying to produce a lower price iPod. Look for something in early Spring 2004 I'd guess.

[Kanada]

I think we should leave room open for the possiblity that the Dell may be well designed and thought out, not to mention cheaper when it comes out.

I got the original iPod a week after it came out and I own 3 macs but it doesn't mean I will shut my eyes if something better comes out.

If I were M Dell I would copy the hell out of the ipod, why not, it's an excellent gadgit, and add on a little more functionalty ( FM, native voice recording, longer battery life) while keeping the user controls simple.

If he can do all that I don't think we should sneer at it. I for one hate add on's, I am always losing them.

That being said I would probably wait for Apple to counter with a better product, but I wouldn't pooh pooh Dells offering just cause they make ****ty machines ( i own a 3 ghz 8250, it's only good for games because it runs on windows, it's a $4000 playstation really). I find I still do my computing on my 450 mhz Cube, which I will probably never upgrade cause I've loved it so, it should be a collectors item eventually.:) I still get comments from people who have never seen one.

I got the Dell at the beginning of the year before the G5 came out.I thought I need a faster machine, I do alot of home movies and photgraphy. But I hate all the software that i could use with the PC so I went back to editing on my Cube and a 400 mhz PM using Photoshop and FC4. Now I can't afford a G5 untill sometime next year. Rats!!!

I know your all saying I should have known better, but who knew about the G5 in Jan 03, not me.

[bertagert]

That link points to Dell's old web site, not the current one. Plus, the price is a bundled price. What is it that you need to buy to get the rebate.

I would wait till the official launch happens before any speculation occurs.

As for the resonable price of an ipod. They're cheap for what you get. A huge portable harddrive that holds not only all your songs but anything else you want. Its the best looking, most functional and easy to use player on the market. Saving 50 bones on it wouldn't make or break my decision. Also, you guys are forgetting one thing. Apple has been planting ipods in a ton of retail stores lately. This means people can touch and feel before they buy. That with in it's self is a huge plus. Don't worry about Dell. Apple has this market covered for at least two more years.

[mymemory]

I think the iPod is way over priced and Apple needs competition.

Just think about this. An iPod has 5% of the technology of an iBook but it cost almost half ¿?

Here in Venezuela I can exchange one of my Pismos for one 30GB iPod, but is stupid. I rather buy and extra batery for the Pismo and take it with me, of course is an stupid comparison too.

I'm gonna wait for a 4th generation iPod maybe. With radio, mic and ofcourse a color LCD to be able to see pictures and small Quicktimes.

[Java]

One of the reasons why I so frequently buy with Apple is that they don't do the whole rebate deal.

Oh, this mp3 player is only $100 with rebates*. I just want the real price. Not the price after three weeks of waiting for a check to come in the mail.

I don't think Apple has to worry about the Dell DJ. I would think Dell would have issues with AAC. Apple is the standard in online music (I'm calling 70% standard) and they could care less about the Dell DJ.

Just my $0.02

[mainstreetmark]

Originally posted by peterj1967
16 hrs of battery life would be pretty impressive

Yeah, and my PB17 gets 4 hours of battery.

Posted Life = Actual Life * 2

[MM2270]

...I just want the real price. Not the price after three weeks of waiting for a check to come in the mail.

3 weeks? You'd be LUCKY to get it in 3 weeks. Try more like 6 months in most cases for rebates. Yes, rebates SUCK. I wish companies would stop them, because the fact is, you still lose the money for that period of time before you get that check in the mail.

Anyway concerning the Dell DJ, I'm skeptical about the 16 hrs of playback. Either this thing is HUGE, or somehow Dell's engineers came upon some brilliance. Honestly, Dell never creates anything innovative, so how did their engineers come upon a way to include 16 hours of battery life in a small unit and Apple couldn't? Like I said, this thing is probably really bulky to contain that battery. It's no iPod, but it will compete with it at least on some level.

Should be interesting to see what happens.

[Nutzoids]

STOP IT...RIGHT NOW...Shame on all of you...How many iPods has Apple sold so far...how behind the game is Dell on this? Come on Apple has no worries...Plus when is this thing planned for release...I'm guessing around the Holiday season...Guess what a few short months later Apple and Pepsi are teaming up to give away 100 Million songs on the iTMS...and when people go to download free songs and they find out that it won't work with there little behind the times "Dell Digital Junk" Dell DJ. Most people at this point have heard of the iPod...Or knows someone who has one...They are going to figure out what Dell is doing...Ripping off Apple...Relax my friends we are fine!


Pepsi & Apple
http://www.apple.com/itunes/
Scrool down and you'll see it...Feb 1
:cool:

[VicMacs]

Originally posted by mymemory
Here in Venezuela I can exchange one of my Pismos for one 30GB iPod

errr, what can you get for a wallstreet??? i can settle for a 10 gb ipod :D

[Dippo]

I for one am NOT impressed with the Dell DJ. It would be nice to have a picture of it, but from what I read, it's has nothing over the iPod.

We really need to see how it looks and how user friendly it is before making an judgements. But from what Dell has done in the past, I wouldn't look for anything revolutionary just the same old thing but a little cheaper.

Of course anyone can stick a headphone jack on a hard drive and call it an iPod killer, and All of the MP3 players that have made that claim, have been killed by the iPod

No Worries

[MorganX]

Originally posted by Stike
Music Match! I love that! Most PC people are switching from Musicmatch to iTunes now, because they hate it...
So, the iPod will beat the crap outta thhe Dell DJ :D

Unfortunately all the people who own MP3 players won't be staying with iTunes long unless they buy an iPod.

The iPod, IMO, will only see a marginal thread from Dell. Their marketing power. The will sell quite a few, but based on the limited number of people who need a 15GB, combined with the fact that Dell is generally a discount PC warehouse, should keep a great distance between the iPod and the Dell.

Apple's in luck, the Dell is just ugly and doesn't work with iTunes. But they do have market power. On the other hand, the iRiver HD120, more of a threat IMO, has crappy software (musicmatch, WMP) and no market power.

I think iPod will be OK until Sony and Toshiba enter the market with their next-gen HD players. Then it will be on!

[skymac]

I dont care how much cheaper the Dell DJ is, I'm still going for the iPOD when iv got the money wich will be in about 2 weeks(i wont be able to use it t'ill i get my PB in 4 weeks since i'm still on OS 8.6). Plus the next gen iPOD will probably have more built in features a better screen and what not. as long as apple can do it without sacraficing size and weight the'll do it. i'll i have to do now is wait for iTMS Canada.
I agree with every one that this will prove how imortant it is to be ahead of the game and make a a name for your product and how much more innovative and original apple is. A bit of competition cant hurt if you have the better product since people will realise iPOD is beter than DJ. the DJ however will not be the worst mp3 player out there but certainly not the best.

[jxyama]

i'm not sure if "worry" is the right word. dell certainly has good brand recognition and people will take a look. if this particular device is anywhere near as functional as iPod, people will take a look.

what i'm really wondering is this:

how does it get 16 hours of battery life?

the battery technology is pretty much out in the open. there's no "secret" vendor that can produce a battery that's twice as good for the same size/price/technology.

given that ipod is very simple in its function, i really doubt that the hardware and software of this dell is twice as efficient. there's only so much energy you can save by optimizing the software or hardware. is there a new kind of mini-HD that's super efficient? is there a new kind of embedded processors that is twice as efficient?

so i conclude that dell's device is either:
-has "two" batteries (and making it probably clunky) (not necessarily two separate batteries - but you get the point.)

or

-16 hours was obtained under an extremely non-normal use condition, more extreme than, say, apple's - no backlight, music playing at a low volume and no skipping around songs. (frankly, i can't think of doing anything more to save battery, so i take the former conclusion...)

i'd like to see the image of it...

[Nutzoids]

Just got off the phone with dell...This is the link I was sent to:

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?TabPage=overview&sku=A0161399&c=us&l=en&cs=19&page=external

The Pic looks like the one we've seen from Chaosmint:

http://www.chaosmint.com/macintosh/articles/dell-dj-digital-jukebox-h.shtml

Are they using Creative Labs...This might be an issue!

The guy I talked to at dell was going to send me an E-mail with information on the new "Dell JukeBox" I will paste the e-mail here when I get it.

[jxyama]

Originally posted by Nutzoids

The Pic looks like the one we've seen from Chaosmint:

http://www.chaosmint.com/macintosh/articles/dell-dj-digital-jukebox-h.shtml


i'm just glad apple basically trademarked the touch wheel design. i'm no expert but i think it's fairly easy to see that the touch wheel design is the most usable interface for navigating thousands of menus. as long as it's not blatantly copied, apple will always have an edge in usability. this becomes more of an advantage as the HD capacity increases. what's the use of having 10,000 song access if it's so hard to get to them?

this is one reason i don't want ipod to become more of PDA. the interface as is is perfect for a music player - expanding the capability further will dilute this advantage... (all in my opinion.)

[yamabushi]

There have been rumors that Sony will also release a HD based music player. If true, Apple should worry. Sony has experience and recognition for quality in the field of portable players. Remember that Sony pioneered the technology for portable music devices. Oh, they also patented a thumbwheel design for navigation that they used in some palmtop PCs and MiniDisc players.

[jxyama]

Originally posted by yamabushi
There have been rumors that Sony will also release a HD based music player. If true, Apple should worry. Sony has experience and recognition for quality in the field of portable players. Remember that Sony pioneered the technology for portable music devices. Oh, they also patented a thumbwheel design for navigation that they used in some palmtop PCs and MiniDisc players.

finally... sony should have done an ipod long ago... they were just caught in the middle because they also own a record label.

we shall see...

[tazznb]

Originally posted by jxyama
what i'm really wondering is this:

how does it get 16 hours of battery life?

the battery technology is pretty much out in the open. there's no "secret" vendor that can produce a battery that's twice as good for the same size/price/technology.

given that ipod is very simple in its function, i really doubt that the hardware and software of this dell is twice as efficient. there's only so much energy you can save by optimizing the software or hardware. is there a new kind of mini-HD that's super efficient? is there a new kind of embedded processors that is twice as efficient?

so i conclude that dell's device is either:
-has "two" batteries (and making it probably clunky) (not necessarily two separate batteries - but you get the point.)

or

-16 hours was obtained under an extremely non-normal use condition, more extreme than, say, apple's - no backlight, music playing at a low volume and no skipping around songs. (frankly, i can't think of doing anything more to save battery, so i take the former conclusion...)

i'd like to see the image of it...

I'm betting they got this 16hrs by way of keeping it in STBY mode which just gives a ready to use indicator (LED), and not in use at all, but people will be suckered into flocking to it for untrue reasons.

I hope that when they give it a "First Looks" review they uncover these things.

[fatfish]

I don't believe you can compare the two for price, it's more a case of will people pay more for what we assume to be a better product.

Who wants a joystick, I've got one on my phone, it's a complete pain.

15 Gb, surely whats important is how much music it holds, how do the different formats relate to quantity and quality.

My son has got a 20Gb ipod and its almost full, he's only had it since April. I've got about 30 Gb of music on my mac although I don't have an Ipod. My other son has got about 20 Gb of music and is getting an ipod (40 Gb) for Xmas.

The point is, 15 Ghb is not a lot, especially if the format makes larger file sizes

[ryanw]

Originally posted by mymemory
I think the iPod is way over priced and Apple needs competition.


The 40 gig iPod is $500. The priced of a 40 gig laptop harddrive is about $125. How much is the cost of the iPod molding, logic board, battery, and touch controls. How much do you think the cost of R&D is to have the #1 rated product for several years in a row in a market getting more and more competitive?

Overpriced? I dunno, Apple definatly has some room to play with for R&D with the iPod's profits, but if they were to cut that out right now it might eat into the quality of future iPods.

[MasonMcD]

The hard drive in an iPod commands a price premium because of its small form factor. It is not the same as a laptop drive.

[sushi]

Originally posted by ryanw
The 40 gig iPod is $500. The priced of a 40 gig laptop harddrive is about $125. How much is the cost of the iPod molding, logic board, battery, and touch controls.
Uh, the iPod uses a 1.8" HD.

Most laptops use a 2.5" HD.

The smaller sized HDs cost more.

Sushi

[scat999999]

I don't know about 6 mos., but certianly 6-8 weeks minimum. The thing to remember though, is that only about 35% of Dell's customers ever send in for the rebate. And, you have to know to go online to d/l the rebate form, they don't send it with the item. And you had better not lose the packing slip on the outside of the box, you need to send a copy of that too. And if you threw away the box with the packing slip still on it...tough. You're S.O.L.
Give me a good old-fashioned "Sale" price any day.




Originally posted by MM2270
3 weeks? You'd be LUCKY to get it in 3 weeks. Try more like 6 months in most cases for rebates. Yes, rebates SUCK. I wish companies would stop them, because the fact is, you still lose the money for that period of time before you get that check in the mail.

Anyway concerning the Dell DJ, I'm skeptical about the 16 hrs of playback. Either this thing is HUGE, or somehow Dell's engineers came upon some brilliance. Honestly, Dell never creates anything innovative, so how did their engineers come upon a way to include 16 hours of battery life in a small unit and Apple couldn't? Like I said, this thing is probably really bulky to contain that battery. It's no iPod, but it will compete with it at least on some level.

Should be interesting to see what happens.

[pkradd]

Ther smaller a device is, such as the iPod, the harder it is to manufacture. I'm not sure who makes the iPod for Apple, but I'm sure Apple is looking at other companies to possibly make a cheaper version for them for the future. The cost of a device is not just in the price of the parts it contains. There's the previously mentioned R&D, the cost of the molds, securing the various parts from different vendors, assembly, salaries of the workers, overhead, advertising, warehousing, shipping, etc., etc., etc.

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by duce
When ever you ask PC user why they bought a DELL they have no real justifiable reason. Only that they have those at work and my IT guy recommend it. Dammed lemmings every where.
Sorry for the rant, but it is maddening to know people will make poor choices because of misinformation.

Do note that 3-4 years ago Dell was far and above the highest quality PC you could buy. That is where they got their foothold (especially since the price for that quality was reasonable instead of outrageous).

Of course, the quality has gone significantly down in the last couple of years, as has the service, but Dell won its standing quite fairly.

[Marianco]

The PC-Card size hard drives inside the iPod cost as much as the iPod itself, if bought separately. This limits how far Apple can lower the price.

What Apple can do to allow for lower cost iPods is to create an iPod with a PC-Card slot. Then Apple can add removable generic PC-Card hard drives at whatever size the customer wants. Apple can then add even Compact Flash Cards. Apple can even sell iPods without the drive, for picky users that think they can get a better deal on storage outside of Apple.

Customers will realize that with the cost of scale Apple has, it can purchase the 40 gig removable drive with iPod at a lower cost that buying the iPod itself without hard drive and buying a 40 gig drive themselves.

Note that Laptop hard drives are much larger than the PC-Card drives inside the iPod. The smaller PC-Card drives are very expensive compared to Laptop hard drives.

[tychay]

Originally posted by scat999999
The thing to remember though, is that only about 35% of Dell's customers ever send in for the rebate.

If the extra battery life were compelling than Apple wouldn't have made the battery smaller for the 3rd generation.

More importantly is that Dell shortcuts the retail channel by selling direct (or through CostCo). This means that while Apple leaves room in their price for retail sales, Dell doesn't. The Dell "retail" price doesn't look good at all. I guess Apple did learn a lot from Dell when they designed the iPod because these prices make it look that Dell can't leverage their supply chain advantages here.

I'm sure Dell will sell a few when people buy them with their computer. But outside the Mac world, MP3 players are not a purchase done at the same time as the computer so Dell is the weak player, not Apple.

Add to this the bundling of MusicMatch and Dell looks like a fish out of water: insignificant cost savings, retail world, poor software offering. Normally they're the WalMart of the PC world: they can cause a change that ripples all the way down the supply chain.

Maybe if this was introduced a couple of years ago when the iPod only worked on Macintosh and things would be different. The 3rd generation iPod, iTunes for Windows, the new ads advertising "Mac or PC", and the new ad campaigns with Pepsi and AOL show that Apple is serious about the iPod on Windows. While people may have a stigma about Apple and the Macintosh, I don't believe they do with Apple and the iPod.

There will always be those exceptions. But those people are buying Creative Zen's or flash-based players right now. This leads me to believe that if Dell takes marketshare from anyone it will be from companies like Creative.

Add to this the fact that all the kids will probably razz their friends for getting an iPod knock-off (as the ChaosMint pictures show). In most of the world, people like/trust Dell--putting their logo on such a shoddy product will do more harm than good--this isn't the PC world, its the consumer one; this isn't going against the Mac, this is going against the iPod.

Sad, I was hoping the prices of the iPod might drop or Apple might be forced to introduce a new line soon.

[rhpenguin]

Originally posted by mymemory
Just think about this. An iPod has 5% of the technology of an iBook but it cost almost half ¿?

Which is the exact reason i bought my iBook. The pricing on the iPod is mad insane. I want one but i dont think i would ever pony up that kind of cash for something that only plays music. For the moment ill just stick with my $20 D-Link shizz azz mp3 playa.

[Marianco]

The lowest price for a 5-Gig Toshiba PC-Card hard drive I've found so far is $192.

This is just for 5-gigs.

Not including iPod hardware.

The 10-40 gig hard drives should cost even more.

Thus, the current iPods are selling for reasonable price.

Even if Apple came up with removable PC-Card iPods, you will be hard pricessed to get a better deal than you would be able to from Apple.

[Marianco]

You should then use the same logic to compare the cost of Dell's iPod-copy to the cost of their PCs, if you are so stingy on purchasing an iPod. You can get a Dell PC for $399. And their iPod-copy only plays music. Why buy Dell?!!! Stick with your $50 mp3 player.



quote:
Originally posted by mymemory
Just think about this. An iPod has 5% of the technology of an iBook but it cost almost half ¿?


Which is the exact reason i bought my iBook. The pricing on the iPod is mad insane. I want one but i dont think i would ever pony up that kind of cash for something that only plays music. For the moment ill just stick with my $20 D-Link shizz azz mp3 playa.

[eazyway]

Sure the iPod is more expensive. It also uses rigid specs on harware. Plus design features are always very carefully thought out.

You pay more for luxury and in my opinion Apple is all about computing luxury, reliabilty and ease of use.

Its just like a car ...Buy a chev cheap or drive a lexus ...Which would you prefer both will provide you with a mode of transportation . It comes down to what do you want and what can you afford. Apple will always be the computer supplier most of us will want but only some of us can afford. (And sometimes we buy even if we really cannot afford)

Then those that cannot afford it will bash the very item they really want because of the affordibility isuue. Caveat ... this does not apply to everone but it does to a lot of people.

[avus]

Originally posted by jxyama
finally... sony should have done an ipod long ago... they were just caught in the middle because they also own a record label.

we shall see...

True... and my understanding is that Sony will NOT enter the HD-based music player market, because Sony needs to control the market by establishing a proprietary standard, and Apple already denied that to happen.

Someone said something about Toshiba, but they are suffering badly, as their computer division is dragging the company down - their computers are considered "uncool" by its own market. So, I consider the chance of Toshiba entering the market as slim or none.

[alset]

Originally posted by jon snow
Even with more battery life, there is no way that this Dell produce will be close to the style and functionality of the ipod.

Not that style and functionality keep people from buying Dell computers.... I'm paranoid, suddenly. :(

Dan

[AmigoMac]

of standby before you have to charge it again and again and ... again...:p

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by Stike
Music Match! I love that! Most PC people are switching from Musicmatch to iTunes now, because they hate it...
So, the iPod will beat the crap outta thhe Dell DJ :D

Have you guys used the new version of MM? 8.1 is nothing like the previous versions. I have both iTunes and MM on my system and occasionally switch off between the two. There are more then a few features MM has that iTunes should have. Unless you've used the software don't trash something you don't know. MM is way faster then 7, it hasn't crashed on my once, I like the light blue skin it has, and is relatively simple to use. In a crunch people could use MM and most likely not bat an eye at converting from iTunes with the obvious problems of incompatibility with DRMed ACC files.

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by jon snow
Even with more battery life, there is no way that this Dell produce will be close to the style and functionality of the ipod.

Ya and how many people aren't elitist snobs who are more interested in how pretty their device is vs. how long it lives and how much space you get on it.

Even if the batt life specs are 1/2 of what they are rating, FYI their batt life rating for their Axim PDA is spot on so I seriously consider that these specs are accurate as well, it still would still be on par with the iPod.

One way Dell may have acomplished a longer batt life is with a solid state cache that has maybe 3-4 songs cached prior to playback. I'll be interested in seeing what Dell actually did with their hardware, or more accurately what they manufacturer they hired did.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by rhpenguin
Which is the exact reason i bought my iBook. The pricing on the iPod is mad insane. I want one but i dont think i would ever pony up that kind of cash for something that only plays music. For the moment ill just stick with my $20 D-Link shizz azz mp3 playa.

Yeah, it's not like you can backup your files on it or view your contacts or calendar on it.

[notmenotyou]

go and try to buy it from DELL right now, the link doesn't lead you anywhere, all you can get is an error message, you CAN'T get it for $268 right now, they can do what ever false advertisement right now, we will see what's really going on when this DJ(DELL JUNK ) release.

[aethier]

Originally posted by SiliconAddict


One way Dell may have acomplished a longer batt life is with a solid state cache that has maybe 3-4 songs cached prior to playback. I'll be interested in seeing what Dell actually did with their hardware, or more accurately what they manufacturer they hired did.

The ipod does that too, it transfers songs ahead of time to ram, or w/e, so that the harddrive spins the least possible. that is why after skipping about 6 songs, you here it spin up again.

as for the batt, I am perfectly satisfied with the ipod batt life. it keeps me with music whenever i need it durring the day, then charge it at night. i have never once run out of batterie life.


aethier

*EDIT: i also play "parachute" and "brick" durring some of the more borring classes, with the backlight on, and it does not let me down.

[macphoria]

Looks like Dell took the cue from iPod and kept its design simple. 16 hours battery time sounds very impressive. This could be one heck of selling point.

[ITR 81]

Ok for right now the DJ might seem appealing because of it's cheaper price and battery life(probably due because it's either huge battery or running on standby) but think about this Apple should be introducing a new Gen in the first quarter of next yr which probably means a revamp of the 3gen's design, longer battery life, possible colour LCD, 50-60GB of storage space, and introducing the low cost iPods probably using the older 3gen body with 10-20GB of storage and probably around the price of $150 to $250 dollar range. I believe once this happens nothing will touch the iPod for sometime to come.

[sushi]

Originally posted by avus
Someone said something about Toshiba, but they are suffering badly, as their computer division is dragging the company down - their computers are considered "uncool" by its own market. So, I consider the chance of Toshiba entering the market as slim or none.
Toshiba is already in the market!

Old one:

http://www.toshiba.co.jp/mobileav/audio/meg50js/products.htm

New one:

http://www.toshiba.co.jp/mobileav/audio/meg200j/products.htm

Review of new one:

http://www.i4u.com/article569.html

Sushi

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by sushi
Toshiba is already in the market!

And no one noticed! Therefore, Toshiba isn't making a big difference! :D

[sushi]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
And no one noticed! Therefore, Toshiba isn't making a big difference! :D

Uh, don't be so quick to judge.

The last time that I looked, the iPod does not have 100% of the market.

While they have a huge presense, they are less than 50% So there is a large market out there to be tapped by others.

BTW, the new Toshiba player is smaller (thinner) than the iPod, advertises 11 hours play time, lighter, and supports WMA.

I for one, am looking to see what Apple has up their sleave for their 4G iPod. I still have, use and love my original 10GB one.

Sushi

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by ITR 81
probably around the price of $150 to $250 dollar range. I believe once this happens nothing will touch the iPod for sometime to come.

I'll believe it when I see it. Historically Apple has never had a cheap iPod but then again they’ve never had any serious competition. There's nothing like having the competition nipping at your heals to make you realize that: Hey! Maybe our product is a tad overpriced.

Sorry guys. There isn’t any major magic going into the iPod other then a beautiful form and a nice interface.
-The hard drive isn't made by Apple but Toshiba.
-The battery isn't made by apple but Sony.
-The CPU is ARM based (Similar to the ones being used in current PDA's.) Its all general over the counter items. Yes Apple did a very good jobs integrating these components into a small form fact or but seriously everything else is Apple tax and while most Apple users, and myself come on 80GB drive!, will happily shell out the cash for such a device there will be more then a few that will look at the Dell offering and say screw it if I can get more storage, = batt life, and at an as cheap or cheaper price point. Apple should be concerned for Christmas sales. The major thing Apple has going for it is that Dell doesn't sell their wares anywhere other then online.

[jxyama]

the toshiba player, at the least the one in the first link, claims 18 hour battery life due to "advanced lithium ion rechargeable battery." it recharges in 3 hours and 30 min. the condition of use listed for the 18 hour battery life is: room temperature (25 deg. celcius), no backlight, volume at mid-level, 128 kbps WMA audio file sampled at 44.1 kHz.

so i guess such batteries are out there...

regardless, mp3 players aren't as popular (yet) in japan as MD players still command quite a bit of respect in regards to the portable music player industry. also, due to the fact everyone japan has a cell phone that are far, far more advanced than anything in the u.s., i imagine a cell phone mp3 players will have a better chance of succeeding.

i only mention the thing about japan because usually, japanese like their gadgets small, useful and well-designed. japanese aren't as price conscious (i.e. cheap) so once japanese market demands improved choices in mp3 players, i imagine good stuff will come out of japanese companies. (another reason apple does relatively better in japan, i think...) until such time, ipod is plenty capable and designed well enough to satisfy the japanese...

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by sushi
Uh, don't be so quick to judge.

The last time that I looked, the iPod does not have 100% of the market.



30%. Per Jobs own figures. iPod owns the highest overall % of any device but there is that 70% hanging out there.

30% is nothing to laugh at. Its good. Apple is GOING to have to work to maintain that number.

[themadchemist]

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
I'll believe it when I see it. Historically Apple has never had a cheap iPod but then again they’ve never had any serious competition. There's nothing like having the competition nipping at your heals to make you realize that: Hey! Maybe our product is a tad overpriced.

Sorry guys. There isn’t any major magic going into the iPod other then a beautiful form and a nice interface.
-The hard drive isn't made by Apple but Toshiba.
-The battery isn't made by apple but Sony.
-The CPU is ARM based (Similar to the ones being used in current PDA's.) Its all general over the counter items. Yes Apple did a very good jobs integrating these components into a small form fact or but seriously everything else is Apple tax and while most Apple users, and myself come on 80GB drive!, will happily shell out the cash for such a device there will be more then a few that will look at the Dell offering and say screw it if I can get more storage, = batt life, and at an as cheap or cheaper price point. Apple should be concerned for Christmas sales. The major thing Apple has going for it is that Dell doesn't sell their wares anywhere other then online.

Well, the points you mentioned are the case also for everyone else making mp3 players (I almost made the mistake of typing iPod instead of mp3 players--talk about brand identity). Apple's job is to integrate the hardware into an incredible form factor, and to make user-friendly software. Clearly, no one else performing the same task has been successful, at least in the eyes of the consumer, whose eyes are the only ones that matter.

Of course, Apple's got more money than a company like Rio, but it doesn't specialize like that company does. And Apple's got less than, say, Dell, but it beats Dell pretty soundly in this area.

Oh, SiliconAddict--great handle! At first I thought it said "SiliconeAddict" and I found that pretty funny.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
30%. Per Jobs own figures. iPod owns the highest overall % of any device but there is that 70% hanging out there.

30% is nothing to laugh at. Its good. Apple is GOING to have to work to maintain that number.

70% by revenue, which indicates that the rest of the market is taken up by cheap players and not iPod competitors.

[kuyu]

When iPod's competition comes crawling out of the woodwork, I don't think Apple has a lot to worry about. I am in the market for an mp3 player, and I'd take an iPod over this DJ thing anyday. Just look at them side by side and it's easy to see which one is superior. The DJ's stats are impressive, but not too important.

I wish people would realize that we are in an age where computing power exceeds need. Who really needs 16 hours of non-stop music? That's an entire waking day. I guess I just don't see the point of constantly increasing stats on stuff like this. Tech companies resources would be better spent improving what we have, instead of replacing last weeks piece of crap with this weeks faster piece of crap.

[fourthtunz]

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Hey! Maybe our product is a tad overpriced.

Sorry guys. There isn’t any major magic going into the iPod other then a beautiful form and a nice interface.

Do you actually own one?
I thought the same way until my wife bought me the 30 gig ipod for my birthday, but not anymore.
IMO what makes the ipod great is the package as a whole, the ipod and itunes/music service and the way it sounds.
The D-A converters sound better than cheap boxes, the ability to use it as a firewire storage device,the file formats you can play and syncability are going to make it hard to beat.
Your point is well taken though, as the user experience is what makes the Mac better than a pc and the ipod better than the cheapie boxes. This also works against the Mac and the ipod though, the fact that you actually have to use one to see that they are better and many people go on price alone,peace
daniel

[ryaxnb]

Originally posted by yamabushi
There have been rumors that Sony will also release a HD based music player. If true, Apple should worry. Sony has experience and recognition for quality in the field of portable players. Remember that Sony pioneered the technology for portable music devices. Oh, they also patented a thumbwheel design for navigation that they used in some palmtop PCs and MiniDisc players.
Sony also has experience in making painfully annoying copy protection.

[ColdZero]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
70% by revenue, which indicates that the rest of the market is taken up by cheap players and not iPod competitors.

Actually it just says that the iPod costs more (on average) than other players. It says nothing about how cheap (I could have 1% of the other share but cost $900) the other players are or if they are competitors or not (another player could have 31% share and cost little).

[Phil Of Mac]

iPod competitors are not that much cheaper than the iPod. The iPod's added price wouldn't excessively skew the statistics the way that they are. No, it's just that the iPod is the only extensively selling music player in its class.

[MorganX]

Originally posted by avus
True... and my understanding is that Sony will NOT enter the HD-based music player market, because Sony needs to control the market by establishing a proprietary standard, and Apple already denied that to happen.

Someone said something about Toshiba, but they are suffering badly, as their computer division is dragging the company down - their computers are considered "uncool" by its own market. So, I consider the chance of Toshiba entering the market as slim or none.

Toshiba's Second HD Player. (http://www.i4u.com/article569.html)

Sony to launch new music service, (http://news.com.com/2100-1027_3-5071475.html) they are rumored to have an HD player and other devices to go along with the service.

[ITR 81]

Someone probably should look at how much of the marketshare Apples iPod has by yr end. As I know alot kids that live around me are all asking for iPods for Christmas. Also if anyone was watching the World Series you'ed noticed Apples iPod commerials everytime they broke to commerical breaks.

I noticed Apple points out in the commerical that iTunes is now for Windows so I think they reached a good portion of viewing area since alot folks did watch the WS's. Apple is suppose to put out new ad for SuperBowl too.

[Stike]

Originally posted by SiliconAddict
Have you guys used the new version of MM? ... Unless you've used the software don't trash something you don't know.

Well, as you can read, it wasn´t me who trashed MusicMatch - it was the people who reported to me that they consider MM crap and because of this switched ti iTunes.

[SBG88]

Looks pretty cool to me. I'm sure they will sell a ton of them. I doubt you will get 16 hours. iPod says 8 hours and you are lucky to get 5.

[MorganX]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
And no one noticed! Therefore, Toshiba isn't making a big difference! :D

The first one sucked. Who needs a removable 5G HD in an HD Mp3 player? In addition there was 0 marketing. The second one is only available in Japan. I have a feeling they may put a few marketing dollars behind that one.

[ColdZero]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
iPod competitors are not that much cheaper than the iPod. The iPod's added price wouldn't excessively skew the statistics the way that they are. No, it's just that the iPod is the only extensively selling music player in its class.

If they aren't that much cheaper, why does the iPod own 30% of the market share in products, but 70% in revenue? Seems like the price skews it a little more than you think.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by ColdZero
If they aren't that much cheaper, why does the iPod own 30% of the market share in products, but 70% in revenue? Seems like the price skews it a little more than you think.

You forgot what I said...in its class. The flash memory-based MP3 players cost significantly less, but are not in the same class as the iPod.

[ColdZero]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
You forgot what I said...in its class. The flash memory-based MP3 players cost significantly less, but are not in the same class as the iPod.

Thats a nice try, but when you go back and edit a post to add something to make somebody else look like they were wrong, it adds a nice little:

Last edited by Phil Of Mac on 10-27-2003 at 12:28 AM

Its ok though, if you need to lie to support your arguments I understand.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by ColdZero
Thats a nice try, but when you go back and edit a post to add something to make somebody else look like they were wrong, it adds a nice little:

Last edited by Phil Of Mac on 10-27-2003 at 12:28 AM

Its ok though, if you need to lie to support your arguments I understand.

Oddly enough, I edited my post before you quoted it and responded to it! Because if you look at my post as quoted in your post, it's the same as it is now!

There's no need to make false accusations.

[Phil Of Mac]

I'm making this a separate post so you can't make another false accusation.

Your post, quoting my post, is timestamped thusly:

10-26-2003 05:39 PM

And my post says:

Last edited by Phil Of Mac on 10-26-2003 at 04:28 PM

My post was edited over an hour before you replied to it!

Now I hope you will apologize to me.

[earlopogous]

Originally posted by mymemory
I think the iPod is way over priced and Apple needs competition.

Just think about this. An iPod has 5% of the technology of an iBook but it cost almost half ¿?


well, the drive in the iPod is twice the size of the iBook's and remember that this drive is a 1.8" drive, not 2.5" that makes it VERY expensive, especailly at high drive sizes, so i think that comparison is unfair. However, i think the battery life could improve, more functionaluty could be added, and the os should be opened up to developers. This lack of accessories is getting rediculous

[dongmin]

so it should do OK in the 'poor man' market.

I don't know why you all are bagging on the DJ, but it looks like Dell did a decent job of ripping off on the iPod. Sure iPod is better in a lot of ways, but there are a plenty of people who can't afford $300 on an mp3 player. For them, the DJ will be a decent option.

[LimeiBook86]

iPod rip off, come up with something original...idiots

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by dongmin
so it should do OK in the 'poor man' market.

I don't know why you all are bagging on the DJ, but it looks like Dell did a decent job of ripping off on the iPod. Sure iPod is better in a lot of ways, but there are a plenty of people who can't afford $300 on an mp3 player. For them, the DJ will be a decent option.

It's $30 less! That's not a huge improvement, you know!

[Mr. MacPhisto]

Cost is irrelevant here because of WOM. Apple wins this one hands down. As for the 16 hour battery life, my bet is that will get an asterisk. Dell will likely sell a battery adapter like Belkin's that will attach to the DJ and allow you to put in AAs, just like the Belkin extender. I believe 4 AA last for something like 12 hours. Maybe they'll just have an external battery you can buy.

I also think Apple will have a big iPod revision in January:

$299 20GB iPod
$399 40GB iPod
$499 60GB iPod

Oh, and just one more thing....










$99 - 5GB iPod with some limitations (primarily only an MP3 player - limited ability for additional storage). If Apple goes 20, 40, 60 then a $99 5GB machine doesn't jeopardize the rest. Maybe Bluetooth on the 40 & 60.

[bobindashadows]

The iPod battery is my only problem. Compared to all the other options, the iPod looks pretty crappy. Apple used to tout the 10 hour battery as a good thing. Now they're down to 8 and the competition has 16!

[tychay]

Originally posted by bobindashadows
The iPod battery is my only problem. Compared to all the other options, the iPod looks pretty crappy. Apple used to tout the 10 hour battery as a good thing. Now they're down to 8 and the competition has 16!

Hmm, it's funny how the people who say this never actually use one. Apple lowered it down to 8 because the smaller form factor advantages cause larger sails then another couple hours of battery life.

There are auto adapters and battery packs for the few who need the extra life. The prototypical instance where I needed extra battery life was a car trip and I had a power adapter for that. The people who actually need more than 8 hours outside a few places are very few.

If you need it, there are other players out there as well as an aftermarket in 1G and 2G iPods and a healthy and growing 3rd party peripherals market. While from a style standpoint, I wish Apple came out with their own peripherals, there are advantages to having companies like Belkin make them (leverage their supply chain and channel advantages) which seem overlooked.

It's funny how the discussion centers around Apple's weaknesses and not around Dell's. Even assuming the $260 after rebate is correct, this is not the retail channel price. Honestly, how many people are going to Dell to save $40 for a knock off (assuming they return the rebate)? How many people buy a Zen with a new Windows PC? I see a company whose advantage is a better supply chain (cheaper price) which really doesn't count for squat in this market. This isn't a PC here, this is an consumer appliance.

Ever use a Media Center PC and a TiVo (I have)? After about 10 days you realize why this Media Center has been a big money loser and a pathetic niche market. It looks great on paper, but even Apple's famed integration can't make a computer have the manual-down drop-dead ease-of-use as a TiVo and even if they could people don't want to put their computer next to their entertainment center.

I wonder about some of you. Go to an electronics store with a good selection. You can already get sub $300 hard drive players with large battery life: Creative, Archos, etc. Dell's offering is unimpressive at best and I feel sorry for the poor kid whose parent buys them it with their Dell. Because a smart kid will be savvy enough to scum an iPod on educational discount at a much better price and won't get ridiculed by friends for having a cheap knock off.

OTOH, nobody is going to make fun of him for buying a Dell PC or notebook. In that situation, it's the Mac user who has to get all defensive about his purchase.

That is why, when Apple loses iPod marketshare to someone, it won't be to Dell.

[fourthtunz]

Originally posted by dongmin
so it should do OK in the 'poor man' market.

I don't know why you all are bagging on the DJ, but it looks like Dell did a decent job of ripping off on the iPod. Sure iPod is better in a lot of ways, but there are a plenty of people who can't afford $300 on an mp3 player. For them, the DJ will be a decent option.

Well for those who want a cheaper Ipod you can buy one used or refurbed for under $200, and it would probably still be better than the first offerings by the competition.
Maybe you were simplifying but the ipod is more than an mp3 player, but yeah not everybody can afford one:D
daniel

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by themadchemist

Oh, SiliconAddict--great handle! At first I thought it said "SiliconeAddict" and I found that pretty funny.

You should hear the reactions when I call comcast for e-mail tech support. :D

I have to explain the diff between silicon and silicone to a number of techs who were laughing at the name. I'm a tech not a pervert. :D

[SiliconAddict]

Originally posted by Mr. MacPhisto

$99 - 5GB iPod with some limitations (primarily only an MP3 player - limited ability for additional storage). If Apple goes 20, 40, 60 then a $99 5GB machine doesn't jeopardize the rest. Maybe Bluetooth on the 40 & 60.


You aren't going to see a $99 iPod unless Apple eats a major chunk of the device cost which wouldn’t be totally out of the realm of possibilities. Vid game console manufacturers do it all the time with the games being the bread and butter of their market. A 5GB drive, retail costs aprox $200 Lets assume for the sake of argument that they can somehow get it for $100 in bulk, that still requires the purchase of a ARM CPU, LCD, firewire controller, battery, memory, etc. I'd personally say $199 is more of a realistic price point.

[stingerman]

Apple is ahead marketing wise and not holding back. The only mistake Apple made was that at one point Apple allowed Dell to resell the iPod. Dell saw the sales rate through their own store and decided it would make sense to take it on-house. So they are betting that they'll be able to sell their own player by virtue of sellin it to the exclusion of the iPod on there own store. At this point, though, Apple already has the mind share and they are reinforcing it with their heavy advertisements. It is both a name recognition and must have factor for what is considered a luxury item. So the difference in price of a dollars will not have a major impact. Unless Dell decides to dump it on the market and use it as a loss leader, but I don't know the anti-trust laws on product dumping.

Apple has a lead and has shown the desire to compete. I think they will try to protect their pricing while upping storage amounts and bundling in add-ons if the competition gets hot. That is until the 4th generation iPod, hopefully come January.

[greenstork]

Originally posted by MorganX
Toshiba's Second HD Player. (http://www.i4u.com/article569.html)

Sony to launch new music service, (http://news.com.com/2100-1027_3-5071475.html) they are rumored to have an HD player and other devices to go along with the service.

In this debate about one music player vs the other I can't help thinking what will set Apple apart more than tech specs will be advertising. Unless the likes of Toshiba, Dell, et al can rival the marketing blitz of Apple who obviously has a lot riding on the future success of the iPod, I don't see any real competition.

Don't underestimate the power of advertising in the land grab for market share that is taking place in the digital music player market right now.

[stingerman]

Of course Apple can simply up their 10 GB to 30, the 20 to 40 and take the 40 to 60. ;)

[greenstork]

Originally posted by bobindashadows
The iPod battery is my only problem. Compared to all the other options, the iPod looks pretty crappy. Apple used to tout the 10 hour battery as a good thing. Now they're down to 8 and the competition has 16!

Go buy a Dell then.

[hulugu]

I wish companies like MS and Dell would innovate rather than copy Apple like a dumb jock during finals.
Between MS sudden love of brushed metal to this thing, damnit Michael you're no better than that jock furiously copying over the smart kid's shoulder.
And can someone answer me a question, if Dell is named for Michael Dell why is their logo a big E?

My iPod could beat the snot out of this thing. Now it's kicking sand in its face. Bad iPod! Bad!

No more caffine for me. ;)


And another thing: the Dell will surely either be larger, have an extra battery pack, or they're using the same sort of legalese they use to describe their laptops battery life.
Also likely, the Dell won't have the sound quality that the iPod does, that equalizer sucks up a lot of juice. Futhermore, the iPod can get more than 8 hours on a single charge you just need to fiddle with it some. Read the manual.

As for one poster noting they'll keep an open mind, I am too, but I find it highly unlikely that Dell will manage to do anything beyond the usual dog and pony show they're so famous for.

Dude, you're getting a Dell.
Oh dear god, why?

[JoeG4]

Originally posted by jettredmont
Do note that 3-4 years ago Dell was far and above the highest quality PC you could buy. That is where they got their foothold (especially since the price for that quality was reasonable instead of outrageous).

Of course, the quality has gone significantly down in the last couple of years, as has the service, but Dell won its standing quite fairly.

That's BS. 3-4 years ago the school districts in our area spent about $1200 a machine for computers...

Most of the desktops were puny 300mhz machines

The towers were P2 or P3 BUT THEY HAD NLX BOARDS!! NLX?! ON A TOWER?!

quality my butt. In our labs there was always at least 2 or 3 broken

[sushi]

Originally posted by jxyama
regardless, mp3 players aren't as popular (yet) in japan as MD players still command quite a bit of respect in regards to the portable music player industry.
Very true as someone who lives in Japan and sees it everyday. MDs rule over here.

also, due to the fact everyone japan has a cell phone that are far, far more advanced than anything in the u.s., i imagine a cell phone mp3 players will have a better chance of succeeding.
Interesting that you say this.

The other day, I saw a cell phone that took the MMC/SD memory. They discuss up to 1GB of music on a card.

Pretty sweet! :-)


i only mention the thing about japan because usually, japanese like their gadgets small, useful and well-designed. japanese aren't as price conscious (i.e. cheap) so once japanese market demands improved choices in mp3 players, i imagine good stuff will come out of japanese companies. (another reason apple does relatively better in japan, i think...) until such time, ipod is plenty capable and designed well enough to satisfy the japanese... Yep, the iPod seems popular here. But so are the solid state devices.

I love my iPod and used it for all music listening activities until now.

For running, skiing, etc., I now have a RIO SU30. Very nice. Smaller and lighter than an iPod, plus it has a very nice neckstrap with integrated headset system.

Here is the URL:

http://www.rioaudio.jp/products/riosu30_2.html

Sushi

[MorganX]

Originally posted by sushi
For running, skiing, etc., I now have a RIO SU30. Very nice. Smaller and lighter than an iPod, plus it has a very nice neckstrap with integrated headset system.

Here is the URL:

http://www.rioaudio.jp/products/riosu30_2.html

Sushi

Funny you say that. I love my iPod also but I think I'm going to get a keychain player for time my iPod batter is low, or I just don't care to wear a fanny pack that day in the gym. The iPod is delicate and scratch-prone.

This is where I really wish iTunes supported other devices and re-encoding on transfer to device. Also, at 64k this is where WMA shines. I guess there's room for everyone in this market. But at the high-end, iPod+iTunes seems unbeatable.

[ReelFocused]

Perhaps a smaller version of the iPod could be cool. Is a packet smaller than a pod?

Here is a Watson translation (via Bablefish) of the web page that Sushi posted:

Audio player, voice recorder, FM radio and USB storage media in one portable device! Rio SU30, the "audio player", the "voice recorder", the "FM radio" and the Rio family which combines four functions of the "USB storage media" most small size of the weight approximately 37g which becomes lightweight is the digital audio player. WMA (Windows Media Audio) and music of MP3 system/playback function of sound, maximum of 36 hours * audio sound recording function, loading the function of the treble quality FM tuner and the storage media. It mounts the USB connector, because the private software is not needed in USB storage class correspondence, it connects to the personal computer simply, can transfer the file. In case of *Rio SU30 512MB

[MRLurker]

Originally posted by JoeG4
That's BS. 3-4 years ago the school districts in our area spent about $1200 a machine for computers...

Most of the desktops were puny 300mhz machines

The towers were P2 or P3 BUT THEY HAD NLX BOARDS!! NLX?! ON A TOWER?!

quality my butt. In our labs there was always at least 2 or 3 broken

You are 100% correct. When I hear people in here talking about dell engineers I can't help but laugh. Seems as though people have been watching too many of Dell's "intern" commercials and not paying enough attention to what they actually sell. Dell is a supply chain company. They make money by cutting corners. If they can switch a $10 network card for an $8 they will. Most importantly they will switch it and probably not even tell their customers. We get PCs from Dell all the time and I can't even describe the total pain in the butt that Dell is when it comes to switching parts and not telling us. Dell does not want to compete with apple for online music sales. Dell want's to take all the money it can from you at one time. They know that as long as you are buying a $1500 computer you might as well get that music player you always wanted, and the printer that you would have to get anyways. Oh, and while you are at it throw a digital camera on the pile.

Dell's products will do what Dell's products always do. They will be two year old technology at last year's prices and be unsupported by the time you get it. If you ever have as problem Dell will push it off on the company they bought the devices from and the company that they bought the devices from will tell you to that since it has Dell's name on it it's their problem. If I got one of these for christmas I would return it and shell out the extra cash out-of-pocket for and iPod.

[sushi]

Originally posted by MorganX
The iPod is delicate and scratch-prone.
I care about my iPod! He He!

But it only cost me about $100 because of the discount I got when I purchased my computer and display.

The RIO SU30 OTOH, cost a whole lot more. But I don't care if it gets damaged.

Go figure!

I mean, drop my iPod...tears come to my eyes. Drop my SU30...pick it up and continue like nothing has happened.

BTW, the RIO SU30 requires software to run and is not compatable with the Mac. Well, I have never let that stop me. I just connect if via my USB and copy the MP3 files over. Likewise, for recordings (wave files) I just copy them the other way. Seems to work okay. This solution also works on the Windoze side.

I encode my MP3s at 256, 44.1, True Stereo. So it takes about 2MB per minute. I have the 256 model, so I can carry about 128 minutes of music -- or one very long workout! :D

What I like about the RIO SU30 is that I can record long meetings very easily. I would imagine that it would come in handly recording lectures. Only has a built in mic, so that limits the capabilities a bit.

Here is a picture of the neckstrap/earphones. Works well.



Sushi

[sushi]

Originally posted by ReelFocused
Perhaps a smaller version of the iPod could be cool.
A solid state/flash memory one would be very nice!

I would like to see the following:
- Same form factor as the 3G type
- Same OS as the 3G type
- 1 or 2 GB Flash Memory
- All plastic (reduce weight)
- Thin. Thin. (50% of the current 10Gb version).
- Same connectors as 3G type

Sushi

[jxyama]

dell's main business is not in "innovating" in the sense of inventing new things. that's not what they do. their business is in selling PCs to the masses at the right combination of price/quality/specifications/service. they are not the front runners in terms of inventing technology - they will be the front runner in adopting "hot" technology on a wide scale, though.

if dell suddenly started selling "luxury" line of all-in-one-PC priced at a premium like Macs, who'd buy? people buy dells because they sell reputable (or tolerable, take your pick) PCs at very good price.

edit: that said, i can't imagine a better overall package of price/usability than the eMac. yeah, headless would have been nice for a lower price, but i'm pretty impressed with the new eMac. my only gripe is the 128 MB RAM. it's definitely on the low side, esp. with panther.

[rjstanford]

Originally posted by hulugu
I wish companies like MS and Dell would innovate rather than copy Apple like a dumb jock during finals.You mean like Apple did when they took the Archos MP3 jukebox (the first HD-based portable MP3 player) and created the iPod? Yeah, I just hate people who copy.And another thing: the Dell will surely either be larger, have an extra battery pack, or they're using the same sort of legalese they use to describe their laptops battery life.
Also likely, the Dell won't have the sound quality that the iPod does, that equalizer sucks up a lot of juice. Futhermore, the iPod can get more than 8 hours on a single charge you just need to fiddle with it some. Read the manual.Yeah, because nobody else can ever do anything. And if they say they can, they lie.

C'mon. And yes, that first response was sarcastic - but only a little. How come when Apple does anything, its innovative, but when somebody else does it, its copying Apple? Can't we at least agree that Apple is a good enough company to be judged by the strength of its products, and not need this kind of everyone-else-bashing to "help" their cause?

-Richard

[the_dalex]

Richard-

I have a problem with Dell claiming that they are first to market with a product or idea that Apple has had for two years or more. They do this often. The average consumer hears the lie and buys the product, thinking Dell is an innovator. Usually they figure it out, but Dell already got their money.

Dell isn't a bad company, they are in fact exceedingly efficient. They are not innovators, they are a distributor who likes to put their brand name on everything they sell.

[avvpiras]

Do you think you can recharge the Dell DJ battery when syncing to a PC with an USB 2.0 connection?
Or will you need to connect *also* an AC adapter?

[Lancetx]

Originally posted by rjstanford
You mean like Apple did when they took the Archos MP3 jukebox (the first HD-based portable MP3 player) and created the iPod? Yeah, I just hate people who copy.Yeah, because nobody else can ever do anything. And if they say they can, they lie.

C'mon. And yes, that first response was sarcastic - but only a little. How come when Apple does anything, its innovative, but when somebody else does it, its copying Apple? Can't we at least agree that Apple is a good enough company to be judged by the strength of its products, and not need this kind of everyone-else-bashing to "help" their cause?

-Richard

Well, the old Archos Jukebox was such a piece of crap that it's a stretch to say Apple "copied" them in this instance. :p Yes, they are both HD based mp3 players, but that's where the similarities between it and the iPod end. And yes, I speak from experience having owned the old 6GB model for a short time back 2-3 years ago. It was such a flakey POS that I ended up returning it for a refund before the 30 days ran out at Best Buy. That's not even to mention that the iPod also looks nothing like that old Archos either (thank God!) At least the iPod looks good and works well. The Dell jukebox on the other hand was obviously designed using an iPod as it's guiding blueprint, all you have to do is look at it and you can see that...

[hulugu]

Apple took the original HD-based MP3 player and made a much better creation, that's innovation.
Dell takes Apple's iPod changes the styling slightly and then markets it as an iPod by Dell. That's copying.
I bash Dell and MS (check out the new Longhorn, or as the joke goes check out OSX.3 to see what Longhorn will look like) is they essentially market Apple's ideas without bringing anything new to the table.

[avvpiras]

The 20 GB iPod weights 5,6 ounces, while the Dell DJ weights 7,6 ounces: it's 36% heavier.
The 20 GB iPod's size is 4.1 by 2.4 by 0.62 inches (volume 6,1 cubic inches), while the Dell DJ's size is 4.1 by 2.7 by 0.86 inches (volume 9,52 cubic inches): it's 56% bulkier.
For comparison, see http://www.apple.com/ipod/specs.html and http://www.quicken.com/investments/news/story/?story=NewsStory/BW/20031027/20031027005205.var&p=DELL

[Brent Turbo]

What is everyone so worried about? If someone comes out with a better/cheaper MP3 player, isn't that a good thing? I hope that some companies step into the Mac MP3 player arena to shake things up. The iPod is far too expensive right now. It's survival of the fittest in the computer world -- people vote with their dollars, and you'd be stupid to think that Apple's current maket share is due to bad luck. So if something tramples the iPod in sales, well, that's evolution!

Another thing to consider about DellDJ vs. iPod in the PC world, is that PC shoppers value price over quality. It's that simple. Hell, most PC users don't even know what quality *IS* (MusicMatch's popularity is a glaring example of that statement), much less that it's something that can be acheived through proper design.

[1macker1]

No way is taking something that's already out there and changing it around innovation.

Originally posted by hulugu
Apple took the original HD-based MP3 player and made a much better creation, that's innovation.
Dell takes Apple's iPod changes the styling slightly and then markets it as an iPod by Dell. That's copying.
I bash Dell and MS (check out the new Longhorn, or as the joke goes check out OSX.3 to see what Longhorn will look like) is they essentially market Apple's ideas without bringing anything new to the table.

[legion]

I originally thought the Dell DJ was a rebranded Creative, but I noticed a difference of some importance. The hard drive used is from HGST instead of Creative's usual source and the deal was negotiated between HGST and Dell (no mention of Creative.) It's still possible that Creative is the one who actually handles design and manufacturing (to Dell's specs and parts.)

Another major difference between the iPod and the DJ is a removable/replaceable battery. It's always bugged me that the iPod, once the battery dies, is useless since you can't replace the battery and batteries have a notorious life-expectancy problem.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by 1macker1
No way is taking something that's already out there and changing it around innovation.

Okay. I guess there's been no innovation since the invention of the personal computer.

[hulugu]

Actually, there's no innovation at all apparently just invention and replication.
Innovation is by definition the invention of an idea, but I think its usage extends beyond that. Someone innovated the transitor radio so that it became the portable audio device we're so used to. Did they create the crystals necessary, the technology? No, but they did put it together in such a form that it became a wholly new object.
The automobile existed long before Henry Ford put his particular stamp on it, but it was his particular vision that made it into the thing we're used to. But does anyone know who ran Chevy a few years later? No, because they followed Ford and his cohorts.
Apple has done the same thing with the MP3 player, they took a seminal idea and made it into something that is useful and functional, meanwhile Dell waits until it becomes popular and then jumps right in. I don't want more Chevy's, I want Porsche who dared to make high-end cars with rear engines, or maybe MINI (both times) with their tiny little speedster in the midst of hulking monsters.
Dell is every American automaker following the Honda Civic, Dell is the tag-along, the weasel, that damn kid who always copied your work and then claimed it was his.
Dell hasn't brought anything to the table, now if they came out with an MP3 player that played movies too, I'd be wholly impressed. If they used fuel cells, I'd be impressed. If they managed to come up with a new way of relating to the user, rather than the new cliche' round dial with buttons, I might even give them credit. But all they did was take the iPod template, wait until it became popular and safe and then they will try to capitilize on it. Apple and by extension the original MP3 maker made the MP3 player something we'd actually buy.
By the way for bonus points, who invented the photographic process and who invented the lightbulb? If you know this 1macker1 then we can talk some more.

[rjstanford]

Originally posted by hulugu
Dell waits until it becomes popular and then jumps right in ... Dell hasn't brought anything to the table, now if they came out with an MP3 player that played movies too, I'd be wholly impressed. If they used fuel cells, I'd be impressed. If they managed to come up with a new way of relating to the user, rather than the new cliche' round dial with buttons, I might even give them credit. But all they did was take the iPod template, wait until it became popular and safe and then they will try to capitilize on it. Apple and by extension the original MP3 maker made the MP3 player something we'd actually buy.Note: This is known as good business sense.

Besides, there are a couple of areas - let me quote from a Review (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,1364190,00.asp) of the Dell:

Battery life is impressive—we got about 16 hours of continuous play. The 30GB Apple iPod (recently tested in our "Let the Music Play" story) lasted only around 9 hours.

While less elegant than the Apple iPod, Dell's Digital Jukebox is generally easy to use, works well, and delivers great sound ... Dell is certainly putting forth a good, affordable first effort.

So it may not be, quite, the iPod, but with almost double the battery life for $100 less, maybe it won't have to be?

-Richard

[brooklyn]

Here's C/Net's (http://reviews.cnet.com/Dell_Digital_Jukebox_DJ__15GB_/4505-6490_7-30582921.html?tag=prmo1) Review of Dell's New DJ (for those interested).

[rjstanford]

Originally posted by brooklyn
Here's C/Net's (http://reviews.cnet.com/Dell_Digital_Jukebox_DJ__15GB_/4505-6490_7-30582921.html?tag=prmo1) Review of Dell's New DJ (for those interested). Interesting - especially the quote, "The area in which the DJ truly rocks is battery life: an astounding 19.5 hours--significantly more than the 16 hours that Dell claims. Charging the unit fully with the AC adapter takes about 6 hours. You can also charge the unit using the USB 1.1/2.0 connection, but that takes longer, and it doesn't work if the battery has run down to less than 25 percent." So this can be charged over USB (unlike the iPod). Now, I personally don't see this as a big deal, but its been quoted on this board as a major benefit to using the iPod on a Mac - does this make the Dell device better for Windows users than the iPod, or will it turn out that charging from the connection wire isn't that big a deal after all? Hmm? Also, it seems that the battery claims are substantiated (unlike a lot of the earlier suspicions of inflated claims here). I wonder if Apple can respond with better battery technology of its own? Sure hope so ... isn't competition nice?

-Richard

[arnette]

Originally posted by rjstanford
I wonder if Apple can respond with better battery technology of its own? Sure hope so ... isn't competition nice?

-Richard


right on. I agree with your entire post, more than what I just quoted. 4th generation iPods I'm sure will cover most of the Dell advantages. But they had better get going on it!

[dongmin]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
It's $30 less! That's not a huge improvement, you know!

um, no.

iPod 10GB: $299 ($29.9 per GB)
DJ 15GB: $249 ($16.6 per GB)

so if you argue by capacity per cost, the DJ is 56% of the cost of the iPod.

iPod 20GB: $399
DJ 20GB: $329

And please don't be quoting refurb prices or ebay prices. That's not what people will be comparing at when they're looking for a Xmas present.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by dongmin
um, no.

iPod 10GB: $299 ($29.9 per GB)
DJ 15GB: $249 ($16.6 per GB)

Originally posted by Macrumors
The "Dell Music Bundle" ($343 retail, $268 now) is described in the "Learn more..." link. This bundle includes a Dell DJ 15 Music Player, Sony Elements of Style Headphones, Dell DJ Car Adapter Kit, and Dell DJ Sport Case.

$268 for the Dell 15 GB DJ vs. $299 for a 10 GB iPod. The cost of the entry-level player is $30 less. Yes, you get 5 more GB, but it's still not a huge savings.

[tychay]

Originally posted by rjstanford
Hmm? Also, it seems that the battery claims are substantiated (unlike a lot of the earlier suspicions of inflated claims here). I wonder if Apple can respond with better battery technology of its own? Sure hope so ... isn't competition nice.

No, because it won't sell.

Huh?

There is no "better battery technology" in the Dell. The thing weighs 40% more and is bigger in all dimensions. Since all these players uses Li-Ion batteries it means that you can shape the battery to any size you want. Basically all Dell did was put in a bigger battery, not a better one.

Apple, on the other hand, realized from sales of 1G and 2G iPods that people don't want a bigger battery because the need is rare (docking connector and firewire means the system is always charged and easy to charge, rarely need more than 8 hours) and when that need materializes they have a healthy 3rd party market of solutions (battery packs, auto adapters, etc.).

They opted to make the iPod much smaller. Since I own a 1G iPod which has the same form factor as the Dell Pod (or, I should say, the reverse is true), I can surely understand and would gladly give up the few hours more battery life for Apple's new form factor.

Honestly, do you think the people at C|net actually plunked down their hard earned cash on this? Do you think they really use the thing regularly enough and in varied situations that the last few hours of more battery life made a difference (in other words, have they taken a flight from New York to San Francisco and back just for the hell of it)?

The thing that disappoints me is that when I go to Fry's all the iPods are in the Apple section. They should put them also next to the Creative, Rio, and Archos players also as most PC people avoid the Apple section as the "Mac" section.

No worry about ever seeing a Dell in there though. How do you think they save you the $50? Mostly by cutting out the retailer.

That business model plus the ridicule a college kid will get for buying such an "iPod knock off" means Dell will be lucky to recoup the ODM costs through sales. Especially after bribing c|net et.al. with advertising to publish favorable reviews of such an obviously behind-the-curve product.

My recommendation to PC users who don't want an iPod? Buy a Zen or a USB player.

[Juventuz]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
$268 for the Dell 15 GB DJ vs. $299 for a 10 GB iPod. The cost of the entry-level player is $30 less. Yes, you get 5 more GB, but it's still not a huge savings.

You get 5 gigs more, that's half of the $299 iPod's storage. Not to mention a car adapter which is nice to have.

[fourthtunz]

Originally posted by Juventuz
You get 5 gigs more, that's half of the $299 iPod's storage. Not to mention a car adapter which is nice to have.

Hey you can buy a car adapter for nothing:rolleyes:
If you can't afford a new ipod buy a refurb and it will still beat the duh-hell:D
But who knows, I don't own the duh-hell
maybe it will be a world beater.
They'll have to work quite a bit to beat the ease of use and functionality of an ipod, yeah Ilove mine:cool:
daniel

[Phil Of Mac]

The quality of the iPod more than makes up for the difference in cost.

[hulugu]

Originally posted by rjstanford
Note: This is known as good business sense.

Besides, there are a couple of areas - let me quote from a Review (http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,1364190,00.asp) of the Dell:

Battery life is impressive—we got about 16 hours of continuous play. The 30GB Apple iPod (recently tested in our "Let the Music Play" story) lasted only around 9 hours.

While less elegant than the Apple iPod, Dell's Digital Jukebox is generally easy to use, works well, and delivers great sound ... Dell is certainly putting forth a good, affordable first effort.

So it may not be, quite, the iPod, but with almost double the battery life for $100 less, maybe it won't have to be?

-Richard

But, that's just my point, Apple did all the R&D (or most of it anyway, I'll concede that they did not invent the MP3 player) and Dell gets to come out with their own copy, I understand this is good business sense, but that doesn't make it any better, business sense is often a rapacious and self-serving attitude centered on making money. This is what Apple doing too, but they actually give me something new and creative and interesting with the iPod, Dell just gave me the same thing, albiet in a different (IMHO lesser) version.
I don't mind the competition, I'd just like to see something new; like the new Sony Clie' or the Nokia that can double as an MP3 player. Those are far more interesting to me then whether or not Dell can sell cheap knockoffs.
And as for how the Dell stacks up against the iPod:
My uncle brought back a watch from Vietnam, on the face it is clearly a Casio, but on the back is a series of Chinese characters. It looks like a Casio, it tells time, but it still ain't a Casio.

And money, it's a gas. But, it ain't nothin either.

'Nuff said.

[Juventuz]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
The quality of the iPod more than makes up for the difference in cost.

quality? in what way?

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by Juventuz
quality? in what way?

Use one and you will understand.

[rjstanford]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
The quality of the iPod more than makes up for the difference in cost. Ah. So the quality of the iPod is worth more than $100 more (to you) than the quality of another item that you have nither used, nor in fact actually even seen in person?

I think that I understand your position better now.

-Richard

[the_dalex]

rjstanford, it's pretty obvious that you can judge a company's product quality by what they have consistently put out in the past.

Apple has consistently put out the highest quality products, with the iPod being one of their best.

Dell is known for using cheap, bulky, heavy form factors. Have you ever held an Inspiron laptop? It feels like a "Fisher Price My First Computer" or something along those lines.

Stop trying to ignore the fact that Apple makes better quality products than Dell, especially from a construction standpoint. In this market, Dell is not in direct competition with Apple any more than BMW is in direct competition with Ford. Similar products, but different target markets.

[hulugu]

I'm actually kidding rjstanford, but you do seem to like the Dell system quite a bit, it will be interesting to see what they actually put out.

Hope this dead horse is tenderized.

[rjstanford]

Originally posted by the_dalex
rjstanford, it's pretty obvious that you can judge a company's product quality by what they have consistently put out in the past.

Apple has consistently put out the highest quality products, with the iPod being one of their best.Two points here. First, there was a period of time when everybody knew and agreed that Hondas were crap compared to Fords. This reversed, in part because Ford was so confident of Honda never improving their quality that they didn't bother to keep up. Second, have you seen all of the complaints about the recent PowerBooks? At least one Apple fan was lamenting the fact that his 5-6 apples had had far more problems than his friends Dells.Dell is known for using cheap, bulky, heavy form factors. Have you ever held an Inspiron laptop? It feels like a "Fisher Price My First Computer" or something along those lines.Actually, I use one for work. Its about half-a-pound heavier than the powerbook, takes all kinds of abuse, and just keeps on working (still looks new, too). Lighter and more solid feeling than the iBooks though. I will agree that the Dells of a few years back were crap, though.Stop trying to ignore the fact that Apple makes better quality products than Dell, especially from a construction standpoint. In this market, Dell is not in direct competition with Apple any more than BMW is in direct competition with Ford. Similar products, but different target markets. Or any more than Ford was in competition with Honda before. Anyway, with an increasing number of posts like http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=563263#post563263 and http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=564866#post564866 showing up, let's hope that Apple gets their quality back on track. Also, any company who's business plan includes other companies not fixing their issues though is potentially in trouble.Originally posted by hulugu
you do seem to like the Dell system quite a bit, it will be interesting to see what they actually put out.Don't get me wrong. I like iPods. I have a 40gb iPod. Its very cool, and I never said that it wasn't. That doesn't automatically mean that other products are crap. I'm interested too, which is why I was getting a little annoyed at the "Well, its not Apple so it must be awful," posts, especially those trying to spread FUD about things like pricing ($100 under iPod), battery life (independantly confirmed), and usage as an external drive... this is serious competition.

That, and I like looking out for underdogs. I correct FUD when I see it - on other forums its mostly about Apples. Here, its mostly about Wintel PCs. Either way, its FUD.

-Richard