WARNING - Activation Monkeys Will Attack

[n0de]

Do not under any circumstances attempt to leave an Apple store with unactivated iPhones.

I was just at the KOP Apple store (outside Philadelphia) and witnessed a guy get mauled by 2 Apple employees because he "didn't complete the transaction". He had paid with a credit card, which they seemed to acknowledge. He was a reasonably well dressed guy in his late 40's and tried really hard to be civil with them, not attempting to run away or anything. It was very obvious from his comments that he knew exactly what he was doing though. He must have actually paid because they ended up letting him walk away.

Apparently he bought 3, they were each in the iPhone bags and still shrink wrapped (why I think they were unactivated) and left the store. He was pursued by two employees who tried to rip them from his hands, actually ripping the bags so the phones fell on the floor. A struggle ensued and the customer ended up with 2 and the employees walked away with 1 (a testament to the Comic Book Guy types employed by this location, read fat, unkempt and exercise challenged). Once they yelled at him a bit more the employees walked away with the one phone and the guy started to leave. Mall security showed up after it was all over, called by the jewelry store this occurred outside of, not by apple. Mall security seemed uninterested once they heard his story.

To add to this PR nightmare, one of the employees tried to knock a camera phone out of a bystanders' hand because he was filming the event.

Watch for it on youtube because there had to be a dozen people filming the event on their phones (not iPhones, sigh...)

[Deadman64]

King of Prussia huh?? I live in Lancaster. I should have went to KOP, they still got em?? I'm stuck with direct fulfillment now.... hilarious story btw!

[n0de]

There was a line of about 50 people waiting outside for them. Alot of them had receipts in their hands so I assume the paid in advance and were picking them up... One of the apple guys said Ardmore still had them.

[dissdnt]

Um he has every right to leave. He already payed.

Why is Apples procedure to make the costumer pay before activation? It should be one transaction.

Pick your phone, unbox it. Let the customer hold it and agree. Start activation process and get there credit card at the same time. Hold onto both until it's a done deal, process the card. done.

Anyway what nerve of those Apple employees. I would sue!

[ceiph]

i wish i was that guy. i would have called the police and had the employees arrested. gatta love that the employees had no right to assault him or his property assuming all 3 were paid for.

[grantsdale]

The guy should sue. Those employees cannot touch him.

[mrwizardno2]

The guy should sue. Those employees cannot touch him.

I totally agree. Especially if they kept one of them that HE PAID FOR on top of assaulting him outside the store.

I can't wait to follow this one :D

[View]

I find it kind of hard to believe (not saying you're lying or anything), but it's stupid for the Apple employees to "STOLE" one of the iPhones from him. Why not just let him go since they got all of his information to track him down later?

So, the guy paid for 3 and only got 2???

What's even more stupid is that they knocked a camera phone off of other people hands, isn't it illegal??

If all of this was true, he should sue Apple's a$$! get a free unlimited supply of iPhone for life! lol

[Small White Car]

Pick your phone, unbox it. Let the customer hold it and agree. Start activation process and get there credit card at the same time. Hold onto both until it's a done deal, process the card. done.

Wait, you would have them OPEN the boxes before they have any idea if you have a good credit card? There would surely be a dozen or so phones per store every day that COULD have been sold to somebody else after a credit card failure, but instead have to be sent back to be refurbished and re-boxed.

Um he has every right to leave. He already payed.


the employees had no right to assault him or his property assuming all 3 were paid for.

They weren't paid for. He paid for half of the phone, but AT&T pays for the other half of the phone. If he doesn't complete a contract then Apple doesn't get paid for the other half of the phone. Meaning, the phones were NOT fully paid for. You can't pay for half of something and walk out with it at ANY store.

That being said, the policy is to do the AT&T stuff first and to only sell 1 phone per customer. So it sounds like the Apple store was doing it all wrong (in more ways than one) and got what they deserved. Still, that doesn't mean the guy can take them. They messed up, but he hadn't paid for the phones before he left. Just becuase it's the store's fault for doing it wrong doesn't mean he can keep them.

[DeaconGraves]

Ok. On launch day, I clearly remember the purchase procedure being.

1) Pick out phone and plan.
2) Pay for plan at what typically was the genius bar (This is the Domain Apple Store in Austin).
3) After purchase was complete, Concierge would physically take the phone (with customer following) to a genius at one of the many macs around the store.
4) Genius would open the box, let me see the phone, take off as much of the wrapping, etc.
5) Genius would plug phone into iTunes to activate (or, since this was the disaster that was Friday, gave me the option of just leaving without activation since things were so scrwed up).

So, if this procedure is still be followed (or supposed to be), then its definitely the stores fault. Don't hand him the iPhones in the first place.

[n0de]

The procedure just described by DeaconGraves seemed to be what was going on, except this is a pretty small mall store so the activations were spread over at least 2 or 3 locations in the store. I could see how he paid for them and the employee walked over to see if the activation employee was available.

I am pretty sure the guy knew the drill and was just trying to get away without activating. He was grinning a bit too much about the situation.

[AustinSTI]

The guy should sue. Those employees cannot touch him.

If they touched him its assault - a criminal offense...

[quagmire]

If they touched him its assault - a criminal offense...

If the customer did something wrong then it isn't assault as long as they didn't use excessive force to detain him.

Now on the other hand of them shoving bystanders cell phones out of their hands, that is assault and battery( assault is just the perceived threat of being hurt, battery is the actual hitting).

[mac jones]

Isn't this all suppose to be fun?

this whole thing sounds like a stressful OCD thing.

I mean, it's not like a food line in the depression where people actually had a reason to there.

[quagmire]

Is there any news about this event on your local news? We need updates! :p

[n0de]

Nope, nothing new. Just checked youtube and nothing there.

I will check the police blotter tomorrow morning and post an update if there is anything.

[MatthewStorm]

When I bought my iPhone at the 5th Av. store on Friday they handed me the phone in sealed box, took my money and said "Enjoy." I activated my phone at home same as I did the first one.

[mkoesel]

I'm pretty sure it is impossible to ring up the phone until it has successfully been put on a plan with AT&T. That means the guy either had signed a contract for the phones in addition to paying for them or he was trying to steal them outright. There is no in between.

Also I agree with the guy earlier who points out that it is preposterous to claim the apple employees actually took back one of the phones if it was not outright stolen.

Overall, not really a believeable story as recounted here.

[vrflyer]

Sounds to me like the employees didn't know the law nor their limits with a patron.


The customer should of def. Chuck Norrise'd them out! :p

[mac jones]

I'm pretty sure it is impossible to ring up the phone until it has successfully been put on a plan with AT&T. That means the guy either had signed a contract for the phones in addition to paying for them or he was trying to steal them outright. There is no in between.

Also I agree with the guy earlier who points out that it is preposterous to claim the apple employees actually took back one of the phones if it was not outright stolen.

Overall, not really a believeable story as recounted here.

Good catch! that's right.

I read that story and didn't catch that. Of course this isn't how it could have happened.

[meko]

I bought a 3G on friday and they gave us an option to either activate it in store or at home. I had to return that phone since it was defective and they gave me another in a sealed box. I walked out, no questions asked.

They scan the bar code on the phone and I'm certain that the IMEI number is part of that data set, so it's not like they don't know who you are or what phone you bought. I think that's the main part of activation process.

[marksman]

If the customer did something wrong then it isn't assault as long as they didn't use excessive force to detain him.

Now on the other hand of them shoving bystanders cell phones out of their hands, that is assault and battery( assault is just the perceived threat of being hurt, battery is the actual hitting).

Thanks for posting this. Retail establishments do have leeway to forcibly remove people from their premises if the situation warrants it.

As for all of this, I don't know why they got so carried away. I am pretty sure there is a stiff penalty for any phones that are not activated with in 30 days.

[alexmarchuk]

I would sue for the assault, they had no right to do that, even if he was wrong. They should've got security.

[Jblack4083]

I left my apple store with an unactivated iPhone, still in the shrink wrap, on Friday.

[tsice19]

Well. Follow the rules and this won't happen :/

[quagmire]

I would sue for the assault, they had no right to do that, even if he was wrong. They should've got security.

I advise you to take a law class. They do have the right to as long as they didn't use excessive force and had probable cause.

Though they were wrong for knocking cell phones out of bystanders hands. They then could be charged for that.

[sistim turbo]

i wa at the kop mall today. what time was it?
the happening?

lol

[fedup flyer]

I advise you to take a law class. They do have the right to as long as they didn't use excessive force and had probable cause.

Though they were wrong for knocking cell phones out of bystanders hands. They then could be charged for that.

No, you are the one that needs to take a law class.
All the employees can do is ask someone to leave the premises. They cannot take physical action and not even touch a hair unless they are in immanent danger. That is assault plain an simple.
If that person does not leave, now he is trespassing.
As to pursue someone out of a store that has legally purchased an item and then take it. Well that is larceny.
If you try to block my attempt to legally leave an establishment, that is being held against my will or being detained.
Mall cops cant do anything either. They can ask you to stay but can't prevent you from leaving. They do not have the right to detain you
This guy has a good shot at a lawsuit.

[ChrisN]

Anyone know if there is a vid on youtube about this?:D

ChrisN

[quagmire]

No, you are the one that needs to take a law class.
All the employees can do is ask someone to leave the premisis. They cannot take physical action and not even touch a hair. That is assault plain an simple.
If that person does not leave, now he is tresspassing. As to pursue someone out of a store that has legally purchased an item and then take it. Well that is larceny.
If you try to block my attempt to legally leave an establishment, that is being held against my will.
This guy has a good shot at a lawsuit.

Since we don't know the full story, you can't assume the Apple Employees just felt like tackling him.

If the customer did something wrong( stole the iPhones) then the Apple Employees can use some force to detain him.

[Koodauw]

I would sue for the assault, they had no right to do that, even if he was wrong. They should've got security.

LOL clearly you have never work in a mall. Mall Security is the biggest joke ever. I also find the details of this story to be a bit sketchy. We're not getting the whole story.

[bry223]

LOL clearly you have never work in a mall. Mall Security is the biggest joke ever.

Agree, they cant do anything but call the cops/sheriffs in.

[alexmarchuk]

I advise you to take a law class. They do have the right to as long as they didn't use excessive force and had probable cause.

Though they were wrong for knocking cell phones out of bystanders hands. They then could be charged for that.

Are you kidding me? All they could do was ask nicely, not actually struggle with the customer.

[quagmire]

Are you kidding me? All they could do was ask nicely, not actually struggle with the customer.

" Sir, I see you stole the iPhones. Can you please come back to the store so we can have you arrested."


Don't see that happening and working.......

Again, we need to know what happened and if the force they used was excessive.

[DeaconGraves]

No, you are the one that needs to take a law class.
All the employees can do is ask someone to leave the premisis. They cannot take physical action and not even touch a hair. That is assault plain an simple.
If that person does not leave, now he is tresspassing. As to pursue someone out of a store that has legally purchased an item and then take it. Well that is larceny.
If you try to block my attempt to legally leave an establishment, that is being held against my will.
This guy has a good shot at a lawsuit.

Fail.

Most states allow as a defense to false arrest, false imprisonment, unlawful detention, assault, etc., that the person was detained in a reasonable manner and for not more than a reasonable time to permit such investigation or questioning by a peace officer if the merchant believed the person was committing or attempting to commit larceny. (see New York General Business Law § 218 or Calif. Penal code §490.5(f)).

The question would be whether failing to follow the procedure established by Apple to purchase the product would be considered along the lines of larceny.

[alexmarchuk]

" Sir, I see you stole the iPhones. Can you please come back to the store so we can have you arrested."


Don't see that happening and working.......

Again, we need to know what happened and if the force they used was excessive.

According to the story, they were paid for. There were many people that took theirs home without being activated.

[dlamin517]

Employees have NO RIGHT to detain people. it is against the law(At least in America). whether they stole something or not. The police are the only people who can use physical force on someone. He COULD sue.
Security, such as mall security and retail security are not allowed to detain people either. Their only job is to keep a mental image of the person and take down any info, ie drivers license, car model, ect. Many people dont realize this. The police are the ONLY people who can touch other people. And they have to have probable cause to do so.

[quagmire]

According to the story, they were paid for. There were many people that took theirs home without being activated.

That was when the servers were bogged down and wasn't normal procedure. They might of just went back to normal procedure.

But, I repeat we don't know the full story. Until then we can't assume anything.

All I was saying is if the guy did something wrong then they could use some force to detain him.

Employees have NO RIGHT to detain people. it is against the law(At least in America). whether they stole something or not. The police are the only people who can use physical force on someone. He COULD sue.
Security, such as mall security and retail security are not allowed to detain people either. Their only job is to keep a mental image of the person and take down any info, ie drivers license, car model, ect. Many people dont realize this. The police are the ONLY people who can touch other people. And they have to have probable cause to do so.

It's called a citizens arrest.......

[fedup flyer]

Fail.

Most states allow as a defense to false arrest, false imprisonment, unlawful detention, assault, etc., that the person was detained in a reasonable manner and for not more than a reasonable time to permit such investigation or questioning by a peace officer if the merchant believed the person was committing or attempting to commit larceny. (see New York General Business Law § 218 or Calif. Penal code §490.5(f)).

The question would be whether failing to follow the procedure established by Apple to purchase the product would be considered along the lines of larceny.

What you are spouting about is correct if it is done by a law enforcement official. Not some cash register monkey.
You, as a private citizen, can not rightfully detain me just because you felt like it.

[quagmire]

What you are spouting about is correct if it is done by a law enforcement official. Not some cash register monkey.
You, as a private citizen, can not rightfully detain me just because you felt like it.

But, we can if we have probable cause if you did something wrong. Like I said earlier, it's called a citizens arrest.

[alexmarchuk]

But, we can if we have probable cause if you did something wrong. Like I said earlier, it's called a citizens arrest.

It's not a crime if they paid for them.. So when activation was down, they should stop selling the phones or I make a citizens arrest for all the people that walked out without activating.

[quagmire]

It's not a crime if they paid for them.. So when activation was down, they should stop selling the phones or I make a citizens arrest for all the people that walked out without activating.

Again, do you think the potential wrong doer will just say, " Fine Ok" when you say you'll be putting someone under citizens arrest. Force can be used, but it can't be excessive.

It's not a crime if they paid for them.. So when activation was down, they should stop selling the phones or I make a citizens arrest for all the people that walked out without activating.

We don't know the full situation on this story. So don't assume anything. I am just arguing on the legality of using force to detain someone.

[bry223]

Welcome to America, where everyone wants to sue you for everything and anything possible.

This reminds me of what happened at my store, where 2 18-19 year old kids booked it out the door with some of our merchandise, they were detained outside, arrested, and yet their parents (Wealthy dentists) are sue'ng our company, for what I dont know, the kids weren't even touched when they were detain'd, they voluntarily gave up in the parking lot while being chased.

Sue Happy America as I call it

[alexmarchuk]

Welcome to America, where everyone wants to sue you for everything and anything possible.

This reminds me of what happened at my store, where 2 18-19 year old kids booked it out the door with some of our merchandise, they were detained outside, arrested, and yet their parents (Wealthy dentists) are sue'ng our company, for what I dont know, the kids weren't even touched when they were detain'd, they voluntarily gave up in the parking lot while being chased.

Sue Happy America as I call it

That's the beauty of America.

[prelag]

Let's put things into perspective shall we?

I own quite a few guns and have my CCW. If someone were to happen to break into my car and was stealing the radio out of it would I be able to do anything?

The answer is yes and no. I cannot draw my weapon on the bad guy so I am stuck with perhaps getting into a fight over a car stereo and risk being shot in the process if he manages to take my gun from me while we wrestle over the radio. Not a smart way to die.

So, if I cannot protect my own property (home not included) how can apple employees use any kind of force on anyone for anything.

If something is stolen, all they can do is call the cops. Sure, they can try to grab the merchandise from the would be robber, but I doubt they get paid enough for that.:rolleyes:

[alexmarchuk]

Let's put things into perspective shall we?

I own quite a few guns and have my CCW. If someone were to happen to break into my car and was stealing the radio out of it would I be able to do anything?

The answer is yes and no. I cannot draw my weapon on the bad guy so I am stuck with perhaps getting into a fight over a car stereo and risk being shot in the process if he manages to take my gun from me while we wrestle over the radio. Not a smart way to die.

So, if I cannot protect my own property (home not included) how can apple employees use any kind of force on anyone for anything.

If something is stolen, all they can do is call the cops. Sure, they can try to grab the merchandise from the would be robber, but I doubt they get paid enough for that.:rolleyes:

Logical thinking!

Could of, should of, we're only missing would of.

Whoops, I hit send too quickly. Why is this story so hard to believe? Can't wait for the video!!!

[DeaconGraves]

Let's put things into perspective shall we?

I own quite a few guns and have my CCW. If someone were to happen to break into my car and was stealing the radio out of it would I be able to do anything?

The answer is yes and no. I cannot draw my weapon on the bad guy so I am stuck with perhaps getting into a fight over a car stereo and risk being shot in the process if he manages to take my gun from me while we wrestle over the radio. Not a smart way to die.

So, if I cannot protect my own property (home not included) how can apple employees use any kind of force on anyone for anything.

If something is stolen, all they can do is call the cops. Sure, they can try to grab the merchandise from the would be robber, but I doubt they get paid enough for that.:rolleyes:

Drawing a few generalizations there. I know in Texas we have penal statutes that allow the use of force in the scenario you described. (Yes, yes, insert as many Texas jokes as you want here).

In the same way, many states do allow a merchant to detain a suspected robber for a reasonable time until authorities show up.

[n0de]

I have searched Youtube and the papers and there is nothing new....

[TexasAg]

What you are spouting about is correct if it is done by a law enforcement official. Not some cash register monkey.
You, as a private citizen, can not rightfully detain me just because you felt like it.

Wrong. The New York law that DeaconGraves cited says it applies to police officers as well as a "retail mercantile establishment" and its "authorized employee or agent." In New York, you can be detained in a reasonable manner and for a reasonable time. Believe it or not, you can't steal something and run out of a store, then sue when the store owner or employee physically stops you. Well, I guess you can sue and force the store to defend itself, but the store does have a defense.

[quagmire]

Wrong. The New York law that DeaconGraves cited says it applies to police officers as well as a "retail mercantile establishment" and its "authorized employee or agent." In New York, you can be detained in a reasonable manner and for a reasonable time. Believe it or not, you can't steal something and run out of a store, then sue when the store owner or employee physically stops you. Well, I guess you can sue and force the store to defend itself, but the store does have a defense.

The thief can sue on the basis of the store used excessive force to detain him. Really, the only way a thief can sue the store if he was detained by them.

[aquanutz]

I've read quite a few times that by purchasing the phone at the subsidized price he agreed to the terms of the AT&T contract. Is this stated on the box or somewhere easily visible in the store so that it could be legally binding? Otherwise I am pretty certain he had every right to walk out of the store after paying what they charged him.

[horric29]

I'm going to disagree with most of you. The store's designated agent can indeed detain a shoplifter. The rules are a little different state by state. I used to work in Loss Prevention for Sears and Value City. In PA the alleged shoplifter must pass a point of purchase, or cause damage to the merchandise before a stop may be performed. From that point, the retail establishment can either call the police, file a complaint banning the individual from the premesis, or retrieve the merchandise and do nothing. When I walked in MD, the situation was similar except I worked in Baltimore... There, I had the ability to file the charges in the courthouse myself after detaining the individual. They had forms that we would fill out collecting ID info, etc, and would then take the forms to the courthouse for a warrant to be issued. Our use of force was always allowed to be equivelant to what was provided with the exception of knives and guns. Pepper spray was also used on occasion for those shoplifter's who wanted to throw a punch. I've had easily over 100+ stops/arrests and was never successfully sued and never lost a case that went to trial. Check your facts and leave your assumptions at the door. :D

[Andronicus]

I can't believe you guys are still posting on this thread...

Just FYI, this story is BS. :cool:

One love one :apple:

[applefan85]

it's funny I was actually in line that day at the store trying to buy a phone and I saw when this happened.... the man who was trying to leave with the phones did NOT pay for them, because when the employees said that to him he cursed at them and kept trying to leave, even after they offered to let everything drop and have him come back in and pay without a problem with security. I don't know much else but I'm pretty positive the guy didn't pay... the guy ended up going back inside after the incident and came out a while later with the phones... so I would assume he paid and had them activated then.

[stevin]

I can't believe you guys are still posting on this thread...

Just FYI, this story is BS. :cool:

One love one :apple:

you tube video or it didnt happen:D

[weasel5053]

The OP is right on with this. The person in question is my friend and I was with him at first.

He actually purchase 4 phones, not 3, and they were all done as individual transactions. The first was for me and I left after it was paid for. The store employee handed me the phone after it was paid for and I said "doesn't it have to be activated" and he said "no you can do it later." I left the store - in fact the guy at the door managing the line shook my hand and congratulated me. Others were leaving without the iTunes activation as well. Note that the activation we are talking about is plugging the phone into iTunes at the very end - this has nothing to do with the AT&T contract details that were already dealt with during the purchase.

They changed the apple employee that was helping him at the last minute because the guy that was waiting on him had to go do some training. When he was all finished the new guy told him that he had to activate the phones. Obviously this conflicted with what the other guy had told us so I guess he felt jerked around and said he was just leaving.

So then the manager of the store pursued him, called him a thief and threw him into a support post, even though this same manager acknowledged that he knew the phones were paid for. It really seems like the manager just wanted to rough somebody up. My friend is actually hurt pretty bad now. As was mentioned the manager also went after a guy that was capturing it on video.

Lots of people saw this and he has been getting video of the incident from people. If you have any additional video or info you would like to pass along please PM me with your contact info and I will get it to him. I'm sure he would be particularly interested in hearing from the other people that were told they could leave without activating.

I will post some video of this on youtube later and post the link here.

[quagmire]

Well in that case, I see both at fault then. Did your friend explain that the person helping him said you could take it home to activate? It definitely does sound like the manager used excessive force to stop him. But, it could of been avoided if your friend didn't react that way. Either way, your friend can probably take this to civil court and gain some damages due to the excessive force used to stop him.

[DeaconGraves]

The OP is right on with this. The person in question is my friend and I was with him at first.

He actually purchase 4 phones, not 3, and they were all done as individual transactions. The first was for me and I left after it was paid for. The store employee handed me the phone after it was paid for and I said "doesn't it have to be activated" and he said "no you can do it later." I left the store - in fact the guy at the door managing the line shook my hand and congratulated me. Others were leaving without the iTunes activation as well. Note that the activation we are talking about is plugging the phone into iTunes at the very end - this has nothing to do with the AT&T contract details that were already dealt with during the purchase.

They changed the apple employee that was helping him at the last minute because the guy that was waiting on him had to go do some training. When he was all finished the new guy told him that he had to activate the phones. Obviously this conflicted with what the other guy had told us so I guess he felt jerked around and said he was just leaving.

So then the manager of the store pursued him, called him a thief and threw him into a support post, even though this same manager acknowledged that he knew the phones were paid for. It really seems like the manager just wanted to rough somebody up. My friend is actually hurt pretty bad now. As was mentioned the manager also went after a guy that was capturing it on video.

Lots of people saw this and he has been getting video of the incident from people. If you have any additional video or info you would like to pass along please PM me with your contact info and I will get it to him. I'm sure he would be particularly interested in hearing from the other people that were told they could leave without activating.

I will post some video of this on youtube later and post the link here.


I call BS.

This thread is approaching 24 hours old and NO video has surfaced yet, despite all this guy's friend has been receiving? Information doesn't leak out that slowly these days.

Not to mention good ol' first post syndrome above.

[noapple]

Well in that case, I see both at fault then. Did your friend explain that the person helping him said you could take it home to activate? It definitely does sound like the manager used excessive force to stop him. But, it could of been avoided if your friend didn't react that way. Either way, your friend can probably take this to civil court and gain some damages due to the excessive force used to stop him.



The customer is not at fault for leaving a store after telling them that he is leaving. It doesn't matter what the first employee said; the customer can leave the store without activating the product that he now owns. The product was purchased and it is now owned by the customer.

Based on the above post it doesn't sound like both are at fault at all. The customer told the employee he was leaving. So he's not allowed to leave? That is the only way it would be his fault. He left, he was attacked. He has no blame in this at all.

The video will be interesting I'm sure. I would suspect that the video has not been posted earlier because of legal reasons or that it was not given to somebody who could post it. There are reasons for it to be delayed.

[quagmire]

The customer is not at fault for leaving a store after telling them that he is leaving. It doesn't matter what the first employee said; the customer can leave the store without activating the product that he now owns. The product was purchased and it is now owned by the customer.

Based on the above post it doesn't sound like both are at fault at all. The customer told the employee he was leaving. So he's not allowed to leave? That is the only way it would be his fault. He left, he was attacked. He has no blame in this at all.

The video will be interesting I'm sure. I would suspect that the video has not been posted earlier because of legal reasons or that it was not given to somebody who could post it. There are reasons for it to be delayed.

Before you pay for the phone, they make you sign the contract. Depending on what the contract says, leaving with an unactivated phone could of been against the contract unless stated otherwise. Certainly a manager is higher up then the other employees so if he says he had to activate in store, then you have to activate in store. No doubt I would of felt knee jerked if one employee said I could leave without activating in store then told the opposite later, but I would of sucked it up because that is life.


But, the force the manager used to stop him was IMHO excessive and can sue the store for damages.

[Ninja Guidan]

I call BS.

This thread is approaching 24 hours old and NO video has surfaced yet, despite all this guy's friend has been receiving? Information doesn't leak out that slowly these days.

Not to mention good ol' first post syndrome above.

I agree...

"This is some BULL..." - Bernie Mac

[LB01]

Wrong. The New York law that DeaconGraves cited says it applies to police officers as well as a "retail mercantile establishment" and its "authorized employee or agent." In New York, you can be detained in a reasonable manner and for a reasonable time. Believe it or not, you can't steal something and run out of a store, then sue when the store owner or employee physically stops you. Well, I guess you can sue and force the store to defend itself, but the store does have a defense.

To clarify information on this situation, I paid for all 4 phones in full, I renewed my contracts for all 4 phones. I did not activate the phones at the store I was originally told I did not have to. It seems that the policy is inconsistent, even from all of the post listed here which I thank you for. I was attacked outside of the store by store employees for not activating the phones. I do have limited video which was sent to me. I chose not to post it. I have not decided what action I will take. I did call the regional manager of the store , twice and have not recieved a return call.

[thor79]

If he paid for the phones and signed the contract they have no right to stop him from leaving the store. He has held up his end of the bargain. If they try to detain him or take one of his phones he has the right to file assault or petty theft charges against the offending employees.

The Apple policy which was initially used but has since become optional for certain stores...is ******** to begin with. There was no reason in store activation was required since once you sign the contract it doesn't matter where you activate the phone at. The story before launch of the specially setup iTunes installs just for activation on the computers at the store was total ********.

My experience at the Apple store in downtown Chicago was easy. I went in paid for the phone...and was told to head downstairs to the quick connect people to get the phone activated. There was no escorting me or taking my phone. I chose to go to the quick connect people since I had an hour drive back to my house from downtown and I wanted to test out the GPS on the drive. I could have just as easily chose to go out the front door and leave without activating...no one challenged me on the way out asking if my phone was activated (between the activation and leaving I went and purchased a dock at the Accessories desk downstairs, so there was really no way they could track me after activation as there was a lot of people roaming about). There is absolutely no reason why people should be forced to activate if other people were not forced to do so.

[mkoesel]

No way there is a video. It would be out by now.

[noapple]

No way there is a video. It would be out by now.


Not if the person who has it, the guy who posted above, has chosen to not release it.

[DeaconGraves]

Not if the person who has it, the guy who posted above, has chosen to not release it.

In the world of camera phones, I doubt that only one person got it on film.

You're also making a strong assumption that the guy above is the actual victim. If he's received legal advice not to post the video, I'm pretty sure that same counsel would advise not to go responding to message board posts as well.

[AnotherLabRat]

Since we don't know the full story, you can't assume the Apple Employees just felt like tackling him.

If the customer did something wrong( stole the iPhones) then the Apple Employees can use some force to detain him.

I'll speak AS a former security guard (non-bonded). WA state law says you are wrong(may vary among states). In these situations, the only entity with the authority to detain someone is law enforcement. This goes for physical contact and search/seizure as well.

For all other persons, they can merely ask you to stick around. Otherwise, as other posters stated, you risk unlawful detainment and assault. Most people getting caught shoplifting, etc. rarely know their way around the law, so fully cooperate not knowing they have the right to refuse searches, detainment, and physical contact.

Security firms go the extra mile to get this point across to their employees for fear of lawsuits. You can be persuasive (yell, scream, intimidate, threaten with law, etc.), but under no circumstances can you force someone to surrender belongings in their possession, hold them against their will, or use other physical means. End of story.

The purpose of these laws is to keep those without formal training in the continuum of force, without authority, and without accountability from using unreasonable force.

Clearly, store employees aren't aware of this information and most suspects aren't either, so it's rare to see businesses receive any guff about it (especially when the person was guilty all along).

With all this said. I don't see the big deal with the guy leaving without activation. ATT gets their cash through the contracts(this is the first step to buy a phone), Apple was paid by ATT already, and the guy already paid(supposedly) his portion (199/299) for his phones. Everyone gets their money, so am I missing something?

[mhnajjar]

So for thos who got a sealed iPhone 3G, would you be able to use your 2G iPhone SIM on the 3G without activating it? In other words, without extending your AT&T contract?

[AnotherLabRat]

Wrong. The New York law that DeaconGraves cited says it applies to police officers as well as a "retail mercantile establishment" and its "authorized employee or agent." In New York, you can be detained in a reasonable manner and for a reasonable time. Believe it or not, you can't steal something and run out of a store, then sue when the store owner or employee physically stops you. Well, I guess you can sue and force the store to defend itself, but the store does have a defense.

Can you cite your source? I'd like to read this law for myself. I find it hard to believe because it invites all kinds of potential problems. Perhaps WA state law is "friendlier".

If I lift a $2 candy bar and run out of the store, one employee may think its reasonable to grab my arm (I'd agree), another may think they can tackle me to the ground, and yet another may believe it's permissable to tackle and inflict pain(punch to face, arm bar, kick, etc. etc.). Leaving those decisions to unqualified individuals leaves a company and the public vulnerable.

Even worse, what if ANY of the above happened and the person in fact had no merchandise on them? Or were detained, found nothing, and detained further because someone was certain they had shoplifted?

In general, I like to believe state laws protect the rights of the majority(non criminal) and just can't see some states allowing this type of behavior by businesses. If not, I can only hope I hit the jackpot by grabbing the attention of some over zealous power tripping employee thinking I'm shoplifting in one of these states. What a great pay day that would be. :D

[adamerr]

Can you cite your source? I'd like to read this law for myself. I find it hard to believe because it invites all kinds of potential problems. Perhaps WA state law is "friendlier".

If I lift a $2 candy bar and run out of the store, one employee may think its reasonable to grab my arm (I'd agree), another may think they can tackle me to the ground, and yet another may believe it's permissable to tackle and inflict pain(punch to face, arm bar, kick, etc. etc.). Leaving those decisions to unqualified individuals leaves a company and the public vulnerable.

Even worse, what if ANY of the above happened and the person in fact had no merchandise on them? Or were detained, found nothing, and detained further because someone was certain they had shoplifted?

In general, I like to believe state laws protect the rights of the majority(non criminal) and just can't see some states allowing this type of behavior by businesses. If not, I can only hope I hit the jackpot by grabbing the attention of some over zealous power tripping employee thinking I'm shoplifting in one of these states. What a great pay day that would be. :D

i thought the act of defence had to be proportionate to the crime in question.

say if you did steal a $2 candy bar, the shop owning cant pull out a shot gun and slug you in the head.

[TexasAg]

To clarify information on this situation, I paid for all 4 phones in full, I renewed my contracts for all 4 phones. I did not activate the phones at the store I was originally told I did not have to. It seems that the policy is inconsistent, even from all of the post listed here which I thank you for. I was attacked outside of the store by store employees for not activating the phones. I do have limited video which was sent to me. I chose not to post it. I have not decided what action I will take. I did call the regional manager of the store , twice and have not recieved a return call.

LB01, I have no idea what really happened in your situation. I don't know if you did anything wrong or not. I was simply responding to someone who said a business could never stop someone in America who is believed to be shoplifting. We've had different versions of what really happened in your situation (assuming you are actually the person who is being talked about in the original post), and I'm not about to say I believe one party over another without ever hearing the other side or seeing the video evidence that is supposed to exist.

Can you cite your source? I'd like to read this law for myself. I find it hard to believe because it invites all kinds of potential problems. Perhaps WA state law is "friendlier".

This is where I found it.
http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/menugetf.cgi?COMMONQUERY=LAWS

[iPaul]

The law surrounding citizen's arrests does not make anyone who feels like being a hero a police officer. If you think you see a crime being committed, you can conduct a citizen's arrest but you are NOT entitled to any of the protections afforded to actual police officers and can be held completely liable for your actions. It probably would have been better if Apple Store employees did not touch anyone.

That said, we don't know the full details of this situation. If he paid for the phones, he had activated AT&T service on them. What he would have skipped was only the unbricking on iTunes. I'm not sure why that's such a big deal.

[quagmire]

The law surrounding citizen's arrests does not make anyone who feels like being a hero a police officer. If you think you see a crime being committed, you can conduct a citizen's arrest but you are NOT entitled to any of the protections afforded to actual police officers and can be held completely liable for your actions. It probably would have been better if Apple Store employees did not touch anyone.

That said, we don't know the full details of this situation. If he paid for the phones, he had activated AT&T service on them. What he would have skipped was only the unbricking on iTunes. I'm not sure why that's such a big deal.

You're entitled to some protection( at least in my state) as no one would do a citizens arrest if the thief would turn around and sue them.

[mkoesel]

Not if the person who has it, the guy who posted above, has chosen to not release it.

"Lots of people saw this and he has been getting video of the incident from people."

As far as I'm concerned this whole thread is fake. Sure, it might be real, but who cares? Believing so with no evidence does me absolutely no good while disbelieving it does absolutely no harm.

No video = didn't happen.

[iNfowarrior]

I find it kind of hard to believe (not saying you're lying or anything), but it's stupid for the Apple employees to "STOLE" one of the iPhones from him. Why not just let him go since they got all of his information to track him down later?

So, the guy paid for 3 and only got 2???

What's even more stupid is that they knocked a camera phone off of other people hands, isn't it illegal??

If all of this was true, he should sue Apple's a$$! get a free unlimited supply of iPhone for life! lol

Well have you ever talked to an Apple retail employee before? 99.% are people you'd never want to know or even talk to outside of the store (or inside the store for that matter). They are some seriously deranged folk. They are the definition of elitist on the local level. They have no power, no authority, no right whatsoever to lay a hand on a paid customer.

The employee who went for the camera phone recording the event is in big trouble. Not only did he assault the customer, but a bystander and his private property as well!!! Insane.

[iNfowarrior]

No video = didn't happen.

Even with this comment, your are still 10X more open minded than most people. Some people can be shown a video of something, and it still didn't happen....at least in their head.

[Cabrewolf]

Many years ago I was shoplifting some gum and was confronted outside the store, just after leaving. I told the two employees to let me pass. When one grabbed me I knocked him out, causing the other to grab me and, he was also quickly knocked out (I'm not small and am/was a martial arts expert). Needless to say, when the police arrived moments later, both men were arrest (after a trip to the hospital) for assault. I received an apology from the store.

There is rarely justification to touch someone outside of a store and, when they have paid, that justification only further dwindles.

[freediverdude]

The force used here makes me think that there must be something more than just unbricking going on with the iTunes activation. Like maybe there's some loophole to unlocking it or something if it isn't activated in iTunes. Otherwise there would be no point to physically trying to keep someone from leaving after purchasing the phones and signing up for the plan.

side comment- wow I forgot to change my signature since iPhone 3G day....

[mb2008]

I call BS because.....4 phones for 2 guys? really? who were the other two purchasers? Because every thing I've read to this point is "one per person".

[quagmire]

Many years ago I was shoplifting some gum and was confronted outside the store, just after leaving. I told the two employees to let me pass. When one grabbed me I knocked him out, causing the other to grab me and, he was also quickly knocked out (I'm not small and am/was a martial arts expert). Needless to say, when the police arrived moments later, both men were arrest (after a trip to the hospital) for assault. I received an apology from the store.

There is rarely justification to touch someone outside of a store and, when they have paid, that justification only further dwindles.

Depending on your states law, that is messed up IMHO. They tried to detain you because you shoplifted and you resisted which then warranted a bit more force to be used, but wasn't used. I am not going to go much more into it since I don't want to get political about it, etc.

[Dejavu]

I found it.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU

[DeaconGraves]

I found it.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU

You know... the second I clicked (before it loaded), I realized what I had done. :p

BTW, despite arguments in this thread, that video IS assault.

[noapple]

I call BS because.....4 phones for 2 guys? really? who were the other two purchasers? Because every thing I've read to this point is "one per person".



Ever consider that one was for his wife? The friend already said 1 of the 4 was his. So one for the guy that was beat up. So that only leaves one extra. So at that rate it doesn't seem far fetched to by 4.

[dancavallaro]

Ever consider that one was for his wife? The friend already said 1 of the 4 was his. So one for the guy that was beat up. So that only leaves one extra. So at that rate it doesn't seem far fetched to by 4.

It's far fetched when you consider that one person can only buy one phone, or 2 phones if they are starting a family plan. So if one was for the friend, then how did the other dude buy 3 phones?

[mac'inmama]

It's far fetched when you consider that one person can only buy one phone, or 2 phones if they are starting a family plan. So if one was for the friend, then how did the other dude buy 3 phones?

I may be wrong, but I believe that if you are a company, you can buy more than one. Maybe he had a corporate deal or something.

And yeah, I knew when I clicked the link to that video that I was going to see something really horrific. Thanks y'all!

[Kadman]

Many years ago I was shoplifting some gum and was confronted outside the store, just after leaving. I told the two employees to let me pass. When one grabbed me I knocked him out, causing the other to grab me and, he was also quickly knocked out (I'm not small and am/was a martial arts expert). Needless to say, when the police arrived moments later, both men were arrest (after a trip to the hospital) for assault. I received an apology from the store.

There is rarely justification to touch someone outside of a store and, when they have paid, that justification only further dwindles.


Are you Chuck Norris? 'Cause I heard Chuck Norris doesn't stand in line for an iPhone. Steve Jobs lines up rows of iPhones for Chuck Norris.

[AnotherLabRat]

i thought the act of defence had to be proportionate to the crime in question.

say if you did steal a $2 candy bar, the shop owning cant pull out a shot gun and slug you in the head.

I agree comlpetely, which is why I have wonder why ANY state would give ordinary citizens the right/power to make those decisions. Quite frankly, most people are not trained to make appropriate decisions of that nature under those kinds(criminal) of circumstances.

There are some seriously power tripping folk out there, not to mention all the derranged people that are just looking for a reason to inflict harm on someone. People do some seriously stupid stuff, so I wouldn't be surprised at all if I read of a store owner shooting a shoplifter for taking $2 worth of merchandise.

To post above:
Awesome!! another Chuck Norris line! :D

[Jonobigblind]

Dare I say (at the risk of being roasted)...get over it and stop the talk of law suits. If the guy is a man he should be able to take a little slapping without crying to anyone or have four pages of postings quoting laws from various states.

Seriously, you guys are a little too quick to jump on the bandwagon - it's just real life and I'm sure he could walk away without anything more than dented pride...how much is that worth in your courts -$14m???

I guess he'll be wheeling himself around with a neck brace on and suddenly have deveoped an aversion to Apple stores?

come on, have a bit of common sense, put it behind you all and get back to the decent topics of apps/reception/deliveries etc.

Not wanting to offend anyone - don't sue me please :) - just felt compelled to add my two pennies for a steer back into what should be reality.

[noapple]

Dare I say (at the risk of being roasted)...get over it and stop the talk of law suits. If the guy is a man he should be able to take a little slapping without crying to anyone or have four pages of postings quoting laws from various states.
Seriously, you guys are a little too quick to jump on the bandwagon - it's just real life and I'm sure he could walk away without anything more than dented pride...how much is that worth in your courts -$14m???



If he was truly assaulted then the employee needs to be held responsible and if a law suit is what it takes then so be it. Your suggestion is that we can't assault each other as we desire and the other person should just "get over it".

Should he get $14m? No. Should the employee be fired and charges pressed if the assault did happen? Yes. Should that apple store be responsible? Yes as he was their employee working on their behalf.

I know a lot of people say no youtube so it didn't happen. I know not everything gets on youtube. Some people are decent enough to take pictures and film things for the benefit of another and not to spread it as much as possible.

[dl13]

wait a minute, i don't feel like reading all the stuff in the middle, how the hell were you guys able to leave the store without activating it? the employees at the king of prussia apple store absolutely would not let me purchase an iphone and then take it to at&t to fix any billing issues. they wouldn't even let me attempt to purchase my iphone and activate it there because the system would deny me and lock up the phone (which at that point at&t has to take care of and i was willing to go this route). i'm really pissed off now that people were able to purchase the iphone and activate it elsewhere

[sibruk]

The "no video = it didn't happen" line so many here are taking is moronic. So if somebody goes into a restroom to take a pee, you wouldn't believe they had actually taken a pee unless you saw a video?! There isn't video footage of everything everyone is doing at all times across the entire world! Let's hope none of you are ever called for jury service.

Whether the story sounds believable to you or not is another matter. Sure, some video would make it a lot more difficult to refute these claims. In fact, I would love to see it. Apple needs some more bad press at the moment IMO, the way they are stringing out the demand for this product launch.

[jrbdmb]

Many years ago I was shoplifting some gum and was confronted outside the store, just after leaving. I told the two employees to let me pass. When one grabbed me I knocked him out, causing the other to grab me and, he was also quickly knocked out (I'm not small and am/was a martial arts expert). Needless to say, when the police arrived moments later, both men were arrest (after a trip to the hospital) for assault. I received an apology from the store.

That reminds me of when I was a bit younger ... I was in NYC, browsing through the Tiffany store on 5th Ave. I passed by a counter when an older woman was looking an an enormous gold bracelet. I thought to myself "my lady might like that." So I grabbed it and ran like hell for the door. When confronted by security, I pulled out my 9mm, shot one of the bastards in the stomach, and the other in the leg. Once outside, I found a nearby cop and explained how the guards had offended me. We went back inside, the guards were arrested, and I was given matching Tiffany earrings for my trouble. I also got a store credit to compensate for my blood-stained shirt. As we walked outside, the policeman congratulated me for "sticking it to the man."

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: [/sarcasm off]