Apple and Dealer Relations [Archive]

rainman::|:|

Nov 2, 2003, 10:39 PM

Originally posted by ITR 81
Well what Apple could do is maybe buy them out or make them offical Apple stores. I don't know why they wouldn't except for money issues. If they became part of the chain then smaller stores can stay and business and gain more Apple Corp. support.

Also how is Jobs picking sites to open Apple Stores? Are they going to put atleast 1 store in every state because I would like one here in AL. I do not going to CompUSA for Apple products. Also can someone contact Apple about opening up an offical Apple Store or is it just up to Jobs and markets? Reason I asked is because I know folks that are interested with money to spend.

Apple wants more control over their stores, they want to start from scratch rather than try and dramatically reform an existing company... i think buying most any Mac retailer would be a blunder...

and Apple apparently uses it's own formula to place stores... they're clustered in a few big cities, with a few fanned out, but many states have none... hell i was talking to a coworker friday, i think he would have bought an eMac on the spot if he could have taken his wife to an Apple store... as it was, i told him not to go to compusa, because they'd just talk him into some crappy PC he wouldn't like. i finally wound up recommending an HP, sadly. i think she'll go with gateway because she can go into their Country Store here and get a proper sales pitch...

pnw

theipodgod16

Nov 2, 2003, 10:40 PM

one of my local apple dealers closed last year after the re-negotiated contracts. That was a good store, but the only one remaining is hidious. Old parts everywhichway, and a staff that will not listen to you when you want to ask a question. My experience at the apple stores has been nothing but bliss. I think that for Apple, i would rather see the company grow through its retail stores than try and keep those independent retailers alive.

ITR 81

Nov 2, 2003, 10:55 PM

Well they could just buy some retailers out and just start from scratch then. Most folks will sell if the money is right.

I myself think Apple needs to put a Apple store in all states. Atleast one nice store damnit! To me that would help sell more Macs everywhere if atleast every state had atleast 1 Mac store. To me it seems like waste when they open up more stores in other states that already have 1 or more Apple Stores when they have none in other states. To me thats bad business to neglect other states where they have no presence except for damn CompUSA..

Jerry Spoon

Nov 2, 2003, 11:18 PM

Originally posted by ITR 81
Well they could just buy some retailers out and just start from scratch then. Most folks will sell if the money is right.

Why not just recruit good people from the retailers and let them die out on their own. Not nice, but what's the necessity of buying them out?

MDiddy

Nov 2, 2003, 11:22 PM

Apple is placing their stores in particular areas that meet a certain demigraphic, much mike any other retailer. They will put there stores where they think they can make the most money, not just to be "there" They have been very effective so far, I doubt that will go away any time soon. In the Chicago area, store #3 is opening this weekend, and a 4th store in Lincoln Park is probably a year away.

Codemonkey

Nov 2, 2003, 11:27 PM

I have no idea why anyone would ever complain about competition... </sarcasm>

Seriously folks - there are many, many reasons for a store to go out of business, and blaming Apple might only be a half-truth. I'd take any excuse a businessperson talks about "officially" with a grain of salt.

Apple's tactics are by no stretch of the imagination "smarmy" or underhanded. As mentioned earlier AAPL had to take a gamble to boost profits - and I'd add to that: if they didn't (or if thy failed), we might not be having this conversation today.

Here's an example of smarmy: Chapters book stores were allegedly opening up within the vacinity of older, smaller, supposedly established locally owned and operated book stores. These stores would then fold under the pressure that Chapters put on them. That's not the bad part... then Chapters would close down, there by ridding the competition and reducing their operating expenses -1 store.

It's "win win": a phrase I'm sure the execs were tossing around at the meeting they thought that tactic up at.

But I digress. I'm secretly awaiting the opening of an official Apple store here to show the large local retailler <cough>Westworld</cough> here a thing or two about customer service/marketing/supplier respect/pride.

Totalshock

Nov 2, 2003, 11:28 PM

Channel conflict is always such a tough issue. Apple will likely get farther with the average consumer, by doing retail itself. As for its "hardcore" following... I'm mixed. Yes, we tend to love buying "directly from Apple", but there's also something to be said about the nature of the local Apple reseller/evangelist who really knows his stuff and can create a great deal of hype around the platform, much so than anything I've seen at Apple Stores on visits there.

But the comment from the reseller are very true... unless Apple builds itself a services business (not likely....) it's going to find it hard to keep itself up in many of its typical verticals, which are smaller businesses that need more support than an Apple Store will provide, but are too small to warrant a professional services business. This isn't necessarily true of education and other big verticals like that, but smaller design houses and the like. Granted, typically Macs don't need the level of integration and IT-staff work that PCs do. But these are companies that don't have any IT staff, and many times, don't have any real computer "geeks" on staff, just people who use them very well and very effectively as tools.

Apple Stores are great for customers who want to get the latest box, be it hardware or software or both. They aren't good for a small business owner who needs solutions, not just products.

And for every Dell, which makes a killing off the direct model, there's a Packard-Bell/NEC, which was basically murdered by its disastrous "NEC Now" direct strategy.

C14ru5

Nov 2, 2003, 11:34 PM

From the ThinkSecret article
"Take for instance the current situation," said one west coast dealer. "We can't get new iBooks or PowerBooks. But the Apple Store down the road from me has them stacked five high and three deep. I can't get new 40GB iPods, but the Apple Store has them. What do you think this says about me to my customers who see me without the product they want, and they can get it for the same price down the road? Do you think they're going to wait? Do you think they're going to come back? Get serious."Word! :(

ITR 81

Nov 2, 2003, 11:46 PM

It still doesn't make since since alot of the colleges here are almost all Mac colleges.
But we only have a CompUSA and some small edu resellers that sell Macs. To me it seems like they are only going after states with the biggest of cities which is screwin the states that don't have huge cities like the LA or NY and so on.
Our local college buys all it's Macs online at the Apple Store because they don't trust CompUSA.

MacRAND

Nov 3, 2003, 12:17 AM

Independent Apple Dealers (IAD) are often more knowledgable :) about everything Mac than Apple Stores.

APPLE employees (geniuses?) are often well trained, but tech discussions are often limited by Apple Policies, preventing them from being truly frank and forthcoming.

IADs Owners and Employees are often more experienced and knowledgable than the Apple Store clerks and Geniuses, and are always more forthcoming about productsl, sources, and problems.

Night of the Panther was clearly setup as unfair advantage for the Apple Stores, while some retailers like Fry's Electronics and some Best Buy stores passed out PANTHER OS X Mouse Pads, none of the IADs got to knock 10% off everything in the store that night, nor did IADs get a supply of limited edition Panther dog tags.

APPLE is begging for an Anti-Trust lawsuit against it for unfair trade practices from the only people who are really interested in Mac sales and service, and Apple's survival. When Apple treats the IADs unfairly, it is cutting its own throat.

I use MacSales regularly and even knowingly pay regular retail (when a better price is a mouse click away) simply because they provide me with solid information and expert HELP that Apple would never do, and if Apple did, it would only do so if I paid extra for AppleCare and hounded them.

Is Apple going to tell you that your iBook or PowerBook speed sucks because you have a 20GB hard drive running at minimal 4200 rpm:

15" PB: "60GB or 80GB 4200-rpm Ultra ATA/100 hard drive; optional 80GB 5400-rpm drive"

And, will Apple tell you that an excellent solution is to replace the cheap 20GB drive with a HOT! 60GB IBM/Hitaci HD running at 7200 rpm (FireWire speed) for under $300? NO!

Apple apparently doesn't even make a 7200 rpm HD available as an Apple Store On-Line upgrade for their laptops, and if they did, it probably cost $300 or more, and Apple would keep the old drive they removed instead of giving it to you to insert into an external FW HD box.

On a 15" PB, upgrading from 60GB HD @ 4200 rpm to an 80GB HD @ 5400 is a $200 premium

Check out the following example:

http://eshop.macsales.com/Catalog_Page.cfm?Parent=91&Title=2%2E5%22%20IDE%20%26%20SCSI%20for%20Laptops&Template=

60.0GB Hitachi/IBM Travelstar 7K60 **7200RPM** 8MB Data Buffer ATA/6 9.5mm UltraSlim 2.5" NoteBook Drive. 3yr Hitachi Warranty. (HIT08K0939) more info... $289.97

While I appreciate Apple's focus on winning, shouldn't it treat IADs more fairly? :(

Many Mac customers have lost interest in Fry's Electronics, Phoenix store since management let the only knowledgable Mac salesman go because he was more focused on Customer Service than Sales Quotas (I personally droped thousands of dollars in their cash register because of John R., but I'm taking my business and money elsewhere since all the current salesmen are PC drones with no Apple experience or interest in Mac products. They cut the core out of their Apple and now they wonder why Mac product sales have slid into the toilet. Management should have paid more attention to the Apple department numbers rather than personal sales figures. Customers like me are following John, and leaving the Fry's.

Dahl

Nov 3, 2003, 12:30 AM

I would prefer if Apple only had true "statement" stores, stores with a lot of traffic and prestige. But then again, it might go against Apple's latest attempt to show the world that Mac's are for everybody, not just folks with $.
If your large town only have a CompUSA, maybe Apple should have a store there, but I would hate to see them queeze out the small guys, who have supported Apple for years.

MacRAND

Nov 3, 2003, 12:42 AM

Dahl,

This should make you mad at Apple's treatment of independent dealers:

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/specialistchanges.html

Special Report: Apple cuts Specialist reps; further dealer changes Monday

November 2 - Exclusive Apple will announce Monday that it is firing many of its dealer Representative Apple Executives across the U.S., replacing them with existing inside phone liaisons and upping Apple Specialists' requirements to achieve certain discounts on equipment by as much as 40 percent...

Dirty dealing, Apple. Shame! :mad:

xtekdiver

Nov 3, 2003, 12:48 AM

Screw em! Buy from Apple.com. Why should we care if somebody can't make a go of a business selling Apple products? There is no competition; they all sell the computers at the same price. Apple gives us a nice online store to use and they provide, for some of us, outstanding show room floor stores; why should I shop anywhere else? I don't know about where most of you are at, but here in Southern California, a lot of "so called" Apple resellers are really seedy, hole in the wall, strip mall store fronts. Not exactly a very inviting place to make a purchase. I certainly wouldn't want to take my children there. And let's not talk about the embarrasment of CompUSA or Fry's Electronics. I think Apple has done the right thing by creating their own stores which are able to show off their products the way they are meant to be seen. These stores really showcase all of Apple's products and offer a very consistent experiance to the end user. Someone walking into an Apple store will go home and have the same experiance with their brand new computer. If you can find a nich selling Apple products somewhere, more power to you; but don't go bitching about it when Apple opens a beautiful new Apple store down the street in a mall while the police are cleaning up the murder outside your store from the night before.

Seriously, Apple stores are very nice. I have no problem bringing my little two year old son into one and letting him sit on those cool round ball chairs (anyone know where I can get one?) and play with an eMac. I can't say enough about these stores. They are beautifly simple and envite people walking by to come in and look around. How many people do you think come into these stores who had no intention of buying a computer or even going to a computer store? The only reason most of these "resellers" even exist is because it was the only way to get a Mac! Apple is making a strategic decsion to create a presence and put their products in the best possible light. Joe blows computers just doesn't cut it. Thank God for Steve Jobs. Apple would be dead without him.

sethypoo

Nov 3, 2003, 01:07 AM

Originally posted by xtekdiver
Screw em! Buy from Apple.com. Why should we care if somebody can't make a go of a business selling Apple products? There is no competition; they all sell the computers at the same price. Apple gives us a nice online store to use and they provide some of us with outstanding show room floor stores; why should I shop anywhere else? I don't know about where most of you are at, but here in Southern California, a lot of "so called" Apple resellers are really seedy, hole in the wall, strip mall store fronts. Not exactly a very inviting place to make a purchase. I certainly wouldn't want to take my children there. And let's not talk about the embarrasment of CompUSA or Fry's Electronics. I think Apple has done the right thing by creating their own store and are able to show off their products in their best light. The stores really showcase all of Apple's products and offer a very consistent experiance to the end user. Someone walking into an Apple store will walk away with the same experiance at home with their brand new computer. If you can find a nich selling Apple somewhere, more power to you; but don't go bitching about it when Apple opens a beautiful new Apple store down the street in a mall while the police are cleaning up the murder outside your store from the night before.

Seriously, Apple store are very nice. I have no problem bringing my little two year old son into one and letting him sit on those cool round ball chairs (anyone know where I can get one?) and play with an eMac. I can't say enough about these stores. They are beautifly simple and envite people walking by to come in and look around. How many people do you think come into these stores who had no intention of buying a computer or even going to a computer store? The only reason most of these "resellers" even exist is because it was the only way to get a Mac! Apple is making a strategic decsion to create a presence and put their products in the best possible light. Joe blows computers just doesn't cut it. Thank God for Steve Jobs. Apple would be dead without him.

Yeah, but there's this little concept called "competetivness" in a capitalist market. Which we happen to be in.

I know there's not much of a price difference with Apple products between Apple Stores and authorized retailers. These authorized retailers do present another, less affiliated way to buy, which I appreciate. Also, not all of us are near an Apple Store, there are lots more resellers, CompUSA's and Best Buy's out there than Apple Stores.

And please don't say Apple would be lost without Steve Jobs! He's great and all, and he is responsible for getting Apple back on track, but they could survive without him. He's not quite God or anything.....

Ah, well, I'm ranting now. Goodnight everyone!

sethypoo

Nov 3, 2003, 01:10 AM

voicegy

Nov 3, 2003, 01:18 AM

Originally posted by sethypoo
And please don't say Apple would be lost without Steve Jobs! He's great and all, and he is responsible for getting Apple back on track...

Exactly. Uh, and your point, caller?;)

xtekdiver

Nov 3, 2003, 01:21 AM

Originally posted by sethypoo
Yeah, but there's this little concept called "competetivness" in a capitalist market. Which we happen to be in.

Then let them compete! The point is they can't! And they can't because they suck! Who thought of Apple stores? Steve Jobs. Anyone could have done it, but no one did until Steve Jobs took control. These people are just out to make a buck and don't give a rats ass about Apple's image. Jobs understand very well that if this company is to succeed and grow then they must market their products and deal with the problems of perception; which is to say that most people think Apple computers are over priced and can't run common everyday applications they use. Let's face it folks, Apple has 3% market share because most people have no clue what an Apple computer is or why they should even care. Apple stores are critical to getting that message to the masses of ignorant windows slaves. These resellers present Apple in a very bad light and that has to change. Now it will. Why? Because if you want to compete then you have to offer something better. That's competition!

xtekdiver

Nov 3, 2003, 01:27 AM

Originally posted by voicegy
Exactly. Uh, and your point, caller?;)

Uh, i think that was my point. Without Jobs Apple wouldn't have gotten itself back together. This was his brainchild to begin with.

voicegy

Nov 3, 2003, 01:31 AM

But I wasn't quoting you, xtekdiver, I was quoting sethypoo.

MacRAND

Nov 3, 2003, 01:31 AM

xtekdiver, you make a very good point about all these beautiful new Apple Stores throughout the country (2 high end stores in Metro-Phoenix area), they have set a high standard for independent Apple and PC stores to follow.

But, "screw them" Apple has apparently done, with misrepresentations, broken promises, and a serious lack of integrity. Suggest you read all of the link to my previous post. If you value personal and corporate integrity (enron scandal), then you should be concerned about Apple's misconduct. Selfish and Narcissistic behavior is inexcusable. Ethical behavior should be the standard, not the almighty bottom line. :cool:

Apple should be encouraging and protecting honest independent dealers, not undercutting their prices by unfair business practices. We don't tolerate it from Bill Gates and MS, nor should it be condoned just because it's Steve Jobs and crew at Apple, because the poor babies only have a 3.5% market share. :(

Problem is, without competition and alternatives, you and I become eventually become victims of our own greed when we ignore inappropriate corporate behavior and support greed. Macs are good value, but why should we pay a premium over a fair market price just for the privilege of having a place for someone's children to sit on beanbag chairs and play MacGames in the Apple Store while Daddy shops. I want to know why the Epson scanner for a few hundred dollars is rated as highly as a Nikon scanner for over $1,000 - and whether I should upgrade my HD in my iBook or simply replace it, and why is the Canon i70 a better mobile printer than the HP which appears to cost less - the Geniuses at the Apple store either don't know the answers, or they aren't allowed to share their real knowledge.

You say:
"Screw em! Buy from Apple.com.
Why should we care if somebody can't make a go of a business selling Apple products?
There is no competition; they all sell the computers at the same price."

The competition is underhanded, and indirect like manipulation of rebates and discounts. Apple makes rules that it enforces agains Independents, yet regularly turning around and breaking them itself. It's dishonest and dirty.

Yes, competition is good for us all, but unfair business practices SUCK, regardless of who is to blame. :rolleyes:

xtekdiver

Nov 3, 2003, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by MacRAND
Dahl,

This should make you mad at Apple's treatment of independent dealers:

http://www.thinksecret.com/news/specialistchanges.html

Special Report: Apple cuts Specialist reps; further dealer changes Monday

November 2 - Exclusive Apple will announce Monday that it is firing many of its dealer Representative Apple Executives across the U.S., replacing them with existing inside phone liaisons and upping Apple Specialists' requirements to achieve certain discounts on equipment by as much as 40 percent...

Dirty dealing, Apple. Shame! :mad:

And why praytell is Apple doing this? Because these people are not representing Apple the way Apple want's to be represented. These changes are reflective of the fact that the current state of affairs isn't working and Apple isn't selling enough computers. Out with the old and in with the new! If your current plan isn't working then change it. That is all they are doing here.

xtekdiver

Nov 3, 2003, 01:37 AM

Originally posted by voicegy
But I wasn't quoting you, xtekdiver, I was quoting sethypoo.

Yes I know, sorry, but I don't know how to respond to your quote when your quoting from another post. It gets a bit confusing.

xtekdiver

Nov 3, 2003, 01:49 AM

Originally posted by MacRAND
xtekdiver, you make a very good point about all these beautiful new Apple Stores throughout the country (2 high end stores in Metro-Phoenix area), they have set a high standard for independent Apple and PC stores to follow.

But, "screw them" Apple has apparently done, with misrepresentations, broken promises, and a serious lack of integrity. Suggest you read all of the link to my previous post. If you value personal and corporate integrity (enron scandal), then you should be concerned about Apple's misconduct. Selfish and Narcissistic behavior is inexcusable. Ethical behavior should be the standard, not the almighty bottom line. :cool:

Apple should be encouraging and protecting honest independent dealers, not undercutting their prices by unfair business practices. We don't tolerate it from Bill Gates and MS, nor should it be condoned just because it's Steve Jobs and crew at Apple, because the poor babies only have a 3.5% market share. :(

Problem is, without competition and alternatives, you and I become eventually become victims of our own greed when we ignore inappropriate corporate behavior and support greed. Macs are good value, but why should we pay a premium over a fair market price just for the privilege of having a place for someone's children to sit on beanbag chairs and play MacGames in the Apple Store while Daddy shops. I want to know why the Epson scanner for a few hundred dollars is rated as highly as a Nikon scanner for over $1,000 - and whether I should upgrade my HD in my iBook or simply replace it, and why is the Canon i70 a better mobile printer than the HP which appears to cost less - the Geniuses at the Apple store either don't know the answers, or they aren't allowed to share their real knowledge.

You say:
"Screw em! Buy from Apple.com.
Why should we care if somebody can't make a go of a business selling Apple products?
There is no competition; they all sell the computers at the same price."

The competition is underhanded, and indirect like manipulation of rebates and discounts. Apple makes rules that it enforces agains Independents, yet regularly turning around and breaking them itself. It's dishonest and dirty.

Yes, competition is good for us all, but unfair business practices SUCK, regardless of who is to blame. :rolleyes:

Who needs these companies anyway? Like I said in another post, these channels only exist because there wasn't one before. Are there resellers for Dell or Gateway? No. Why should there be for Apple? These people want to sell Apple products...great, let them. But when Apple no longer needs that channel then bye bye. Apple only answers to Apple. It is Apples' bottom line that's on the line. What happend to the clone makers? They are history! Apple let them exist then changed their mind. Why? Because they were cutting into the bottom line. There is nothing here that says that a company has to allow their products to be sold via other channels. If Apple lets you sell their products to make money, then great. But when they decide that you are a liability then they will say sorry, no more computers for you. Go find something else to sell. Why we as buyers should care about some reseller is beyond me. Apple is competing with the likes of Dell, HP, Gateway, Microsoft, ect. They are not competing with Joe blows computers. If Apple makes a great product and lets you sell it for them then consider yourself lucky, otherwise find another job. This whole competition argument is so misplaced.

xtekdiver

Nov 3, 2003, 02:14 AM

OK, I am a slick computer maker and I make insanely great computers. Now, I need to sell my insanely great computers to the unwashed masses. Hmm., I could let other companies that have store fronts sell my products for me and let them make a profit. Sounds good. I get to sell my stuff and they get to profit from it.

Time passes.

Gee, our stock price isn't doing well and our bottom line is suffering in a bad economy. Lets see. My resellers are doing a piss poor job selling my products and I am not making very much money. I could sell my insanely great computers myself and pocket all the doe, stocks go up, and my share holders are very happy. Dear Mr. reseller, I just don't have enough computers for you, in fact, now that you mention it, we don't need your services anymore. Is that anti-competitive? No. Am I going to go to jail because I don't let other people sell my products? No. Resellers are just that...resellers. Let them go find something else to resell. They exist as a service to companies that either can't or don't want to sell directly to the consumer. That is the reselling business. They compete with other resellers not the manafacturer of the products they sell. If Apple wants to "screw" the resellers by giving their own stores priority then they have every right (and obligation) to do so. There is no law that says a company must use the services of another company to sell their products. These companies exist only because they are allowed to. Apple is not a reseller. They make their own products and have every right to sell them any damn way they want; which is to say the best way to make the most profit; and if that is not via a reseller then oh well, that's the breaks. Guess you will just have to find another product to hawk.

You see, I need to be competitive with those other companies that make crappy computers and software. And in order to be competitive I need to let everyone know just how crapy their stuff is, and the only way for me to do that is to sell my stuff myself. I know what makes my ensanely great computers ensanely great; that stupid reseller doesn't nor does he care, he just sells stuff. Unfortunately, he is selling my stuff, and sorry to say not enough of it for me to keep letting him sell it. My competitors are kicking my a$$ and my stock holders are getting a wee bit nervous. Better get my ship straight and my iMacs in orders, if you know what I mean.

I realize I am being a bit sarcastic here, and my intention is not to insult anyone, but only to make my point in a humorus way. At least it's humorus to me :) Now, if I can just learn how to spell...

ITR 81

Nov 3, 2003, 02:57 AM

We only have CompUSA around here that sells Macs..and the Edu store only sells Apple softeware so it's very limited here. I bought my PB at CompUSA but now I wished I would've bought it online now.
We need Apple Store here atleast in the big city here. I don't mind going hr away to a store but I do mind having to go 4 or more hrs away to get to nearest Apple Store. So I shop online normally.

The only part Apple needs to improve on is make sure dealers get a fair share of the hardware and software not just the Apple Stores.

But like I said before Apple should think about buying some these places out and make them part of the chain of stores.
Only if the store is in good location.

Most places I shop at are online stores like Small Dog, Mac Zone, Mac Connection, Mac Mall, and the Apple Store.
Most those places do pretty well so I doubt I will see anyone of those out business anytime soon.

MacRAND

Nov 3, 2003, 03:17 AM

Competition is not "healthy" if Apple is selfish, lies and cheats.

If there is to be a sequel to "Pirates Of Silicon Valley" (1999), what would be a good name?
How green grows my Apple?
Rotten to the Core, Apple!

Down with Elephant and Polock Jokes - in with Apple Jokes:

Name a liar, a thief and a pirate?
a. Bill Gates
b. Steve Jobs
c. Richard Nixon
d. Black Beard
e. All of the above

No more than an Apple a Day makes the Independent Dealer go away - forever.

Q: How can you tell an Apple Executive is lying?
A: His lips are moving.

An independent Apple dealer shares:

"Since the opening of Apple retail stores, our business has fallen off dramatically and I defy Apple or any independent dealer to deny that," said one dealer in the central U.S. "They promised us Apple retail stores and the online store wouldn't be competition. They have turned right around and lied to us and they compete with us each and every day. Whatever they announce on Monday won't be good for independent dealers. They'll simply cut back more on the support they give us."
Under the direct control of Jeff Hansen, Apple's Senior Director of Channel Sales and Distribution, the Specialist program has found itself dwindling from well over 200 dealers just two years ago to a little more than 150 today. But despite the loss of many dealers who simply went out of business or are now exclusively selling Windows-based systems, the remaining dealers still account for about five percent of Apple's overall business -- a percentage that has stayed firm for some time. In comparison, catalog dealers account for over 30 percent of Apple's sales. Just recently, Apple executives admitted that business from Specialist dealers had gone up 19 percent from a year ago. :eek:
But for many dealers, the increase in business to Apple is not directly reflective of their bottom line. While they have had to adapt and change to a market that now sees dealers directly competing with the company they buy product from, many dealers admit that this direct competition from Apple is making it tougher to close a sale in the Mac market.
"It's tougher and this is no surprise to Apple," said one dealer, who asked not be named. "They kept telling us in the past two years, 'Oh, you don't want the little sales from Mom and Dad. We'll take those off your hands and sell to them direct or through our new retail stores. There's not enough profit in it for you. We'll do you a favor and you can sell the big-profit professional products.' But it's not that simple. Not only did they take away 'Mom and Dad,' they continue to sell to the very businesses they told us they wanted us to concentrate on."
Many dealers have complained that while Apple wants Specialists to think they are getting one segment of the market it doesn't want, the evidence is clear that the company is actively going after those customers.
"I have one simple question," remarked a Specialist dealer based in the southeast U.S. "Why do you think Apple wants us to so aggressively sell AppleCare extended warranties with our equipment? The answer is simple! They then have the email, address and phone number of a customer they can directly contact and sell future products and services to directly, cutting me out of future business!"
Many dealers Think Secret spoke to agree that Apple is using this marketing tactic against them. One dealer shared with us email forwarded to him by a long-time customer who after just 90 days of signing an AppleCare warranty was contacted by Apple about a 'special discount offer' if he bought peripherals from the Apple Store -- just miles from the Specialist dealer he originally did business with.
"They promised us two years ago when Apple stores opened that they would not do repairs in their stores at the Genius Bar," a Texas-based dealer said. "They are now doing repairs. They promised us they would not do software and minor hardware repairs at each stores on a per-hour charge rate. They are now doing exactly that. They promised us they wouldn't market directly to our customers based on a customer list they got from new AppleCare warranties. They have now broken that promise. They have lied to us at every turn. They can't be trusted. There isn't a dealer on this planet that trusts what they say they're going to do."
What makes dealers even more angry is the amount of business they lose because they can't get quantities of products from Apple. In the past two years dealers have piled up stories of new products they were promised by Apple, only to find a nearby Apple retail store, Apple Online store or catalog dealer stating they have more than they can sell.
"Take for instance the current situation," said one west coast dealer. "We can't get new iBooks or PowerBooks. But the Apple Store down the road from me has them stacked five high and three deep. I can't get new 40GB iPods, but the Apple Store has them. What do you think this says about me to my customers who see me without the product they want, and they can get it for the same price down the road? Do you think they're going to wait? Do you think they're going to come back? Get serious."
Whatever the specifics of Monday's announcements are, Apple Specialist dealers will not be surprised if in-house services and support for them are further cut back. "Every dealer knew this was coming," said one reseller who owns multiple locations. "It was just a matter of time. If you have fewer dealers and less and less business, why would you spend money on supporting them? But that's not the point. The point is this is happening because Apple deliberately went after taking our business and they are succeeding bit by bit."
"[Apple CEO] Steve Jobs is like any other big business man," said another dealer. "He wants all the profit for himself. If he can get you to buy directly from him, he makes more profit." :D

caveman_uk

Nov 3, 2003, 03:19 AM

The European Apple online store is so inept I'd rather buy from a reseller if I've got the chance. There's people over here who preordered Panther from Apple online and STILL HAVEN'T GOT IT!

But hey, we haven't got any of those shiny Applestores to go to have we....

ITR 81

Nov 3, 2003, 04:11 AM

Well I hope Jobs puts more stores in states with very little Apple presence before they go overseas.

But I can imagine when they do it will be big. I can see a Japan Apple Store thats 3 stories tall!

I think most of Apples US sales comes from online and mailorder resellers. I wonder what the net and gross was from some these dealers complaining? When the **** hits fan sometimes you need lay off some folks and reorganise the business spending structure and plan.

To me dealers were not to bright to begin with if they actually thought the Apple stores would not compete with them. Why the hell would I chose a Apple Store over them is same reason folks might goto a Dell or Gateway store...because it's owned by the company that makes the computer and there is feeling they will get a better deal through actual company instead a 3rd party dealer. But no matter what the dealers are having to buy from Ingram Micro or Micro Age. So to me alot supply and demand should be blamed on them as well as it's these two dist. here in the US that sell to all the dealers and hence control the supplies going to them.

To me it makes since that Apple store gets products first mostly because they don't have to deal with dist. which dealers do. So why the hell isn't someone yelling first at the dist which supplies the dealers before yelling at Apple. To me it should the dist. that should be yelling at Apple not the dealers. I think most dealers are just pissed with the new contracts and getting pissy because of that. Which to me sounds so much like Unions when they get in a hissy fit.

pbooker

Nov 3, 2003, 07:40 AM

Originally posted by ITR 81
To me dealers were not to bright to begin with if they actually thought the Apple stores would not compete with them. Why the hell would I chose a Apple Store over them is same reason folks might goto a Dell or Gateway store...because it's owned by the company that makes the computer and there is feeling they will get a better deal through actual company instead a 3rd party dealer. But no matter what the dealers are having to buy from Ingram Micro or Micro Age. So to me alot supply and demand should be blamed on them as well as it's these two dist. here in the US that sell to all the dealers and hence control the supplies going to them.

To me it makes since that Apple store gets products first mostly because they don't have to deal with dist. which dealers do. So why the hell isn't someone yelling first at the dist which supplies the dealers before yelling at Apple. To me it should the dist. that should be yelling at Apple not the dealers. I think most dealers are just pissed with the new contracts and getting pissy because of that. Which to me sounds so much like Unions when they get in a hissy fit.

I don't know what most dealers do - but I know my local store gets their product direct from Apple so there's no reason we had to wait an extra 4 days to get Panther. Apple could have (and should have) shipped the product so it was there in time to release it, just like it did for it's own Apple stores.

Business owners aren't complaining because they now have to compete with Apple - they're complaing because they were promised by Apple that they wouldn't have to compete. That's all.

Totalshock

Nov 3, 2003, 08:39 AM

This is not an apology for Apple, which, especially in the U.S., has been as bad as HP and the other big hardware vendors in telling their channel partners one thing, and then doing quite something else.

But the truth is, if you're making your living selling hardware, and that's all, moving boxes... you should probably consider a new model, unless your name is CDW, and you move a BOATLOAD of boxes. Because unless you're moving a massive amount, the margins you're making just don't mean long-term profitability.

So how do I, as Joe Computer Dealer down the street, compete with The Apple Store? Well, for consumers, there's very little you can do, aside from providing kick-ass service and knowledge, as well as an impartiality that The Apple Store will never have (If you sell hammers, every problem requires a nail.)

But for selling to small and medium business, you can do it by doing things a retailer can never do... offering good service. And I don't mean in-store "advice" on what to buy (which is always, coincidentally, something that's in stock and costs more than anything else for sale.) I mean providing network support, helping them find the software packages they need, installing and integrating when it needs to be done, helping them with things they don't think of. It's all about being a trusted advisor.

That's why you don't see many companies that identify themselves as "HP dealers" or what-have-you. Because most of those people prefer to think of themselves as solution providers... they listen to what the client wants, and craft a solution that best fits that need, whether it's Mac-only, Windows-only, Linux-only, or a mixture of all three, with a storage network on the back and more.

As for the "Dell doesn't have dealers" comment... much of Dell's sales to small business (companies too small to warrant Global Services engagements) are quietly supported by such solution providers.... guys who don't want the headaches of handling the boxes and making three per cent on that, but can make 20+ per cent by selling their knowledge and skills to support installations.

Small businesses are NOTORIOUSLY loyal to their local reseller. The local vet office doesn't want to be upsold to a dual G5 when all they need is a way to get their POS application which runs on an old iMac to talk to their small-business accounting package, which runs on Windows in the back.

In short, if they're trying to live off nothing but hardware revenues, Apple is probably doing them a favour by putting 'em out to pasture. But if they're adapting and becoming higher-touch and higher-service, and Apple still chokes them out... then that's a very very bad sign for Apple's future, and for Apple's philosophy as a business.

The irony here is that I can't even say "they're as bad as Microsoft at this," because if there's one company in this industry which is masterful at avoiding channel conflict, and making sure that all of its reseller partners are profitable, happy, and evangelists for its producs, it's Microsoft. That will be an unpopular statement, but I know of which I speak.

blueBomber

Nov 3, 2003, 08:58 AM

I think that each retail place gives their customers their own reasons to shop with that particular place.

For example; I recently bought my 12" PB from MacZone.com, because for $40 more I got an Airport Extreme card and a carrying case, these items would have easily cost me around $160 if I bought them myself. Apple's store offers no such bundle deal. A friend of mine just bought a new emac, from apple.com, simply because of the educational discount and the apple loan for education. Both of us got good deals on our purchases, but we chose where we bought them based on the value to our personal needs. This is how business compete. I for one will probably never buy anything from apple themselves, due to the fact that most resellers offer packages or free items. Plus, when MacZone says something will ship on a specific day, it does. My friend waited 2 weeks for his emac, when his ipod from the same order arrived the next day.

Sailfish

Nov 3, 2003, 09:09 AM

Apple needs exposure desperatly. It compiles the zip codes from Apple Store customers to determine new store locations.

Exposure with retail stores where potential new customers can come in and try/buy is very important for the success of Apple.

The independants are going to be hurt sure, but if Apple didn't make these "growth moves" it would become stagnent and handtied by those companies who sell "everything" and ignore Apples best interests for their own.

fixyourthinking

Nov 3, 2003, 09:54 AM

Originally posted by MDiddy
Apple is placing their stores in particular areas that meet a certain demigraphic, much mike any other retailer. They will put there stores where they think they can make the most money, not just to be "there" They have been very effective so far, I doubt that will go away any time soon. In the Chicago area, store #3 is opening this weekend, and a 4th store in Lincoln Park is probably a year away.

Grammar aside, I completely disagree. At first Apple did right by placing stores in strategic areas with "high income districts". Well, to place so many stores in a state is a mistake in my opinion. Seems to me, while not conveiniant, most people will drive 75-100 miles to an Apple Store.

In my opinion, a place like Atlanta doesn't need a 2nd store. Chicago, certainly doesn't need a 3rd and 4th total in Illinois.

They should have at least one in EVERY state before expanding to more than 2 in ANY state. (Of course states like Montana, Oklahoma, etc might be excluded) but my home state of South Carolina could easily support one. We have the highest concentration of Advertisment agencies per capita of ANY area in the upstate of SC where I live.

I say all this and I'm building my own retail store (Apple sales service support only) - I would welcome the competition and security an Apple Store would provide to my community. Right now, without a presence, other than CompUSA, and soon Best Buy, our area's mac User's feel unsupported, and, in a sense, unloved by Apple in general.

xtekdiver

Nov 3, 2003, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by MacRAND
Competition is not "healthy" if Apple is selfish, lies and cheats.

If there is to be a sequel to "Pirates Of Silicon Valley" (1999), what would be a good name?
How green grows my Apple?
Rotten to the Core, Apple!

Down with Elephant and Polock Jokes - in with Apple Jokes:

Name a liar, a thief and a pirate?
a. Bill Gates
b. Steve Jobs
c. Richard Nixon
d. Black Beard
e. All of the above

No more than an Apple a Day makes the Independent Dealer go away - forever.

Q: How can you tell an Apple Executive is lying?
A: His lips are moving.

An independent Apple dealer shares:

"Since the opening of Apple retail stores, our business has fallen off dramatically and I defy Apple or any independent dealer to deny that," said one dealer in the central U.S. "They promised us Apple retail stores and the online store wouldn't be competition. They have turned right around and lied to us and they compete with us each and every day. Whatever they announce on Monday won't be good for independent dealers. They'll simply cut back more on the support they give us."

"[Apple CEO] Steve Jobs is like any other big business man," said another dealer. "He wants all the profit for himself. If he can get you to buy directly from him, he makes more profit." :D

Again, why should we care? Times change. When Apple stores first started there was all kinds of talk about how stupid this move was and that it wouldn't work. I am sure that in board meetings at Apple there was just that kind of discussion. Do we want the overhead? Will this weigh us down? Will it work? Insert question?

At any rate, I think at this point the Apple stores are doing very well and Apple has decided to up the anty and start building them all over the place. Uh oh, the poor cry baby distributors are facing competition from the company that lets them sell their products. Does that mean Apple lied? Absolutely not. The market changed, Apple's gamble worked, and now Apple, for the benefit of their company, is taking advantage of it. If Apple didn't do this and worried about poor distributer then their market share might drop to 2%, or 1%, or none %. Then what will the stupid distributers sell? Why are you worried about some distributer and not the company that makes your nice computer? I think you need to check your loyalties. So what if Steve Jobs is mercanary, every CEO in America is, that's the way it works in this country; it's called compitition. Only the strong survive. If he wasn't fighting for Apple's survival then you might actually have to use the only option out there, Microsoft. Seems to me that Apple is only one of a very few options available to people. Screw the distributors, let Apple promote and sell their products any way they want, and if there is something left over for mr. distributor and he can make a buck too, all the better. Let them adapt or let them sell somebody elses product.

fixyourthinking

Nov 3, 2003, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by pbooker
I don't know what most dealers do - but I know my local store gets their product direct from Apple so there's no reason we had to wait an extra 4 days to get Panther. Apple could have (and should have) shipped the product so it was there in time to release it, just like it did for it's own Apple stores.

Business owners aren't complaining because they now have to compete with Apple - they're complaing because they were promised by Apple that they wouldn't have to compete. That's all.

That's just the problem - your local dealer SHOULDN'T have been selling Panther on the release date. What I will do when I open up is demonstrate the OS and have a "Panther party" on a day like that. Why would you, as a dealer, be somewhat dishonest and promote a potential problem with your customers. I never EVER sell latest and greatest. For instance, the newest PowerBooks may potentially have spotty screens. That's why the next generation will probably be the one to buy. (The speed bump usually is) I would not and have not sold Panther to a single person or business. I will when the first update comes out.

This is where I might receive some benefit from an Apple Store. The people who have to first in line will most likely have to get ME to fix it when they experience problems.

G4 iMacs, Dual Ghz G4 Towers, iBook G3s are the tested, little problem units. Apple is actually, in a small way, hoodwinking you into thinking you should have the greatest, right now thing, before they work out the bugs.

Side note: I completely agree with the post that stated hardware is NOT where the money is at and any dealer that thinks so is destined to fail.

gregorypierce

Nov 3, 2003, 10:26 AM

If Apple wants to replace the dealers, they need to do a far far better job than they are currently. Apple's entire retail operation is a prime example of disorganization and inefficiency.

If you want to buy something 'direct' from Apple you can buy from the online store, or the apple retail stores, or the website which services the retail stores. NONE of these share information such as discount eligibility for corporations and students. You can only get these from the 'official' apple online store (what you don't trust the Apple retail stores).

If you have an order at the official Apple web store, you can't even pick it up at an Apple retail store - even if they have that very item in stock! That is just lidicrous and inefficient beyond belief.

The Apple stores are one of the slowest ways you can order ANYTHING from Apple since they apparently don't work on - nor ship on weekends! This is profoundly stupid, especially with respect to shipping. If I want to pay to have something delivered on a Saturday, hell why not deliver to me on a Saturday. Why is everything measured in business days?

MacMall in my opinion is far more efficient and for more capable a seller of Apple hardware than Apple themselves. If Apple wants to 'replace' folks like this, then they damn well need to do as good a job as they do because I cringe everytime I have to order things from Apple because I always know that unless its through a corporate discount, its going to be more expensive, slower to ship, and harder to track its *real* status than if I'd ordered from just about any of apples dealers.

MacRAND

Nov 3, 2003, 10:53 AM

If Apple continues restraint of trade through a vertical monopoly, not only will it get sued by independent Apple Dealers, the Federal Government will step in with criminal charges.

Having a good, well designed product is no excuse for immoral or illegal behavior.

So, is product loyalty a good excuse to ignore corporate corruption?
Apple = Enron?

Bite the Apple - look for worms!
fraud, corruption, breach of contract, unfair competition, false ads, restraint of trade...

What makes us think that Apple hasn't been lying to us, its customers, too?
It has! Note recent settlements of class action lawsuits regarding Apple's misrepresentations regarding OS X.
••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

APPLE DEALERS BIT BACK
Mac sellers say computer maker cuts them out in favor of its outlets -- and they're fighting mad

Henry Norr, Chronicle Staff Writer Monday, February 3, 2003
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apple Computer Co. has been hit by a growing number of lawsuits filed by Mac dealers who are upset by the company's alleged efforts to lure their customers to outlets that Apple owns. They are also fed up with what they say are long-standing problems in the company's service and billing systems.

Tom Santos, owner of San Francisco's MacAdam, one of the largest Apple- authorized storefront dealerships in the nation, filed a multimillion-dollar complaint last month that accuses the Cupertino company of fraud, breach of contract, unfair competition, false advertising and even violation of the federal RacketeerInfluenced and Corrupt Organizations Act.

Santos isn't alone. Jack Kohler, owner of Mac Tech Systems of Bend, Ore., filed a similar case last fall. A Los Angeles dealership, Computer International, filed a suit last week.

And Elite Computers & Software of Cupertino, the owner of four Bay Area stores that operate under the ComputerWare name, plans to get on the bandwagon later this month, according to its chief executive officer, Thomas Armes.

Lynn Fox, Apple's corporate media relations manager, declined to comment on the suits by dealers.

Tensions between Apple and its resellers are nothing new, and similar problems have frequently arisen in relations between other computer manufacturers and their dealers.

But the slump that has plagued the entire industry for more than two years, combined with Apple's move toward a distribution system less dependent on independent dealerships, has apparently heated the conflict to the boiling point.

"They've just been cheating us for years, making us look bad and screwing our customers," said Santos, 47, who has operated MacAdam for 14 years and last year recorded sales of more than $6 million. "I've got six big binders full of horror stories, all carefully documented. :(

"It's not about the money," he said. "The only thing I've ever asked until now is that they fix the problems." But his San Francisco attorney, Marcus Merchasin, said: "We figure the company probably owes Tom close to $12 million -- that's our target." That's not counting the punitive damages, which could treble the total on some counts, and legal costs the plaintiffs are also seeking to recover, he said.

No timetable for the case will be set until a dispute over the venue is resolved, but state rules require that such cases go to trial within one year, according to Merchasin. All the suits have been filed in Superior Court for the County of Santa Clara, but Apple's lawyers have sought to move them to the U.S. District Court in San Jose.

In recent years, Apple has pushed to boost Mac sales through company-owned channels -- its direct sales force, its online store and the boutiques it has recently opened in Emeryville, Palo Alto, Santa Clara and 48 other upscale locations around the country.

Since launching the Apple-owned stores, Jobs and other company executives have repeatedly said that the purpose of the initiative is to increase the visibility of the Mac platform and attract "switchers" from Windows, not to take business away from the independent authorized dealers who still account for most Mac sales.

But Santos said Apple gives its own stores a variety of advantages not available to dealers, including the first shipments of hot new models, and discounts and promotions, such as free memory and printers.

What angers him the most, Santos said, is that Apple's own sales representatives, when talking to customers, regularly disparage the competence and even the integrity of independent dealers, including dealers like him who have a long record of success and have been certified by Apple to service as well as sell its products. As proof, dealers have Apple representatives on tape. :eek:

Lancetx

Nov 3, 2003, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by xtekdiver
Then let them compete! The point is they can't! And they can't because they suck! Who thought of Apple stores? Steve Jobs. Anyone could have done it, but no one did until Steve Jobs took control. These people are just out to make a buck and don't give a rats ass about Apple's image. Jobs understand very well that if this company is to succeed and grow then they must market their products and deal with the problems of perception; which is to say that most people think Apple computers are over priced and can't run common everyday applications they use. Let's face it folks, Apple has 3% market share because most people have no clue what an Apple computer is or why they should even care. Apple stores are critical to getting that message to the masses of ignorant windows slaves. These resellers present Apple in a very bad light and that has to change. Now it will. Why? Because if you want to compete then you have to offer something better. That's competition!

I couldn't agree with you more. These "resellers" certainly haven't gotten Apple very far over the years now have they? If Apple is ever going to climb out of the single digits in market share, they're going to have to take the bull by the horns and do it themselves.

Anyone that needs an example just needs to go to a CompUSA location first and then visit an Apple Store afterwards to see the world of difference. I say more power to Apple for being assertive in getting their products out there. Resellers be damned, Apple is now obviously having to do it themselves since no one else is ever going to...they've been a second class citizen in other's computer stores for long enough.

ddbean

Nov 3, 2003, 11:22 AM

Apple is screwing IADs AND their customers. I'm a prime example of what I mean. When G5s were announced, I make a choice to upgrade my box AND support my local dealer, so I pre-ordered and paid in full on a dual G5 with 9800 card and BT. I'm still waiting for my CTO is be delivered from a July 23 order date. Yet people who have ordered in Sept on web got theirs delivered in mid oct, with even more custom config that I got.

This is such a wrong, wrong, wrong business practice that there can be such a difference between a web order and IAD order.

The IAD I support thinks Apple is trying to convert them into a local repair shop only to save on shipping cost for Apple, but how in the heck can they stay in business on repairs only? They need 8-10 customers a day for repairs to make that work, and that's just not an option.

I love the Apple stores in the malls, but I hardly consider them "genius" at the bar. I can ask my IAD any question and get an answer I can trust (save your money, or I don't recommend doing that for what you're trying to do), or even an "I'm not sure, but I can find out for you". The "genius" at the Apple Store couldn't even fix a panther problem we're having with the keychain on an iBook.

There are thousands of IADs around the world and only 65 Apple stores, so Apple needs to give the IADs full support with equal product availability and make the experience of buying an Apple product a great user experience REGARDLESS of where that user chooses to go.

And that's my 2 cents...

(btw, mine was supposed to be in transit today, going ground, so I hope I can stop my bitchin here soon)

Phil Of Mac

Nov 3, 2003, 11:31 AM

Why doesn't Apple just go to a direct-sales-only business model, killing most of the dealers and buying out the others, especially those with some expertise in direct solutions (video, graphics, etc.)? Lower prices for us, more profits for them.

Why not? They don't have enough Apple Stores yet, that's why not.

Lanbrown

Nov 3, 2003, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by bobindashadows
I'm not gonna lie - a local Apple store is putting a local retailer (a previous winner of the best retail location award not too long ago) out of business..

Consumers will shop where its most convenient, best prices and service. If a company goes out of business, it was based upon their actions.

phranque27

Nov 3, 2003, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by xtekdiver
Then let them compete! The point is they can't! And they can't because they suck! ... These resellers present Apple in a very bad light and that has to change. Now it will. Why? Because if you want to compete then you have to offer something better. That's competition!

Unfortunately this is sorta true. Apple Resellers were sitting on a monopoly in most towns... a medium-sized city generally has one or maybe two of them. And what happens when you have a monopoly, kids? Exactly, you stagnate. These resellers were turning into the equivalent of the phone or electric company. They were the only ones who had Macs, and so they stopped renovating their stores or being aggressive sometime around 1987. Hell, many of them still have posters announcing the "new" bondi iMac!

I don't mean to paint them all with the same brush -- many are doing an awesome job. But competition is a good thing. The Computer Store, which has a horrendous reputation here in Seattle, saw the writing on the wall when the Apple Store moved in down the street. They completely remodeled their store, rebranded themselves as "The Seattle Mac Store", and FINALLY got around to taking down the rainbow-colored Apple logo that's been gracing their storefront for nigh on a decade! Competition forced them to improve.

Smart dealers willl survive in the niches, by providing what Apple can't: local knowledge, connections, and service.

Apple's tactics are sneaky and underhanded... anyone who doesn't see this is suffering from a case of the RDF: I mean, if Microsoft was accused of HALF the things Apple is being accused of in this article, y'all would be screaming bloody murder.

The truth is that Apple is going after the Mac dealers' clients because they're easy sales. If Apple wanted to really improve their market share, they'd be targeting PC users, instead of focusing so much energy on grabbing EXISTING MAC USERS FROM THE RESELLERS!

So the lazy apple corporate rep can go to his boss and say "Hey I won three corporate accounts today", and conveniently forget to mention that those accounts were already being served by a Reseller, and all he did was offer the account a discount to switch to apple Direct. The lazy rep then gets a fat commission and a raise, and the folks in Cupertino believe their own hype and think they've scored a big victory.

MacRAND

Nov 3, 2003, 11:56 AM

It's okay to screw independent Apple dealers so Apple can have greater market share? Really?

Have you ever wondered why CompUSA, BEST BUY, Fry's Electronics and other big box stores are so reluctant to trust Apple enough to invest in substantial displays of Macs in their stores? :confused:

Independent Apple Dealers have thinned out from 200 to about 150 in the last couple of years, yet are reportedly responsible for 19% growth in sales over the last 4 quarters. ;) Growing Apple is what they do well.

Now, if Apple steals the independent business for themselves through unfair and illegal business practices out of greed, that's acceptable? I don't think so! It's dishonest and immoral.

Has anyone forgotten how Apple licensed and encouraged several companies to manufacture Mac computers back in the PPC 604 chip days (PowerMAX), then turned around and pulled their licenses (which they had a contractual and legal RIGHT to do) leaving UMAX and several other Apple enthusiasts high and dry with development costs they had to eat because they could no longer spread them over several years and become profitable.
RESULT: Trust Apple? :confused: Sure, at your peril, especially financial. :mad:

Is it any wonder that hardware manufacturers of Apple peripheral products and software DO NOT trust Apple? :(

Apple has a good public image because of well designed product, but
it has a horrible commercial reputation among all but a few industry titans like Adobe and Microsoft, and even they watch their back.

Steve Jobs is currently well perceived by the public, but all his popularity could come crashing down with a nasty little scandal... and, one is brewing. Where is the Chairman of ENRON today?

Beware! the ides of March 2004. :rolleyes:

MacRAND

Nov 3, 2003, 12:01 PM

Did Apple get caught lying to us, or what?

Case No. BC 267266

MASON BANCROFT, et al., and
other similarly situated consumers,
Plaintiffs,
V.

APPLE COMPUTER, INC., a business entity from
unknown; and DOES 1 through 20, Inclusive,
Defendants.
____________________________________

NOTE: FOR A COPY OF THE JUDGMENT, CLICK below -

http://appleosx.rosenthalco.com/notice.html

Dahl

Nov 3, 2003, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by Lanbrown
Consumers will shop where its most convenient, best prices and service. If a company goes out of business, it was based upon their actions.
True, but I'm wondering if Apple is using the Starbucks way. Moving in a high rent area and just wait for the resellers to close doors, even if Apples own store sales can't pay for it's own rent. Many resellers simply can't afford to to be in a high rent area.
Apple resellers have to find new ways to attract people, just like the Seattle Mac store mentioned earlier. Maybe some stores would benefit from being a part of a Apple User group, does anybody still use those ?

btw. Great thread, guys! :)

sethypoo

Nov 3, 2003, 01:07 PM

Originally posted by xtekdiver
Then let them compete! The point is they can't! And they can't because they suck! Who thought of Apple stores? Steve Jobs. Anyone could have done it, but no one did until Steve Jobs took control. These people are just out to make a buck and don't give a rats ass about Apple's image. Jobs understand very well that if this company is to succeed and grow then they must market their products and deal with the problems of perception; which is to say that most people think Apple computers are over priced and can't run common everyday applications they use. Let's face it folks, Apple has 3% market share because most people have no clue what an Apple computer is or why they should even care. Apple stores are critical to getting that message to the masses of ignorant windows slaves. These resellers present Apple in a very bad light and that has to change. Now it will. Why? Because if you want to compete then you have to offer something better. That's competition!

Good Lord, I just don't want Apple to be the only ones who sell Apple products. I am a consumer, I want a choice, I want variety!

You say:
"resellers present Apple in a very bad light."
This is extremely objective. Who says they do? Oftentimes, Apple resellers have a little more in depth, user knowledge of Apple products than the kids putting themselves through college in Apple Stores.

You say:
"These [Apple resellers] people are just out to make a buck and don't give a rats ass about Apple's image."
Um, why? They want buisness for their Apple products! Why would they ever make Apple have a "bad image" if they want to sell their (Apple's) products?

Get your facts straight! Don't you ever want to "shop around"?

sethypoo

Nov 3, 2003, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by voicegy
Exactly. Uh, and your point, caller?;)

My point was that he's still the CEO of a corporation, which are out to make money, not friends. :)

[Edited for spelling errors.]

yamabushi

Nov 3, 2003, 02:35 PM

Apple should make an offer to all existing independent dealers for an Apple store franchise. Using a subsidized franchise model could be a much more effective way to encourage growth than a combination of independent dealers and wholly owned stores. Existing dealers would be provided with extra financing for building a new store or improving their current one. Wholly owned stores should only be built where operating costs are especially high such as downtown locations or in areas that lack potential franchisees. Company owned stores should be made available for sale to franchisees at a reasonable price. Apple would retain the right to revoke or fail to renew a franchise under certain extreme circumstances.

Applicants for a franchise would have to have a location approved by Apple. The decision to approve or not would be based primarily upon the proximity of other Apple stores. Independent dealers then could either use their current location or move to a better one. The appearance of all stores should be made to be somewhat uniform by subsidy investments made by Apple. Apple should pay for all of the initial build out costs if an IAD decides to switch to a franchise, which provides an incentive for Apple to make a return on the investment. Franchisees would only be required to cover operating costs and pay a modest annual franchise fee.

Future store improvements would either be paid for by the franchisee or provided by Apple as a competitive reward for excellence in customer service, sales, profitability or other measure. Special promotional events would be granted on the basis of similar measures.

Product discounts should be provided evenly to all resellers including both franchisees and other retailers in the form of instant or mail-in rebates. Products should be made available to all stores in a timely manner through improved supply chain management. Franchisees would be given more control over their stores than current company owned Apple stores but less than they would have had as independent dealers. This would allow dealers the opportunity to make decisions about store layout and employee training.

Dealers should be allowed to provide custom build to order products using approved parts. The list of approved parts should be extensive and include many options not available online. Online customers should always be given the option of completing a purchase at a store. Hardware service and support should be provided at all franchise stores. Software and peripheral selections at each store should be plentiful.

billyboy

Nov 3, 2003, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by sethypoo
Good Lord, I just don't want Apple to be the only ones who sell Apple products. I am a consumer, I want a choice, I want variety!

You say:
"resellers present Apple in a very bad light."
This is extremely objective. Who says they do? Oftentimes, Apple resellers have a little more in depth, user knowledge of Apple products than the kids putting themselves through college in Apple Stores.

You say:
"These [Apple resellers] people are just out to make a buck and don't give a rats ass about Apple's image."
Um, why? They want buisness for their Apple products! Why would they ever make Apple have a "bad image" if they want to sell their (Apple's) products?

Get your facts straight! Don't you ever want to "shop around"?

From a West of England perspective, I would drop a bomb on all the resellers I contacted when looking for a Powerbook. I dont want choice if it means dealing over the phone to make an appointment just to go and see some polite but blundering hob knob working out the back of a secretarial services or printing business.

For the vast majority of Brits I would suggest that clicking onto the web site and buying direct from Apple Store is far and away the best way to buy. The reselling network is a shambles and god knows where they or Apple got the idea one man bands with no retail front could promote and sell Macs. They are the face of the diminishing market share. If they really believe in Apple´s future, which they should, give them the chance to upgrade to a totally appropriate standard shop. It wouldnt have to be massive, just something to reflect what Apple are doing with their store. If they bitch and moan, adios. This isnt 1993, change or die, like what Apple are having to do.

There is some glimmer of hope here in Bristol in that a couple of classy out of town department stores have a decent array of Macs, but even then if I was the person responsible for justifying returns per squre foot of rented floor space, Id get shot of every salesmen currently trying to promote and sell Apple in department stores. Then Id pay any money to headhunt lively and knowledgeable Apple users (the switched on types on this type of forum) and place them with a really switched on tech headhunted from a current Apple resellers. That way you keep an Apple presence, keep technical Mac knowledge on hand and the only losers are the reseller "entrepreneurs", who can just take the hint and concentrate on selling typing by the word or whatever they did before.

And Apple please put an Apple superstore in just half a dozen cities in the UK. At the moment its blind dinosaurs leading the blind.

ITR 81

Nov 3, 2003, 02:48 PM

I checked Apples Website and they only have 2 Apple Specialist in my state besides the CompUSA's.

I did however found out an Apple Store will open in new mall being built on the border but the problem with that is the coast is around 3hrs away from me. I want store that is built into the center of the state not over 3 hrs away.
Maybe since they are building a new entertainment center here they will build an Apple Store there. I can only hope. I'll drive 1-2hr drive but nothing over that unless I'm just going up that way.

Day Tripper

Nov 4, 2003, 09:03 PM

Altruism notwithstanding, what bothers me about Apple's behavior with their IADs is that, once they are effectively eliminated, we, the unsuspecting consumers, will have no other place to turn when Apple begins to screw with us. And, for those of us who love the platform, we will have as little option available to us as the current IADs have if they want to continue selling Apples.

Apple will have to make up their massive expenditures on their retail push somewhere--once their lackies are gone--and the next logical party is the end user--you and me.

The advertising industry is now virtually dependent upon Macs. Apple will not go out of business as long as it maintains this technological edge. No, it will be the individual consumers that will have to make up the difference once Apple can no longer rape their independent resellers.

Guess what? It is already happening. Hidden charges, .imac accounts being "automatically" renewed, fewer items being covered under Applecare--check it out and you will see.

MacRAND

Nov 5, 2003, 09:38 AM

Day Tripper has it exactly right, Apple screws the Independent Apple Dealers (IADs) today, then us as consumers tomorrow.

It is shortsighted to think a cool :cool: new Apple Store in our neighborhood is a solution to Apple's retail problem and our desire for a good place to shop. Yes, I love our 2 pretty Apple Stores here in metro-Phoenix. Buy I've bought my last two Macs from other sources, iBook at Fry's because of their Apple Expert (who left because he wasn't appreciated by Fry's Management) and the other from an Online Warehouse I've been doing thousands of dollars of business with for over a decade. ;)

Now, I'm turning to a new local store - MacMedia (AirPort Extreme & software), and an older one called MacSales (repairs and lots of other stuff), which specializes in high-end commercial printers $5,000 and up and printing giant posters, banners, etc.

Until Apple changes the way it treats IADs, I'll visit the Apple Store to play with the new toys and absorb tons of visual overload and information, then I'll support my local IAD with the purchase, even over an Internet warehouse.

The good health of my favorite independent store keeps Apple in check, keeps my Macs running smoothly, and is a valuable a source of unbiased technical information. Often, the difference in price is less than the cost of a Happy Meal at McDonald's. :cool:

Plus, why would anyone buy a Canon or Nikon camera for regular retail at an Apple Store when we can save as much as fifth to a hundred dollars at Ultimate Electronics or some discount camera shop? :p And the IADs often have incredible deals on scanners and other peripherals that Apple never offers.

bcsimac

Nov 5, 2003, 11:54 AM

What irks me is that a guy like me who is very Mac knowledgable and has over 6 years of experience in the Mac retail sales and service market can't get hired by a local Apple Store and then what are my options....it's either a CompUSA who I know most you don't like or an IAD who I would rather support and work for. I chose an IAD despite the fact that a CompUSA was here in the Memphis area. I get started with an IAD and then Apple stabs us in the back constantly with unfair practices that give the Apple Store in Germantown all the advantages. What are guys like me who need to put food on the table supposed to do. I don't have the resources to compete against Apple. I ended up getting a part-time job at Cracker Barrel as a waiter because I ran out of resources to try to compete. I am frustrated because I love selling and supporting Macs. I am a faithful Mac user who has supported the Mac for over 10 years. I have put blood, sweat, and tears into making the Mac image look better. I have tiredlessly busted my rear and spent myself broke trying to make ads on my own, design web sites, travel as much as 3 hours from my company location, go to trade shows like MacWorld Expo, try to keep my equipment relatively up to date, try to obtain as much software as possible so as to be helpful to those who need help, and try show support to the Mac User Group. Over and over in the user group meetings, I have shown that often times I know more than the local Apple Store "Genius"......the guy didn't even know that DV Camcorders don't work with G3 based macs and iChatAV......I knew that and I don't even work for Apple! However, whenever the "Genius" wants to do the presentation for the meeeting.....oh he is welcome to do it at any time......how about a guy like me? The point is that sometimes the small guys want to help Apple, want to build up the Apple image, wants to support the local user group, wants to network with the best Mac users out their, wants to promote the Mac to the average computer user, and wants to make money; but we don't have nearly the same resources to work with nor do we get the special priviledges that employees of the Apple Store get.