iPod Is Doomed

[Timek]

Let's see. Currently the iPod can only be used with a Mac with Firewire. And from what I have read in this forum, the people to whom Apple is marketing this "revolutionary" product think it sucks. You have to wonder what kind of research and test marketing Steve and the guys did for this. Even when the iPod is made compatible with a PC it is going to be shelved in Apple section of CompUSA or Circuit City and it will be buried. There is almost no market for it today, and things arent't going to get much better.

I'm not going to discuss the quality of the product. I'm sure it's great. Most Apple products are, but if there is no market it just doesn't matter. When you combine this with the price the analogies to the Cube are scary. Some will buy the iPod. Some will buy a new Mac so they can get an iPod, but if Steve was counting on the iPod to be a breakthrough, he is sadly mistaken.

I love Apple. I love the quality of the hardware and the elegance of the OS, but I'm afraid that the clock is ticking for my favorite computer company. They do need a real breakthrough product soon. I honestly hope Steve and the boys have something else up their sleeves.

[spikey]

im sensing a negative attitude.
I think its pretty kool from what i can tell, but i wont fully judge it till i use one as im a bit worried about sound quality.
Apple couldnt make the iPod compatible or as compatible with the PC because it wouldnt make marketing sense, the iPod is meant to part of Apples "digital hub" not any PC manufacturer. It is meant to be a part of what makes up Apples digital hub.

And the thing up their sleeves i think will be the G5, hopefully some price reductions will come with it. cos that is what scares away alot of PC buyers.

[Timek]

Spikey,

You make some good points, but what you say bolsters my arguement. The iPod, or any other future "breakthrough" digital device, can't just be for the Apple hub. There just isn't the market for it. The market won't support it. Again, the quality, "coolness", or technical aspects of the iPod will not determine its future. The market will determine its future.

The iPod is an expensive niche product in an expensive niche market. I'm not questioning the quality of the product. I'll let others do that. (And from what I'm reading, there seems to be plenty to question.)My point is that Apple needs a product or product line that has a broader appeal. The next time Steve rolls out a "breakthrough" with a resolution in mind, he better do a better job than iPod.

[Foocha]

I think your missing the point here. Apple is the world's only vertically integrated PC manufacturer, producing hardware, operating system and applications. This uniquely positions them to deliver all-in-one solutions. Solutions that take the complexity away by integrating disparate components and combining it all together in a stylish package. Put iTunes, iPod & iBook together and you have the ultimate solution for managing your music collection. The purpose of iPod is to *sell more Macs* not sell MP3 players to Windows users.

I suspect you'll see the price tag come down next year, after Apple has made it's money from the core crowd of Apple early adopters who'll pay anything.

[SPG]

The iPod is just one more small product to increase the "Ooooh! look at that!" factor of the Apple lineup.
The very best MP3 player on the market is now made by Apple.
The smallest self powered 5gig file transfer device is now made by apple.
Both of the very best laptops on the market are made by Apple.
The most cost effective digital video editing system is made by Apple.
The most cost effective DVD authoring system is made by Apple.
The easiest to use DVD authoring system is made by Apple.
Yes you can do all those things with PC's, but not as easily, and I don't think nearly as well. More people will realize this and what Apple hopes is that more people will come over to the Mac camp to take advantage of it. That's where Apples vertical integration really pays off, making it all work together really well.

All the people I know who have PC's only use them for email, word proc, 1/2 can burn cd's, and a couple of games. Everyone I know who has a mac and a cmaera has been able to at least play around with digital video editing and some have made some really good stuff. Nobody I know has been able to edit video on their Windows PC, even the people who bought the software intending to do it.

[Timek]

Foocha. I like the debate.

I don't miss the point. I know what Apple is trying to do, but unless the products have a wider appeal, it's not going to work. I think the Cube is the perfect example. Great design, great concept. But nobody purchased them, even after the price was cut. Prices normally come down when demand starts to dry up. If the demand for a product is high at the beginning and it stays high the price will not come down. That is until the product is revised and the company wants to clear out old inventory.

The problem for Apple is that the customer base for the iPod isn't excited about the product. Read the message boards. There is just way too much negative reaction from the Mac community to support the product and its future. And since there is no market outside the Mac community at the present there is no where else to turn. Does anyone think that someone is going to buy a Mac just so they can get an iPod?

My original point is that if the iPod would have been a truly breakthrough revolutionary product then what you are saying would hold true. The Mac faithful would be climbing over themselves to get one (regardless of the price), AND, if there is a broader appeal (hint: it's not a Mac), then the product has a greater chance at success.

[Timek]

SPG,

Again, good points. Concerning Apple and the quality of its products, I cannot disagree. Apple makes the best computers-period. And the OS will always be superior. Windows is improving, but it will NEVER equal the Macintosh experience. I just don't think it is possible.

However, the iPod is another matter, and maybe I just don't get it. If you can do all of the things on a PC that you can do with a Mac, but not as easily, why doesn't Apple give these folks an opportunity with a new device that will give them that taste of the Apple? I'll repeat it again and again. There is not enough of a market to support the iPod. It will fail, not because of the quality of the product, but simply because not enough people are going to buy it.

It's interesting that the some of the messages I have read in support of the product, even these folks have expressed a reluctance to actually buy it. Doesn't sound good to me.

[igordi]

I got caught up in all the hoopla on the forums leading up to the announcements and when it was actually announced I was crushed. The thing is though, Aple didn't crush my spirits, it was all of us dreamers. Everyone is acting like Apple built this thing up but the only thing they said was "breakthrough digital device". Everyone seems to be getting the wrong idea about who it was a "breakthrough" for. It wasn't for us, it was a breakthrough for the industry, was it not? No one has ever made this type of product with this much potential. Isn't that the breakthrough we were promised?

Of course this is a damn expensive MP3 player but from all the posts I've been reading there are some really cool ideas for this thing in the future and I'm sure that Apple has thought of them all. We just have to realize that the average Joe doesn't know what his computer is capable of so we have to start slow and give people time to learn and be inspired.

The sad part is the price though. If nobody buys the first one they might not build the second.

[Timek]

Igordi,

There's a couple of important points to be made in regard to your post. Most importantly, Apple created the hype for this event. Make no mistake about it. Though know very well that Mac users are unique, and as a rule, are always looking for the latest rumor. If people didn't read the rumor sites, there wouldn't be any rumor sites. They sent out a special invitation that just begged for people to be jumping out of their skin with anticipation (myself included). The only problem is that it didn't work. This product just didn't do it, and it's not going to.

If it was a breakthrough product for the industry it would have been shown to a bunch of engineers whereever it is that these folks hang out. You are fooling yourself if you think this event wasn't planned for consumers. That's the only reason why any company does anything.

I'm sure that Apple has quite a few things under development. I just hope they are truly revolutionary and breakthrough. As far as Apple having thought of them all, I leave you with two words—Think Cube.

[hinkhous]

if iPod does not sell, it might not be because people don't like it or want it. every day there are thousands of people being laid off from their jobs, the stock market has plunged, and the September 11th tragedy all have put us into an economic recession. Most people have less money to spend on "toys", and many have given that money to charities toward the relief efforts.

That being said, Apple has created this product:

1. a 5 GB external hard drive
2. firewire connectivity that is extraordinarily fast
3. sleek compact design that will fit into your hand
4. a method to quickly and easily transfer huge files from any firewire enabled pc (ie movies, cd images, iDVD files, etc)
5. the coolest MP3 player I have seen to date.

So, instead of buying a regular external hard drive, you buy an iPod because it is also an MP3 player. Instead of buying an Iomega 2 GB Jaz drive, you buy the iPod because it has more capacity and much faster. Instead of buying any old MP3 player you buy the iPod because it is just better!

What Apple has done is introduced a product that most view as "old hat." We've all seen MP3 players, hard drives and firewire devices. But what Apple has also done is incorporated a strategy that people have been begging for them to do for years--target profitable markets. Apple has entered a commodity market and has immediately created a product that gives its users the most bang for their buck. I think if people were going to buy an MP3 player before, now they will buy an iPod...I think it will be a success and be a product line that will be around for quite some time...any thoughts??

(one last note--the name stinks)

[jefhatfield]

timek, what you are saying makes good sense but you are trying to argue against arguments which are not well thought out and very subjective and contradictory in nature

i hope apple had more people like you and not so many people who like to live in apple's glory days of the past

apple cannot exist as a vertical company forever, their stock is doing very bad, they need regular breakthroughs, not just one

and apple cannot exist on cool alone

like i always said before, and caught hell for it...

apple is a business and has to market to the masses (including pcs) to do well like they did with the imac (to the masses) instead of marketing to the cool like the cube (which was really more revolutionary but maybe too far ahead of its time)

i don't think anyone really read what you said when you said that you believe apple products are good


hey everybody,

please re-read timek's post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Timek]

hinkhous,

You probably have made the best case for the future of the iPod. I just wish Apple would have said some of the things about the device that you are saying. For a company that is so great at developing great computers, I will never understand their approach to marketing. In today's world, first impressions are the only impressions. If your message doesn't do it the first time around, there is no second chance. Just ask the Newton guys.

If the iPod is going to be PC compatible at some point, it should have been so from the beginning. If it is a multi-purpose device, EVERYBODY should know. Other than the people who read Mac web sites, how many people who own a Mac will know of the uses of the iPod besides it being an MP3 player?

I think the one thing that upset me the most about the release of the iPod is the suggestion from Apple that the iPod is not a Mac. Technically, this is correct. The iPod is not a Macintosh computer. But when you think about it, it only works with Macs, it uses iTunes, you can use it to start-up a Mac. O.K., it's not a Mac. But you can't use it with anything else.

jefhatield,

Thanks for the comments. I couldn't agree more. The iPod announcement frustrates me on so many levels, but more than anything I am becoming more fearful that Apple's days may be numbered.

I was reading the article about the new PC cube today. (On a side note-This machine is a piece of crap and cannot be compared to the real Cube.) The inteesting thing about the article is not the machine it is the disdain that the author holds for Apple. And this disdain is pervasive. There is a certain amount of respect for the Apple's quality, innovation, etc. But when you get on the sales floor of CompUSA or Circuit City, Apple is not treated as a serious computer alternative. The tone of the article is the way many, many people feel about Apple. They don't like it. I don't understand it, as do just about everyone who owns a Mac. But I do understand it's a reality. And it's a reality that Apple has to address if it is going to survive.

And this is why the iPod is doomed. It is just another piece of Apple hardware. Nothing more-nothing less. It will treated that way because that is it the way Apple decided to market it. The iPod will not share shelf space with the rest of the MP3 players. It will be stuck in the puny Apple section and it will go nowhere fast. Even it is modified in a couple months to work with PCs (Why is that such a bad thing anyway?) it will still be sold with the Apple products, and I can almost guarantee that if it is on the the shelf with the other MPs players, the highly knowledgable sales person at CompUSA will say when asked, "Oh that. That only works if you have a Mac."

It's a business folks. It's brutal and ugly. It's the marketplace. Sometimes the best doesn't always win. And from my experience it's that second, third and fourth best, do a better job of marketing and selling.

[jefhatfield]

it is weird being a techie who went to business school instead of engineering school

i keep on trying to explain to my engineer peers who are obsessed with making good product at any price and are not interested at all in if it will sell or not

apple's culture has been that way from the start and has, on one hand, produced the great products of the field...Apple IIe, Mac 128k, performa, and the iMac

but on the other hand, its stupid business practices has let microsoft steal the business operating system market, let palm steal the pda market, let the pc world and console giants steal the gaming market, and lose out by avoiding intel and amd totally and missing out on that market

apple is the best company out there right now the way that webvan was the best dot.com but a complete ignoring of the bottom line (balance sheet) could possibly kill apple

but i have hope, HOPE!... that even if apple falls to one percent of the market share and that they have to lay off most of their employees, they will still exist on some level as long as there is some demand out there for macs

so maybe apple's days as a major silicon valley player are numbered (some already say they are not sitting at the big table) ...but the company will still serve us mac faithfuls for many years to come

[jefhatfield]

and many of you know that i am sometimes critical of steve jobs

but former ceos emilio and that "soda guy" did not exactly choose the best business directions for apple either

sometimes i wish guy kawasaki and the woz would come back, and not in a class reunion sort of way, but these two early apple icons have done very good in the business sector unlike the other former and current heads of apple who, as a group, have lost more money for apple than they made

PS - and don't believe the rumors you see on tabloid tv shows/tv movies about the woz being broke or have taken some vow of poverty...he is doing quite well the same way paul allen is doing well (they are just low key guys)

[Scab Cake]

Just so everyone knows, I was at the Chandler Apple Store last night.

Mwahaha.

Just kidding. But, I was there and I spoke to a couple of sales reps. They said that the response to the iPod has been overwhelming. The guy I spoke to told me that at least 50 people a day have been coming in ready to purchase one. So, just because you think the product is going to fail because you don't want it, or you think that nobody on this board is going to want it (for the current price), don't make assumptions about the public. I mean, after all, they do pay almost $200 for the Windows OS. I probably wouldn't pay $20.

[spikey]

Although apple is the only vertically opposed computer company it doesnt necesseraly mean its a bad thing, it just means its hard to grow. Being like apple is means it has a loyal fan base and will never stop selling computers but it does mean that it is hard to tap into a different market (PC users).
What apple doesnt do well at is it doesnt make its products versatile enough, Macs arent compatible enough with PCs for the average user, iPod is firewire and i dont know many PCs which are firwire etc etc.
I think making iPod mac only isnt a bad idea, what apple needs to do to attract consumers whilst still being vertically opposed is to make macs cheaper, more available to buy, more versatile (which OSX does), and most importantly macs need to be more compatible with PCs for the average user to use as this would lure buyers to apple.

[spikey]

So i suppose what i am saying is its the centre of the digital hub (the macintosh) which is the problem as it isnt easy for consumers to live with.
But the digital products that stem off the macintosh are ok and are what make apple unique to other PC comapnies.

[bgreel]

the italian site macitynet.it has some nice shots of the ipod and apparently you can play breakout on it as well...looks pretty sharp

http://www.macitynet.it/macity/archivio/ipodpresentation.shtml

[MacKixAzz]

Ok,
This may have been mentioned earlier, but this is my opinion of Apple's iPod. I have very little doubt that it is a "revolutionary product" however, as it has been stated, it will be buried by other cheaper options that have less features but a better pricepoint and PC compatability. Apple enjoys wonderful brand loyalty though so it may in fact see a fair share of what it expects to sell. The thing that few people have picked up with the iPod is the fact that its TINY. Its PDA sized yet has 5gb of drive space. Few people would be able to dream of a way to use 5gb in a PDA but still, I have a feeling this is going to be a break for Apple into the PDA market which it actually started so many years ago. I know that the many many mac users out there would LOVE to have an apple logo on their PDA, and certainly the Newton was so very far ahead of its time (i know because i still use one and have no problems with it so many years later and it suits my needs still). This is just my opinion of course the fact that i work at MacWarehouse Technical Support (no flames please) has no way of providing me inside info :)

Talk to ya later folks

[Timek]

Scab Cake,

I understand your point. However, you haven't sold me. People coming into the Apple Store is one thing; when they start doing the same thing at Circuit City, then I will agree with your point.

Also, please don't make assumptions about the people who have been critical of the iPod in this thread. If I'm wrong correct me, but I don't think anyone here has said they did not want or did not like the iPod. I have been critical of Apple's marketing approach to the iPod and their overall marketing approach. I will say it again-I am not questioning the quality of the iPod. Read my earlier posts.

Concerning the public, I think I can make a pretty safe assumption that in the next year 90% of all computer purchases will be Windows machines. Do you think the iPod is going to change that in any significant (or even insignificant) way? Will a lot of Mac people buy the iPod? Sure. But don't measure the reaction to the product based on what is happening the first couple of days after release at an Apple Store.

[jefhatfield]

the vertical setup, which spikey mentions, may be the reason for a higher price, but maybe not...i am just guessing here

but...lower price does bring in business since new computer users, and that's still half of america and most of the world, have no idea that macs are better, they just are watching their wallet

now that i have been watching the iPod posts, if it is any indication, there are some mac die hards who will buy the iPod which at least will give this product a fighting chance

i called about the iPod at my local store and i was one of many that day so that is a good sign...especially since people ordered it sight unseen!

[Microsoft_Windows_Hater]

As a new mac fan, I love the iPod, but I just wish that it wouldn't break my visa if I bought it. It is fantastic, that is granted, but can I afford it? Bring it down to 300 and then that is more like it, but 400 is way too high even for a removable HD. That said, I don't have an MP3 player and the idea of the iPod sounds cool. Most of my friends agree to that point too, none being mac fans.

Apple is looking like it is on its last legs unfortunately. I wish it was not the case, and I would do anything to help. I think that there is one thing that can be done to help Apple, and that is the new iMac. An iPod is cool, but no PC user is going to buy a mac because of it. Personally, I would buy n iBook for it, but that is a different story.

Apple needs the home and business market to open up to it. Then we will see more iPod says and whatever new iDevice that comes along.

[poop]

Did anyone know that Apple owns the domain names "ipod.com" and "ipad.com"? iPad sounds like an Apple PDA name

[ceastwoo]

I visited my campus bookstore today and asked about the iPod. I expected the sales people to tell me that they hadn't heard of it, or they hadn't had any requests for it, or sales, or whatever. After all, I've been here for awhile and this was the reaction to the Cube (although I must admit that I loved the Cube). Surprise, surprise! Apple is offering a student discount on the iPod and it is selling like eggs (you need eggs for every hotcake after all)! Our bookstore has had several inquiries and quite a few sales.

Maybe this thing will be a hit after all.

I think that the techies understand that a) Archos, Creative, and other mp3 devices sound awful (no offense to those without fragile ears) and Apple's 32-bit audio technology beats the competitors sonically, and that (b) this thing is update-able.

Time will tell, but if my campus is any indicator, the iPod was/is a good idea.

[Foocha]

I really don't get this "Apple is on it's last legs" nonsense. Even if the iPod is a complete flop (which it won't be) Apple can take the hit - it has bags of cash right now. The fundamental thing is that Apple now has a industry beating operating system which can reach out way beyond their tired old locked in audience of creative professionals. This is UNIX with Microsoft apps and a world leading user interface - no one else can beat that - not even Microsoft themselves. Add to that some fantastic hardware - I've not seen a notebook that beats Powerbook G4.

I'll understand peoples' concerns if Apple doesn't come out with a fantastic G5 desktop line up next year, but some guys on this thread are over reacting about iPod - it's no big deal.

Big up for Apple!

[mymemory]

I work consolidating web sites and a lot of it involves marketing so.

What may be happening is that the iPod is wearing the wrong suit. There should be a better concept for the same machine. Not to be sold as a MP3 player because can do better things like that. You can program it, can load lts of things in to it. It is better than a Jazz drive may be, but is not compatible with the non apple computers in the marke.

the Cube was a expensive computer to build and it was a hudge investment. The iPod is not that expensive and is an accesory, so I do not think Apple is loosing a lot of money with it.

There should be a secund generation iPot soon with some new features better than a color LCD if this one survived.

[jefhatfield]

if the ipod falls, it certainly couldn't have cost as much as the cube

but i don't recall the last time, if ever, when apple put out a non-computer product so this is a big step and certainly not the only attempt at a peripheral in the digital hub, of which the pc world has used since '98 with good success

the rio started out super strong but diminished somewhat after that but digital cameras have been getting more and more numerous and affordable

[jefhatfield]

the iPod alone cannot kill apple and turn people off, that i totally agree with

by saying apple has "bags of cash" is a ridiculous myth that i often hear people (mostly techies with no businesss knowledge) spout about any company they like because of some product they think is hot...webvan had bags of cash but they died, shawn fanning had bags of cash but his company went down, the founders of cisco are rich but that alone did not keep cisco over 100 a share

the share value of a company is what they need for survival and the cash recerves is not what one should rely on, they need that for r and d, not day to day operations

do you buy groceries with you roth ira, do you pay rent with a cd?

have you looked at the wall street jounal recently?

apple needs a boost and it will take all they have to survive in the long term

[SPG]

If I had one share of Apple stock for every time I heard that "Apple is on it's last legs" or "don't buy a Mac 'cause the company will be gone in a year" or any of that "insider" or "tech business expert" doom predictions I'd own the whole company by now.
iPod will probably sell really well to the Mac faithful for the next three months, then will sell really well to everyone else with a mac when the price drops to $300-$350, and then the PCversion will sell even better to the PC crowd who will then really want to get a mac to use it properly.


________________
...and to drink, Peru!

[spikey]

Well there are bigger things to have a loss over. people predict the G5, new imac are coming out soon, so if there is going to be a huge flop it probably wont be over the iPot.
But what jef said is true. another thing, is even the biggest companies fall. I remember ionica, and look at the mess marconi was in a while back.

[Timek]

Hello again folks,

It's not the iPod in and of itself. It is the marketing approach implemented by Apple that the iPod is this new revolutionary breakthrough that is going to make people flock to the Mac format. As I see it now, the iPod is appealing to the hard core Apple constituents. Once that is gone, I'm afraid there is very little left. My initial arguement was that there is not much of a Mac-only oriented product market to start with. From the continuing reactions, it seems that Apple let down its only market in a big way. Specifically the price. If and when the iPod is PC-compatible, I don't think it will matter. As I mentioned in a previous, there is a disdain for Apple among many PC owners (and retailers, and journalists).

I don't know about Apple being on its last leg, but I would make the case that at least one leg is hurting. I agree that if the G5 machines are not released soon, and if they are not significantly better, then I think Apple is going to be in some real trouble.

[jefhatfield]

what does people predicting the end of apple all the time tell you about their financial health history over the years?

we don't hear that many rumors about the demise of microsoft

if apple did die, the diehard mac users would convince someone to start it up again in another form so there will always be a core loyal following like that company (for women) called maidenform which lasted a century, went under, and then got reconstituted into another maidenform

and how about those cleveland browns (in sports) or gretsch guitars (in musical instruments) or the bush family...

[jefhatfield]

i didn't mean anything about a re-constituted bush family and that political jab was off topic ...but where there is a sincere demand for a product, no matter how small, there will be a supplier

and all those calls on this site for a new newton from apple might result in a new newton if this sight reflects the society of mac users as a whole (maybe the newton could fit into the devices strategy of the digital hub)

[kaneda]

Okay, I have been reading reviews about ipod released. And most of the reviews were very good. ipod will survive!

According to ZDnet.com, Most PC users are really interested in the new Apple's product ipod. And they think PC users will eventually able to use it. Even Steve said that he will try to make ipod compatible with PC market ( but he will wait for awhile to convert some stupid PC users over to MAC first) . But it will not be as good when you use it with a MAC.

I think ipod is a breakthrough device for Apple comparing with other MP3 players (5gb). Most of other players are as huge as a CD player. Remember how trouble some to carry those around? :O) ipod is small and it's light! You can also use it as a portable HD, rather than just MP3 Player.

The only set back is the price. I think it is too expensive. Most of us wait for the price to go down. But by the time we hope Microsoft won't steal the technology. Then Apple will be in big trouble.

[Timek]

jefhatfield,

You make a lot of sense. You are exactly right about the issue of cas reserves. And today it doesn't take much to wipe out a cash reserve very quickly.

I would agree that as long as there is a demand for a product, there will be a supply. However, market share can decline to such a point that makes the company impossible to maintain. There is no money for R&D. Software developers stop writing for the platform. Retailers do not give up shelf space. New hardware development virtually stops. The company is dead.

I really hope this doesn't happen to Apple.

[kiuhde mboleskin]

hey Micrsoft_windows hater (or whatever),
what are you talking about? $400 isn't too much for a 5GB portable firewire drive! you must be crazy!?
It's FIREWIRE. Thats a better deal than most firewire drives.

[Foocha]

I'm puzzled by jefhatfield's arguement regarding cash. According to Apple's CFO the company had around $4 billion in cash in January 2001. Contrary to Jef's arguement cash means exactly that - money available to spend on R&D, groceries or CDs. Whatever.

Share prices or market capitalisation is an indication of the value that investors believe a business has. This is paper money, not cash available to spend. Imagine the impact on Microsoft's share price if Bill Gates were to decide to convert his interest in Microsoft to cash - the share price would be decimated due to oversupply.

My point is that Apple's fundamentals are in place with a strong laptop lineup and a world leading operating system, (as opposed to OS 9 which sucked). Provided they get the next generation of desktops out of the door, I think there's every reason to believe they have a rosey future ahead of them.

iPod could burn up some of Apple's cash reserves, but it's no biggy if it crashes & burns. A 667Mhz Titanium Powerbook running OS X 10.1 will still be the most beautiful notebook on the planet.

I'll be first in line for an iPod when they hit the shelves in the UK.

[spikey]

Just because apple has good products ahead it doesnt mean it will sell them, make huge profits, and have a rosey future.
Think about it, intel makes ***** and sells it to retards. They can make profit without making good products.

Apple needs a whole new marketing strategy if they want to eat into the PC market, hardware is important but if you want to sell its not as important as marketing.

Also jef is right about money, just remember the amount of real money marconi had earlier in the year and yet they were still in trouble.

[Foocha]

I can't comment on the companies Jeff mentioned because I'm not familiar with them, but in general a lot of dotcom companies that had the good fortune to IPO during the dotcom boom made a lot of cash on the deal. They were in the odd position of having stacks of cash, but no income, and no prospect of an income in the future.

Of course I recognise that this is not a good position for a business to be in. Apple is not a dotcom, and its cash reserves were not built up at the expense of greedy and gullible IPO investors, but were generated by punters paying for products. For the past few years Apple has been noticably successful at selling stuff to people (with the obvious exception of the cube).

New marketing strategies? Apple clearly has plenty, with the retail stores and digital lifestyle devices being key components. Only time will tell how successful they may be.
Marconi expanded rapidly when the market for telecoms infrastructure looked promising - far from having cash reserves, they streched themselves thinly and then the market disappear beneath them. If they'd had more cash, then perhaps it could have kept them going until the telecoms market recovered! As it is they're struggling to pay their £2.5bn debts.

[MacAztec]

TO TIMEK!!! Hey, I am only 13 years old, but I am a HUGE mac fan. We have 6 iMacs, and 2 powerbook G3's in our house. I follow up with everything apple does. I have noticed everyone says the iPod wont make it, but if you think. . . .it will. It wasnt meant to be a PC marketing event Timek, so dont get your hopes up. If you have a mac, you know about the iPod. People with PC's get PC stuff, and people with MACS get MAC stuff. I mean, it is a 5 gig external hard drive, that plays MP3's. Thats a pretty big breakthrough. Also, Timek says it will sell at Apple Stores, but wont make it at Circuit City and other sotres like it. Well, Circuit City is not a huge supporter of a mac, they just sell them. In fact, when I am at circuit city, there are more people looking at the 7 macs on disaplay, than the 800 PCs bundeled up in the corner. Also, it wasnt meant to get you to buy a Mac. It is for the Mac lovers, and to convince tthe people that are thinking of getting a mac that. .hey, this is grat, PCs dont have this, its a new breakthrough. I have no clue what you are thinkin when you say it doesnt get people to buy a mac. It was never meant to, it was for Mac users. And, Apples stock is not in the ditches. Actually it is doing better than PC stock. In the depression, it has never dropped more than 15 percent since the 9/11 bombings. MSFT is horrible. it was at 43 a few days, from 63, that is 33 percent. Just letting you know!!!

[jefhatfield]

those are great observations for a 13 year old...you should be in the mba classes because what you say is as valid as any comment i see here on macrumors or among the mba students i have heard at graduate business school

one thing is certain, apple is not at their "best" financially (due to lower than expected sales forecasts in 2001, the cube, the colored imacs, and extremely low stock valuation) nor are they at their absolute "worst"(one could look at '96 and '97 to see how low apple could go)

and it is obvious that the ipod is not as well received as the original imac or as poorly received as the cube

so only time will tell...but i wish apple luck on this product for our sake and the sake of the company

[Bunge]

I think Apple needs to take baby steps to work it's way into a greater market share with their digital hub ideas and this MP3 player is a great way to start.

Obviously they couldn't release an MP3 player, PDA, phone, new computers, digital camera, video camera, ect. into the market all at the same time. There wouldn't be enough of a market to market all of these items to. So they have to start small and work up.

If they started with a fully functioning PDA, they couldn't release an MP3 player down the road. Instead, you release the MP3 player now, and when it drops in price you release a product (iPod+) that covers the MP3 playing abilities PLUS all sorts of other things - at a higher price point.

So Apple will carve out a few new products during the next two years, and there will be some overlap, but it can be managed successfully.

Of course I don't know that Apple wants to release an iPod+ or whatever, but I think it could happen. Maybe all they would have to do is open the iPod to other software devolpers, like the PalmOS has been. That alone might make the iPod something really special.

No matter what, the iPod, unlike the Cube, has a lot of upswing. It has room to grow. The Cube couldn't ever be more than a small computer, the iPod is a great product that could be improved.

So should you buy on speculation? No, only buy one if you need an MP3 player or a really small portable harddrive. But do keep your eye on the product and think big because it might just happen and the term 'breakthrough' would be more accurate.

Just my two cents.

[MacAztec]

I believe the iBook made up for the iMac lowering in sales. In education, Mac is the number 1 selling computer company. Time will tell, as you said. I have sold my apple stock, bought at 20, hehehe, sold at 23, didnt make a whole lot of money. But now, I believe apple is going to be a strong stock in the long run. Linux and Unix are the future. Windows has not introduced, or spoken of either. In 5 years or less, i believe apple will be on top.

[Timek]

Mac_User,

You do make some good points. However, let me respond to a couple to things you mention.

Concerning my Circuit City observations, I started being an Apple Demo Day representative at Circuit City. (It's a pretty cool way to spend a Saturday or Sunday afternoon. You get to talk about Apple products, and you even make a couple bucks.) Anyway, you just aren't correct in what you are saying about the traffic in the Mac section compared to the PC section. You may not want to hear this, but for every 100 computers sold today, about 92 or 93 of them are not Macs. That's just the way it is. You also say that Circuit City is not a fan of the Mac. I may not agree with eactly the way you put that, but I know what you are saying. But that's the problem. If Apple is not successful in stores like Circuit City, CompUSA, etc., there is no long-term future. It's all about market share and unless Apple works toward growing its market there is no future.

Also, Apple is most definitely marketing the iPod as a way for Pc users to switch platforms. Steve Jobs has made this clear in the articles I have read about the iPod.

While I would like to see Apple on top in five years, it's just not going to happen. Microsoft won this war a long time ago. Apple can still be successful (I hope it will.) but there are a lot pitfalls and one or more serious mistakes can be fatal.

[MacAztec]

Timek, I know apple will be on top. Microsoft MUST switch to Linux or Unix sometime, it is the future. They make their computers with all different parts, that is their problem. Example: Farallon e/net, IBM HD, Orange Link USB etc. When the change comes, Microsofts products will not work with Linux or Unix. YOu will have a computer with no ethernet, usb, cd drive, hard drive, or even processor. This change will come. Technology is accelerating, and Microsoft is stuck. Also, back on the iPod. I believe it was mainly for the Hip Hop crazy people who are INTO music. When they see this, they will freak out. They will see it is Mac compatible only, and say "what the hell am i doing with the PC". As you probly know half the people with a PC can burn a CD. Thats what the iPod was meant for. Believe me on the Unix Linux thing, it is true. I run OS 10.1, and it is awesome. I have run DOS at school, and it has way to many bugs. Remember, its not the accessories that count, its the CPU!

[DannyZR2]

Steve and the team SAID that they are not looking to sell iPod to everyone. Obviously because they made it MAC only! I think we are morons for telling Apple or ourselves that, woops, it's not going to make it to the PC world, when they designed it from the start that way!

Steve hopes to sell iPod to a percentage of Mac/Firewire owners and to a percentage of those who need that one more feature to need to upgrade to a new Mac that has Firewire on it. . . like me and my old rev a iMac.. (i love that computer.) So, I went and bought a new Powerbook.

I will buy an iPod.

It is enough for me..

Thanks Steve! I love your work, you are a genius.

[jefhatfield]

i will try to explain my point about cash reserves (i used to be a vice president of a dot.com in san jose before i became a techie) so i know how fast cash reserves could go down

i am not talking mba textbook here since i was one of thousands of first year mba students (with at least ten years of work experience) who ditched grad school midstream to make it in the valley...there is no better teacher than failure the first time out!

One day, I am supposed to plan a meeting with Paul Allen's people, the next, my CEO has to sell her gold range rover and consider going back to school

when your back is up against the wall and reporters are asking about the bad health of your company due to wall street ignoring your stock, it is common for CFOs (chief financial officers) to mention the still positive points a company has left to avoid focusing on the negative

a company makes money through sales revenue and through the investment world (through stocks, venture capitalists, angel investors, etc)

now when the money goes out for the everyday operating expenses, paying off suppliers, and research and development....it cuts into the money made from stocks, revenue, and cuts into the cash reserves

apple has thousands of employees and the research and development is not exactly cheap either...did you know it took apple 18 months to coordinate just the failed color schemes in the dalmation and flower power iMac?

when gil emilio had apple, the company was almost out of business yet they had strong cash reserves but they would have depleted them in a couple of years...it took steve jobs and his imac to save apple, not bolster cash reserves...what helped was that investors got interested in apple again and it helped with finacing the ibook, G4, and other great computers...now if they had relied on cash reserves alone, they would have gone back to the bottom

steve jobs does not own apple, the investors do and this stock market "paper money", while secondary to money made from sales like foocha mentioned, is still a vital part of a company and without it, a company can rip through its cash reserves

4 billion is nice, but try 90 billion for that "other" company which, while at 40 or 50 something a share, still has not lost 80 percent or more of its value in stock like apple, cisco, yahoo, and others in the valley

apple also has some of the most expensive multimillion dollar high profile print ads in major US magazines

many companies in the valley tried to work off of cash reserves and this didn't work well enough since the money had dried up from the stock market last year

apple may not be dead like a lot of mac users think it is, but it is not thriving like dell either who has arrived as top dog in the computer world...their only serious competitor compaq went down and got sold to hp which fortune magazine has characterized as two stones being tied together hoping it will float this time

now that i have thoroughly bored you with biz talk on a techie site, i want to apologize since i am a new techie (since '99) and it is the field i now choose for the second half of my life

i hope these observations help and it is not a stab at apple since i am a pc techie, microsoft certified to boot...yikes

but i use an ibook at home and macs are my primary computers now for almost 20 years but i am not quite a zealot yet because, while i am getting older and i am tired a lot, i still like to use my brain and think for myself and i hope i have the right to pick and choose the mac items i like and the ones i don't

that said, i think the ipod is cool, finally relating to "this" thread, and low sales (if they do occur) won't completely destroy apple or make them any less of a company in the eyes of most mac users

[jefhatfield]

...ok...to be fair...a doomed iPod, if it tanks, won't affect how i feel about apple

[Timek]

jefhatfield,

Great post!!! I think your observations are right on the money. I agree that if the iPod is not successful and is a bust it will not bring Apple down. But I am not completely sold on the iPod and digital hub concept. I think that if Apple is staking its future on this, and it doesn't work, then there is something to worry about. That is what concerns me.

Since you are PC techie, was is your take on the Linux and Unix issue that Mac_User raised in regard to Microsoft. I don't know enough about these platforms to make any kind of intelligent statement. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. Thanks.

[jefhatfield]

i am a middle aged mba candidate who got his degree in business and not electonic engineering so i can't comment if linux or unix is the future...i worked for the third richest company in silicon valley and the funny thing is, even though i became very close to them, i never met one computer science graduate in the IT department of this 800+ location company

in fact, of the thousands of IT employees i met in silicon valley through the years, only one had a CS degree, and from chico state...apparently he must have studied while he drank beer...just kidding

...i do know a senior IT engineer of nearly 20 years of experience who says linux is still the windows killer...let me tell you, it is not OSX even though OSX is ten times better (but i wish it was...linux, after all, is free)

linux is number two in operating systems behind windows and mac os is number three

others like os/2 and beOS follow in order of popularity along with the Sun operating system

...and don't take my comment about CS majors the wrong way

...you will be recognized as important someday when the electronic engineers perfect their product, and thus make their motherboards and cards so cheap they are not even a financial factor anymore!

...at that time, the CS majors in college right now or in thirty to fifty years, will be the ONLY ones out there with the skills necessary to keep the field profitable - i know this has been a prediction since the 1970s when the degree was created nationally, but if you are a CS major, you will have your day like the engineers of the 70s and mba's of the 80s and 90s did!

...when hardware is not a factor it IT, programming and software engineering will be the entire market

that, of course, is a very conservative prediction (since i remember the early 1970s pundits who predicted a computer in every home by 1980 or 1985!)

[Edited by jefhatfield on 10-30-2001 at 07:28 AM]

[MacAztec]

I dont like to say this, only being 13, I respect my elders, but i believe you are wrong. Of course Windows is on top. . .for now. But in the future of computers, with new technology, advanced programs, they wont be. Like I said earlier, Microsoft does make their parts from different companies. Farralon e/net, IBM hard drive, panosonic CD, Orange Link USb, etc. When the change comes for microsoft, and it will, most of their products in their old computers will not work with Linux or Unix. When I say old, I mean EVERY single computer made by Dell, Gateway, IBM etc. before they prepared for the change. So they will have a couple hundred million people saying what the hell. They 1/4 of them atleast will switch to a mac at that time. This change will happen because of technology advances. DOS was written. . .who knows how long ago, and has not changed. It is just a bunch of 10101010X)37DHFJ repeating making a code. This is getting out of date, and must change. At that time, it will be uphill for micrsoft.

[jefhatfield]

in this field, the young surely replace their elders ...i will not argue with that -

experience does not count as much as being current-

you are the future of the IT industry and remember if you are to push the mac field further, just never underestimate the resolve of the pc world

though the pc side does not have people as devoted as the mac side, as we know, there are more of them...20 times more who are completely ignorant to Macintosh

to do business with or against them, we need to know about what is going on in the pc world...many mac users think that the pc is still floting around with windows 3.1 and 486 processors, but they have made progress too, even if it meant them copying us

[MacAztec]

Thanks. I hope you are wrong also. I have a great subject for a new thread, but it wont let me do it. . .

[Mike Gagne]

Originally posted by Timek
Igordi,

There's a couple of important points to be made in regard to your post. Most importantly, Apple created the hype for this event. Make no mistake about it. Though know very well that Mac users are unique, and as a rule, are always looking for the latest rumor. If people didn't read the rumor sites, there wouldn't be any rumor sites. They sent out a special invitation that just begged for people to be jumping out of their skin with anticipation (myself included). The only problem is that it didn't work. This product just didn't do it, and it's not going to.

If it was a breakthrough product for the industry it would have been shown to a bunch of engineers whereever it is that these folks hang out. You are fooling yourself if you think this event wasn't planned for consumers. That's the only reason why any company does anything.

If it isnt a breakthrough product then what is? The iMac was laughed at also and I anticipated it and bought one. The cube was an iMac with a new box around it and it had some limitation. I was intrigued but passed on it. The iPod strikes me as a really different device. 5 to 10 seconds to record a whole cd....amazing. A five gig hard drive that will transport info to any other Mac with fire wire....also amazing. 1000 songs downloaded onto it in 10 minutes with updating automatically everytime you plug it in.....more than amazing. I want one so that I can get rid of the mp3 player that wastes too much of my time on maintenance issues. Timek, the world is full of naysayers....I am glad most of the Mac folks dont listen to it......

I'm sure that Apple has quite a few things under development. I just hope they are truly revolutionary and breakthrough. As far as Apple having thought of them all, I leave you with two words—Think Cube.

[Foocha]

It's worth noting that with the move from Windows ME to Windows XP, Microsoft has finally rid themselves of the old MS DOS code base. The NT series of Windows which includes 2000 and now XP is a powerful operating system, and I see no reason why Microsoft would ever have to migrate the Windows platform to some kind of UNIX derivative.

Remember Apple had little choice but to use someone else's operating system because they proved over many years that they were incapable of developing their own (Pink & Copland). The use of UNIX was undoubtedly a smart move, but Microsoft is in a very different position to Apple. They can afford to invest more in OS development than Apple. In effect, they're able to build a great new OS from scratch, where Apple can only build on the great work of others. Since Microsoft have NT/2000/XP, they don't need to make the move to UNIX, and the advantages of UNIX which are significant to Apple, would not be significant to the Redmond juggernaught.

Don't get me wrong, I think OS X is extremely significant, and the use of UNIX is key to Apple's future - not only does it deliver a robust system with multi tasking and memory protection, but it opens the platform up to a wider range of applications and a potentially broader user base, like server administrators and Java developers.

Let's not kid ourselves however, Microsoft is not going to be moving over to Unix any time soon.

[Edited by Foocha on 10-30-2001 at 07:30 AM]

[Timbuktu]

Hello, I'm 16, I'm new here, and I don't know very much. Please be kind to me. Just one question, how much of a vertiacally integrated conglomerate is Apple when it comes to hardware? Does it do all the component sourcing, manufacturing, distribution and winning retail shelf space in-house? Does Apple build factories themselves or does Apple outsource manufacturing to EMSs like Solectron? There is a lot of difference between the two. By outsourcing the manufacturing part of the equation, Apple can focus its energy on design and marketing. Using contract manufacturing, in theory, Apple's ventures like the iPod would carry a much lower risk.

[Foocha]

You're right. Whilst Apple is vertically integrated in the sense of selling hardware, operating system & applications, it's not vertically integrated in the traditional sense of the word. They don't make the components, and they don't do the manufacturing which is typically outsourced to the far east.

iPod is more a design & marketing job from Apple's perspective. The components are probably off the shelf, and the manufacturing outsourced.

The most costly R&D that Apple is investing in right now is almost certainly OS X and perhaps chip design for G5 PowerPC if the rumours are to be believed. That's why these products are more fundamental to Apple's future than the iPod.

[jefhatfield]

welcome to the macrumors bullfights, timbuktu

it is good that you mention that you are sixteen so people could at least be warned so they won't go after you with four letter words or wonder why you have not been buying macs for seventeen years!

people get really mean on macrumors and many times they are on the same side of the fence...one will say a product is "very good" and another will say it is "great" and that will be enough to cause a huge fight on this site...i have never seen anyone as mean in my life as mac users and a lot of that stems from jealousy of the market share pc computers have in the IT industry

i am one of the most attacked posters for two reasons, first i have been here almost the longest among active members and that opens me up to attacks, and second...i am a pc technician, but only because pc boxes break down more and the huge amount of work out there makes me more money so i could buy macs (i have been hooked to macs for almost two decades)

you will get attacked and often, it will be when someone thought you said something different than you meant

i go after mac users who put out ignorant or inaccurate facts about the pc...macs are more justified when we could look at the good in our own apple products without having to attack the pcs...and we know we are better - so attacking the pc does not give any info to most of the mac people that they already don't know

if we put our brains to praising the mac where it is good and constantly looking for improvements only in our camp (without wasting time hating microsoft and the pc world), apple would have had the feedback necessary to have come out with the iMac years before it did and we would have had OS X years ago also...i am convinced of that

being a mcp (a kind of microsoft network techie...it's boring technical crap), i come in contact with microsoft software techies (*some who are mcsd or mcp, some who are employees of microsoft, and some who are independent) and microsoft's key to success is that they don't waste any time bashing the competition...they also know that they often have the second or third best product...but they don't care because they know what is important and that is that the public buys their product

that is the one thing i learned from being a pc techie and if the mac side is weak in one area, instead of attacking the pc side, we should ask ourselves how to make that mac characteristic stronger

...so since i always put out posts like this one, you probably won't see yourself getting attacked as much as me and if you do, it's because we all want better macs and any constructive criticism you make to help apple (which it does) might be taken as a stand for the microsoft/pc "evil empire"

...and this is not star wars, it is business so if microsoft goes down so do we since they own, at the very least, ten percent of all apple stock and perhaps more even though the exact dollar amount could only be speculated, but it is huge

pirates of silicon valley, the cheap tv movie, made it look like microsoft won the war and they ended up practically buying apple in the end...but that, thank god, is tv myth

again, welcome to the bullfights

[Edited by jefhatfield on 10-30-2001 at 07:44 AM]

[jefhatfield]

thank god DOS is gone

micrsosoft would like to think that NT is an original but it is a UNIX derivative (CompTIA A+ manual) but microsoft put their spin on it

UNIX is not one lauguage like many think, but a family of languages with at least six major branches or flavors and many free BSD and LINUX people/zealots would beg to differ if i simply called their OS just a UNIX flavor... but we have to put languages in some classification so hardware techies and users could understand the complex world of programming

[Bunge]

I still don't think the iPod is doomed. I might not like the name, and it might not sell as well as they hoped, but at long as we're making Cube references I think the iPod will have a longer lifespan. When the Cube was released, what was the original cost? Something like $2200 I think? Well, that was easily double what it should have cost.

The iPod is priced at exactly what it has to be priced at because of its expensive parts, but it's also much closer to the range that most people think in necessary for it to be successful. I mean, $100 less is a quarter of the current cost, but it's still only a hundred bucks, and it's still doesn't cost more than double what it needs to cost.

It's also important to remember that while software isn't free to create, it's not as difficult to do as getting all iPod owners to buy new hardware. What I'm saying is that the iPod is one firmware/software update away from expanding on it's functionality without having to invest a penny more in new hardware. That could be significant.

And to all of you too young to realize it, a portable Pong machine is the bees knees.

[MacAztec]

You are wrong. Windows is still written on the DOS base. Using .exe written with letters. When you start up your PC, it shows all the codes, there was no change. All that happened is they said "NT"!

[Foocha]

Yes, it's true that Windows still uses 3 letter suffixes in it's file names. Actually OS X uses suffixes as well. This has absolutely nothing to do with whether Windows NT is based on DOS. Regarding the “code” you see when you start up a PC, again this does not indicate the the PC is using DOS, it just indicates what the machine is loading at startup. If you boot up a Mac running OS X in single user mode you’ll see something very similar - and we all know Macs don't run DOS ;-)

[oldMac]

Interestingly enough, Windows NT and its children (Windows 2000, Windows XP) started life as a joint effort between Microsoft and IBM.

Back around 1986/1987, IBM and Microsoft recognized the need to build a more modern OS for PCs. Thus the OS/2 project was born as a joint effort between Microsoft and IBM. Throughout the project, MS continued with its Windows operating system efforts.

Around about 1990, Microsoft and IBM diverged their OS/2 efforts because of differing strategic directions. IBM wanted to take OS/2 down a path where they could take away the clone market that drained their PC revenues. Microsoft wanted as many manufacturers as possible, because it was all just licensing revenue for them.

As a result of this dispute, the joint-effort of IBM and Microsoft was ended. IBM went on with the code base to produce IBM's version of OS/2. Microsoft went on with the code base to produce Windows NT.

Of course, Microsoft had the winning strategy and now IBM's OS/2 is mostly a footnote (barring a few vertical applications.)

[Timbuktu]

Thanks for the welcome jefhatfield. I am warned. I don't think some people at Apple are as worked out over issues as some people in this forum are! Anyway, I for one may be getting an iPod this Christmas. I'm not paying, of course, but I believe my dad wants it and I am always his excuse for getting gadgets he doesn't need.

Well, I'm glad i've discovered this place. I don't know how long I'll stay. God, it's not even Macworld yet and you're all so hyped up about iPod. I can't wait to see you reactions when Jobs wheels out the new iMac and G5.

[Classic]

Anybody know if it would be possible to make a USB->Firewire cable in order to use an iPod as a traveling hard drive for a digital camera?

[MacAztec]

Sorry man, I dont believe you can do that. But if you are looking for a wonderful firewire DV Mini DV cam, check out the Sony TRV-30. It is great. 1.55 megapixel stills, and GL1 broadcasting video quality. I know this because we own both. It is fire wire. Go to pricegrabber.com and get it for 1,199.

[hinkhous]

Any more thoughts on the iPod as a product rather than as a part of Apple's corporate viability? I think that this thread should really explore whether we feel this product will be a success or not. I for one think it will be a success, and I would like to repost my earlier comments for anyone that would like to read them...

---->

if iPod does not sell, it might not be because people don't like it or want it. every day there are thousands of people being laid off from their jobs, the stock market has plunged, and the September 11th tragedy all have put us into an economic recession. Most people have less money to spend on "toys", and many have given that money to charities toward the relief efforts.

That being said, Apple has created this product:

1. a 5 GB external hard drive
2. firewire connectivity that is extraordinarily fast
3. sleek compact design that will fit into your hand
4. a method to quickly and easily transfer huge files from any firewire enabled pc (ie movies, cd images, iDVD files, etc)
5. the coolest MP3 player I have seen to date.

So, instead of buying a regular external hard drive, you buy an iPod because it is also an MP3 player. Instead of buying an Iomega 2 GB Jaz drive, you buy the iPod because it has more capacity and much faster. Instead of buying any old MP3 player you buy the iPod because it is just better!

What Apple has done is introduced a product that most view as "old hat." We've all seen MP3 players, hard drives and firewire devices. But what Apple has also done is incorporated a strategy that people have been begging for them to do for years--target profitable markets. Apple has entered a commodity market and has immediately created a product that gives its users the most bang for their buck. I think if people were going to buy an MP3 player before, now they will buy an iPod...I think it will be a success and be a product line that will be around for quite some time...any thoughts??

(one last note--the name stinks)

<-----

If there are no more iPod specific rants and raves, lets start a new thread about how the iPod fits into Apple's "Digital Hub" and how economically viable Apple Computer is in this new "New Economy" (or lack thereof).
I for one would like to get into the viability of Apple.

If you want to get into the mix, check out some factual information such as Apple's quarterly and annual reports:

Apple Investor Relations
http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=aapl&script=11906&layout=7&item_id='index.htm'

or

SEC EDGAR Financial Database
http://www.sec.gov/edgar.shtml

Anyone for a new thread??

[hinkhous]

PS...as rumored in this thread, I do like the name iPad for a future Apple branded PDA. Anyone else?