Financing a Computer [Archive]

SPG

Nov 17, 2001, 09:51 PM

Ok, the card was nice six months ago, but here's the problem if you're on a budget...$1000 !! and the realtime "preview" only works for three layers under certain conditions, not on Tuesdays, and won't do what you really want it to on any day that ends with the letter y.
The other reason of course, is that it will be obsolete in two weeks when FCP for OSX is released which should have near real time capabilities through background rendering.
Promax dropped their RT card just before production because of this same reason.
Get a DP500, a nice 19" monitor and a small TV set.

SPG

Nov 17, 2001, 10:00 PM

Oh yeah, intellimouse. Best $45 spent for editing bliss.

mymemory

Nov 18, 2001, 10:05 AM

I am a Full Sail graduate, I was in video editing too and I've been working in the field for 5 years now.

1. Bophonic, do not be such idiot and do not get a loan to get a TiBook for video editing. That is only showing how inexperienced you are.
How are you going to edit something in a 15” monitor if you need at list a good 17”?
Are you going to use the internal hard drive for uncompressed video?
With the same amount of money you can get a desktop with every single accessory.
Are you going to edit video in a plane too?

2. For video editing, specially if you are a student you may consider the low end Mac, with an extra hard drive and almost any video card like miro DC 30 plus or above, just because you are not going to do professional video editing in your dorm. You need the computer to practice editing, capture, use filters, etc. and you are going to end up using 320 X 240 at most just because the rendering time are going to drive you crazy.

You have to understand that after you graduate your computer is going to be discontinued and the most important reason is that before you edit anything for broadcast you need to work in a company with the professional equipment. That means that you may use your computer for experimenting and maybe to edit some ones else video, but forget about you are going to start your own company after graduation. Many students in my class spend lots of money buying even Silicon Graphics machines. They are inexperience as you are at the point. You need to know the business first and get the experience.

So, get a good computer (G4 450 may be), with a good extra drive (20GB is good), a 17” inch monitor (not LCD), some video card and at list 512 Ram (one per slot). Get After FX and Premiere if you want to. With that you are going to have hours to spend there. Then buy a video camera (not the $2000 Sony, get any may be with a digital out put, analog is good) and a VCR with a digital counter (doesn't have to be SVHS). And you are away above fine.

I was editing video with a beige G3 266, with 96MB Ram, 4 MB video Ram and internal 4 GB drive and a extra 9GB Barracuda with a miro DC 30. I started doing video for my friends of the college and presentations. At work I had an Avid and a Quantel edit box. Most of my friends at work had their video toaster working for free lancing.

Do not believe if some one from Avid or Marcromedia o Adobe comes to you to sell you the latest software. It is good but let some one else but the equipment, you just get the education, because is very sad one some kid comes to your office looking for job and he said “Oh, I only know PC’s” or “I used to work in a Flame at school”, later on you find them on the road using that old beige G3 or amazed with the video toaster.

Do not spend your money based on TV commercials; get an internship at list for a month in some video house.

jefhatfield

Nov 18, 2001, 11:02 AM

mymemory's advice on getting an internship (as a primary job after school) is a great idea...but still start your own business, but do it small at first, get the info you need from working for a company, see what applies to you and your current clients, and then, break off and be 100 percent self employed

this applies for college, junior college, graduate school, trade school, and high school

after business college, i did a four month internship for the federal government and learned what not to do

and after computer repair school, with microsoft networking emphasis, i interned with a couple a large IT departments for a few months before taking on my own clients, and more important than what i learned what to do, i learned what not to do...school and hands on will tell you what's right and you will already know most of the stuff you need to learn, but by working somewhere else, you will see the priorities of what's important day to day and see a routine you can memorize in a short time

...so by doing even a one month internship, you can learn most importantly what not to do (steve wozniak worked briefly at hewlett packard and saw the blindspots of a large company and this helped him build apple with steve jobs)

...but beware, and don't get too comfortable in an internship and make it a long term job because you may lose the fire for being self employed and thus lose objectivity and become mediocre and be one of those long term employees who say, "i will start a business one day, really, i just don't have the experience or know how yet"...we have all seen those people and they are like those 75 year old smokers who say they will get around to quitting someday

a good internship is kind of like stealing ideas but almost every founding ceo learned first somewhere else whether it was woz at hp,

...or red-haried, kinky-afro hippie paul orfela hanging out at mcdonald's and using the ideas from the counter space, time motion studies, polyester blend uniforms, and franchise setups to build his multimillion dollar "kinko's" empire (so named after his afro)

boston8man

Nov 18, 2001, 01:56 PM

Thanks for all the advice, yes I might be a student still but I've been working with Avid, Media 100 and FCP for a long time now. I make video sketches for my professional comedy/theatre troupe. We are Five member, two of which already have G4 Towers which we use at the current moment. The main purpose for the Ti would be because of traveling. And with Firewire, getting an external hard drive for my caputred media, makes my life a lot easier. Inexperience, trust me I'm not. Most of the Shorts we make are for our Sketch shows, and we take pride in our quality and creativity. Ti, for my purpose is the best bet. As an Artist you have to be able to get up and move to an new location on a moments notice, and the is my purpose. Unfortunatly being a college student credit card companies don't trust student with giving them a large enought loan for anything more then an imac or and ibook. imovie doesn't work for me, that would just be a major step back from where I currenlty am.

mymemory

Nov 18, 2001, 02:14 PM

All my knowledge comes from my personal experience. I was working free lancing since I got out college, specially because with the multi media degree I was allow to do lots of thing and I didn't want to get stuck in one. The problem was that people doesn't believe too much in freelancers, just because some of them are people that can not actually get a job any where. So because of that and the economic crisis in my country I decide to work in a company as a graphic designer. The good thing is that I'm basically project manager and I can deal directly with the client because of my experience. This company had 2 designers before me, I'm the only one now but I can manage the projects faster and I make a bit more than a graphic designer. The reason is that after almost 2 years I need the education and learn how my boss would deal with the client and approach the project. Every company does that in a different way, especially in web design. In my case I choose to have a paycheck at the end of the month rather than been hunting clients around, but that is the way the economy is around here.

Boston8man if you have the rest of the equipment go for the TiBook, but I would get a Pismo 500 instead, I have one and my eyes get wed when I used Photoshop or Illustrator at such hi speed in a portable that cost me just $1400 with 250Ram and a extra battery just 4 months ago.

[Edited by mymemory on 11-18-2001 at 03:17 PM]

SPG

Nov 18, 2001, 02:33 PM

mymymy, Have you you used your beloved Pismo to edit video on FCP? And I mean something more than a few clips with a cross dissolve.
I have and it SUCKED! Way too many dropped frames, creeping slow renders, tiny screen. We had to transfer the whole job to a G4 tower to be able to output to tape.

mymemory

Nov 18, 2001, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by SPG
mymymy, Have you you used your beloved Pismo to edit video on FCP? And I mean something more than a few clips with a cross dissolve.
I have and it SUCKED! Way too many dropped frames, creeping slow renders, tiny screen. We had to transfer the whole job to a G4 tower to be able to output to tape.

No, but that is because of the hard drive, that is gonna happend with any laptop I am sure, Boston8man said he is gonna use a fire wire drive, that is why I sugest him the Pismo.
If I could edit video in a Power Mac 9600/200 with 128Mb of ram, I can do it in a Pismo for sure, maybe (and I mean maybe ) with the internal hard drive wich is the weak point in the chain.
If you are gonna out put something from the Pismo be sure to use some good compresión (soreson may be), specially if you are not doing broadcast quality. I have seen people using miro DC 20 for TV!!!! (!!!=crazy people).

And if you read from top to botton my posts I wrote before you did what you are telling me. Forget about doing some serious After Effects rendering in any laptop. You are gonna run out of batteries before is done. But let me try doing some rendering just to try, right now my brother is using the Pismo for some video stuff actually, just a silly thing because he needs the video out put, but I am gonna play with it may be tomorrow.

Ps. I used Premiere

[Edited by mymemory on 11-18-2001 at 04:09 PM]

SPG

Nov 18, 2001, 03:04 PM

This was with an external firewire 7200rpm drive in a good enclosure.
What program were you using on the 9600? Not FCP without dropping frames.
Also when you mentioned editing in a smaller frame size like 360x240 shows that you're out of touch with current non linear editing. DV would have to be rendered down to that size or captured through a different device like a USB capture device. Both worthless options for actual video work, maybe useable for the web.
Bottom line is that the Pismo is a poor option for video editing. I know it can be done, but not nearly as well as on a tiBook or I'd bet even an iBook.

MasterX (OSiX)

Nov 18, 2001, 06:44 PM

Originally posted by SPG
This was with an external firewire 7200rpm drive in a good enclosure.
What program were you using on the 9600? Not FCP without dropping frames.
Also when you mentioned editing in a smaller frame size like 360x240 shows that you're out of touch with current non linear editing. DV would have to be rendered down to that size or captured through a different device like a USB capture device. Both worthless options for actual video work, maybe useable for the web.
Bottom line is that the Pismo is a poor option for video editing. I know it can be done, but not nearly as well as on a tiBook or I'd bet even an iBook.

Typically I like to just sit back and let ppl fight, but SPG you're REALLY pissing me off with your whole "$19,999 DV System or nothing" attitude. Mymemory was saying that whatever he uses will only be god for learning how to cut and edit. If you're in school it's not an issue of equipment but practice. He's saying that by editing in 360x240 you can quickly experiment and learn to be effective in your cuts. He's not saying to produce editorials for CNN using Sorenson and a 360x240 QT5 movie. And it seems to me that any system drops frames in FCP 1 or 2.

I end up using iMovie a lot more that I want, simply because I can do basic cuts and have simple projects done in record time. I'm learning to use a very nice Toaster system at my highschool, and I just edited a football game on my G4 in iMovie2, it took about 5 hours to edit the 2 hour game into a 5 minute film. The quality is made up in the number of cuts. Of course in the end, FCP2 will be used for anything pro, but as long as the cuts are simple and the objective is to learn, or produce somethign quicky, rendering small little projects in After Effects isn't gonna hurt anyone. Except you apparently. This kid is at some school where they probably have Powermacs and systems w/faster CPUs, more Ram, bigger RAIDs, and faster hardware rendering cards than you.

MasterX (OSiX)

Nov 18, 2001, 06:55 PM

And the funny thing about video is that in the end it's not what you used, but how you get there. For example, I did a movie where a lot of it was basic cuts so I used iMovie. But it also a lot of SFX, so I used FCP2 for green screening and transparencizing in 3D renders. Boston8mac says he knows what he's doing so I'll take his word for it. What he needs is some cash, not smart-assed ppl telling him what he "needs". If I edit something in FCP and someone else lives and dies by Premeir w/After Effects so be it.

For the record, if you're clever you can do a lot of cool stuff in either iMovie of FCP2.

boston8man

Nov 18, 2001, 07:01 PM

Back to the point. I'm not looking for a computer to just experiment on. I've done that already. imovie is great if you are into homevideos, but if you are really in control use FCP then burn a DVD with DVD Pro Studio. You have to understand that nowadays our generation has grown up with the computer chip and we pick this stuff up from an early age. It's the way it works. I can only expect that when I'm older they current middleschoolers that all have there imovies are going to be avid editors by the time they are in college, because they have grown up with the technology. I have done a good amount of editing using most of the major systems. SPG is right. Editing in 360x240 is pathetic if you need to project a movie on a large screen for an audience. If you can edit in 720X480 why not do so. And as far a rendering goes, once FCP for OSX comes out, real time editing and processing will happen more quickly.

jefhatfield

Nov 18, 2001, 10:11 PM

i was referring to usa self employment

i can't speak for the country of venezuela, but self employed people are trusted in the united states for the most part...that is, after all the backbone of our economy and corporations had to be started by some self employed visionary in the first place

sure there are people who can't work anywhere else so they get self employed, for a VERY SHORT time but if they are not good with people or incompetant at their job they are peddling to the masses, they are not going to get any clients or be able to pay rent or mortgage

many "employees" are just jealous of the self employed who make more (in the usa), have more control over their destiny, and don't have to suck up to supervisors who often don't know what they are talking about

work for a company for awhile, work for yourself awhile, and realize that not all people have what it takes discipline-wise to make it on their own

but i wish you luck in your business!

boston8man

Nov 19, 2001, 11:17 AM

Thanks for all the feedback, but what about this loan thing? Does anyone know of either credit card companies or other organizations that give low APR and a $5000 credit line to young consumers with limited credit history--with outstanding credit history, but limited? Apple Loan just didn't cut for me.

jefhatfield

Nov 19, 2001, 11:41 AM

one of my clients did his computer/equipment on stafford and my old boss did her expensive computer/equipment purchases on an sba loan

check into these...maybe your credit will prove worthy, and again i hope this helps and good luck!

SPG

Nov 19, 2001, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by MasterX (OSiX)

Typically I like to just sit back and let ppl fight, but SPG you're REALLY pissing me off with your whole "$19,999 DV System or nothing" attitude. Mymemory was saying that whatever he uses will only be god for learning how to cut and edit. If you're in school it's not an issue of equipment but practice. He's saying that by editing in 360x240 you can quickly experiment and learn to be effective in your cuts. He's not saying to produce editorials for CNN using Sorenson and a 360x240 QT5 movie. And it seems to me that any system drops frames in FCP 1 or 2.

I end up using iMovie a lot more that I want, simply because I can do basic cuts and have simple projects done in record time. I'm learning to use a very nice Toaster system at my highschool, and I just edited a football game on my G4 in iMovie2, it took about 5 hours to edit the 2 hour game into a 5 minute film. The quality is made up in the number of cuts. Of course in the end, FCP2 will be used for anything pro, but as long as the cuts are simple and the objective is to learn, or produce somethign quicky, rendering small little projects in After Effects isn't gonna hurt anyone. Except you apparently. This kid is at some school where they probably have Powermacs and systems w/faster CPUs, more Ram, bigger RAIDs, and faster hardware rendering cards than you. [/B]

Before you get too pissed off again, maybe you should look at what I wrote, and look at what else was written.
I did not advocate that someone just starrting out buy a DP800, but get a used DP500, that's not a $19,999 DV system last time I checked. Wait you did mean US Dollars and not Pesos or Lira, right? The only time I did argue against a more economical system was specifically against the Pismo since it has a very hard time handling FCP, and the Matrox card since it will be obsolete in a very short time (being replaced by improved software).
I never said that you need to have the absolute best system, but for very specific needs that were mentioned I made a very specific recomendation and pointed out the shortcomings of someone else's ill informed recommendation.
I am glad that you can use iMovie and it fulfills your needs, but If you look further up I even made the comment "Hell, some of the best stuff I've seen recently was shot on super8 and spliced by hand. Who needsa computer at all!" Although being flip, it was meant to point out that you do not need the best tools to create the best work. My specific equipment comments were mostly replies to discussing the best tools for the job.
I am sorry for pissing you off Mister Oh I Sux, well maybe I'm not sorry...****
Love, -SPG

SPG

Nov 19, 2001, 12:06 PM

Back to the topic...
If you're really having trouble getting a loan, and it's only for the tiBook maybe you should look to the Bank of Mom & Dad, I hear the interest rates are well below prime this time of year.
Seriously, you should look into borrowing from your family if all else fails. Then again that might make you take a good hard look at exactly what you really need.

MasterX (OSiX)

Nov 19, 2001, 03:48 PM

I'll admit $19,999 is an exaggeration. But let's see:
1) "I did not advocate that someone just starrting out buy a DP800, but get a used DP500"

Well he said that he's not a novice about 3 times so far so I'll have to go on that.

2) "get a used DP500, that's not a $19,999 DV system last time I checked"

If you add legit software and beef up the hardware w/a Cinema Display it's around $10,000 tops. Like I said I was exaggerating I apologize.

3) Wait you did mean US Dollars and not Pesos or Lira, right?"

US Dollars in the year 2001

4) The only time I did argue against a more economical system was specifically against the Pismo since it has a very hard time handling FCP, and the Matrox card since it will be obsolete in a very short time (being replaced by improved software)."

I agree a laptop can't be seriously used for editing, especially a pismo. Boston8mac said he had enough desktops and want the TiBook BECAUSE it's mobile.

But if you think FCP for OSX will replace a hardware rendering device (like a RT Matrox) you're sadly mistaken. I expect FCPX to be brought up to the speed of iMovie, which is basically real time (and 30fps) text, audio effects, and speed control. Not rendering, not transparency, not effects.

5) "I am glad that you can use iMovie and it fulfills your needs"

"I end up using iMovie a lot more that I want, simply because I can do basic cuts and have simple projects done in record time." Not marking in and out saves a lot of time. My instructor just mentioned how awesome iMovie was today, because of it's easy learning curve, and of course, unmatched efficiency. Don't diss my instructor, he's one insane Cisco engineer. iMovie is a few steps up from hand splicing, so I don't see why it gets so much bad-mouthing.

6) "I am sorry for pissing you off Mister Oh I Sux, well maybe I'm not sorry...****"

The only comment you made that pissed me off is that iMovie fits my needs, which it does most of the time. But remember that if Apple added color-keying, transparency, overlays, better file management, more text controls, and "PIP" it would be a simple way of doing practically EVERYTHING most people need to edit. That's only 6 things, NO **** YOU HAVE MORE IN MIND, I'm sure I forgot something obvious like programmable effects, and a more professional GUI but screw you.

SPG

Nov 19, 2001, 05:38 PM

Okay, I'm glad we agree on those things, and I am sorry about the last part but I felt as though your post was an undeserved attack. I'll disregard the "screw you" at the end of your most recent post.

BTW, If you add all the features you menioned to iMovie it won't have that learning curve. Also have you ever used a linear tape to tape editor? It sounds like you could do a lot of what you want with one of those, sometimes I wish I still had one here for simpler jobs.

MasterX (OSiX)

Nov 19, 2001, 07:00 PM

Well on an underground rumors site a "screw you" in reply to a **** is not that bad. What I'm trying to say was that iMovie is a lot closer to pro level than people give it credit for.

I'm learning to use an Amega-VideoToaster in school, using the basic hardware I think it's considered a linear editing workstation. It's a nice setup, I'l try and get a picture of it sometime: 3 cameras, an old Apple IIc Teleprompter, and the Amega (which is connected to 3 VHS decks, and pleantly of monitors/hardware). Our teacher is working on upgrading our schools ****** Dells (500Mhz) with a GeForce2, a FireWire I/O device, more ram/disks, and a dual P3 MoBo. Of course I'd take the experimental Dual-700Mhz Amega over that POS Dell mod running Premier any day.

mymemory

Nov 19, 2001, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by jefhatfield
i was referring to usa self employment

My comment was just a general culture kind of thing.
I wish I could be a free lancer in the US. The difference down here right now is that people doesn't have any money, so the better way to have money at the end of the month is to be part of a company. I make less but I have the cash to pay the bills. That is just a matter of circunstances.

The other scenario may be if you are about to have your family, you may need a secure income un less you have your own company with your bunch of clients.

But freelancing is so good in the US, I may be moving next year, may be to Miami because I may get my greencard finally!!!!!!!

jefhatfield

Nov 19, 2001, 10:13 PM

i hope you enjoy america, because of all the things we americans complain about, freelancing isn't one of them

miami is a good place as is any large american city because it is harder in a rural area, like where i live south of san jose, but not impossible

SPG

Nov 20, 2001, 11:10 AM

Hey Jef, One more tech boom and your area won't be rural anymore. Even without another boom it won't be rural for too much longer.

jefhatfield

Nov 20, 2001, 01:19 PM

we who live here are hard core inbreeding joe dirt rednecks and any over-building here would literally be met by shotguns

i am not kidding and i keep a low profile being a minority

one of my best workers in my other landscaping business finally confessed to me that he belonged to the KKK and told me about the rural redneck roots of monterey county...you have to be born here 4 decades ago like me to even begin to understand the dynamics of the anti-yuppie mentality here and the impossibility to make monterey county a part of the five county silicon valley...one of my female friends' parents are brother and sister...OK... need i say more

the taliban has a better chance of setting up shop in monterey before a bay area, college educated, chardonnay sipping, gore loving, yuppie will ever make an IT company here

jeff foxworthy is one of us...ok

...by the way, i voted for gore but i keep that quiet for obvious reasons (and i am sipping a chardonnay as i type this post, really!)

SPG

Nov 20, 2001, 03:23 PM

Not to say there won't be resistance, but one redneck at a time being handed a million dollars is how it happens. Slowly the condos start popping up and before you know it you can't afford to live in the house where you were born. I've seen it and it's disgusting the power of money.

jefhatfield

Nov 20, 2001, 04:12 PM

too much money made in agriculture here, calif's number one industry by far

too many steep mountains, not flat like san jose and the silicon valley region

a good livestock industry

and a general hatred of yuppies

and most of all, an intense fear of technology

believe me, this county has tried to have been bought and if the hillbillies don't stop the growth, the environmentalists will with their agendas

not to mention the mayflower brigade who are old money and they are not ready to have theri 23 golf courses like pebble beach ripped out so bill gates could build xboxes here

the day monterey county will enter the 21st century will be the day the giants win back to back world series' against the yankees...it simply will not happen...just visit here, give me a line, and i will take you on the rural tour

at least we have running water even though you can get sick from it if you drink it...you are better off drinking the lead mercury solder water of silicon valley

[Edited by jefhatfield on 11-20-2001 at 05:16 PM]

jefhatfield

Nov 20, 2001, 04:38 PM

flatter, chaper, and more practical areas of modern growth in california still are greater la and the bay area

outside of that,

fresno, bakersfield, rest of central valley, sacramento, and out of state in nevada and arizona

monterey county got forever doomed in 1994 when the major army fort was moved out

i still like being a techie here since i liken myself to that country doctor on northern exposure, i am rare and i provide a service since all of my techie friends moved a hour north to silicon valley where they make the real money...though not like they did in the dot.com heyday...we are back to 2,600 companies but swelled to 20,000 or so during the internet thing