MWNY: G4 will be at 1.5 Ghz

[groov']

Look at this article: The Register has it confirmed....

"----------------------------------------------------------------------
Apple aims to boost bandwidth with 1.5GHz G4s
By Andrew Orlowski in San Francisco
Posted: 24/05/2002 at 09:29 GMT

Recent word from sources close to Motorola confirm that a significant speed bump will be timed for MacWorld Expo in July, raising current bus speeds, and seeing new 7470-based G4s raise frequencies to as high as 1.5Ghz.

The 7470 supports PC2100 DDR-SDRAM memory at 266MHz, as we told you back in February, (see New G4 roadmaps promise Apple harvest
), and PC2100 made its debut in Apple's product line with the launch of the Xserve rack last week. More importantly the new G4 supports front side bus speeds of 133MHz and ...."

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/25421.html

[Tiauguinho]

Oh My God!! I want One!!! Imagine 2 G4's runing at 1.5Ghz with DDR... Now we are talking about burning Pentiums!

[Ensign Paris]

I wonder if they will release the 1.5ghz in the Xserves at the same time as the PMs? It would make sense.

I can't wait for 1.5, I hope they are dual!

Ensign

[Beej]

1.5 is going against the general rumor trend... everyone else is tipping 1.4s. I'm going to have to stick with the 1.4 rumors.

[britboy]

Originally posted by Ensign Paris
I wonder if they will release the 1.5ghz in the Xserves at the same time as the PMs? It would make sense.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but i understood that with servers a high clock speed wasn't as important as the amount (and speed) of the ram. If the xserve already has dual 1GHz G4's, surely that's plenty already?

I know there's the future-proofing argument, but dual 1.5GHz just seems like huge over-kill for a server.

But DAMN! I'll be loving it if apple release a new machine, headlined as '3GHz'!!! That will be a beast-and-a-half.

[Macmaniac]

It would be so nice to have dual 1.5ghz! With DDRam that would be so cool! Lets hope!

[j763]

I'm slightly skeptical about the reg's info on new apple processors after this report (http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/archive/23078.html) (hint: look at date posted) :D.

[Zenith]

hehe... everybody thought that the G5 was coming for MWSF. a 'confirmation' by The Register isn't more than a rumour after all.

[reflex]

Note that The Register doesn't generally post rumors unless it has verified them at least a little bit. I'll believe this story over most on the rumor sites.

That said, it's still only a rumor of course.

Btw, a 2.4GHz G5 wouldn't go amiss either :D.

[Mr. Anderson]

Rumor aside, it does give you a nice feeling, doesn't it. Its a significant speed boost, regardless if it is 1.4 or 1.5, and add to that a very likely mobo update, and its going to be more than 1/2 again as fast.

[King Cobra]

I must say that assuming Apple goes from dual processor 1.0GHz to dual processor 1.5GHz that would be Apple's largest jump in processor power ever. Previously, it was DP 0.8GHz to DP 1.0GHz. However, this is a rumor.

I would still be happy if Apple simply debuts PowerMacs with a high end at DP 1.4GHz. Either way, although there will most likely be no G5s for a while, it's probably a win-win situation on speed.
__________________

Fear the King.

[G4scott]

these are going to be some serious pentium burning machines :)

I can't even remember if Apple has ever raised the speed of the top of the line model by 500mhz! I don't think that they ever have.

I just hope motorola can put out...

[eirik]

We've read and discussed much about the limitations and age of the Mobo. One important point from this, is the Mobo starving the CPU?

Well, if the current Mobo is starving a 1.0 GHz CPU or more so a dualie, and if the 7470 supports a front side bus speed of 133 or 166 with doubled...DDR, do we then have another situation of a Mobo starving a CPU? A much faster CPU that isn't kept properly fed by the Mobo would give us a hurry up and wait system.

So, the questioin is, will this speculated Mobo provide these significantly faster (1.5 GHz) CPU's enough data to take advantage of this CPU speed?

Eirik

[oldMac]

Say what you want about Motorola, but if they can manage to take the G4 from 800Mhz to 1500Mhz in 6 months, that's dam*ed impressive.

[daRAT]

Will the current 1 ghz chip be phased out? Or will Apple do away with the 800 and 900 mhz chip?

Cost is going to be the big factor in purchasing a new tower. Maybe there will be a "fire sale" on the current dualie models?:D

[oldMac]

Watch for Apple to keep making bigger L3 caches until they get up-to-speed with their bus. The speed boosts of recent machines using the large L3 caches really demonstrates how instruction-starved the current crop of machines are.

[King Cobra]

Originally posted by oldMac
Say what you want about Motorola, but if they can manage to take the G4 from 800Mhz to 1500Mhz in 6 months, that's dam*ed impressive.

Remember, you are going from low end to high end, which is really not the correct way to measure a gap.

Usually, you go from low end to low end, or from high end to high end.

If Apple does release the dual 1.5GHz model, then that is approximately a 50% increase in overall processing power. (Don't forget, there may be DDRAM or other surprises that await us.) And I do not remember recently when Apple went 50% from dual processor to dual processor. 800MHz to 1000MHz was about 25%. And with recently being the release of the G4s onward I don't think Apple has ever gone that fast. I know Apple has doubled 16MHz in a period of 8 months (back in 1993) but I think this is a really big jump.
__________________

Fear the King.

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by King Cobra

Remember, you are going from low end to high end, which is really not the correct way to measure a gap.

Usually, you go from low end to low end, or from high end to high end.


well, in january they still only had the 867 out right?

so if, in july (month seven), they get to 1.4/5, then they indeed will have gone up from 867 to 1.4/5 in just over 6 months.... not shabby at all.

i'm excited about it all...

too bad i can't get a new computer.

[Zaren]

Originally posted by reflex
Note that The Register doesn't generally post rumors unless it has verified them at least a little bit. I'll believe this story over most on the rumor sites.

If an article like this had been posted on appleturns.com, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, it seems like the owner and webgodess'es new baby is taking up a bit more time than they'd hoped - no updates on the site since the shareholders meeting :)

-----
Apple hardware too expensive? How about a raffle ticket? (http://www.macraffle.com/index.php?aff_id=144)

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by Zaren


If an article like this had been posted on appleturns.com, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, it seems like the owner and webgodess'es new baby is taking up a bit more time than they'd hoped - no updates on the site since the shareholders meeting :)

-----
Apple hardware too expensive? How about a raffle ticket? (http://www.macraffle.com/index.php?aff_id=144)

Well, I can tell you this, and you can take it with a grain of salt or how ever you choose. There will be 1.4 GHZ Duallies at MWNY. I have not heard anything about a 1.5's there, but you can bet the farm that you will a dual 1.4

[gopher]

We were supposed to see 1.4 Ghz chips according to The Register back in January. Nothing like that ever came out.

Still I love my Flat Panel iMac.

[drastik]

Maybe Moores law just came up this time. Honestly, MoRo should be much farther along than they are. Its possible that a 1.5 has been in the works for a couple of years and the problems have just been worked out.

Also, it would be a prime tme for apple to do a major upgrade, and a new case desin. In creased popularity with the new iMac has brought apple backonto the radar screen. XServe has pricked the ears of serious admins. If, in some close conjunction, apple realeases iPod for PC and then new cases at a much faster speed, everyone will be paying attention. iPods saturate world, PC users jump ship to get the apple their iPod has spoiled them too. New Cases, New Adds...

...somethings brewing at Infinite Loop, and I think its something big.

[Zenith]

From The Register's article:

With RapidIO ports and interleaved PC2700 memory, a humble G5 clocked to 1.5Ghz should be able to achieve memory throughput of 12GB/s.

Whoa... That's twelve times today's G4 PowerMac memory throughput. How's the bandwith for a 166 Mhz DDR bus? About 2.6 GB/s?

[sjs]

If in fact we get:

1.4 or 1.5 ghz
true DDR
faster bus
Jaguar
Quartz Extreme

isn't it likely that the minimum speed boost would be well over 50% and maybe approaching 100% at times?

PS If all this comes to pass, we are probably looking at slightly higher prices than today's pro models?

[teabgs]

I just hope that whatever the specs are on the new towers, that they'll ship imediately.

Cause I'm gonna buy one. and I want it now. Rather I want it 3 months ago! :D

I think the issue is WHEN WILL THEY SHIP and not will it be 1.4 or 1.5 Ghz....

[3rdpath]

i'm packing up my tent and a 6 week supply of power bars...ok, maybe not. but i will be buying one of those puppies. and 1.4/1.5 it just doesn't matter.

[jelloshotsrule]

i thnk mwny will be the first time since last mwny when it's a really exciting time for powermac users.... it excites me. even though i'm not buying now. i know the further we progress, the better the computer that i will eventually buy will be... word

[sjs]

Amen to jelloshotsrule's signature.

[mcrain]

I'd wet my pants if the low end powermac was a duel 1.4 Ghz G4, and the high end was a single processor G5 at 1.5Ghz.

Honey, can you bring me a towel??

[TechLarry]

The question is, can they do it and remain COMPETITIVE with the PC World ?

TL

[Macmaniac]

I Hope it is 1.5ghz, DP would be so nice! LETs hope for DDR ram and 266mhz system bus!

[woodsey]

If they are updating the profesional machines, then why wouldnt they upgrade the consumer version?

imagin a 1 ghz g4 imac with ddr RAM, and a 17 inch flat screen!

[teabgs]

Originally posted by Macmaniac
I Hope it is 1.5ghz, DP would be so nice! LETs hope for DDR ram and 266mhz system bus!

If they had done that with the dual 1Ghz I'd have that and not be buying in July...:rolleyes:

NOw I must buy.....so they'd better have DDR and a faster bus! SHEESH!

[slipjack]

Originally posted by sjs
If in fact we get:

1.4 or 1.5 ghz
true DDR
faster bus
Jaguar
Quartz Extreme

isn't it likely that the minimum speed boost would be well over 50% and maybe approaching 100% at times?

PS If all this comes to pass, we are probably looking at slightly higher prices than today's pro models?

Has anyone noticed that OS X still is slow as crap in programs like Flash MX? I think the BIGGEST bottleneck is the OS... so... all the read of us should benefit just as much or more from Jagwire.

I never understand the comments of 'shouldn't X Mhz be enough...' Nothing is EVER enough. Speed, speed, speed. With the advent of distributed computing extra cycles are usable cycles.

Anway, Hardware upgrades are nice, but we need to see more effort by Apple to speed up the software. Making us wait until the Summer for 10.2 sucks. (Some of us out there actually have to do work in the intervening months...)

OS X is usable on my dual 450 at work, but barely so on Classic and even some native programs like Flash. Unfortunately for me my vid cards are only Rage pros... sigh. Hopefully Apple has found other ways to optimize X besides just Quartz Extreme.

[AmbitiousLemon]

slipjack: i feel ya man. have you played with jaguar yet? apple definitely needs several months to get this thing working. its VERY beta right now. and developers need the time to get their apps working on it. that being said, certain parts of the os (even without QE) are running much faster.


a 1.5ghz rumor really isnt out of line with the other rumors we have been hearing. in fact all the detailed rumors out there state quite clearly that they are looking at chips between 1.2 and 1.5 ghz for the top model. in the end most of the rumors have come out at the end saying the 1.2 or 1.4 ghz models are most likely, but they still acknowledge the 1.5 as a possibility. what isnt clear is whether the writers of the articles (this one included) have been told 1.2, 1.4, or 1.5 is the most likley choice or whether they have made these decisions themselves as writers. i can easily image situations in which the sources simply state that chips are being samples at 1.2, 1.4, and 1.5 ghz and the writer then decides to say 1.2 or 1.4 to be safe or chooses to say 1.5 to be shocking.

also of interest is whether the FSB will be designed like the xserve's board. will it support ddr at full speed but keep the rest of the bus at 133mhz? if they chose this route (as they might do since this is what we already know they can do) then some of you might be up for some disappointment.

if we see a case redesign we might think they are following the B/WG3 route, where the redesign precedes a chip change. work out all the bugs on the tried and true chip and then 6-9 months later drop your new chip in the new case.

but any thought of a 5th generation chip reminds me of recent reports that apple has dropped moto's g5 and begun meeting with ibm to design its next chip. if this is true, then work could just be getting underway at ibm making any release in the near future unlikely. still ibm has a lot of chips already in the pipeline and has been a proven innovator, perhaps they could indeed crank out a brand new 5th generation chip in a years time, seems unlikley though.

anyway ive got a small "situation" on my hands so i best be attending to other things, so ill just ask that some sane minds come in hear and link everyone up with the various past rumors i mentioned.

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by slipjack


Has anyone noticed that OS X still is slow as crap in programs like Flash MX? I think the BIGGEST bottleneck is the OS... so... all the read of us should benefit just as much or more from Jagwire.

I never understand the comments of 'shouldn't X Mhz be enough...' Nothing is EVER enough. Speed, speed, speed. With the advent of distributed computing extra cycles are usable cycles.

Anway, Hardware upgrades are nice, but we need to see more effort by Apple to speed up the software. Making us wait until the Summer for 10.2 sucks. (Some of us out there actually have to do work in the intervening months...)

OS X is usable on my dual 450 at work, but barely so on Classic and even some native programs like Flash. Unfortunately for me my vid cards are only Rage pros... sigh. Hopefully Apple has found other ways to optimize X besides just Quartz Extreme.

Dude, this will be a massive, absolutely friggin huge upgrade is the rumors are right. Now that being said, no Software upgrade can be better than 400 MHZ, and DDR Memory, and a better bus. Period. Jaguar, however, is going to make it that much better. As for your 450. How much memory do you have in it. Because X.1.4 is more than useable on my iBook 600 and iMac 600.

[Billicus]

Originally posted by daRAT
Will the current 1 ghz chip be phased out? Or will Apple do away with the 800 and 900 mhz chip?

Cost is going to be the big factor in purchasing a new tower. Maybe there will be a "fire sale" on the current dualie models?:D

Definitely. Apple is already offering rebates, which suggests in and of itself that there will be new machines. My $ is on the 1.5 GHz beast. Have a nice day. ;) :D

[serpicolugnut]

on both my G4's (even my PBG4/500 rev. A), FlashMX runs much faster under OS X than Flash 5 did under 9.

[jg3]

"Hello, Mac fans! As you know, I'm Steve Jobs, and I've got a TON of exciting stuff to introduce today. New hardware, new software, new companies joining us in pushing the Mac to new levels. To start, I want to get the not-so-good news out of the way so we can focus on the good news: contrary to what you've likely read on Mac rumor sites far and wide, we've been less than fortunate regarding getting our G4 chips up to speed. So I'd like to announce our new models, starting at 933 MHz... the midrange is dual 1 GHz... and our new top-of-the-line machine at dual 1.15 GHz. Yes, I know it's a disappointment, and I'm sorry. There was also a small... mishap on our main production floor about a week ago, so we don't expect to be shipping in volume for another 2-3 weeks. Let's not linger on this any longer. Moving on, Jagwire WILL in fact be released TODAY!! As you know it's packed with new features, it's much faster, and for you developers in the crowd, you can now add a brushed aluminum interface to your apps with the click of a button! But wait there's more...."

Later...
"... so that just about wraps up what we have for you today. Oh wait... there's one more thing. I was just kidding about those PowerMacs. We are in fact ready to ship single 1.1 GHz, single 1.4 GHz, and dual 1.5 GHz machines TODAY, complete with DDR RAM and a totally revamped motherboard to match!..."

Oh Uncle Steve...

[eyelikeart]

this is really great!!!! :D

I just wish I could afford to go out and buy one...:(

the way I'm starting to see it, though, is we're going to be buying a new system here at work at some point this year...

maybe I'll have a 1.5 Ghz?? :D

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by eyelikeart
this is really great!!!! :D

I just wish I could afford to go out and buy one...:(

the way I'm starting to see it, though, is we're going to be buying a new system here at work at some point this year...

maybe I'll have a 1.5 Ghz?? :D

Man, that would be great for you. Hey, maybe I could talk Darin into donating one to my wifes education.... It would be a tax write off :D

They won't be 1.5's though they will be 1.4's. Unless MOTO has managed to pull off a magic trick in less than two months.

[Foocha]

If it's true, it's great news - four words:

Apple is catching up!

[Backtothemac]

Oh, don't worry about one thing. They will be ready right away. They have learned from the iMac, and they already have these things stocking up somewhere. They will be anounced, they will rock, and they will start selling in droves that day. :D

[teabgs]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Oh, don't worry about one thing. They will be ready right away. They have learned from the iMac, and they already have these things stocking up somewhere. They will be anounced, they will rock, and they will start selling in droves that day. :D

oh yeah? is this a fact and you've got proof? Or just your intuition?


IF its a fact I love you....if not, i hope you're right

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by teabgs


oh yeah? is this a fact and you've got proof? Or just your intuition?


IF its a fact I love you....if not, i hope you're right

I can't really get into how I know. Just trust me on this. I know. You see, I am really Steve Jobs, and I have been coming here for quite a while now. I always enjoyed reading the threads, and it was MacRumors that inspired us on our homepage before the iMac was released.

NOT!!!

Anyway, it is going to be amazing. Just look at all the signs. Rebates on everything, all Hardware lines have already been refreshed including the iPod. The stage is set for new PowerMac, a digital device, X.2, and other software. Look for iTunes 3, and a version of the iPod for Windows.

[rice_web]

Now, we just need discounts, and big time discounts before MWNY.

In the event of a release of a 1.5GHz PowerMac, the current line of PowerMacs would decrease in value up to 30%. The Dual 1GHz would sell for maybe $2,000. So, Apple should start offering discounts on PowerMac purchases, and more than the $300 that they currently offer.

[teabgs]

true the signs all point in the right direction but lets not get too excited. Moto can F it up any time....

So until it IS released nothing is set....

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by teabgs
true the signs all point in the right direction but lets not get too excited. Moto can F it up any time....

So until it IS released nothing is set....

You are right about that. There have been times when Apple has slated a product for release, only to have to bump it at the last minute due to Motorolla. Hopefully this will not happen on this go around though, and I doubt that it will. This MWNY is going to be huge. Way beyond the rumor sites, way beyond :D

[teabgs]

Originally posted by Backtothemac


This MWNY is going to be huge. Way beyond the rumor sites, way beyond :D


Is that even possible any more? they'd have to deliver HUGE to be way beyond a 2.4Ghz G5 and the iWalk (haha, right) and all the other stuff that floats around

[Choppaface]

hope they get that bus speed way up. with intel's new 533mhz bus, the p4 is starting to kick an XP 2100

[whatever]

Well, it does appear that something big will be happening in July, but my question pertains to the PowerBook. I'm considering buying a PowerBook 800MHz, however what are the chances of Apple releasing a 1GHz in New York? I'm not one to wait forever, but is it possible?

It seems that Apple keeps throughing curves at us and they're not as predictable had they once were with upgrades. I doubt we'll see G5's before 2003, except in the Xserve (expect that in November-December).

So should buy a 800MHz now or wait?

Thanks


:D

[blogo]

Last MWNY the high end (733mhz) became the low end, so it's a good chance that the high ends will have about 1,5ghz in clock speed.

[King Cobra]

Originally posted by whatever
So should buy a 800MHz now or wait?

Look, I learned a lesson from Undeclared that would apply to this situation:

If you wait now, you will be waiting forever.

Besides, the Revision C Powerbook is an incredible machine. It already performs multiple gigaflops and has many fixed problems over the previous revs. I am pretty sure that once Jaguar is loaded in it, it will go faster. For now, however, we are stuck with 10.1.
__________________

Fear the King.

[jg3]

People fall into 4 main categories based on 2 criteria: if they can afford it, and if they need it.

If you can afford a new computer and need one, buy right away unless there's a MacWorld or something right around the corner, in which case you buy right after the event regardless of what is announced.

If you can afford one but don't need one, it's up to you. Most people should wait and use their money in a better way, but if you've got TONS of cash, well, go nuts. Help Apple's market share! :)

If you can't afford a new computer and don't need one, chill (this is my situation). If you still would like a new comp, set some specs that you will not compromise on, otherwise you will likely drive yourself insane trying to think of ways to get enough money to buy new equipment. Once a model that meets those specs is available and affordable (and especially if you need a new comp by then), buy.

If you can't afford a new computer but need one, you're screwed. :) Consider if you really need a new computer, or just want one. Try upgrading the tight spots instead if you can, and hang in there! Computers only get better.

For what it's worth, in mid-April I laid down these minimum specs:
o 800MHz G4
o 512MB DDR RAM
o DVD/CD-RW
o 40GB storage
o AirPort
o >1024x768
o Mac OS 10.2

And shortly after that, the new Ti's came out and hit those specs almost on the nose, with the exception of DDR and 10.2. Also still working on the affordability part. :) Maybe by Christmas, and if not then, next summer. *sigh* I hate the waiting game. :)

[audiopainter]

Think about it! A G5 2.4Ghz translates to over a 10Ghz Pentium.
A 1Ghz G5 is OVER twice as fast as a 2Ghz Pentium (according to IBM)!

I'd be VERY happy with "just" a 1Ghz G5.

[arn]

Originally posted by whatever
Well, it does appear that something big will be happening in July, but my question pertains to the PowerBook. I'm considering buying a PowerBook 800MHz, however what are the chances of Apple releasing a 1GHz in New York? I'm not one to wait forever, but is it possible?


PowerBook will almost certainly not be upgraded at MWNY.

buy it now....

that is my opinion.

arn

[gambit]

The TiBooks will not be updated at MWNY because they just updated the TiBooks!

[barkmonster]

right now the 1Ghz G4 is a 7.5 x multiplyer

As far as I know, the G4 multiplyer steps in 0.5 increments, not 0.25

because these macs will have a 266Mhz DDR Motherboard but still a 133Mhz FSB like the Athlon, we'll be looking at possible speeds like this:

1000Mhz (7.5 x)
1066.67Mhz (8 x)
1200Mhz (9 x)
1333.33Mhz (10 x)
1400Mhz (10.5 x)
1466.67Mhz (11 x)
1533.33Mhz (11.5 x)
1600Mhz (12 x)

I'm pretty much looking at the 1.4 as being the realistic one to be looking forward to because it's been mentioned a lot over the past few months. it would be cool if the line up was like this though:

1.2Ghz - Fast
1.2Ghz Dual - Faster
1.4Ghz Dual - Fastest
1.533Ghz Dual - Ultimate

Obviously, we'd want no price increases and a L3 on the entry level this time, audio inputs wouldn't go a miss either.

[xelterran]

if they put a quad in one of the new servers thatd be pretty cool..

[rice_web]

A jump to 1.5GHz would close the gap between AMD and Motorola significantly. Currently, the fastest XP processor runs at 1.73GHz.

[Grokgod]

I cant believe that I hadnt looked at it that way before!

If the new g4 goes up to 1.4 or 1.533 then its just a hop and a skip form the AMD cpu.
For some reason I was always thinking about the p4 2.4 or 2.5.
But thats just Intel tripping over themselves to get to the door with the fabulous stupid machine behind it!

230 is nothing, we will back in the race, oh crap that feels good!

I can feel the begging gene ready to activate right at New York.
Wish there was something I could do besides yearn and burn until then.

~ On a side note, not to be negative or anything, but King Cobra your avt, scares the hell out of me, I have a fear of snakes, could you please change it.
I always have to scroll really fast past your post.

:P thank you very much , I appreciate that. :P

[kaneda]

You guys will be disappointed this coming July...That is all I have to say...

:( :( :(

[rice_web]

I'm not expecting a 1.5GHz G4. In fact, all that I am predicting is a 1.2GHz G4 configuration, that possibly supports DDR RAM.

[blackpeter]

1.5GHz in July would be way ahwad of Moore's Law. I'm not so sure that they can produce such a chip in mass quanities.

[AmbitiousLemon]

i dont expect a 1.5ghz but it is certainly a possibility. barkmonster proved this by showing the mulipler works out 1.5ghz would be a 11.5x. but like i said before this rumor is not saying anything the others didnt. all the rumors have said that they are sampling chips between 1.2 and 1.5 ghz. some of the writers have chosen to say that that means we will get a 1.2 ghz powermac, others (most) have said the middle chip the 1.4 will likley be used, and now one writer has chosen to be optimistic and say the 1.5ghz will be able to be produced in high enough quantity to make it into the new powermacs.

i would guess that even apple doesnt know yet. probably waiting to see what the fastest chip they can get in quantity is.

1.2 1.4 or 1.5 all seem to be in the works. right now it just seems we are waiting for some word that sufficient quantites have been produced of one of the chips.

[jefhatfield]

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon

1.2 1.4 or 1.5 all seem to be in the works. right now it just seems we are waiting for some word that sufficient quantites have been produced of one of the chips.

sufficient quantities has been the letdown for apple all these times in the past

the pc-mac gap does not look that bad to me since at least we have jumped over the 1 ghz mark and if we hit 1.5, then so what if wintel has a 2.5?...do you think the consumers will still get duped?

i think the average consumer has caught onto the speed war thing and all the hype that surrounds it

people will now start looking at features before speed...i hope

[rice_web]

Speed is still a priority, as systems (and this includes top of the line Intel and AMD processors) just don't feel quick. Turning on a computer still takes entirely too long, windows can sometimes take a few seconds to pop-up, and for anything video related, speed will always be important.

However, Apple will reach 1.2GHz this MWNY (or around that time). Beyond this, is anyone's guess. Yet, most people are predicting a 166MHz system bus (I would hope for more) and DDR memory.

The one upgrade I would love to see: 10,000RPM hard drives with ATA100 or ATA133.

[barkmonster]

The current G4s and, until recently, G3s don't have fast enough FSBs (front side buses) to make DDR useful. This is the main reason Apple has not added it to its systems, not because they are short sighted or didn't want to. They have been held back because of stalled FSB speeds on the G4s.

Even in the XServe the G4s cannot fully tax the DDR RAM included (FSB supports ~1GB/s, PC2100 supports ~2.1GB/s). XServe can utilize the extra memory bandwidth doing DMA from its multi-channel EIDE controller and 64bit/66Mhz PCI slots. The CPUs, however, can not _directly_ utilize the full throughput capabilities of the memory bus.

This will change "shortly" when improved G4/G5 come out with faster FSBs and/or RapidIO interfaces.



This was on MacNN in one of the forums about this topic.

It makes sense to me in a way but I still don't fully understand how PCs based on the Pentium 4, which up until recently only had a 100Mhz FSB with quad speed 400Mhz Rdram and the Athlon has a 133Mhz FSB with 266Mhz DDR Ram can be any different really.

I mean, they're not Really 400Mhz and 266Mhz are they ? it's just the speed of the motherboard and the CPU isn't comunicating with the motherboard any faster than the current G4s do. Of course now the folks at intel have got a 133Mhz FSB like us but they're Rdram now runs at 533Mhz.

I'm just thinking a faster motherboard on it's own wouldn't be enough to compete at all tasks with the new Pentium 4 or Athlon XP chips but with faster G4s, say 1.4 or 1.53Ghz, coupled with the rumoured 266 or 333Mhz Motherboards they would be reasonably faster than the current G4s are, even taking the extra clock speed into account. It's the Mac vs Mac speed that really matters. We won't be too far behind with those kinds of speeds either.

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by barkmonster


This was on MacNN in one of the forums about this topic.

It makes sense to me in a way but I still don't fully understand how PCs based on the Pentium 4, which up until recently only had a 100Mhz FSB with quad speed 400Mhz Rdram and the Athlon has a 133Mhz FSB with 266Mhz DDR Ram can be any different really.

I mean, they're not Really 400Mhz and 266Mhz are they ? it's just the speed of the motherboard and the CPU isn't comunicating with the motherboard any faster than the current G4s do. Of course now the folks at intel have got a 133Mhz FSB like us but they're Rdram now runs at 533Mhz.

I'm just thinking a faster motherboard on it's own wouldn't be enough to compete at all tasks with the new Pentium 4 or Athlon XP chips but with faster G4s, say 1.4 or 1.53Ghz, coupled with the rumoured 266 or 333Mhz Motherboards they would be reasonably faster than the current G4s are, even taking the extra clock speed into account. It's the Mac vs Mac speed that really matters. We won't be too far behind with those kinds of speeds either.
Um, yes and no. The PVI is a 100MHZ bus that is quad pumped, whatever the hell that means, so it is theoretically 400 MHZ. The Athlon is 266 MHZ. Period. That is why the Athlon will smoke a P IV. Now if the G4 goes to 266 MHZ DDR and a 133 bus, it will smoke either. I personally see the Bus going to a true 266.

[mmmdreg]

I haven't read this whole thread so I may be repeating someone but I think 1.5GHz is a bit optimistic...I'm betting on 1.4...and to someone who posted upstairs quite a bit, a doubt the PowerBooks will be updated...that'll happen sometime between the next two macworlds...

[Billicus]

Originally posted by mmmdreg
I haven't read this whole thread so I may be repeating someone but I think 1.5GHz is a bit optimistic...I'm betting on 1.4...and to someone who posted upstairs quite a bit, a doubt the PowerBooks will be updated...that'll happen sometime between the next two macworlds...
Indeed. Perhaps you should have read the rest. It's all up there. :D

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by kaneda
You guys will be disappointed this coming July...That is all I have to say...

:( :( :(

Kaneda,
Why are you saying this? Are you refering to the rumor that started the article, or to the daydreaming that is taking place over some of the proc specs? If the 1st, then how do you know? Source?

The reason that I ask, is that the people that I know in the loop are saying yes to this rumor. What gives?

[Ovi]

1

[Rower_CPU]

Originally posted by Ovi
After reading most of the messages, I found only a couple of people smart enough to smell the roses. Most are living in dream land. No one has been able to explain, how suddenly MOTO is now able to increase the speed on the G4 from 1ghz to 1.5ghz in 6 months. This is such a big jump that news of the breakthrough would have been all over the net. The fact that Apple placed the 1 ghz in the high end model clearly shows that they don't have many of these chips. In July we will not see a speed bump. Lower prices, more ram, and bigger drives maybe...

If 1 GHz chips are in such short supply, then why are they shipping them in dual processor configs?!? That makes absolutely no sense.

The PowerMac has been at its current speed since late January. In order for Apple to stay competitive with the PC market they need to update their flagship machine. Period.

And since when has the general public on the 'Net been privvy to the current Moto clock speeds. At the rate Intel and AMD are increasing chip speed, Moto has to make big jumps to keep up. I personally think 1.5 is high, but saying that there will be NO speed bump is ridiculous, especially for someone who has "followed Apple for 4 years".

[Foocha]

Let's face facts - everyone on this board "follows Apple" - perhaps substantially more than is healthy, myself included.

I think it's hard to identify much of a pattern in Apple's product announcements and upgrades except to say that recently there has been a shift from announcing everything at MacWorld keynotes, to making announcements as and when the product is ready with special events at Cupertino. As a result of this, Jobs had very little to announce at MWNY last Summer, leading to the legendary remark (which he probably never said) "we should have been ready..." or whatever it was he allegedly said.

Suffice to say, Jobs was disappointed by the reation of the crowd to last years MWNY keynote, and will want something substantial to announce at that event this year to make amends.

Whether the PowerMac takes center stage or we get another "breakthrough digital device" in the spotlight remains to be seen, but I'd be very suprise if we didn't see any kind of speed boost to the desktop line - and we can all wish for 1.5Ghz, right?

[Ovi]

1

[gopher]

Motorola has chosen to emphasize more on better caching and RISC processing than Mhz, as well as vector processing. The problem is for some people all they see is Mhz. Macs are up to 5 times faster than PCs of even twice the Mhz if the software takes advantage of the full capabilities of the G4. Look at the RC5 and Blast tests on the G4, neither of which use dual processors, and both ended up 5 times faster on a 1 Ghz G4 than a 2 GHz Pentium IV.

For the results check:

http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/systems/dual_1ghz_performance_test.html

and

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2002/feb/07blast.html

The problem of course is developers aren't
aware of how to develop for the G4 exclusively, and tend to try to focus only on
graphics cards. The good news is the Radeon 8500 is a 64MB of VRAM card, and Quartz Extreme which will be built-in to Jaguar http://www.apple.com/macosx/newversion

will take advantage of any videocard that has 16MB of VRAM or more on a Mac.

There is more about the development for Altivec and how simple it is here:

http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/mac/2002/04/05/altivec.html

Now if you can get your developer to read that article, perhaps they could develop your software with the Altivec more in mind and make software that is more up to speed on the Mac.

Mac OS X also slows down because developers don't update their prebinding when installing Mac applications (Apple does). Prebinding fixes many of the file links. The good news is that you can update prebinding on the whole system to fix those speed problems with freeware such as Pacifist: http://www.versiontracker.com/moreinfo.fcgi?id=12743&db=mac

So before you think that Motorola is behind, the problem isn't that. Developers are behind, and don't know the tools available to their disposal. Not to mention the G4 has half as many stages on its pipeline making processing of code with error quicker,
as errors get cleared through on each process earlier allowing more processes to move through. There is a whole discussion about this at:

http://www.apple.com/powermac/architecture.html

[eirik]

Originally posted by Rower_CPU


If 1 GHz chips are in such short supply, then why are they shipping them in dual processor configs?!? That makes absolutely no sense.



I wish we had a breakdown in sales numbers per Mac product. I tend to agree with Ovi whereas the high-end price of the high-end PowerMac is such that a very small percentage of Mac folk buy them. Consequently, I expect that the volume is very low, so low that two times this volume is still considerably lower than that of the 933 and 800 meg CPU's. To keep volume low, Apple has to price them upward. To justify the high price, Apple has to place two CPU's in the box.

Eirik

[Backtothemac]

To look at the past and let it govern the future is just not a accurate way to predict what will happen. Now, you can use it as a guage, but here is my question. Moto has been producing processors that are very strong, and in most tests will run right with a Pentium that is twice as fast. So, why make it faster? Keep your chips going as needed, and then when you need a 500 MHZ boost, boom, there it is. Why not?

I don't know the hows or why's, but I can tell you there will be dual 1.4's at NY. Bank on it.

[Inhale420]

Originally posted by G4scott
these are going to be some serious pentium burning machines :)



and with the little happy face at the end of your post, i knew you had to be kidding.

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by Inhale420


and with the little happy face at the end of your post, i knew you had to be kidding.

Do you think that they will not be serious Pentium Burning Machines? Patiently awaiting response.

[AmbitiousLemon]

Hey B2TM good to see someone n here fighting the good fight. ive been shocked reading post after post of self proclaimed experts tell us all that we are all stupid and they have some special crystal ball into the future. seems like ovi needs to get out the windex and clean the smudges off that crystal ball of his.

so what if apple has never done a 500mhz jump before, apple has never been deaing with such large numbers before. the speed increases are doubtless to increase in magnitude. i prefer to think of percentage increases. apple has doubled mhz in the past on a number of occassions. a 50% increase in mhz today therefore does not seem so unlikely. especially when considering the things gopher pointed out. now here is someone who knows whats up, apple hasnt focused on mhz in awhile now, but per the article it seems like that may be changing (did you even read the article naysayers?). with a sudden switch in focus i would not be at all surprised to hear of a 400 or 500 mhz jump.

and then the pentium burning machines comment. i guess because so many of you are new to the platform you dont understand the speed of macs. we have experts who think proclaiming that they have watched apple for a whole 4 years as if that is a long time. apple computers even today are comparable in speed to the fastest pentiums. and it was not too long ago that apple completely dominated the speed market. things have evened out lately, with apple being faster in some areas and intel/amd being faster in others. imagining that with all the new technology apple is supposed to be dumping into the powermacs over the next year and a half the apples will regain their dominance is really not all that far out. apple has been able to stay on level ground with the wintel world despite using some old tech that is slowing down the new stuff. unleashing the power of the g4 by giving it a new board and ram along with a significant speed bump to the g4 could make for a very powerful computer.

[Backtothemac]

Lemon,
Man, I agree! It is out of control! Prior to man walking on the moon, no one had ever walked on the moon, but so what they did it. I can't wait till NY so I can come back and rub the accuracy of the predictions in some people faces. I am normally very level headed you know that, but I cannot stand rants. Inhale 420 and I have gone at it before in here, and he posts like he was Cyrus. Troll, through and through.

[rice_web]

1.5GHz. Wow. That would perform like lightning.

However, let's take a look at what would enable (1) Motorola to reach that level, and (2) Apple using this technology in their computers.

(1)
Motorola is rumored to be using the following in their upcoming processors:
- 0.13 micron manufacturing process
- A longer pipeline

With those two additions to the G4, it may easily scale to 1.5GHz, and possibly beyond. The pipeline, from what I have read, is rumored to be nearly doubled to 12 stages.

(2)
Apple is changing things up lately. They haven't followed a pattern of product releases, and have been difficult to predict. So, 1.5GHz may be a possibility. With the discounts that are currently offered on PowerMacs ($300 rebate, discount on monitor purchase, and a free firewire hard drive), something fairly large must be on the way.

------------

All in all, I'd say that the conditions are right for Apple to release a 1.5GHz machine, although I still wouldn't hold my breath. All I'd care to see is 1.2GHz with DDR memory.

[AmbitiousLemon]

B2TM: :)

rice: well said, i knew we could count on someone to sum it up better.

one more thing is that this rumor is completely in line with all the other. all rumors have been saying that moto is sampling chips at 1.2 1.4 and 1.5 ghz. each author then decides which to back with his personal prediction. must have guessed 1.4ghz, this rumor simply states that they have info that the 1.5ghz may be a possibility.

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
B2TM: :)

rice: well said, i knew we could count on someone to sum it up better.

one more thing is that this rumor is completely in line with all the other. all rumors have been saying that moto is sampling chips at 1.2 1.4 and 1.5 ghz. each author then decides which to back with his personal prediction. must have guessed 1.4ghz, this rumor simply states that they have info that the 1.5ghz may be a possibility.

I posted specs back in February or March, can't remember which about what I was hearing, and the cool thing is that almost all of the rumors out there are fitting in line with what I have been saying all along. There are also a couple of suprises that are just going to blow everyone away. I can't wait till July.
:D

[AmbitiousLemon]

should be interesting. apple hasnt been hyping this as much as the imac debut. just wish i was going to be near a tv or internet connection come july.

[barkmonster]

when the first 7450 based macs came out, even with the 1Mb of level 3 cache, the 733Mhz Model wasn't competing well with the 533Mhz model, that was only a modest increase from 4 to 7 pipeline stages and a 1Mb DDR cache (there was no mention of this in the specs but someone identified the L3 cache as being DDR in an overclocking article).

If we do get a 1533 or 1466Mhz G4 in the new macs with a 10 or 12 stage pipeline, it's not going to be faster than the current PPC7455 chips at the same clock speed. I imagine DDR ram on the motherboard, a 512K L2 and 4Mb L3 would probably make the a 1466 or 1533Mhz G4 perform around 50% faster than a 1Ghz G4 but it could be less than that.

I just want a mac that not only costs around £1,350 - £1,500 including V.A.T. but at least matches the performance on a 2Ghz Pentium 4. It's got to last me 4 years at least without me getting frustrated with how slow it becomes after a year or 2 like I did with my beige G3, I've pretty much being waiting for 1.2Ghz before I look at buying another mac so I get a 4 fold speed increase over my beige G3 and a modern motherboard. Obviously I could have gone for an entry level 800Mhz model earlier in the year, it performs just over 3 times faster than my 300Mhz beige in protools LE and it would obviously scream at running software synths but baring in mind how much faster the 933Mhz model is with the L3 cache, I need more Mhz and DDR on the entry level model before I can be sure it's worth saving for.

I doubt I'll be getting a new mac this year but if I set my sights on one of the new models, at least I can stand a chance of affording it right before MWSF next year. I made the biggest mistake of my life buying a beige G3 2 weeks before the B & W G3s we're reviewed properly, I just bought what I could for £1,400 and made do. It's more clean cut buying a G4, it's got guaranteed specs and I know what I'm getting if I buy an end of life model. Plus I could put the money I'd save of buying new on something like a 17" LCD to go with it.

Protools X & Unity Session running under OS X on a single CPU 1.2Ghz G4 with DDR sounds like a realistic goal for my next mac and future audio setup to me.

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by barkmonster
I just want a mac that not only costs around £1,350 - £1,500 including V.A.T. but at least matches the performance on a 2Ghz Pentium 4. It's got to last me 4 years at least without me getting frustrated with how slow it becomes after a year or 2 like I did with my beige G3.


Look, no offense here ok. There are already systems that compete with a 2GHZ PIV for the money your talking about. All of the current PowerMacs will compete with a PIV and smoke it in most apps. To think that a system is going to stay crisp and "snappy" for 4 years is just unreal. Don't ever fool yourself into thinking that could happen. Sure there are people out there with iMacs from 99 and it is just as fast as it was when it was bought. And it always will be as fast as it was in 99, but through 10.1.4 on there and Photoshop 7 and it isn't so fast anymore.

Buy a new dual 1.4 GHZ with a 2 Gigs of DDR, and a 120 GB hard drive and it will blow the doors off anything out there. Now in four years, it will not run the most modern software in the world. Think of computer years as dog years. 1 year = 7 years in all other buisnesses.
;)

[rice_web]

I'd like to comment on the expanded pipeline:

When the 733 was released as a low-end CPU, it was STILL FASTER than a single 533, except in a couple of tests. Still, the 733 was, on average, about 7% faster than the 533 (the biggest increases in speed were obvious in Quake).

So, a jump to 12 pipelines from 7 can hurt performance. Much like a P4 is easily beat out by a P3 running at the same clock speed, the new G4s will be killed by current G4s at the same clock speed, except for the new goodies that we will see.

The new G4s are expected to carry DDR memory, a possible 4MB L3 cache (at least 2), and possibly a 512K L2 cache. Plus, this new chip might incorporate a 0.13 micron manufacturing process along with SOI. SOI has proven to boost performance up to 20% at the same clock speeds.

So, I'd expect that the new G4s will run faster than current G4s at the same clock speed, even with the hike in pipeline stages. Plus, the new G4 (based upon more pipeline stages and better manufacturing process) should scale well.

[gopher]

Apple has at least that to thank for.

And don't think the Itanium will make it better for Intel. So far the Itanium can only make it to 800 Mhz. Should really debunk the Mhz myth once and for all if that is what they release.

Originally posted by rice_web
1.5GHz. Wow. That would perform like lightning.

However, let's take a look at what would enable (1) Motorola to reach that level, and (2) Apple using this technology in their computers.

(1)
Motorola is rumored to be using the following in their upcoming processors:
- 0.13 micron manufacturing process
- A longer pipeline

With those two additions to the G4, it may easily scale to 1.5GHz, and possibly beyond. The pipeline, from what I have read, is rumored to be nearly doubled to 12 stages.

(2)
Apple is changing things up lately. They haven't followed a pattern of product releases, and have been difficult to predict. So, 1.5GHz may be a possibility. With the discounts that are currently offered on PowerMacs ($300 rebate, discount on monitor purchase, and a free firewire hard drive), something fairly large must be on the way.

------------

All in all, I'd say that the conditions are right for Apple to release a 1.5GHz machine, although I still wouldn't hold my breath. All I'd care to see is 1.2GHz with DDR memory.

[barkmonster]

Look, no offense here ok. There are already systems that compete with a 2GHZ PIV for the money your talking about. All of the current PowerMacs will compete with a PIV and smoke it in most apps.

I'm not trying to start an argument but I know for a fact the entry level G4 can match at least a 1.8Ghz Pentium 4 for what I spend most of my time doing. It's just a few other things where it would lag behind.

For protools LE, the mac stacks up pretty well against a PC

G4 800 : 135 plugins
P4 1.8Ghz : 125 plugins

This is from the Dave C test on the Digidesign site, I've done it myself and managed only 30 plugins with all the tweaking I could do to get them. I know I'm in for treat when I buy a new mac!

I was over-exagerating a little on the 4 year thing, I just know that for my main application, Protools LE, my beige G3 is slow but (just about) usable, I don't doubt that if I had a 1Ghz+ G4, It would easily last 4 years at a push if it took me that long top save up for a new one. I've had my beige G3 for nearly 4 years and I've only begun to feel the lack of speed over the past 18 months or so. To be honest, I'd really be looking at a new mac every year if I could afford to upgrade that frequently.

Seeing as photoshop is the main benchmarking application Apple use, here's some numbers that prove how slow the entry level G4 is for photoshop:

It's taken from Barefeats (http://www.barefeats.com/pentium4.html)

1.8Ghz Pentium 4 : 59 seconds
933Mhz G4 : 72 seconds

There were no comparable results for the 800Mhz model so here's the results from another test on the site using the same benchmark action:

933Mhz G4 : 71 seconds
800Mhz G4 : 101 seconds

from that you can see that a 1.8Ghz Pentium 4 is around 70% faster for photoshop than an 800Mhz G4. Again, I'm not trying to start an argument here, You can prove anything with facts and the old "reality distortion field" stuff doesn't work on me :D

I just think whatever Apple bring out at MWNY, people who've held out a few years on upgrading will be pretty happy with the performance they'll get out of it.

[Dunepilot]

I feel in a similar position to Barkmonster.

I'm hoping to get a new mac this summer to run logic audio.

At the moment I'm using a PBG3 333, and look forward to seeing a massive performance leap in whichever G4 I go for. Having said that, I know this'll be lost to some extent by the switch from OS9 to OSX (which won't perform decently on this machine in any of the versions I've tried so far (320Mb RAM)).

Anyway, I'm going to get a G4 tower of some description, hopefully a DP (though if they keep the middle/low-end machines Single processor, this won't happen).:(

What concerns me is that I'll need a 4/6/8 input soundcard of some description, but I would find it incredibly galling to go and buy something like the MOTU 828 (which is very expensive anyway - are there ANY firewire alternatives?!) only to find out that MOTU don't come out with any OS X drivers, stranding me in crash-prone OS 9 land.

The Tascam 428 looks like it might be okay, and I really like the idea of the control surface, but I wonder whether USB can handle enough throughput to properly record 4 channels of audio simultaneously (and there are OSX drivers, and it's a lot cheaper than the MOTU)?

The reason why I'm looking primarily at external solutions and not PCI-related ones is that I'd like to be able to employ whatever recording solution on both my new G4 and my old powerbook for on-location recording.

Anyone have any ideas? And yes, I really want a desktop G4, NOT a G4 powerbook (for upgradeability, extra hard drives etc)

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by barkmonster
1.8Ghz Pentium 4 : 59 seconds
933Mhz G4 : 72 seconds



A couple of problems that I have on this test is that it is Photoshop 6. Was it run under classic or X. If X, then that means it had to be run under classic, and that is not a fair test. Actually, when you think about it, it really shows how strong the Mac is. Not to mention that it smoked the Pentium in other tests, look at the Bryce 5 test. I would like to see them re-run it with Photoshop 7. Bet the outcome would be different.

[barkmonster]

A couple of problems that I have on this test is that it is Photoshop 6. Was it run under classic or X.

The benchmarks are a few months old now, there are tests on barefeats that show that running Photoshop 7 under OS X is faster than 6 in OS 9. I imagine running the PC vs Mac benchmark again with Photoshop 7 under OS X would be even more impressive.

I doubt it would bring the entry level or mid range G4s upto speed against a recent Pentium 4 chip though.

[gaomay]

Hi folks

This is my first post! I've just converted to Macs when I started my current post (during my PhD I used PCs - took a long time to write my thesis what with crashes and all!).

Anyway, to the point. I think the Mhz gap is important but that Apple has many other strengths. I intend to buy an eMac soon, and I don't care that it "only" has a 700Mhz G4 - yes, I could probably get a 2Ghz P4 PC for the same money but the user experience with Apple is light years ahead of anything Wintel can offer. That is why I'll be buying a Mac. Even if I move to a new post which uses PCs I'll stick with a Mac at home - they really are so much better, regardless of speed.

So, I think Apple is (and should be) pushing the end user experience more than raw speed, which, lets face it, most people will never use.

Just my tuppence worth.

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by gaomay
Hi folks

This is my first post! I've just converted to Macs when I started my current post (during my PhD I used PCs - took a long time to write my thesis what with crashes and all!).

Anyway, to the point. I think the Mhz gap is important but that Apple has many other strengths. I intend to buy an eMac soon, and I don't care that it "only" has a 700Mhz G4 - yes, I could probably get a 2Ghz P4 PC for the same money but the user experience with Apple is light years ahead of anything Wintel can offer. That is why I'll be buying a Mac. Even if I move to a new post which uses PCs I'll stick with a Mac at home - they really are so much better, regardless of speed.

So, I think Apple is (and should be) pushing the end user experience more than raw speed, which, lets face it, most people will never use.

Just my tuppence worth.

Very well thought out and stated. Welcome to the forurms, and I have to agree with you. I would love to see Apple do commercials showing off OS X. Hopefully with Jaguar they will.

[Billicus]

Originally posted by Backtothemac


Do you think that they will not be serious Pentium Burning Machines? Patiently awaiting response.

Presicely what I was going to say to him. :rolleyes: