Firewire 800 Panther Patches

[MacRumors]

MacNN quotes (http://www.macnn.com/news/21890) Oxford Semiconductor regarding the data-loss problems associated with Mac OS X 10.3 and some external Firewire drives.

According to the company, it affects drives with OXUF922 Firewire Drives which contain the 1.03 software revision or less. Therefore, it is recommended that all users upgrade to v1.05 which should be available from your drive manufacturer. Data loss is most likely to occur at startup and shutdown, so it is recommended that users hot-plug/unplug their Firewire drives from their systems while their system is booted.

LaCie: 1.05 Driver (http://www.lacie.com/support/drivers/)
OWC/MacSales: 1.05 Driver (http://eshop.macsales.com/Reviews/Framework.cfm?page=/hardwareandnews/oxford/oxfordandpanther.html)
FirewireDirect: 1.05 (http://www.firewiredirect.com/site/panther.shtml)
EZQuest: 1.0.5 (http://www.ezq.com/helpdesk/index.php?t=answ&id=38)

[DHagan4755]

Thanks Arn, for keeping us apprised.

[daRAT]

so fw 400 is un-effected? What about BusLink drives?

[daveL]

Originally posted by daRAT
so fw 400 is un-effected? What about BusLink drives?
If you don't have an enclosure that uses the Oxford Semi 922 *you don't have a problem*. This is not about fw400 vs fw800, it's about *the Oxford Semi 922 with fireware version <= 1.03*.

[StudioGuy]

> it is recommended that users hot-plug/unplug their Firewire drives from
> their systems while their system is booted.

Not an expert at this, but I don't think it would be too wise to hot-unplug your Firewire drive. I think the safest thing to do is "Eject" it first, and then you can turn it off.

When I "Eject" mine, the disk spins down, and then I know all of the data has been written; i.e, there is nothing in cache waiting to be written. I think I have seen elsewhere where this could also corrupt a partition, like if you yank out a USB drive. They can also be messed up if you don't "eject" first.

At least, this is what I do with Jag, and <knock-knock> never a problem yet. Waiting on Digi to go to Panther.....

[sethypoo]

Mac Rumors' motto should be "You heard it here, first."

Oh, wait, I think that's taken.....

[danielgrenell]

shouldn't these updates have been available when they came out? not when it was absolutely necessary.

[MacVault]

What about iPods? I thought I read a few reports of iPods getting jacked up when used on Panther. Different problem, or am I on crack?

[idkew]

Originally posted by MacVault
What about iPods? I thought I read a few reports of iPods getting jacked up when used on Panther. Different problem, or am I on crack?

ever play that game where one person tells another a secret and so on, down a line and then the last person repeats it aloud?

this is where your iPod corruption idea prolly came from. as well as the 911 chipset problems.

[ryme4reson]

So I took the HD out of my PowerMac and use it with a firewire enclosure. How do I find out what chipset my "el cheapo" enslosure uses?

As a side note, I was using this drive and storing my mp3's on it. I was playing them at a party I was hosting and the drive froze, and I used Norton to recover the drive. I finally copied all mp3's over from the external disk, and although they all copied, many of them are cut short. The entire mp3 is intact, but iTunes and Quicktime will go to the next song at various times, but the entire song is not finished. If anyone knows a fix, please let me know.

[MacVault]

IDKEW: Yea, I know the game you're talking about, but I did indeed read on one of these threads about someone who's iPod would not even be seen by the system until they installed Panther on the iPod itself. Then the iPod would show up. I don't know. Anyway, I have a new iBook G4 coming tomorrow so I'll get to play with Panther then. Fortunately I don't have an external FW drive to mess up.

[ITR 81]

It's good to hear they have updates for their firmware now..so thats pretty quick too since the OS hasn't been out very long.

I remember folks saying something about iPods too but I've never seen a problem except I'm wearing out my iPod's remote pretty fast.

[MacVault]

So, I have a Powerbook 12" and tomorrow I'm getting a new iBook G4 with Panther. My question is: is it safe to use my PB in target-disk-mode connected to the iBook via FireWire so that I can transfer my dada over to the iBook?

Or should the iBook be in target-disk-mode connected to my PB?

[Phil Of Mac]

Originally posted by StudioGuy
> it is recommended that users hot-plug/unplug their Firewire drives from
> their systems while their system is booted.

Not an expert at this, but I don't think it would be too wise to hot-unplug your Firewire drive. I think the safest thing to do is "Eject" it first, and then you can turn it off.

By hot-plugging they mean not turning off your computer to plug and unplug. Ejecting is still cool.

Originally posted by idkew
this is where your iPod corruption idea prolly came from. as well as the 911 chipset problems.

The iPod chipset has problems using Panther on September 11? :eek:

[Fofer]

I have direct confirmation from a Mac tech who has now lost THREE FireWire drives that were connected to Panther systems.

Each drive was in a *FW 400* enclosure.

Now what, Apple?

[Darren]

Originally posted by ryme4reson
So I took the HD out of my PowerMac and use it with a firewire enclosure. How do I find out what chipset my "el cheapo" enslosure uses?


I've seen this asked a few times - does anyone have an answer?

I'm in the same situation. I use my external drive for nightly backups using Carbon Copy Cloner but a backup that gets scrambled isn't much use! (especially with the back up before upgrading advice).

I'll just keep the drive un-plugged until I hear some sort of definitive answer.

[Makosuke]

Originally posted by daveL
If you don't have an enclosure that uses the Oxford Semi 922 *you don't have a problem*. This is not about fw400 vs fw800, it's about *the Oxford Semi 922 with fireware version <= 1.03*. I do not think is correct. Oxford is saying that only 922 chipset-based drives are a problem, and perhaps there was some sort of bug in 1.03 and earlier firmware that is fixed in 1.04 and 1.05, but there is some sort of related problem percipitated by Panther that is affecting 911 based drives.

I've been following the entire thread at the Apple Discussion Forums (over 300 messages at this point), and there are several people who sound like they know what they're doing and have had 911-based FW400 drives eaten when restarting with Panther. The folks who run MacFixIt are also saying that they lost a FW400 drive (NOT 922-based) to apparently the same thing in-house, and I don't think they're the sort to jump to incorrect conclusions.

Now, there are always several cases of people who loose drives after an upgrade to glitches or preexisting directory corrption brought to the fore, and there are several reports of this sort buried in among the discussions on this topic.

That said, there is some issue or combination of issues that are causing some Firewire drives to be corrupted almost irreparably upon restarting with them attached to a system running Panther. The 922 issue that Oxford is talking about may be the only part of it that is Oxford's "fault", but there still seems to be a very similar issue of some sort with some (less, it would seem) 911-based drives.

The problems occurring with 911-based drives seem to be a lot rarer, and 922 drives may be fixed once the updated firmware is installed, but I'm being very careful with my 911 drives until I hear something more convincing (preferably from a place like MacFixIt).

For what it's worth, I have yet to see a single definite report of this occurring with a non-Oxford-based drive, and I've definitely never seen any reports of problems with iPods (which aren't Oxford based). Considering how common the iPod is, I'd say it's probably safe to assume at least the iPod is safe.

[crap freakboy]

well I'm still confused if I should use it on my Lacie d2 external FW400. Suppose I could continue to 'hotplug' it, ah well. Clear as mud. Hooray for Apple, wonder if this would have been spotted if the seed program hadnt been reduced?

[manu chao]

Just create some more confusion, several harddrive vendors have also put out a firmware update (Silverlining Updater v6.4.8a for LaCie drives) for FW400 drives using the Oxford 911 chipset. This new firmware (v1.38) apparently improves performance, as one reader testifies on MacFixit (Panther report No.7).

Since other harddrive vendors had similiar updates for a range of Oxford 911 (FW400) products, I applied this updater to a LaCie Pocketdrive, even though LaCie mentioned only d2 FW400 drives.

Bad idea, I had three kernel panics in a row, each only a few minutes after a restart, untill I disconnected the drive.

[Edit] Called LaCie, they said it should have worked with the Pocketdrive as well, but apparently something went wrong and should sent it back to the shop where I bought it, so they could check the harddrive. The shop however says, I'm out of warranty and there is nothing they can do.

Called another LaCie division, there they say my drive probably has an Oxford 900 chip, and I screwed it by applying the 911 updater.

[Edit 2] According to comments on a German web page, all these Oxford 911 updates from the different vendors are based on an update from Oxford which was never intended for endusers, with one harddrive vendor (format.de) explicitly calling it a beta version.

http://www.macnews.de/index.php?_mcnpage=8741&mid=69591.658.6889&s=SB5IxXgiCZ

[Makosuke]

Originally posted by crap freakboy
well I'm still confused if I should use it on my Lacie d2 external FW400.Think of it this way; at this point, unless your drive manufacturer releases an updater specifically designed for your drive, do not try to update it. There's a chance using a different firmware might fix something, but unless somebody does some more extensive testing you're more likey to break things than fix something.

Keep in mind that the Oxford chipsets are programmable (for example, to add support for big drives), and any given vendor might've added some fancy firmware tweaks to the bridge board. If you use generic firmware, at best you'll eliminate those tweaks, and at worst you'll render the bridge board nonfunctional (has already happened to a couple daring souls).

So far, there are updaters from pretty much every major 922 vendor available, but few if any updaters for any 911-based enclosures. I'm not messing with mine unless the manufacturer releases one, that's for sure.

(Note also that if it turns out the 911 problems are also related to some specific firmware version or vendor-specific tweak, then drives from some manufacturers may not need any updating to work fine--we'll see. One expects that in any case Apple will eventually patch the OS to protect even non-updated drives.)

[kangaroo]

Originally posted by StudioGuy
> ... At least, this is what I do with Jag, and <knock-knock> never a problem yet. Waiting on Digi to go to Panther.....

What is Digi? :confused:

[orion123]

Originally posted by crap freakboy
well I'm still confused if I should use it on my Lacie d2 external FW400. Suppose I could continue to 'hotplug' it, ah well. Clear as mud. Hooray for Apple, wonder if this would have been spotted if the seed program hadnt been reduced?

I've got the same drive as you. Download the Silverlining update from Lacie and run it. It will update your drive to 1.38, the most recent firmware for 911 chipsets. Some older firmware for 911's might have had trouble with Panther but Lacie has officially stated that 1.38 will work with Panther, as will 1.05 if you have a 922 chipset.

[StudioGuy]

>> Waiting on Digi to go to Panther.....

> What is Digi?

Oops - sorry -- that's DigiDesign, the vendor for ProTools - digital audio recording.

[q1232]

Originally posted by Fofer
I have direct confirmation from a Mac tech who has now lost THREE FireWire drives that were connected to Panther systems.

Each drive was in a *FW 400* enclosure.

Now what, Apple?

Just last night I lost my second Maxtor drive in a Mercury Elite Firewire 400 case. Before Panther I never had a problem with the case using several different drives. Now in the matter of 2 days I have lost 2 drives. They don't even show up at all when I plug everything in. Time to troubleshoot at the Apple store.:confused:

[daveL]

Originally posted by q1232
Just last night I lost my second Maxtor drive in a Mercury Elite Firewire 400 case. Before Panther I never had a problem with the case using several different drives. Now in the matter of 2 days I have lost 2 drives. They don't even show up at all when I plug everything in. Time to troubleshoot at the Apple store.:confused:
Hmmm ... I have the same enclosure, different drive (Deskstar 120G/7200 RPM) and haven't had a hitch with Jag or Panther, and I've been doing *lots* of reboots. Actually, I have Yellowdog Linux on my TiBook internal drive and boot OS X exclusively off the FW400 drive. Maybe I've just been lucky. Since I'm using the FW drive as my boot device, I don't have the option of ejecting it before shutdown/reboot.

I've looked around the OWC and LaCie sites, and they are still reporting no known problems with the 911-based enclosure and Panther. There seems to be just enough conflicting information to make you worry, though.

[jxyama]

ok, i'm getting a little paranoid... i just clean installed panther last night after cloning my old jaguar on my 40 GB FW400 disk. it would be catastrophic to lose info on my FWHD...

i have opened up my enclosure and found out it's Oxford 911. does anyone else have absolutely reputable information that 911-based HD's can be doomed by panther?

also, my disk is made by Adtec, a japanese company. i bought this disk in japan. it's not very clear what version of firmware this one is running. the closest i see in the apple system profiler is "Unit SW Version: 10483." (See image on next post.)

could someone else check their FW400 HDs to see what kind of information they see on the system profiler? thanks.

[jxyama]

image:

[daveL]

Originally posted by jxyama
ok, i'm getting a little paranoid... i just clean installed panther last night after cloning my old jaguar on my 40 GB FW400 disk. it would be catastrophic to lose info on my FWHD...

i have opened up my enclosure and found out it's Oxford 911. does anyone else have absolutely reputable information that 911-based HD's can be doomed by panther?

also, my disk is made by Adtec, a japanese company. i bought this disk in japan. it's not very clear what version of firmware this one is running. the closest i see in the apple system profiler is "Unit SW Version: 10483." (See image on next post.)

could someone else check their FW400 HDs to see what kind of information they see on the system profiler? thanks.
Just to clarify, the firmware revs being discussed are for the Oxford 911 and 922 ide/fw/usb2 bridge chips, not the actual hard drive (ide/ata).

[jxyama]

yeah, sorry, it was the bridge chip inside the enclosure that was labeled as Oxford 911... not the 2.5" HD itself.

[q1232]

Originally posted by q1232
Just last night I lost my second Maxtor drive in a Mercury Elite Firewire 400 case. Before Panther I never had a problem with the case using several different drives. Now in the matter of 2 days I have lost 2 drives. They don't even show up at all when I plug everything in. Time to troubleshoot at the Apple store.:confused:

Looks like it wasn't Panther. It turns out that the drive was not getting enough power from the power strip. I was able to successfully reproduce the problem numerous times and simply by plugging it into a different outlet fixed all problems. :D

[daveL]

Originally posted by q1232
Looks like it wasn't Panther. It turns out that the drive was not getting enough power from the power strip. I was able to successfully reproduce the problem numerous times and simply by plugging it into a different outlet fixed all problems. :D
Good to hear!

Over on Hardmac they're saying you either get bit early in the game or you're OK. So, if you've rebooted a couple times and haven't experienced any problems, there's evidence to indicate you won't have any problems.

[Doctor Q]

According to Mike Mihalik at LaCie, between Jaguar and Panther Apple changed the sequence of commands used to communicate with hard drives. He said whether or not you run into problems also depends on the drive mechanism and how long it takes to spin down or disconnect from the FireWire bus. This is from a MacCentral article (http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/2003/11/05/firewireissue/).

[Fofer]

Originally posted by daveL
Good to hear!

Over on Hardmac they're saying you either get bit early in the game or you're OK. So, if you've rebooted a couple times and haven't experienced any problems, there's evidence to indicate you won't have any problems.

That's not what this guy said, from the same MacCentral article linked above...

"I upgraded to Panther on the day of release and the FireWire drive worked without a problem for the first two days, then I started getting an error message," said Davidhazy.

This is some scary stuff. I've got thousands of users waiting for Apple to make it safe for them to simply PLUG IN their hard drives, with years of data on them... and Apple's staying mum.

Will we ever feel safe again?

[jxyama]

Originally posted by Fofer
This is some scary stuff. I've got thousands of users waiting for Apple to make it safe for them to simply PLUG IN their hard drives, with years of data on them... and Apple's staying mum.


i agree, this is not like a new product launch. apple NEEDS to keep everyone informed the best they can as things get uncovered. it is not enough to internally investigate and publish a solution when it's found.

i am glad they were swift with FW800 problem, but users need to be informed. it's a lot better than reading FUD-ish information from various places. apple should send out a warning that FW400 may also be susceptible and list the potential conditions under which drives could be lost NOW.

until then, i guess we need to be careful to eject the drive before restarting panther...

[///M Power]

Whenever I try to open the Lacie updater on my PowerMac G5 it just starts to open the crashes. The Dock starts to make room for the new app, but right away it crashes.

I have redownload the update and I have tried restarting and all the same results.

Very annoying!

Please help!

Thanks!

[sober]

any idea how i can check the version number of my firewire bridge?

i have a new laptop with 10.3 installed. the external drive worked great and then started to get slow. (i might have done a restart with the drive attached...) it was too slow to play video, so i upgraded to 10.3.1. now the drive isn't recognized at all.

trying not to panic, but i don't know how what to do. the patches from lacie don't seem to work. (it just says that there are no valid drives detected. i guess my d2 drive is only 400 not an 800, but don't know how to check.)

if the drive isn't recognized by os x, can i rescue the data off it?

any suggestions are appreciated...

thanks.