Quanta to Produce New iMacs

[MacRumors]

Appleinsider (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=231) reports that Quanta will be producing the upcoming iMac, which is rumored to have "major cosmetic changes" for early next year.

[Oirectine]

Exciting! Any ideas what the new ones will look like?

[x86isslow]

i havent used a lcd imac, how can they make it better? (to those who do have experience with them)
the current crop of imacs look fabulous.

[Mr. Anderson]

If they do a redesign....hmmm.....around MacWorld SanFran......cosmetic? Say metalic? Could we be seeing a single G5 in the iMac and all dual G5s in the PowerMacs?

Seems to be better odds now that this will happen.

D :D

[mvc]

Originally posted by x86isslow
i havent used a lcd imac, how can they make it better?

IMHO it needs to be cuter or sexier (quite apart from faster)! Currently the industrial design nods to the minimalist school of thought of the cube, which is great, but that's not the market its living in.

The original iMac nailed its market space from a design perspective, and while we can't go backwards, I reckon we will end up with a machine ya just want to cuddle again :p

[Exponent]

OK, while I like my stuff to be made in the U.S., I am cool with things being made in Taiwan, as they are a free country with good civil rights. They've held the line for freedom in the face of mainland China across the straits threatening them both with words and an ever-growing missile battery aimed at them.

But according to this article, which I hope isn't true, Quanta is shifting production over to Shanghai on the mainland. Crap.

For those that don't know why I'm throwing a conniption fit over this, China continues to have a horrible, horrible human rights record, and nobody seems to care about it, provided they make cheap stuff.

Are you a religious person? You better belong to the "Official" version of your church, or you may be prosecuted and your church leaders thrown in jail. The real Catholic Cardinal for China died in jail last year, because he wouldn't recognize the supremacy of the "Official Chinese" Catholic church.

Are you someone who'd like more than one kid? You better hide it well or bugger out of the country, because the government might just force an abortion on you or your spouse.

Are you an engineer wanting to design a cool chip, maybe for communication? Well, now Motorola engineering offices in China have Communist party political officers stationed in them, looking over your shoulder.

Are you a factory worker? Pay attention to this quote from the AI article: "In the new manufacturing facility, labor, electricity, tax and government fees will account for only 5 percent of manufacturing costs..." Nice to know your labor rates will support a nice livable community...

One last thing: When I first started working with Chinese engineers in this country, it was right after the Tiananmen Square massacre, and they seemed to truly appreciate the freedom of the west, and how wrong the Communists were.

Now the new ones coming over are just fine with repression - they have all kinds of excuses for why it is justified. I have yet to meet a new Chinese immigrant (in the last 5 years) with an interest in defending basic human rights. And they're coming over here, to California, by the boatloads.

So, a fine place to make an iMac, eh? Crap.

EDIT: Corrected spelling and grammar mistakes

[x86isslow]

woohoo, i've been upgraded to member.:)

If they do a redesign...<snip> Say metalic? <snip>

don't you think that they'd keep the consumer and pro lines separate? white consumer line, metallic pro line seems to be the trend.

[x86isslow]

Originally posted by Exponent
[B]OK, while I like my stuff to be made in the U.S., I am cool with things being made in Taiwan, as they are a free country with good civil rights.

taiwan doesnt have a stellar human rights record either. martial law ended in 1987. wasnt the KMT a dictatorship?

[Machead III]

Well, Apple's notebooks pwn, so I'm all for such an adventure!

[Exponent]

A couple of years ago, Taiwan had a democratic election where (at least executive) power changed from the Kuomintang party to the DDP. It was a big deal because the official party line of the DDP is that Taiwan should be an independent country from China.

Yes, Taiwan was under a military dictatorship when it was formed, (when Chang-Kai Sheck and crew retreated from the mainland), but they've been holding the line for freedom for well over a decade now. I'm sure things could be better, but it's head and shoulders better than the scumbuckets on the mainland.

For me, almost as troubling as the condions in the mainland are that a) they put up with it (you would think ex-pat chinese would be taking up arms for an overthrow), and b) leaders in U.S. industry love repression, if it makes manufacturing cheaper.

[Dont Hurt Me]

the original imac crt had 1 thing going for it. It was fun to look at and said lets play. the new lcd imac says i should be in a studio,dont touch! performance has allways been to low and cost to much. Emac should have been made the new imac and they should have done colors,anyways imac sales have sucked but what do you expect from low performance & high cost. Apple could have simply fixed this with a g5 imac in current form but i think they have something else in mind. Ill say it one more time just in case anybody who is somebody at APPLE see this.CONSUMERS ARE GAMERS take your fx5200 and shove it! they act like this card is supposed to be something.

[x86isslow]

Originally posted by Exponent
A couple of years agoTaiwan had a democratic election where (at least executive) power changed from the Kuomintang party to the DDP.

Yes, Taiwan was under a military dictatorship when it was formed, but they've been holding the line for freedom for well over a decade now.

and china has been liberalizing of late no?

i recall reading that the new prez is backing multi-candidate local elections, and reforming the communist party to provide accountability.

well in any case, the future will test the theory that capitalism (like china joining the wto) will bring forth change in commie nations.. this claim was made repeatedly about why we should end the cuba embargo.

[JasonElise1983]

Well, i like the way the iMac looks currently. I do agree think more and more consumers are gamers now, but i don't the iMac is where they need to go with that. I think they need to throw the eMac away, update the imac, and make a lowend headless G4/G5 box as the consumer/gamer computer. If apple could make an affordable box that didn't have a monitor, i think they would reach a mouch wider audience. oh, the FX5200 is a piece of ****. The 128Mb one in a PC is pretty bad, but that 64Mb one just blows. They need to up the G5's to 256Mb ATI Radeon 9800 XT's. That would bring a few gamers in.

[Exponent]

...and reforming the communist party to provide accountability.

This was a promise (not fufilled) after the disaster of dishonest SARS reporting.

well in any case, the future will test the theory that capitalism (like china joining the wto) will bring forth change in commie nations.. this claim was made repeatedly about why we should end the cuba embargo.

I think all it does it does is screw over all of us who've been paying major taxes to support the cause of freedom around the world. If you'll notice, for all of the new prosperity mainland China has, a) they haven't reciprocated with IMPORTING anywhere near equivalent numbers of U.S. Goods, and b) they've been more and more beligerant to their neighbors. (Witness the attempted crackdown on civil rights in Hong Kong.)

Money doesn't make scum nice, it only makes them more powerful scum. Witness Cuba - they don't have an embargo with well over half of the world's economy - yet it is still a crummy dictatorship, and has been tightening the screws in the past few months.

I'm all for world trade - provided it is with free countries with some basic standards of living (as these cost money to implement), and the countries actually import as much as they export.

[x86isslow]

Originally posted by JasonElise1983
...I think they need to throw the eMac away...

the emac is a solid computer for the classroom, where the toughest game played is oregon trail (oh! the memories) or whatnot.

i'm not quite sure apple is ready to slap a g5 and a top-of-the-line graphics card into the emac and sell it to schools..
ooh look at the kindergardner use fcp on the emac!
:rolleyes:

[the_mole1314]

I've heard that there won't be any changes in the design, but some form factor, size, and other things will change.

Read: computer base with arm with LCD off of it style should stay.

[iMax531]

I know that Apple (Steve) ahs decided that colors are out and white and grey and silver are in, but in reality, so many people were attracted to the original iMac because it was (god forbid) cute. People liked that they could choose the best color to suit them, it was a little more personalized. That's an important thing for the mind of a consumer.

Colored iPods? HOT
Colored iMacs? HOT
Colored ibooks? HOT

Colored Powerbooks/G5s? Bad idea. Keep those industrial and cool - give the consumers some color.

[Exponent]

I think a lot of the colors / lack thereof has to do with the state of the economy. I saw the same thing back in Michigan with the car industry: in bad times, people want less noticable colors, in good times they're willing to be flamboyant.

Considering the good economic news coming out this week, I think we could be seeing more colorful Apple stuff before too long....

[Superdrive]

I love my FP! I wonder how Apple will make improvements cosmetically. I have faith, but I don't have money. This machine is still running like new (esp. w/ panther) and it is 1 1/2 years old. Gotta love the life span of Macs.

[uiop]

I knew apple was redesigning the iMac about 5 months ago.

Someone close to apple had told me that they were unable to get the monitor holder/handle metal thing at a reasonable price and were going for a redesign.

[macMaestro]

Throw away the eMac? Heck no!

Apple NEEDS a low-cost low-end mac.

Replace eMac with low-cost headless Cube like thing? I could live with that...

[crenz]

Hmm... I hope they will not continue to cripple them, since now the PowerMacs are at a significant distance from the iMacs, and cheap word-processing PCs abound...

Design-wise, it's going to be interesting. I can't imagine them going back to CRT. Either they find another way to attach a TFT, or they'll allow you to connect an external monitor... Either way, I'm curious what will come out of it.

[Mudbug]

It's hard to think of the current FPiMac as being the "oldest" design product in the run - but I guess it really is. Kinda sad to me - I love the looks of the current model - so futuristic, minimal, inviting, and functional.

It really does make me wonder "what's next..."

[Sabenth]

I love the fp iMac there is one problem with them thats the price compared to an eMac.. but dont chuck the eMac away its a great system.

Design wise i think it might be a cube with a flip screen oh look its a huge PB intresting idea but very bad i guess..

Maybe it would be a plastic arm and a little wider and higher maybe a bit of room for upgrades

[sethypoo]

Maybe they could give cunsumers a choice: White, lower end, cheaper FP iMac's for basic computing needs, and metallic, high end, more expensive G5 based iMac's for pro's/power hungry folks.

Makes sense to me!

:) :rolleyes: :D

[Phil Of Mac]

1. Communist China has turned into a good example of sham capitalism. I suppose they can become a good example of a sham democracy as well.
2. The Kuomintang were indeed an unelected military dictatorship. But they did allow a great deal of civil freedom compared to the PRC. And present-day Taiwan is even better.
3. This won't be the first time Apple products are Made In China.

[macmax]

no need to worry for the fedex leaving airborne in the dark delays anymore, dhl bought airborne

[sethypoo]

And whoever said FP iMac's are slow?????

Wasn't it just a year ago we were praising the G4 for being a "supercomputer"?????

FP iMac's are great, solid computers. I'd have one if I wasn't a student and needed a laptop.

:) :rolleyes: :D

[Rocketman]

Wouldn't it be interesting if the new iMac "shared functional and visual elements with a notebook", or

was YA cube.

Rocketman

Year of the notebook - on steroids?

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by sethypoo
And whoever said FP iMac's are slow?????

Wasn't it just a year ago we were praising the G4 for being a "supercomputer"?

One question mark is enough.

And no, that was 1999. A year ago, we were complaining about Motorola and their slow G4.

[sethypoo]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
One question mark is enough.

And no, that was 1999. A year ago, we were complaining about Motorola and their slow G4.

One question mark is enough..... if you want to be boring.

To most consumers and those who don't spend their time making posts on a site like this, a G4 a year ago and a G4 in 1999 were the same processor.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[sethypoo]

I suppose that the reason I think FP iMac's are fast is because the only one I have used is a 1GHz G4 with 1GB of RAM. That RAM really helps.

But still, FP iMac's are *not* slow, even with only 256MB of RAM.

[singletrack]

Originally posted by Exponent
I'm all for world trade - provided it is with free countries with some basic standards of living (as these cost money to implement), and the countries actually import as much as they export.

I suspect they could if the US didn't subsidise it's own industries so much. Importing from the US usually completely kills your local economy or you're forced to subsidise it heavily to level it out or suffer from McD style economic imperialism invading your country at the expense of local businesses.

[MrMacMan]

Exponent -- Your view is more Politically based, anyway it isn't that communism has to be bundled with stright rules and harsh punishments, its just the way they do it there.

Their human rights issue is a problem, but heck a rather large portion of goods bought by this country is made from china.

The current models of iMac *are* slow.

I would like a heck of a lot more CPU when I got this thing...

arg.

[x86isslow]

i think american agri exports are as or even more dangerous to other economies compared to manufactures.

[Phil Of Mac]

The only danger is that they might have to switch to producing other products that they have a comparative advantage in. And they almost inevitably have a comparative advantage in something.

[sethypoo]

Originally posted by MrMacman
Exponent -- Your view is more Politically based, anyway it isn't that communism has to be bundled with stright rules and harsh punishments, its just the way they do it there.

Their human rights issue is a problem, but heck a rather large portion of goods bought by this country is made from china.

The current models of iMac *are* slow.

I would like a heck of a lot more CPU when I got this thing...

arg.

Slow for what? Rendering a photo or movie? FP iMac= about 20 secs
G5= 10 secs, give or take

(the above numbers are an estimate.....don't jump on my back!)

There is not much of a difference. Consumers, WON'T know the difference! That's all I'm saying. Not everything in this world has to run like a G5, learn some patience!

Just to be childish: the FP iMac's are *not* slow.

[Dippo]

I think that the iMac is still suffering from the performance/cost problem that the powermacs suffered from before the G5.

Once the G5's are introduced into the iMac's, that shouldn't be a problem.

Of course, I wouldn't buy one because monitors don't age the same as the computer. While the computer might be out of date in 2 years, a 17" LCD would still be the standard.

[sethypoo]

Wouldn't it be neat if you could remove the LCD screen as you wish? Like, for example, have both ends of the metallic arm of the current model FP iMac have Apple DVI connectors on either end?

That way, you could mount the screen on the wall, or put the dome under your desk with a cord.....or even, when you upgrade to a new computer, one could take the screen from the FP iMac and use it elsewhere!

Neat.....unlikely, but neat.

:) :rolleyes: :D

[dho]

Originally posted by sethypoo
Slow for what? Rendering a photo or movie? FP iMac= about 20 secs
G5= 10 secs, give or take

(the above numbers are an estimate.....don't jump on my back!)

There is not much of a difference. Consumers, WON'T know the difference! That's all I'm saying. Not everything in this world has to run like a G5, learn some patience!

Just to be childish: the FP iMac's are *not* slow.
I would have to agree

my cube limits me to doing consumer stuff, but with enough ram it still feels speedy:eek:
not to say I would mind a g5. Then I would do more video stuff and my cube would be "slow"

edit: I feel more limted by the computer as a unit (no dvd burner small hd...)

anyway that is good news:D

[Dippo]

Maybe they can just replace the iMac with the new Cube. I think the Cube was a good idea but just a little before it's time (just like the Newton)

At least they could introduce an Anniversary Cube or something.

[dho]

Originally posted by Dippo
Maybe they can just replace the iMac with the new Cube. I think the Cube was a good idea but just a little before it's time (just like the Newton)

At least they could introduce an Anniversary Cube or something.

good idea,

if it is ugly maybe I could swap out the innards and put them in my current pretty cube :)

edit: something random I just realized is that my cube is probably more easily caried around then a 17'' pb:)

edit2: :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[cubist]

Just about everything you buy these days is made in China. Not just computers, but shoes, clothes, dishes, furniture... people are addicted to the low prices and they don't notice or care that there really isn't any American shoe industry anymore, or clothing industry, or ... computer industry...

Anyway, we can only speculate as to what the iMac will be. My guess is that it will be cheaper. But Apple seems to be intro'ing products at seemingly random intervals, whenever they're ready. It doesn't seem like they're going to collect a bunch of stuff for a big splash at MWSF. Maybe MWSF will be all about Panther and iTunes for Windows and iSight for Windows, software updates, stuff like that.

[LimeLite]

Hmm, I always thought that this patent (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2002/12/20021227191929.shtml) might have had something to do with the iMacs. I mean, the original colored ones were great for suiting your personality...how about one that is able to suit your mood? That would be pretty awesome.

[mrsebastian]

you might be right limelight, i was wondering what ever happened to that patent myself. the general consensus has been that it would be used for the ipod... ah the rumors!

personally i hope that apple redesigns the imac to be based on apple flat panel displays. everything built into that form factor would really be something!

[cgmpowers]

Either the ability to change colors of the shell (ie: sometime ago someone talked about color shifting or color changing material). I personally miss the colors. I still have a Strawberry iMac but I used to have a Blue Dalmation, my favorite colored iMac...and would have killed for a lime iMac..loved that color.

I had a Keylime iBook and couldn't get over how many people came over to look at it..when I had it out and about..it was a cool laptop. I love my 17" powerbook, but colors are cooler in my opinion..

Maybe a 19" iMac, that'd be cool. I'd love a detatchable screen (with wifi) so I can turn my screen into a tablet (wacom built into the screen)...that'd be a total kick!

Christopher

[Exponent]

Importing from the US usually completely kills your local economy or you're forced to subsidize it heavily to level it out or suffer from McD style economic imperialism invading your country at the expense of local businesses.

It only kills the local economy if the local economy doesn't export value equal to what they import. Trade is supposed to allow each locality to specialize in what they do best, what they do most efficiently.

The U.S. is obviously willing to be a customer base for exports, they just need to get off their duffs and make something we need. (I know, imperfectly, we protect agriculture and steel, among others.) On the other hand, countries like mainland China just want to export, not import, and that's a recipe that leads to the U.S. losing its wealth.

To MrMacMan:
Your view is more Politically based, anyway it isn't that communism has to be bundled with straight rules and harsh punishments, its just the way they do it there.


Well, I'll use your reply as a way of tying this back to the original subject. Is saying "its just the way they do it there" really in line with the Apple philosophy of "Making the world better, one person at a time"?

If we really think that a computer is a fundamentally powerful tool, then we should also think about who we are supporting when we buy our computers. Do these people use the money we give them to elevate the individual, or do they use it to help keep others suppressed lower than themselves?

While I may sometimes disagree with the politics of Apple Computer, or Taiwan, or the U.S. Government, I also know that supporting them also helps support a system and community that (sometimes imperfectly) protects everyone's liberties. That's part of the good karma you get when you buy an iMac - right now.

But if iMac's are made in a repressive state like mainland China, I know that a chunk of that money is going to people who go out of their way to crush liberties. Bad karma, in a major way.

Are we really so lazy as consumers that we toss aside fundamental abuses with "the guys that I'm paying for this, well, they're different, so I'll buy that widget anyways"? I hope not, especially the Mac community.

EDIT: Grammar correction

[Ja Di ksw]

Originally posted by x86isslow
the emac is a solid computer for the classroom, where the toughest game played is oregon trail (oh! the memories)

Oregon Trail!!!! HAHAHAHA, I remember that game, your right, that does bring back the memories

Anyway, back to the topic, which seems rare in this thread, where, and when, do you think we're going to get the information about the new iMac look? I don't really know how good AppleInsiders reputation is, so I'm not sure on how much to trust them. Are they making the casing themselves, or building the machines with the casing someone else is making? If so, we might be able to look at who is making the casing to try and get a general feel. That reminds me too much of MacWhispers, though, and we all saw how accurate that site was

[pjtro2]

Originally posted by mrsebastian
personally i hope that apple redesigns the imac to be based on apple flat panel displays. everything built into that form factor would really be something!

I've spent a great deal of time thinking about the imac redesign and was thinking exactly the same thing. The original imac was an all-in-one. FP iMac saw the separation of the display and 'innards'. A return to all in one via FP seems like the next logical step. A nice slot loading drive on the side, and a work around so the bluetooth keyboard and mouse are pre-paired with your system. As an all-in-one G5, the cooling technology adopted would also act as a precursor to the PB G5.. Seeing it wall-mountable would really spin my beanie... (I can hear the collective panting of desire from 'space challenged' designers worldwide...)

[blazorama]

www.macosrumors.com seems to have heard similar rumblings...

[Superdrive]

I'm thinking that we will simply be surprised in January. They will come out of left field, just like the iBooks. May the colors return!

[JW Pepper]

i just don't know how you can improve on sucha brilliant design. If it means adding a G5, I am sure that looks are going to be compromised as a result. The only thing I would really like to change is yet another screen size (20" will do nicely) increase, a 250GB HD option and... Move the damm cd tray up so that it clrears the keyboard!

[macphoria]

I hope new iMac will go back to its roots and adopt simpler design, without the neck and movable display.

As much as I like current iMac's beautiful design, I can't stand subtle horizontal shift of display caused by the neck.

I'd be happy with iMac that looks like Studio Display 15" with CPU parts kept in the back.

[Phil Of Mac]

There's really no necessity to balance imports and exports. China's only hurting themselves by trying to export more than they import.

[pjtro2]

Originally posted by Superdrive
I'm thinking that we will simply be surprised in January. They will come out of left field, just like the iBooks. May the colors return!

As always, I'm sure everyone will be.

However, as for colour, I'm more than happy to see the end of it and keep the aesthetic clean and neutral. But perhaps they could offer skins, like cell phone covers that you could simply choose and clip on.. or then again it's back to that mysterious patent again...

[ColoJohnBoy]

I keep trying to imagine a revolutionary improvement to the iMac's design, and I just can't come up with anything. Of course, I'm sure few people outside Apple conceived the current iMac's design - it's now something of an icon.

PS - I'd love to join in the whole "ethics-of-production-in-China" discussion, but I think it's better left to the political forums. Stay on topic, kids. ;)

[rdowns]

Originally posted by blazorama
www.macosrumors.com seems to have heard similar rumblings...

Oh please be true. I'm so glad I put off the new 17" iMac purchase and just bought Panther to upgrade the aging G3 600 MHz iMac. What I really want is a G5 (1.8 GHz with a 900 Mhz bus would be awesome) 17". If a 25th anniversary (overpriced, of course) with a larger display and netter specs comes, count me in.

I spoke to my financial advisor today and even though I told im last month how much new money I'd be sending, I told him $3,000 less today so I'd have cash for a new iMac come January.

[Phil Of Mac]

Skins, like cell phone covers? That's kind of tacky, in my opinion.

Hey, as long as the new iMac doesn't have a hammer and sickle painted on it, I'm happy :)

[rdowns]

Originally posted by blazorama
www.macosrumors.com seems to have heard similar rumblings...

Oh please be true. I'm so glad I put off the new 17" iMac purchase and just bought Panther to upgrade the aging G3 600 MHz iMac. What I really want is a G5 (1.8 GHz with a 900 Mhz bus would be awesome) 17". If a 25th anniversary (overpriced, of course) with a larger display and better specs comes, count me in.

I spoke to my financial advisor today and even though I told him last month how much new money I'd be sending, I told him $3,000 less today so I'd have cash for a new iMac come January.

edit: typos

[Centris 650]

I'm going way out on this one...

Many people have said that they wished apple would come out with a "headless iMac"(aka HIM). Also, the refurbed Power Macs (1ghz, 1.25 ghz and 1.42 ghz) all seem to be selling well. (I can't see Apple not taking note of thiis.) And also, it has been said that the Cube was Steve's fave. Though a HIM would not be a major break through in design I think it would be cool. Thoug a HIM does go against the All-In-One form that the iMac is known for.

[rdowns]

[i]

PS - I'd love to join in the whole "ethics-of-production-in-China" discussion, but I think it's better left to the political forums. Stay on topic, kids. ;) [/B]

I want my G5 iMac. I don't care if 6 year old Kathie Lee Gifford offspring are making it. :D :D :D

[Phil Of Mac]

Not a headless iMac. A Cube. A G5 Cube!

[pjtro2]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Skins, like cell phone covers? That's kind of tacky, in my opinion.

Only trying to please everyone! -- How about something like the image below:

[Phil Of Mac]

In my opinion, the adjustable screen is the main advantage of the iMac. Why would you try to get rid of it?

Internal speakers are appealing, but hardly necessary...

[evolu]

Just speculating here - but iMacs have always had interesting designs based around the discplay somehow... All in one computer, movable flat panel display...

The displays are due for redesign... And if the rumors are true of a 30" display in the works a new technology must be allowing that kind of size/performance.

A new iMac will not just be a redesign, it would have to strategically impliment a new technology... The iMac was Apple's most attention getting product until the iPod.

i think it will be a technologically fuelled leap forward in design as it has always been.

(and if they can get the flip down CD cover thingie to not hit my keyboard when it spits a cd out, I'll be happy)

[Phil Of Mac]

I think the iMacs should move to a slot-load drive, personally.

[pjtro2]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
I think the iMacs should move to a slot-load drive, personally.

Here's one i prepared earlier.. :D

[aethier]

Originally posted by rdowns
I want my G5 iMac. I don't care if 6 year old Kathie Lee Gifford offspring are making it. :D :D :D

lol, yeah for real, if we didn;t have cheap Chinese labor, our Macs would be even more expensive.

aethier

[SeaFox]

Originally posted by blazorama
www.macosrumors.com seems to have heard similar rumblings...

Yeah, they went to AppleInsider and saw the article.

[Steven1621]

anyone think about 3d displays in the new imac?

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by Steven1621
anyone think about 3d displays in the new imac?

That would be revolutionary and not that unprecedented (I was gonna say they'd release that in a separate display first, then realized that iMacs had USB before Power Macs, so why not 3D displays?)

I think the next iMac should be centered on home entertainment though. Just an idea :)

[Coca-Cola]

In my Opinion.....
I think Apple would love to have a wireless iMac. Wireless, Wireless, Wireless, Wireless! Airpanel. Wireless Keyboard. Wireless Mouse. The base (cute Cube) would need a wire for power and nothing else. Thats all. ONE FREAKING WIRE! Just think how handy it would be to have a wireless display in your home With some big ole G5 beaming some good stuff at it from across the room. That would be huge. It would be a desktop/notepad.

[eclipse525]

I currently own a 17" FP and I'm still not bored of it. Which by the way is very unusal for me. I get bored real easy. I'm still amazed by the design and performance. This is going to be a tough redesign and I'm sure it'll be a departure from we have now. I'm almost sure they'll go with the Aluminum look, to keep in line with the other products. As far as aesthetics go, I have no clue as to what they can pull off. Considering the current design can't support the G5 heat problem. Oh yeah and I'm sure they will have G5's in them. They won't go through all the trouble of a redesign and put G4's. Just plain stupid.


~e

[Phil Of Mac]

A wireless display would be freaking difficult, but nice to see nonetheless.

An iMac has a built-in display though! So I guess you could have a wireless iMac, with just the power cable. The rest is certainly doable (maybe not speakers, we've had this discussion before with the iPod and wireless headphones). But do you really want your roommate to be able to throw his mouse at you whenever he wants to? :)

[sushi]

Originally posted by pjtro2
Only trying to please everyone! -- How about something like the image below:
This would be way cool.

Include a wireless keyboard and mouse.

Simple desktop. Minimal wires/cables needed. Easy to transport.

I still like this design years after it was first introduced (prior to the current FP iMac design).

Sushi

[rotorblade]

With everything from the 20th Anniversary Macintosh to current day products under his belt, I'm sure Mr. Ive will deliver.

[sushi]

Originally posted by rotorblade
With everything from the 20th Anniversary Macintosh to current day products under his belt, I'm sure Mr. Ive will deliver.
Yep, I bet he will.

Got a TAM. Nice machine!

Sushi

[sethypoo]

Originally posted by sushi
This would be way cool.

Include a wireless keyboard and mouse.

Simple desktop. Minimal wires/cables needed. Easy to transport.

I still like this design years after it was first introduced (prior to the current FP iMac design).

Sushi

Yes, and even more stuff to lose!

How would the wireless monitor be powered? There's another cable for you, plus one for the CPU, plus speaker cables, ethernet, Firewire, printer cables, and probably security locks for those of us in college.

Though it would be way cool, have your CPU in the living room, with your monitor in the kitchen/backyard/bathroom/bedroom/couch.

Wireless everything is a little far fetched, I think. Probably an aluminum theme with an attached monitor, and a G5, if they can figure out how to cool the darn thing.




Edit: cables, and more cables!

[Coca-Cola]

Wireless monitor far fetched eh? How about this then....
http://www.viewsonic.com/products/airpanel_airpanel100.htm

How can apple let pc users have this up on them. It's not a tablet pc. It's a monitor.

[Coca-Cola]

oh, yeah, I forgot. There are some wireless printers out there too.

[dho]

a super thin OLED display would be nice :)

edit: anyone know how far development of oleds is right now

[dho]

Originally posted by Coca-Cola
Wireless monitor far fetched eh? How about this then....
http://www.viewsonic.com/products/airpanel_airpanel100.htm

How can apple let pc users have this up on them. It's not a tablet pc. It's a monitor.

I like it :)

all they need is an ultra high bandwidth,non line of site, cheap, and low latency data transfer system to make it useable.

I myself can handle apple remote desktop over a 56k modem for some things, but as a main monitor it needs to be so fast and accurate that no one will notice it is there

otherwise it would be hard to sell over 10 units

[Coca-Cola]

I think oled are far fetched right now as far as price goes. But you never know. I really don't want to see iMacs go up in price.

[voicegy]

*High-end "25th Anniversary Mac"/Special Edition version, possibly with larger (19-20 inches) widescreen.

That was from MacOSRumors...and it's something I've been speculating about (and hoping for!) all year long.

I loved the TAM when I had one for a couple of years...it gave me total pleasure, although it was getting old. It had so many "firsts"...side mounted floppy drive, front load cdrom with remote control drop-down door...Bose sound system with subwoofer, and, of course, a flat screen, which was just unheard of.

Apple would have to pull out all the stops to beat what the TAM did for forward looking design and capabilities. An iMac redesign may or may not be in the works...I have no idea how they could improve upon that, as I think it was the hottest thing to come out since the TAM. But what I'm really hoping for is a machine to celebrate the years that Apple has been with us, and/or the years that Macintosh has been around.

So it would be either a limited edition 25th Anniversary "Apple" machine (Apple's 25th Anniversary is next year) or a 20th Anniversary Macintosh (the Macintosh is 20 years old next year.) Either way...bring it on...I've been waiting!! This MacWorld promises to be one of the best ever!:D

[sushi]

Originally posted by sethypoo
Yes, and even more stuff to lose!

How would the wireless monitor be powered? There's another cable for you, plus one for the CPU, plus speaker cables, ethernet, Firewire, printer cables, and probably security locks for those of us in college.

Though it would be way cool, have your CPU in the living room, with your monitor in the kitchen/backyard/bathroom/bedroom/couch.

Wireless everything is a little far fetched, I think. Probably an aluminum theme with an attached monitor, and a G5, if they can figure out how to cool the darn thing.




Edit: cables, and more cables!
I think that you might have misunderstood me.

pjtro2 posted this image.

This is very similar to an idea that was mentioned before the FP iMac came out.

This design idea has everything in the display unit (CPU, memory, etc., vertical Superdrive/Combo Drive, speakers).

A wireless keyboard and mouse would be nice on a system like this, but not required.

The beauty of the original Mac and then the iMac was the ability to transport the system when you needed to. I am suggesting having two such as a 17" (Using a display like the current FP iMac uses) and a 20" Cinema Display version where everything is in the display. Thiis would be very useful for those who have limited desktop space but need to use their computer in more than one place, but do not want a laptop.

Sushi

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by rotorblade
With everything from the 20th Anniversary Macintosh to current day products under his belt, I'm sure Mr. Ive will deliver.

Are you sure Ive designed the 20th Anniversary Macintosh? His work since 1997 has been remarkably different...

Originally posted by Coca-Cola
Wireless monitor far fetched eh? How about this then....
http://www.viewsonic.com/products/airpanel_airpanel100.htm

How can apple let pc users have this up on them. It's not a tablet pc. It's a monitor.

Actually, it is a separate PC, or to be more precise, a terminal. It's not a monitor at all. And it has crappy resolution.

Originally posted by Coca-Cola
oh, yeah, I forgot. There are some wireless printers out there too.

You don't need massive bandwidth to print with.

[iDave]

Originally posted by sushi
pjtro2 posted this image.

This is very similar to an idea that was mentioned before the FP iMac came out.

This design idea has everything in the display unit (CPU, memory, etc., vertical Superdrive/Combo Drive, speakers).

Optical drives don't work well in a vertical orientation. Count that idea out.

Now that current iMacs have a floating display, I believe Apple would be foolish not to include one in any new design. It's the iMac's best feature. Same goes for any new displays they might be cooking up.

A small headless Mac should be a separate product. Perhaps a cube-like design for about the same price as an eMac.

[pjtro2]

I'm on a speculative roll...

The clear outer border on the existing imacs is essentially for tilting the display.. what about doing away with it and extending the white border down into the feet? (speakers optional..) I love the little studio speakers that come with the imac, but they work because there is the dome to sit them on either side of. If they do away with the dome, surely they would re-integrate the speakers in to the body of the unit for the sake of a cleaner aesthetic?

[sushi]

Originally posted by iDave
Optical drives don't work well in a vertical orientation. Count that idea out.
I understand what you are saying and would agree looking at past drives.

However, there seem to be some good veritical models out there these days.

Sushi

[Phil Of Mac]

Why are you trying to do away with the adjustable display? Apple is not going to abandon the current iMac design ethic, and for good reason. As Steve and Ive both explained when the iMac was introduced, the purpose is to let both the computer and monitor be true to their own nature: the computer to its horizontal nature and the screen to its vertical nature. They conscientiously rejected vertical-computer designs for that very reason. So, while you might like these ideas, they aren't very plausible.

[iDave]

I believe it was in that introduction that Steve Jobs said vertical optical drives didn't work well. Whether or not that obstacle has been overcome, I don't know.

[pjtro2]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Why are you trying to do away with the adjustable display? Apple is not going to abandon the current iMac design ethic, and for good reason. As Steve and Ive both explained when the iMac was introduced, the purpose is to let both the computer and monitor be true to their own nature: the computer to its horizontal nature and the screen to its vertical nature. They conscientiously rejected vertical-computer designs for that very reason. So, while you might like these ideas, they aren't very plausible.

I am not trying to do away with the adjustable display.. merely exploring options in hope of further dialogue. I appreciate what you are saying in regards to the devices being true to their own nature. But I think it would be wrong to assume that any one opinion is necessarily correct. Apple has continued to suprise and delight Mac fans with every new release and I'm sure this will be no exception.
We are all speculating here, and as your tag line suggests, "Of course it is insane drivel... it's a rumor site"...

[sushi]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Why are you trying to do away with the adjustable display? Apple is not going to abandon the current iMac design ethic, and for good reason. As Steve and Ive both explained when the iMac was introduced, the purpose is to let both the computer and monitor be true to their own nature: the computer to its horizontal nature and the screen to its vertical nature. They conscientiously rejected vertical-computer designs for that very reason. So, while you might like these ideas, they aren't very plausible.
I would beg to differ.

After owning a TAM and a Quicksilver with 22" Cinema Display, while the iMac display adjustment is nice, the other two mentioned do just fine -- and in some cases are better.

Plus, IMHO, the FP iMac has a serious flaw with the darn drive door that hits the keyboard or display if all the way down.

The current FP iMac has many design limitations due to the small base. Plus I have read where the current design cannot support a bigger display due to weight/balance issues.

As one person already mentioned, it really irks me to see the display slightly tilted on the FP iMacs. While minor, it bugs the S__t out of me. Go figure.

Anyhow, by using a monitor style all in one computer, designers have lots of room to play with. This allows for faster CPUs, better video cards, more expanability, etc., while having a very stable design.

What I know, is that nothing is in concrete. People and things change.

Sushi

[sushi]

What can I say, I like the all in one concept. I am tired of cables and cables and cables.

Here is a nice example from Sony:

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start;sid=JLa4UI1LPRi4ULLq3IqyW8JbY81uxdaucaM=?CategoryName=cpu_VAIODesktopComputers_VSeries&ProductSKU=PCVV100GKIT1&Dept=cpu

Sushi

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by sushi
I would beg to differ.

After owning a TAM and a Quicksilver with 22" Cinema Display, while the iMac display adjustment is nice, the other two mentioned do just fine -- and in some cases are better.

Your 22" Cinema Display doesn't have a Superdrive attached to it. And the TAM had an uncharacteristically slow CD-ROM drive, even for its time.

Originally posted by sushi
Plus, IMHO, the FP iMac has a serious flaw with the darn drive door that hits the keyboard or display if all the way down.

Yeah, let's abandon the adjustable display to correct a totally unrelated flaw. It's called using a slot-load drive. Design flaw fixed.

Originally posted by sushi
The current FP iMac has many design limitations due to the small base. Plus I have read where the current design cannot support a bigger display due to weight/balance issues.

Well, my speculative idea is basically a wider and slimmer baseplate with ports on the sides and a slot-load drive in front with perhaps more than one support for the display. Above the baseplate you could have a slightly curving dome, or not. I'm not sure which would be better.

Originally posted by sushi
As one person already mentioned, it really irks me to see the display slightly tilted on the FP iMacs. While minor, it bugs the S__t out of me. Go figure.

Best solution: develop a way to lock the monitor into place.
Swat-a-fly-with-a-Buick solution: Make it impossible to adjust the display by basing it on the Studio Display.

Originally posted by sushi
Anyhow, by using a monitor style all in one computer, designers have lots of room to play with. This allows for faster CPUs, better video cards, more expanability, etc., while having a very stable design.

And make it look like the Anna Nicole Smith of flat-panel screens in the process. No, the current base-and-screen setup offers the same potential with less design compromises.

[sushi]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac No, the current base-and-screen setup offers the same potential with less design compromises.

And that is your opinion.

Others differ.

I see computers like this being sold like hotcakes over here in Japan:

http://www.vaio.sony.co.jp/Products/PCV-W701B/

Sushi

[Phil Of Mac]

Apple already has a few computers designed like that.

http://a1888.g.akamai.net/7/1888/51/5d31735ff90e4f/www.apple.com/powerbook/images/17index_bottom_09172003.jpg

[sushi]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
And the TAM had an uncharacteristically slow CD-ROM drive, even for its time.
I fail to see your point. Now days, you can get good vertical CD/DVD drives. This is a moot point.

We are talking concepts here. Not what was.

I merely mentioned my TAM and 22" Cinema Display to illustrate that there have been other concepts that worked well as far as adjusting the display viewing angle. The FP iMac is a nice concept. But there are others out there as well.

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Best solution: develop a way to lock the monitor into place.
Swat-a-fly-with-a-Buick solution: Make it impossible to adjust the display by basing it on the Studio Display.
Again, I fail to see your point.

Yes, the FP iMac display can rotate. If that is real important to you, then fine.

But as for vertical adjustments, the TAM and Cinema Displays can do that quite effectively.

Sushi

[sushi]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Apple already has a few computers designed like that.
Not even close!!!

Are you even looking at the URLs that I post before replying?

Do you have any idea what the capabilities of the devices are?

I would suggest that you look into them before replying. You might be surprised as to what is out there.

Sushi

[pjtro2]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
And make it look like the Anna Nicole Smith of flat-panel screens in the process. No, the current base-and-screen setup offers the same potential with less design compromises.

Time and time again, Apple have made the impossible, possible. I really think to be 'matter-of-fact' about a unreleased product is kind of silly.

I think the current format iMacs are fantastic. (I only got my 17" 1.25ghz + bluetooth kboard & mouse, 2 weeks ago - and love it.) - and as many people have commented, it is hard to imagine a better design. But you can be assured they will. I'm sure prior to the FP imac release there was much talk along the same lines. What's the point of a discussion if you can't voice your opinion without being torn down?

[sushi]

Originally posted by pjtro2
Time and time again, Apple have made the impossible, possible.
Well put! :D

That is why I like Apple so much and have enjoyed their creations beginning with the Mac SE. :cool:

Sushi

[iDave]

Originally posted by sushi


Yes, the FP iMac display can rotate. If that is real important to you, then fine.

But as for vertical adjustments, the TAM and Cinema Displays can do that quite effectively.
I disagree. I find the Cinema Displays to be completely non-adjustable. I always kept mine in its most vertical position which for my preference wasn't vertical enough. Who would want to tilt it back? That IS the only adjustment.

I suppose if you're a very tall person or sit in a very high chair, you might want to tilt it back.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by sushi
I fail to see your point. Now days, you can get good vertical CD/DVD drives. This is a moot point.

We are talking concepts here. Not what was.

You're the one bringing up the TAM.

Can you get vertical CD/DVD drives that are as fast as the horizontal ones?

Originally posted by sushi
Again, I fail to see your point.

Such has been your pattern.

Originally posted by sushi
Yes, the FP iMac display can rotate. If that is real important to you, then fine.

But as for vertical adjustments, the TAM and Cinema Displays can do that quite effectively.

It's not only a matter of rotation. It's a matter of adjusting both the angle and the position of the screen. Have you played with one of the new iMacs? You can move the screen up and down as well as tilt it for a lot more versatility than the TAM or Cinema Display designs allow.

Originally posted by sushi
Not even close!!!

Are you even looking at the URLs that I post before replying?

All I'm saying is "LCD and keyboard connected by a hinge" is not some brilliant, innovative design.

[sushi]

Originally posted by iDave
I disagree. I find the Cinema Displays to be completely non-adjustable. I always kept mine in its most vertical position which for my preference wasn't vertical enough. Who would want to tilt it back? That IS the only adjustment.

I suppose if you're a very tall person or sit in a very high chair, you might want to tilt it back.

I do understand and agree with your point.

In my case, I have my display lower than my head. So tilting back is nice.

And with my TAM it is taller than my head, so I tilt if forward a little.

So I completely understand where you are coming from. BTW, with the Sony concept, you can do both.

And for the record, I do like the FP iMac concept. It is nice to have a floating display. But depending on your work environment, other solutions can be just as effective. That is all that I am saying. And that an all in one design would be nice.

Sushi

[sushi]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Can you get vertical CD/DVD drives that are as fast as the horizontal ones?
Please see the URL.

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Have you played with one of the new iMacs?
Yes I have.

And I am well aware of the display adjustments available. A member of my family has one.

Let me ask you this. How often do you adjust your monitor on a day to day basis?

Most folks that I know, set it, then leave it alone.


Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
All I'm saying is "LCD and keyboard connected by a hinge" is not some brilliant, innovative design.
Check out the URL. The LCD and keyboard connected by a hinge is not what I was talking about.

BTW, just for starters, the Sony has a built in TV tuner and some other nice home entertainment center features.

Sushi

[iMeowbot]

Originally posted by x86isslow
i havent used a lcd imac, how can they make it better? (to those who do have experience with them)
the current crop of imacs look fabulous.

Successes with the iLamp: the adjustable 17" display has made my neck and back happier than they've been in years, the size is just right, it usually runs very quiet, and build quality and reliability (at least on the specimen I live with) is excellent.

Failures: the DVD slot is too low, interfering with the keyboard unless you put the base on something like a UFO. The screen also interferes if in its lowest position. All the ports and power switch are inconveniently located (again, UFO fixes this, but...). Internal HD is one of the Deskstars with the bizarre every-ten-minutes cooing gurgle sound. It's way too cumbersome to get inside the case to to handle what should be simple tasks, like replacing an internal HD.

Wish list: Go one step more on the display and make it act like a Radius. Recycle that wonderful arm design for the Studio Displays. Return to making proper keyboards.

[iDave]

Originally posted by sushi
And for the record, I do like the FP iMac concept. It is nice to have a floating display. But depending on your work environment, other solutions can be just as effective. That is all that I am saying. And that an all in one design would be nice.

I kind of liked the original Apple flat panel display. I never had one and don't remember what it was called (Studio?) but it had a piston like device for raising and lowering and would tilt and swivel too (much like the iMac). I was a bit baffled when they abandoned that for the current display design.

Again, I think the fully adjustable display is the best feature of the iMac. The volleyball base does nothing for me. That could be redesigned in lots of ways that wouldn't affect the functionality of the display.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by sushi
Yes I have.

And I am well aware of the display adjustments available. A member of my family has one.

Let me ask you this. How often do you adjust your monitor on a day to day basis?

Most folks that I know, set it, then leave it alone.

Which is a perfectly good reason to limit your options in setting it in the first place?

Originally posted by sushi
Check out the URL. The LCD and keyboard connected by a hinge is not what I was talking about.

Then why did you attach that pic?

Originally posted by sushi
BTW, just for starters, the Sony has a built in TV tuner and some other nice home entertainment center features.

And this relates to how we mount the LCD screen how?

By the way, I can't read Japanese.

[sushi]

Originally posted by iMeowbot
Wish list: Go one step more on the display and make it act like a Radius.
Cool. Neat idea.

This would be very valuable for those dealing with documents.

Sushi

[sushi]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Then why did you attach that pic?
Because I expected you to go to the URL! :)

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
And this relates to how we mount the LCD screen how?
My point is the all in one design.

If you will go back through the messages, I was commenting on this concept. See picture below.

With this concept, there is plenty of real estate for the motherboard, drives, TV tuners, etc.

So going full circle, while I like the current FP iMac, I would like to see an all in one design including speakers, TV tuner, etc. By using a Cinema Display form factor, I think that it is possible to do this.

Sushi

[iDave]

Originally posted by iMeowbot
Go one step more on the display and make it act like a Radius.
I would love that for web browsing. There would be lots of advantages to being able to rotate the display to vertical.

It's a great idea. I once heard Apple couldn't do it due to limitations of video cards but I'm not sure I believe that.

[rotorblade]

Are you sure Ive designed the 20th Anniversary Macintosh? His work since 1997 has been remarkably different...

As sure as the video I have in which Ive talks about the TAM in the same manner he talks about designing more recent products.

Can that really be Ive? He has hair! TAM S/N 1 in the background?

Anyway. Great video!

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by sushi
Because I expected you to go to the URL! :)

I don't know Japanese, you insensitive clod! :)

Originally posted by sushi
My point is the all in one design.

Same "all-in-one design" as the PowerBook I'm using...

The current iMac is an all-in-one design as well, technically. It is all connected. I don't see why you want to consolidate it into a denser unit, however. The neck gives it a sturdy handle, as well as maximum adjustability for the screen. Yes, it could be locked into place, but that's a good design change that we can expect from Apple.

Originally posted by sushi
If you will go back through the messages, I was commenting on this concept. See picture below.

I've been commenting on it too.

Originally posted by sushi
With this concept, there is plenty of real estate for the motherboard, drives, TV tuners, etc.

The current design does at well. The design of the base can be modified almost without limit without functional change. It can be turned into a thin slab, a flatter dome, or just about any design you want. That leaves plenty of real estate for the motherboard, drives, TV tuners, etc., while allowing faster and cheaper horizontal drives and more options. And it doesn't turn the screen into a 40 pound brick.

Originally posted by sushi
So going full circle, while I like the current FP iMac, I would like to see an all in one design including speakers, TV tuner, etc. By using a Cinema Display form factor, I think that it is possible to do this.

While sacrificing versatile monitor placement, increasing cost, and making it ugly as hell, sure.

The density required of a desktop machine with the features you cite will necessitate a great deal of both volume and weight. You can't just bolt that onto the back of a Cinema Display and call it a day. First off, most of that wants to be horizontal. Unless you want to put the ports on the side, bottom, or top, that will take an engineering workaround.

The current iMac dome has a diameter of 10.6 inches. Let's round this off to 10 inches. According to Euclid, the volume of a sphere is 4/3 pi times the radius cubed. For a 10 inch sphere, that would be 4189 cubic inches, but the iMac dome is half a sphere, so we end up with 2094 cubic inches.

On a 17" Studio Display, the height and width is fixed at 17.3 and 17.6 inches, respectively. This means that to fit the current innards of the iMac to the back of the existing 17" Studio Display, we would need to add 6.9 inches of thickness.

The obvious question is, "How can they get PowerBooks so thin?". Well, you could do the same thing to the iMac, but then you'd basically have a tablet, only it's fixed in place, doesn't have a battery, lacks a touch screen, and costs the same as a PowerBook. Oh, and forget getting a G5 in there before you can get one in a PowerBook.

[sushi]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
I don't see why you want to consolidate it into a denser unit, however.
Lot's of reasons. Here are a few:
- Easy to transport
- Sturdier/More durable
- Integrated speakers with fewer wires
- Can store in a smaller area.

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
The neck gives it a sturdy handle
Yes, I would agree for moving from desk to desk/short distances. But not in a transportable mode. The current FP iMac is terrible in that regard -- it is way too fragile.

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
The design of the base can be modified almost without limit without functional change.
I agree.

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
And it doesn't turn the screen into a 40 pound brick.
What's the difference between a FP iMac concept and the all in one with a Cinema Display when it comes to overall weight?

I see no difference between the two if they both weigh the same.

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
First off, most of that wants to be horizontal. Unless you want to put the ports on the side, bottom, or top, that will take an engineering workaround.
Please look at the pictures of the URLs that I posted. There are alternatives...today...that are selling very well.

Most electronics devices today are not affected by orientation like before.

Movement while in operation may be an issue, but orientation is not an issue like it used to be.

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac On a 17" Studio Display, the height and width is fixed at 17.3 and 17.6 inches, respectively. This means that to fit the current innards of the iMac to the back of the existing 17" Studio Display, we would need to add 6.9 inches of thickness.
I see nothing wrong with an all in one computer that is 6-10 inches deep.

Neither do many other folks who are buying the Sony, Hitachi, Gateway, and other company products of a similar nature.

Besides, if it is that deep, then you can mount the optical and magnetic HDs in a horizonal mode as well. :)

And just because it looks like a Cinema Display, does not mean that it can't have more movement of the display. Remember how unique the TAM was in its day? And with components getting smaller and lighter everyday, who knows what will be available.

Sushi

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by sushi
Lot's of reasons. Here are a few:
- Easy to transport
- Sturdier/More durable
- Integrated speakers with fewer wires
- Can store in a smaller area.

Integrated speakers are going to be an issue too. The iMac speakers are pretty big orbs, after all.

Originally posted by sushi
Yes, I would agree for moving from desk to desk/short distances. But not in a transportable mode. The current FP iMac is terrible in that regard -- it is way too fragile.

The neck is stronger than you think. The screen isn't, but if you don't have foam or something protecting the screen while you're transporting the iMac, you're an idiot. Either with your design or Ive's.

Originally posted by sushi
What's the difference between a FP iMac concept and the all in one with a Cinema Display when it comes to overall weight?

It's not a matter of overall weight. It's a matter of having a heavy slab bolted to the back of a flat panel monitor.

Originally posted by sushi
Please look at the pictures of the URLs that I posted.

I CAN'T READ JAPANESE!!!!!

Originally posted by sushi
Most electronics devices today are not affected by orientation like before.

There's no variation in price-performance based on orientation?

Originally posted by sushi
I see nothing wrong with an all in one computer that is 6-10 inches deep.

Neither do many other folks who are buying the Sony, Hitachi, Gateway, and other company products of a similar nature.

If you want Apple to be another Sony, Hitachi, or Gateway, that's your problem. Apple's job is to be better, and right now, an improved base-screen design is better.

Originally posted by sushi
Besides, if it is that deep, then you can mount the optical and magnetic HDs in a horizonal mode as well. :)

Oh, a side-loading optical drive. Brilliant. You have to reach around behind and to the side of your iMac to put a CD in the drive. And if you don't have clearance on the side of the iMac, it can't have a tray, resigning you to either turning the iMac to put a disc in or fumbling around until you reach the slot.

Originally posted by sushi
And just because it looks like a Cinema Display, does not mean that it can't have more movement of the display.

Explain how we'll be able to change both the position and tilt of the screen with your design. You need a base and arm for that.

It seems like most of your problems can be fixed by altering the base-screen design, and that once altered, a bolt-to-the-screen design will have no significant advantages and many disadvantages aesthetically and functionally. So, while I must congratulate you for your Photoshop work and your spirited defense of your design, it is nonetheless not better than a base-screen design.

[sushi]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
I CAN'T READ JAPANESE!!!!!
That's okay.

As I said, please look at the PICTURES! :)

If you do, you will see a base unit with an adjustable display. Also, they have vertical optical drives as well.

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
There's no variation in price-performance based on orientation?
No, usually it is the same device, just mounted differently. Use my TAM for example. It uses 2.5" HDs in a vertical mount. Last week, I mounted a new 20GB one since my old one died. No problems there.

The only issue that I know is optical drives. And these days, it seems this is becoming less of an issue. Afterall, Sony is an OEM plus they use them in their own computers in a vertical orientation.

Motherboards, power supplies, RAM, video cards, etc. don't care about orientation.

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
If you want Apple to be another Sony, Hitachi, or Gateway, that's your problem. Apple's job is to be better, and right now, an improved base-screen design is better.
I want Apple to increase market share.

To do this, they need designs that folks want to spend their hard earned $ on.

I don't want Apple to be another Sony, Hitachi or Gateway. However, there are different solutions/variations besides a base-screen design like the current FP iMac. I was just trying to give some examples to open up your mind to possibilities.

The original iMac was a run away best seller. When Apple was going to introduce its replacement, how many outside of Apple would have guessed at the design that they came up with? Not many I would venture.

Now Apple is poised to do it again. Create a new brilliant design of which who knows what it might look like.

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Oh, a side-loading optical drive. Brilliant. You have to reach around behind and to the side of your iMac to put a CD in the drive.
Actually, this solution is easy to use and works well.

Also, by my comment about having space, they could then have a horizontal optical drive that opens to the front as well.

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Explain how we'll be able to change both the position and tilt of the screen with your design. You need a base and arm for that.
I am sure that there are other solutions out there such as a gimbal design.

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
So, while I must congratulate you for your Photoshop work
Thanks, but not mine.

It's from pjtro2.

I like what voicegy suggested:

Originally posted by voicegy
*High-end "25th Anniversary Mac"/Special Edition version, possibly with larger (19-20 inches) widescreen.

That was from MacOSRumors...and it's something I've been speculating about (and hoping for!) all year long.
One thing for sure, it will be fun to see what Apple has up their sleaves! :D

Sushi

[tom.96]

I want a bondi blue one! I think that colours should make a comeback!

Also, totally agree with some of the other posters regarding the graphics abilities. With forthcoming games such as tomb raider angel of darkness needing a 1.2ghz G4 as minimum (see the inside mac games site), we need a big processor boost and especially a graphics overhaul.

I'd love to see a 1.6 and 1.8 ghz imac, with a 128mb graphics chip in the top level one, maybe even a gamers special edition imac.

[sushi]

Originally posted by tom.96
I want a bondi blue one! I think that colours should make a comeback!
Totally agree for consumer models.

I still have and use my Bondi Blue iMac. Love it!

On a humorous note, here are some rejected iMac designs:

http://www.dailyprobe.com/arcs/012102/imac.shtml

Sushi

[iMeowbot]

Originally posted by iDave
I would love that for web browsing. There would be lots of advantages to being able to rotate the display to vertical.

It's a great idea. I once heard Apple couldn't do it due to limitations of video cards but I'm not sure I believe that.

It cqan be done with both Nvidia and ATI hardware on peecees, so the limitations would have to be elsewhere. It would certainly complicate the arm design and add weight if they wanted to maintain the same strength, and that would be the simplest explanation for omitting the feature.

[whooleytoo]

Yes, the FP iMac display can rotate. If that is real important to you, then fine.

But as for vertical adjustments, the TAM and Cinema Displays can do that quite effectively.

Not just rotating.. having an LCD that's adjustable both in height and angle is a virtual necessity, given the narrower ideal viewing angle of LCD screens.

It's far better to have a monitor that can adjust to your sitting position, than having to adjust your sitting position to view the monitor's image at it's best. I should think that would be important for anyone who wants to avoid neck and back cramps after extended use.

[whooleytoo]

Originally posted by iDave
I disagree. I find the Cinema Displays to be completely non-adjustable. I always kept mine in its most vertical position which for my preference wasn't vertical enough. Who would want to tilt it back? That IS the only adjustment.

I suppose if you're a very tall person or sit in a very high chair, you might want to tilt it back.

That's the key point isn't it, different people want different things from a computer/monitor/mouse etc., so the key is flexibility. Which is why I love the FP iMac so much, the user can adjust it the way THEY want. (erm... except I wish I could tilt mine back more!! :) )

[Dont Hurt Me]

being flexible is right and currently the only thing flexible is the neck ,they need flexibility with graphics card, a pci slot or two, & purchase with/without monitor. Now we have a flexible imac. One more thing get away from sterility & bring back shapes & colors. Anyways Quanta will be building the thing in a new factory in China. anyone say QA?

[whooleytoo]

Jeez.. you lot are sooo lacking in imagination.

What's the best feature of the iMac? The adjustable arm.
And what's better than an adjustable arm? Loads of 'em!! :)

One to hold the monitor, another to hold the optical drive. One for the keyboard, another for the mouse (so using your new iMac will be a bit like dancing a waltz!) Oh, and one for the coffee cup holder.

And if you need to move it about, no problem! It's got adjustable legs too! (Anyone any good with Photoshop?)

You heard it here first! :D

[whooleytoo]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
being flexible is right and currently the only thing flexible is the neck ,they need flexibility with graphics card, a pci slot or two, & purchase with/without monitor. Now we have a flexible imac. One more thing get away from sterility & bring back shapes & colors. Anyways Quanta will be building the thing in a new factory in China. anyone say QA?

I'd happily settle for just an upgradable graphics card (though one extra PCI would be nice). As 'low end machines' the iMacs are shipped with a low to medium end graphics card that mean's they become obsolete for gaming very quickly.

By the way, since Quanta already make the PowerBooks in Taiwan, why would making the iMacs in China be any worse?
Cheaper labour doesn't necessarily mean poorer workmanship.

[1macker1]

This is up at at macosrumors.com on the main page.

http://www.macosrumors.com/

[Dont Hurt Me]

thanks 1macker1, this would free the emac to go faster with g4's, i think all the debate of monitor will soon go mute because monitors are becoming so large. heck give me a 20" wide screen sitting on my desk and i wont need a arm holding it ill need a couch so i can lay down and watch movies & surf & game, oh yeah work to.;)

[asphalt-proof]

Most folks that I know, set it, then leave it alone.

For me I am constanlty adjusting the monitor of my iMac. I find that my body moves ever so slightly while sitting and necessitates a monitor adjustment. That is one reason I love working on my iMac rather than on my laptop where I have to adjust myself to the keyboard, screen etc. Makes more sence to just move the monitor.

Someone attached a photo of the Sony W. I liked the idea so looked at one at Compusa. Not impressed. I want to be able to use my keyboard w/out being on top of my screen.

The idea of an all-in-one LCD with the CPU from behind... its been done before by Gateway. The screen has limited mobility up and down. Not a good design in my opinion. And its not upgradeable. (of course niether is the iMac.) You don't see those things flying off the sales floor do you?

I doubt that they would make the iMac more upgradeable because that cuts into future sales. Why buy a whole new computer when you can just upgrade the CPU and graphics card and get the same effect for whole lot cheaper? Make the iMac cheaper ($500-600) than you have a great computer for a year or two, chuck it and get a new one. Can they produce it for cheaper? Maybe. At that price point? no way.

I am excited to think of the new iMac. I'm sure that I will be blown away but I doubt that it will mirror something like the Sony W or Gateway Profile. Nor do I think it will go with a removeable "head" that would be insanely expensive and not fit the cost of a consumer model.

By the way, you are obviously a Slashdot reader Phil of Mac. Loved the inside joke.







:D

[meta-ghost]

Originally posted by Exponent
OK, while I like my stuff to be made in the U.S., I am cool with things being made in Taiwan, as they are a free country with good civil rights. They've held the line for freedom in the face of mainland China across the straits threatening them both with words and an ever-growing missile battery aimed at them.

But according to this article, which I hope isn't true, Quanta is shifting production over to Shanghai on the mainland. Crap.

For those that don't know why I'm throwing a conniption fit over this, China continues to have a horrible, horrible human rights record, and nobody seems to care about it, provided they make cheap stuff.

Are you a religious person? You better belong to the "Official" version of your church, or you may be prosecuted and your church leaders thrown in jail. The real Catholic Cardinal for China died in jail last year, because he wouldn't recognize the supremacy of the "Official Chinese" Catholic church.

Are you someone who'd like more than one kid? You better hide it well or bugger out of the country, because the government might just force an abortion on you or your spouse.

Are you an engineer wanting to design a cool chip, maybe for communication? Well, now Motorola engineering offices in China have Communist party political officers stationed in them, looking over your shoulder.

Are you a factory worker? Pay attention to this quote from the AI article: "In the new manufacturing facility, labor, electricity, tax and government fees will account for only 5 percent of manufacturing costs..." Nice to know your labor rates will support a nice livable community...

One last thing: When I first started working with Chinese engineers in this country, it was right after the Tiananmen Square massacre, and they seemed to truly appreciate the freedom of the west, and how wrong the Communists were.

Now the new ones coming over are just fine with repression - they have all kinds of excuses for why it is justified. I have yet to meet a new Chinese immigrant (in the last 5 years) with an interest in defending basic human rights. And they're coming over here, to California, by the boatloads.

So, a fine place to make an iMac, eh? Crap.

EDIT: Corrected spelling and grammar mistakes

American ignorance of China (both from the Right and the Left) is sometimes just too much. This is an Apple rumors web site and people who wander away from topics like how their motherboard works sometimes end up saying ridiculous things.

As someone who has lived, worked and traveled in China for 15 years I can tell you that the starting point for any conversation about China has to be the following:
China has a burden that no other country shares - the simaltaneous existance of every stage of economic development since true village life. Side by side, nearly 1/4 of the worlds population. Agrarian, Industrial Revolution, High Tech and everything in between. It is living history.

If democracy comes, it will not be overnight.

To the uneducated, it sounds scary that a Communist official must have a high postition in every company. The reality is that these people are seen as adding nothing real to the business and in the end this helps build resentment and distance between the people who will in fact run China and the Communist.

If you haven't met a recent Chinese immigrant who will defend "basic human rights" maybe you aren't listening (or are asking the wrong questions). To reduce this to a question of a form of government is not helpful. In addition, to call China a Dictatorship is entirely inaccurate. There are many good people in the Chinese government struggling against evil.

China is big country and their is plenty of evidence that involvment with the West has brought about serious democratic changes. China is not what South Africa used to be. The divestment movement that hit US universities in the mid-80s indeed helped overthrow what was a tiny fraction of people brutalizing a majority. China is a large complex space that can't be treated with simple pronouncements.

[sketchy]

Originally posted by sushi
Not even close!!!

Are you even looking at the URLs that I post before replying?

Do you have any idea what the capabilities of the devices are?

I would suggest that you look into them before replying. You might be surprised as to what is out there.

Sushi

I saw this on tech TV and it seems like sony is trying to make the machine do too much, and the flipping keyboard is just plain silly. if it is half way up it is a tv, if it s 2/3 f the way up it is a stereo.

seems like a non functional feature that is likely to break at some point.

[machinehien]

what does "FP" mean in "FP iMac"? Other than that I could follow most of the thread.

[sketchy]

Originally posted by machinehien
what does "FP" mean in "FP iMac"? Other than that I could follow most of the thread.

flat panel:)

[iMeowbot]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
being flexible is right and currently the only thing flexible is the neck ,they need flexibility with graphics card, a pci slot or two, & purchase with/without monitor.

It appears that what you're really after is a cheaper PowerMac rather than a more expandable iMac. I understand why people want such a product (essentially greed; get more for less money) but I also understand why Apple doesn't make them (essentially greed; it would hurt the sales of more profitable models). With Apple sales and share gradually climbing, they are going to have limited incentive to offer such a thing.

Now we have a flexible imac. One more thing get away from sterility & bring back shapes & colors. Anyways Quanta will be building the thing in a new factory in China. anyone say QA?

China is a very big place. There are organizations that produce excellent products there and others that produce junk, just like anywhere else.

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by pjtro2
Err. Why? Not sure if you've seen a CRT iMac.. The orb speakers are 90% acrylic, the speaker component is very small and would pose no problem to the integration. They've done it before.

I've owned two CRT iMacs!

Originally posted by pjtro2
Before you start flaming people, I urge you to *read* what you are replying to. Last time I checked, you don't need to read Japanese to look at pictures.

Well, I looked at the pictures. However, I couldn't read Japanese, so I couldn't determine anything about optical drive speeds, which is one of the things I was sent to that site to do.

Originally posted by sushi
No, usually it is the same device, just mounted differently. Use my TAM for example. It uses 2.5" HDs in a vertical mount. Last week, I mounted a new 20GB one since my old one died. No problems there.

The only issue that I know is optical drives.

Yeah. That's the only issue I was talking about too.

Originally posted by sushi
And these days, it seems this is becoming less of an issue. Afterall, Sony is an OEM plus they use them in their own computers in a vertical orientation.

At the same speeds?

Originally posted by sushi
I want Apple to increase market share.

To do this, they need designs that folks want to spend their hard earned $ on.

The current flat-panel iMac design is a design that folks want to spend their hard earned money on. If it wasn't for Apple's catastrophic delay in shipping flat-panel iMacs shortly after they were announced, they would have been a big hit.

Originally posted by sushi
I don't want Apple to be another Sony, Hitachi or Gateway. However, there are different solutions/variations besides a base-screen design like the current FP iMac. I was just trying to give some examples to open up your mind to possibilities.

And I was just trying to show how the current base-screen design is better than an integrated solution.

[Dont Hurt Me]

It will be interesting to see where they go with a new machine, same design with slight mods or major lets get out the drawing board!

[sushi]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
At the same speeds?
As far as I can tell it has the same speeds as their horizontal model.

Then again, technology changes, so while X may be the fastest today, tomorrow it's not.

Then again, Apple doesn't use the latest and greatest either. Plus they limit folks to -R and -RW. Where as on the PC side, folks can use these plus +R and +RW.

Personally I am fine with only the -R and -RW, but the PC community sees this as a limitation -- Especially considering Apple is using the same Sony OEM drive! I hear the same comment all of the time, why is Apple limiting the features?

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
The current flat-panel iMac design is a design that folks want to spend their hard earned money on.
IMHO, they are too expensive for the average consumer.

The eMate has shown us that. The eMate iis a popular model and continues to be. Apple is responding to customer demand by continuing to improve it while decreasing the cost.

Also, while this may seem minor, many folks don't like lot's of wires/cables hanging off their computer and prefer an all in one concept like the CRT iMac or eMate.

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
And I was just trying to show how the current base-screen design is better than an integrated solution.
The FP iMac is a beautiful design. However, it is too expensive for the average consumer. Apple has seen this which is why the eMate continues to be updated and reduced in price. The FP iMac is a problem for Apple marketing. It's not a consumer level computer, neither is it a pro model. It's sort of in the middle. It's a good computer that expensive, non-expandable and non-transportable. Unfortunately, there is not a huge market for a computer like this.

Sushi

[sushi]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
It will be interesting to see where they go with a new machine, same design with slight mods or major lets get out the drawing board!
My guess, they will go back to the drawing board and come up with something new. Whether they keep the FP and arm design and change the base only, or if they have a whole new concept remains to be seen.

Apple never seems to disappoint. It will be fun to see what they come up with.

Sushi

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by sushi
Then again, Apple doesn't use the latest and greatest either. Plus they limit folks to -R and -RW. Where as on the PC side, folks can use these plus +R and +RW.

Personally I am fine with only the -R and -RW, but the PC community sees this as a limitation -- Especially considering Apple is using the same Sony OEM drive! I hear the same comment all of the time, why is Apple limiting the features?

Obviously you missed the thread about this.

Originally posted by sushi
IMHO, they are too expensive for the average consumer.

At original release, not at all. There wasn't a matching PC at the same price. A G5 iMac would be at the same level.

Originally posted by sushi
The eMate has shown us that. The eMate iis a popular model and continues to be. Apple is responding to customer demand by continuing to improve it while decreasing the cost.

The eMate was cancelled in 1997. I think you're talking about the eMac.

Originally posted by sushi
Also, while this may seem minor, many folks don't like lot's of wires/cables hanging off their computer and prefer an all in one concept like the CRT iMac or eMate.

The flat panel iMac is an all-in-one design that has the same number of cables as the CRT iMac.

Originally posted by sushi
It's a good computer that expensive, non-expandable and non-transportable. Unfortunately, there is not a huge market for a computer like this.

Instead of telling you to get a clue, I'll gie you the clue myself.

In nine years as a Mac power user, I have never purchased an expansion card, despite the opportunity to do so twice, first with my Power Mac 6100, and again with my current PowerBook G4. However, such things as RAM are certainly expandable in the iMac.

The iMac is not particularly expensive either. The 15" model is $1299, same price as the original iMac, and a good price. I agree that the price can come down, but it is not a large problem.

The flat panel iMac is fully transportable as long as you protect the screen. The same is true of any computer, except a notebook, which protects the screen when closed by design.

[sushi]

Originally posted by sketchy
I saw this on tech TV and it seems like sony is trying to make the machine do too much, and the flipping keyboard is just plain silly. if it is half way up it is a tv, if it s 2/3 f the way up it is a stereo.

seems like a non functional feature that is likely to break at some point.
I understand what you are saying. What may be hard to see in the pictures, is that there are buttons on the back of the keyboard. So when the keyboard is in a certain position, keys are available for that function.

In the FWIW department, Sony seems to be selling many of this type of model -- to both Japanese and American folks.

Go figure.

I am sure that some of the popularlty stems from that fact that homes/apartments are small over here so space is at a premium. The less devices that you need, the more space you save. These models allow for the consumer to have one device for their computer, stereo and TV. Convenient.

Sushi

[SeaFox]

Originally posted by iMeowbot
It appears that what you're really after is a cheaper PowerMac rather than a more expandable iMac. I understand why people want such a product (essentially greed; get more for less money)

No, you've been mistaken into thinking the ability to expand a computer is what makes it a "professional" product. Over the years Apple has created "consumer" targeted machines that have been expandible by a limited means. When the PowerMacs first came out, none of them had integrated monitors, and they all had the ability to add at least one expansion card.

The only thing greedy about asking for a headless iMac is it would save the consumer who already has a monitor from having to pay $250+ for the flat panel integrated in the iMac. There are some people who prefer CRT monitors, ya know.


but I also understand why Apple doesn't make them (essentially greed; it would hurt the sales of more profitable models). With Apple sales and share gradually climbing, they are going to have limited incentive to offer such a thing.


Except all the PC users on the fence about switching, who see the only model price competitive with their hardware being a bottom-of-the-barrel eMac.

[sushi]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Obviously you missed the thread about this.
Guilty as charged. :)

Are you saying that out of the box, the iMacs and PowerMacs with the Sony DVD RW drives can burn + media?

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
The eMate was cancelled in 1997. I think you're talking about the eMac.
See what happens when you are on two message lists at once. :eek:

Yes, I was talking about the eMac, not the eMate.

Although, the eMate is nice as well. :D


Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
The flat panel iMac is an all-in-one design that has the same number of cables as the CRT iMac.

Uh, don't forget the speaker wires.

With the iMac and eMac (see I got it right this time) you have fairly decent built in speakers. Not the best, but decent.

With the FP iMac, you must add speakers to have decent sound. Hense more wires. Not a lot, but enough for some to not like the design. BTW, this is a comment that I've heard frequently -- both from Japanese and American friends.

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Instead of telling you to get a clue, I'll gie you the clue myself.

Rather than totally embarrasing you with your own comments, I will just say this:

Before you hit the SUBMIT button next time, take a deep breath and relax. Take a break, then re-read your reply before submitting.

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
The flat panel iMac is fully transportable as long as you protect the screen.

With the TAM, iMac, and eMac, I can put them face down on the seat of my car and off I go. Not with the FP iMac. You have to support the system so it won't get damaged.

Again, no problem with moving the FP iMac from desk to desk.

The original Mac was made to be transportable. The iMac followed. The FP iMac does not.

Sushi

[sushi]

Originally posted by SeaFox

Except all the PC users on the fence about switching, who see the only model price competitive with their hardware being a bottom-of-the-barrel eMac.
Yep, you got that right.

And right now, the FP iMac is way too expensive compared to the typical PC offerings.

While I realize that the FP iMac is a great buy, stats wise, it doesn't look very tempting to my PC using friends. They see it as very expensive and non-expandable, and therefore, not worth their hard earned dollars.

Sushi

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by sushi
Guilty as charged. :)

Are you saying that out of the box, the iMacs and PowerMacs with the Sony DVD RW drives can burn + media?

An OS update to that effect is rumored.

Originally posted by sushi
With the TAM, iMac, and eMac, I can put them face down on the seat of my car and off I go. Not with the FP iMac. You have to support the system so it won't get damaged.

Again, no problem with moving the FP iMac from desk to desk.

The original Mac was made to be transportable. The iMac followed. The FP iMac does not.

I would submit that this type of feature is not a big deal. One does not customarily transport his computer back and forth very often, and if one does, one should really get a laptop. I will agree that there is an advantage there, however.

[iMeowbot]

I read these scare stories about not being able to take the monitor or video card along when switching platforms and just have to laugh. That expansion and upgrade stuff is, for the most part, marketing fiction, and only a small subset of people ever even try take advantage of it or care that it exists.

[Don't forget that if you are reading and posting to something like this board, you are a member of an extraordinarily small and hopelessly geeky subset of the people who use computers. Most people don't want to know what's going on inside that box and will never open the cover unless forced to do so.]

Think back over the past couple of decades of Wintel machines. Replacing a PC with an AT meant getting a new display to go with the EGA card. Then another monitor when the next computer used VGA. Then yet another when the following had a GUI and needed higher SVGA resolution to fit a useful amount of information on the screen. And yep, the PC manufacturers are at it again, migrating over to DVI.

Expansion cards went to disuse when ISA gave way to PCI, then to integrated everything (the less said about Microchannel, the better).

An unspeakable number of disk and CD interfaces came and went too. About the only old peripherals that really managed to work over the long haul were floppy drives, and not even all of those.

Point being, the market for these hypothetical cheap headless Macs that support random PC peripherals isn't going to be all that large. The parts don't even age very well on their native turf!

And of course, the general explosion in laptop sales (many of which are being bought for desktop use) shows that expandability isn't really something buyers are demanding in large numbers.

[Coca-Cola]

iMeowbot, that is an excellent point. Very good indeed. That really gives me something to think about.

[sushi]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
An OS update to that effect is rumored.
Fair enough. Thanks.

Unfortunately as you know, there is a big difference between a rumor and fact.

I will be glad to see this rumor become fact since the typical PC user sees the lack of + media support a limitation.

Sushi

[Rod Rod]

Originally posted by sushi
Fair enough. Thanks.

Unfortunately as you know, there is a big difference between a rumor and fact.

I will be glad to see this rumor become fact since the typical PC user sees the lack of + media support a limitation.

Sushi

people are saying Toast 6 burns +R/+RW media on G5s with the pioneer-made superdrive (the 106).

[sushi]

Originally posted by Rod Rod
people are saying Toast 6 burns +R/+RW media on G5s with the pioneer-made superdrive (the 106).
Cool! This is good news.

Reference/URL please.

Thanks!

Sushi

[Dont Hurt Me]

imeowbot misses the point about expansion,almost all pc's are expandable is the imac?? the answer is no. take me for example- i never thought i needed pci slots. if my last purchase was a imac i would have been screwed,turns out a lightning strike knocked out the eithernet so what did i do? i bought a pci ethernet card and presto into the pci slot and iam back in business, they just announced a new tv card that goes into the pci slot so now my mac can be my tv without another box on the desk, ati has the new 9800 for all those gamers but what does that do for a imac user? nothing. and the monitor is pretty but if you have one allready? Imac has squeezed itself into a exclusive top dollar machine that is well lacking. for almost 2 grand? Apple better look at what consumers want not what apple wants. slow sales have proven this now its up to apple to give the consumer what they are asking for.

[iMeowbot]

Funny that Ethernet and video upgrades/replacements would come up as reasons to go with a PC, because those happen to be exactly the kinds of things that made me replace a late model PC with an iMac. I had a really nice Vaio minitower with one of the better Asus motherboards inside, and ended up dragging it off to my Mom's house in less than a year because it couldn't do what I needed it to do. It was one of the more expensive Sony so-called multimedia jobbies, marketed for its video/DVD software bundle -- and in fact, decent software it was. [Some might be familiar with the Vaio line and be aware that Sony likes to put weird proprietary things in them. This wasn't such a beast; every component in the system could be bought off the shelf, and it was all the good stuff; none of that generic OEM junk.]

I actually gave up on Apple hardware back in 1997 or so, when their hardware quality had hit bottom (2 suicidal PowerBooks in a row), OS 8 still crashed at will and Rhapsody was obviously not going to be a real product for a long time. Returning to the platform would never have happened, except that expanding the latest PC was an exercise in endless futility. The hardware was certainly out there, it just didn't work.

Video and TV capture/replay: I'm using one of "larger" 1394 units (Formac's) for that, but there are much smaller/cheaper versions out there too, even some for USB. It's great to be able to run a single Firewire cable over to the video shelf and have all the connections sitting right next to the TV and VCR, rather than having to run noisy long analog cables to the back of the PC and having to reach behind a huge PC tower to plug and unplug things.

Unlike the ATI TV receiver in the old Windows box that took 2 days of driver and Windows tweaks to get working correctly (well sort of; Windows would randomly lose track of it 2 or 3 times a day and require a power cycle to get the picture back), the iMac's Formac adapter worked the first try, and with a clearer picture. Oh, and that ATI capture card couldn't do video out like the Formac; I had to abandon a perfectly good Nvidia-based AGP card and get a replacement that could do NTSC out. Of course, the new card didn't work correctly at all unless I turned off all acceleration, because none of the many ATI driver updates over an eight month period were able to correctly draw dialog boxes or Java applets under Windows XP.

Ethernet replacements/additions: There are tons of dongle solutions on the market. They work pretty well too; it's a nice cheap way to use the iMac as a secondary router to get the old MicroVAX onto the DSL connection. Glad it works too, because snaking a second CAT5 cable around the edges of the apartment would have been just nasty. Wireless wasn't an option, too much interference to maintain a good signal with so many government buildings in the area. XP got seriously confused about addresses with two network interfaces attached; the iMac just works.

On upgrading video cards to use the newest games: yeah, the case mod and overclocking crowd will buy a new card every few weeks, but these aren't normal consumers. But again, PC hardware simply doesn't age very well. Putting the latest ATI or Nvidia AGP card isn't going to make a 7-year-old Pentium 200 fast enough to play the latest games at 6 gaziilion FPS; in fact it won't even plug in because AGP is a recent change. (Oh yeah, and earlier I forgot about the EISA and VESA cards that also wouldn't work on the next PC generation.)

So yeah, my iMac is plenty expandable. And unlike the experience with the Wintel platform, the expansions actually work.

[Dont Hurt Me]

So great if you want those expansions next to the clean looking imac you have to have wires and boxes all around it? stuff everywhere with wires everywhere? who wants that? my point is apple has to build a box that fits everyone consumer wise not just a very tiny market segment that is buying less and less imacs. performance,utility,&style will sell the next generation imacs. style alone wont do it.

[Coca-Cola]

An interesting rebuttal from "Don't Hurt Me". I am a little tired of my exapsion units cluttering up my desk. Formac cd-rw, smartdisk 80GB drive, and Zip drive. I would love to be able to throw it inside the machine. Not the zip drive though, they suck. But on the other hand I feel that a new iMac would have served me better than all of this upgrading. I can't get rid of my iMac though. I have become emotionally attatched. I have even considered putting a G4 on the motherboard. Extreme! So, I am not your average user. Hmmm. The current iMac as of now, is a perfect machine. I think we are really talking about how important future upgradability and expansion are. I just don't know. I think the cube needs to come back perhaps. Look at how much love it is getting. A thousand dollar price tag and some wicked upgrades. Hmmm.
So....

[Coca-Cola]

The cube is the answer. We all wanted one. We just couldn't afford the damn monitorless thing. CUBE! CUBE! CUBE! CUBE!:p

[Dont Hurt Me]

Cube was the cool no doubt about it.

[iMeowbot]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
So great if you want those expansions next to the clean looking imac you have to have wires and boxes all around it?

Huh? It looks fine, all the cables are routed out the back and the boxes are in a neat little row on a shelf. And there's more flexibility and convenience too; I'm able to lend the Formac DV adapter out to friends (even ones with PCs!) so they can DVDify their old tapes; no _way_ would I consider doing that with a PCI card.

stuff everywhere with wires everywhere? who wants that?/

I suppose that all the PC users with scanners, printers, flash media dongles, cameras, DSL/cable interfaces and PDAs want them.

Funny thing is, I didn't buy an iMac because of its looks. It was about having a whole computer system that took up less desk space (and weighed less) than my last CRT, used no floor space, and had a display that would go where my body wanted it to go.

my point is apple has to build a box that fits everyone consumer wise not just a very tiny market segment that is buying less and less imacs. performance,utility,&style will sell the next generation imacs. style alone wont do it.

Apple have spoken about this, they're seeing the iMac/eMac sales (they report them as one product line) instead going into iBooks and PowerBooks. Especially looking at the latter two, why would consumers be buying smaller machines at the same price point, with fewer ports and truly horrendous cable management, if they were really looking for an ATX-ish form factor?

It's the window dressing. iMacs don't _look_ like computers, people think there's something missing. I've had the same conversation way too many times: "That looks neat, where did you hide the computer?" "Oh, it's the round thingy there on the desk." "No, I mean the computer, where do you hide it?" "Really, it's all right in there." "Yeah, right." It _looks_ too delicate and artsy-fartsy for its own good; the functional part of the design is fine.

[wrylachlan]

The reason upgradeability is more important in the PC world is that PC's loose their value much faster than Macs. For upgrading to be cost effective, it has to be cheaper to add in a card than it is to sell the whole box and buy a new one.

If you look on eBay there is a 700Mhz G4 iMac going starting at 750 which will probably go for 8. If he uses that money to buy a new iMac, he'll have paid $500 for a new processor, more memory, a better graphics card, USB2, a larger harddrive, an OS upgrade... And if he waits just a couple of months, that may be a G5 with even better price to performance ratio.

Would internal upgradeability be that much cheaper? And what about when you add the design cost of creating the upgradeable design?

I think the economics of the mac make it much more cost effective, and gratifying to just eBay your old mac every 2 years and buy a new one.

[Phil Of Mac]

Did someone say "TV tuner"?

USB TV Tuner (http://www.clubmac.com/clubmac/shop/detail.asp?dpno=780172)

Also: If a lightning strike takes out your Ethernet and only your Ethernet, you are the the victim, or perhaps the lucky recipient, of a very low order of probability. All I know is that if a lightning strike took out my Ethernet, AppleCare could take care of it.

[iDave]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
Did someone say "TV tuner"?

USB TV Tuner (http://www.clubmac.com/clubmac/shop/detail.asp?dpno=780172)
Gotta love the specs on that product page:
OS type: Microsoft MS-DOS

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by iDave
Gotta love the specs on that product page:
OS type: Microsoft MS-DOS

ClubMac's database is apparently funky, but rest assured that several other times on that page, it assures you that it runs on Mac.

[Dont Hurt Me]

hey phil that eskape labs usb tv tuner for lack of a better term sucks, anyways look for a new imac because sales suck not at all like the original imac crt and ask yourself why they suck?? im sure apple has asked themselves this and have a solution coming our way.

[Rod Rod]

Originally posted by sushi
Cool! This is good news.

Reference/URL please.

Thanks!

Sushi

http://www.insanelygreatmac.com/news.php?id=2619

people are also saying Dragon Burn enables +R/+RW burning.

I'm guessing you can grab that app by searching www.versiontracker.com

[darndog]

Apple, Quanta, 15" Wireless Display, Consumer product, Volume shipment in Q1 2004 :D

report from The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/30239.html) dD

[Dont Hurt Me]

maybe the new Performa!

[Spock]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
maybe the new Performa!

The Performa Line almost took another bite out of Apple
Apple focused on the Performa line and forgot about the
Powermac and Powerbook. I almost went to Windows
Big word ALMOST

[iDave]

Originally posted by Spock
The Performa Line almost took another bite out of Apple
Apple focused on the Performa line and forgot about the
Powermac and Powerbook.
There was nothing wrong with the Performa line, I bought a couple of them. Problem was, it was Apple's consumer line and it just didn't take off like the iMac did later.

Some people thought because they were called Performas, they weren't really Macs, or were somehow crippled Macs. It was unfortunate because they represented pretty good value.

Sometimes, it's all in a name. I believe the iMac became successful in large part because of its name.

[sketchy]

Originally posted by sushi
Fair enough. Thanks.

Unfortunately as you know, there is a big difference between a rumor and fact.

I will be glad to see this rumor become fact since the typical PC user sees the lack of + media support a limitation.

Sushi

I would say that the **typical** PC user does not know what + media is. Sure -- all the IT folks and computer enthusiasts do, but the switcher campaign is mainly aimed at home users.

-- The kind who call their kids to install a printer.

My family has gotten a bunch of their friends to switch based onthe FP iMac. The sit down on the sofa and my mom sits at the desk and swivels the screen over to them to look at the pictures.

Those little details are a *big* selling points. My dad is taller then my mom. They move the display every time one of them sits down. At my house I change my display based on my sitting position. If my feet are up on the desk, the screen is pointed down to meet my gaze. My CRT cannot do that.

[sketchy]

Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
ClubMac's database is apparently funky, but rest assured that several other times on that page, it assures you that it runs on Mac.
I had one -- works fine