US cars versus European/Japense Imports

[carbonmotion]

I've been driving a leased US VW Jetta VR6 for two years...I used to drive a leased Golf GTI two years ago before the lease ran out. I think it's really less about quality issue between american cars and external competiters because both my Jetta has had no issues in the toll of two years while the Golf GTI was a POS. If it were not for the warenty I would be poor right now.

I think we should judge each car by their quality record recorded by consumer agencies that do such things ...only then will people realize that forigen car companies only have a good reputation, in reality their build quality varie from model to model just like their cars.

Personally I bought VWs because I think they look great and feels great to me... and I can appreciate the artistic way that they are crafted. For $26,230, I only got a 2.8 liter 200hp VR6 engine...which gets around 21mpg locally (european cars are overated in their gas frugality). In fact I think I'm going back to american made cars when my lease comes up (in 8 month) because in two years time american automakers have realized the need for adding style in to their design and have accomplished such. There is no way im going to lease another VW because they are definately not worth they money you pay for. The new Jetta VR 6 does not wow me, in fact it feels like anyother car and the interior that looked good in 2002 when comparabed to american car interiors of that time, but now there are so many better options for a more reasonable price. The next lease that I will get will most probably be the Mazada 6s ...for a little less 25,000 I could lease a car with a 220 hp engine and a damn better looking exterior and interior -not the same plain jane VW Jetta interior (they aren't fooling anyone with those new visual cue...) Or a turbo charged Saab 9-3 Aero for only $21,000 (my dad gets A-Plan Discount because he works at GM)

Do you guys have anyother Great US cars to recommend? I was tricked by the rice culture propaganda in highschool in to buying a euro car along with many of my friends who also bought japense or european cars before realizing that you're not getting more for the same money. Infact the quality is the same on some models, better on some and inferior on others when compared to american cars. So, recommendations anyone?

[krossfyter]

no real recommendations sorry.

but i do stand behind the toyota tt mkIV supra... and its not because of FF... i was doing so before.




hope you find the american car you are looking for.


maybe.. the new mustang would be a recommendation?

[carbonmotion]

maybe.. the new mustang would be a recommendation? [/B]

I don't like sports cars, but even if I did, mustangs are ugly and the build quality is very poor. If I were in the market for a sports car I would probably get a Pontiac GTO or a 2005 Mustang. But I haul friends and equipment around way too much to be a satisfied with a 2-door coupe. Actually, I even considered buying a small SUV like a Land Rover Freelander/Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute but they're not gas efficent (17/21 Local/Highway) and the thought of doing that much damage to the enviroment killed the idea immediately.

[carbonmotion]

Oops, I suck I didnt see the word "new" in your post... Sorry man... forgive my incompetance.

[krossfyter]

no problem man.

so basically you had a sports car and now you are not into that any more. so this is important in trying to recommend an american car for you.

you said that in the next lease you are going to get a mazda 6? im confused with that stamement... since you are looking for an american non sports car.

[carbonmotion]

Originally posted by krossfyter
no problem man.

so basically you had a sports car and now you are not into that any more. so this is important in trying to recommend an american car for you.

you said that in the next lease you are going to get a mazda 6? im confused with that stamement... since you are looking for an american non sports car.

um... Jetta isnt a sports car. I used to own a GTI but that was in high school The car I have now is a 4dr Jetta VR6. I dont want a car like the mustang or the GTO because they lacked the back seats for my things/friends and the insurance for a 19 year old with a mustang is atrocious. Um yeah i consider Mazada 6 to be a sedan

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by carbonmotion

I was tricked by the rice culture propaganda in highschool

"the rice culture"??

does not compute

[pseudobrit]

I'm stickin' to VW but I'm a TDI man.

Try getting 50mpg for a year. I did and I can't go back now, so the only choices for me are VW TDIs or hybrids.

And seeing how hybrids are gutless wheezing battery-laden trouble from the word "go," you can guess what I'm staying with.

Maybe if Ford would release the Focus TDCi I'd switch.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
"the rice culture"??

does not compute

http://www.riceboypage.com/

[Opteron]

GM (Chevie/Holden's) engine technology is stuck back in the late 70's early, 80's. The Holden Commodore (their family car in Australia) is the only 12 valve pushrod V6 on the Australian market. There V8 is also suffering from "low tech" using a 350 cu/in push rod V8. Ford now offers a 5.4 L Quad cam, and a DOC4.0L straight 6, both of which are far superior to what GM is ofering in Australia.

However the real technology is in Japan. Turbos, 8,000RPM red lines, Rotors (Rx-8)

Europe Has the WRC, and the Super car makers, using cutting edge tech.

And the US is stuck with "LOW Tech push rods"

If you want an economical car get a Citreon Xeara, Peguet 206, Mitsubishi Lancia, Subaru Impreza. These are all cars that have seen much development due to there use in the WRC.

Also a nissan Pulsa, or a Madaz (mazda) 2 or 3 would be a great car.

[krossfyter]

Originally posted by carbonmotion
um... Jetta isnt a sports car. I used to own a GTI but that was in high school The car I have now is a 4dr Jetta VR6. I dont want a car like the mustang or the GTO because they lacked the back seats for my things/friends and the insurance for a 19 year old with a mustang is atrocious. Um yeah i consider Mazada 6 to be a sedan


jetta isnt a sports car? how you figure?

your going for a mazda yet you dont want a jap car? i dont get it.

sorry.

[carbonmotion]

[i]If you want an economical car get a Citreon Xeara, Peguet 206, Mitsubishi Lancia, Subaru Impreza. [/B]

Um, we have the Mitsubishi Lancia and Subaru Impreza...those cars are for guys who like to rice stuff. I shop at express for crying out loud... ideally I'd lease a Caddy CTS (best car ever made, beats Mercede's pants off) but my job doesn't pay "that" much even with my dad's special incentive lease plan. We dont get Citreon Xeara and Peguet 206 here. and wait... All alumium pushrod v8s are sweet as hell, so I dont know what you're talking about... its not technologically behind, its just a different design philosophy. Alot of German/Japanese cars are turbo charged to make them comparable to American horsepower...this means the car will have to be treated with care ...like premium fuel and synthetic oil changes... and the turbos will last around 100k miles before dying... so, if you drive the car for 5 years, you're basically going to be garenteed to be in need of a big service...where as I can drive a pushrod for 5 years and never amount to kind of a gigantic maintance costs. besides, just look at the 05 Corevette, it runs on the LS2 which was appluaded by motor trend as the best engine every built in that price range. So please do not insult the technical advancements of the american auto industry.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by krossfyter
jetta isnt a sports car? how you figure?

No way are the Jetta or GTI sports cars. Sports cars:

BMW Z4
MB SLK
Mazda Miata
Porsche Boxster
Porsche 911 series
Lamborghini Murcielago
Lamborghini Gallardo
Acura NSX
Nissan Z
Ford GT40
Jaguar XK
(maybe) Ford Mustang
Ferrari 360
Ferrari 550, or anything else wearing the Cavallino Rampante
Chevrolet Corvette
Dodge Viper


Even some of these are a little suspect; the line between sports car and Grand Touring is easy to blur. Audi TT is certainly a GT, Nissan Z is, well... kinda borderline.

It's like porn and obscenity. You can't define it but you know it when you see it. Name a car and I can tell you what category it's in.

your going for a mazda yet you dont want a jap car? i dont get it.

sorry.

Technically it's a Ford ;)

[carbonmotion]

Originally posted by krossfyter
jetta isnt a sports car? how you figure?

your going for a mazda yet you dont want a jap car? i dont get it.

sorry.

the Mazada 6 was designed in California and manufactured in Tennesse and is owned by Ford Motors. My uncle was transferred from the Ford 500 design team to the Mazda 6 design team in Cali to head up the pre-production quality control tests... All the up comming ford cars, the Ford 500 and the Mercury Sentinel will use the chassis of the Mazda 6. It is called Ford's Universial Chassis System.

[jelloshotsrule]

i like to rice stuff for sure

but then that cheesy bean and rice burrito was only temporary at taco bell. sucks! burrito just isn't as good without the rice

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by carbonmotion
Alot of German/Japanese cars are turbo charged to make them comparable to American horsepower...this means the car will have to be treated with care ...like premium fuel and synthetic oil changes... and the turbos will last around 100k miles before dying... so, if you drive the car for 5 years, you're basically going to be garenteed to be in need of a big service...where as I can drive a pushrod for 5 years and never amount to kind of a gigantic maintance costs.

IIRC, the F body was one of Consumer Report's most warned against vehicles for engine problems.

My TDI is turbo'd and does take synthetic oil (Mobil Delvac 1 -- I do the changes myself) but only needs serviced every 10,000 miles, and the oil is clean for much longer (it's been tested clean at 20k) and folks have gone well over 200,000 without blowing the turbo. Plus the fuel tends to be pretty cheap most times of the year. Not like I care when I only fill up once every other week.

[carbonmotion]

Originally posted by pseudobrit
IIRC, the F body was one of Consumer Report's most warned against vehicles for engine problems.

Did not come across it, I'll look into it. The old Corvette engine (LS1) was good as hell.

My TDI is turbo'd and does take synthetic oil (Mobil Delvac 1 -- I do the changes myself) but only needs serviced every 10,000 miles, and the oil is clean for much longer (it's been tested clean at 20k) and folks have gone well over 200,000 without blowing the turbo. Plus the fuel tends to be pretty cheap most times of the year. Not like I care when I only fill up once every other week.

Um..TDI are anemic... like less then 100 hourspowers? 0-60mph in 10+ seconds? I'd rather spend a little more gas to feel less annoyed on highways.

and Diesel is a big pulloter , much more so then Gasoline.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by carbonmotion
Um..TDI are anemic... like less then 100 hourspowers? 0-60mph in 10+ seconds? I'd rather spend a little more gas to feel less annoyed on highways.

90hp, 150ft/lb at the wheel all available from 1900 rpm. The torque curve on this thing is amazing. It matches just about every car in its class stoplight to stoplight, accelerates very well on the highway, will cruise at 110mph for roughly 600 miles nonstop (when you need to refuel).

And "spend a little more" on gas is no way indicitive of the situation. I drive to Pittsburgh on the occasional Saturday (about 460 miles round trip) and last time I had a 2.0l Jetta loaner (the thriftiest gas burner) and was pissed at having to fill up twice during my trip. Usually I can go there and back and still have enough fuel to last until Thursday or so. THAT's performance.

And it was no quicker than my TDI, either. But it was louder at cruising speed (the gearing on the TDI is much lower, so the engine isn't droning at 3500rpm on the bypass)

and Diesel is a big pulloter , much more so then Gasoline.

Not true. Modern diesels are cleaner in most every respect. It mostly depends on the quality of the fuel. Once ULSD is available here and particulate filters become the norm on diesels, there's no reasons not to consider one.

[carbonmotion]

Originally posted by pseudobrit
90hp, 150ft/lb at the wheel all available from 1900 rpm. The torque curve on this thing is amazing. It matches just about every car in its class stoplight to stoplight, accelerates very well on the highway, will cruise at 110mph for roughly 600 miles nonstop (when you need to refuel).

And "spend a little more" on gas is no way indicitive of the situation. I drive to Pittsburgh on the occasional Saturday (about 460 miles round trip) and last time I had a 2.0l Jetta loaner (the thriftiest gas burner) and was pissed at having to fill up twice during my trip. Usually I can go there and back and still have enough fuel to last until Thursday or so. THAT's performance.

And it was no quicker than my TDI, either. But it was louder at cruising speed (the gearing on the TDI is much lower, so the engine isn't droning at 3500rpm on the bypass)



Not true. Modern diesels are cleaner in most every respect. It mostly depends on the quality of the fuel. Once ULSD is available here and particulate filters become the norm on diesels, there's no reasons not to consider one.

1 There are no 2.0L jJettas... 1.8T or the VR6...neither are 2liters. My friend has a TDI and while it feels ok ...the acceleration is just so bad 0-60 in like 10-12 seconds. With my VR6, the road noise was unacceptable, the shocks were too stiff and the steering was somewhat overly sensitive. The body looks ok, but i hasent really changed much for years... over all for 25 grand i kinda expect more. But yeah, the TDI is cool if your claims of low pullution is true. I dunno, i want an american though... i dont know why i'm feeling this way, being a liberal and all ...I mean my friend jokes that if I keep going down this "american" car path I will end up with a F250 with a big confederate flag on the hood.... I don't think that will happen... I just think that now that america is finally making competative quality cars, I should support my country's innovations and try to disregard the "forgien is better false paradigm"

[jeffy.dee-lux]

hahaha, i like how that guy who made the list of sports cars included the mazda miata and said maybe to the mustang...
the current mustang (if you haven't yet, check out the 2005 model) can be bought with up to 390 hp for less than the price of a corvette. The new mustang gt comes with 300hp for about $25K. To me, that's a nicely accessible sports car.
The miata is accessible and cute, but comes with i think 140hp, which even for a car that small, ain't really that much, at least not to get it onto a list with by my count 7 400+hp cars. But I think mazdaspeed is finally gettin their hands on this little guy, so maybe things'll change.

and don't say gt40 or you'll get sued by some company in cincinatti.... ford was gonna name their 500hp remake of the lemans dominating racer the gt40, like the original, but would've had to pay this company $40M for the name that just didn't get trademarked back in the 60s. so now its just the ford GT.

Anyways, as far as non sports cars go.... that mazda6 is really well regarded by automotive journalists, i've read really good reviews, and it really does look great. If you want a true american car (ford only owns 33% of mazda), ford, as someone said, is gonna be building a couple cars off of that platform, as well as the volvo s80/xc90 platform. The futura, based on the 6, should be showin up at some auto show or another this year, coming out for sale some time next year.

oh yeah, and if you're into the escape/tribute/freelander, there's gonna be a 40mpg hybrid version of the escape, getting equal performance to the v6 model. That's coming out later this year i think. And toyota;s making a hybrid highlander too, this thing'll get about 40hp more than the current model, while also getting better mileage. Hybrid cars don't necessarily have to be associated with a compromise in performance. Electric motors get crazy low end torque, the new prius gets 295lb-ft at just over 0rpm, making for great acceleration off the line. But wait, american, right, i got side tracked....
The ford freestyle coming out in the fall is pretty cool, wagon/suv crossover type thing, a bit bigger than the escape.

GM's just pumped out a bunch of new models, but i don't really go for any of them, they're all pretty ugly in my eye, except of course the corvette, and maybe the GTO. The cobalt, the cavalier replacement looks alright, haven't heard anything about it though. The ford focus is getting a bit of a makeover, including improvement of the interior build quality and so forth.
Chrysler's new 300C/dodge magnum thing is pretty interesting, nice to get back to RWD, but these things are quite boxey.
I've always prefered ford just cause that's what i grew up with (yeah crown vic wagon! 5.0 v8!), but now i can honestly say i'm not very impressed with either GM or chrysler, well, with the cars anyways, although dodge really did mangle the durango and dakota in my opinion...
Personally, i'd wait to see what this futura thing is gonna be like, looks like it could be something good, especially after hearing so much good about the mazda6. My dream car, however, would be a 2005 mustang gt with a huge electric motor and battery sitting in the backseat to compliment the 300hp V8, recapture some of that braking energy and cut down on idling and so forth. Maybe i can get toyota and ford to team up and pop one of them synergy drive systems in there. I've always loved the mustang, but could never justify having one myself, i like my fresh air too much.

[jeffy.dee-lux]

Originally posted by carbonmotion
the Mazada 6 was designed in California and manufactured in Tennesse and is owned by Ford Motors. My uncle was transferred from the Ford 500 design team to the Mazda 6 design team in Cali to head up the pre-production quality control tests... All the up comming ford cars, the Ford 500 and the Mercury Sentinel will use the chassis of the Mazda 6. It is called Ford's Universial Chassis System.

The ford 500 and mercury (montego i think you mean) are based on the volvo s80 platform. The futura and the just recently named mercury montclair will be based on the 6. Both these models are supposedly gonna be introduced at the new york auto show in april.

[jeffy.dee-lux]

ooh, sweet, k, i swear this is my last post. but i just read that the futura will eventually get the same hybrid drive system that's going into the escape. That should be pretty sweet.

http://www.edmunds.com/news/autoshows/articles/96999/page004.html

Go Captain Planet!

[jeffy.dee-lux]

ok ok, THIS'll be the last one. It's just cause i noticed that that last link seems to contradict what i was saying about the 500/montego being based on the volvo s80 and not the mazda6.

well this link
http://www.nctd.com/sneakpreview.cfm?ReviewID=47
and this month's motor trend both say the 500/montego and the freestyle are based on the volvo developed P2 platform upon which both the s80 and xc90 are built. So i'm guessin that first link is either outdated or just plain wrong.... or maybe these are all just variations on the same platform. Either way, the mazda6 and the volvo s80 are both really good cars, so i think ford's in business.

[Counterfit]

Originally posted by carbonmotion
Um, we have the Mitsubishi Lancia and Subaru Impreza...those cars are for guys who like to rice stuff.
Not necessarily. The Mitsubishi Lancer (Lancia was a Italian company that also did WRC back in the day. Ever hear of the Stratos?) is a decent car by itself, and if you go for the Evo, get ready for some fun :cool:. As for the Impreza, that's also quite a fun car to drive, the WRX probably a bit more, and the STi, well, it can go head to head with the Evo :)
ideally I'd lease a Caddy CTS (best car ever made, beats Mercede's pants off) Best car ever made? I'd like to know what you based that on :rolleyes:
We dont get Citreon Xeara and Peguet 206 here.You're right, it's very hard to get new Citroëns and Puegots in the US.
its not technologically behind, its just a different design philosophy. Each design has its strengths. Pushrods allow for a lower hood for front engined cars, but I have yet to see a pushrod engine with a variable valve timing system.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by carbonmotion
1 There are no 2.0L jJettas... 1.8T or the VR6...neither are 2liters.

You're wrong.

Sorry, but I know my VWs. Look it up; I'm right.

My friend has a TDI and while it feels ok ...the acceleration is just so bad 0-60 in like 10-12 seconds. [/b]

Usually whoever I get stuck behind while merging from an onramp doesn't accelerate as fast as I do/can. As I said, acceleration feels the same with the base 2.0 motor.

With my VR6, the road noise was unacceptable, the shocks were too stiff and the steering was somewhat overly sensitive. The body looks ok, but i hasent really changed much for years... over all for 25 grand i kinda expect more.

You bought a premium sporty compact car with the only available V6 in its class. You can always talk the price down. I did for my car.

It hasn't changed much for years because its at the end of its product cycle. The New Jettas ("A5" chassis) should be out later this year. The New Golf is already being built.

But yeah, the TDI is cool if your claims of low pullution is true.

Half the greenhouse gas emissions is no joke. And it's getting better every year when the fuel's up to snuff. There's a 150BHP (near 300ft/lb torque IIRC) version of the TDI out in Europe. It'd embarass your VR6 and still return 40+mpg.

There's nothing quite like getting 600 miles out of a 14 gallon tank -- that's how I measure performance right now. With fuel prices not coming down ever again to 1998 levels, I'm just not keen on driving a car that can't return more than 40mpg.

I dunno, i want an american though... i dont know why i'm feeling this way, being a liberal and all ... I just think that now that america is finally making competative quality cars, I should support my country's innovations and try to disregard the "forgien is better false paradigm"

I don't worry about who makes the car. Regardless of where final assembly is, the parts and components come from around the globe. Your car was built in Mexico, for example. Mine was built in Brasil, while the engine came from Germany and the transmission from Argentina. My '94 Jetta was built in Mexico from a good percentage of US- and Canadian-made parts.

We truly live in a world market where Toyotas, Mazdas and Hondas are built in the US, Chevys are built in Canada, Fords are designed in England and built in Mexico and Cadillacs are designed and built in Germany.

Again, don't worry about who makes it or where it's "made," just worry about who's giving you the best bang for your buck.

Don't subsidise mediocrity.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by jeffy.dee-lux
hahaha, i like how that guy who made the list of sports cars included the mazda miata and said maybe to the mustang...
the current mustang (if you haven't yet, check out the 2005 model) can be bought with up to 390 hp for less than the price of a corvette. The new mustang gt comes with 300hp for about $25K. To me, that's a nicely accessible sports car.

To me, that's a nicely accessible Gran Touring car. I can't include muscle cars in with sports cars, and the Miata is certainly a sports car.

It's not all about power, you know. I don't include the BMW M3. That's got 400hp. But it's a sports coupe, not a sports car.

and don't say gt40 or you'll get sued by some company in cincinatti.... ford was gonna name their 500hp remake of the lemans dominating racer the gt40, like the original, but would've had to pay this company $40M for the name that just didn't get trademarked back in the 60s. so now its just the ford GT.

Yeah, I know about that little flap, but it's still a GT40 to me. :)

[iGav]

Originally posted by pseudobrit
And it's getting better every year when the fuel's up to snuff. There's a 150BHP (near 300ft/lb torque IIRC) version of the TDI out in Europe. It'd embarass your VR6 and still return 40+mpg.

the VW PD 150 is abit of a corker... not only will it demolish a VR6 it'll also take out a Porsche Boxster 2.7 in, in-gear acceleration as well... a couple of seconds between 50-70 ;)

[jeffy.dee-lux]

Originally posted by pseudobrit
To me, that's a nicely accessible Gran Touring car. I can't include muscle cars in with sports cars, and the Miata is certainly a sports car.

It's not all about power, you know. I don't include the BMW M3. That's got 400hp. But it's a sports coupe, not a sports car.



yeah, cool, i guess these are all just definitions that don't really matter in the end. A car is what it is, no matter what you call it.


Yeah, I know about that little flap, but it's still a GT40 to me. :)

nice, way to stick it to them. I hope all of you have seen the add that played just before the superbowl....
http://www.fordvehicles.com/fordgt/home.asp?bhcp=1
there is an example of an american car that's just plain better than just about anything coming out of europe. In fact, if you want a faster car than the gt, you've gotta go up to cars like the $650K enzo or the $440K porsche carrera GT. The GT40 blows away cars like the ferrari 360, even the 575, the porsche gt2, cars which are all more expensive than the $140K GT. Even the $450K MB SLR is a couple ticks slower to 60 than the GT.

I know its not all about speed though. The viper is just a bit slower than the GT for even cheaper, for example. Or you can put $50K or so into an R32 golf at HPA motorsports and get a car that's faster than anything i've mentioned, including the enzo. But i guess people spending several hundred thousand dollars on a car are looking for a fair deal of sophistication as well.

To me, the gt40 seems pretty darn sophisticated though. Its got a really high tech aluminum frame, a pretty schnazy interior, and a sweet engine. At least they didn't have to cram an 8.3L engine in there to get that kind of performance.
This car really shows that american companies have the ability to make really good cars at very competitive prices.

Now someone tell me why i'm writing all this from my snowy home in montreal, canada....

[m4rc]

I can't see why Ford are making so few of the GT. Seems like a bargain, yet there are none available anymore.

[iJon]

well i drive lots of current cars now. i used to have an acura legend and an acura tl and they were great cars, personally i dont think you can beat a honda or acura in quality, or any japanese car for that matter. i drive my mom's bmw but i hate it. i know not all bmws have problems like my mom's but bmw's are known for the lack of quality, compared to the japanese cars. its handles extremly well and fun to drive but has its problems. i drove my dad's jeep wrangler so much that i wanted a liberty and i love it. such a smooth ride, even when offroading, don't know if your into that at all. if i was you i would take a look at the new honda accords, of if you want something more take a look at the acura tsx (its a 4 banger though) or if you have the cash to spend get youself the new 2004 acura tl. fast as hell and probably the best sound system stock you will hear in a car, also has bluetooth.

iJon

[Counterfit]

Originally posted by iJon
but bmw's are known for the lack of quality, Um, what? :confused:

[iJon]

Originally posted by Counterfit
Um, what? :confused: well look in consumer reports, also from my experiences. my mom's bmw has problems all the time. my ex girlfriends mom's 7 series had tons of problems as well. i know they dont account for every bmw out there. but lately they have been lacking in reliability in my opinion compared to the japanese car companies. also lately i have seen more 7 series for sale then being bought. its like a mac and pc argument. someone who had a bad experience witha mac probably wont bu another one. i just know im not the only who realizes these things with bmw, its all opinions though.

iJon

[jefhatfield]

when i grew up as a kid, we had a corvair and a ford station wagon...they seemed to work just fine but that was in the 60s and early 70s

but starting in 1974, my parents, my brother, and i have had japanese and european cars because they are better...america's heyday of the 20s, 30s, 40s,50s, 60s, and 70s is over and it's sad to see

our corvair was candy apple red and one of the sexiest looking machines on the road...i know this car had some problems with steering control and would spin out at high speeds, but it still had that amazing vibe that american cars of that time had like the mustang, thunderbird, and corvette

and the american made utility trucks of the 40s and 50s made then are so cool and today's trucks made in america don't have the same attention to design

and who can forget the 57 chevy...that is perhaps the most famous automobile of all time

perhaps one day america can start making legendary cars again...the pt cruiser came close and i actually got to ride in one and the vibe and ride on the inside is just as cool as the outside...i also think the H2 is a great looking vehicle but i have not been in one so i can't really say how good this vehicle is

i had a friend who bought an original hummer and while this thing turned a lot of heads, it was always breaking down and he just ended up getting rid of the thing...it is not made to be driven every day, year after year but excels in short hard stints in desert warfare for which it was designed...i hope the designers of the H2 corrected their vehicle to fit a long term, paved driving approach

[whocares]

Originally posted by carbonmotion

(...)$26,230, I only got a 2.8 liter 200hp VR6 engine...which gets around 21mpg locally (european cars are overated in their gas frugality).
(...)

That's because we don't use the same engines in Europe! We do have them same ones, but we just seldom buy them ;)

A Golf TDi would probably be giving you something like 45mpg... The most economical cars (small TDi engines on small cars) will let you do around 60mpg. So no, I don't think European cars are overrated on their frugality :p

[whocares]

Originally posted by carbonmotion
Um..TDI are anemic... like less then 100 hourspowers? 0-60mph in 10+ seconds? I'd rather spend a little more gas to feel less annoyed on highways.

and Diesel is a big pulloter , much more so then Gasoline.

Not quite true. Modern turbocharged direct injection diesel engines are becoming really fun to drive and are catching up with petrol (gasoline ;) ) engines. The latest Peugeot (note correct spelling) 206 HDi will accelerate from 40mph to 60mph *faster* than the GTi version of its predecessor (the 205). And the 205 GTi is one of the all time best French sports cars.

And about pollution, it all depends on what you define as pollution... Modern diesel engines are more economical than petrol engines and let out less C02; so in that sense, they pollute less. The do however let out more NOx... The big problem with diesel engines is the old ones still around that really polute big time...

[m4rc]

_This is taken from Auto Express, in an article about the VW Phaeton TDi, just in case anyone thought Diesels had to be slow.

Check out these statistics: two turbos, 308bhp and a whopping 750Nm of torque. Only Bentley's Arnage and the Mercedes S600 can offer more pulling power. But this Phaeton isn't a gas-guzzling petrol-engined machine - it's a diesel.

Powered by a 5.0-litre V10 TDI, the VW flagship is the world's fastest production oil-burner. It channels its huge thrust to the road via a standard-fit six-speed auto gearbox and 4Motion four-wheel drive, combining a limited top speed of 155mph with a 6.9-second 0-62mph time. And the most impressive figure? An average of 24.7mpg.

Yet no matter how good the statistics look on paper, on-the-road performance actually feels even faster. From idle speed upwards the V10 gives massive acceleration. As with all diesels, it does not 'live to rev', and there is little point venturing beyond the 3,750rpm peak power point. But the smooth box's tall gearing makes for supremely relaxing cruising - 80mph equates to only 1,900rpm. Oil-burners are never as quiet as petrol units, but although noticeable, the V10's sound is pleasant - a sort of gruff rumble under acceleration, fading to near silence when cruising.

Ok, hardly your average road car, but then neither is the Ford GT. Diesels have the plus points - Torque being the main one. The average TDi will out pull, or out accelerate many bigger thoretically faster cars. This is most useful with mid range rapid acceleration, or overtaking.

[pseudobrit]

We'll see a V10 TDI stateside in the Touareg very soon.

What's the GT40 selling for? $150k? I'd say that's realistic, not a bargain. 500hp/500ft/lbs is the same spec as the Viper.

If you're going in that range though, you can't leave out cheaper cars like the $90k Lotus Esprit (390 archaic hp), 415hp 911 Turbo (a steal at $120k) and the $ 90 NSX (a true supercar in spite of its 290 horsepower rating).

It will directly compete with the Ferrari 360 (400hp), Lamborghini Gallardo (490hp). These two cars are virtually alone in their price range and class until the GT goes into full production.

[Opteron]

Originally posted by carbonmotion
Um, we have the Mitsubishi Lancia and Subaru Impreza...those cars are for guys who like to rice stuff. I shop at express for crying out loud... ideally I'd lease a Caddy CTS (best car ever made, beats Mercede's pants off) but my job doesn't pay "that" much even with my dad's special incentive lease plan. We dont get Citreon Xeara and Peguet 206 here. and wait... All alumium pushrod v8s are sweet as hell, so I dont know what you're talking about... its not technologically behind, its just a different design philosophy. Alot of German/Japanese cars are turbo charged to make them comparable to American horsepower...this means the car will have to be treated with care ...like premium fuel and synthetic oil changes... and the turbos will last around 100k miles before dying... so, if you drive the car for 5 years, you're basically going to be garenteed to be in need of a big service...where as I can drive a pushrod for 5 years and never amount to kind of a gigantic maintance costs. besides, just look at the 05 Corevette, it runs on the LS2 which was appluaded by motor trend as the best engine every built in that price range. So please do not insult the technical advancements of the american auto industry.

Just some comparisums for you.
Toyota Corrola Sportivo 1.8L NA 141kW
Holden (GM) Astra 2.0L Turbo 147kW
Subaru WRX (not STI) 2.0L Turbo 168kW
Subaru WRX STI 2.0L Turbo 195kW
Mazda RX-8 1.3L NA rotary 177kW @8200RPM, 200< @10,000RPM

Ford Falcon DOHC 24V, 4.0L, straight 6 Turbo @6.0PSI 220kW @5400 (400kW kits avaliable)
Ford Quad cam 32V, 5.4L ,V8, NA 220-290kW @ 5400RPM
GM Monaro (Pontiac GTO) Push Rod 16V, 5.7L, V8, NA 225-300kW @5700RPM.
(note the smaller quad cam doesn't work as hard yet produces only 10kW less)

Mitsubishi Magna Rallie Art, SOHC (1 per bank) 24V, 3.5L, V6, NA 180kW
GM Holden Commodore Push Rod 12V, 3.8L, V6 Super charged 171kW. (of course can be tweaked)

I will not be part of your ingnorance. I'm sorry you still feel that if you need more power, Just make it bigger.

[iJon]

unless your buying the caddy cts v that impreza sti will whoop it, even the base model probably will.

iJon

[Counterfit]

Originally posted by Opteron
Just some comparisums for you.
Toyota Corrola Sportivo 1.8L NA 141kW
Holden (GM) Astra 2.0L Turbo 147kW
Subaru WRX (not STI) 2.0L Turbo 168kW
Subaru WRX STI 2.0L Turbo 195kW
Mazda RX-8 1.3L NA rotary 177kW @8200RPM, 200< @10,000RPM

Ford Falcon DOHC 24V, 4.0L, straight 6 Turbo @6.0PSI 220kW @5400 (400kW kits avaliable)
Ford Quad cam 32V, 5.4L ,V8, NA 220-290kW @ 5400RPM
GM Monaro (Pontiac GTO) Push Rod 16V, 5.7L, V8, NA 225-300kW @5700RPM.
(note the smaller quad cam doesn't work as hard yet produces only 10kW less)

Mitsubishi Magna Rallie Art, SOHC (1 per bank) 24V, 3.5L, V6, NA 180kW
GM Holden Commodore Push Rod 12V, 3.8L, V6 Super charged 171kW. (of course can be tweaked)

I will not be part of your ingnorance. I'm sorry you still feel that if you need more power, Just make it bigger. I'd like to know where you got those specs, because the US model of the STi has a 2.5L turbo F-4, making 300HP (223.71kW) @6000 rpm.

[carbonmotion]

if you have the cash to spend get youself the new 2004 acura tl. fast as hell and probably the best sound system stock you will hear in a car, also has bluetooth.


I went to a local acura Dealer to test drive a Acura TL... thinking, hum maybe I'll lease this bad boy. I drove the 3.2 Liter 270 HP version with leather seats. First Reaction: OMFG! This leather feels like wiping my ass with silk. Second Reaction: Damn this interior looks better then my Dad's Jaguar XJR! Third Reaction: Whow it works with my Sony Erricson Bluetooth phone! Could it even work with my Powerbook!? Fourth Reaction: The car ride is thousands of percents more smooth then my Jetta VR6 and the acceleration is fast, yet silky. The road noise is null and I think I can smoke a base Mustang at the light. The Sound System is so good, I'm wondering if I could put in in my own current system as a downgrade! Fifth Reaction: Holy ****, the dealer guy said it was $34,850! Nearly $10,000 out of my price range. Wow, what a NICE car... Driving this car can only be compared to the first time I used a mac after a (5 years) life time of PC usage!

Although I can not afford the lease payments on this car, I think the TL has raised the bar on my expectations for a car by many hundreds of feet. To tell you the honest truth, the over all presentation of the car is far better superior to any other car that I've drive/ test driven thus far... including Jaguar XJR, BMW M5, Lexus IS300, Lincoln LS, Caddilac CTS, old TL-S, Pontiac Bonniville, and even the Mercedes C- AMG.

[carbonmotion]

Originally posted by iJon
unless your buying the caddy cts v that impreza sti will whoop it, even the base model probably will.

iJon

Um... iJon, I don't want a sports car (for the 3rd time on this forum) ...I don't know why people keep getting this idea in their heads. I want a nice Touring sedan for around 25-26k... Ofcourse, I'm going in for a lease so if its american, I'm sure one of uncles or my dad can provide a near steal... yes, my dad bought a Chevy Impala SS for 12k USD under his GM employee discount plan for my cousin. I also have uncles working in ford and chrysler, but no forign companies... so an american car around 25k, I can probably get for around 12-13k with employee discounts.

[pmac933]

Originally posted by carbonmotion
The Sound System is so good, I'm wondering if I could put in in my own current system as a downgrade!

The audio system will also play audio DVD's, and can play video DVD's through the navigation screen when parked. I would like to see Acura introduce a rear-wheel drive or all-wheel drive version of the TL. I hear that they have an A-spec version out now as an upgrade.

[iJon]

Originally posted by pmac933
The audio system will also play audio DVD's, and can play video DVD's through the navigation screen when parked. I would like to see Acura introduce a rear-wheel drive or all-wheel drive version of the TL. I hear that they have an A-spec version out now as an upgrade.
being a honda i doubt you will see it, but who knows. I liked the fwd in my old tl. had some nice twisties coming off the line in races.

iJon

[Counterfit]

Originally posted by carbonmotion
I think I can smoke a base Mustang at the light. I could do that on my Schwinn :rolleyes:

[iJon]

Originally posted by Counterfit
I could do that on my Schwinn :rolleyes:
I even think my Liberty would put up a good fight :)

iJon

[krossfyter]

thanks guys.. im learning.


bunch of auto masterbation going on in here.


hope you find the american touring sedan you are looking for.

[rogozhin]

Originally posted by carbonmotion
... I want a nice Touring sedan for around 25-26k... Ofcourse, I'm going in for a lease so if its american, I'm sure one of uncles or my dad can provide a near steal... yes, my dad bought a Chevy Impala SS for 12k USD under his GM employee discount plan for my cousin. I also have uncles working in ford and chrysler, but no forign companies... so an american car around 25k, I can probably get for around 12-13k with employee discounts.

Slightly off-topic, but do GM employees get the company discount on Subarus? I know that GM has a financial involvement in Subaru, and they used their Legacy (or Impreza) platform for the new Saabs (which GM employees can get the discount on), so it would seem reasonable to me to assume that Subarus would fall in the discount category.

If that were the case, how about a Legacy sedan? They're made in Indiana, even though they have a Japanese nameplate... The H6 Boxter engine in the 3.0 is deceptively sporty, too. The only drawback would be the whole premium gas thing...

Just my .02...

[iJon]

Originally posted by rogozhin
Slightly off-topic, but do GM employees get the company discount on Subarus? I know that GM has a financial involvement in Subaru, and they used their Legacy (or Impreza) platform for the new Saabs (which GM employees can get the discount on), so it would seem reasonable to me to assume that Subarus would fall in the discount category.

If that were the case, how about a Legacy sedan? They're made in Indiana, even though they have a Japanese nameplate... The H6 Boxter engine in the 3.0 is deceptively sporty, too. The only drawback would be the whole premium gas thing...

Just my .02...
my legend and tl required the premium gas, but i mostly used the middle grade. unless you are racing or things like that you probably wont notice a difference. the performance you lose will probably not be noticeable and wont justify the money you are saving.

iJon

[cheekyspanky]

Well you can compare the Lamborghini Gallardo, the Ferrari 360 Modena and the Ford GT in terms of performance, but you've got to remember, which would sound the most impressive when someone asks you what make of car you drive!

Gallardo all the way with me, I love the styling, and they're a lot less common, in fact I remember seeing a Diablo once..and thats it, no more Lamborghini's in my memory on British roads. And yet on my walk to university yesterday I saw 2 Ferrari's (one of which was the 360 Spider).

Mazda's are increasingly improving, the Mazda 6 still isn't as good as a Honda Accord (which I think is badged as an Accura in the states), but it's not bad - and it has a BOSE sound system! I went to a presentation by the MD of Mazda Europe about a fortnight ago and he didn't mention Ford at all even when talking about the company's history, until someone asked anyway, and then he referred to Ford as a sister company with their stake in Mazda being 34.4% IIRC as in Japanese law that counts as a controlling share (so much for the sister company bit!!).

*edit* As for a great American car..well I don't know, they don't seem to sell any American cars over here in the UK that I would consider great. The best selling car here is the Focus so I guess that could be considered great at what it does, do you get the ST170 version over there? If so that'd be a good choice with me as a low cost and fast American car and its widely regarded for its class leading handling - although in the States you've probably got softer suspension as they usually change that.

[takao]

because im living in europe im gonna show you the different side of the atlantic ;-)
+>60% of all new cars sold are diesel
some manufactures got even more like audi which sell about 80% diesel
+in most countries you have to pay more car taxes for having more HP
+people like cars which consume less gasoline/diesel
+american cars are often bigger on the outside and because of that not very popular like SUVs (they have to compete against Mercedes G here ..which is a real offroad car)

most popular american car here is chrysler voyager minivan manufactured in europe... nearly all sales are diesel

who would buy a more expensive , gasoline drinking,heavier american car if you can get a audi tdi for less ,which only weights 2/3 and uses 1/3 and only diesel _and_ has 4WD and more torque at 1500 rpm than the american car at 4500 rpm

because of this things nobody is buying a american car here.... they are only luxery items ..they are sold perhaps of looks...

[m4rc]

Can you show us where those figures come from? Maybe it is just Austria, but I can't see Audi selling 80% of their cars as diesels. I'm not saying you are wrong, just really surprised. I know diesels are getting more and more popular, as the old reasons for not buying a diesel are no longer relevant - except they do still rattle a bit. I walked past a very nice top end brand new Mercedes today, think it was an S class. It was diesel, and it was just too noisey, usually you have to strain to hear a stationary Merc with it's engine running. It just didn't seem right, but I'm sure the owner loves the torque, and the money saved on fuel probably pays the running costs of the car!

Marc

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by marccarter
I walked past a very nice top end brand new Mercedes today, think it was an S class. It was diesel, and it was just too noisey, usually you have to strain to hear a stationary Merc with it's engine running. It just didn't seem right, but I'm sure the owner loves the torque, and the money saved on fuel probably pays the running costs of the car!

Marc

Most Mercedes-Benz S-class owners don't give a **** about the people outside their car.

I doubt he cares if you could hear his motor; he couldn't and that'd be all he'd concern himself with.

[jeffy.dee-lux]

Originally posted by cheekyspanky
Well you can compare the Lamborghini Gallardo, the Ferrari 360 Modena and the Ford GT in terms of performance, but you've got to remember, which would sound the most impressive when someone asks you what make of car you drive!


personally, i like my money going into the product and not the product's name.

If you prefer the styling of one car over another, that's perfectly fine. But to pay more for perhaps a lesser car (i've yet to read any direct comparissons of the guallardo and the gt, but i know the gt smokes the modena) just so you can brag to people who don't actually know anything about which is a better car is pretty lame.

Speaking of sports cars i'll never own and which the guy who started this thread isn't interested in at all...
I hope you guys have seen Ford's fully functional, 600hp, $95K Shelby Cobra Concept.
http://www.motortrend.com/autoshows/coverage/112_0401_shelby_gal/

[iJon]

Originally posted by cheekyspanky
Well you can compare the Lamborghini Gallardo, the Ferrari 360 Modena and the Ford GT in terms of performance, but you've got to remember, which would sound the most impressive when someone asks you what make of car you drive!

Gallardo all the way with me, I love the styling, and they're a lot less common, in fact I remember seeing a Diablo once..and thats it, no more Lamborghini's in my memory on British roads. And yet on my walk to university yesterday I saw 2 Ferrari's (one of which was the 360 Spider).

Mazda's are increasingly improving, the Mazda 6 still isn't as good as a Honda Accord (which I think is badged as an Accura in the states), but it's not bad - and it has a BOSE sound system! I went to a presentation by the MD of Mazda Europe about a fortnight ago and he didn't mention Ford at all even when talking about the company's history, until someone asked anyway, and then he referred to Ford as a sister company with their stake in Mazda being 34.4% IIRC as in Japanese law that counts as a controlling share (so much for the sister company bit!!).

*edit* As for a great American car..well I don't know, they don't seem to sell any American cars over here in the UK that I would consider great. The best selling car here is the Focus so I guess that could be considered great at what it does, do you get the ST170 version over there? If so that'd be a good choice with me as a low cost and fast American car and its widely regarded for its class leading handling - although in the States you've probably got softer suspension as they usually change that.
no the accord is not badged as a acura in the states. they ahve made the new accord much better though. acura droped the low end acura tl, added some here and there to the tl type s and made it the only tl you can buy. hoda took most of the features the low end tl had and put it into the accord.

iJon

[Opteron]

Originally posted by Counterfit
I'd like to know where you got those specs, because the US model of the STi has a 2.5L turbo F-4, making 300HP (223.71kW) @6000 rpm.

www.subaru.com.au
all other infomation is freely avaliable on the web, or in motor magizines.

[Opteron]

If you still think the Honda Accord is ahead of the Mazda 6
take a look at this link.
http://www.mazda.com.au/articleZone5.asp?articleZoneID=2799

Basic specs of the new Mazda 6MPS
2.3L DOHC 4-cyl, turbo, producing 206kW
all-wheel drive
360Nm of torque.

http://www.mazda.com.au/articles/images/m6mps_upcoming_hero.jpg

[jeffy.dee-lux]

Originally posted by iJon
no the accord is not badged as a acura in the states. they ahve made the new accord much better though. acura droped the low end acura tl, added some here and there to the tl type s and made it the only tl you can buy. hoda took most of the features the low end tl had and put it into the accord.

iJon

You're both kinda right, we get the honda accord here. The european accord is smaller than ours, honda took this car and turned it into the acura tsx for sale in north america.

Both the tl and tsx are pretty sweet, maybe if the tl is out of your range, the tsx could do instead, i don't know the prices at all, but i'm sure the tsx would be a couple thousand cheaper.

unless i'm crazy and the tsx is a canadian only model, i just found out that the states never got the acura 1.7EL, basically a rebadged civic.

one cool little car that we have up here that you guys don't get is a pretty nice, cheap alternative to the mini, a toyota echo hatchback. When the echo first came out i thought it was the dorkiest car on the road. Now i see these little things gettin souped up all over the place, 20 year olds tossin them all over the place with the crazy four corner wheel geometry. It costs about the equivalent of just under $10K US.
check it out here
http://www.toyota.ca/cgi-bin/WebObjects/WWW.woa/15/wo/Home.Vehicles.Go.EchoHatchback-CFjbOFXBicDIM6F2RAaGLg/0.15?%2e%2e%2fechohatchback%2fintro%2ehtml

[cheekyspanky]

The Toyota Echo is called the Yaris over here, not a bad little car at all, more of a rival to the Ford Ka than the MINI though as it costs a lot less.

With the Honda/Accura differences..is that the same with the NSX then? I've seen that badged as an Accura but it's a Honda over here but do they sell a different version as well?

And talking about braging rights with Lamborghini's Vs Fords, well it's a similar thing with the Lotus Elise Vs the Vauxhall VX220 here in the UK, the Vauxhall has the bigger engine, is more refined, costs less etc, but almost everyone would choose the Lotus due to the badge on the keyfob!

And yes, the Mazda 6 may be available with bigger engines, but that doesn't make it better all in all. The Accord is known to have a better fit and finish quality and is generally more highly regarded, especially the new i-CTDi, which according to Auto Express magazine "offers refinement on a par with that of many petrol models. Couple this with torquey power, sleek styling, superbly packaged interior and fine handling, and you've got a new class leader". And they had that really cool domino effect advert..

The car i'm looking forward to trying is the Smart ForFour which goes on sale here in September and is launched in the US in 2006, it's not going to be released as a diesel initially but one will come out for it eventually, I think the initial engines are 1.1, 1.3 and 1.5 Litres. I'm in the market for a car that size and it's going to be that or a Renault Megane, roll on september when I can afford it!

The Smart ForFour..
http://www.portsmouthphotos.co.uk/forfour.jpg

[takao]

Originally posted by marccarter
Can you show us where those figures come from? Maybe it is just Austria, but I can't see Audi selling 80% of their cars as diesels.

i just found the numbers for 'new sold cars' in austria of the year 2003. the were released by some automobile club

they are on a average of
2003: 71 %
1990: 23-27 %

the numbers are different thorugh europe
belgium 67,4%
france 67,1%
germany is below the average with 41 percent but diesel sales are increasing every year across europe their diesel numbers of 1997 were like 14,3 %
some other statistic said that 50% percent of all sold diesels were german cars in europe

and for audi: their diesel sales are rather high because of history: 1989 they invented the TDI
in germany they have about 10% more diesel sales than other manufactures

edit: in other countries in europe the percentage of diesel sales are low in sweden & ireland: ~10 %

[mischief]

Here's a few things that need to be remembered when comparing cars by their torque specs, engine sizes, etc.

1: In the USA and most other countries some form of Governor is used to reduce acceleration to roughly the same curve on ALL vehicles for two major reasons:

So law enforcement can catch you, even in your new Ford GT40(3).:rolleyes:

So there are less jerkoff-over-accellerating-to-impress-someone induced accidents.


2: Compare the Power to weight ratio between cars. the torque-to weight ration on little cars like the Acura Integra/GS and Toyota Celica (2000-current) is quite sufficient. The Stock base-model Mustang's Power to weight isn't much more and it's Governing just reduces it to a loud gas-guzzler.


3: TEST DRIVE THE CARS DAMMIT! If you've ever sat in a (now discontinued) Firebird/Camaro with that huge V8 you know that accelleration means almost nothing when you can't see out of the damn car for the poorly designed cockpit/mirrors/tinting.

4: Don't make blanket statements. Not only do most companies own each other's brands but different companies do different things well:

GM: Really excellent pro-grade trucks and vans. They own so many brands (including a stake in Toyota) that there's at least ten good cars.

Ford: See GM with the following alteration: Only the Mazda cars, Law-enforcement designated sedans, NASCAR decended cars and non-Ford/Mercury vehicles that aren't Pro-grade trucks/vans get consistently good reviews. Their cockpits suck unless you buy a Euro or Japanese labelled brand.

Daimler: Very good high-end. Own enough brands to have at least one from each that's driveable.

Honda, Ferrari, Lamborgini,TRV, etc. Each does what they do extremely well.



The bottom line is this:

Realize that Torque means nearly nothing if it's Governed except you burn through breaks/gas in a hurry if you're around town a lot.

Drive a bunch of cars from a wide group of companies before buying.

Check the Consumer Reports! Some of the "Cool Muscle Cars" from Ford and GM got atrocious service and safety reviews.

SUV's and Light trucks roll over when maneuvering at high speed. Period. This only gets worse with lift kits and big tires.

[pseudobrit]

Originally posted by mischief
1: In the USA and most other countries some form of Governor is used to reduce acceleration to roughly the same curve on ALL vehicles for two major reasons:

So law enforcement can catch you, even in your new Ford GT40(3).:rolleyes:

So there are less jerkoff-over-accellerating-to-impress-someone induced accidents.

Nonsense. I'm calling ************.

The only governors on vehicles are for top speed. There's simply no such thing as an acceleration governor. Otherwise 0-60 times would be identical for every car on the market.

Law enforcement will catch you simply because you can't outrun the radio.

[job]

Originally posted by pseudobrit
Law enforcement will catch you simply because you can't outrun the radio.

http://forums.tactical-ops.to/images/smilies/rofl.gif

It might not have been meant as something funny, but I laughed when I read it.

[mischief]

Originally posted by pseudobrit
Nonsense. I'm calling ************.

The only governors on vehicles are for top speed. There's simply no such thing as an acceleration governor. Otherwise 0-60 times would be identical for every car on the market.

Law enforcement will catch you simply because you can't outrun the radio.

Touche.

However: You'll find that the vast majority of cars designed for speed don't have their computers set to "optimum" performance. I see this as another form of "Governing".

There's also the issue of skill and transmission type. A skilled driver in an otherwise "mediocre" car (in terms of performance on paper) can drop most bozos in muscle cars hands down.

I stick by my initial conclusion: test drive a few of these before citing opinions. A stupefyingly powerful engine in a car with a suck interface still sux. My experience with american muscle cars was this:

Mustang v8 is overpowered and otherwise poorly designed. On the Manual transmission you're OK as long as you like chirping your tires when the engine's cold. On the Auto it's rediculous! you have to nearly stand on the breaks to keep it stopped at a light. The cockpit is an ergonomic disaster with nearly everything in exactly the wrong place. Visibility is bad... not frightening but bad.

Firebird/Camaro was more fun in terms of the engine but far more rediculous. Getting to freeway speed is scary-fast for a car with no visible edges. Cruising at 80 MPH doesn't even touch sixth (yes, sixth) gear, which means you'd have to be on the Autobahn to really use the tranny's "cruising" gear. Visibility is FRIGHTENING. Driving one of these cars is like being an Apollo astronaught: You can see only what's in front of you with no idea where your craft ends and the world begins and your eyeballs come out the back of your head if you're no careful. Needless to say that huge v8 makes conversations IMPOSSIBLE without a bullhorn.

Realize that the radio isn't the only difference, though it is a profound one. Law-enforcement vehicles not only lack a Governor, they're "chipped" differently. a Police issue Ford V8 will ALWAYS out-accelerate a street-legal stock Ford v8 (with computer). Not to mention that the most skilled drivers on the road for high-speed are the CHP and their State and Provincial counterparts.


There's one other important thing to mention about my bias. I live in Nothern California. The roads are windy,curvy, wet, uneven, foggy, often narrow and frequently mountainous to boot. Small, low-mass cars have a distinct advantage out here. I consistently drop bozos in American muscle cars on the freeway because my Acura is smaller and needs no room to accelerate/decelerate. Torque is actually a liability in Traffic out here... better to have control and visibility.

[m4rc]

Torque dosn't just mean 0-60 you know. A car with plenty of Torque can accelerate mid band ie. 50-70mph. This is a useful safety thing, as if you try and overtake in a car that does 50-70 in 20 seconds, you are more likely to not make it than in a car that just accelerates.

I prefer to have more mid band than 0-60. Many times I have been raced away from the lights, only to overtake the jerk 2 minutes later as he struggles up a hill.

Marc

[jeffy.dee-lux]

Originally posted by marccarter
Torque dosn't just mean 0-60 you know. A car with plenty of Torque can accelerate mid band ie. 50-70mph. This is a useful safety thing, as if you try and overtake in a car that does 50-70 in 20 seconds, you are more likely to not make it than in a car that just accelerates.

I prefer to have more mid band than 0-60. Many times I have been raced away from the lights, only to overtake the jerk 2 minutes later as he struggles up a hill.

Marc

actually that really depends on where the engine gets its torque. Some cars, like the mazda rx-8 for example, have a pretty constant torque all the way from idle up to its 8000 rpm red line, making for a linear increase in horsepower, since horsepower is basically a product of force times velocity (or turning force times angular speed). Other cars have a peak torque over a much smaller range of rpm, meaning that lots of shifting has to be done to keep the engine running at the ideal speed in order to get good performance out of it.

[iGav]

Originally posted by jeffy.dee-lux
actually that really depends on where the engine gets its torque. Some cars, like the mazda rx-8 for example, have a pretty constant torque all the way from idle up to its 8000 rpm red line, making for a linear increase in horsepower, since horsepower is basically a product of force times velocity (or turning force times angular speed). Other cars have a peak torque over a much smaller range of rpm, meaning that lots of shifting has to be done to keep the engine running at the ideal speed in order to get good performance out of it.

this is the difference in approach between Ferrari, Porsche and BMW who go down the reduced weight and high revs for BHP and overall performance where as the likes of Merc/AMG go for the high Torque outputs to shift their ever increasing weight.

The Mazda RX-8 suffers from a lack of torque throughout it's rev range though, and that's the main problem with it's Wankel, producing any useful max torque @ 5500RPM and peak BHP at 8200rpm really isn't that user friendly in anything other than fast A roads or track conditions and will result in many a TDI whooping you in everyday life unless you ultimately are willing to thrash your car everytime.

Half the fun of Diesel driving is it's high torque and low redline characteristics, the average Diesel redlines between 3500 and 4000rpm, and with many of them producing max torque between 1500rpm and 2000rpm, meaning that in the majority of day to day driving when you punch it, the high torque requires less changing, and the low redline means that you're never far from the ideal range.

[jeffy.dee-lux]

Originally posted by iGAV


Half the fun of Diesel driving is it's high torque and low redline characteristics, the average Diesel redlines between 3500 and 4000rpm, and with many of them producing max torque between 1500rpm and 2000rpm, meaning that in the majority of day to day driving when you punch it, the high torque requires less changing, and the low redline means that you're never far from the ideal range.

and then there are electric motors which get their peak torque (which is also usually quite high) at just above 0rpm. The new prius gets only like 110hp or something, but gets a tire smoking, practically instantaneous 295lb-ft of torque. It slows down at higher speeds like around 40mph when the gas engine kicks in, but off the line, this car really pushes hard. Meaning that this should be a sweet ride around the city. I can't wait to see the highlander with the hybrid drive that's basically twice the size of the prius'. toyota's also talking about bringing the supra back to the US, in 300hp hybrid form. i think i saw that in this month's road and track.

[iGav]

Originally posted by jeffy.dee-lux
and then there are electric motors which get their peak torque (which is also usually quite high) at just above 0rpm. The new prius gets only like 110hp or something, but gets a tire smoking, practically instantaneous 295lb-ft of torque. It slows down at higher speeds like around 40mph when the gas engine kicks in, but off the line, this car really pushes hard. Meaning that this should be a sweet ride around the city. I can't wait to see the highlander with the hybrid drive that's basically twice the size of the prius'. toyota's also talking about bringing the supra back to the US, in 300hp hybrid form. i think i saw that in this month's road and track.

BMW actually have something similar to this in development and looking to release this in the next few years...

Basically a conventional combustion engine with electric motor 'boosters' that are charged instantly when the car is started, and when required double the torque output for several seconds, according to Autocar mag, it can half midrange acceleration times in an X5 but work at any speed.... so imagine the possibilities in an M3/M4/M5 :D the beauty of this system is also once the 'boost' power has been used, it recharges instantly and you get second and third and fourth wind... heheheh

[Counterfit]

Originally posted by jeffy.dee-lux
i think i saw that in this month's road and track. Which issue would that be? Feb '04 or March?

[jeffy.dee-lux]

Originally posted by Counterfit
Which issue would that be? Feb '04 or March?


i'm not sure, i think march, i don't have it. it says something about new sports cars or something on the front.

[carbonmotion]

You may have a valid point, but I garentee that a RX-8 will woop a Golf TDI or Jetta TDI on a from stoplight to stoplight race.

Originally posted by iGAV
this is the difference in approach between Ferrari, Porsche and BMW who go down the reduced weight and high revs for BHP and overall performance where as the likes of Merc/AMG go for the high Torque outputs to shift their ever increasing weight.

The Mazda RX-8 suffers from a lack of torque throughout it's rev range though, and that's the main problem with it's Wankel, producing any useful max torque @ 5500RPM and peak BHP at 8200rpm really isn't that user friendly in anything other than fast A roads or track conditions and will result in many a TDI whooping you in everyday life unless you ultimately are willing to thrash your car everytime.

Half the fun of Diesel driving is it's high torque and low redline characteristics, the average Diesel redlines between 3500 and 4000rpm, and with many of them producing max torque between 1500rpm and 2000rpm, meaning that in the majority of day to day driving when you punch it, the high torque requires less changing, and the low redline means that you're never far from the ideal range.

[takao]

Originally posted by carbonmotion
You may have a valid point, but I garentee that a RX-8 will woop a Golf TDI or Jetta TDI on a from stoplight to stoplight race.

yeah comparing a sportscar against a normal family car...

the RX-8 uses three times more fuel... an costs more too...and is smaller....
Audi has a 180 PS TDi for their A4 quattro since 1999... how old is the rx-8 ?
show me a 180 HP gasoline car which uses around 6-7 liter ? ever drove on a german autobahn ? german police uses porsche 911, BMW m3s as cars because without they would have no chance against those.. diesels...
you get overhauled by diesels at 140 miles per hour

and btw. ever saw an electro-dragster racing ?... they are faster than kersion-jet-engine-driven dragster...by _far_ on same distance

[carbonmotion]

Originally posted by takao
yeah comparing a sportscar against a normal family car...

the RX-8 uses three times more fuel... an costs more too...and is smaller....
Audi has a 180 PS TDi for their A4 quattro since 1999... how old is the rx-8 ?
show me a 180 HP gasoline car which uses around 6-7 liter ? ever drove on a german autobahn ? german police uses porsche 911, BMW m3s as cars because without they would have no chance against those.. diesels...
you get overhauled by diesels at 140 miles per hour

and btw. ever saw an electro-dragster racing ?... they are faster than kersion-jet-engine-driven dragster...by _far_ on same distance


erm ...cars are confusing... i''ll just take your word for it. Um, im thinking about returning my lease and buying a used M3 on a loan!

[MacBandit]

From a mechanics view point coming from several people I know 20 years experience working on all makes and models of cars.

Toyotas are the finest built most reliable cars on the road today period. They may not be the jazziest, fastest, or most luxurious. Though the Lexus models come very close on the last point. They are on the other hand the cheapest to own in the long run if you plan on putting 300, 400, or more thousand miles on them.

[carbonmotion]

Originally posted by MacBandit
From a mechanics view point coming from several people I know 20 years experience working on all makes and models of cars.

Toyotas are the finest built most reliable cars on the road today period. They may not be the jazziest, fastest, or most luxurious. Though the Lexus models come very close on the last point. They are on the other hand the cheapest to own in the long run if you plan on putting 300, 400, or more thousand miles on them.

Whats your take on a used IS300 vs a used M3? My friend drives a Dinan M3, its tight as f---