Stop telling those who are not happy to get a Dell!!!

[edesignuk]

To all the people telling others to hop ship to Dell if they’re not happy with yesterday’s keynote…

As you may have noticed, my posts in threads relating to yesterdays keynote have not been very positive. Very negative in fact. I know I am not alone.

So what did we get that I should be so happy about? I now have to pay to update iPhoto (previously free), there is a smaller, more expensive (price per gig) iPod, and that’s about it! Does this give me the right to complain? Of course it does! Why shouldn’t I? I was very disappointed, I hoped for some sort of update to the PowerMac, it didn’t have to be a lot, dual 2.2Ghz would have been enough. And what about the poor old iMac? Sticking larger and larger screens on them does not bring them up to standard with similarly priced AMD/Intel PC’s, they need an update!
This was the 20th Anniversary MacWorld, I don’t think it’s to much to expect to have something of significance announced, when it doesn’t happen, I will be disappointed and moan about it.

After having said that, you all (well some of you) come along and tell me and anyone who is of my opinion to “go and buy a Dell if you’re not happy”. Erm, yeah, great response, thanks for that. :rolleyes:
Because I am not happy doesn’t mean I will sell my existing Mac, give away my iPod, and become a dedicated Wintel fanboy.

I just don’t understand you people who are so dedicated to Apple that they can do no wrong in your eyes. Apple are a large corporate company, who like every other company have a goal. To make money! :eek: It’s true, they are not your best friend, they are not perfect, and there is no need to go on the defensive when someone complains that they haven’t delivered the goods.

[/rambling]

Discuss…:D

[Chappers]

Agreed.

[virividox]

you cant make everyone happy, i mean some macworlds were great ie last years where i fell in love with my powerbook. this year was a mix...i mean they gotta make a buck right so i guess we gotta fork up some money for quality apps, maybe we want apps individually and maybe if we do write to apple they might offer the apps individualy cant just get mad and not try to work it out

[Megaquad]

iPhoto is a product in which there was spent lot of money and work hours to develop it. It's best app out there and it shouldn't be free.

You would like 2.2 GHz PowerMac huh?
That would be pretty stupid you know, from marketing point too.
Dual 2 G5 is still pretty good and if new ones aren't released that means Apple cannot release them yet because they haven't cleared all existing ones and/or IBM can't give them faster processors yet.

iMac.. okay 1.25 GHz model is pretty slow and expensive but thats Motorola's fault not Apple's. Rumors are that G5 iMacs are coming out soon anyway.
If you don't like it, don't buy it, there's no point in complaining about something Apple cannot change.
Only time when people should really complain is when they get faulty products.


Apple makes best computing experience in the world, and that makes them not an ordinary company.
They change our lives, and they deserve to be payed for goods they create.

[latergator116]

I agree. I can;t stand it when you are eguing with someone and they say "if macs aren't good enough then get a dell!"

[junior]

I'm not sure how many negative responses you'll get now that you've prohibited the use of the 'fine, go get a Dell then!' response.;)
I think what makes Apple different from any other company in the world is the fact that Apple, and Jobs himself, is followed like a religion. No matter how awful the state of the company becomes, no matter how pathetic their product value (price vs performance. And weren't they cr*p at one point) might get, people continue to support them and buy theur products.
Fact is, while people were still supporting this company, they released a new OS, which at the time wasn't very good, but became brilliant starting from .2, and also released new apps bundled together, and those were the iApps. By the way, I know they had it for OS 9 at the same period but you get my drift.
So the loyal supporters had something to be cheerful about. While hardware was still behind the PC world, Apple, with the support of the loyal customers and the money they've made from their Mac sales, managed to make some very nice apps only available to Mac users, and FREE.
I think this is why Apple customers have the right to complain to/about Apple, and I think Apple should be taking note. After all, these loyal customers are the ones that kept them in the business in the first place. No other company could have survived.
So many extra charges are appearing now. iTunes is free to both Mac users AND windows users. I honestly believe that customers will start to feel that they aren't as close to Apple as they were in the past, because slowly but surely, special privileges for Mac loyalists are fading out, and more and more, things are starting to come at extra charges.
I think people ponted out that to stay up-to-date with the basic Apple offerings now, you have to spend something like $300 per year. Now that is quite a lot of money in my view.

[junior]

Originally posted by Megaquad
If you don't like it, don't buy it, there's no...


Megaquad, that is taboo on this thread. 'Go get a Dell' and 'if you don't like it, don't buy it' are very similar, wouldn't you agree?:rolleyes:

[ftaok]

Originally posted by Megaquad
iPhoto is a product in which there was spent lot of money and work hours to develop it. It's best app out there and it shouldn't be free.I agree that it shouldn't be free, but to bundle it with other apps that can't be used by many people is a little much. How about pricing the iApps separately as well? Maybe $20 each for iPhoto and iMovie. $35 each for iDVD and GarageBand. I would definately pick up iPhoto for $20 and I'd think about iMovie for another $20.


iMac.. okay 1.25 GHz model is pretty slow and expensive but thats Motorola's fault not Apple's. Rumors are that G5 iMacs are coming out soon anyway.
If you don't like it, don't buy it, there's no point in complaining about something Apple cannot change.
Only time when people should really complain is when they get faulty products.How is it Moto's fault that Apple won't put faster G4s into the iMac? 1.33ghz and 1.4ghz G4s do exist. They could easily be put into the iMac.

[edesignuk]

Originally posted by Megaquad
iPhoto is a product in which there was spent lot of money and work hours to develop it. It's best app out there and it shouldn't be free.
Yet up to now it always has been. Offering something for free, then starting to charge for it out of the blue is not a good idea. If Microsoft did it you'd be ripping them appart. (for example they are going to charge for FAT file system usage, everyone here had something to say about that)
You would like 2.2 GHz PowerMac huh?
That would be pretty stupid you know, from marketing point too.
Dual 2 G5 is still pretty good and if new ones aren't released that means Apple cannot release them yet because they haven't cleared all existing ones and/or IBM can't give them faster processors yet.
I don't "want" a 2.2GHz G5, I want more! What I said was 2.2GHz would have done, at least it would show some progress in the right direction.
iMac.. okay 1.25 GHz model is pretty slow and expensive but thats Motorola's fault not Apple's. Rumors are that G5 iMacs are coming out soon anyway.
And who chooses not just to put 1.6GHz G5 (or less if they are available, I don't know) in to the iMacs? Apple. Motorola suck, we all no it, so don't use them!
If you don't like it, don't buy it, there's no point in complaining about something Apple cannot change.
Only time when people should really complain is when they get faulty products.
Thanks, I won't buy it/them. Lucky for me I am not in the market for a new anything fro mApple right now, I am very happy with what I have. But if I had been waiting until MWSF for a new iMac/PowerMac I'd be even more unhappy.
Apple makes best computing experience in the world, and that makes them not an ordinary company.
They change our lives, and they deserve to be payed for goods they create.
Here we go getting all emotional...it's a computer!

edit: mistakes corrected.

[ThomasJefferson]

I am also tired of the Dell comment. There are a number of people posting here that will allow no criticism of Apple at all. On another thread, which was designed to discuss iPod and iBook problems, the trolls jumped in immediately to hijack the discussion. One argued that the squeeking in the palm rest should be ignored (obviously he doesn't have to think, compose, type while listening to it) another argued that the gap in the plastic was a feature!

Hmmm .. the gap in the plastic is a feature? Having owned Mac since 1984, I never heard that one before.

Perhaps that will replace, "go buy a Dell"?

[jxyama]

Originally posted by ftaok
I would definately pick up iPhoto for $20 and I'd think about iMovie for another $20.

i realize you said "think about," but if you are going to pay $40 for iPhoto/iMovie, what's $10 more to get iDVD and GarageBand?

if those apps were individually priced at $20 per (except iTunes), I'm sure a lot of us would have said "How can 4 apps be $20 each but $50 together?! I'm pissed that I now have to pay $20 for iPhoto when it was free!!" :D

i agree that the keynote yesterday was a bit of a letdown. xserve and raid cater to a smaller subset and an upgraded lowest iPod and mini iPod introduction in no way compares to last year's 12/17" PB announcement... my only hope is that apple has done away with limiting big announcements to expos and that we'll see more randomly timed updates from here on.

by the way, yes, offering something for free initially and later charging for them is not very consumer friendly, but it has to be done at some point. if the product is good enough, then people will get them even if they are charged for them. apple must decide sometime that they are confident enough in their iApps that they are worth charging for - that the revenue from sales will outweigh the unhappy former iApp users...

i contend that people complain about M$ because they often (but not always, and i'm sure apple does this to some degree) offer inferior products for free or at a steep discount simply to drive competitors away. plus M$ sucks anyway. :D

[Mr. Anderson]

As for the Keynote - what's the big deal. Steve mentioned that this was going to be a fantastic year. Not a fantastic key note, but year.

Its starting out small, maybe it will end with a bang :D

I think ranting, like all things, is good in moderation. We all know there have been more exciting key notes, but its not the last one. And that Apple has changed their policy of releasing all the hardware at the same time as a key note. So as for the new iMacs and the RevB G5s - well, we get to wait.

D

[mj_1903]

May I ask, why are you upset at what Apple released?

Are you a shareholder in Apple Computer Inc? Are you one of the CEO's? Are you the CFO looking at your bottom line for this year? Are you an Apple employee?

I don't really think its sensible being upset because Apple released only a smaller iPod and iPhoto is no longer 'free' as the wind.

The iPod is Apple's product, not yours. They will do with it what they please (this coming from a person who sells software for iPod's) and being upset about them is quite silly.

As for iPhoto, take it up with Steve or anyone at Apple if you want. I don't care that its part of a software set now, its Apple's prerogative to do what they want with their software. I am going to be happy to pony up the money if I need that software, as I would for anything else. I don't expect thousands and thousands of dollars of software development time to be given to me free all the time. It's an incentive to buy a Mac, not a given of being a Mac owner.

This has affected my life, a little. I would love to get a G5 and am waiting for the next Rev. My PowerBook simply is not handling the software development that I am doing these days and an upgrade would make me a lot more productive, but I will wait for Apple to give me something near what I want and won't get upset because its not here right now.

Your life was not changed by these announcements, so don't take it too seriously. As for the Dell comments, well, it is your choice of platform. If you want to make a difference, go work at 1 Infinite Loop and make a difference, or keep buying those Macs and iLife and let Apple do what they think is right.

[TranceClubMusic]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by junior
I think what makes Apple different from any other company in the world is the fact that Apple, and Jobs himself, is followed like a religion.

Excellent Comment! :cool:

[jxyama]

Originally posted by mj_1903
May I ask, why are you upset at what Apple released?

Are you a shareholder in Apple Computer Inc? Are you one of the CEO's? Are you the CFO looking at your bottom line for this year? Are you an Apple employee?

I don't really think its sensible being upset because Apple released only a smaller iPod and iPhoto is no longer 'free' as the wind.

The iPod is Apple's product, not yours. They will do with it what they please (this coming from a person who sells software for iPod's) and being upset about them is quite silly.

this is the same point raised elsewhere... not having a stake in the company does not mean you can't mildly complain or discuss or disagree about their product policies.

yes, apple can do whatever it pleases. as mac fans, we can talk and think of them as we please too. (as long as it's in moderation...)

look, many of us aren't a shareholder or a paid staff in professional sport teams. many of us still root for them, discuss about them and complain about their mistakes... why? because we are a fan.

as mr. anderson said, i think ranting in moderation does no harm.

[edesignuk]

@mj_1903

I think you've missed the point. No, what they do doesn't effect me. And I'm hardly "upset". But I would like to see them out in front in the computing world, there for I want to see newer, faster, improved hardware frequently.

[mj_1903]

Originally posted by TranceClubMusic
Originally posted by junior
I think what makes Apple different from any other company in the world is the fact that Apple, and Jobs himself, is followed like a religion.

Excellent Comment! :cool: [/B]

Which IMHO is not a good idea. Fine, I like Apple and my next computer(s) will be Apple computers (and I'm a switcher) but I think the semi-religious aspects to the following is quite dangerous for further market growth in that it can quite easily give the wrong impression to PC users.

[Mr. Anderson]

Play nice folks - discussion, not baiting.

D

[mj_1903]

Originally posted by jxyama
look, many of us aren't a shareholder or a paid staff in professional sport teams. many of us still root for them, discuss about them and complain about their mistakes... why? because we are a fan.

as mr. anderson said, i think ranting in moderation does no harm.

That is sport. :)

I do support my country heavily in the supporting arena and barrack for them whenever I can (not very often I might add) but I will not tell them how to run their test team for cricket, or the rugby side or Ian Thorpe how to swim better. They are professionals and they want to win, much the same as Apple wants to win and we can see that happening.

I think you've missed the point. No, what they do doesn't effect me. And I'm hardly "upset". But I would like to see them out in front in the computing world, there for I want to see newer, faster, improved hardware frequently.

Oh, so do I, don't worry at all. You did state though that you were very disappointed and then decided to vocalize it with many negative posts.

I think that type of feedback is misguided when we actually look at Apple.

Apple consists of around 10,000 employees. Around 600 work on iLife, .Mac and Mac OS X (Darwin, Cocoa, Carbon, Quicktime, etc). Around 700 work on the hardware which includes everything from the XServe to the iMac to the iPod and the pro mouse and keyboard. With these employees alone, Apple does not have the resources to churn out updates at a rapid rate that you are demanding. If they could, they would, but simply look at the mess that Panther was on release and you will see that pushing deadlines does not work at Apple.

Remember also that many of these employees have not have a pay rise since 1998 and it puts it in further perspective. Take into account that many are overworked by their bosses to achieve Panther or the XServe update and you will see that quality is slipping and deadlines are passing.

I think its unfair to be criticizing Apple for moving as fast as they humanly can. They definitely need to gain market share so they can raise the wages being paid, so they can hire more engineers for the Mac OS X team which is struggling and hire more hardware guys. They are not super human. They will do what they can when they can. They cannot concurrently design an iBook, iMac, PowerMac, PowerBook, and XServe update for a new release every 2 months. Its physically impossible.

Now this is not an attack on you, but it is my feelings coming out. I have a lot of friends at Apple who I see suffering under these insane deadlines. I can see their work suffering (Panther, iMovie 3, PowerBook) and I don't want them to have to be pushed anymore. Apple are winning but they can't win at the rate that you or I want them to win.

Now, what do I really want? I would love Apple to get its 4.5 billion and hire some more engineers. Simply take 1 billion out and that hires 1000 new software developers for 5 years. Would it be worth it? I have no idea, but I would love to see Apple do it. Am I saying they should? No.

No offence was meant in any of the above, I'm slightly tired (1am) and I have been debugging some crappy code for the last 7hrs that I really shouldn't be debugging but I owe it to someone.

[ftaok]

Originally posted by jxyama
i realize you said "think about," but if you are going to pay $40 for iPhoto/iMovie, what's $10 more to get iDVD and GarageBand?

if those apps were individually priced at $20 per (except iTunes), I'm sure a lot of us would have said "How can 4 apps be $20 each but $50 together?! I'm pissed that I now have to pay $20 for iPhoto when it was free!!" :D

I deliberately set the prices that way to get my point accross. I think most people understand the concept that if you buy a bundle, you get a discount. I call it the Happy Meal concept. In the Happy Meal concept, if all I want is the Big Mac, I can buy the Big Mac for $2.30 rather than paying $4.50 for the fries and coke.

In the above case, if iPhoto and iMovie were $20 a piece, I'd probably spend the extra $10 to get iDVD and GB, just in case I acquired a G4.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Consumers have a right to gripe and they do it with the wallet and rumor sites. like its been said Apple could wrap a 68030 cpu in a new machine and there would be people yelling at the top of their lungs how great Apple is. These folk are simply blind, stupid or Apple workers. Anyways in feb 2001 you could buy a Imac with 500 mhz g3 or powermac with 500 mhz g4, today its a joke top imac 1.25 g4 top powermac 4 ghz worth of G5 cpu. Apple cant seem to fix this just as they are struggling to fix the ever smaller market share. would i buy a Dell? i dont thinks so but iam sure going to point out mistakes by Apple when they are screwing up. Apple has been screwing up.

[junior]

Originally posted by mj_1903
Which IMHO is not a good idea. Fine, I like Apple and my next computer(s) will be Apple computers (and I'm a switcher) but I think the semi-religious aspects to the following is quite dangerous for further market growth in that it can quite easily give the wrong impression to PC users.


No, the point was that the only thing that kept Apple alive till now was religous following. The reason why they can charge a premium for their hardware and still get away with charging extra for software is the religous following.
Due to these loyal 3% of the market, the iLife package will sell well. Even those complaining, including me (probably), will end up buying everything Apple because of this reason.
However, I think Apple can only push it so far before people start thinking that God has gone insane and that perhaps changing their allegience to the Devil in the Wintel world might be better off.
I will continue to support Apple, but I, like everyone else, definitely have the right to complain whenever we please.

[jayscheuerle]

Get a Compaq! ;)

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by Dont Hurt Me
These folk are simply blind, stupid or Apple workers.

Like the audience in the "1984" commercial? :cool:

[bousozoku]

Sure, the ultimate answer is not Dell and people shouldn't throw it at you for everything. It's frightening that they have such mindshare.

As far as iPhoto goes, many people were complaining about a free iPhoto. Now that they shaped it into a speedier application, there are plenty more complaining about it being a paid application. Yes, it doesn't make a lot of sense that they've switched but it is consistent. Maybe they should have changed the name to Starving Photographer or something. :D

I'm quite pleased by the announcements--the G5 Xserve being the main and most necessary announcement. Getting Apple into more corporations is so important. The iPod minis will induce more people to buy the current iPod line because of the small price difference and Apple will reduce the price of the mini line later. The size and colours would suggest the fashion-concious will be the few to buy them at the current, inflated price.

[jxyama]

i think a lot of people throw that "if you don't like apple, fine, go get a dell" line because there were some trolls who come here and post one message saying "oh, i really want a MAC but i played with G3 Ibook that costs $1000 but unless it does my photoshop filter in less time than my HT P4 desktop i have, it's overpriced and i'm gonna go get a dell instead." type of threads...

yes, some do throw that line about dell being pretty much a Mac zealot. and that is annoying...

[beefcake]

To me, the zealots are not true Mac "fans." It's very easy to claim to support a company when you blind yourself to all their faults. I thought MacWorld was a huge letdown. I'm not in the market for a new iPod, and I have no desire to pick up new hardware or software, but one day I will and I want it to be as cutting edge as possible.

Sometimes Apple drives me crazy, like when I walk into the store to buy screen wipes because my Powerbooks keys are rubbing my screen, then walk out of the store with $25 less in my wallet and a stupid bungee cord bag "designed in California." Sorry, but I just can't help but feel like $5 went to the bag.

As much as some of us gripe here, nearly all of us did choose to buy a Mac over the myriad of Windows machines. Maybe if posters like eDesign modified every Apple gripe post with a parallel Windows gripe section, there would be less flak, but that wouldn't be very practical.

[Westside guy]

When the substance of someones initial complaints and rebuttal followups seems to boil down to "It won't run all my Windows apps out of the box, and I must have every game on the planet" then I think it's a completely justifiable comment. :) And we do see that occasionally. You know, "why is the close button in the wrong corner, it screws me up" sorts of posts where people seem to basically not be happy because OS X isn't Windows XP (Lord knows why they apparently want it to be, but that's another topic).

However I concur that when "just go buy a Dell" is used, as it often is, as a euphemism for "JUST SHUT UP" it is rather lame.

[agreenster]

LOL this happens after EVERY MacWorld keynote.

Yeah, I was dissapointed with MWSF as well, but everyone knows updated PowerMacs and Powerbooks are coming soon, so keep your pants on.

Apple still doesn't suck.

[hulugu]

Gripe, gripe, gripe.

But, I disagree—

Zealot!

I'm kidding, but Apple is not a religious experience, however it is okay to like the company and to be invested in it. Tts actually very human to do so, and especially human considering we have tied our computing fates to them. If Apple fails we'll have to make the choice between Linux or Windows, neither of which we feel any particular grace for. So the stakes are higher than they would be for our hapless Dell user who could simply buy a Toshiba and whose experience wouldn't change very much.
However, don't tell anyone to get a Dell, that's just simply bad advice, if they're not happy with Apple. Tell them to be a consumer, buy it if they want it, watch it if they're not ready, ignore it if they don't want it.
Furthermore, the iPod-mini is a neat little device, I wish it were cheaper, but considering it holds 8x as much as a 150.00 Rio flash player, I don't think it's totally out of bounds. But, I wouldn't buy one now because I think the price will drop once enough mini-drives have been made, just as it did with the first iPod.
Also, what about Xgrid, the G5 Xserve, and Garage Band?
Yeah, it sucks that iPhoto will start to cost and I'm not sure if I will buy iLife because I don't have a DVD-R, so iDVD is useless, I don't play music, so while I think Garage Band is cool, also useless for me, and iMovie has never been for me because I don't have a DV camera. But, iTunes and iPhoto are my favorite programs, so maybe I'll just wait to get iLife when I get either a new Mac or a DV camera.
However, I'm not going to be pissed about it.
Also, Apple has started to move away from product announcements during Macworld and MacExpo, so I would expect to see some things throughout the year.
Also, I can't remember who posted it, but a .2Ghz jump wouldn't be enough, I think, to release a new G5. Apple might wait until it gets closer to 3.0 which they will soon anyway.
As for the iMac, PB, etc. the G5 is coming into those machines, but there are some serious engineering hurdles, the fact that they crammed it into the 1U of the Xserve, it a very good sign they're coming.
So, patience.
Call me a Zealot, I'll call you a Roman.

[TimDaddy]

I was once on the phone with Toyota's customer support center. I was complaining about the way a dealership had treated me. The customer support rep wasn't much better. I told him that I was very disappointed, and that an Accord was just as good as a Camry. There was no great compelling reason for me to stick with Toyota. His response: "Fine, buddy. Go getcha a Honda. I'll still have my job tomorrow!" You know, if not for my generous employee discount on Toyotas (which I did't tell him about :) ), I would have gone and gotten a Honda based on that one statement from a Toyota rep.
I hope nobody here that tells people to get a Dell actually work for Apple.

[iJon]

Originally posted by edesignuk
To make money!
we know that, and you are mad about them charging for iphoto now, for 49 dollars for 5 awesome programs. now you need to pick which side you want, your mad and you want them to make money, pick one.

iJon

[edesignuk]

Originally posted by iJon
we know that, and you are mad about them charging for iphoto now, for 49 dollars for 5 awesome programs. now you need to pick which side you want, your mad and you want them to make money, pick one.

iJon
Yes, they do need to make money. But, starting to charge for something that was previously free is not a good way to go about doing it IMO. I don't have to pick one :rolleyes:

Release some decent hardware, make it compete with offerings in the Wintel world and you (should) sell more. My god, how many people are sitting there with their credit cards right now ready to by a new Apple LCD, PowerMac G5 rev2. PowerBook G5, iMac G5, all that money they are not making because they take for ****ing ever to release anything. It drives me mad! :eek:

Before when we were stuck with Moto there was a reason for the s-l-o-w develpoments. Now there is no excuse (appart from the PB G5, which of course is understandable) why they cannot compete again, they have the G5, use it. Get updated LCD's out (how old are these things now???).

[Grimace]

Apple has moved away from releasing a ton of new products at MacWorld - the new products will come in the next month or so.

Remember LAST YEAR??? Every friggin Tuesday there was something new.

Stop crying, get used to the new format.

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by hulugu
If Apple fails we'll have to make the choice between Linux or Windows, neither of which we feel any particular grace for.

Sure, but we'd make our choice and end up being reluctantly content and equally productive within a short time, except for the hours wasted perusing sites dedicated to the greatness of what was Mac, where we'd reminisce to the point of OSX becoming legendary and painted with a history far more forgiving than it actually deserves. (See Commodore 64).

Seeing that the only program I want to run that my machine can't is Panther, I don't see myself switching to Wintel except out of sour grapes- and that's like shooting myself in the foot. I prefer Jaguar over XP. Heck, I'll probably prefer it to Longdong, whenever that knob of an OS ever rears its ugly head. Still, it seems painfully obvious that Mac users hold Apple in a much higher regard than Apple holds its users. With single-digit marketshare, you'd think Apple would handle its user base with a bit more respect and care, but perhaps success with the ITMS and articles in TIME have gone to their collective (right, Steve) head.

End of the day, it's just a box that I spend too many hours in front of separating me from my life. If I'm going to be stuck in front of one for so long, I'm glad Apple's around, but I'd have no problem making do if I had to. - j

[hulugu]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
...Longdong, whenever that knob of an OS ever rears its ugly head...

God that's funny.

[Kwyjibo]

I started thinking about speed bumps in relation to expos, and i've realized a few things.

In the past year or saw, apple has not simply speed bumped computers at big expos. They release new machines, new products, talk about the ipod but they don't simply say this line is going up to 1.5 ghz ... they do it in the weeks following on the infamous tuesday updates ... look at the last year , the only computer to be released at big expos were the 12" and 17" powerbooks and the g5's the rest were released over the year without an event ... even the iBook going to G4 ... new 15" powerboook, redesigned 12" powerbook ... all not at the huge expos ... maybe your problem is your putting way to much stock in the expos which apple explicitley said they want to move away from

[edesignuk]

Originally posted by Kwyjibo
... maybe your problem is your putting way to much stock in the expos which apple explicitley said they want to move away from
Maybe, I've had enough of this whole thing now, I'm probably driving you all mad with my views and god knows you're driving me mad (not you Kwyjibo) :) :p

Back to the beginning...if I or anyone say they are not happy with what Apple are offering...please, do me a favor, don't respond with "Get a Dell" :)

[jxyama]

Originally posted by edesignuk
Yes, they do need to make money. But, starting to charge for something that was previously free is not a good way to go about doing it IMO. I don't have to pick one :rolleyes:

Release some decent hardware, make it compete with offerings in the Wintel world and you (should) sell more. My god, how many people are sitting there with their credit cards right now ready to by a new Apple LCD, PowerMac G5 rev2. PowerBook G5, iMac G5, all that money they are not making because they take for ****ing ever to release anything. It drives me mad! :eek:

Before when we were stuck with Moto there was a reason for the s-l-o-w develpoments. Now there is no excuse (appart from the PB G5, which of course is understandable) why they cannot compete again, they have the G5, use it. Get updated LCD's out (how old are these things now???).

turning profit takes more than just selling the best you got...

G5 iMac will sell better than G4 iMac if similarly spec'ed and priced, yes, no kidding. but how will G5 iMac affect the sale of G5 PM? G4 eMac?

there's an "excuse." it's called product differentiation and catering to the market. apple has business people figuring this stuff out and compared to a few years ago, they seem to be doing ok.

if you are mad about iLife being not-free, then make your statement and not buy it. enough people follow your strategy and it will hurt apple's bottom line and they will change. but asking for previously free software to be again made free (for no other reason than just saying "because it was free before") so you can have it but not pay for them, you have absolutely no ground to affect apple. all you are asking for is free stuff. why should apple care because you are neither a potential paying customer nor a disgruntled former user that may get away.

i realize it's a matter of perspective. i mean no offense, because for every one person like me - who uses and appreciates iphoto so much that i'd pay $50 for iphoto alone - there is someone like you who'd like things the way they were. believe me, i'd rather get iphoto free than for $50, no kidding. but i don't think apple dropped the ball too much. $50 is *probably* very reasonable for most people.

EDIT: since you asked... lastly, if you don't want a mac and iLife, get a dell with adobe photo album!! :D

[edesignuk]

Originally posted by jxyama
turning profit takes more than just selling the best you got...
Of course, but having the best you've got is the first step.
G5 iMac will sell better than G4 iMac if similarly spec'ed and priced, yes, no kidding. but how will G5 iMac affect the sale of G5 PM? G4 eMac?

there's an "excuse." it's called product differentiation and catering to the market.
For Apple keeping "product differentiation" means lagging further and further behind. Holding one under powered, over priced line back, to keep another equaly under powered, over priced line look better is insane.
but asking for previously free software to be again made free (for no other reason than just saying "because it was free before") so you can have it but not pay for them, you have absolutely no ground to affect apple. all you are asking for is free stuff. why should apple care because you are neither a potential paying customer nor a disgruntled former user that may get away.
I don't expect Apple to change their mind, and I'm not asking them to, it's pointless. They should never have given away something for free then turned around and started charging for it in the first place.

A constant argument people use when comparing a PC to a Mac is the "great free software you get with os x"...this isn't going to be much of an argument anymore :rolleyes:

I didn't realize just how many people had such a blind faith for Apple, amazing...:eek: SJ should be ecstatic!

[jxyama]

Originally posted by edesignuk
A constant argument people use when comparing a PC to a Mac is the "great free software you get with os x"...this isn't going to be much of an argument anymore :rolleyes:

this part, i absolutely agree. every new mac user should have os x and iLife - which they do because every new Mac will ship with iLife.

the question i'm waiting to find an answer for is whether the future OS X upgrades will include updated iLife or not. if iLife and OS X upgrades are separated, i wouldn't exactly get mad - since i'll get both of them anyway - but i'd be a little disappointed because, as you said, it would make one of the great selling points of a Mac - that you get all the great iLife apps free - obsolete.

[avus]

Originally posted by edesignuk

I didn't realize just how many people had such a blind faith for Apple, amazing...:eek: SJ should be ecstatic!

The latest and greatest hardwares will get old in three months. I get mad that when geeks only seek instant gratification like junkies seek their highs.

I was moved by how enthusiastic Steve Jobs was when he was describing Garageband. You can disagree all you want, but he genuinely believes that it is the software that creates something memorable, that stands the test of time.

The blind faith you are describing is just as annoying and damaging as the short-sighted and inflated expectation of its user base.

[bousozoku]

Originally posted by jxyama
this part, i absolutely agree. every new mac user should have os x and iLife - which they do because every new Mac will ship with iLife.

the question i'm waiting to find an answer for is whether the future OS X upgrades will include updated iLife or not. if iLife and OS X upgrades are separated, i wouldn't exactly get mad - since i'll get both of them anyway - but i'd be a little disappointed because, as you said, it would make one of the great selling points of a Mac - that you get all the great iLife apps free - obsolete.

Well, that's like the included 3rd party software, as well. Is there a perpertual upgrade licence to any of that? Of course not. Some of the publishers don't even give discounts for having their software installed on the machine.

Everyone wants free but it just doesn't work that way.

[manitoubalck]

Originally posted by edesignuk
Apple are a large corporate company, who like every other company have a goal. To make money! :eek: It’s true, they are not your best friend, they are not perfect, and there is no need to go on the defensive when someone complains that they haven’t delivered the goods.

[/rambling]


This is usually said in respones to something microsoft does, however it's glad to see some mac users get the 'real world' picture of the company.

I think the G5Xserve is a big release, along with the 90nm cores. However the consumer and education ranges are lagging back in 1999, and it's time they did sdomething about it, and until they do I'm staying on the AMD side of the three way fence.

[hamfist]

what a winer....

[edesignuk]

Originally posted by avus
The latest and greatest hardwares will get old in three months.
No kidding, well I never knew that :rolleyes: So the answer is, of course, to hardly ever update anything then right? That way nothing will ever get old. I don't think it is at all unreasonable to expect Apple to start delivering on the hardware side after so long struggling along with Moto.
They now have the technology (thanks IBM ;)), they need to get their butts in gear! There's a lot of cathing up to do.

I hope that you are all right and that they will announce updates in the next few weeks, that would be great. I'd be pleased to hear it, and I'd be pleased for the people waiting on new machines before they buy. Finally I might be able to argue the case for Mac over PC to my friends, right now unless you're gonna spend big bucks (dual g5) there's no contest.

[edesignuk]

Originally posted by hamfist
what a winer....
what a spectacular contribution to the debate...http://upload.edesignuk.net/uploaded_data/smilies/tard.gif http://upload.edesignuk.net/uploaded_data/smilies/wtf.gif

[jxyama]

Originally posted by bousozoku
Well, that's like the included 3rd party software, as well. Is there a perpertual upgrade licence to any of that? Of course not. Some of the publishers don't even give discounts for having their software installed on the machine.

Everyone wants free but it just doesn't work that way.

no, i didn't care as much about the "free" part, as other may. i'll glad pay for iLife this time and will probably continue to do so. i like them very much and consider them well worth the price.

i'm more interested in apple maintaining the attitude that iLife apps are considered an essential part of the Mac OS X experience, and not just another "third party software." i felt such was the statement they were making when panther included all iApps (iDVD being an exception because it was supplied with Superdrive, not necessarily OS X.) so i'm hoping they will keep it up.

i imagine they will bundle iLife with future OS X updates by tacking on a bit of money. maybe new OS X updates will be $150 instead but include the latest iLife...

[jayb2000]

Sorry, I just don't like dell.

[cwedl]

Let me re-write how the keynote should have gone: Please tell me if you think otherwise.

1) New iLife 4.0 - iPhoto - Free, iTunes - Free. - download in an hour or so.

2)Sorrys guys because we have added more functions to iMovie, iDVD We have sell it to you as a CD, $39, but you also get GarageBand as well which is also to big to download.

3)iPod mini - 4GB all different colours - $199.

4) G5 powermac upgrade - 1.8ghz, 2.0ghz dual , 2.2ghz dual - this will give them another change to upgrade before the summers - 3.0ghz.

[amin]

I agree with jayb, "Get an HP" is much better! I think edesignuk should get an HP since he's not happy with Apple :p .

[edesignuk]

Originally posted by amin
I agree with jayb, "Get an HP" is much better! I think edesignuk should get an HP since he's not happy with Apple :p .
Actually, HP aren't so bad, they make some very nice workstations, the XW6000 is FAST!

...but I'd rather spend that kind of money on a dual 2.6-3GHz G5...if one existed :rolleyes:

http://upload.edesignuk.net/uploaded_data/smilies/smilie_shakeheadfrown.gif

[iMook]

We can all dream, cwedl.

Seriously, the Keynote SHOULD have announced $50 iPod minis.

But really, about the "get a Dell." comment. Even if it is meant as a "just shut up.", I can see where some of those people are coming from.

Personally, I like Apple, but I think it's overpriced. But, there are those who fanatically defend "their" company as if it was the physical expression of Holy Writ. (You can flame me.) Those who try to destroy every single comment that REMOTELY sheds less-than-holy light on Apple are, ironically, often the same ones who name-call anyone who says anything in favor of Wintel companies as "fanboys". Hmmm. To those of you (you know who you are) go look up the definition of "hypocrisy," then stand in front of a mirror and reflect (no pun intended).

This was not intended for the vast majority of you. Just those whose hypocrisy is unbearably annoying.

Cheers.

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by edesignuk
And I'm hardly "upset".

really? that's anything but obvious

the keynote wasn't all that exciting. i want a free iphoto update. i think the minis are overpriced (they're too close tot he 15gb, not necessarily too much over the rios, etc)

i expect new powermacs, etc to come out in coming months. why? that's how it went last year.... not to mention that the rumors pointed towards them not being announced yet.

as minimally excited as i am about the announcements, i'd rather wait and see what's next than whine a ton about it... and to even bother to mention dumbasses who respond with "if you don't like it buy a dell" is just egging them on. idiots are idiots. best to let them be their own destruction

[applebum]

Originally posted by edesignuk
Release some decent hardware, make it compete with offerings in the Wintel world and you (should) sell more. My god, how many people are sitting there with their credit cards right now ready to by a new Apple LCD, PowerMac G5 rev2. PowerBook G5, iMac G5, all that money they are not making because they take for ****ing ever to release anything. It drives me mad! :eek:



Decent hardware = G5
Compete with Wintel world = G5
If Apple does a speed bump every 2-6 months, how many people will be sitting there with their credit card going "I will wait another 4 months and see how much better they are". One of the nice things about Macs has been that they aren't obsolete after a year. I have my 400 Imac and my 450 Sawtooth. They have run everything excellently so far. The reason that Windoze has the market share that it does (partly) is because you have to get a new box every year to keep up. That's ok though since you can get a new box for $300. Market share is terribly overrated. Most Mac users also have a Windoze box because they are cheap. Marketshare will never favor the Mac.
Do not despair though. If you peruse this site you will find that Apple's marketshare in the media is about 25%, education marketshare is going back up, laptop marketshare is very competitive. Apple is gaining ground.

I want to see speedbumps just enough to keep up with the competition, but not so fast that my machine becomes obsolete within a year. I want to be addicted to Apple, just not an Apple junkie. I am not going to get itchy if I don't get my "speed" hit every 2 months or so. I can wait and have a slow burn for the next great thing.

[junior]

Originally posted by applebum


I want to see speedbumps just enough to keep up with the competition, but not so fast that my machine becomes obsolete within a year. I want to be addicted to Apple, just not an Apple junkie. I am not going to get itchy if I don't get my "speed" hit every 2 months or so. I can wait and have a slow burn for the next great thing.

That's just the thing. They're not doing 'just enough' to keep up with the competition. That's why edesignuk suggested that there should/ could have been even the most minor of updates to satisfy the customers and to show that Apple is finally catching up.

[deeridiot]

This has probably been mentioned by someone already. The main reason why there were no announcements of faster Powermacs or a G5 iMac is Apple's break from the bad habit of announcing these upgrades at Macworld.

There could very well be updates coming up very soon. Low key product announcments or individual keynotes will probably accompany them as they are ready.

Apple is tired of all the MacWorld hype impacting computer sales. If Apple releases newer models as they are ready, there won't be a decline in sales before Macworld.

I wouldn't worry about a 2.2GHz Powermac, they're coming.

[cwedl]

Originally posted by iMook


Seriously, the Keynote SHOULD have announced $50 iPod minis.

.


Would it be even possible to make an ipod for that price? Doubt it!

[5300cs]

Originally posted by edesignuk
...they are not your best friend…

Hahahaha, that's the best comment I've heard in a while :D

Watching the Apple faithful at the keynote though, you might've thought otherwise. Steve Jobs feeds off the engery too, you can tell.

I thought it was funny when the m$ crew came up there to peddle m$ office 2004. The guy did some demo on taking notes or something, and 10 steps later he was like "See? Simple."
The temp in there dropped a few degrees when m$ showed up, and I swear the audience was being real conservative with the applause. :D

And my favorite line was the m$ spokeswoman who said something like "We couldn't have gotten to where we are now without Apple." Yeah, no kidding :rolleyes:

[edesignuk]

Originally posted by iMook
Seriously, the Keynote SHOULD have announced $50 iPod minis.

http://upload.edesignuk.net/uploaded_data/smilies/coblers.png You cannot be serious. That's just ludicrous, it would never happen.

[K12MacTech]

Too often the reality is that because there are a handful of things that run on Windows but not MacOSX, it becomes the rallying cry for switching to Windows. It is a battle I face daily in my school district. That student information package doesn't work on MacOSX? We better buy Compaqs for the teachers. The phonological awareness program for the kids runs better on PCs and the vendor hasn't updated the mac version? Better get PCs for that too. Quicktime and iTunes don't play nice with proxy authentication? Better get PCs for that as well. Unfortunately, people are switching away from Macs in education, and for many administrators there are not enough compelling reasons to keep the macs.

Is that Apple's fault? No, the district could make wiser purchasing decisions. There are other options for all of the above stated problems. But those decisions are made without regard to the 6000+ mac using students in this district. Apple needs to keep the excitement going, and even though schools will not be purchasing top of the line systems, the perception needs to be there that if you wanted to, you can purchase a mac that will beat a comparable PC. I already believe that to be true for education needs, but the press Apple receives is what the administrators listen to.

[bousozoku]

Originally posted by 5300cs

...

And my favorite line was the m$ spokeswoman who said something like "We couldn't have gotten to where we are now without Apple." Yeah, no kidding :rolleyes:

They were better for the world when their only product was a BASIC interpreter. You have to wonder how much they made from the Apple II CP/M card and their BASIC interpreter.

[plinkoman]

has it not occured to any of you people that apple will release other stuff in the next few weeks? they did it last year. and is it that big of a deal if you had to wait untill february for something? they've done that many times, don't expect them to release all there new stuff all at once. Apple has the right to release products as they see fit, you do not have a say in that, therefore, you do not have a right to complain like little children about it, therefore if you are not happy with it, you can go buy a dell, and there is no reason why i cant tell you that, you don't own apple, you cant tell them what to do and whine about it when they don't, weather or not your a fan of their products.

[bousozoku]

Originally posted by plinkoman

...

Apple has the right to release products as they see fit, you do not have a say in that, therefore, you do not have a right to complain like little children about it, therefore if you are not happy with it, you can go buy a dell, and there is no reason why i cant tell you that,
...

If they don't have the right to complain, then you don't have the right to tell them about it. They may not be able to control what products Apple release but many people do own a piece of Apple in their stock.

Before you get some idea that this is the U.S.A., forget it. These are the MacRumors.com forums. ;)

[plinkoman]

Originally posted by bousozoku
If they don't have the right to complain, then you don't have the right to tell them about it. They may not be able to control what products Apple release but many people do own a piece of Apple in their stock.

then they can dump their stock and go buy a dell, just because they have some stock, still doesn't give them a say, so untill they have enough stock to have a say, then they can't tell apple what to go do with itself. you can't expect a company to do whatever you want it to just because you own 0.000001% of it, thats not the way things work, and complaining about it will get people nowhere

[5300cs]

If they don't like it, you can always tell them to go to HELL (http://www.microsoft.com) :o

[hulugu]

...which I know is very dangerous.

First, while you can pontificate endlessly, Apple doesn't have to listen to you unless you own stock and then you should own a lot.
Second, the original poster was describing the love-it-or-leave-it attitude that many people use when they say then 'go to Dell' and I have to say, that is awful, terrible, almost criminal advice. If someone were say furious about the last election (and please no political wrangling) would you say then go move to North Korea, no of course not.
So, what have we learned here, absolutely nothing.

[oldschool]

Originally posted by edesignuk
After having said that, you all (well some of you) come along and tell me and anyone who is of my opinion to “go and buy a Dell if you’re not happy”. Erm, yeah, great response, thanks for that. :rolleyes:
Because I am not happy doesn’t mean I will sell my existing Mac, give away my iPod, and become a dedicated Wintel fanboy.

I just don’t understand you people who are so dedicated to Apple that they can do no wrong in your eyes. Apple are a large corporate company, who like every other company have a goal. To make money! :eek: It’s true, they are not your best friend, they are not perfect, and there is no need to go on the defensive when someone complains that they haven’t delivered the goods.

[/rambling]

Discuss…:D


If you're not happy, get a Gateway.

[mmmdreg]

A lot of us around here like bitching about trivial matters now don't we. This is not a proving ground to demonstrate your verbal capabilities. Peace. Be friends.

I mean obviously we all have our own opinions that we like to get across but sometimes there is a limit that is often crossed on these boards. Evidently, when sites grow (in the case of forums), conflict will increase as each person wants to speak his/her mind, and though I may be being hypocritical, a lot of it is just not needed.

Now this is why IMHO sites like funmac are appreciated by their small user-base. There is no annoying bickering. Everyone is just there for a good time and to discuss stuff and increase their/and others knowledge. Therefore, once again: Peace. Be friends.

Now, feel free to flame me for being extremely hypocritical and shamelessly promoting a certain site that I'm affiliated with :D

[Independence]

plinkoman - You're dead wrong. People have every right to bitch about Apple or any other company on this planet. It's a free speech issue and you, like Joseph Stalin, seem to be trying to put an end to that. The only people who can "outlaw" that on these forums are the admins.

Your fanatism and your disregard for basic rights will be your undoing, plinkoman.

[Westside guy]

Originally posted by K12MacTech
<snip> It is a battle I face daily in my school district. That student information package doesn't work on MacOSX? We better buy Compaqs for the teachers. <snip>

I see a bigger problem here, one I run into every day in my work as a webmaster. If it's just information, it should be presented in a Web-accessible format. I don't know why people insist on using Word (or WordPerfect, or whatever product) proprietary formats for publishing plain old text!

Our school district will let you subscribe to an e-mail list about school closings (inefficient; the Web announcements are better), but they still publish their monthly newsletter only on paper and send it home with the students. People don't seem to really be getting that the Web is a new (well, new-ish) paradigm - it's silly to use it as just a way to distribute information that's still packaged for the old technologies.

Yet I still get, most every day, Word documents that I'm told to "just post as-is on the intranet". :confused:

[nolem]

one of my favorite sloagans:
"dude, your returning a dell."
:p

[jeff.macaddict]

Steve said that there were lotsa updates and cool things to come later in the year. If nothing happens in June, well, I'll just have to join you disapointed people.

WWDC 2004-I can't wait!

Think of how wonderful the G5 is, it's been out for less than a year, and already is in tower and xserve form. And the VA tech supercluster. In one year, how well was the original G4 updated? I think it was from 400MHz to 733MHz. I may be wrong. Maybe it was less. I hope for a 2.6GHz and beyond powermac g5 lineup by mid year.

[MattG]

Originally posted by cwedl
Let me re-write how the keynote should have gone: Please tell me if you think otherwise.

1) New iLife 4.0 - iPhoto - Free, iTunes - Free. - download in an hour or so.

While I certainly wouldn't be opposed to downloading the new version of iPhoto for free, I'm also not opposed to paying $49 ($29 edu) for it along with four other great apps.

2)Sorrys guys because we have added more functions to iMovie, iDVD We have sell it to you as a CD, $39, but you also get GarageBand as well which is also to big to download.

I think $49 is generous enough.


3)iPod mini - 4GB all different colours - $199.

THIS I agree with. I could have sworn I heard crickets chirping when Steve announced the mini's $249 price tag.


4) G5 powermac upgrade - 1.8ghz, 2.0ghz dual , 2.2ghz dual - this will give them another change to upgrade before the summers - 3.0ghz.

Yeah this would have been nice, but they just updated the PM line with the dual 1.8, so I certainly wasn't expecting them to announce new desktops.

[jayscheuerle]

Apple is a product.

Buy it or not. A limited group, on either side, cares about what you do.

Steve and co. cares a rat's ass wether you leave or not. It's just a business and the bean counters are really counting and calling the shots, not Steve and the co-visionairies.

There was a certain cohesion between Apple and its users in the old days. It's not there now. Apple may be making what appears to be a superior product at these times, but from the viewpoint of someone who has been with them from before a large portion of the MacRumors posting base was even born, it's obvious that there is an agenda at work where loyalty doesn't hold as much strength as it used to.

C'est la vie, eh?