some guy's don't get it...

[troymcclure]

first of all this should not be taken as an insult but as something some guys may be think about.

First of all I don't prfer macs or pcs both have their advantages and disadvantages

i've been browsing this forum for a while and I always hear people talking about "crappy unstable pcs and windows xp" many people here compare macs with cheap supermarket pc's or entry level dell machines which are not much better.

right now I only use PC at home, but I have worked with macs and I know people who use them.

I have a custum bulit P IV with windows xp and the machine has not ever crashed a single time. sure sometimes software can hang or crash (no major software crashed so far, only shareware stuff or sometimes the internet explorer)

the machine is quiet, fast and stable. and the greatest thing is: it's way cheaper than the cheapest desktop mac (excluding the non-expandable emac series)

One thing I must admit: It doesn't look a beautiful as a mac

you can't compare bananas with apples ;-) if you compare a mac with a pc use a well configured systems to be fair. if you do that the current facts are, that pcs are ahead when it comes to the price-performance-ratio. I'm going to buy a 12" inch powerbook soon,but not for it's speed but for its compatibility and a compareable pc notebook would be 200€ more expensive. some pc guys do these wrong comparisons too, when they say "your powerbook is too expensive, you can get a pc notebook for 999,-€" theay are comparing a cheap heavy plastic thing to a small lightweight alubook....that's wrong as well....so if you compare, do it right. maybe we would have less mac vs. pc wars then... regrards

[patrick0brien]

-troymcclure

Agreed.

There are opinions - some blind - on either side of any issue.

Blind faith, is blinding.

[dave1234]

I use only Macs, but adament (sp?) Mac user's who always bash Windows, for being unstable, and so easily succeptible to crashes
really are basing their oppinion of Windows machines that are bought at a store, such as Best Buy, or Circuit City.

All of my friends who use Windows machines, have built there own , and they have had little to no problems with them, and the problems they had were easily fixed, costed them little time, and money.

[howard]

i agree too

and i never have bashed pc's on this forum...at least i don't think so...

i use a mac cause i like it better thats it, and if someone likes a pc better, great. i don't really care. the topics i'd rather discuss are things specifically about pc. or specifically about macs. not which is better or worse.

i opened a thread about building my own gaming pc and i was happy that there were no posts that went..."what? you want to buy a pc? duh your stupid macs a better.."

[troymcclure]

I've been browsing many mac forums in the last time for getting information about the 12" powerbook...retrospectively I must admit that I am not absolutely sure if the majority of these posts were from the macrumors board or from anywhere else. maybe some post were just "glueing" in my head... some mac people I met (in real life) were very religious about thier preference. Their arguments were just like "yeah it's better and M$ sucks" or "your pc looks ugly"... hearing and reading that all the time jussed pissed me off...One time I had a good laugh, when I was working in a pro tools studio (for those who don't know it's the rolls royce of audio recording system) with a g4 quicksilver and thang thing crashed several time, while my native home studio that costs about 150.000€ less doesn't crash...but I still liked the g4 for it's beautiful case :D by the way it was an os 9 machine os x would probably have been better...

[jxyama]

your post is well intended and i agree with you and other posters.

that said, countering

"always crashing PCs"

with

"i have such-and-such PC and it has never crashed on me"

is equally silly.

one machine and one personal experience doesn't define anything about the stability of the system.

of course, it's silly these days to blindly cover all PCs and say they "crash all the time," which was the original point of your post.

the choice word i like to use these days is that X is smoother and more robust than XP/2000. XP/2000 don't crash but they just feel clunky to me...

[rt_brained]

The point is, like it or not, you have to pick a side. It's foolish to think that anyone is so hell-bent on performance that they're willing to leap from one platform to the next with no regard to the time, effort or money needed to keep pace.

I think the vast majority of people who argue pure performance numbers are more interested in gaming than real work.

[7on]

Yeah, for the most part 2000/Xp don't crash as often as older Windows versions, but it's a lot less compatible than a Mac with certain peripherals. I don't know, I've had plenty of people who forget their driver CDs and resulted in me having to scour the internet for multiple days for drivers. I know this is because of the numerous hardware configurations that XP/2000 can run on, but still, I'd rather pay a little extra for this connivence. Not to mention the XP/2000 machines' network neighborhood is a little flaky here on campus. I don't know why, it just is. I had to show someone the other day how to pull up her shared drive on a mac because the Windows ones weren't working for networking. Oh well, thus is the price you face. I am considering swiping one of my mom's PCs during Thanksgiving and buying a wireless card to use as a server/base-station type of thing. Plus you can password protect Windows shared printers, I haven't figured out how to make my printer password protected on my Mac. Still, PC or Mac it's just your priorities nowadays. I still suggest PCs to people if they really want to play a lot of games or need some-sort of ability not available on the Mac (I.E. MSN messenger video conf) but if you and to do anything that doesn't require a PC, I'd bring up the idea of a Mac. Of course I always crack a smile when some bigot PC user on my floor needs my help fixing their computer.

[troymcclure]

Originally posted by rt_brained
I think the vast majority of people who argue pure performance numbers are more interested in gaming than real work.

probably manyof them but another scenario where you need high performance is native audio and video processing and editing. and there I'm quite satisfied with my pc, because a similar performing mac (g5) would cost 1000 euros more...

[cr2sh]

When I boot my Dell Laptop there's an option before the splash screen... To boot into "Windows 2000 Professional" or boot into the "Windows 2000 recovery console"... Now, I'm not an expert or anything... but, when there's two options.. to run an OS, or fix files from last time you ran an OS... I don't want to use that OS!

You can build 'em cheap, you can tweak and modify... but you can't trust 'em. :)

[sketchy]

Originally posted by dave1234
I use only Macs, but adament (sp?) Mac user's who always bash Windows, for being unstable, and so easily succeptible to crashes
really are basing their oppinion of Windows machines that are bought at a store, such as Best Buy, or Circuit City.

All of my friends who use Windows machines, have built there own , and they have had little to no problems with them, and the problems they had were easily fixed, costed them little time, and money.

I think it is a valid comparison. How many mac users custom bild their machines.. we don't -- because we don't need to. they work out of the box, most PC users don't build their own machines either. they buy them at circuit city and best buy.

when I come to work I have a generic compaq EVO, P4, etc. I really am not very happy with it. It has 512K ram and has trouble with the operating system sometimes. (XP) It is not custom built. Granted -- XP is much better then 9x/NT, buut I still prefer my Mac. The only times I have to reboot it is when I run a system update or install software that requires it. It has gone months without rebooting, no memory problems, no crashing.

My PC can't go more then 3 days before it gives up

You might say that computers should be rebooted more often. I say -- why, I don't have to do it on my mac.

My last job
I had a mac and PC on a ups and the mac was up for 4 months without a reboot. PC crashed all the time (dual xeon from dell).
worked better with one processor

[troymcclure]

the main problem is: apple is one company that builds computers capable of running mac os. there are no others...

you can build and configure pc's from parts that are made by many many manufacturers. there's is much crap on the market.

the hardest thing is to find out which components match und run stable and fast together. if you know what you do you can surly build a computer that is as fast ( or even faster) and as stable as a mac but costs about half the price of a comparble mac. of course you can't build a pc that is as beautiful as a mac (except if you put a pc in a macs case). and yes, that will be a machine you can trust ;)

I have configures pcs for many friends and they were always satisfied. if someone who doesn't have a clue about configuration want's a computer and doesn't know someone who will configure it for him I would say get a mac. If someone want's a machine that will do the same work for less money and has someone who configures it for him, I would say: get a pc. if money wouldn't count I would buy a mac, because they look better and I'm a fan of apple's design.

I wonder why apple has no competively priced desktops, because their notebooks' prices can compete with pcs...

[patrick0brien]

Originally posted by troymcclure
I wonder why apple has no competively priced desktops, because their notebooks' prices can compete with pcs...

-troymcclure

They do, from a TCO perspective.

But then, few people think about that.

[edesignuk]

I agree completely. I was first a PC "fanboy", then slowly converted over to a Mac "fanboy", then I started to actually hear the crap that was coming out of my mouth. I use both a Dual G4 PowerMac and a home built P4C system (quality components, no cheap rubbish). Both are rock solid, both are fast. I want, use, and need them both.
It drives me nuts when browsing MR to see blind Mac fanboys bashing PC's, and I try (when I can be bothered) to make an argument for the PC. At the same time when I am browsing my PC forums and see PC fanboys bashing Macs just as blindly, it get on my nerves!

Can't we all just get along? :rolleyes:

[edesignuk]

Originally posted by cr2sh
When I boot my Dell Laptop there's an option before the splash screen... To boot into "Windows 2000 Professional" or boot into the "Windows 2000 recovery console"... Now, I'm not an expert or anything... but, when there's two options.. to run an OS, or fix files from last time you ran an OS... I don't want to use that OS!

You can build 'em cheap, you can tweak and modify... but you can't trust 'em. :)
hmmm...good idea, have a go at Windows because it has provided you with an easily accessible way of recovery should anything major go wrong :rolleyes:

[68k_575]

You guys are right about PC's not crashing "all the time", that's history. But I used to own a Compaq PC, and it would crash about 3-4 times a week. Windows is more stable than it used to be, but the Mac is still more stable than that, thanks to Unix.

[Thirteenva]

Originally posted by edesignuk
Can't we all just get along? :rolleyes:


No.

[edesignuk]

Originally posted by Thirteenva
No.
Fine :rolleyes: :D :p ;)

[troymcclure]

I hope I will experience that stability with my powerbook in a few months.. :D but it won't be more stable than my PC , because I have no stability problems with my PC at all. I hope they will work nicely together...

[Fukui]

Originally posted by howard

i opened a thread about building my own gaming pc and i was happy that there were no posts that went..."what? you want to buy a pc? duh your stupid macs a better.."
You will if you go to spymac! :D

[edesignuk]

Originally posted by Fukui
You will if you go to spymac! :D
ain't that the truth, when compared to Spymac, MR is full of PC "Fanboys" :eek: :D :p

[kanker]

Originally posted by troymcclure
the main problem is: apple is one company that builds computers capable of running mac os. there are no others...

you can build and configure pc's from parts that are made by many many manufacturers. there's is much crap on the market.

the hardest thing is to find out which components match und run stable and fast together. if you know what you do you can surly build a computer that is as fast ( or even faster) and as stable as a mac but costs about half the price of a comparble mac. of course you can't build a pc that is as beautiful as a mac (except if you put a pc in a macs case). and yes, that will be a machine you can trust ;)
Exactly. I have been an Apple user (exclusively) since the ][+, then a Mac Plus, Perfoma 400, etc... to the 12" PB I ordered today :D I enjoy the fact that I can expect my system to perform the way I expect it to since the same vendor that writes the OS specs the processors, etc... How can you expect PC's to be as stable as a Mac when hundreds of vendors have their own version of a PC, and then M$ is supposed to write an OS that will take all of that into acoount? The people who buy PC's made by quality vendors understand this, and are the ones who generally have very stable machines. I absolutely love my Macs, but could see myself owning a PC as a compliment to my Macs if the need arose. I must admit though that I would feel like I'm in a bit over my head, as I have used Apples for over 20 years, but I shouldn't exclude the possibility.

[5300cs]

Originally posted by Thirteenva
No.

I agree; I don't want to hear how wonderful XP is. I'm perfectly satisfied with my 15+ Macs :D

[MattG]

Here's my view on things.

If you are somewhat experienced with computers and know how to properly build/maintain a Windows based PC, it is entirely possible that you may never have problems with it crashing or freezing and may have a totally enjoyable experience. I've built several very nice PCs (including my parents' PCs which I maintain for them), and they never have the problems that people describe on these boards. That's due in part to the fact that I've been a Windows user since Windows 3.11, most of the classes I've taken for my CIT major dealt with Microsoft software platforms, plus I'm an MCSA in Windows 2000! Not that you have to be an MCSA to use Windows mind you, however, the average computer user (read: novice) doesn't know how to (or that they should):

a. keep their computer clean
b. run a defrag every once in a while
c. not open every pop-up/spam/attachment you receive
d. install patches/updates
...you get the drift...

Windows isn't built in a way that a novice can install it, use it forever and never have a problem with it. It needs to be "maintained." Macs, on the other hand, aren't like that. Yes, while there are certain things you should do every once in a while just to make sure everything is tip-top, chances are (at least compared to a Windows machine) you could never do any type of maintenance and get away with it. This probably doesn't apply to most of the people on this forum (most of whom do a clean install everytime a new major upgrade to the OS comes out), but I'm sure there are a lot of computer users out there who have Macs that they bought several years ago and are still running the original installation of the OS that came with the computer, with NO problems. Never had to reinstall, no software conflicts after adding and removing programs through the years, etc.

Here's a real-life example. We are migrating to Office XP at work--several hundred machines--and it's just been HELL. Some of the computers upgrade successfully. Some of them don't. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason as to why some work and some don't. For the ones that don't, we end up having to uninstall Office 2000 first. Then, once we get it installed, it kills other applications. Now when you open this or that program, it wants you to insert the install disc. It's because with Windows, when you install a program, it doesn't just go into your Program Files folder. No. It goes in your Program Files, your system folder, your registry, .INI files, blah blah blah, so even when you try to uninstall/upgrade a program, there's still remnants of the old program all over the place, just waiting to cause problems. Now, being the only Mac user, my coworkers all make fun of me (the network admin specifically), but every once in a while I'll tell them how something works on a Mac as compared to how it works on a PC, and they kind of give me this look of disbelief. I explain to them, "You know, if these were Macs, all you'd have to do is trash the old Office and drag the new Office to the Applications folder. Boom. Installed." "What do you mean 'you don't have to uninstall it?' What do you mean 'all you have to do is delete the program?'"

It's the differences like that which will always make the Mac platform better than a Windows PC. Microsoft just has this way of over-complicating EVERYTHING, whereas Apple makes it easy enough for a 6-year old to understand, while still making it professional grade/crashproof/feature-rich enough for the above-average user.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to bed :)

[patrick0brien]

Originally posted by MattG
"What do you mean 'you don't have to uninstall it?' What do you mean 'all you have to do is delete the program?"

-MattG

I love it when I get responses like this. I already have an answer prepared:

Yes.

That gets a few stares.

[Thirteenva]

Originally posted by 5300cs
I agree; I don't want to hear how wonderful XP is. I'm perfectly satisfied with my 15+ Macs :D


AMEN!

[cubist]

Hey Troy, Apple Store has refurb 12" for $1199.

[troymcclure]

@cubist
thanks but my savings are 850€ so far and the german refurb store is only open on wednesdays...I think there are no 1GHz 12" powerbooks so far. I don't want the old one, because the new one is faster and has usb 2.0 and DVI...

[Thirteenva]

Originally posted by troymcclure
I hope I will experience that stability with my powerbook in a few months.. :D but it won't be more stable than my PC , because I have no stability problems with my PC at all. I hope they will work nicely together...

I'm a mac zealot but i'll go easy on you troymcclure because of the simpsons reference..... :D

I find the title of your post ironic. Why? Well because your saying how people just dont get that the PC can be stable also.... HOWEVER... your under the illusion that the primary pull to the mac os is because of stability. A Mac is an experience truly different than that of a PC. It can not be summed up merely with buzz words such as "stability" and "usability". To own a mac is to again find joy in using a computer in day to day life. Probably the same joy you felt when first finishing up your XP box. Only for mac users this spans the life of our computer.

When windows users ask why we like our macs the look for us to say "stability" and "usability" only so they can pick their fight. I say, go buy one, you may be surprised how it grows on you. I used a pc for years before switching over 2 years ago. I haven't looked back since.

[jayscheuerle]

I'd be happy to give a Wintel box a shot at replacing my aging beige minitower if it wasn't for one thing–software costs. As a designer, illustrator and animator, my base set of apps includes Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, Quark, Electric Image, After Effects ... not to mention plug-ins, the total of which would cost far more than any Mac available.

XP seems fine for those that are used to it, and I'm sure I'd be comfortable in a couple months time, but right now that direction would be like starting over.

I'm pretty much stuck with Apple because of software investments.

[patrick0brien]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
I'm pretty much stuck with Apple because of software investments.

-jayscheuerle

And this, is one off the reasons why switching in either direction isn't as easy, or cheap, as Apple likes to market.

[agreenster]

Just my 2 cents for poops and giggles...

I have a 1ghZ tiBook (my second, the first was the 550) at home and a dual 2gHz Xeon Compaq Evo W6000 workstation at work. Both were out of the box (well, I installed the second processor on the workstation, but thats no biggie) and both run great. The Xeon runs XP, and Ive never ever gotten a virus, or had any crashes. Its a powerouse for 3D animation, and I love it.

The tiBook is fun to use, does everything I ask of it (including animation with Maya) and rarely skips a beat. For my next computer, Im considering the (tba) dual 2.5 gHz G5.

Point is, if you know what you are doing, maintain your computers, you can easily use and love both. I never download anything suspicious, or open any email attachments from people I dont know.

One other thing is this: People may bash XP and say how OSX is so much better, but sometimes I must say that XP has some major user-advantages. The taskbar is great, I think superior to the Dock. Ever try to close a slew of pop-ups in OSX? You have to actually click the close button on the window instead of right clicking the taskbar and hitting close. Very convenient. Also, Windows XP is snappy. And I mean SNAPPY like OS9 was. OSX is still a bit too sluggish for me (but Im using Jag, not Panther, but still. XP is older than Panther) Also, the browser-based navigation in XP is awesome. No clicking through side-scrolling menus for me, thank you. Just browse through your files and change directories just by typing in the address bar. Sometimes in OSX Ill have 4 windows open and forget what some of them are. Not in XP, the whole address is displayed on the top of the wondow. Plus, the save menu actually sorts by date modified! Hot damn! And you can change file names in the save menu, or even move files around. Not so in OSX.

Okay, so that was a bit anal, I know, but I must agree that it isnt always painfully obvious to Windows users WHY OSX is so much better. Again, Im an advocate and user for both, but zealousness on either side is silly, and stupid.

EDIT

Okay, another thing I was thinking about is this: I think the reason why Mac user can be so zealotous (word?) sometimes is because not-so-many years ago Apple was in danger of going under. BEfore SJ made his return, Apple almost didnt exist (think 97-98) So, now that Apple has made a comeback, people are starving to keep them afloat, thinking being a zealot will help the cause. I think we'll see less of this if Apple gains a few market share points.

I too, do not want to see Apple flounder again. I think its great to have several competing companies creating great OSes and hardware types. It keeps the competition on their toes, and the consumer always wins out. I think Apple is probably (and will be regarded as) one of the coolest and most innovative companies in this age, and I would hate to see them fall apart.

So support Apple, but dont make stupid Windows/Intel comments because them being in existance is what has helped Apple become what it is today.

[1macker1]

I use both XP and OSX.

I think OSX is better from home use, and I prefer to use windows at work. That being said, XP crashes like twice a week, but i think it's the celeron processor **ignores the laughs** that's being used.

Most of the problems people see in their OS comes from 3rd partly applications. That's why XP has so many problems.

[patrick0brien]

Originally posted by agreenster
I think the reason why Mac user can be so zealotous (word?) sometimes is because not-so-many years ago Apple was in danger of going under. BEfore SJ made his return, Apple almost didnt exist (think 97-98)

-agreenster

Actually the Cult of Mac had existed long before the chokepoint of 1997. Actually, I believe that the cult was beginning to take shape in the old Apple ][ days. The introduction of the Macintosh in 1984 essentially inaugurated it.

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by agreenster
...
Ever try to close a slew of pop-ups in OSX? You have to actually click the close button on the window instead of right clicking the taskbar and hitting close. Very convenient.
...

Command + option + W

Even more convenient. ;)

[sketchy]

Originally posted by patrick0brien
-agreenster

Actually the Cult of Mac had existed long before the chokepoint of 1997. Actually, I believe that the cult was beginning to take shape in the old Apple ][ days. The introduction of the Macintosh in 1984 essentially inaugurated it.

I agree with that. I feel the current day Mac evangelist came from Guy's list, and others like it, in the mid 90's. When Apple was wiped from retail stores (at least -- not booted up) Sales men would steer users from Mac's and PC users were ridiculing mac users. And the mainstream press was killing apple.

Does anyone remember the evangelist?

I was an active letter writing, Win hating (win 95 time - I had the right)(tech support), PC techie, who loved the Mac platform. Much that hit the media was lies, the list drew in rabid mac fans. Some knowledgeable, some not. the concept was to break down the lies with facts.

My overcloking friends got their 'facts' from PC Mags and on the net, many fabricated. We would back it up with metrics, facts, and knowledge of the PC platform. We researched our topics and responded with fact. With newspapers it worked pretty well.

I can build a PC, I've made some for work. I have serviced almost every mac version ever made. Most PC users do not know anything about Mac's but bash them anyway. I bring up flaws with the operating system, XP is not solid - security issues, open code, insecure machine after a base install. These are big issues. You should not have to pass a security test before you buy a Computer -- Mac or PC. Old Win Os's were poorly written and drivers form manufacturers were poorly written. If you bundle a printer with a computer make sure the drivers work.

The security holes in XP were programmed in, it does not have to do with multiple hardware iterations, just poor software. And comparing the look and feel of Win to Mac is silly -- they have been copying the Mac os for a while. Longhorn has many OSX like features in it, As does XP.

Dave ----
here's an old quote:

Final Message

In the past two years Apple has experienced a stunning turnaround. This is due to many things including the steadfast loyalty of Apple's customers--and EvangeListas are the most steadfast of the steadfast.

The original purpose of EvangeList was to counteract the negative news about Apple and Macintosh, and I believe that EvangeList has served its purpose--fantastically, as a matter of fact. So after discussing what we should do with EvangeList with the folks at Apple, we've decided to retire the list.

Guy Kawasaki

[sketchy]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU
Command + option + W

Even more convenient. ;)

popups.. what are they.
I have not seen a popup since safari.

<sarcasm>
you mean microsoft has not upgraded its browser to block popups.. like all other browsers on the market?
</sarcasm>

[leet1]

Originally posted by sketchy
<sarcasm>
you mean microsoft has not upgraded its browser to block popups.. like all other browsers on the market?
</sarcasm>

Easily solved and awsome add-on:

www.google.com

use the google bar :D

[aftk2]

Originally posted by Thirteenva
To own a mac is to again find joy in using a computer in day to day life.

This is a wonderful way to sum it up. I remember debating about Apple on Slashdot awhile ago, and the last statement in the debate was something like:

A lot of Windows users (and anti-Mac people in general) view computers and Windows as a necessary evil. They need to get something done, and they have to put up with the operating system to do it. They get their work done or games played in spite of it. A Macintosh is different. Here, we're using a computer because we enjoy it, and getting work done to boot! Using a computer does not have to be a chore. That idea is incredibly foreign to a lot of people.

It's been this way for a long time. I was on the Evangelist in the mid-90s after using a Performa 635CD (my parents') and my Quadra 700 (with a bitchin' 17in Apple display.) You know what? I can still remember the model names and numbers of the freaking computers! How's that for devotion?

I think this is an important point that gets lost with all the praise garnered by OS X. Yes, OS 9 looks antiquated by comparison (I still run it on my PowerMac G4/400 Yikes, however) but in its day System 7 - 9 was tops. Windows and UNIX converts may scoff, but long before OS X there were still rabid Mac fanatics.

Given the choice between OS 9.2.2 and Windows XP, I'd still rather use the Mac. Probably crazy, I know...but I've got my Windows notebook on the desk in front of me, just two years old, running Windows 2000...and I don't think I've ever known the model number.
:cool:

[agreenster]

Originally posted by sketchy
popups.. what are they.
I have not seen a popup since safari.


Really? I use Safari everyday and I still get popups??

:confused:

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by agreenster
Really? I use Safari everyday and I still get popups??

:confused:

Command K (Block Pop-up Windows), Under "Safari" pulldown.

[QCassidy352]

There's nothing wrong with (modern) PCs. Macs are just more enjoyable to use, IMO. And a mac does everything I need, so why would I have a PC also?

[tomf87]

Originally posted by leet1
Easily solved and awsome add-on:

www.google.com

use the google bar :D

I use it too but it would be nice just to integrate it into the browser. That's just laziness on Microsoft's part.

Also, I've found the google toolbar to mess up some dhtml pages too but I keep it anyway.

[toughboy]

Originally posted by Thirteenva
No.

WHY NOT?!

Fighting, arguing looses energy and resource...
I'm a dual-platform user, who has a PC Desktop, which works somehow fine, and an amazing 12"PB's user.. and I'm really fine with all my mac fans friends and PC fan friends..

If we wouldnt fight and diverse this much, maybe PCs could at lease try to reach a design and innovative perspective like macs and MAYBE OUR MACS COULD RUN MORE GAMES AND USEFUL PROGRAMS WHICH ARE PC-COMPETABLE?!

Huh?!...

[5300cs]

Originally posted by toughboy
WHY NOT?!

'cause I don't wanna be friends with any pc users :p :D

Actually, there are Mac users that I wouldn't want to be friends with either. I've met some real jerks; everything is a competition with them to see who has the most/better hardware :rolleyes:

I had pc friends in the past, but when I switched, they all pissed me off by making fun of me all the time.

I have a lot of Linux friends- now there's the place to be. Really cool ppl :) Especially the Slackware/Debian ppl, and the BSD ppl too.

[toughboy]

Originally posted by 5300cs
'cause I don't wanna be friends with any pc users :p :D


:) I already have a lot of PC user friends, what am I gonna do! :P..

And I dream to show them how wonderful my PB works, how nice is OSX, and when we plug our computers together to play games at night, I wanna show them how nice my white apple glows at the back of my PB ;)

And, I dream to play Grand Theft Auto (GTA) or Need for Speed or many other games with them too.. VPC just doesnt work for game stuff.. :(

now, I'm asking again, why shall we fight and argue with eachother.. to have less-usable systems?!

[Thirteenva]

Originally posted by toughboy

If we wouldnt fight and diverse this much, maybe PCs could at lease try to reach a design and innovative perspective like macs and MAYBE OUR MACS COULD RUN MORE GAMES AND USEFUL PROGRAMS WHICH ARE PC-COMPETABLE?!

Huh?!...


I had no idea i was causing such a huge problem. :rolleyes:

[5300cs]

Originally posted by Thirteenva
I had no idea i was causing such a huge problem. :rolleyes:

You are. Stop being so selfish :D

Back in the Old Days, when I was still using windows, I remember being only somewhat excited when a new version of windows came out.

When talking to friends, the first question was almost invariably "So is it more stable? Does it crash less often?". I've noticed since coming to OS X, when new versions come out, it's more like "What new toys did they put in it?" (Or "Is it faster now?:rolleyes: )

All the games I personally want to play are already on the Mac, except Virtual Pool :( and MAME runs on Macs- what more could you want? :D

When I'm with my friends, the conversation almost always turns to computers, and if it's a windows person,,,, well, there isn't much to talk about.

[Sheebahawk]

Theres a reason people badmouth PC's, espeially me, and thats because, Windows PC's Suck. (please bear with my spelling, my mac ally keyboard is sucking in its ow right)

I learned the alphabet playing a game with a singing penguin on an Apple IIe, in 1985 or so. I've been an evangelist since. in all I can remember, I've only had two serious frustrations using apple computers, and both were fixed with norton software. (pre OSX days) I complain about windows, because windows is terrible, cluttered, UGLY, (mac osx is cartoonish, but it doesn't hurt my eyes or sense of taste) and 99.9999% of complaints I hear about computers, from friends, professors, co-workers, etc, comes from using windows, and usually other microsoft software. Thats not because of marketshare, it is because windows is by far an inferior system. I've used XP, and for me, its a CHORE. I agree, I thought the taskbar was very useful, until I saw the Dock in OSX. Now with exposé, it works even more wonderfully.

Pc's are useable. They can get the job done, DESPITE the OS but I would never want to use one under any circumstance, (well I use my dads computer to see what games I'm missing out on and even thats a pain). OSX is simple to use, and it works. Windows is better than it used to be, but its still no where near the alternatives, and it seems to me, to become easier to use, the operating system (and its interface) has become more complex. Sure it was snappy, when my dad first got his computer, but it slows down by the day. I would still rather use OS9 than XP

With OSX, I know exactly whats files are on my computer, I know where they are, I know how muh room each of them takes on my harddrive. Actually I've always known this on a Mac. I know where each file is, I know what each file does. I have trouble finding certain specific files on my dad's cornacopia of mickey mouse vomit, that is XP. I find windows to be functional at best, which is a shame, because with the resources microsoft has, if they really cared about improving the usability of the system, it would have surpassed Apple's operating system technology a long time ago. I think the reason a lot of Mac users get pissed at windows trumpetblowers, is because they spent their money in a company they can believe in, where windows only profits a ompany that copies a company you an believe in. The bigotry goes both ways, and if I slander a platform, I either do it in self defense, or because I strongly believe in the superiority of the one I use. Macs aren't just computers, they are lifestyle enhancing, enablers. I an go on and on but I won't but I do believe that the world would be a much better place if everyone was using a Mac. But I also believe in diversity, so maybe Macs are such great machine's because of Apple's status as 'the little guy'

[LethalWolfe]

I basically agree w/the tone of this thread. In fact my first post at Macrumors was a "why can't we all get along" thread too.

I've got a nearly 3yr old, home built PIII 800 running Win2k that stays up for months on end. The most common reason for shutdown/restart is installing new hard/software. I think a properly built DIY machine can be very stable as long as you research your parts, but most off the shelf PCs are just accidents waiting to happen. I've found the extra software that comes pre-installed from the factory to be a big cause of PC issues. If you have a Dell or something, wipe the HDD and do a clean install of the OS only and I swear the stability goes up by like a factor of 10.

I ended up being a switcher w/o meaning to. I purchased a Mac because I was tired of editing on my PC and also becaue I wanted FCP. The more I used the Mac the more it grew on me and I found myself using it for "normal" computing tasks even though I had purchased to be my edit workstation. I'm currently saving up for an iBook to replace my Win2k box. Not because my PC is failing me, but I just enjoy working in the Mac environment as much more than Windows. And I'm at a point in my life where I just want my computer to work. I don't have the time or energy to tinker w/it like I did in school.

Here's a great quote from a brand new switcher over at a filmmaking forum I frequent.

Last week I was in update mode, and I was really pondering between 3 things. Either updating my Storm and getting Premiere Pro, getting Avid Xpress DV for the PC, OR bite the bullet and get the Mac. I was leaning heavily towards PP, yet after some research I realized that I would definitly need to update the Storm, yet that wasn't even fully supported, and then I'd need a new videocard, and these drivers and new this and that and I said SCREW THIS! I'm tired of beating my computer into submission and tinkering around with the bitch. I need to spend time editing instead of time trying to get everything compatible. (emphasis mine)

So, I went to the Mac store and talked to the friendly Mac people and walked out of there with a dual G5 2ghz, 1GB Ram, 128 gb hdrive, DVD burner, FCP 4, and 20inch cinema screen monitor. After taking everything out of the box, within a half hour I was set up completely, with FCP installed, checking mail, surfing internet with Safari, using iCal, using iTunes, and browsing around my new toy. I love it! It's so easy to use I don't understand how people can't figure them out.

This is by far the best machine I've ever had. Sure some things are going to take time getting used to, but I love the interface and the way things are organized. The way mac does it just seems to make more sense to me. You were right Lethal!


troymcclure,

Speed isn't the prime consideration when it comes to using a computer for video or audio work. Of course every always wants a faster machine, but up-time is more valuable than speed. There are still a lot of Avid's out there cutting hit TV shows and multimillion dollar movies that are running on 6 year old 9600's. Why? Up time. They might be slow... real, real slow in some cases, but they are damn near bullet proof. The worst feeling in the world is to be up against a dead line, or have a client in the room, and all of a sudden your machine crashes and doesn't want to get back up.

To use a racing analogy, a fast car will get you on the pole, a reliable car will get you in the winners ciricle.

Well, I think I've ranted enough for one night...

Lethal

[troymcclure]

@lethal I agree, but when you do native audio mixing with plugins you need a fast machine and it's possible to build one without sacrificing stability. I remember when I did my first recording with my band 3 years or so ago...It was horrible, crashing every 40 minutes or so, it did't always record audio even if it said so and it was slow. A Pentium II with 300MHz and windows 95. At that time I would never have imagined that I'm sitting here 3 years later with a machine where I can run tons of plugins and do all the stuff without the machine being crashing or behaving strangely...I've built many computer for me and for others through the years blue screens and freezes were always normal and something you have to live with, but the last generation of pentium 4 machines with windows xp have amazed me with their speed and stability

[Nermal]

Originally posted by aftk2
You know what? I can still remember the model names and numbers of the freaking computers! How's that for devotion?

I can remember that my parents bought their first PC on 3/9/92 :D

[Rezet]

Originally posted by troymcclure
first of all this should not be taken as an insult but as something some guys may be think about.

First of all I don't prfer macs or pcs both have their advantages and disadvantages

i've been browsing this forum for a while and I always hear people talking about "crappy unstable pcs and windows xp" many people here compare macs with cheap supermarket pc's or entry level dell machines which are not much better.

right now I only use PC at home, but I have worked with macs and I know people who use them.

I have a custum bulit P IV with windows xp and the machine has not ever crashed a single time. sure sometimes software can hang or crash (no major software crashed so far, only shareware stuff or sometimes the internet explorer)

the machine is quiet, fast and stable. and the greatest thing is: it's way cheaper than the cheapest desktop mac (excluding the non-expandable emac series)

One thing I must admit: It doesn't look a beautiful as a mac

you can't compare bananas with apples ;-) if you compare a mac with a pc use a well configured systems to be fair. if you do that the current facts are, that pcs are ahead when it comes to the price-performance-ratio. I'm going to buy a 12" inch powerbook soon,but not for it's speed but for its compatibility and a compareable pc notebook would be 200€ more expensive. some pc guys do these wrong comparisons too, when they say "your powerbook is too expensive, you can get a pc notebook for 999,-€" theay are comparing a cheap heavy plastic thing to a small lightweight alubook....that's wrong as well....so if you compare, do it right. maybe we would have less mac vs. pc wars then... regrards

PCs are faster. PCs are cheaper. WINDOWS is less stable than OSX. PCs have good library of viruses. PCs often sell junk t people. SOFTWARE PIRACY is business on PCs.
Billy is greedy. WINDOWS looks like crap.

Those are my opinions. They are beased on my experience. I have a PC and a Mac. I worked with PCs for 10 years and this is my second Mac. So there....

Now explain the point of your thread? You wanted to show that we have Mac Zealots here? Sure we do. You might wanna visit athlonzone and see how many PC zealots hang out there. This site is more or less fair and balanced. Something you can't say about PC sites.

[leet1]

Originally posted by Rezet
WINDOWS looks like crap.


One word: Themes ;)

[Thirteenva]

Originally posted by leet1
One word: Themes ;)

TWO WORDS: WHY BOTHER!

After all its still windows...why polish a turd?

[leet1]

Originally posted by Thirteenva
TWO WORDS: WHY BOTHER!

After all its still windows...why polish a turd?


Because this turd happens to work wonders?

[Thirteenva]

Originally posted by leet1
Because this turd happens to work wonders?

Yet still a turd

[leet1]

Originally posted by Thirteenva
Yet still a turd

To you maybe ;)

[Thirteenva]

Originally posted by leet1
To you maybe ;)


checkmate
well played. :)

[beefcake]

When I work up some cash, I'm likely going to put together a windows box. I love my Powerbook, definitely, but the one thing Macs lack that I just can't get along without: Half-life. Oh how I miss Day of Defeat.

[troymcclure]

the athlon-maniacs yes... :D they are quite the same as those mac-fanatics. I could name several reasons, why I would not recomment amd athlons (don't know about the new opteron and fx series)... these guys still live off from the day, when intels p4 hab performance problems and the thunderbird was crushing the p4 in price and performance...but those days are long ago... and once again windows xp is stable. It won't be stable with crappy hardware and drivers, but if you use branded stuff it is stable. I don't really like microsoft but I must admit that xp ist first stable AND userfriendly os they made. if you dont like the look, you can customize it and make it even look like mac os x or even system 7 if you want to :D

...by the way I always thought that bill gates is greedy, but yesterday I read in a magazine that he actually spends twenty-somthing billion $ for charitable donations...that acutally surprised me...

[barkmonster]

This is the kind of rational PC / Mac opinion you don't hear very often. After using XP at work, I can see how the stability issues are an urban myth these days, I can also see that there's a lot of wasted space in XP and I still prefer OS 9 to any current OS as far as interface is concerned.

A friend on mine who's very into bashing macs because he uses a PC at work in a design firm took great delight in pointing out that his PC at work wipes the floor with the 1.8GHz G5 the mac guys have just upgraded to. Absolutely crushes it at running indesign, the redraws are a joke in comparison with the PC.

The old bandwidth argument when P4 vs G4 comparisons showed how dog slow the mac is at most things these days doesn't work when the G5s got 6.4Gb/s of bandwidth!!

What surprised me was that after asking how the PC was configured, it cost over £4000, had dual 3Ghz Xeons, Gbs of RAM and 15,000 RPM Raid drives. If it didn't smoke the G5 it would be as good as a door stop.

It's odd when PC people bash the mac when the comparison is so slanted. It would be like comparing a 2GHz Athlon to a dual 2GHz G5, not fair and not relevant.

[leet1]

Originally posted by barkmonster
It's odd when PC people bash the mac when the comparison is so slanted. It would be like comparing a 2GHz Athlon to a dual 2GHz G5, not fair and not relevant.

Actually right now with the opteron, that comparison would be fair :D

[patrick0brien]

Originally posted by leet1
Actually right now with the opteron, that comparison would be fair :D

-leet1

Not against a dual2 G5.

[SBG88]

I have a 1.8 ghz gateway running xp that is the fastest thing I have ever seen. Everything loads up in a blink of an eye. It is really quite impressive...which is why I am afraid to load any of my programs back on. Just wiped the hd and reinstalled. Once I start I am just on my way to wiping the hd again. God I love my pc.

I'm coming up to my one year anniversary with Apple and really enjoy it.

Reinstalling hd on pc = chore
Reinstalling hd on mac = fun

[FightTheFuture]

if you think wiping harddrives are fun - try doing parallel installations of xp. let some of the system files get misplaced/corrupted and your looking at some hard time in front of that box. xp may be faster then os x. but it is still garbage.

[ethernet76]

The reason why Windows is crap is because of the maintaining aspect.

I can do it, leet1 can do it, and so can probably anyone else that's found this site. However, I knew a girl that was stuck in 16 color 640x480 because she didn't know what a "graphics driver" was. She spent about 3 months that way.

PCs are the better option for families that have someone that can fix things without taking them in to Best Buy when certain dlls go missing. They're cheap. But Macs are for people that just need something that works. Why do familes without PC knowledge get PCs instead of macs? Because the geek at the store is too busy trying to push the 3.2 ghz P4 they'll need to check they're e-mail on a dialup connection, and because most PCs stores don't sell Macs and they'd rather sell them something they don't need from their store instead of telling them to go to an Apple reseller.

I wonder how many households would benefit from having a eMac instead of a PC?

Realistically I think 50% of the population would benefit from Macs and 50% from a PC.

[leet1]

Originally posted by patrick0brien
-leet1

Not against a dual2 G5.


Dual opteron against dual G5 it is. I posted the benchmarks somewhere on here, it was pretty much even/close on everything ;)

[beefcake]

Originally posted by ethernet76
The reason why Windows is crap is because of the maintaining aspect.

I can do it, leet1 can do it, and so can probably anyone else that's found this site. However, I knew a girl that was stuck in 16 color 640x480 because she didn't know what a "graphics driver" was. She spent about 3 months that way.

Realistically I think 50% of the population would benefit from Macs and 50% from a PC.
I agree with this. I had a 1.3 Ghz Dell desktop at home and for two years kept it running beautifully with win2k. Two weeks before I left for college, it got nailed with the Welchia worm. I wiped everything clean, from the bios to the hard drive, updated to SP3, go the security patches, and installed a simple firewall. For the first month I was getting a call every other day about something going wrong with the computer. I finally gave up and paid a friend to go over 3 times and get it running.

All my family needs a computer for its email, word, and instant messenger. Really the only one in the family who needs the extra power and compatibility of a PC, is me, and I'm the only one on a mac.

[patrick0brien]

Originally posted by leet1
Dual opteron against dual G5 it is. I posted the benchmarks somewhere on here, it was pretty much even/close on everything ;)

-leet1

Ah, yes, in that context you are quite correct. I didn't read you were talking about a dual Opteron there.

[7on]

Ugh, I need to save up some money and buy may parents a Mac... I hate everytime I go home I have to "maintain" the family PC. When the PC was mine it ran flawlessly. True I did spend every Saturday maintaining it but still. About 2 weeks ago I went home to my PC, utterly 10% slower than I left it. Now all I get are emails from my Mom describing what is wrong with it. It's a P3 800Mhz so I doubt I could sell it and buy a decent mac with it. Maybe if I get a job this summer I can buy them one. to end my suffering...

[ChrisH3677]

Well... I'd like to disagree. To a certain extent. Yes Windows is getting better, but it still lags behind the Mac.

I switched 3 months ago.

One of my big letdowns after though was how often Mac apps crashed. And then how often they hung and in some cases i've had to do a cold-reboot (hold pwr key for 5 seconds - eg last night my screensaver froze everything ).

I also run VPC (OS W2K). Just like on a real PC, applications crash on it too.

But the I started to notice the real difference between Macs and PCs. It's called robustness.

1) Mac app crashes rarely affect another running app. Windows often does.

2) Hangs in both OSes affect everything

3) When a Mac app crashes, you get a single polite user friendly error message and then start the app again. With windows you usually get a very unfriendly complex error that often keeps coming back and you have to use Task Manager to kill the app. And half the time have to reboot to get things running smooth again.

I've been doing PC computer support for 18 years.

Why do you get crashes on PCs? Driver clash. Memory conflicts. Corrupt files. Too many apps open. Application conflicts. General software bugs, need to defrag, need to run scandisk etc etc etc.

Why do you get crashes on Macs? Well, in my short time, it's either permissions or a general software bug.

I LOVE this repair permissions thing!! It's like a magic wand. It fixes 70%of my problems. A further 25% have been fixed by rebooting. Probably another 4% were dodgy apps and the remaining 1% were "other" such as Reset Safari (when cursor keys were making it crash) or using a 3rd party tool to repair permissions (when DU's Repair Permissions kept crashing)

In PC-land, most techs I know get their fair share of crashes and hangs, and sometimes are more susceptible because we load so much crap on them!

And I don't entirely subscribe to the argument that those who build their own PCs don't have crashes. Those guys keep their PCs finely tuned so they have to do a lot of work keeping them running smoothly. eg keeping drivers up-to-date, apply patches, defragging regularly, scandisk often, reboot daily etc etc.

On my Mac, I've just learnt to reboot at least every 2 days and run Repair permissions once a week (more if I install a few apps or updates.)

Interestingly too, since I've got into this habit, I get heaps less app crashes.

So, sorry, but I do think the Mac is more stable, more robust and importantly, easier to keep running well, and most significantly, easier to resolve problems.

In my short time with Macs I think these things could put support out of business!


thanks

PS We run Dell's throughout here and still have many crashes despite them being the business line which are meant to have higher quality parts throughout and gone through tighter QA.