$550 box????

[boshii]

I was just looking around ebay to see how much a 16 GB 3G would be worth when I stumbled upon this..

http://cgi.ebay.com/iPhone-3G-Black-16-GB-Box-and-Instructions_W0QQitemZ170239921195QQihZ007QQcategoryZ3312QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

I wonder if people read the description of what they're bidding on...

[Geffen]

looks like theres 26 bids that have been placed on that box these people must not be reading the discription :)

[lkeslinger]

I read everything when i buy something off of eBay. They're dumb, lol.

[boshii]

The thing is that the highest bidder right now has 0 feedback. I wonder if he's really gonna buy it.

[NiroshanMan]

haha this would be fun to tryout sometime. Its not like you are lying, you are telling the truth, maybe not blatantly saying there is no 16gb iPhone that comes with it but this is legitamite. might be worth trying out for yourself if someone with decent feed back buys it

[boshii]

haha this would be fun to tryout sometime. Its not like you are lying, you are telling the truth, maybe not blatantly saying there is no 16gb iPhone that comes with it but this is legitamite. might be worth trying out for yourself if someone with decent feed back buys it

The guy's being shady though. I asked him if it was really just a box and instructions and he said yea. But he didn't post that question on the item page. The only question he posted was about how long he had it.

wow it jumped up $60 in the last minute

:eek::eek::eek:

[dave006]

I was just looking around ebay to see how much a 16 GB 3G would be worth when I stumbled upon this..

http://cgi.ebay.com/iPhone-3G-Black-16-GB-Box-and-Instructions_W0QQitemZ170239921195QQihZ007QQcategoryZ3312QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

I wonder if people read the description of what they're bidding on...It looks like it is a hijacked account. Take a look and the seller has not had any activity since this time last year.:(

[LeeTom]

The guy's being shady though. I asked him if it was really just a box and instructions and he said yea. But he didn't post that question on the item page. The only question he posted was about how long he had it.

I don't think that's shady - why post the answer to a question that's painfully clear in the title and description?

[Geffen]

Amazing that empty box sold for $650.00 LOL!

[boshii]

I think I'm gonna try my luck ;)

[LeeTom]

looks like you're not the only one trying their luck:

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&dfsp=32&from=R40&satitle=iphone+3g+box+instructions&sacat=-1%26catref%3DC6&bs=Search&a25662=-24&a87168=-24&a25664=-24&a6=-24&a35=-24&a33112=-24&a26093=-24&a10244=-24&alist=a25662%2Ca87168%2Ca25664%2Ca6%2Ca35%2Ca33112%2Ca26093%2Ca10244%2Ca3801&pfmode=1&reqtype=1&gcs=1440&pfid=1720&pf_query=iphone+3g+box+instructions&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=98122&sabfmts=1&saobfmts=insif&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=32%26fsoo%3D2&fgtp=

[brvheart]

this reminds me of a song....

"Here's your sign"

[thedarkhorse]

every time some new hyped technology comes out people rip people off with selling the box on ebay.

But it doesn't bother me, because when I am paying $100s of dollars for something online, especially ebay, I take the minute or so it takes to read the description and look at the pics. If you can just frivolously click hundreds of dollars away without even reading what you are buying then it's your own fault.
But then again maybe it's just the naive people who trust the internet and don't think anyone would want to do anything wrong to them through it. The same people who have a rich royal uncle in Nigeria that passed away and has left them millions in inheritance.

[higgalls]

I was just looking around ebay to see how much a 16 GB 3G would be worth when I stumbled upon this..

http://cgi.ebay.com/iPhone-3G-Black-16-GB-Box-and-Instructions_W0QQitemZ170239921195QQihZ007QQcategoryZ3312QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

I wonder if people read the description of what they're bidding on...

Thats hillarious. I will be interested to see what feedback is left to see whether the guy went through with it and actually paid for it.

[boshii]

looks like you're not the only one trying their luck:

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&dfsp=32&from=R40&satitle=iphone+3g+box+instructions&sacat=-1%26catref%3DC6&bs=Search&a25662=-24&a87168=-24&a25664=-24&a6=-24&a35=-24&a33112=-24&a26093=-24&a10244=-24&alist=a25662%2Ca87168%2Ca25664%2Ca6%2Ca35%2Ca33112%2Ca26093%2Ca10244%2Ca3801&pfmode=1&reqtype=1&gcs=1440&pfid=1720&pf_query=iphone+3g+box+instructions&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=98122&sabfmts=1&saobfmts=insif&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=32%26fsoo%3D2&fgtp=

haha!! one of the guys even used the same picture and description as the first one that sold for $650!

[brendanryder]

wow, thats sad.
i really hope someone dosent actually pay for it, but onyl because i couldnt see the result. if it was a MR seller i would totally want him to sell it haha.
ill have to try this sometime.

[Macnator]

LOL Its at $650 dollars now!

[dukebound85]

Amazing that empty box sold for $650.00 LOL!

LOL Its at $650 dollars now!


yup

[jmckechnie]

I sent him a message asking if people knew it was only the box. I guess we'll see what he says.

[NiroshanMan]

I think I'm gonna try my luck ;)

If you do try it out post the link and well see what happens!

[boshii]

If you do try it out post the link and well see what happens!

I'm watching these right now

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&dfsp=32&from=R40&satitle=iphone+3g+box+instructions&sacat=-1%26catref%3DC6&bs=Search&a25662=-24&a87168=-24&a25664=-24&a6=-24&a35=-24&a33112=-24&a26093=-24&a10244=-24&alist=a25662%2Ca87168%2Ca25664%2Ca6%2Ca35%2Ca33112%2Ca26093%2Ca10244%2Ca3801&pfmode=1&reqtype=1&gcs=1440&pfid=1720&pf_query=iphone+3g+box+instructions&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=98122&sabfmts=1&saobfmts=insif&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=32%26fsoo%3D2&fgtp=

If they go for anything more than $50 I will have to part with my box :cool:

[yg17]

haha this would be fun to tryout sometime. Its not like you are lying, you are telling the truth, maybe not blatantly saying there is no 16gb iPhone that comes with it but this is legitamite. might be worth trying out for yourself if someone with decent feed back buys it

I once saw an episode of Judge Judy where an eBay buyer bought what she thought was a cell phone, but the really small print in the auction said it was for just a picture of the phone, and that's what she got. Judge Judy tore the seller a new one and ruled in favor of the buyer. I know Judge Judy is hardly an accurate representation of the law, but it's probably not worth trying in case the buyer takes you to Judge Judy.

[NiroshanMan]

I once saw an episode of Judge Judy where an eBay buyer bought what she thought was a cell phone, but the really small print in the auction said it was for just a picture of the phone, and that's what she got. Judge Judy tore the seller a new one and ruled in favor of the buyer. I know Judge Judy is hardly an accurate representation of the law, but it's probably not worth trying in case the buyer takes you to Judge Judy.

Can they though? I guess fine print is something different. But in the links above there is nothing hidden just stating the obvious, maybe not in a way that can be understood easily but they are telling the truth. Hey when i always buy something on ebay i always check the page sometimes even like 5 times to make sure im getting what I really want. Its not my problem some people don't have the time to realize what they are buying. Some people are impulse buyers on ebay they just go for things they think they know they are and just bid cause its cheap...

just my 2 cents

[yg17]

Can they though? I guess fine print is something different. But in the links above there is nothing hidden just stating the obvious, maybe not in a way that can be understood easily but they are telling the truth. Hey when i always buy something on ebay i always check the page sometimes even like 5 times to make sure im getting what I really want. Its not my problem some people don't have the time to realize what they are buying. Some people are impulse buyers on ebay they just go for things they think they know they are and just bid cause its cheap...

just my 2 cents
It's tough to say what the actual legal ramifications are. I wouldn't want to risk it though

[albinoAZN]

They in no refer infer that the phone is included. I don't see how they're in the wrong.

[dukebound85]

They in no refer infer that the phone is included. I don't see how they're in the wrong.

i agree. they say it the box and instructions clearly

[TimothyB]

I think it's shady when a seller puts something up like a empty box or iphone e-mail address and has a buy-it now option for $500 or of what you'd expect to pay for the phone, not an empty box. So it's obvious they are trying to get suckers to not read carefully and use the buy-it now option for something that's obviously no where near that cost.

This was done a lot for gaming console boxes.

They in no refer infer that the phone is included. I don't see how they're in the wrong.

The title is a little misleading. It says plainly a 16 gig iPhone, and the part of the box and manual is too far separated by the *** quoting that. So at first glance, to some it could be misconstrued as an iPhone with the box and manual included.

Though, obviously anyone bidding $650 should take a few seconds to read the description, if they don't, they deserve to get scammed.

Reminds me how a teacher in Elementary school taught us a lesson about reading instructions. She gave us a test, simple enough to start and finish without reading anything. Practically only one student read the instruction paragraph, which the last line said to ignore everything before, put your pencil down, and do not do the test. The rest of us were suckers.

[Sun Baked]

Reminds me how a teacher in Elementary school taught us a lesson about reading instructions. She gave us a test, simple enough to start and finish without reading anything. Practically only one student read the instruction paragraph, which the last line said to ignore everything before, put your pencil down, and do not do the test. The rest of us were suckers.

Had a test like that in college, but the test was soo easy it only took 15 minutes to do and I checked it twice.

Though I though it was odd that the rest of the class struggled the entire time.

I just used all the shortcuts the instructor showed us, while everyone else did the longhand methods.

[alexmarchuk]

I just listed mine, so go ahead guys, anyone in need of some extras (just incase you lost yours)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330253940700

Edit: WTF I just listed my box SECONDS ago, and it sold WTF

[boshii]

WTF I just listed my box SECONDS ago, and it sold WTF

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

that was a nice description by the way.

let us know if they pay!

[sr5878]

WTF I just listed my box SECONDS ago, and it sold WTF

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:


WOW!

if they end up paying, let me know!

[richard.mac]

I just listed mine, so go ahead guys, anyone in need of some extras (just incase you lost yours)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330253940700

:eek: the buyer cannot be serious! im simply gobsmacked… is he an eBay store seller? nice description :thumbsup:

[alexmarchuk]

:eek: the buyer cannot be serious! im simply gobsmacked… is he an eBay store seller? nice description :thumbsup:

You've got to get the buyers that pay QUICK! Unfortunately, this person realized their mistake and replied nicely. So no claim made with ebay :P

"I am very sorry. I didn't realize that your auction didnt include the phone until I purchased buy it now. I am very sorry but I am unable to complete this transaction.

Best Regards,
Ryan"

Thought, I've re-listed the auction, and I had this message, lol.

"wtf u almost fooled me into buying this I'm glad I read your description b4 clicking on the buy it now link
$300 for freakin box that most ppl end up throwing away nways!!!! "

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330253941402&_trksid=p3907.m32&_trkparms=tab%3DSelling

(wow views are skyrocketing)

[sr5878]

alex, i would strongly suggest removing both sets of ** in your listing. it could be argued that you are using misleading keywords.

[alexmarchuk]

alex, i would strongly suggest removing both sets of ** in your listing. it could be argued that you are using misleading keywords.

Why is it misleading? It's an iPhone 3G 16Gb white box all those keywords are these.

[boshii]

You've got to get the buyers that pay QUICK! Unfortunately, this person realized their mistake and replied nicely. So no claim made with ebay :P

"I am very sorry. I didn't realize that your auction didnt include the phone until I purchased buy it now. I am very sorry but I am unable to complete this transaction.

Best Regards,
Ryan"

Thought, I've re-listed the auction, and I had this message, lol.

"wtf u almost fooled me into buying this I'm glad I read your description b4 clicking on the buy it now link
$300 for freakin box that most ppl end up throwing away nways!!!! "

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330253941402&_trksid=p3907.m32&_trkparms=tab%3DSelling

(wow views are skyrocketing)

wow someone bit again

alex, i would strongly suggest removing both sets of ** in your listing. it could be argued that you are using misleading keywords.

i think the ** actually highlight what you are bidding on

[alexmarchuk]

i think the ** actually highlight what you are bidding on

I'm sorry, what's the word in the asterisks? Can't follow the conversation...

[boshii]

I'm sorry, what's the word in the asterisks? Can't follow the conversation...

we're talking about the asterisks around **box/headphones/etc.** in your listing

[lkeslinger]

This is actually pretty funny. Nice description of your white iPhone box. Haha.

[sr5878]

see, i see it as the things in ** being EXTRAS included with the "iPhone 3G White 16GB".

just be careful someone doesn't use the same logic as i did and file a claim against you. i saw that judge judy episode as well... it wasn't a happy ending for the seller.

[alexmarchuk]

see, i see it as the things in ** being EXTRAS included with the "iPhone 3G White 16GB".

just be careful someone doesn't use the same logic as i did and file a claim against you. i saw that judge judy episode as well... it wasn't a happy ending for the seller.

I'd argue, they'd need to pay my listing fees haha.

anyway: I hope this one is better: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330253946757

[sr5878]

did that second auction fall through as well?

[alexmarchuk]

did that second auction fall through as well?

Didn't get a reply back, thought I sent a nice message saying if they didn't want to pay, they just leave some feedback ;)

[dlamin517]

On one side you are being immoral by attempting to get suckers to buy the box.
One the other side you are making serious dough off of stupid people whose their own fault.

I cant quite decide which side i would like to be on.


It wouldnt be worth selling the box for just a little amount because if you have all the boxes and accessories then the resale value goes up. Its your choice. I am keeping all my stuff in a drawer for when i want to sell it

[iWizzard]

I´m not sure that actions like this is enforceable, a contract* must be understood by both parties, in this case the buyer has clearly not understood the cataract he accepted therefore it is most likely not valid.

There is a legal term that defines this principle that I can’t remember at the moment so I can not find the detention.

* A contract is a promise or a set of promises for the breach of which the law gives a remedy, or the performance of which the law in some way recognizes as a duty.

[Phil A.]

Definitely out of order to try and scam someone into buying a box when they think they're buying the entire phone, and that's all it is - a scam: OK so you sort of make it clear there is no phone by not including it in the pictures and not mentioning it, but it's fair to say you are relying on people thinking it includes a phone and on that basis it's a scam

[GR33NIE]

LOL this is very amusing! Feel sorry for someone if they have paid up though! :(

[aosman]

This always happens; people should really start paying attention.

[Sweetbike40]

Wow. I wonder how this will play out? The buyer doesn't have much of a case. Well, he's got a $650 CASE!!! Really, i don't think he'll be able to get a refund. The photos show only a BOX. OMG. What idiots!!!

[tompon1923]

The people that bid on this item, are insanely desperate for an Iphone.
It is such a clear ebay listing that it is just, to good to believe I must say.
Wonder if he gets a negative rating about this one :p

[NiroshanMan]

The people that bid on this item, are insanely desperate for an Iphone.
It is such a clear ebay listing that it is just, to good to believe I must say.
Wonder if he gets a negative rating about this one :p

I don't think sellers can get negative feedback anymore. When i was selling my iPhone in the beginning of June i kept getting reminded by eBay that i couldn't get negative feedback. I don't know how but w/e.

[Phil A.]

I don't think sellers can get negative feedback anymore. When i was selling my iPhone in the beginning of June i kept getting reminded by eBay that i couldn't get negative feedback. I don't know how but w/e.
I think that's the wrong way round: Sellers can no longer leave negative feedback against their buyers

[jessica.]

This was my favorite Q&A:

Q: How long have you had it?
A: ??? Since Friday... Launch day...

[boshii]

Look how much this guy's box is going for.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=110271810151

The funny part is he charges tax if shipped to CA.

[higgalls]

Look how much this guy's box is going for.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=110271810151

The funny part is he charges tax if shipped to CA.

Ok, this is just getting stupid now. People have seen a way to scam other people and have tried to copy it. Its pretty pathetic (yes it was funny the first time, but not so funny now that people have seen how they can rip others off and are taking advantage of it).

Never mind. Hopefully no one really hands money over (unless they really really want just a box, and in that case it should come with a psychologist appointment too).

[eplchamps0304]

I dont see any scams in this. If you dont read the auction then its your fault. I have sold electronic boxes in the past, some people do need them. What does it take to read the auction. Even the pics show only the open box and manuals.

[mwchris]

Why is it misleading? It's an iPhone 3G 16Gb white box all those keywords are these.

***This is not addressed at your auction, but these types of auctions in general***


While I agree that it is the own persons' fault for not fully reading the auction, and not asking questions before they bid I think the LEGAL issue is the sellers intent.

The seller is intentionally attempting to capitalize on someone's misunderstanding of the advertised item BY INTENTIONALLY NOT stating that there is NO IPHONE included in the auction (misleading, or leading to believe otherwise no matter how clear the seller thanks they are being).

Sure, if some one is willing to pay $650 for a box that does not say much about their intelligence, however, if the seller willing accepts $650 for a box, that sure says a lot about their character AND their intentions for making the auction.

There is no doubt that should something like this be brought to court (granted this is e-bay and doubtfully would occur), the seller would most likely be ordered to pay back most if not all of the money.

Chris

[higgalls]

Sure, if some one is willing to pay $650 for a box that does not say much about their intelligence, however, if the seller willing accepts $650 for a box, that sure says a lot about their character AND their intentions for making the auction.


Absolutely agree. Yes people should read and be more observant as to what they are purchasing, but as a seller you also have a responsibility to make sure the auction is clear (which people are purposly not specifically mentioning that there is NO iPhone included so that they can scam people - now that is wrong).

[alexmarchuk]

***This is not addressed at your auction, but these types of auctions in general***


While I agree that it is the own persons' fault for not fully reading the auction, and not asking questions before they bid I think the LEGAL issue is the sellers intent.

The seller is intentionally attempting to capitalize on someone's misunderstanding of the advertised item BY INTENTIONALLY NOT stating that there is NO IPHONE included in the auction (misleading, or leading to believe otherwise no matter how clear the seller thanks they are being).

Sure, if some one is willing to pay $650 for a box that does not say much about their intelligence, however, if the seller willing accepts $650 for a box, that sure says a lot about their character AND their intentions for making the auction.

There is no doubt that should something like this be brought to court (granted this is e-bay and doubtfully would occur), the seller would most likely be ordered to pay back most if not all of the money.

Chris

Oh, please. Court? Haha.

So, you're saying that If I were to sell a box for the iPhone with the title "iPhone White 16Gb Box w/charger/instructions/headphones" starting at $0.99 and it goes up to whatever amount in the hundreds, I'm wrong?

Absolutely not. That's like saying an Xbox 360 sold above retail, so now the seller is at fault, because their auction went too high. Bull. That's the whole point of an auction.

My last auction fell through, though, ebay sent me an email stating:

"We're pleased to have you as part of the eBay Community. However, the following

listing(s) were removed and all fees have been credited to your account:


iPhone 3G White 16GB Box w/ charger-headphones-manuals!


Because the iPhone is in such high demand, requirements have been put in place for

iPhone sales. These requirements are for the protection of our Community:

- The listing needs to include a unique photo of the item or items, and your User

ID needs to be clearly shown in the picture (watermarks will not be accepted)."

I'll just re-list it with my username.

My auction never hinted at including an iPhone, just the box and extras.

This is an auction for a piece of history, can be handed down to your grand children for generations to come. If you win this auction you will receive a retail iPhone 16Gb white box, which contains a brand new charger with brand new sealed headphones, NEVER USED!

I acquired this beautifully designed box (probably designed by Jonathan Ive too) on launch day JULY 11TH, 2008 a memorable date. You will be stunned by sliding the top of the box cover off, it's like magic, with soft interior to protect whatever you want to place inside.

It's only a few days old. You'll also receive a brand new never used Apple iPhone 3G cloth to wipe any devices you want, along with beautiful Apple stickers too!

[thor79]

Buyers need to pay more attention...that much is sure.

Sellers need to stop selling their boxes. It's unethical what they are doing...nothing illegal about it since all the auctions I have seen were clearly for just the box, instructions, misc accessories and not the iPhone itself.

You are knowingly taking advantage of people too stupid to actually read and understand the description...shame on you.

Honestly if I were in charge of eBay your accounts would be suspended permanently.


edit: Though I would say all the auctions I have seen like this all break the miscategorization part of the user agreement:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/search-manipulation.html


Listing an item in a category that is not representative of the item being sold, or listing an item outside of a required category. (Miscategorization)

Now correct me if I'm wrong...but the box, instructions, and associated accessories don't exactly fall under the "Cell Phones & PDAs > Cell Phones & Smartphones" part of eBay. Since there is no actual Cell Phone, PDA, or Smartphone included.

They should go under "Cell Phone & PDA Accessories".

Filed a report on these three auctions...if you're going to rip someone off at least put it in the proper category:
http://cell-phones.search.ebay.com/box-and-instructions_Cell-Phones-Smartphones_W0QQa10244ZQ2d24QQa25662ZQ2d24QQa25664ZQ2d24QQa26093ZQ2d24QQa33112ZQ2d24QQa35ZQ2d24QQa6Z Q2d24QQa87168ZQ2d24QQalistZa25662Q2ca87168Q2ca25664Q2ca6Q2ca35Q2ca33112Q2ca26093Q2ca10244Q2ca3801QQc atrefZC6QQcoactionZcompareQQcoentrypageZsearchQQcopagenumZ1QQdfspZ32QQfclZ3QQfposZ60555QQfromZR2QQfs ooZ2QQfsopZ32QQftrtZ1QQftrvZ1QQgcsZ1440QQpf_queryZboxQ20andQ20instructionsQQpfidZ1720QQpfmodeZ1QQreq typeZ2QQsabfmtsZ1QQsacatZ3312QQsadisZ200QQsargnZQ2d1QQsaslcZ2QQsbrftogZ1QQsofocusZbs

[mwchris]

Oh, please. Court? Haha.

So, you're saying that If I were to sell a box for the iPhone with the title "iPhone White 16Gb Box w/charger/instructions/headphones" starting at $0.99 and it goes up to whatever amount in the hundreds, I'm wrong?

Absolutely not. That's like saying an Xbox 360 sold above retail, so now the seller is at fault, because their auction went too high. Bull. That's the whole point of an auction.

My last auction fell through, though, ebay sent me an email stating:

"We're pleased to have you as part of the eBay Community. However, the following

listing(s) were removed and all fees have been credited to your account:


iPhone 3G White 16GB Box w/ charger-headphones-manuals!


Because the iPhone is in such high demand, requirements have been put in place for

iPhone sales. These requirements are for the protection of our Community:

- The listing needs to include a unique photo of the item or items, and your User

ID needs to be clearly shown in the picture (watermarks will not be accepted)."

I'll just re-list it with my username.

My auction never hinted at including an iPhone, just the box and extras.

This is an auction for a piece of history, can be handed down to your grand children for generations to come. If you win this auction you will receive a retail iPhone 16Gb white box, which contains a brand new charger with brand new sealed headphones, NEVER USED!

I acquired this beautifully designed box (probably designed by Jonathan Ive too) on launch day JULY 11TH, 2008 a memorable date. You will be stunned by sliding the top of the box cover off, it's like magic, with soft interior to protect whatever you want to place inside.

It's only a few days old. You'll also receive a brand new never used Apple iPhone 3G cloth to wipe any devices you want, along with beautiful Apple stickers too!


I never said YOU were wrong, I said the type of auctions where people INTENTIONALLY sell an item without being completely clear of the terms with the INTENT to mislead or deceive the buyer and therefore profit from said deception is wrong. If you fall into this category then perhaps I am talking to you.

Now, in my OPINION, what YOU are doing is wrong. Regardless of how clear you think you are being you are using the current hype and demand for the 3g iPhone in an attempt to profit an absorbent amount by intentionally NOT telling buyers there is no phone included in the auction. Again, this is my opinion.

If the sellers INTENT is NOT to mislead the buyer and profit an absorbent amount from the auction then WHY NOT plain as day state THERE IS NO PHONE INCLUDED?

I am quite positive that regardless of what really occurs, the law is being broken from the sellers INTENT to deceive potential buyers into, whether purposely or not, to purchase their product for an absorbent amount of money by which they make significant profit.

Aside from the LEGAL standpoint, do you have no ethics or morals?
1. If your INTENT is not to deceive or capitalize on the current hype then just state clearly there is no phone included in the auction.
2. If you can sleep at night after accepting several hundred dollars for a BOX, then you sir are a crook and have significantly lower moral and ethical standards that I suspected anyone on MR to have.


I acknowledge that sometimes people get out of control in bidding, but that is where YOUR moral and ethical standards come in. I have sold many things on e-bay; one case in point was some Bose loud speakers. A person bid them up to an absorbent amount which they were truly not worth. I simply emailed the winner and said I am sorry but I will not sell them for that price and offered him a lower price. The winner was happy and I was happy. Could I have slept having received the absorbent amount of money? Sure thing. Would I have been pissed if someone took advantage of me just because I was looking for a deal. You better believe it.

Remember the golden rule.

Another example: Newspapers

The New York Times is written at a College Level.

Most local papers (depending on the area) are written at an upper elementary to middle school level.

Consider your audience - just because someone is not as smart as you does not in any way make it fair for you to INTENTIONALLY deceive them. By doing so you become no different than any other common criminal.

Take the elitist, I'm smarter than you, wordsmith, bull somewhere else. It is garbage like these auctions that have helped to ruin e-bay.

[alexmarchuk]

STOP THE PRESSES! PEOPLE ARE MAKING MONEY OFF STUPID PEOPLE!

Get over it, it's a business in itself. Bidders that get out of control are responsible for their own actions, if they accidently bid they are required to pay that amount, whether they did it by accident or not. They can't retract the bid because of their excitement.

It's been said before and I'll say it again, due to the nature of eBay and how fast things happen, of course people try to be quick and bid. That's were consequences come into play, you must read the description and view images of the item you're buying. If you don't do that, you shouldn't be whining afterward.

mwchris; eBay ruined itself.

[seattle]

I once saw an episode of Judge Judy where an eBay buyer bought what she thought was a cell phone, but the really small print in the auction said it was for just a picture of the phone, and that's what she got. Judge Judy tore the seller a new one and ruled in favor of the buyer. I know Judge Judy is hardly an accurate representation of the law, but it's probably not worth trying in case the buyer takes you to Judge Judy.

In the Judge Judy case the seller lost because she listed a weight of 10 ozs or something like that so Judge Judy said that since the picture did not weigh that much it was misleading and ruled in favor of the the buyer.

[Nicolecat]

Oh WOW...that is awful.

The poor person that ends up with an empty box. :eek:

[mwchris]

STOP THE PRESSES! PEOPLE ARE MAKING MONEY OFF STUPID PEOPLE!

Get over it, it's a business in itself. Bidders that get out of control are responsible for their own actions, if they accidently bid they are required to pay that amount, whether they did it by accident or not. They can't retract the bid because of their excitement.

It's been said before and I'll say it again, due to the nature of eBay and how fast things happen, of course people try to be quick and bid. That's were consequences come into play, you must read the description and view images of the item you're buying. If you don't do that, you shouldn't be whining afterward.

mwchris; eBay ruined itself.


Sure scamming people is a business, a business for crooks, and people who have no morals of ethics.

Sure people get caught up in bidding for an item and may spend more than they can afford, but that is not the issue here, so don't try and change the subject.

Since you ignored what I previously stated, let me repeat it:
If your intent is to cloud the waters so to say, to make it unclear, to mislead, and to then profit from someone's lack of understanding, regardless of how smart they may or may not be, you are a crook.

If your intent is to NOT mislead someone then just write clear as say that there is no iphone included in the action. How hard is that?

It is obvious that you are intentionally trying to scam someone. Regardless of how smart they may or may not be.

I do not understand why you think it is ok to be less than clear about what you are selling in attempt to profit off of the current hype and demand for an actual iphone. You, and the other sellers like you, are crooks.

The fact is that there are uneducated people in this world, and highly educated people, and believe it or not, some of the "dumbest" ones I have met came from the latter category.

Also, as previously stated, take your elitist, I'm smarter than you, bull sh** attitude somewhere else. There are enough ********** in this world already, and we don't need anymore.

[alexmarchuk]

Sure scamming people is a business, a business for crooks, and people who have no morals of ethics.

Sure people get caught up in bidding for an item and may spend more than they can afford, but that is not the issue here, so don't try and change the subject.

Since you ignored what I previously stated, let me repeat it:
If your intent is to cloud the waters so to say, to make it unclear, to mislead, and to then profit from someone's lack of understanding, regardless of how smart they may or may not be, you are a crook.

If your intent is to NOT mislead someone then just write clear as say that there is no iphone included in the action. How hard is that?

It is obvious that you are intentionally trying to scam someone. Regardless of how smart they may or may not be.

I do not understand why you think it is ok to be less than clear about what you are selling in attempt to profit off of the current hype and demand for an actual iphone. You, and the other sellers like you, are crooks.

The fact is that there are uneducated people in this world, and highly educated people, and believe it or not, some of the "dumbest" ones I have met came from the latter category.

Also, as previously stated, take your elitist, I'm smarter than you, bull sh** attitude somewhere else. There are enough ********** in this world already, and we don't need anymore.

And let me tell you, this is my opinion. If you've read my last post, I never intended to actually accept the payment from the winning bidder. I've sent them messages telling them they don't have to pay anything.

I'm a crook? Do you know me? Have I stolen something from your house sometime or another?

[boshii]

And let me tell you, this is my opinion. If you've read my last post, I never intended to actually accept the payment from the winning bidder. I've sent them messages telling them they don't have to pay anything.

I'm a crook? Do you know me? Have I stolen something from your house sometime or another?

It seems like mwchris was burned by a bad ebay auction before. Or he's been scammed somehow before.

[dukebound85]

sheesh people he CLEARLY states its a box and starts the bidding low. if some idiots think its an iphone, that's their problem

hell i still have all my apple product boxes and i can see how some people want them for collectors items.

get off your high horse:cool: he is doing nothing illegal. immoral yes if he takes that high of price but not illegal in any sense of the word

And let me tell you, this is my opinion. If you've read my last post, I never intended to actually accept the payment from the winning bidder. I've sent them messages telling them they don't have to pay anything.

I'm a crook? Do you know me? Have I stolen something from your house sometime or another?

lol then why did you even do it if you wouldnt gain from it? you pay ebay posting fees just for fun??


i would have told the seller that he must pay like 30 bucks or something as the ad was 100% clear and he has a responsibility of following through as he is the winning bidder. would i accept 500 willingly? no but they would have to pay something in my book since it was a legit ad

[platbr]

I'm a crook? Do you know me? Have I stolen something from your house sometime or another?

Do I know you are a crook? Nope.
Do I know whether you took an action that is arguably fraudulent? Yes.

Know what? I think you know it too... because you stated:

I never intended to actually accept the payment from the winning bidder. I've sent them messages telling them they don't have to pay anything.

And yes, I'm a lawyer and I've done my share of internet fraud cases. They were criminal, and they involved eBay, and charges brought in federal district court by the U.S. Attorneys' office.

I hope eBay pulls listings like these.

[alexmarchuk]

lol then why did you even do it if you wouldnt gain from it? you pay ebay posting fees just for fun??


i would have told the seller that he must pay like 30 bucks or something as the ad was 100% clear and he has a responsibility of following through as he is the winning bidder. would i accept 500 willingly? no but they would have to pay something in my book since it was a legit ad

The fees were like $1.28 per auction (I listed 3, 2 got instantly bought and the other was deleted by eBay because I didn't have my name in the pictures)

It's like buying an app in the App Store for $4 and then you find out it sucks. lol just having fun.

(ebay refunded me the fees for the auction they cancelled though)

Do I know you are a crook? Nope.
Do I know whether you took an action that is arguably fraudulent? Yes.

Know what? I think you know it too... because you stated:



And yes, I'm a lawyer and I've done my share of internet fraud cases. They were criminal, and they involved eBay, and charges brought in federal district court by the U.S. Attorneys' office.

I hope eBay pulls listings like these.

Oh please, Internet fraud? Criminal? Go have a word with OJ. Do something that's actually important.

I'm 100% sure this wouldn't stand a chance in court.

[TimothyB]

If someone is going to go on a crusade to stop these auctions, basically making the seller evil because of the stupidity of other people, then why not go and stop info commercial scams, or just general sales tactics at car dealers, electronic stores.

Like when I went to buy the first HD-DVD player, that included an HDMI cable. As I waited for the employee to come from the back with the box, I spotted a manager telling the employee to make sure this customer doesn't leave without the most expensive HDMI cable they have. The freaking thing already comes with one, and they were going to try and scam me into paying $100+ for a monster cable that would not improve the picture, but they would tell me it does. Imagine all the suckers they get for people to pay $100 for HDMI or upscaling dvd players, or when buying PS3s.

Ever see those commercials for Video Professor to teach idiots how to use ebay or anything computer related. He says in his commercial he'll send you any of the following lessons for free. Keeps using the word free to learn something at no cost. But anyone that bites will learn that after they send the cd to you, they have to have it back with them in 10 days or pay $90. And often there's not instructions and trying to call for a return is impossible, you get no answer.

A lot of commercials are like that, start with a low price, guarantee refund, but some how the $8 shipping turns up as $50 extra because they charge for each extra item they included as a bonus if you call now, sometimes not all included. Items don't work as advertised. And if you do return it, which often no one picks up, you are returning it for only the cheap item price, but you lose on that crazy shipping.

Those are just a few examples, there's plenty of real scamming going on, much more malicious than this ebay thing that bidders can completely prevent if they did what they are suppose to do. Sure, it's bad if the sellers intent is to gain from stupid people that don't read descriptions, but then again, I feel it's the buyers fault. You shouldn't bid one something without reading the description, right there you are at fault if the item does not meet your expectations. Even on legit auctions there may be some requirements, like no zero feedback bidders, as is, extra sales tax, auction premium, needs repair, etc. At least from all this the bidders will learn a valuable lesson.

While I hate real scamming, I also don't feel the need to protect people from doing stupid things that's their own fault.

[mwchris]

And let me tell you, this is my opinion. If you've read my last post, I never intended to actually accept the payment from the winning bidder. I've sent them messages telling them they don't have to pay anything.

I'm a crook? Do you know me? Have I stolen something from your house sometime or another?

No, I do not know you, and I understand that you created the auction to see what would happen. You are the one who ignored my initial post that clearly stated this was not addressed at you personally. So, unless you have a guilty concious you should not be upset. In most cases I made an effort to say "sellers", however, if I made an error, read the word "you" as "sellers."

You, Alex, clearly stated in your previous post that you were defending the other sellers. In MY OPINION that puts you in the same group. Whether you intended to go through with the auction or not. Your intent was to see if people would run up the bidding because the believed there was an iphone listed in the auction. Which, as you have acknowledge to us, but not on ebay, that there is NO iphone included. Alex, what would you tell the police if you got caught stealing from a store . . .You just wanted to see what would happen??? There is no honor among thieves.

It seems like mwchris was burned by a bad ebay auction before. Or he's been scammed somehow before.

No, I have not been scammed or burned on ebay.


The point I am trying to make here is for educational purposes. The fundamental understanding/reasoning is the problem; the fact that some people think it is OK to take advantage of someone because they do not understand something which has not been clearly explained or presented to them in a clear way.

I am not saying that it doesn't happen, by why contribute to the problem?

Clearly some people have not only the time, but money to make an auction just to see what would happen. To see how easily it would be to scam people. Why would you try that? Again I say, You wouldn't try to steal from a store just to see what would happen?

[platbr]

Oh please, Internet fraud? Criminal? Go have a word with OJ. Do something that's actually important.

I'm 100% sure this wouldn't stand a chance in court.

Well, you can be "100% sure" of whatever you like. The $650 price might be too low to make it a felony, but it's a misdemeanor at least. Plus, it's a federal crime at any size, because it's in interstate commerce. Blow your "100% sure" smoke all you want, but you'll likely get nailed. Here's an example with similar facts.

The FBI does investigate these complaints: http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx

Honestly, if you take some poor sucker's money for your "box" advertisement, this could be you. You can explain the nuance of the presence or absence of the word "box" to the Judge.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/213739_scam26.html

Man gets 30 days in jail for running eBay scam

SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER STAFF AND NEWS SERVICES

U.S. District Judge Thomas Zilly sentenced a 25-year-old Bellingham man to 30 days behind bars yesterday after he admitted advertising high-quality car and truck engines for sale on eBay but delivering engines that were worthless junk.

Brett Young was also ordered to pay $27,775 in restitution to his victims.

From March 2003 to April 2004, Young advertised on the online auction site engines such as a 1968 Corvette 427 "best of everything" engine, but delivered greasy old hulks with cracked blocks or broken rods.

Complaints to the FBI's Internet Fraud Complaint Center prompted the investigation.

[bc008]

LOLOL

i wonder if he paid?

[platbr]

LOLOL

i wonder if he paid?

I heard he's selling iphone boxes for $650 to pay his restitution. :)

[gcmexico]

u have to be kidding me...it's clearly just the box!! LOL

[alexmarchuk]

mwchris;

You were referring to me, because what I did, is exactly what they did.
I listed in my auction that they were bidding on a box, I've written quite a lot for just a box, that's not against any rules though.

Stealing from a store is theft, I decided to go through with it and know it's illegal, what was done with these auctions may be "misleading" but in no way illegal.

I payed to see what would happen because I can, it's my money you can't tell me what do you with it. I'll do whatever I want with it.

platbr;

I'm not advertising high quality boxes and delivering torn up boxes, am I?
I never took any money from anyone, even if someone in my position were to accept the payment, it's their money after the auction.

[platbr]

u have to be kidding me...it's clearly just the box!! LOL

Even lawyers do this: use the word clear or clearly to bolster a weak argument. I've looked at a couple of these box ads, and I don't think it's "clear." If somebody is paying hundreds of dollars for this, a reasonable judge or juror might not think it so "clear," either.

I think these sellers are on thin ice from a fraud perspective. If I was the U.S. Attorney (or perhaps just the police officer) investigating one of these crimes, it doesn't seem like it would be so clear to me, either, that it was just the box.

Bottom line, if you take $550 for a box when you know the other person thinks they are getting an iPhone, that's fraud. If somebody here actually gets scammed on one of these, please PM me and I'll help you get it touch with the right people to make it right. "Clear" though it may seem when you're "in the know," your average person (or 1 in a 100) is going to be misled.

[TimothyB]

If you advertise an empty box, show pictures of an empty box, sell an empty box, ship the empty box, and the item meets the description, how is that fraud? It's a bit different that advertise parts as high quality and shipping something that doesn't meet expectations of the seller's own description.

I hate the idea of turning sellers who followed the book into criminals just because of the stupidity of others.

When are people ever responsible for their own actions these days?

I just call these auctions one big misunderstanding. I never expect them to hold up, or can't imagine the person it takes to refuse a refund after the buyer sees what comes in the mail, if it even got that far. I'd never do it because my conscious would kill me when it's clear if someone paid $650 for a box that they think they are getting a real phone. And if you were legitimately trying to sell something (a lot more crazy stuff on ebay, like people's souls), that bidder should at least pay for wasting your time and auction fees for not reading your description.

The only time I'd consider it a real scam is if the empty box had a buy it now price for the cost of a real phone, which would intentionally mislead buyers to think it included the phone.

[alexmarchuk]

Even lawyers do this: use the word clear or clearly to bolster a weak argument. I've looked at a couple of these box ads, and I don't think it's "clear." If somebody is paying hundreds of dollars for this, a reasonable judge or juror might not think it so "clear," either.

I think these sellers are on thin ice from a fraud perspective. If I was the U.S. Attorney (or perhaps just the police officer) investigating one of these crimes, it doesn't seem like it would be so clear to me, either, that it was just the box.

Bottom line, if you take $550 for a box when you know the other person thinks they are getting an iPhone, that's fraud. If somebody here actually gets scammed on one of these, please PM me and I'll help you get it touch with the right people to make it right. "Clear" though it may seem when you're "in the know," your average person (or 1 in a 100) is going to be misled.

I don't know how this isn't clear for you.
http://cgi.ebay.com/iPhone-3G-Black-16-GB-Box-and-Instructions_W0QQitemZ170239921195QQihZ007QQcategoryZ3312QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

"This is a BOX and set if INSTRUCTIONS for an iPhone 3G Black 16GB phone."

Now compare that to: http://cgi.ebay.com/Brand-New-3G-16GB-Apple-Iphone-Black-AT-T-Free-Ship_W0QQitemZ290246761388QQihZ019QQcategoryZ3312QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

An auction for an iPhone. If you can't tell the difference, god help you.

[ImNoSuperMan]

It wouldnt be worth selling the box for just a little amount because if you have all the boxes and accessories then the resale value goes up. Its your choice. I am keeping all my stuff in a drawer for when i want to sell it

I m sure your iPhone box wont increase the iPhones value by $550 when you sell the iPhone after a few months.


My last auction fell through, though, ebay sent me an email stating:

"We're pleased to have you as part of the eBay Community. However, the following

listing(s) were removed and all fees have been credited to your account:


iPhone 3G White 16GB Box w/ charger-headphones-manuals!


Because the iPhone is in such high demand, requirements have been put in place for

iPhone sales. These requirements are for the protection of our Community:

- The listing needs to include a unique photo of the item or items, and your User

ID needs to be clearly shown in the picture (watermarks will not be accepted)."



You see. Even eBay staff mistook it for a real iPhone. There might not be anything legally wrong in what these sellers are doing but profiting out of sombody else`s foolishness is not really a great way to earn money. Just coz the buyer didnt act smartly, it doesnt give the seller the right to scam him.

[mwchris]

mwchris;

You were referring to me, because what I did, is exactly what they did.
I listed in my auction that they were bidding on a box, I've written quite a lot for just a box, that's not against any rules though.

Stealing from a store is theft, I decided to go through with it and know it's illegal, what was done with these auctions may be "misleading" but in no way illegal.

I payed to see what would happen because I can, it's my money you can't tell me what do you with it. I'll do whatever I want with it.



platbr;

I'm not advertising high quality boxes and delivering torn up boxes, am I?
I never took any money from anyone, even if someone in my position were to accept the payment, it's their money after the auction.

Alex, I never once refered to you. The fact that you are doing what the other sellers did, as you just stated, does put you in the category. I did not put you in the category.

You may have written "quite a lot for just a box," but what you did not do is CLEARLY state that is was just a box AND that there was no iphone. That is what is misleading. No matter how clear it is to you, the author.

Even lawyers do this: use the word clear or clearly to bolster a weak argument. I've looked at a couple of these box ads, and I don't think it's "clear." If somebody is paying hundreds of dollars for this, a reasonable judge or juror might not think it so "clear," either.

I think these sellers are on thin ice from a fraud perspective. If I was the U.S. Attorney (or perhaps just the police officer) investigating one of these crimes, it doesn't seem like it would be so clear to me, either, that it was just the box.

Bottom line, if you take $550 for a box when you know the other person thinks they are getting an iPhone, that's fraud. If somebody here actually gets scammed on one of these, please PM me and I'll help you get it touch with the right people to make it right. "Clear" though it may seem when you're "in the know," your average person (or 1 in a 100) is going to be misled.

Platbr, thank you for trying to explain this to him. I am glad at least one other person reading this understand that it is number 1) the intent of the seller, and 2) the fact that the description is not clearly written.


What is clear is that sellers (not naming you Alex) that make these sort of auctions are acting with the intent to profit by not being completely clear about what is being sold. Further, these types of sellers (not naming you Alex) have very loose moral and ethical standards, and are what many would call criminals.

Now, Alex, if you happen to fall into the category of these sellers, that is just some coincidence.

Alex, I am just curious, but your profile states you are a "student", exactly where are you a student (college, university, elementary, middle, high school)?

[thor79]

I don't know how this isn't clear for you.
http://cgi.ebay.com/iPhone-3G-Black-16-GB-Box-and-Instructions_W0QQitemZ170239921195QQihZ007QQcategoryZ3312QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

"This is a BOX and set if INSTRUCTIONS for an iPhone 3G Black 16GB phone."

Now compare that to: http://cgi.ebay.com/Brand-New-3G-16GB-Apple-Iphone-Black-AT-T-Free-Ship_W0QQitemZ290246761388QQihZ019QQcategoryZ3312QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

An auction for an iPhone. If you can't tell the difference, god help you.

Just because people are stupid and can't tell the difference...does not provide justification for you and those like you for running the auctions. Just because there is an opportunity to take advantage of people does not mean you should take advantage of them. You are scum for doing that.

Here's hoping karma bites you on your ass and makes you drop your iPhone and shatter its screen.

[mwchris]

If you advertise an empty box, show pictures of an empty box, sell an empty box, ship the empty box, and the item meets the description, how is that fraud? It's a bit different that advertise parts as high quality and shipping something that doesn't meet expectations of the seller's own description.

I hate the idea of turning sellers who followed the book into criminals just because of the stupidity of others.

When are people ever responsible for their own actions these days?

I just call these auctions one big misunderstanding. I never expect them to hold up, or can't imagine the person it takes to refuse a refund after the buyer sees what comes in the mail, if it even got that far. I'd never do it because my conscious would kill me when it's clear if someone paid $650 for a box that they think they are getting a real phone. And if you were legitimately trying to sell something (a lot more crazy stuff on ebay, like people's souls), that bidder should at least pay for wasting your time and auction fees for not reading your description.

The only time I'd consider it a real scam is if the empty box had a buy it now price for the cost of a real phone, which would intentionally mislead buyers to think it included the phone.

Good points about the photo, which many of these types of auctions do not include.

I also agree that people should take responsiability for their actions, however, it is the responsiability of the seller to make a good faith effort in providing an easily understood description that is clear as to what the winner will be receiving.

And, I also think one of the auctions listed, whether by Alex or not, did have a $300 buy it now price or somewhere around there for a BOX.

I don't know how this isn't clear for you.
http://cgi.ebay.com/iPhone-3G-Black-16-GB-Box-and-Instructions_W0QQitemZ170239921195QQihZ007QQcategoryZ3312QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

"This is a BOX and set if INSTRUCTIONS for an iPhone 3G Black 16GB phone."

Now compare that to: http://cgi.ebay.com/Brand-New-3G-16GB-Apple-Iphone-Black-AT-T-Free-Ship_W0QQitemZ290246761388QQihZ019QQcategoryZ3312QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

An auction for an iPhone. If you can't tell the difference, god help you.

No, GOD HELP YOU, when you are in jail for INTENTIONALLY attempting to deceive someone into purchasing a box instead of the actual iphone.

You are using the hype of the iphone to make absorbent profits from an item that MOST individuals would interpret as including the iphone in the auction.

Only crooks prey on innocent people.

I m sure your iPhone box wont increase the iPhones value by $550 when you sell the iPhone after a few months.




You see. Even eBay staff mistook it for a real iPhone. There might not be anything legally wrong in what these sellers are doing but making profiting out of sombody else`s foolishness is not really a great way to earn money. Just coz the buyer didnt act smartly, it doesnt give the seller the right to scam him.

Great point!

Just because people are stupid and can't tell the difference...does not provide justification for you and those like you for running the auctions. Just because there is an opportunity to take advantage of people does not mean you should take advantage of them. You are scum for doing that.

Here's hoping karma bites you on your ass and makes you drop your iPhone and shatter its screen.

THANK YOU! Glad someone else understands!

Just because you can easily scam someone doesn't mean it is right, which some people clearly believe it is ok.

[platbr]

I don't know how this isn't clear for you.
http://cgi.ebay.com/iPhone-3G-Black-16-GB-Box-and-Instructions_W0QQitemZ170239921195QQihZ007QQcategoryZ3312QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

"This is a BOX and set if INSTRUCTIONS for an iPhone 3G Black 16GB phone."

It's not clear for at least the reason that you listed it in the "Cell Phones & Smartphones" category. Answer me this without equivocating: is it a "Cell Phone"? Is it a "Smartphone"?

Listed in category: Cell Phones & PDAs > Cell Phones & Smartphones

So you listed a cardboard box in the "Cell Phones & Smartphones" category, right alongside other "Cell Phones & Smartphones," and you didn't intend to defraud people, Mr. Marchuck? You were going to accept $650 from buyer jonrosa, and you didn't once think he might be making a mistake? And you listed your item with the first words "iPhone 3G Black 16 GB ***Box and Instructions***." Isn't it reasonable to assume that a buyer might be mistaken as to whether they were buying an iPhone with a Box and Instructions, rather than a box for an iPhone?

You'd go down for fraud in a heartbeat if you took somebody's money.

If you advertise an empty box, show pictures of an empty box, sell an empty box, ship the empty box, and the item meets the description, how is that fraud? It's a bit different that advertise parts as high quality and shipping something that doesn't meet expectations of the seller's own description.

I hate the idea of turning sellers who followed the book into criminals just because of the stupidity of others.

We--society as a whole--turn sellers into criminals when the take advantage of the stupidity of others through misleading means. There's a sucker born every minute, but that doesn't mean you can steal the sucker's lunch money. There might be some debate if these *boxes* were listed in the "recyclable paper products" category, rather than the "Cell Phones & PDAs > Cell Phones & Smartphones" category. But that's just fraud. Any one of us could win this case before a jury.

I sincerely hope that Alex was just a kid messing around. If he's 14, I could excuse it. If he's older, then I believe the facts show a couple steps toward the commission of a crime. Not good.

[alexmarchuk]

Alright. Let's see.

If a corporation DEPENDS on stupid people (re: credit card companies, advertisements, cell phone companies, etc) to make a profit, they're not doing it illegally, it's all there in print.

So should these companies have to resort to not charging extra fees, because people didn't understand what they're getting themselves into? You're got to be kidding me.

(Yes, my mistake for originally placing a buy it now of $299.99 on my first auction, though nothing with my last auction was wrong except a letter from eBay about having my name printed with the photos, and I did take the photos. I also did not place a buy it now, and started bidding at $0.99)

mwchris: I'm currently attending my local elementary school, thanks for asking!

It's not clear for at least the reason that you listed it in the "Cell Phones & Smartphones" category. Answer me this without equivocating: is it a "Cell Phone"? Is it a "Smartphone"?

Listed in category: Cell Phones & PDAs > Cell Phones & Smartphones

So you listed a cardboard box in the "Cell Phones & Smartphones" category, right alongside other "Cell Phones & Smartphones," and you didn't intend to defraud people, Mr. Marchuck? You were going to accept $650 from buyer jonrosa, and you didn't once think he might be making a mistake? And you listed your item with the first words "iPhone 3G Black 16 GB ***Box and Instructions***." Isn't it reasonable to assume that a buyer might be mistaken as to whether they were buying an iPhone with a Box and Instructions, rather than a box for an iPhone?

You'd go down for fraud in a heartbeat if you took somebody's money.

You'd go down for stupidity. First of all, it's Mr. Marchuk, Thank you.
Second, please examine your facts, that is not my auction is any way, shape or form. jonrosa was the seller, unless they won their own auction.

[thor79]

It's not clear for at least the reason that you listed it in the "Cell Phones & Smartphones" category. Answer me this without equivocating: is it a "Cell Phone"? Is it a "Smartphone"?

Listed in category: Cell Phones & PDAs > Cell Phones & Smartphones

So you listed a cardboard box in the "Cell Phones & Smartphones" category, right alongside other "Cell Phones & Smartphones," and you didn't intend to defraud people, Mr. Marchuck? You were going to accept $650 from buyer jonrosa, and you didn't once think he might be making a mistake? And you listed your item with the first words "iPhone 3G Black 16 GB ***Box and Instructions***." Isn't it reasonable to assume that a buyer might be mistaken as to whether they were buying an iPhone with a Box and Instructions, rather than a box for an iPhone?

You'd go down for fraud in a heartbeat if you took somebody's money.

Good point...by listing it in a category it clearly does not belong in you are clearly advertising it as said product...in this case a cell phone or smartphone. If that were the only category available for that kind of stuff you might get away with it not being considered fraud....but since there are other categories that are specifically for accessories...it is clear there is an intent to defraud the buyer. Should be an easy case of fraud in any court.

[platbr]

You'd go down for stupidity. First of all, it's Mr. Marchuk, Thank you.

Ad hominem. It makes the argument stronger, you know. Spelling, too!

Second, please examine your facts, that is not my auction is any way, shape or form. jonrosa was the seller, unless they won their own auction.

Fair enough. If that wasn't your auction you have nothing to worry about. But following your hypothetical--in which you defended that auction as valid and not misleading (it was your link, after all)--the point is still valid. That auction is fraudulent and misleading, for at least the reasons cited above.

And I still say you'd go down for fraud if you take somebody's money.

[TimothyB]

I m sure your iPhone box wont increase the iPhones value by $550 when you sell the iPhone after a few months.




You see. Even eBay staff mistook it for a real iPhone. There might not be anything legally wrong in what these sellers are doing but profiting out of sombody else`s foolishness is not really a great way to earn money. Just coz the buyer didnt act smartly, it doesnt give the seller the right to scam him.

People are scammed every day in local stores like Best Buy. Also, ever see late night tv commericals

[platbr]

People are scammed every day in local stores like Best Buy. Also, ever see late night tv commericals

And people get murdered every day, which doesn't give you permission to commit the same crime. The "he did it too" excuse stops working in about 1st grade.

[zync]

The title is a little misleading. It says plainly a 16 gig iPhone, and the part of the box and manual is too far separated by the *** quoting that. So at first glance, to some it could be misconstrued as an iPhone with the box and manual included.

Though, obviously anyone bidding $650 should take a few seconds to read the description, if they don't, they deserve to get scammed.

Reminds me how a teacher in Elementary school taught us a lesson about reading instructions. She gave us a test, simple enough to start and finish without reading anything. Practically only one student read the instruction paragraph, which the last line said to ignore everything before, put your pencil down, and do not do the test. The rest of us were suckers.

I think you were in my class. :) I was the one guy in my class that didn't waste my time. Actually, I think there was one or two other people. We looked at each other with big smiles and tried our best not to laugh.

[mwchris]

Alright. Let's see.

If a corporation DEPENDS on stupid people (re: credit card companies, advertisements, cell phone companies, etc) to make a profit, they're not doing it illegally, it's all there in print.

So should these companies have to resort to not charging extra fees, because people didn't understand what they're getting themselves into? You're got to be kidding me.

(Yes, my mistake for originally placing a buy it now of $299.99 on my first auction, though nothing with my last auction was wrong except a letter from eBay about having my name printed with the photos, and I did take the photos. I also did not place a buy it now, and started bidding at $0.99)

mwchris: I'm currently attending my local elementary school, thanks for asking!



Businesses do not depend on stupid people, that is an insane remark. Nor, does any company for that matter, most companies make far more money off of legitment buyers than those who fail to make a payment on their credit card, cell phone bill, etc. Credit card companies depend on people who do not make their payments. Just because someone can not make their payment does not mean they are unintelligent.

You can't even answer what school you attend? I am only curious as most of your remarks are on the level of a middle to high level student. Should I, or some of the other posters understand your educational level perhaps it would make it easier on explaining this to you in terms that you can understand.

But I digress, the point that many of us are trying to make is that your auctions and the others like it lack the detailed required to be considered "clearly described" in a way that the general public would understand. Therefore, but not making something easily understood you are attempting to deceive potiental buyers into thinking they are getting more than they actually are. Again, I say, if your intent is not to deceive them, then WHY NOT simply state that the auction DOES NOT include the phone?

It is that simple, really.

People are scammed every day in local stores like Best Buy. Also, ever see late night tv commericals

Sounds like someone has been scammed before! :D


And people get murdered every day, which doesn't give you permission to commit the same crime. The "he did it too" excuse stops working in about 1st grade.

YES! +1

[Nicolecat]

I agree...it is misleading due to lack of information.

Sure the main point were in all caps & bold.
But no where in the description does it say, "This auction is strictly for an empty box with packaging material and instructions."

That simple statement would free the person that started the auction of any fraudulent behavior.

That is like selling someone a set of tires and listing them as "less than 50%"...the buyer receiving the tires only to find them bald.

Technically, the tires were less than 50%...but in no way are they legally safe to be driven on.

Hope the analogy makes sense.
:D

[dukebound85]

to be in the clear, list the box like this

1) box for iphone 3g 16gb only. no phone included

not

2) iphone 3g 16gb **box and instructions**

option 1 is VERY clear what you are selling. option 2 is misleading meaning you may think its clear but others dont

while i believe you can sell your box if you want to, make sure the discription is a clear as possible and NOTE that NO iphone is included at all

otherwise, you are just trying to trick people and you know it

[Nicolecat]

People may be scammed by large chain retailers...but all the necessary legal copy is always readily available, and very clear.
In those cases, it truly is due to lack of knowledge of what is being purchased...not lack of information offered up prior to purchase.

:rolleyes:

[FaustArp]

looks like the one going for 405 got taken off. it's not there anymore and it never ended

[Saladinos]

Can they though? I guess fine print is something different. But in the links above there is nothing hidden just stating the obvious, maybe not in a way that can be understood easily but they are telling the truth. Hey when i always buy something on ebay i always check the page sometimes even like 5 times to make sure im getting what I really want. Its not my problem some people don't have the time to realize what they are buying. Some people are impulse buyers on ebay they just go for things they think they know they are and just bid cause its cheap...

just my 2 cents

A lot of people tend to think the law relies on technicalities. So that if you actually said it was a picture, but hid it, you're in the clear, because technically you didn't omit any important information.

Those people are so far from the truth.

The actual written law means very little. What actually matters is the Judge. If the Judge decides that something is unfair (anything), they can overrule it. It's like those Pre-Nuptial agreements - they're not worth the paper they're printed on. A Judge can overrule anything they think is unfair. It's just like this - if the seller was obviously trying to mislead people, they'll be ruled against. Judges are people and take in to account what is fair, over what the law says should technically happen. The written law is a guideline, and the government regularly gives them guidelines on sentences (although it's non-binding. Judges rule what they think is fair for the crime.)

This guy is going to get sued. No question. And he'll lose that case. Unless it's filed in Texas.

[Nicolecat]

to be in the clear, list the box like this

1) box for iphone 3g 16gb only. no phone included

not

2) iphone 3g 16gb **box and instructions**

option 1 is VERY clear what you are selling. option 2 is misleading meaning you may think its clear but others dont

while i believe you can sell your box if you want to, make sure the discription is a clear as possible and NOTE that NO iphone is included at all

otherwise, you are just trying to trick people and you know it

Definitely...always be forthright with what is offered for sale. More information is always better than not enough. :D

[kinster]

This kind of thing has been done before with the XBox 360 'Box'. People bid high prices to get their own back so the seller will have to pay a high final fee.

[platbr]

A lot of people tend to think the law relies on technicalities. So that if you actually said it was a picture, but hid it, you're in the clear, because technically you didn't omit any important information.

Those people are so far from the truth.

The actual written law means very little. What actually matters is the Judge. If the Judge decides that something is unfair (anything), they can overrule it. It's like those Pre-Nuptial agreements - they're not worth the paper they're printed on. A Judge can overrule anything they think is unfair. It's just like this - if the seller was obviously trying to mislead people, they'll be ruled against. Judges are people and take in to account what is fair, over what the law says should technically happen. The written law is a guideline, and the government regularly gives them guidelines on sentences (although it's non-binding. Judges rule what they think is fair for the crime.)

This guy is going to get sued. No question. And he'll lose that case. Unless it's filed in Texas.

I agree 100% with what you're saying here. It's not about technicalities at all... And I think it's not so much that Judges "disregard" or "overrule" the law they're given, it's more because the law is fundamentally supposed to be "fair," and is based around mushy concepts like "intent," and "scienter," and all that stuff you forget you learned in law school. Whether somebody "intended" to defraud is a pretty nebulous concept, one that the Judge and Jury are going to have to look at in light of what's right. Listing your box for $299.99? You're cooked.

[zync]

If the sellers INTENT is NOT to mislead the buyer and profit an absorbent amount from the auction then WHY NOT plain as day state THERE IS NO PHONE INCLUDED?

I have sold many things on e-bay; one case in point was some Bose loud speakers. A person bid them up to an absorbent amount which they were truly not worth.

Take the elitist, I'm smarter than you, wordsmith, bull somewhere else. It is garbage like these auctions that have helped to ruin e-bay.

I'm not making fun of you by telling you this, but the word is not absorbent—which means that something is capable of absorbing/soaking up liquids—it's exorbitant—which means an unreasonably high charge.

I think that it is somewhat immoral, but according to eBay policy, you're supposed to read everything before you bid. These people aren't counting on people thinking it's an iPhone. They're counting on people not thinking or taking the time to read, which eBay clearly warns against. You shouldn't have to state that there is no iPhone just like you don't have to state with the purchase of a signed Derek Jeter baseball that there is no Derek Jeter included.

It has nothing to do with being smarter than someone else, it has to do with someone taking the time to actually learn about what they're buying. Plenty of people do this on other items. You always have to read the description and look at the photos. An iPhone wasn't even pictured. In fact, the plastic pieces that the iPhone lays on were shown and were empty. This isn't a case of someone preying on people that aren't smart enough to figure it out, it's a case of people too "stupid" to bother to read and save themselves from embarrassment.

[LanceRobbins24]

Here is one that is clearly marked......already up to just at $200. so sad....people just don't read very well I guess.

http://cgi.ebay.com/iPhone-3G-16-GB-Box-and-Instructions_W0QQitemZ270256948922QQihZ017QQcategoryZ3312QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[dukebound85]

Here is one that is clearly marked......already up to just at $200. so sad....people just don't read very well I guess.

http://cgi.ebay.com/iPhone-3G-16-GB-Box-and-Instructions_W0QQitemZ270256948922QQihZ017QQcategoryZ3312QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

the title is ambigous, description is not

plus all the bidders look like fakes to me

[flyinmac]

I don't see where a buyer would have any valid complaint.

There is no clear intent to defraud.

The auction clearly states what it is.

The starting price was 99 cents.

It is clear that it is what it was said to be. And, it's starting price reflects what it's actual value would have been.

People out there (yes they are nuts) will often purchase shipping / retail boxes for items to have as part of their collection. I used to deal in such stuff. I had vintage books, packaging, and whatever that people would seek to add to their collection to complete something they had as a full retail package (as in they had everything but the box and wanted the box to complete the item for it's maximum value).

But, in the Apple market, sometimes people are just nuts. They crave everything Apple. So, it's irrelevant that it's not vintage. It's still collectable.

I've seen many many offers to purchase various Apple retail boxes. Boxes for iPods, boxes for Mac Computers, boxes for everything.

So, while the price that this auction closed at is ridiculous. You cannot claim that the seller intended to defraud. He listed an item. He clearly said what it was. He showed pictures of it fully opened and displaying the included items, and priced it to start at only 99 cents (not even a dollar).

It was the bidders who drove the price up to the ridiculous level. The seller did not demand a high price.

And, he even offered a refund if returned within 7 days.

Just that the buyer would have to pay the shipping fees to return it. Obviously, if he were intending to take the money and run, he wouldn't offer a refund (I always refuse to refund on my auctions and clearly list that I won't). I describe what I have, am as honest as possible about it, and it's up to the buyer to decide if they want it. I am not interested in getting an item back that may not be in the condition I sold it. So, I don't offer refunds.

So, he described it accurately. Priced it accordingly. And, offered a refund which he would obviously not have expected to have to make for a item that would cost more to ship than it was expected it would sell for.

Not his fault that people bid it up to where it is. And, if taken to court, I would see the argument of it apparently have been in higher demand than he anticipated holding up.

That's the thing about auctions. You list the minimum you are willing to take (99 cents in this case). And, you see what happens. Only an absolute fool says that he's going to cancel a winning bid of hundreds of dollars because he would have been happy with less than a dollar.

If you list an item, and you hope that you might get $10, and someone takes it for $600 instead, tell me who here would decline to sell it?

No deception here. Just idiot buyers.

And, fortunately for the idiot buyers, he offers a refund option.

The one suspicious thing I do see, is the bidding history filled with names that appear to be possible fakes.

The winning bidder could simply be another scam account (though it does have some bid history and some positive and negative).

But, assuming that the winner is a legitimate person. The only way he could complain is if he was say the first bidder, and put in a maximum bid value of the $650. And walked away. Then, the seller used fake accounts to bid it up until he found the maximum purchase value entered by the bidder.

Either way though, the auction does clearly say what it is. Intent to defraud would have to be proven solely by proving that the seller was in control of the other bids.

[Nicolecat]

the title is ambigous, description is not

plus all the bidders look like fakes to me

I agree...
Whoever 6***m is ran the bid up on the other one too. :eek:

[dubstar]

what if you have a problem with your phone and need to return it? wouldnt you need to box?


oh yea..... you would have the cash to just replace it!!

[Nicolecat]

True.

But I think, the idea behind everyone's comments is whether or not the bidders know what they are truly getting.

Does someone want to ask one of the bidders?...what better way to find out. :p

Oh, wait...most of the bids are the person that started the auction running the price up.

So now the question becomes...eeny meenie, miney moe. (Which one will really know?)

[zync]

While I hate real scamming, I also don't feel the need to protect people from doing stupid things that's their own fault.

Well said. This is exactly where I'm coming from on this issue. Remember the old phrase: caveat emptor—let the buyer beware.

[mwchris]

I'm not making fun of you by telling you this, but the word is not absorbent—which means that something is capable of absorbing/soaking up liquids—it's exorbitant—which means an unreasonably high charge.

I think that it is somewhat immoral, but according to eBay policy, you're supposed to read everything before you bid. These people aren't counting on people thinking it's an iPhone. They're counting on people not thinking or taking the time to read, which eBay clearly warns against. You shouldn't have to state that there is no iPhone just like you don't have to state with the purchase of a signed Derek Jeter baseball that there is no Derek Jeter included.

It has nothing to do with being smarter than someone else, it has to do with someone taking the time to actually learn about what they're buying. Plenty of people do this on other items. You always have to read the description and look at the photos. An iPhone wasn't even pictured. In fact, the plastic pieces that the iPhone lays on were shown and were empty. This isn't a case of someone preying on people that aren't smart enough to figure it out, it's a case of people too "stupid" to bother to read and save themselves from embarrassment.


Thank you for correcting my wording. You knew what I was trying to say! :)

Ebay policy is not the issue, but rather the sellers intent to deceive the buyer through whatever means. Just because Ebay warns potential buyers to read all ads does not relieve the seller of any duty to provide a listing that is a good faith attempt in describing exactly what is up for auction in a CLEAR easy to understand manner.

You analogy with Derek Jeter is completely different. You said if someone says "Signed Derek Jeter baseball." Clearly the wording states "signed" just as you corrected my wording, the meaning of the word "Signed" is, from dictionary.com: "To affix one's signature to." "Signed" does not hold the same meaning as "Including Derek Jeter."

The individuals that are holding these auctions are releying on the hype surrounding the recent release of the iphone. The are using that hype, meaning many people activly seeking out the iphone on ebay, AND a misleading advertisement with the intent to deceive others into thinking they are getting a iphone. While the auction does not clearly state they are receiving an iphone, it also does not state otherwise.

Think about the warning labels you get with products:

Examples:
"Do not drive with sunshield in place." -- On a cardboard sunshield that keeps the sun off the dashboard."

""May irritate eyes." -- On a can of self-defense pepper spray."

""Please keep out of children." -- On a butcher knife."

Sure most people don't need to read that warning, as they know not to do that with the item, however, companies have to put these warnings in place in order to prevent legal action.

Example: The hot coffee incident at McDonald's. One would reasonably assume that coffee would be hot, however, because the cup did not CLEARLY warn the customer of the contents being hot, they sued and won a LARGE sum of money and caused this next warning:

""Caution: Hot beverages are hot!" -- On a coffee cup."


Regarding your last statement about no preying on stupid people, and that other people do this in their auctions all the time.

Just because someone else does it does not make it right. And, how are they not preying on people, intelligent or unintelligent? They are betting that someone will mistakenly read the auction as an auction for an iphone, which intern causes them to make a large profit off of a box. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the intelligence level of the other person. It is the sellers trying to deceive due to the ad being misleading and or unclear.

If the seller did not intend to mislead the buyer they would clearly state that the auction DOES NOT include the phone. Which the majority of these "box" auctions fail to state.

[Nicolecat]

Well said. This is exactly where I'm coming from on this issue. Remember the old phrase: caveat emptor—let the buyer beware.

I'm thinking more along the lines of the marketing phrase...

"There is no such thing as free lunch."

[ttech10]

Wow, 35 bids. You'd think more people would READ a page before they bid hundreds on dollars on something.

[Nicolecat]

My best guess is...
Someone sees the item, and infers that if it is worth the $200 to "such-n-such" than it is good enough for me...before reading the descrip.

Which is why...unfortunately...running the price up on purpose works. :(

[platbr]

I think that it is somewhat immoral, but according to eBay policy, you're supposed to read everything before you bid. These people aren't counting on people thinking it's an iPhone. They're counting on people not thinking or taking the time to read, which eBay clearly warns against.

And if they're counting on people being mistaken in what they're buying... that's fraud.

You shouldn't have to state that there is no iPhone just like you don't have to state with the purchase of a signed Derek Jeter baseball that there is no Derek Jeter included.

The Derek Jeter argument is a straw man--little substance and easy to knock down.

I don't see where a buyer would have any valid complaint.

There is no clear intent to defraud.

"Intent" is for the judge & jury. I'd disagree with you on this.

The auction clearly states what it is.

Not in the titles... "iPhone 3G 16 GB ****Box and Instructions****" looks very much to me like "iPhone 3G 16 GB w/ Box and Instructions."

The starting price was 99 cents.

Irrelevant. The price for many, many auctions is 99 cents. It's a lower listing fee, and people selling cars, boats, etc., list them for 99 cents. I've listed $300 Tivos starting at 99 cents.

It is clear that it is what it was said to be. And, it's starting price reflects what it's actual value would have been.

Saying something is "clear" doesn't make it so. What's "clear" to you is misleading to somebody else. What proves the point is that some person will pay $650 for a box. Can you honestly say that it is "clear" if somebody is paying $650 for a box, titled "iPhone 3G 16 GB ****Box and Instructions****" that is listed as a "Smartphone" in the "Smartphone" category?

People out there (yes they are nuts) will often purchase shipping / retail boxes for items to have as part of their collection. I used to deal in such stuff. I had vintage books, packaging, and whatever that people would seek to add to their collection to complete something they had as a full retail package (as in they had everything but the box and wanted the box to complete the item for it's maximum value).

But, in the Apple market, sometimes people are just nuts. They crave everything Apple. So, it's irrelevant that it's not vintage. It's still collectable.

I've seen many many offers to purchase various Apple retail boxes. Boxes for iPods, boxes for Mac Computers, boxes for everything.

For $650? For an iPhone box? There is another "legal test" you learn in law school. It's called the "laugh test." In other words, if an argument is so stupid that you can't keep from laughing when you make it... it's probably not your best argument. While an Apple II wooden box may be worth $650, arguing that leftover packaging is worth $650 doesn't pass the laugh test.

So, while the price that this auction closed at is ridiculous. You cannot claim that the seller intended to defraud. He listed an item. He clearly said what it was. He showed pictures of it fully opened and displaying the included items, and priced it to start at only 99 cents (not even a dollar).

It was the bidders who drove the price up to the ridiculous level. The seller did not demand a high price.

And, he even offered a refund if returned within 7 days.

Admittedly, if the seller did actually return the money, that might be a different story (not really... but maybe). However, if the seller intended to defraud, and consummated the transaction, the fraud is done. Returning the money doesn't make it legal (although it likely would keep the prosecutor from pressing charges).

As an aside, the Nigerian Prince who received my $10,000 donation to his $40,000,000,000 recovery fund said I could have a refund if I wasn't satisfied, too. I.e., good luck getting money back from somebody dishonest enough to post one of these fraudulent ads.

So, he described it accurately. Priced it accordingly. And, offered a refund which he would obviously not have expected to have to make for a item that would cost more to ship than it was expected it would sell for.

But each of these is false. Misleading description. Misleading category. Photos of the iPhone on the box. Irrelevant starting bid. Fraudulent (?) offer for a refund. None of this means anything, except the fraudulent nature of the offer.

Not his fault that people bid it up to where it is.

Yes. It is his fault. Misleading description. Misleading category. Photos of the iPhone on the box.

Not his fault that people bid it up to where it is.If you list an item, and you hope that you might get $10, and someone takes it for $600 instead, tell me who here would decline to sell it?

If they were mislead by my description, I can, and would, refund the money. In fact, I have done this where a buyer claimed he misunderstood the condition of a used bicycle frame I was selling. I sent him back his $150, and he returned the frame. The difference was, I didn't intend to mislead.

[zync]

You see. Even eBay staff mistook it for a real iPhone. There might not be anything legally wrong in what these sellers are doing but profiting out of sombody else`s foolishness is not really a great way to earn money. Just coz the buyer didnt act smartly, it doesnt give the seller the right to scam him.

Actually they just removed it because he was using someone else's picture. Which is said pretty much right after what you quoted.

I've been wondering since I started reading this thread: why is it that ignorance of a crime isn't an excuse, but ignorance of the product you knowingly bid on is? The first is a massive undertaking, there are billions of laws. The second requires a simple read and no additional research.

No, GOD HELP YOU, when you are in jail for INTENTIONALLY attempting to deceive someone into purchasing a box instead of the actual iphone.

This isn't fraud. Nothing mentions that the winner gets an iPhone. At most this is a civil case. Even if it were, no jury in the world would convict someone for that. It was clear and MOST people understand that. The people that don't are the people that chose to ignore what eBay tells buyers to do before bidding: read the auction. They also ask you if you're sure you want to bid. If you choose to blindly click through without paying attention or following directions, you get what you deserve.

And before it happens, I'm not currently doing this on eBay, nor would I ever do it—at least without mentioning that there is no iPhone included.

[Nicolecat]

I don't think it is ignorance of the commited crime...but ignorance of the law.

[platbr]

I've been wondering since I started reading this thread: why is it that ignorance of a crime isn't an excuse, but ignorance of the product you knowingly bid on is? The first is a massive undertaking, there are billions of laws. The second requires a simple read and no additional research.

I think it's "ignorance of the law is no excuse," and the reason is that the law does not want to reward willful ignorance. Otherwise, persons like these eBay sellers, or other crooks, would purposefully avoid learning the law so they could never be convicted of violating it.

On the other hand, your premise is simply wrong. It's not ignorance of the product you're buying that we're rewarding. It's defrauding the ignorant that we're punishing. See the difference? It's like when person A beats up the retarded kid at school. We punish person A because it was wrong of them to beat up on somebody less intelligent, less capable, etc.

As a society, we don't like it when people mislead others (whether it's Best Buy or Mr. Marchuk). So we punish that behavior with civil, or criminal, liability.

This isn't fraud. Nothing mentions that the winner gets an iPhone. At most this is a civil case.

I think you're wrong. And I may be wrong on this, but I'll hazard a guess that I've seen a whole lot more federal criminal trials, arraignments, plea bargains, and sentencings.

[mwchris]

This isn't fraud. Nothing mentions that the winner gets an iPhone. At most this is a civil case. Even if it were, no jury in the world would convict someone for that. It was clear and MOST people understand that. The people that don't are the people that chose to ignore what eBay tells buyers to do before bidding: read the auction. They also ask you if you're sure you want to bid. If you choose to blindly click through without paying attention or following directions, you get what you deserve.

And before it happens, I'm not currently doing this on eBay, nor would I ever do it—at least without mentioning that there is no iPhone included.

As I have stated in many many many of my posts. Although the auction does not state that the winner is receiving an iphone it also DOES NOT state that the winner is NOT receiving an iphone. The seller has intentionally left this pertinent information off of the ad. Therefore, s/he is INTENDING to defraud any potential buyer by not making the ad clear.

There are many others following this thread that have explained this more clearly than I. And, while something like this would most likely not go to trail, it is the principal of the matter that some people believe they can be INTENTIONALLY vague in an attempt to defraud a potential buyer.

If their INTENT is NOT to defraud potential buyers, why not just put: AUCTION DOES NOT INCLUDE PHONE???

[flyinmac]

As I have stated in many many many of my posts. Although the auction does not state that the winner is receiving an iphone it also DOES NOT state that the winner is NOT receiving an iphone. The seller has intentionally left this pertinent information off of the ad. Therefore, s/he is INTENDING to defraud any potential buyer by not making the ad clear.

There are many others following this thread that have explained this more clearly than I. And, while something like this would most likely not go to trail, it is the principal of the matter that some people believe they can be INTENTIONALLY vague in an attempt to defraud a potential buyer.

If there INTENT is NOT to defraud potential buyers, why not just put: AUCTION DOES NOT INCLUDE PHONE???

One could argue that he said it was a box and instructions and that it simply did not occur to him to make the redundant statement that there was no phone.

[mwchris]

One could argue that he said it was a box and instructions and that it simply did not occur to him to make the redundant statement that there was no phone.

But, "Box and instructions" does not state that there is a phone OR that there is NOT.

That is the point.

[platbr]

One could argue that he said it was a box and instructions and that it simply did not occur to him to make the redundant statement that there was no phone.

You are exactly right. And this is not a terrible argument. However, it's an argument he'd be making to the jury in a criminal trial. The truth of it -- and what the jury would figure out in about 3 seconds -- is that the argument is a lie. And he'd be found guilty. It's just fraud by "deception or trick."

[Nicolecat]

So, I guess to make the point more pertinent.

What would someone be looking at faced with these charges?...
Compensation of monetary loss...

Depending on the judge, would there be jail time...or just trash pick-up duty?

I don't think people are getting the point on just how serious this is.

Edit: or if it is that serious...according to contract law?

[flyinmac]

But, "Box and instructions" does not state that there is a phone OR that there is NOT.

That is the point.

It does if your not an idiot that can't read.

He said "This is a BOX and set if INSTRUCTIONS for an iPhone 3G Black 16GB phone."


That means, it is a BOX and Instructions that are for an iPhone 3G. It does not say it is a Box and instructions with an iPhone. It says for, and that is clear.

Now, if someone did not make it past elementary school, and cannot properly interpret the english language, than perhaps they should not be making purchases. Quite possible that they cannot understand the difference between an actual $10 bill and the envelope that the bank uses to give you the $10 bill.

Honestly, why should we defend idiots who fail to learn the language of our country? Who fail to understand plain english. And, who don't take the time to think?

I'm tired of the excuses made on behalf of those who choose not to educate themselves.

I'm tired of people who choose not to learn english, but then cry that no one is there to read everything for them and explain it to them. Who demand to be part of our elections, but choose not to be able to read the ballot. And, I'm tired of our country feeling sorry for these lazy people and dropping everything to help them get a free ride.

If you want to live here, if you want to do business here, then learn the language. If you have always lived here, then it is absolutely laziness that has prevented you from doing so.

Even my 4 year old could distinguish what was for sale on that auction listing. She would clearly understand it was a box and instructions for a phone and not an actual phone.

Perhaps my 4 year old is just smart. But, if she's got a better comprehension of the english language than an adult with a credit card, then there is a serious problem with our adult citizens.

Just because you choose not to learn, doesn't mean you have a right to complain because you didn't understand.

[zync]

Here is one that is clearly marked......already up to just at $200. so sad....people just don't read very well I guess.

http://cgi.ebay.com/iPhone-3G-16-GB-Box-and-Instructions_W0QQitemZ270256948922QQihZ017QQcategoryZ3312QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I was going to ask if someone would be willing to put up an auction that clearly states that there is no iPhone in it. I'm sure it would probably sell just as high. All it needs is one person to bid it high enough and people stop reading. I do it sometimes when looking (but never when bidding).

[FaustArp]

Already ahead of you. Decided that if we were going to stop this rediculous thread someone would have to test and see what happens. Mine clearly states iphone is not included. Anyone wanna argue with that?

[flyinmac]

Already ahead of you. Decided that if we were going to stop this rediculous thread someone would have to test and see what happens. Mine clearly states iphone is not included. Anyone wanna argue with that?


Just the illiterate who feel that their inability to understand english entitles them to legal protection from living with the consequences of making poor choices.

Oh, wait... I'm sorry... I just realized that I didn't dumb that down enough for the illiterate to understand.

I don't know how to make it clear enough for you to understand.... But, you are lazy. You've chosen not to learn to read. You've chosen not to educate yourself. And, you've chosen to make a purchase without the benefit of reading what it is you are buying.

Oh, and just for clarification, the fact that there is an e-bay logo at the top of the screen does not mean that you will also gain ownership of e-bay when you have won my auction for a pencil protector.

Oh, and just for clarification, there is no pencil in the pencil protector. For legal purposes, I must disclose that said pencil was stolen by a jock... So, perhaps the pencil protector is not in full working order....

Price drop, pencil protector.... price now one half a pencil (I can't do my homework without a pencil).

[zync]

You analogy with Derek Jeter is completely different. You said if someone says "Signed Derek Jeter baseball." Clearly the wording states "signed" just as you corrected my wording, the meaning of the word "Signed" is, from dictionary.com: "To affix one's signature to." "Signed" does not hold the same meaning as "Including Derek Jeter."

What if it was just "Derek Jeter baseball?" My point is that saying iPhone 3G box isn't the same as saying iPhone 3G.

""Please keep out of children." -- On a butcher knife."

That one is certainly obvious :p

Sure most people don't need to read that warning, as they know not to do that with the item, however, companies have to put these warnings in place in order to prevent legal action.

Example: The hot coffee incident at McDonald's. One would reasonably assume that coffee would be hot, however, because the cup did not CLEARLY warn the customer of the contents being hot, they sued and won a LARGE sum of money and caused this next warning:

""Caution: Hot beverages are hot!" -- On a coffee cup."

This I understand, yet I also dislike. The age of babying people in this country has become ridiculous. I once heard—whether it's true or not I am unsure—that RV manuals have mention that cruise control does not allow te RV to drive on it's own akin to autopilot.

I can understand protecting the consumer with certain warning labels, like those explaining that certain parts can be dislodged and present a choking hazard to children, but to sell an adult coffee that is hot and pay them millions for finding testing the theory is retarded in my opinion.

Just because someone else does it does not make it right. And, how are they not preying on people, intelligent or unintelligent? They are betting that someone will mistakenly read the auction as an auction for an iphone, which intern causes them to make a large profit off of a box. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the intelligence level of the other person. It is the sellers trying to deceive due to the ad being misleading and or unclear.

If the seller did not intend to mislead the buyer they would clearly state that the auction DOES NOT include the phone. Which the majority of these "box" auctions fail to state.

True, I was merely stating it because there are far more dubious auctions out there than an auction for an iPhone box.

The Derek Jeter argument is a straw man--little substance and easy to knock down.

Agreed, it's supposed to be an absurd example. I couldn't think of something equating to this case that the time. So, try it this way. What if the auction simply said "iPhone 3G Box." Where is the fraud in that?

Not in the titles... "iPhone 3G 16 GB ****Box and Instructions****" looks very much to me like "iPhone 3G 16 GB w/ Box and Instructions."

I disagree, that's not how I read it. It's not as clear as you would like to believe. Also, the description's intent is to get you to look at the auction which is why you can't bid or "buy it now" before you get to the auction page.

Photos of the iPhone on the box.

This one fails the Derek Jeter rookie card test. :D

[dukebound85]

i personally feel this thread deserves to be closed:cool:

[Nicolecat]

Here is one that is clearly marked......already up to just at $200. so sad....people just don't read very well I guess.

http://cgi.ebay.com/iPhone-3G-16-GB-Box-and-Instructions_W0QQitemZ270256948922QQihZ017QQcategoryZ3312QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

True...but the very first bidder, put in $200. Is the same person that ran up the price of the other phone box. This same person is a very new account...with no history or feedback. :eek:

Sounds a bit shady if you ask me. :(

[flyinmac]

Of course, you do realize that the auction is probably being posted by someone either participating in or watching this discussion.

Sorry, I'm not going to break that down further so that it's easier for some of you to understand.

[zync]

I think it's "ignorance of the law is no excuse," and the reason is that the law does not want to reward willful ignorance. Otherwise, persons like these eBay sellers, or other crooks, would purposefully avoid learning the law so they could never be convicted of violating it.

On the other hand, your premise is simply wrong. It's not ignorance of the product you're buying that we're rewarding. It's defrauding the ignorant that we're punishing. See the difference? It's like when person A beats up the retarded kid at school. We punish person A because it was wrong of them to beat up on somebody less intelligent, less capable, etc.

As a society, we don't like it when people mislead others (whether it's Best Buy or Mr. Marchuk). So we punish that behavior with civil, or criminal, liability.

OK, people lay off it. I mistyped, I meant ignorance of the law. I'm in a hurry here.


I think you're wrong. And I may be wrong on this, but I'll hazard a guess that I've seen a whole lot more federal criminal trials, arraignments, plea bargains, and sentencings.

You can think that, but nowhere on that ad does it say that the iPhone is included. Nowhere is an iPhone pictured, but a picture of a picture. If someone posted a print of Starry Night, and displayed the print and someone thought it was the actual painting and bid 2.5 million on it, they'd have no case. And the seller would not be in the wrong for not actually stating that it's a print and not a painting. Why? Because calling it is a print makes it not the painting ipso facto. I apologize if I use that incorrectly. 7 years of Latin and I've never been able to use that correctly in English.

But, "Box and instructions" does not state that there is a phone OR that there is NOT.

That is the point.

True, but that is only the title. You're inferring from the title that there's an iPhone included. The auction only states that: This is a BOX and set if INSTRUCTIONS for an iPhone 3G Black 16GB phone.

I agree that they're trying to mislead. I haven't argued against that, however in my opinion, and it's not a legal one, it's the buyer's fault for not reading the whole auction. If this happened in an auction house the buyer would be paying up—granted he would get a chance to look at it in person first, but you have the same option on eBay by reading the description. You can just as easily choose not to look at things at a real auction before you bid. Which is also stupid.

[flyinmac]

OK, people lay off it. I mistyped, I meant ignorance of the law. I'm in a hurry here.




You can think that, but nowhere on that ad does it say that the iPhone is included. Nowhere is an iPhone pictured, but a picture of a picture. If someone posted a print of Starry Night, and displayed the print and someone thought it was the actual painting and bid 2.5 million on it, they'd have no case. And the seller would not be in the wrong for not actually stating that it's a print and not a painting. Why? Because calling it is a print makes it not the painting ipso facto. I apologize if I use that incorrectly. 7 years of Latin and I've never been able to use that correctly in English.

Valid points... But, by the argument of some here, the buyer would have every right to believe you were actually selling him the actual stars in the sky (I'm sorry... The stars in space).

[zync]

Just the illiterate who feel that their inability to understand english entitles them to legal protection from living with the consequences of making poor choices.

Oh, wait... I'm sorry... I just realized that I didn't dumb that down enough for the illiterate to understand.

I don't know how to make it clear enough for you to understand.... But, you are lazy. You've chosen not to learn to read. You've chosen not to educate yourself. And, you've chosen to make a purchase without the benefit of reading what it is you are buying.

Oh, and just for clarification, the fact that there is an e-bay logo at the top of the screen does not mean that you will also gain ownership of e-bay when you have won my auction for a pencil protector.

Oh, and just for clarification, there is no pencil in the pencil protector. For legal purposes, I must disclose that said pencil was stolen by a jock... So, perhaps the pencil protector is not in full working order....

Price drop, pencil protector.... price now one half a pencil (I can't do my homework without a pencil).

Thank you, you are what's right with America. The laugh test is interesting too, you know. I laugh at people stupid enough to ignore a description and bid $650 for what is "clearly" a box and instructions.

Valid points... But, by the argument of some here, the buyer would have every right to believe you were actually selling him the actual stars in the sky (I'm sorry... The stars in space).

Haha! Nice! I thoroughly enjoyed your owning of eBay by virtue of the logo being on the page! That was classic.

[bsolomonny]

haha.... people are silly.

[lilnyc]

Do people know what they're bidding for? The seller is upfront, pics and everything, so the winner should pay up.

[dukebound85]

haha.... people are silly.

true and people can never win arguing on the internet

[alexmarchuk]

Let's see what you say about this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330254172963

My auction is very upfront and clear.

[flyinmac]

Thank you, you are what's right with America. The laugh test is interesting too, you know. I laugh at people stupid enough to ignore a description and bid $650 for what is "clearly" a box and instructions.

Yeah, I know I'm in the minority. I guess I expect too much of people. I expect them to demonstrate the intelligence and a thought process that at least rivals my dog.

I'll be generous and draw the limit at the cat... I don't think there are many who could out smart him. He's quite conniving.

Seriously, why do we tolerate such laziness in our country. Has anyone watched that movie Idiocracy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy

Sadly, it's not that far off. Essentially, two average individuals turn out to be the geniuses that everyone in the future society bows down to.

Incapable of completing a thought of their own, every simple idea from these average individuals is received with amazement and immediate approval.

We really are heading there people. As long as we don't demand more of our society and it's people, we will get there.

Quit excusing laziness. Quit tolerating stupidity. Call them on it. Let them know that their idiots. Embarrass and shame them into making themselves better.

Or, just let us dwindle into being the least intelligent culture in the world. Unfortunately, I think we may already be there.



Haha! Nice! I thoroughly enjoyed your owning of eBay by virtue of the logo being on the page! That was classic.

Thank you :-)



Do people know what they're bidding for? The seller is upfront, pics and everything, so the winner should pay up.

Exactly.

[Sphere777]

Am I the only person who feels no empathy for people who are asinine enough to bid hundreds of dollars without reading first? I mean, seriously.

And to the people talking about fraud and court, get real. A decent lawyer costs upwards of $300 an hour. Discourse over the ethics of selling a box are fine, but some of these posts are utterly ridiculous. Nobody is going to court over a $650 box.

Let's see what you say about this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330254172963

My auction is very upfront and clear.

LOL the free shipping is a nice touch! ;)

[alexmarchuk]

LOL the free shipping is a nice touch! ;)

I thought so. ;p

[sr5878]

Alex, you know that for the $10 you'll get for that box, you'll lose like $50 when you try to sell your 3G when the iPhone _______ comes out right? ;)

Maybe I'll buy the box from you... "used 3g iphone - two boxes included!"

final selling price: $2000 ;)

[alexmarchuk]

Alex, you know that for the $10 you'll get for that box, you'll lose like $50 when you try to sell your 3G when the iPhone _______ comes out right? ;)

Maybe I'll buy the box from you... "used 3g iphone - two boxes included!"

final selling price: $2000 ;)

Thought I love my gadgets, especially the first iPhone. I tend to !@#$ them up before a new one comes out anyway. That was the case this time, it lasted me up to about June 9th and the bottom of the touchscreen didn't work.

I didn't even think about bringing it back, since it was literally dented and scratched to HELL. iPhone 3G was right around the corner, so I figured I'd just wait it out.

It'll probably be the same with the 3G, even though I keep it in pristine condition, that doesn't last for long.

[sr5878]

Honestly, you never know. I bought my sister an old used 4gb iPhone off of ebay for $200... arrived dented and scratched. After a few days the sleep/wake button stopped working so we brought it in to the Apple Store 2 hours ago. Genius said that the warranty was null because of the huge impact marks on the phone and that we would be SOL, but my sister mentioned she bought it from ebay and I guess the genius decided to neglect the big dent/scratch marks and give her a brand new 4gb iPhone.

[alexmarchuk]

Honestly, you never know. I bought my sister an old used 4gb iPhone off of ebay for $200... arrived dented and scratched. After a few days the sleep/wake button stopped working so we brought it in to the Apple Store 2 hours ago. Genius said that the warranty was null because of the huge impact marks on the phone and that we would be SOL, but my sister mentioned she bought it from ebay and I guess the genius decided to neglect the big dent/scratch marks and give her a brand new 4gb iPhone.
http://h4xr.org/r9sh

[sr5878]

oh...... nevermind.

[gdevitry]

Let's see what you say about this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330254172963

My auction is very upfront and clear.

Your title is not clear... I'd buy a charger & headphones for $.99 forget about the box.

[FaustArp]

alright.. maybe there is people out there willing to buy only a box..

http://cgi.ebay.com/A-WELL_W0QQitemZ220247679412

[zync]

Seriously, why do we tolerate such laziness in our country. Has anyone watched that movie Idiocracy?

Never got around to watching it, but I recall wanting to.

alright.. maybe there is people out there willing to buy only a box..

http://cgi.ebay.com/A-WELL_W0QQitemZ220247679412

A box and some undisclosed gift, which is against eBay's TOS I believe. There are plenty of legit box-buyers!

Am I the only person who feels no empathy for people who are asinine enough to bid hundreds of dollars without reading first? I mean, seriously.

And to the people talking about fraud and court, get real. A decent lawyer costs upwards of $300 an hour. Discourse over the ethics of selling a box are fine, but some of these posts are utterly ridiculous. Nobody is going to court over a $650 box.

Nope, you're not. And I agree, I don't think anyone would take someone to court over it if they're worried about cost, but if it's for the principle of the matter there would be someone out there. I'd probably sue (not that I'd be stupid enough to bid without reading the auction first) on principle. I'd rather pay a lawyer a fee than be scammed by a crook—a real crook, practicing real deception.

[coolant113]

stupid idiots:apple::apple:

[flyinmac]

Never got around to watching it, but I recall wanting to.

It's not the most impressive movie ever. Lightly entertaining (stumbled onto it one night when nothing else was on). But, it definitely illustrates the point.

[mwchris]

It does if your not an idiot that can't read.

He said "This is a BOX and set if INSTRUCTIONS for an iPhone 3G Black 16GB phone."


That means, it is a BOX and Instructions that are for an iPhone 3G. It does not say it is a Box and instructions with an iPhone. It says for, and that is clear.

Now, if someone did not make it past elementary school, and cannot properly interpret the english language, than perhaps they should not be making purchases. Quite possible that they cannot understand the difference between an actual $10 bill and the envelope that the bank uses to give you the $10 bill.

Honestly, why should we defend idiots who fail to learn the language of our country? Who fail to understand plain english. And, who don't take the time to think?

I'm tired of the excuses made on behalf of those who choose not to educate themselves.

I'm tired of people who choose not to learn english, but then cry that no one is there to read everything for them and explain it to them. Who demand to be part of our elections, but choose not to be able to read the ballot. And, I'm tired of our country feeling sorry for these lazy people and dropping everything to help them get a free ride.

If you want to live here, if you want to do business here, then learn the language. If you have always lived here, then it is absolutely laziness that has prevented you from doing so.

Even my 4 year old could distinguish what was for sale on that auction listing. She would clearly understand it was a box and instructions for a phone and not an actual phone.

Perhaps my 4 year old is just smart. But, if she's got a better comprehension of the english language than an adult with a credit card, then there is a serious problem with our adult citizens.

Just because you choose not to learn, doesn't mean you have a right to complain because you didn't understand.

Gee, calm down. Last I checked this is America, and we can all say as we like, and speak which ever language we choose.(Being that America has NO official language.) Perhaps the fact that we do have such a large amount of freedom and such a diverse population is one of the reasons/causes for such miscommunication. However, this thread is not about the demise of the American culture, but rather whether or not the auction was listed with the intent to deceive or not.

Now, I agree that it would be silly for someone to go court for this issue, however, as a previous poster mentioned, if for the principal I could completely understand that.

Secondly, I understand that most of us here are not legal professionals, but are merely stating our opinion, so no need to get so worked up.

Third, clearly most if not everyone who has posted in this thread can read, at least above the elementary school level. And, there is no need to attack anyone's personal ability to read or understand something otherwise.

Fourth, I also understand that people should be held accountable for their actions, and be responsible in the decisions they make, however;

If you in good faith list an auction being as clear as possible stating specifically what the winner will receive, and the buyer knows AND understand this, then you have done no wrong. (As the previous poster created a listing stating NO IPHONE and look at how many bids he has?? When I checked it was zero.)

However, If you INTENTIONALLY attempt to deceive or take advantage of someone by trying to be clever, misleading, etc, etc, then you are nothing but a crook.

For example many of you may have done this or had children do this, but little Johnny reaches up and almost touches the stove. You grab his hand and say NO, don't touch that! It's hot and could burn you. This happens again and again and each time you warn little Johnny that he could hurt himself if he is to touch the stove. But, one day you are out of the kitchen and little Johnny reaches up and touches the stove. Was your intent for Johnny to get hurt? NO! Did it happen anyway? YES! We can not be there for little Johnny all the time, but we do our best to warn little Johnny of the consequences time and time again, but sometimes he still gets burned. Just as you would not INTENTIONALLY pull little Johnny's hand over to the stove and smash it down onto the burner to teach them a lesson, you would not INTENTIONALLY mislead someone by not being clear about the auction. Rather is is your responsibility to inform little Johnny of the consequences, much like ebay requires you to give an accurate description of the item up for auction.

Lastly, not even considering legal matters, I don't see how anyone finds it fair or right to intentionally deceive or otherwise take advantage of another person due to lack of understanding. (Just because they do not understand does not mean they are stupid, ignorant, dumb, or any other degrading term you can think of.) Have you no moral or ethical values? Have you no compassion for other human beings? Has no one ever reached out and helped you? Would you not reach out and help someone else?

[boshii]

Any auction posted in this thread looks completely innocent compared to this one...

http://cgi.ebay.com/iPhone-3G-Sold-out-everywhere-No-Reserve-Box_W0QQitemZ170239818694QQihZ007QQcategoryZ20336QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[alexmarchuk]

Gee, calm down. Last I checked this is America, and we can all say as we like, and speak which ever language we choose.(Being that America has NO official language.) Perhaps the fact that we do have such a large amount of freedom and such a diverse population is one of the reasons/causes for such miscommunication. However, this thread is not about the demise of the American culture, but rather whether or not the auction was listed with the intent to deceive or not.

Now, I agree that it would be silly for someone to go court for this issue, however, as a previous poster mentioned, if for the principal I could completely understand that.

Secondly, I understand that most of us here are not legal professionals, but are merely stating our opinion, so no need to get so worked up.

Third, clearly most if not everyone who has posted in this thread can read, at least above the elementary school level. And, there is no need to attack anyone's personal ability to read or understand something otherwise.

Fourth, I also understand that people should be held accountable for their actions, and be responsible in the decisions they make, however;

If you in good faith list an auction being as clear as possible stating specifically what the winner will receive, and the buyer knows AND understand this, then you have done no wrong. (As the previous poster created a listing stating NO IPHONE and look at how many bids he has?? When I checked it was zero.)

However, If you INTENTIONALLY attempt to deceive or take advantage of someone by trying to be clever, misleading, etc, etc, then you are nothing but a crook.

For example many of you may have done this or had children do this, but little Johnny reaches up and almost touches the stove. You grab his hand and say NO, don't touch that! It's hot and could burn you. This happens again and again and each time you warn little Johnny that he could hurt himself if he is to touch the stove. But, one day you are out of the kitchen and little Johnny reaches up and touches the stove. Was your intent for Johnny to get hurt? NO! Did it happen anyway? YES! We can not be there for little Johnny all the time, but we do our best to warn little Johnny of the consequences time and time again, but sometimes he still gets burned. Just as you would not INTENTIONALLY pull little Johnny's hand over to the stove and smash it down onto the burner to teach them a lesson, you would not INTENTIONALLY mislead someone by not being clear about the auction. Rather is is your responsibility to inform little Johnny of the consequences, much like ebay requires you to give an accurate description of the item up for auction.

Lastly, not even considering legal matters, I don't see how anyone finds it fair or right to intentionally deceive or otherwise take advantage of another person due to lack of understanding. (Just because they do not understand does not mean they are stupid, ignorant, dumb, or any other degrading term you can think of.) Have you no moral or ethical values? Have you no compassion for other human beings? Has no one ever reached out and helped you? Would you not reach out and help someone else?

If you're in America and can't speak English, there's a problem. If you speak English and any other languages, props to you!

Now, mwchris, I'm really starting to get the feeling that you've been gypped through ebay. Why are you defending these people? They're not toddlers.

Let's say seller didn't "intentionally" try to sell a box for $650 lists an auction. People don't read the auction and bid up to $650. They're under no obligation to simply let them slide, you found the leprechauns gold at the end of the rainbow.

"much like ebay requires you to give an accurate description of the item up for auction."

What are you not understanding? I have stated that they're bidding on a box , that is accurate. eBay isn't going to tell me I have to say there is no phone and neither are you. This is MY decision to not write that, as it is clearly sated that I'm selling a box.

Lack of understanding? What can't be understood? More like fat and lazy couch potatoes that are illiterate. Why are some people so hard headed?

Any auction posted in this thread looks completely innocent compared to this one...

http://cgi.ebay.com/iPhone-3G-Sold-out-everywhere-No-Reserve-Box_W0QQitemZ170239818694QQihZ007QQcategoryZ20336QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

That auction dazzled me!

iPhone 3G
*not just a cell phone*
This thing is a revolutionary mobile device!
- All the great features of the worlds greatest cell phone
- Puts the internet in your pocket
- Built in GPS
- And of course the best iPod ever made

Unfortunately, if you win this auction you will not receive any of these great features. In fact, all you will get is the box! Thats correct, you will be the proud owner of the hottest gadget's box! But dont be sad... this box once did hold the new iPhone 3G!!!!!!

So what can you do with this? Well I am not entirely sure, but here are some ideas to get you started.

You can:

- Leave it in the middle of an empty elevator
- Set it at the end of a bench in a lonely park
- Mail it to a friend
-Hand it to a stranger at the Apple store and scream, "CONGRATULATIONS!"

Or you can keep it for yourself and tell your friends:

- "This is actually the very first missing iPhone that Steve Jobs showed off during the WWDC on June 9th."
- "Dang, this invisible shield from Zagg works great"
- "I let Tom Dickson borrow it. He told me that he represented a company called Blendtec. Sounded legit. I'm sure I'll get it back soon"
- "Turns out that NIB stands for not in box"

Again, this is for the iPhone 3G box only! No refunds will be provided

Happy Bidding : )

[thor79]

If you're in America and can't speak English, there's a problem. If you speak English and any other languages, props to you!

Now, mwchris, I'm really starting to get the feeling that you've been gypped through ebay. Why are you defending these people? They're not toddlers.

Let's say seller didn't "intentionally" try to sell a box for $650 lists an auction. People don't read the auction and bid up to $650. They're under no obligation to simply let them slide, you found the leprechauns gold at the end of the rainbow.

"much like ebay requires you to give an accurate description of the item up for auction."

What are you not understanding? I have stated that they're bidding on a box , that is accurate. eBay isn't going to tell me I have to say there is no phone and neither are you. This is MY decision to not write that, as it is clearly sated that I'm selling a box.

Lack of understanding? What can't be understood? More like fat and lazy couch potatoes that are illiterate. Why are some people so hard headed?

There's still the fact that all the boxes for sale are being put into the cell phone and smartphones category...when they clearly don't contain a cell phone or smartphone...and there are other categories specifically for phone accessories. No matter what you put in your description...the fact that it's being put in that category means it IS being described incorrectly. People won't put boxes in the proper category because they know people will not pay $400+ for it in those categories. Thus they are intentionally defrauding them.

[eplchamps0304]

Any auction posted in this thread looks completely innocent compared to this one...

http://cgi.ebay.com/iPhone-3G-Sold-out-everywhere-No-Reserve-Box_W0QQitemZ170239818694QQihZ007QQcategoryZ20336QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I read this auction and it is as clear as day the phone is not included.

[alexmarchuk]

There's still the fact that all the boxes for sale are being put into the cell phone and smartphones category...when they clearly don't contain a cell phone or smartphone...and there are other categories specifically for phone accessories. No matter what you put in your description...the fact that it's being put in that category means it IS being described incorrectly. People won't put boxes in the proper category because they know people will not pay $400+ for it in those categories. Thus they are intentionally defrauding them.

Other might put them into other categories, but my auction is under accessories. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330254172963&_trksid=p3907.m32

[vegas-steven]

if i recall, when the playstation 2 launched back in 1999 someone bought an empty box for close to $1000 not reading the description.

i would personally not purchase it/pay for it if i did bid. still, if you have eons of history on ebay you wouldnt fall for that sort of ploy either.

newbie thing i guess.

[Jphillippe]

Well I just reported all of these listings..I hope all of you do, the link is at the very very bottom of the page to the left. This is misleading info. And I feel bad because other international buyers don't even understand...and just assume since nobody would typically sell a box. WHat a Scam, people are so desperate for money. KARMA is a bitch.

Other might put them into other categories, but my auction is under accessories. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330254172963&_trksid=p3907.m32

love ur honesty, why waste your time?

[flyinmac]

There's still the fact that all the boxes for sale are being put into the cell phone and smartphones category...when they clearly don't contain a cell phone or smartphone...and there are other categories specifically for phone accessories. No matter what you put in your description...the fact that it's being put in that category means it IS being described incorrectly. People won't put boxes in the proper category because they know people will not pay $400+ for it in those categories. Thus they are intentionally defrauding them.

So what...

Is there a category for smartphone boxes?

The categories are not designed to be strictly used for listing purposes. Rather, e-bay provides categories to enable you to pick the place where you believe a given item will receive the most views.

You can place your blender in the smartphone category as well. Doesn't mean you're seeking to fraudulently pass your blender off as a phone. It just means you probably will miss your target buyer.

By comparison, car parts frequently end up in the car section. You are more likely to find car parts and accessories in the car section than in the parts section. Why??? Well, it's simple... there are more people browsing the car section than the parts section. So, you'll attract more eyes.

Computer parts are more frequently listed in the computer section than in the accessory sections. Why??? Well, more eyes will see your item in the computer section than in the accessory section.

The further you drill down in a list of categories for listing, the fewer eyes that will see your auction.

And, that's precisely the reason e-bay offers you the option of listing in two categories. They know that it may not fit one category exactly, but it will give you a different selection of viewers to see your auction.

You'll find headphones in the iPod section. Are they trying to commit fraud? No... They are just placing the headphones where more people will see them. Otherwise, they'd only get eyes that were specifically looking for headphones.

If you put them in the headphone section, you might have it more appropriately categorized, but you'll miss the casual browser who was just looking to see what might be in the iPod section.

It's not fraud. It's smart choices being made to select where you'll get the most views from your potential market.

Describing the product accurately is where it's important.

Aside from that, you can list your underwear in the general underwear section if you choose (for the most views). You are not required (nor is it fraud) if you don't elect to seek and list them in the soiled and crusty subcategory. You'll be perfectly fine as long as you accurately describe what you're selling.

For that matter, perhaps you only wish to sell the wrapping that your underwear came in. No problem, throw it into the general underwear section, and state that the auction is for the wrapper that your underwear was shipped in.

You will not be cited or fined or sued for not stating that the underwear is not in the package. By stating that you are selling the wrapper, you've said what you are selling.

You know, I've been wanting a new truck.... Perhaps I'll go find an auction that says it's the fender of a truck. I'll get it for $100, and then sue because I didn't get the truck. After all, the fender was in the truck section, and his auction did not say that no truck was included. I got confused when I saw a year, make and model.

I thought I was buying a truck that had a fender.

So, where's my truck. I'm filling out the court papers now.

You know what... I'm going to go all out. I am going to buy a pair of those x-ray glasses that you can find listed in every boys magazine. And, I am going to sue the manufacturer for everything they're worth when my x-ray vision glasses arrive and I can't see through women's clothes as I go down the street.

They clearly show in the advertisements that the glasses will permit you to see through things (including your own hand). They clearly target them at boys. So, it is implied that they would be used to see things that boys wish to see.

And, they clearly and 100% without a doubt state that they really work.

And, if I can't see the boobs on every woman I walk past, I'm suing.

Finally, I'll be able to see something... Because I'll sue the pants off them for fraud. I'll walk away with millions (not to mention their pants and the bonus view - I hope they have female lawyers).

Wait... What's that.... You say the judge will look at me and laugh? Why???? Oh, because I should have used my brain and known that they wouldn't have worked when I ordered them???? What do you mean I was supposed to use my head? I thought I could just rely on the seller to disclose everything to me and I'd be fine. They clearly said that the glasses would work. They clearly promised I'd be able to see though anything. And, you're telling me I'd lose the case????

I can't believe that judge would have the nerve to require that I be accountable for using my own brain. I thought everyone else was here to make sure I didn't misunderstand anything.

[kinster]

bidders place high bids to build up the hopes of the seller and make them pay high fees

[flyinmac]

Well I just reported all of these listings..I hope all of you do, the link is at the very very bottom of the page to the left. This is misleading info. And I feel bad because other international buyers don't even understand...and just assume since nobody would typically sell a box. WHat a Scam, people are so desperate for money. KARMA is a bitch.

So, you reported them for selling something that they legitimately have every right to sell? I'll have to remember to report any listing you ever post for a instruction booklet. After-all, you must be committing fraud if you don't include the item with the manual. Even if you say it is for a book, I reporting you for not including the item it is intended to go with.

Well, at least the idiot who thought a computer came with your book will be spared. Of course, you'll be spared the inconvenience of having to collect the money for your book. So, it will benefit everyone all the way around.

I hope you never have anything collectable to sell. Because if you dare to sell a collectable box for say a nice ring, or a collectable velvet pouch, or some other such item, you'll be screwed when everyone here reports your auction because only the pouch or box is provided (doesn't matter that you said that it was for the pouch or box).

The thing about collectable items, is that they are rarely complete. They are usually part of a package. And, the collector will seek the parts he desires or collects. Some collect Apple boxes. Some collect Apple Stickers. Some collect spoons without forks. Some collect wine bottles. Some collect beer bottles. Some collect Pepsi cans.

Now, don't you dare try and sell me wine bottle without the wine. Even if I can clearly see through the container. Even if you say this is for a wine bottle (as opposed to a bottle of wine), I will sue you. I will have your auction suspended. I will come after you.

Come on. Let the buyer read the listing. Let the buyer use their own brain. Let the buyer examine what he is buying. And, quit worrying about whether a listing is clear to everyone who chooses NOT to read it.

If it says what it is, you don't have to say what it isn't.

I think we were taught that around Kindergarten. If you say what something is, you do not have to redundantly state what it is not. Saying what it is automatically says what it is not.

A velvet pouch for diamonds IS NOT a velvet pouch filled with diamonds.

A beautiful box for a ring IS NOT a box with a ring

A size 6 wedding dress for a woman IS NOT a size 6 woman in a wedding dress.

But, with all that in mind, you can safely say that an idiot is an idiot. A fool is a fool. And, both will pay for their mistakes and choices (that is unless you step in to hold their hands for the rest of their life).

Sorry, once you reach the age of being able to obtain your own credit card, you are presumed to be intelligent enough to make decisions on your own and to understand what you are doing. You cannot count on everyone to hold your hand for the rest of your life.


Well, for all the auction police out there, I've found something to keep you busy for years.

So, far, all of the auctions I've seen in this category fail to mention that the items you are purchasing are empty.

So, apparently they are being fraudulent.

http://everythingelse.listings.ebay.com/Funeral-Cemetery_Cemetery-Plots_W0QQfromZR4QQsacatZ88741QQsocmdZListingItemList


So, start reporting. You've got a lot of work to do. A huge amount of fraud is being committed in this section. So far, all the links I've clicked on say they are selling me a container of sorts without clearly stating that said container is empty.

I smell a lawsuit.

Oh, wait.... You mean the judge is going to require me to use my own brain again.... Man, this stuff is hard. I can't believe I am supposed to know what I'm doing. Where is the guy who will guide me through life. I hate having to think for myself.

[tallyho]

If you say what something is, you do not have to redundantly state what it is not. Saying what it is automatically says what it is not.

A velvet pouch for diamonds IS NOT a velvet pouch filled with diamonds.

A beautiful box for a ring IS NOT a box with a ring

A size 6 wedding dress for a woman IS NOT a size 6 woman in a wedding dress.

You're getting very worked up about all this aren't you, old chap?
There is no question that the box-auctions alexmarchuk set up are misleading, because he did not list them as
"A beautiful box for an iPhone". Instead he advertised them as
"iPhone 16GB black **box and accessories**"

By your analogy, you should have worded your examples as

Diamonds **velvet pouch*
or
Wedding Ring **beautiful box**
Both of which suggest to any normal person that you are buying a ring with a beautiful box to go with it.
Yes if you read the rest of his listings, it is apparent that he is selling only the box, not the phone, but it is clearly an attempt to trick people. The guy said he was still at school, with luck he will grow up eventually.

[zync]

That auction dazzled me!

iPhone 3G
*not just a cell phone*
This thing is a revolutionary mobile device!
- All the great features of the worlds greatest cell phone
- Puts the internet in your pocket
- Built in GPS
- And of course the best iPod ever made

Unfortunately, if you win this auction you will not receive any of these great features. In fact, all you will get is the box! Thats correct, you will be the proud owner of the hottest gadget's box! But dont be sad... this box once did hold the new iPhone 3G!!!!!!

So what can you do with this? Well I am not entirely sure, but here are some ideas to get you started.

You can:

- Leave it in the middle of an empty elevator
- Set it at the end of a bench in a lonely park
- Mail it to a friend
-Hand it to a stranger at the Apple store and scream, "CONGRATULATIONS!"

Or you can keep it for yourself and tell your friends:

- "This is actually the very first missing iPhone that Steve Jobs showed off during the WWDC on June 9th."
- "Dang, this invisible shield from Zagg works great"
- "I let Tom Dickson borrow it. He told me that he represented a company called Blendtec. Sounded legit. I'm sure I'll get it back soon"
- "Turns out that NIB stands for not in box"

Again, this is for the iPhone 3G box only! No refunds will be provided

Happy Bidding : )

That auction isn't deceiving either, actually. And it's brilliant! I love it when he says, "unfortunately, if you win this auction you will not receive any of these great features." That is hilarious.

The problem is that people are bidding based on the title, which they shouldn't. Titles are always misleading and not always purposely—eBay restricts the character amount so it's bound to happen. That's why you can't bid from the search page. Really, if they're worried about our safety online they shouldn't let you bid at the top until you've bid at least once.

[chas0001]

Damn it. I have been outbid....

[zync]

flyinmac, that last post was great! I thought everyone else was here to make sure I didn't misunderstand anything, too!

Why did I bother learning all the things that I learned in school? What a waste of time!

If it says what it is, you don't have to say what it isn't.

Exactly. I tried to get that point across, but I guess I wasn't clear. Some people apparently work the other way around. For instance, in production there's a saying: the client doesn't know what they like, they only know what they don't like. Imagine how easy it is to make something the client likes. We could spend all day writing what an auction isn't and at the end of the day you still have no idea what the thing is for. Maybe someone should try that next. I'll get you guys started.

"This isn't an iPhone. It's not a monkey. It's not remarkable, but it's not bland, either. It's not blue, or white, or green, it's not any color really. It's doesn't move, unless you move it. It doesn't eat, unless you feed it, and then it'll stay full until you empty it. You can't put large things inside it, because it isn't large. But the again, it isn't small either. It's not..."

http://everythingelse.listings.ebay.com/Funeral-Cemetery_Cemetery-Plots_W0QQfromZR4QQsacatZ88741QQsocmdZListingItemList


lol! Normally I type that—being the only internet convention I care to use—and I'm not really laughing out loud. This time I laughed out loud. My wife probably thinks I'm nuts now.

You're getting very worked up about all this aren't you, old chap?
There is no question that the box-auctions alexmarchuk set up are misleading, because he did not list them as
"A beautiful box for an iPhone". Instead he advertised them as
"iPhone 16GB black **box and accessories**"

By your analogy, you should have worded your examples as

Diamonds **velvet pouch*
or
Wedding Ring **beautiful box**
Both of which suggest to any normal person that you are buying a ring with a beautiful box to go with it.
Yes if you read the rest of his listings, it is apparent that he is selling only the box, not the phone, but it is clearly an attempt to trick people. The guy said he was still at school, with luck he will grow up eventually.

Now I see why you think as you do. You apparently can't read. That's not Alex's auction. His auction's title reads: iPhone 3G White 16GB Box w/ charger-headphones-manuals! It has been clearly stated multiple times by Mr. Marchuk that that auction wasn't his. Yet you people continue to skim the posts and make erroneous statements.

Thank you for making the process so lucid! I now understand why people need their hands held while making a bid or a post.

Also, Alex was joking when he said, "I'm currently attending my local elementary school, thanks for asking!" He's probably a college student. I think even high schoolers making the arguments that he has made should be considered grown up.

Allow me to quote you again as the following statement doesn't make sense:

Yes if you read the rest of his listings, it is apparent that he is selling only the box, not the phone, but it is clearly an attempt to trick people.

If it is apparent that he's selling only the box, and you've figured it out by doing what you're supposed to do before bidding—reading the auction—then it isn't "clearly an attempt to trick people." If you can figure something out just by reading it, it's not a trick. There's no chicanery in "this is a box and instructions for an iPhone."

[Tallest Skil]

Why is this thread still around, again?

It's a guy capitalizing on the general stupidity of the majority of Internet users. That's ALL that it is.

$550 for a box... isn't that the same as Vista Ultimate at release?

[Nicolecat]

I agree. This has become a thread on how to gyp people...not the original intent, I'm sure. :o

[zync]

I agree. This has become a thread on how to gyp people...not the original intent, I'm sure. :o

It's not become a thread on how to rip people off. None of us are scamming anyone or attempting to scam anyone. We're not talking about tricks of the trade of con artistry.

One side is arguing that these auctions are intentionally misleading. The other is arguing that no one is being promised something they're not wanting to bid on unless they're not paying attention.

If I bid on everything I clicked on from the search page I'd be sorely disappointed. Maybe eBay should change it's policies or process for auction titles and descriptions. Maybe there should also be a common format for an auction, facilitated by an internet form, that only allows certain content to go in certain places? You know, to make it easier to find the important information? Like facebook versus myspace, eBay is like myspace with the way it allows people to list their auctions. They could still make their profit with auction add ons. And maybe, while they're at it, they could require people to actually list their shipping info more clearly, and stop allowing people to jack it up with ridiculous handling charges? Of course, if the article is difficult to actually work with, one could file a claim with eBay explaining why their handling should be more expensive and eBay could approve it or deny it. There are tons of things that could be done to make eBay more consumer friendly than removing auctions that state exactly what you're going to get.

See, this thread actually has potential. Will it change eBay? No, probably not. But then again, if you're really concerned enough—and I don't mean you directly Nicolecat—you could make such suggestions to eBay. If people out there have enough time on their hands to report auctions which are not fraudulent, maybe they have enough time to actually better eBay.

[tallyho]

Zync, you are rather ill mannered aren't you?
Now I see why you think as you do. You apparently can't read. That's not Alex's auction.
I like to think I read at somewhere approaching an average level.
I just listed mine, so go ahead guys, anyone in need of some extras (just incase you lost yours)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330253940700
Then there is a follow up post addressed to "alexmarchuk":
alex, i would strongly suggest removing both sets of ** in your listing. it could be argued that you are using misleading keywords.
Then he responds by missing the point:
Why is it misleading? It's an iPhone 3G 16Gb white box all those keywords are these.
Someone else points it out for him:
we're talking about the asterisks around **box/headphones/etc.** in your listing


If it is apparent that he's selling only the box, and you've figured it out by doing what you're supposed to do before bidding—reading the auction—then it isn't "clearly an attempt to trick people." If you can figure something out just by reading it, it's not a trick. There's no chicanery in "this is a box and instructions for an iPhone."
Clearly, as I pointed out, listing an item as
iPhone 3G White 16GB **Box/charger/headphones/manuals**
when the item is not an iPhone is misleading.

Perhaps you could improve your manners, although I won't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

[Nicolecat]

I don't understand how anyone could read through this thread and say that it hasn't turned into, "How to rip people off on Ebay."

Every five posts is a link to an ebay auction that is...in most cases missing pertinent information...misleading...or highjacked by people running the price up in hopes that potential buyers won't read the description due to the price.

Then, everyone proceeds to comment on how "Brilliant." and "Dazzling"
this is.

I don't understand, how this is relevant to purchasing an iphone...and in the least this thread need to be moved. :rolleyes:

[thor79]

I agree. This has become a thread on how to gyp people...not the original intent, I'm sure. :o

The thread is still around because they are still trying to justify ripping people off. You wouldn't be putting your boxes up for sale if you didn't think you could get a chunk of change for them by trying to dupe people into thinking they are the real thing. There is still a handful of auctions in the Cell Phones and Smartphones category that are for the box only. Nearly all of them I have seen have posted additional information since the start of the auction...adding stuff like "No Phone included". It was probably a requirement to list it under the Cell Phones and Smartphones category...if your listing does not contain the primary item the category is intended for you need to explicitly say the item is not included, otherwise your auction will be moved to a different category like an Accessories category.

Notice how all the auctions which are fully truthful...ie saying "No Phone" and such...haven't moved above $100 since. There is one that went to $200 almost immediately but has had no activity since the seller posted information in the auction explaining there was no phone included. I guarantee the last bidder on that auction is trying to get their bid retracted as a result of that "update".

Amazing how the full truth works.

[alexmarchuk]

Zync, you are rather ill mannered aren't you?

I like to think I read at somewhere approaching an average level.

Then there is a follow up post addressed to "alexmarchuk":

Then he responds by missing the point:

Someone else points it out for him:



Clearly, as I pointed out, listing an item as

when the item is not an iPhone is misleading.

Perhaps you could improve your manners, although I won't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

It's okay, you're a little late into the game. That was the VERY first auction I tried out, so then taking your so called "advice" I edited my auction and re-listed it to make the "auction police" happier.

Please, please tell me this is wrong. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330254172963&_trksid=p3907.m32&_trkparms=tab%3DSelling

If I'm not mistaken that auction has been up for roughly 16 hours.

[Sphyrna]

I think part of the problem is that it's so common to see teh Box listed in the title/description for items. An item New in Box or even With Box will sell better than just the item. I think eBayers are used to seeing the "Box" in the title and just assume it's an auction for the item. I agree it's up to the buyer to properly read the item title and description.

[mwchris]

Flyinmac, I have not been gypped from anyone. You ask if I am defending "these people", perhaps the better question is why are you defending those who are being less than honest?

You seem to ignore my posts when I make a valid argument, and when I ask questions, and quickly fire off an anger ridden post about how people are stupid, ignorant, dumb, idiot, fat, lazy, illiterate or some other degrading term. Why must you insult people? What happened in your life that is making you so angry? Or, what is is that makes you think you are so much better than anyone else? I suppose you are highly educated, in perfect health, and never lay around on the couch, oh and that you never make mistakes??

I have no problem if some one in good faith makes a listing and profits from it. My problem is when the seller INTENTIONALLY makes a listing that is designed to trick, or mislead the seller, because that is criminal activity. I have stated this repeatedly. Please read my analogy about the stove.

Also, look at the auctions where people have clearly stated there is no phone compared to the ones that do not state that. While it may be obvious to you or me that there is not a phone with out it explicitly stating that, it is clear that some people did not understand that judging by the difference in current bid price.

Again, a lack of understanding caused by the INTENT of someone to mislead the buyer is not the fault of the buyer. Now, who decides if it was the INTENT of the seller to mislead the buyer, I suppose that is not up to us, but when the price between a CLEARLY labeled auction and a vague auction differs by $200 I believe it is safe to say that the vague auction is lacking the necessary details to clearly tell the buyer what they are bidding on.

I am not defending people who claim the understand exactly what they are purchasing (which we don't know unless we ask), but rather the people that you seem to think it is OK to take advantage of because they did not know what they were buying BECAUSE the INTENT of the seller was to mislead, or otherwise trick, scam, etc. them into thinking they were getting something they are not.

Please try and understand that it is about the sellers intent - if it is not their intent then just say IT IS A BOX WITH NO IPHONE. It is that easy.


Lastly, your arguments about diamonds, bumpers, and dresses, are just like the Derek Jeter argument someone tried to make, but I can see how if someone was not CLEAR in their description it would be difficult to understand what exactly is being sold.

Clearly "TRUCK BUMPER" is not the same as TRUCK WITH BUMPER" or
"DIAMOND RING BOX" is not the same as "DIAMOND RING WITH BOX", again
it comes down to how clear the seller is being AND what their INTENT IT.

Ultimately, what really bothers me is that YOU and many others are OK with taking advantage of people due to lack of understanding. It has nothing to do with intelligence, how active of not active of a life style they live, or their ability to read or speak the english language. It is the fact that you think it is ok to INTENTIONALLY mislead someone and profit from their lack of understanding.

Again, I ask, do you have no moral or ethical standards? Do you have any compassion for other human beings regardless of their ethnicity and language they speak? Has no one every reached out and helped you? Have you not reached out and helped someone else?

There are enough crooks in this world, why make a listing that could be interpreted as having the intent to mislead, scam, cheat, or otherwise take advantage of a buyer who is unable to clearly understand what is being sold?

(I understand it is their responsibility to read the auction, and only bid if they understand it, but it is the sellers responsibility to provide an accurate listing that clearly describes the item. We all have responsibilities.)


I think part of the problem is that it's so common to see teh Box listed in the title/description for items. An item New in Box or even With Box will sell better than just the item. I think eBayers are used to seeing the "Box" in the title and just assume it's an auction for the item. I agree it's up to the buyer to properly read the item title and description.

Sphyrna, That is a great point, and I agree completely with. The ebay community is so used to putting/seeing the word "box" or "NIB" or "NEW IN BOX" in listing titles people become used to it . Therefore the listing is NOT clear due to a general perception of what it means when one of those words is found in the listing title.

Again, it goes back to the intent of the seller. The only time I care or have a problem is if a seller is INTENTIONALLY trying to scam, mislead, or take advantage of someone by being less than clear about what is being offered.

[thor79]

It's okay, you're a little late into the game. That was the VERY first auction I tried out, so then taking your so called "advice" I edited my auction and re-listed it to make the "auction police" happier.

Please, please tell me this is wrong. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330254172963&_trksid=p3907.m32&_trkparms=tab%3DSelling

If I'm not mistaken that auction has been up for roughly 16 hours.

Yeah nothing wrong with that listing. I wouldn't report it. It's in the correct category...so there's really no need to say "no iPhone" .

I think the only person bidding is hoping to get a cheap set of headphones and a charger for 99 cents...rather than the box.

[AnotherLabRat]

So, you reported them for selling something that they legitimately have every right to sell? I'll have to remember to report any listing you ever post for a instruction booklet. After-all, you must be committing fraud if you don't include the item with the manual. Even if you say it is for a book, I reporting you for not including the item it is intended to go with.

Well, at least the idiot who thought a computer came with your book will be spared. Of course, you'll be spared the inconvenience of having to collect the money for your book. So, it will benefit everyone all the way around.

I hope you never have anything collectable to sell. Because if you dare to sell a collectable box for say a nice ring, or a collectable velvet pouch, or some other such item, you'll be screwed when everyone here reports your auction because only the pouch or box is provided (doesn't matter that you said that it was for the pouch or box).

The thing about collectable items, is that they are rarely complete. They are usually part of a package. And, the collector will seek the parts he desires or collects. Some collect Apple boxes. Some collect Apple Stickers. Some collect spoons without forks. Some collect wine bottles. Some collect beer bottles. Some collect Pepsi cans.

Now, don't you dare try and sell me wine bottle without the wine. Even if I can clearly see through the container. Even if you say this is for a wine bottle (as opposed to a bottle of wine), I will sue you. I will have your auction suspended. I will come after you.

Come on. Let the buyer read the listing. Let the buyer use their own brain. Let the buyer examine what he is buying. And, quit worrying about whether a listing is clear to everyone who chooses NOT to read it.

If it says what it is, you don't have to say what it isn't.

I think we were taught that around Kindergarten. If you say what something is, you do not have to redundantly state what it is not. Saying what it is automatically says what it is not.

A velvet pouch for diamonds IS NOT a velvet pouch filled with diamonds.

A beautiful box for a ring IS NOT a box with a ring

A size 6 wedding dress for a woman IS NOT a size 6 woman in a wedding dress.

But, with all that in mind, you can safely say that an idiot is an idiot. A fool is a fool. And, both will pay for their mistakes and choices (that is unless you step in to hold their hands for the rest of their life).

Sorry, once you reach the age of being able to obtain your own credit card, you are presumed to be intelligent enough to make decisions on your own and to understand what you are doing. You cannot count on everyone to hold your hand for the rest of your life.

You missed that person's point completely. They are speaking of people without the actual ability to completely understand what they are bidding on. You know......not everyone speaks english natively/fluently. Hard as that may be to believe.

In those cases, I wouldn't go as far to say it's fraudulent (not even dishonest), but it's just about as unethical as you can get. They purposely list boxes in such a manner, hoping to take advantage of language barriers. Person's in those situations are going to make some reasonable assumptions, either

1. that THEY must be misinterpreting the item listing and there is in fact a phone included.

or

2. the person listing the item for sale made a legitimate mistake.

You can bet #1 is a majority of the cases. I do, however, have no sympathy for someone that completely understands the auction listing and bids anyway or people who bid without reading the listing in detail. Fools should part with their money.

[alexmarchuk]

You missed that person's point completely. They are speaking of people without the actual ability to completely understand what they are bidding on. You know......not everyone speaks english natively/fluently. Hard as that may be to believe.

In those cases, I wouldn't go as far to say it's fraudulent (not even dishonest), but it's just about as unethical as you can get. They purposely list boxes in such a manner, hoping to take advantage of language barriers. Person's in those situations are going to make some reasonable assumptions, either

1. that THEY must be misinterpreting the item listing and there is in fact a phone included.

or

2. the person listing the item for sale made a legitimate mistake.

You can bet #1 is a majority of the cases. I do, however, have no sympathy for someone that completely understands the auction listing and bids anyway or people who bid without reading the listing in detail. Fools should part with their money.

Not really feeling that whole language thing. eBay is an AMERICAN web site that's written in English, in no way is one required to make the description "multi-lingual friendly". That's why there is a Spanish site for eBay http://www.ebay.es/

No one is telling you to bid on a foreign site.

[flyinmac]

Not really feeling that whole language thing. eBay is an AMERICAN web site that's written in English, in no way is one required to make the description "multi-lingual friendly". That's why there is a Spanish site for eBay http://www.ebay.es/

No one is telling you to bid on a foreign site.

Exactly....

Besides, it's not like his auction (or any auction on e-bay's American site) is specifically targeted at Mexicans, Asians, or anyone else.

They are written in English, targeted at people who speak English.

Now, if the header said this auction is only for people who came to America and cannot speak English fluently, then there might be a valid argument.

But, the auction is not targeted at any specific group of foreigners. It is specifically placed on the American site in English for those who live in America and speak English.

If you don't understand English, then don't make a purchase where all your information is in English without the help of your personal translator.

[Nicolecat]

As in dialects of different languages...there are dialects of the english language too.

British English is different in many aspects from U.S. english...
I'd even go as far to say that northern, and southern parts of the U.S. are different enough to make the average person question certain phrases and words.

I could understand the language argument...if someone didn't grow up around american television or know much about the american culture, then that could be a very viable argument.

All you need to do is visit... http://www.engrish.com/

Edit: some people only know broken english.

[flyinmac]

As in dialects of different languages...there are dialects of the english language too.

British English is different in many aspects from U.S. english...
I'd even go as far to say that northern, and southern parts of the U.S. are different enough to make the average person question certain phrases and words.

I could understand the language argument...if someone didn't grow up around american television or know much about the american culture, then that could be a very viable argument.

All you need to do is visit... http://www.engrish.com/


Now you're grasping.

The sentence in the description was short and concise. And, it will translate exactly the same whether you are from the North or the South in the United States.

I have family all over this country. Southern, Northern, Western, and Eastern (and even pompous Eastern). And, you know what, we would all take that sentence the same way.

Now, if the description were along the lines of:

"yee haw, I gotter un ai-phone thinger what come wit it"

then I could see some room for arguing dialects and a language barrier.

[Nicolecat]

Now you're grasping.

The sentence in the description was short and concise. And, it will translate exactly the same whether you are from the North or the South in the United States.

I have family all over this country. Southern, Northern, Western, and Eastern (and even pompous Eastern). And, you know what, we would all take that sentence the same way.

Now, if the description were along the lines of:

"yee haw, I gotter un ai-phone thinger what come wit it"

then I could see some room for arguing dialects and a language barrier.

Now, see...I still think your not grasping (wholly)...you're somewhat getting it.
Not everyone that is an avid "ebayer" would come from just the United States.

Now, having said that...ebay is in english.
However, someone that only knows broken english can easily mis-read/mis-understand certain things.
Also, some literal translations can be misleading as well. If someone were to read
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330254172963
iPhone 3G White 16GB Box w/ chargers-headphones-manuals

While mindnumbingly obvious to most...I could see how someone could misinterpret it for a list (that happened to include the box)

However, this is definitely...definitely one of the better box auctions I've seen.

Hope that helped clarify my standing on the subject. :o

[zync]

Perhaps you could improve your manners, although I won't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

Perhaps I would if you didn't spread misinformation. Mr. Marchuk does indeed have an auction. However, his was never the one that stated "iPhone 16GB black **box and accessories**" as you quoted a few posts ago.

That was this auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/iPhone-3G-Black-16-GB-Box-and-Instructions_W0QQitemZ170239921195QQihZ007QQcategoryZ3312QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

This is Alex's auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330254172963

Then you quoted the following: we're talking about the asterisks around **box/headphones/etc.** in your listing.

They are two different listings and Alex attempted to clear himself of that about 5 pages ago. So again, it wasn't Alex. The wording you quoted is from the listing posted in the very first message in this thread.

Anyway, I do apologize for being a bit harsh, it was just easy to use you as an example. Maybe that was wrong. I am sorry about that. However, I still stand that you're incorrect. I'm not budging on that one. :)

[zync]

Pardon me, group of fellow macrumors members, but I just don't see how someone is being less than honest by selling their iPhone box and not stating that there is no iPhone in the listing. Before you reply, please read the rest of this post. Say I post an auction with a title of: iPhone 3G box and instructions. In the listing I write: Brand new iPhone 3G box and instructions for an iPhone 3G. Would you consider that to be misleading?

I don't think it's right to take advantage of people regardless of their intelligence, and usually it has nothing to do with intelligence or education but common sense—which is uncommon. The main seller—from the very first post—is definitely trying to make a quick buck by counting on the hype. That I'll agree with. However, intent or not, I believe that he's doing it completely legally. It's not that he didn't say there was an iphone or that there wasn't. The fact is, he said that the auction was for an iPhone BOX and INSTRUCTIONS. The auction is clearly for the box and the instructions and nothing more. The pictures showed the box and the rest of the packaging sans iPhone. How much clearer can one make it?

I understand the argument that non-native English speakers are buying things on eBay. However, it is their responsibility to make sure that they understand what they're buying. I understand French and Spanish, but I wouldn't buy from a French or Spanish auction without finding a fluent speaker to translate it for me. There are sometimes subtle nuances in language that native speakers will understand better, and it's not always worded to intentionally trick you. It's worded that way because it's common in that language and not something taught in books. Also, let's not forget that in this case there are still pictures.

Also, dialects of English, like British English, do indeed exist, however there is still the issue of eBay being an American site. Again, if you don't understand something, you should ask someone who speaks that version of the language. Also, British English is pretty far off in some rare instances, but for the most part items are named the same. It is also completely irrelevant in this case where box means box in all English dialects.

For people that only understand broken English, or no English at all, there is probably an eBay site for them. It's localized to over thirty other countries. I'm sure they could find an eBay for their language. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBay#International If you can't find your item on those and need to check the American version caveat emptor.

[Zengrok]

Pardon me, group of fellow macrumors members, but I just don't see how someone is being less than honest by selling their iPhone box and not stating that there is no iPhone in the listing. Before you reply, please read the rest of this post. Say I post an auction with a title of: iPhone 3G box and instructions. In the listing I write: Brand new iPhone 3G box and instructions for an iPhone 3G. Would you consider that to be misleading?

I don't think it's right to take advantage of people regardless of their intelligence, and usually it has nothing to do with intelligence or education but common sense—which is uncommon. The main seller—from the very first post—is definitely trying to make a quick buck by counting on the hype. That I'll agree with. However, intent or not, I believe that he's doing it completely legally. It's not that he didn't say there was an iphone or that there wasn't. The fact is, he said that the auction was for an iPhone BOX and INSTRUCTIONS. The auction is clearly for the box and the instructions and nothing more. The pictures showed the box and the rest of the packaging sans iPhone. How much clearer can one make it?

I understand the argument that non-native English speakers are buying things on eBay. However, it is their responsibility to make sure that they understand what they're buying. I understand French and Spanish, but I wouldn't buy from a French or Spanish auction without finding a fluent speaker to translate it for me. There are sometimes subtle nuances in language that native speakers will understand better, and it's not always worded to intentionally trick you. It's worded that way because it's common in that language and not something taught in books. Also, let's not forget that in this case there are still pictures.

Also, dialects of English, like British English, do indeed exist, however there is still the issue of eBay being an American site. Again, if you don't understand something, you should ask someone who speaks that version of the language. Also, British English is pretty far off in some rare instances, but for the most part items are named the same. It is also completely irrelevant in this case where box means box in all English dialects.

For people that only understand broken English, or no English at all, there is probably an eBay site for them. It's localized to over thirty other countries. I'm sure they could find an eBay for their language. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EBay#International If you can't find your item on those and need to check the American version caveat emptor.

If the buyer receives something different than what they thought they were buying, then it's misleading and deceptive. Simple and clear.

[GAS]

If the buyer receives something different than what they thought they were buying, then it's misleading and deceptive. Simple and clear.

No. If the buyer receives something different than what was advertised when they bought it, then it's misleading and deceptive. Simple and clear.

[flyinmac]

If the buyer receives something different than what they thought they were buying, then it's misleading and deceptive. Simple and clear.

No.... If the buyer receives something other than what they were told they were buying, then it was deceptive.

I've purchased a lot of things in-person at the local store and thought it would work the way I wanted it to work. But, realized after getting home that I had just misunderstood what I read. No one lied to me. I just failed to take my time and failed to make sure that I fully understood what I was buying.

It is up to the buyer to make sure that they know what they are buying.

You are only deceived if the seller lies to you. And, that is always a risk with transactions through the mail.

But, in this case, the item being sold is what it says it is.

If you didn't understand what you were buying, then you didn't read it. And, that responsibility falls on you as the buyer.

If you don't understand what you're buying, then you shouldn't buy.

My wife sent me to the store for some specific type onions. Well, I know what an onion looks like, and little more than that. So, I get there. I look around, and unfortunately, none of the onions are labeled exactly with what I need to purchase the right ones.

So, if I buy the wrong one, was there fraud? No, I just failed to equip myself with enough knowledge to purchase what I was after.

Same here... If you buy something, and if we believe that it's because you don't understand the nuances of the English language... Then, you have failed to properly equip yourself with enough knowledge to make that purchase.

If you are unable to distinguish between the meanings and nuances of a given language get help from someone who can.

I didn't buy the onion without getting help from someone to translate what I was looking for into the options presented in front of me.

And, you shouldn't buy something based on an English description if you cannot understand the nuances of the English language (or have someone to help).

[zync]

No. If the buyer receives something different than what was advertised when they bought it, then it's misleading and deceptive. Simple and clear.

Thanks. I couldn't have said it better.

That goes to both you, and flyinmac.

[Chedam]

OK.

I'm a new member.

But even I know when to stop.

Can everyone plz **** about fraud and that stuff and see the lighter side of this thread? It was originally intended as a joke, and some stupid guy decided to make a huge thing out of it. I got to Page 5, and said 'Screw it'.

Theres this awesome image I've found on the internet.


http://www.darkfire.net/~mrb/images/retarded.jpg

I rest my case.

[zync]

OK.

I'm a new member.

But even I know when to stop.

Can everyone plz **** about fraud and that stuff and see the lighter side of this thread? It was originally intended as a joke, and some stupid guy decided to make a huge thing out of it. I got to Page 5, and said 'Screw it'.

Theres this awesome image I've found on the internet.

I rest my case.

Nah, it's fun. I personally enjoy internet arguments because I like to see what points the opposition brings. Besides, practicing online debate helps you with your real life arguments, too—which may actually count for something. I also believe that it helps with critical thinking and intelligence. The ability to express your thoughts succinctly is important in everyday life, so why not practice it?

Oh, by the way, while that was a clever way to present it, all of us have heard it before and we all continue to argue. If you don't want to read it you don't have to. That's the great thing about everything that involves reading!

Besides, it's not nice to make fun of people in the Special Olympics, as Johnny Knoxville has taught us. :D

Newbie for the win? I do not concur.

[flyinmac]

Besides, it's not nice to make fun of people in the Special Olympics

Exactly...

And doesn't that go against the rules here anyway? That seems patently offensive (and derogatory).

I should flag you... But, instead, I'll let the others decide for themselves. I'm sure there's a mod watching this anyway.

Besides, the theoretical fools who supposedly don't know the difference between an iPhone and a box for an iPhone are as they are because they choose not to learn and choose not to educate themselves to understand the language that surrounds them.

The individual in the picture posted had no control over how he was born. But, despite his setbacks is doing more for himself than most people who have every advantage available will do for themselves.



Newbie for the win? I do not concur.

Newbie for the ban list I think....

[zync]

Newbie for the ban list I think....

That'd teach 'em for speaking out of turn, lol.

[flyinmac]

I am trying to figure out why so many people are trying to defend a person who hasn't even complained about the item they won in the auction.

To this point, all we know is he won an item at a price many of us would not pay.

But, we have no way of knowing if he is happy or unhappy with it. And, yet everyone wants to defend him.

Perhaps he is quite content with his winnings.

Or, perhaps he isn't even a real person.


Meanwhile, if a user comes here, and states that his computer is having all kinds of issues, is constantly failing, and has been nothing but trouble since the day he got it, then everyone quickly jumps all over him for spreading untruths.

Everyone will ride him until he submits and leaves the forums because he dared to say something that cast possible shadows on the Almighty Apple and Lord Steve Jobs.

Doesn't matter that he has a real problem with is computer. Doesn't matter that Apple is refusing to make it right for him. Doesn't matter that he's essentially screwed. You defenders will jump all over his case because you don't like someone saying that Apple may have let this guy down and sold him a lemon.

All you have to do is search the forums, and you'll find tons of cases where everyone gets their panties all bunched up because someone dared to say something they didn't like about Apple and Lord Steve.

But, funny how you're all there to provide support and defend a guy who hasn't even stated he has a problem. As far as we can tell, he's perfectly happy with his purchase (assuming he's even real).

At least the priorities are in the right place... Screw the new Apple user who's having trouble with their machine. All we care about is that Lord Steve got his money.

[Chedam]

I'll drink to that.

When I'm old enough.

And by the way, I wasn't trying to get down on people with disabilities. It was meant to be a firm point to those who were making a big deal out of nothing.

And finally, I'm not a noob.

I'm just new to this site.

[zync]

I'll drink to that.

When I'm old enough.

And by the way, I wasn't trying to get down on people with disabilities. It was meant to be a firm point to those who were making a big deal out of nothing.

And finally, I'm not a noob.

I'm just new to this site.

We know. We're just hassling you!

[Scott6666]

What's wrong with all of you people? Pages and pages of comments and none that seem to say they reported this to Ebay or the buyer (perhaps I missed it in the sea of arguments).

I reported this to Ebay and send a message to the poor buyer. Hopefully he won't get screwed for everyone's intellectual amusement.

By the way, the buyer is from Thailand; s/he may not appreciate the nuances you all are debating. Maybe s/he is just getting screwed.

[flyinmac]

What's wrong with all of you people? Pages and pages of comments and none that seem to say they reported this to Ebay or the buyer (perhaps I missed it in the sea of arguments).

I reported this to Ebay and send a message to the poor buyer. Hopefully he won't get screwed for everyone's intellectual amusement.

By the way, the buyer is from Thailand; s/he may not appreciate the nuances you all are debating. Maybe s/he is just getting screwed.

Really????

You too???

You reported an auction for selling what it said it was selling. And, you contacted the buyer (against e-bay's rules since you are not in a transaction with him) and informed him of what was already clearly stated in the auction?

OK, so you say he is a bidder from Thailand....

So, now I have another question. What is he doing on e-bay in the United States?

Why is he even bidding on an auction that specifically says it will ship to the United States?

The auction does not indicate anywhere that it will ship outside of the United States.

When you set up an auction, e-bay asks you where you are willing to ship to. And, it adds all those options to the auction for you. So, he did not have any control over the fact that the auction did not list everywhere he wouldn't ship to.

As a standard auction, it says where he will ship. And, it clearly says "United States".

Further, his shipping options and rate quote system only provide shipping costs for the United States.

So, at this point, there is nothing the buyer can do. He has agreed to purchase an item, and is obligated to provide a U.S. Address for him to ship it to.

Or, the seller can cancel the sale and leave a negative on the buyer.

The auction is clearly targeted at U.S.A. buyers. It is not even an option to sell it outside of the United States.

It's the buyers fault for anything that happens at this point. He bid on the wrong e-bay. He bid on an auction that did not offer to sell to him.

And, he's the one who's on the hook now.

Technically, it's the buyer that is at greater risk of being penalized. At least you brought it to e-bays attention so they can properly penalize the buyer. Good move.

If the buyer does not provide a United States address, then it will be the buyer who is in breach of contract.

Now, if you are saying that he is an American buyer who is originally from Thailand, then he does (and has had) the opportunity to learn the language he is surrounded by. And, if he refuses to learn the language of the country, then he can at least enlist the help of a friend to ensure that he understands what he is doing.

[mhnajjar]

I do not see anything wrong with the post. The seller states "BOX" and "INSTRUCTIONS" so what is wrong with that?

He did not mention anything of the "phone" itself, but that is the buyer's duty to ask if the ad seems to be unclear.


I shows this to my friend and he was "daaaaaaaaaaaaamn man it is so chea" :eek: .. I was :D "are you stupid, this is just a box and instructions, can't you read?" LOL!

[boshii]

I agree. This has become a thread on how to gyp people...not the original intent, I'm sure. :o

My thread grew into a MONSTER :eek:

[zync]

My thread grew into a MONSTER :eek:

Don't worry, it never became a "how to."

By the way Nicolecat, nice advice earlier for someone to defraud Apple by fudging with the water indicator in an iPhone. Apparently it's not ok to scam people out of money, but it is ok to scam Apple out of money. Caught you! :)

Don't take this to heart. I'm just messing with you.

[Cartaphilus]

This conversation really does raise interesting ethical questions, even if the legal question is not as interesting. Legally, of course, the question becomes one of fact, and a jury or a judge sitting alone would have to decide whether under all the circumstances a reasonable person to whom the listing was directed would have been misled by the listing. All the arguments made in this thread would likely be made and considered, and identical listings could result in different findings, just as the posters here have differed.

Ethically, though, I wonder how much difference there really is. Is seems to be unanimous that someone whose intention is to deceive should not be permitted to profit from the resulting deception, and it also appears to be accepted generally that a buyer who acts unreasonably, whether through haste or incompetence is not entitled to relief. The disagreement appears to be between those who believe that a seller is permitted to carefully craft his listing to purposely ensnare only the hasty or incompetent, and those who deem such behavior impermissable.

Although electronically-facilitated auctions may be relatively new, this debate regarding the ethics of placing a stumbling block before the blind is ancient.

[sr5878]

http://meowcheese.com/files/lolpics/2008/04/y-u-outbid-me.jpg


@ zync: saw that too ;) busted!

[Nicolecat]

Don't worry, it never became a "how to."

By the way Nicolecat, nice advice earlier for someone to defraud Apple by fudging with the water indicator in an iPhone. Apparently it's not ok to scam people out of money, but it is ok to scam Apple out of money. Caught you! :)

Don't take this to heart. I'm just messing with you.


There's a difference in playing the devil's advocate...and a joke.

Obviously, you didn't get that mine was a joke. :D

Not taken to heart...

[tallyho]

Perhaps I would if you didn't spread misinformation. Mr. Marchuk does indeed have an auction. However, his was never the one that stated "iPhone 16GB black **box and accessories**" as you quoted a few posts ago.

Er, yes it was. Did you read my post?
I just listed mine, so go ahead guys, anyone in need of some extras (just incase you lost yours)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330253940700
Are you arguing because I wrote "black" and he listed "white"? The issue wasn't the colour, it was the use of asterisks. The guy himself replied:
It's okay, you're a little late into the game. That was the VERY first auction I tried out



Then you quoted the following: we're talking about the asterisks around **box/headphones/etc.** in your listing.
They are two different listings and Alex attempted to clear himself of that about 5 pages ago. So again, it wasn't Alex. The wording you quoted is from the listing posted in the very first message in this thread.

Um, he says it was him!


Anyway, I do apologize for being a bit harsh, it was just easy to use you as an example. Maybe that was wrong. I am sorry about that. However, I still stand that you're incorrect. I'm not budging on that one. :)
Well, in your own words, perhaps you shouldn't spread misinformation. I hope you are "budging" now :rolleyes:

[Sweetbike40]

My thread grew into a MONSTER :eek:

this thread has become very interesting to read. Its a keeper. I personally think the seller is not at fault. He provided a photo. A photo speaks a thousand words. In any language.

[zync]

Er, yes it was. Did you read my post? Are you arguing because I wrote "black" and he listed "white"? The issue wasn't the colour, it was the use of asterisks.

No. One was **Box and Instructions** and one was **box/headphones/etc.** It doesn't have much to do with black and white, however that does prove that his is not the listing originally posted.

Alex did originally used the asterisks, but the listing you were talking about, which was the original listing discussed in this thread, was not his listing. He later removed them while the original listing was not. I linked to both. But I'll do it again for the sake of clarity.

Original Listing:
http://cgi.ebay.com/iPhone-3G-Black-16-GB-Box-and-Instructions_W0QQitemZ170239921195QQihZ007QQcategoryZ3312QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Alex's listing:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330253940700


Um, he says it was him!
Again, you misunderstand. He says you're a little late to the game, i.e. you're missing information.

Well, in your own words, perhaps you shouldn't spread misinformation. I hope you are "budging" now :rolleyes:

I don't need to, I'm correct.

Here you go.

It begins on page three. No one originally equated Alex with the original auction. But then certain replies got misconstrued and eventually people thought it was him.

Quit trying to justify your scamming of other people. You are a low life piece of ****.

I never sold the ****ing thing, don't get your panties all wet, I was defending the seller. I listed auctions to actually test all this out at my expense.

Then, on page 4.

Do I know you are a crook? Nope.
Do I know whether you took an action that is arguably fraudulent? Yes

Oh please, Internet fraud? Criminal? Go have a word with OJ. Do something that's actually important.

I'm 100% sure this wouldn't stand a chance in court.

Well, you can be "100% sure" of whatever you like. The $650 price might be too low to make it a felony, but it's a misdemeanor at least. Plus, it's a federal crime at any size, because it's in interstate commerce. Blow your "100% sure" smoke all you want, but you'll likely get nailed.

Please keep in mind that the selling price of the original auction was $650 dollars. Thus this post begins to equate Alex's listing with the original auction.

Even though Alex posts links to both auctions, platbr kind of puts them together.

So you listed a cardboard box in the "Cell Phones & Smartphones" category, right alongside other "Cell Phones & Smartphones," and you didn't intend to defraud people, Mr. Marchuck? You were going to accept $650 from buyer jonrosa, and you didn't once think he might be making a mistake? And you listed your item with the first words "iPhone 3G Black 16 GB ***Box and Instructions***." Isn't it reasonable to assume that a buyer might be mistaken as to whether they were buying an iPhone with a Box and Instructions, rather than a box for an iPhone?

You'd go down for fraud in a heartbeat if you took somebody's money.

And finally:

You'd go down for stupidity. First of all, it's Mr. Marchuk, Thank you.
Second, please examine your facts, that is not my auction is any way, shape or form. jonrosa was the seller, unless they won their own auction.

Now, if you were talking about some other auction, fine. But realize that my point in making any fuss at all is because after this, a few people thought Alex was the seller jonrosa from the original listing, and he is not. You might be talking about something completely different, but this is the backstory to this particular event in the thread.

I was simply defending Alex.

[preguntonontrac]

Anyone got an Ebay link with an actual feedback to one of this boxes already sold?

[zync]

Also. You quoted me saying this.

Perhaps I would if you didn't spread misinformation. Mr. Marchuk does indeed have an auction. However, his was never the one that stated "iPhone 16GB black **box and accessories**" as you quoted a few posts ago.

That was this auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/iPhone-3G-Black-16-GB-Box-and-Instructions_W0QQitemZ170239921195QQihZ007QQcategoryZ3312QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

This is Alex's auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330254172963

I provided a larger quote to make my point more lucid. As I was simply stating that those two auctions were not by the same person, and I believe that this is enough to make that clear, but I'll continue.

Er, yes it was. Did you read my post?

Are you arguing because I wrote "black" and he listed "white"? The issue wasn't the colour, it was the use of asterisks.

This issue is that there were TWO listings with asterisks.

we're talking about the asterisks around **box/headphones/etc.** in your listing

The first listing, which is still up, stated: iPhone 3G Black 16 GB ***Box and Instructions***

The second, Alex's, stated something akin to: iPhone 3G White 16GB**box/charger/headphones/manuals**

Because he was copying the auction in a less sinister fashion. He has since removed the asterisks because, as he said, the "auction police" complained.

I know that you were talking to him originally about his use of asterisks, but by that time he had already removed them. You quoted his listing with the exact title of the original listing, therefore you were equating him with the original listing by jonrosa. So I decided to correct you in a less than nice fashion, which I have already apologized for. This may have been a misunderstanding, but I felt that you were attacking Alex for doing things in his auction that he had already retracted.

Well, in your own words, perhaps you shouldn't spread misinformation. I hope you are "budging" now :rolleyes:

I realize that it is most likely a misunderstanding from someone who probably didn't read the whole thread, but I've read it all the way through and understand what's happened already.

There's a difference in playing the devil's advocate...and a joke.

Obviously, you didn't get that mine was a joke. :D

Not taken to heart...

Didn't seem like one to me or to the people that replied to you, but if you say it is, I'll let it lie.

[muldul]

That's just worrying, poor person who bought that in the end, well they have 7 days to return it.

[eplchamps0304]

That's just worrying, poor person who bought that in the end, well they have 7 days to return it.

I wouldnt think so. I wouldnt accept returns if i was the seller.

[zync]

I wouldnt think so. I wouldnt accept returns if i was the seller.

I would think so. That's the terms of the auction. That doesn't mean he would follow through with it, but that is what it says.

[tallyho]

No. One was **Box and Instructions** and one was **box/headphones/etc.** It doesn't have much to do with black and white, however that does prove that his is not the listing originally posted.

Alex did originally used the asterisks, but the listing you were talking about, which was the original listing discussed in this thread, was not his listing.
Cool, you certainly have a lot of time on your hands to write such lengthy posts, so rather than dancing on the head of a pin (as you're doing by differentiating "**Box and Instructions**" from "**box/headphones/etc.**"), I'll make my final correction: the listing I was talking about was Alex's first listing, that's why I mentioned his name. You have assumed I was talking about some other one (based on a spurious distinction of what was inside the asterisks, when my point was about the asterisks themselves), and then came out with your "You apparently can't read" comments.

You subsequently said that he "never" listed items in such a manner (the use of asterisks) even when the guy himself said that he did so on his first attempt at an eBay listing (that listing is post #31 on this thread, for your information). And finally you just can't let it lie and keep on posting massive posts selectively quoting what others have written.

Well, I know that's how some people have fun on teh internets but it's become a little boring now.

For the record, there's no point being sanctimonious about people being mislead on eBay - anyone should have been able to see that the ebay listing was for a box, but as I wrote, the use of asterisks was misleading. Most people would agree that
Diamond Wedding Ring **beautiful box**
is not the same as
Beautiful Box for Diamond Wedding Ring

That was the point I made, and if you can agree with that we can just move on. :cool:

[kinster]

That's just worrying, poor person who bought that in the end, well they have 7 days to return it.

Just because it ended at that price doesn't mean they paid up

[zync]

Cool, you certainly have a lot of time on your hands to write such lengthy posts, so rather than dancing on the head of a pin (as you're doing by differentiating "**Box and Instructions**" from "**box/headphones/etc.**"), I'll make my final correction: the listing I was talking about was Alex's first listing, that's why I mentioned his name. You have assumed I was talking about some other one (based on a spurious distinction of what was inside the asterisks, when my point was about the asterisks themselves), and then came out with your "You apparently can't read" comments.

You subsequently said that he "never" listed items in such a manner (the use of asterisks) even when the guy himself said that he did so on his first attempt at an eBay listing (that listing is post #31 on this thread, for your information). And finally you just can't let it lie and keep on posting massive posts selectively quoting what others have written.

Well, I know that's how some people have fun on teh internets but it's become a little boring now.

For the record, there's no point being sanctimonious about people being mislead on eBay - anyone should have been able to see that the ebay listing was for a box, but as I wrote, the use of asterisks was misleading. Most people would agree that
Diamond Wedding Ring **beautiful box**
is not the same as
Beautiful Box for Diamond Wedding Ring

That was the point I made, and if you can agree with that we can just move on. :cool:

To be clear, I meant that he never listed them as **box and instructions** like the original post. Also, yes, I agree with your final statements so we're finally in accord. It was sunday morning, for once I did have the time. However, as you would surely agree, it has become long in the tooth.

[FaustArp]

It does not matter how you list it, every one that looks at it is going to try and find something absolutely ridiculous and say it's fraud. I am actually personally tired of hearing this. Lets just make this clear. I have a listing on now like i said I would earlier. I listed it clearly as a box would be worth and a reasonably price (.99). People are bidding on it like crazy. I have that it clearly states no phone is included. It has been on for 3 days and someone bid $300 on it. Im sending messages to everyone who bids to let them realize if they are understanding this is a box. No ones trying to d1ick anyone over here. If i wanted to make money I'd post my box buy it now $500, but i didn't. If someone wants to buy my box for $300 why in the hell would I argue. I'll let them know, but if they decide they don't want to keep contact or respond, it's there loss not mine. Welcome to planet earth, the home of the crazy..

[boshii]

Anyone got an Ebay link with an actual feedback to one of this boxes already sold?

I doubt anyone actually followed through and paid.

[alexmarchuk]

I have several legitimate bidders and several new users bidding. I purposely made it to show everyone how something that's described as is, put it the right category could be sold.

Thanks to all in this discussion.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=330254172963

http://h4xr.org/7jz4

[Sphere777]

LOL. Man, my box is going straight to eBay once I find one of these damn phones.

[Nicolecat]

I'm still holding my breath for the email you get when the person receives the phone...get's ebay involved and wants a refund.

In the meantime though...I truly am speechless. :eek:

[optophobia]

Winning bidder is in Thailand ie. he aint paying.

[alexmarchuk]

LOL. Man, my box is going straight to eBay once I find one of these damn phones.

Make sure you take photos that include your name, that's ebay's policy on iPhones.

I'm still holding my breath for the email you get when the person receives the phone...get's ebay involved and wants a refund.

In the meantime though...I truly am speechless. :eek:

I don't accept returns. If eBay looks at that auction, they'll see what 35 bids were made for. I have to say though these bidders with NO feedback are like little trouble makers, they're the ones that made it rise all the way to $200 initially.

[zync]

I have several legitimate bidders and several new users bidding. I purposely made it to show everyone how something that's described as is, put it the right category could be sold.

Thanks to all in this discussion.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=330254172963

http://h4xr.org/7jz4

Nice. Please, AT&T ship me my damn phone so I can legitimately sell my box for it's value!

[alexmarchuk]

After all, I see the prices of the current items on eBay.

iPhone: $400-500
iPhone 3G: Upwards of $1,000

and a nice little box to wow your friends with: $360

[FaustArp]

did the guy actually pay you through paypal?

[alexmarchuk]

did the guy actually pay you through paypal?

Yes, please see above post.

[Saladinos]

If you mentioned clearly on the auction site that it was for the box only, then you should be alright. Don't expect this not to go to court, though.

You should look in to the laws relating to sale of goods in your country (especially if you're in the EU). Some countries have laws that guarantee a right to return goods within a certain timeframe, even from private sales (regardless if on internet or face-to-face).

You can't play the stupid card in a legal case like this. You can't say you didn't know people would misunderstand it. It's pretty obvious you're out to scam people. Unless you made it blindingly obvious, and the judge accepts that you did your best to avoid confusion, you're going to be out at a huge loss with this.

Some people do just buy weird things, though. If that's the case, you're lucky - you won't get sued. It's a massive risk. My advice would be not to do it. This kind of thing isn't new - you're not being clever, and there will be hundreds of other cases for a prosecutor to refer to. I don't imagine the judge will really care what you have to say in most cases.

Like I said before, the law is about creating fairness in society. People always try to exploit other people, and the law tries to determine a fair settlement. The current system of judges and laws works in that respect. If it didn't, we wouldn't still have it. Don't think you've found some technical loophole in the law - because those don't exist, despite what Hollywood tells you. Judges decide what's fair, and if you're trying to scam someone in to buying something from you under false (either direct lying, or by omission), you will get caught out. Not only will you have to repay the money (and possibly more), but you'll also have to pay the legal fees.

[volsfan]

for that price i would just buy an iphone and bay the early termination fee

[Sphere777]

blah, blah, blah...


Thank you, Saladinos, for successfully touching upon everything that we've beaten to bloody death here in this thread. Perhaps you'll read through it before contributing next time.

[A Pittarelli]

youd think that people who stop amazing you at some point, but wow man. i mean really, WOW.

[alexmarchuk]

gibberish....

Thankfully, I don't live in the EU.

[kinster]

I have several legitimate bidders and several new users bidding. I purposely made it to show everyone how something that's described as is, put it the right category could be sold.

Thanks to all in this discussion.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=330254172963

http://h4xr.org/7jz4

wait for the PayPal chargeback LOL

[alexmarchuk]

wait for the PayPal chargeback LOL

Already transfered it.

[MacBoy08]

This is actually pretty funny. Nice description of your white iPhone box. Haha.



i wont lie..with a description of the product that thorough



you make that box and never used headphones from the monumental day sound DAMN good buddy.




i woulda bit...haha




so kidding...they are turds

[zync]

Thank you, Saladinos, for successfully touching upon everything that we've beaten to bloody death here in this thread. Perhaps you'll read through it before contributing next time.

Haha, nice. I was reading that and thinking, "here we go again."

[kinster]

Already transfered it.

Paypal can retrieve it from your linked accounts LOL

[platbr]

I have several legitimate bidders and several new users bidding. I purposely made it to show everyone how something that's described as is, put it the right category could be sold.

Thanks to all in this discussion.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=330254172963

http://h4xr.org/7jz4

I don't know if your buyer is real or not, or if they actually paid you. If they did, you know this is fraud. Your buyer does not think he/she is buying a "box" for the iPhone product, and not the real thing. Plus, with all this discussion, you knew or should have known that what you were doing was fraud. I have contacted your buyer and given them the names and phone numbers for the United States Attorney's office in your home town -- Colonia, New Jersey -- in case they actually paid you for this. It may be that the U.S. Attorney sends them to the local cops because it's such a small purchase, but this is fraud. Your title alone is misleading. I hope you get nailed for this, and with copies of this thread, and all your statements, you probably will. You're out of line, Mr. Marchuk, and you've even been so stupid as to openly identify yourself and commit fraud with stated intent to dupe "stupid" ebay buyers.

Here's the email I sent to your buyer:

Ebay User CRUNCHEX (his real name is Alex Marchuk) recently sold you an item, an iPhone box, for $360 in eBay auction no. 330254172963.

CRUNCHEX sold you ONLY the box, not a new iPhone. There will be no iPhone in the box -- it was a scam and a ripoff. User CRUNCHEX has bragged about ripping you off on an internet discussion board at macrumors.com. If you have already paid for this item, I can help you get in touch with the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), US law enforcement which investigates crimes such as mail fraud. I can also help you contact the United States Attorneys' Office for the District of New Jersey, which prosecutes mail fraud.

You can contact the United States Attorneys' Office at:

Newark U.S. Attorney's Office
970 Broad Street, 7th Floor
Newark, NJ 07102
973-645-2700

You can also file a claim through PayPal and Ebay for fraud, to get your money back. If you have any questions please respond via email and I'll try to help.

Talking about fraud, deception, trick, etc., in the abstract is a nice academic discussion. Actually committing the fraud is pretty galling. Part of me feels like this discussion has crossed the line into giving Mr. Marchuk both an incentive (proving we're all stupid/wrong) and a place to brag about his crime.

[Ouhei]

I don't know if your buyer is real or not, or if they actually paid you. If they did, you know this is fraud. Your buyer does not think he/she is buying a "box" for the iPhone product, and not the real thing. Plus, with all this discussion, you knew or should have known that what you were doing was fraud. I have contacted your buyer and given them the names and phone numbers for the United States Attorney's office in your home town -- Colonia, New Jersey -- in case they actually paid you for this. It may be that the U.S. Attorney sends them to the local cops because it's such a small purchase, but this is fraud. Your title alone is misleading. I hope you get nailed for this, and with copies of this thread, and all your statements, you probably will. You're out of line, Mr. Marchuk, and you've even been so stupid as to openly identify yourself and commit fraud with stated intent to dupe "stupid" ebay buyers.

Here's the email I sent to your buyer:

Ebay User CRUNCHEX (his real name is Alex Marchuk) recently sold you an item, an iPhone box, for $360 in eBay auction no. 330254172963.

CRUNCHEX sold you ONLY the box, not a new iPhone. There will be no iPhone in the box -- it was a scam and a ripoff. User CRUNCHEX has bragged about ripping you off on an internet discussion board at macrumors.com. If you have already paid for this item, I can help you get in touch with the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), US law enforcement which investigates crimes such as mail fraud. I can also help you contact the United States Attorneys' Office for the District of New Jersey, which prosecutes mail fraud.

You can contact the United States Attorneys' Office at:

Newark U.S. Attorney's Office
970 Broad Street, 7th Floor
Newark, NJ 07102
973-645-2700

You can also file a claim through PayPal and Ebay for fraud, to get your money back. If you have any questions please respond via email and I'll try to help.

Talking about fraud, deception, trick, etc., in the abstract is a nice academic discussion. Actually committing the fraud is pretty galling. Part of me feels like this discussion has crossed the line into giving Mr. Marchuk both an incentive (proving we're all stupid/wrong) and a place to brag about his crime.
No lawyer here, but how exactly is his title misleading? It describes exactly what the person is buying. His item description makes it painfully obvious that it is just the box and accessories. He listed under accessories.

Do people not have the right to sell whatever they want?

Now, would I have listed my iPhone box like he did? Nope, not worth the possible trouble IMO. I might have listed for a joke as he did, but I don't know if I would accept payment. But that stems from a guilty conscious, because I don't think a box is worth $360. I really fail to see how something clearly listed as a box and accessories can be viewed as fraud?

[Tallest Skil]

I really fail to see how something clearly listed as a box and accessories can be viewed as fraud?

Yep. He explicitly stated that there was no iPhone included. It is the bidder's fault for not reading.

Money is made every day because people are idiots. The only way to stop it is to educate them.

[platbr]

No lawyer here, but how exactly is his title misleading? It describes exactly what the person is buying. His item description makes it painfully obvious that it is just the box and accessories. He listed under accessories.

Well, somebody having actually been duped, a "post mortem" on whether the title was actually misleading is purely academic. It was misleading enough to trick somebody into paying $360 for what Mr. Marchuk listed as only a box. It's fraud by deception or trick. By listing "iPhone 3G White 16GB Box w/ charger-headphones-manuals!" Mr. Marchuk tricked somebody into paying $360 for a worthless piece of cardboard.

And I am a lawyer, and I've had a fair bit of experience with internet fraud. By actually taking money -- which is what Mr. Marchuk has admitted to doing (whether or not it actually happened is a question) -- if it actually happened, he has committed a crime.

Yep. He explicitly stated that there was no iPhone included. It is the bidder's fault for not reading.

Money is made every day because people are idiots. The only way to stop it is to educate them.

While this "cowboy" attitude about idiots on the internet is perhaps popular among those in the know . . . I'd imagine that somewhere in a Nigerian 417 cafe there are 12 people sitting around, scamming americans, saying the same thing: "Money is made every day because people are idiots. The only way to stop it is to educate them."

That doesn't make it OK. Plus, remember something. The law of fraud is not unique to the Internet, nor does it even acknowledge the sophistication with which one person can defraud another on the internet. Rather, what you're likely to get is the very simplistic view of a Court observing a fraud: "was there a meeting of the minds?" Did Mr. Marchuk take some action he knew, or should have known, would deceive, or mislead, somebody into paying $360 for a box? That answer is going to be yes.

Academic discussions aside, he's committed a crime.

[GAS]

BLAH BLAH BLAH.

Wow. Just wow. In no way is that fraud. He clearly stated that no iPhone was included. Please explain how else that can be interpreted? Can you actually read?

[ViViDboarder]

Same thing happend years ago when there were a lot of people selling an "Xbox box" for hundreds.

It's crazy that people mislead (yes, even saying it it's evident the person was still mislead, he wouldn't sanely pay that much for cardboard) and flat out lie and get away with it.

I just bought an Xbox360 from Ebay and the guy told me it was brand new, I got it and it was in a tattered box with a 2 year old manufacturing date on it. I even emailed him and asked if it had HDMI, he said Yes, I sent payment, and then it didn't.

This guy only has a leg up on me because I still got a 360 with harddrive and two controllers (No battery packs) for 200 bucks.

[tallyho]

**My post is an academic discussion. I'm not referring to any specific people, just to the semantics of eBay listing titles**
I shouldn't post on here again following the last time I tried to make the obvious point, but I still think the description "iPhone 3G White 16GB Box w/ charger-headphones-manuals!" is ambiguous (regardless of what an ebay seller may or may not write in the main text of the listing).
1) Why the 16GB? Is the capacity of a box measured in GB these days?
2) In Linguistic terms, especially if you read it aloud, it's very close in sound to "iPhone 3G White 16GB Boxed w/ charger-headphones-manuals!".
3) Again on Linguistic structure, if you want to claim that "iPhone White 16GB Box" is one Noun Phrase, it is quite an unusual one: you must claim that iPhone, White and 16GB are all working adjectivally with respect to "box". That's a lot of adjectives before you get to the noun.
4) A completely unambiguous listing title would have said "Box for White iPhone", or "Cardboard retail box for White iPhone". I can only think of one reason why an eBayer would choose the ambiguous wording over the unambigous one.
**End of academic discussion**

[platbr]

Wow. Just wow. In no way is that fraud. He clearly stated that no iPhone was included. Please explain how else that can be interpreted? Can you actually read?

You're an attorney, then? And I suppose all the cases you've read on fraud inform your "Wow. Just wow." judgment? If it was your 73 year old mother that had just paid $360 for this iphone box, you'd feel no different?

I'll explain "how else that can be interpreted." First, no honest person would sell just an iPhone box. What would be the point? The only point is fraud. And you may not agree with that, but 12 grand jurors will in indicting for fraud. Second, the title of Mr. Marchuk's auction is blatantly misleading: "iPhone 3G White 16GB Box w/ charger-headphones-manuals!," purposely designed to deceive and/or trick an unsuspecting buyer.

Do I agree that a perceptive buyer wouldn't fall for this trick? Yes, I do. But that isn't the test. I don't think anyone could honestly say that this buyer thought she/he was buying an iPhone box for $360. There was deception, and that's fraud (perhaps "larceny by trick"). The result is the same.

[IgnatiusTheKing]

People are morons. This just drives the point home a little more. Scamming people out of the money they made working the graveyard shift at McDonald's--just because they are borderline retarded--is just sad. Just because it says there's no phone included doesn't mean it wasn't a scam, it just means it weeded out the people who can read.

It was an interesting experiment, to say the least, but if I were the seller, I'd refund their money, minus the eBay listing fees, and tell them to pay closer attention next time.

[kinster]

... and showing off in this thread. He's going down LOL

[Nicolecat]

People are morons. This just drives the point home a little more. Scamming people out of the money they made working the graveyard shift at McDonald's--just because they are borderline retarded--is just sad. Just because it says there's no phone included doesn't mean it wasn't a scam, it just means it weeded out the people who can read.

It was an interesting experiment, to say the least, but if I were the seller, I'd refund their money, minus the eBay listing fees, and tell them to pay closer attention next time.

I'm not convinced it was solely for experimental purposes...
Did he have intent to deceive, since he was so convinced it wasn't deceiving?

I'm not sure...I'm also not sure if all the bids were valid. I am sure that if it were to ever make it anywhere, ip addresses could be checked against those that bid on the auction in mention vs. other similar auctions to verify validity.

I agree though...had I even the balls to post an auction like that I would issue a refund minus the posting fees, because having knowledge of it being deceiving even after the fact...still makes it deception.

[IgnatiusTheKing]

I'm not convinced it was solely for experimental purposes...
Did he have intent to deceive, since he was so convinced it wasn't deceiving?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure he meant to deceive people. "Experiment" was the wrong word to use; I just meant it was interesting to see how many people fell for such a blatant scam.

[FaustArp]

The things that go off on ebay now days doesn't compare to this. I am literally sitting here staring at an empty box of count chocula for $122.50 on Ebay right now. The title may grab the buyers attention, but reading the description is the buyers job as well.

[ajj06830]

From the Department of Justice website (http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/fraud/internet/):

What Is Internet Fraud?

The term "Internet fraud" refers generally to any type of fraud scheme that uses one or more components of the Internet - such as chat rooms, e-mail, message boards, or Web sites - to present fraudulent solicitations to prospective victims, to conduct fraudulent transactions, or to transmit the proceeds of fraud to financial institutions or to other connected with the scheme.

If you use the Internet with any frequency, you'll soon see that people and things online tend to move, as the saying goes, on "Internet time." For most people, that phrase simply means that things seem to happen more quickly on the Internet -- business decisions, information-searching, personal interactions, to name a few - and to happen before, during, or after ordinary "bricks-and-mortar" business hours.

Unfortunately, people who engage in fraud often operate in "Internet time" as well. They seek to take advantage of the Internet's unique capabilities -- for example, by sending e-mail messages worldwide in seconds, or posting Web site information that is readily accessible from anywhere in the world - to carry out various types of fraudulent schemes more quickly than was possible with many fraud schemes in the past.


Additionally...

Auction and Retail Schemes Online. According to the Federal Trade Commission and Internet Fraud Watch, fraudulent schemes appearing on online auction sites are the most frequently reported form of Internet fraud. These schemes, and similar schemes for online retail goods, typically purport to offer high-value items - ranging from Cartier® watches to computers to collectibles such as Beanie Babies® - that are likely to attract many consumers. These schemes induce their victims to send money for the promised items, but then deliver nothing or only an item far less valuable than what was promised (e.g., counterfeit or altered goods).

They note a few cases, although not the same as this, have a similar context.

Santa Ana, California On November 1, 1999, a man was sentenced in the Central District of California on mail and credit-card fraud charges to 14 months' imprisonment and $36,000 restitution, for his conduct of an Internet auction fraud that falsely offered digital cameras and laptop computers to consumers.

Philadelphia On March 2, 2000, three men were criminally charged in the Eastern District of Pennsylvania for their alleged roles in falsely offering the sale of Beanie Babies® on the Internet, and then failing to deliver the orders or sending stolen Beanie Babies® that generally were of substantially less value than the items ordered.

West Palm Beach, Florida On February 12, 1999, a man was sentenced in the Southern District of Florida on wire fraud charges to six months home detention and more than $22,000 restitution, for his conduct of a fraudulent scheme in which he falsely advertised on Internet auction and retail sale Web sites computer components that he purported to have for sale, but did not have or obtain most of the merchandise he advertised.

[platbr]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure he meant to deceive people. "Experiment" was the wrong word to use; I just meant it was interesting to see how many people fell for such a blatant scam.

Well, Mr. Marchuk has proved his point. People fall for this stuff.

However, if he actually did take this person's money he needs to return it and eat the eBay listing fees. I've talked to this person and provided them with the information I have on law enforcement in New Jersey, where Mr. Marchuk lives. PayPal will hopefully help him out, too.

This has gone too far. As an attorney (even though I no longer practice criminal law) I can't sit by and watch as somebody executes on the crime we're discussing in the abstract. I'm going to do whatever this unperceptive buyer needs to get their money back --- including and up to taking the civil case pro bono against Mr. Alex Marchuk.

I just got a second email from the buyer and he did, in fact, pay Mr. Marchuk immediately after the auction. Once I get his address from the buyer we'll contact local law enforcement. This is outrageous, and doesn't end with Mr. Marchuk just taking this guy's money.

Alex, if you want to make this go away refund the buyer's money immediately.

[FaustArp]

maybe the guy realized he actually bought a box?? He could be wealthy and just wanted a box for all we know? Did he say he knew when you contacted him? Seems rediculous I know but we do live in a crazy world..

[Phil A.]

Probably not massively relevant if it becomes a legal issue, but it is potentially against ebay's listing policies to sell an empty box as it can encourage intellectual property infringement:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/encouraging.html


An empty branded box, pouch, or tin that could be potentially used to hold and sell a similar or identical product. (exception: empty vintage boxes, pouches, or tins that can generally be considered collectible items and are sold for such purposes)